1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of I Heart Radio 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky. Listener, discretion is advised, hey, friends, 3 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: before we get started with this live episode that we 4 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: recorded in New Hampshire a couple of weeks back. I 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: just wanted to hop on and sincerely thank you all 6 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: so much for the success of season one of Haunted Road. 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: We are hard at work on season two, and new 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: episodes begin on January five. So in the meantime, follow 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: me on social media at Amy Bruney on just about everything, 10 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: or you can join us on a Strange Escapes trip 11 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: by heading to Strange dash escapes dot com. We have 12 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: a ton planned for, including a European cruise that I 13 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: am especially excited about. Also, new episodes of Kindred Spirits, 14 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: my TV show on Travel Channel and Discovery Plus, start 15 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: on December. So have a wonderful season and cheers two 16 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: lots of spookiness in so enjoy. Oh my goodness. All right, 17 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: can everyone hear me? Okay, before we get started, I 18 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: want to warn you that some of the accounts and 19 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: experiences I am going to relate to you are absolutely 20 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: horrifying and disturbing. Usually usually when listening to Haunted Road, 21 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: there is a pause or fast forward button. You all 22 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: don't have that option, but I promise we won't judge 23 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: you if you need to leave at any point. But 24 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: this is a live recording, so please don't slam the 25 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: door on the way out. That being said, I have 26 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: an apology to make. On the season one finale of 27 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: Haunted Road. During the interview with Adam Burry and John Tenney, 28 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: Adam brought up the story of a painting here at 29 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,519 Speaker 1: the Mount Washington Hotel where we are recording right now, 30 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: and I said I would tell the story of the 31 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: painting at the end of the episode. But guess what 32 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: I didn't do. So the episode was released and immediately 33 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: my social media went wild with folks dying to know 34 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: the story of the painting. So here, actually, sitting inside 35 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: the Mount Washington Hotel, I will tell you so. First 36 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: of all, if you have not listened to the season 37 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: finale of Haunted Roads, stop right now and head back 38 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: to season one, episode twelve, then rejoin me here for this, 39 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: especially macab Tail. Except for all of you sitting here, 40 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:49,559 Speaker 1: you are stuck hanging just off the lobby of the resort, here, 41 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: just inside the hallway. To the right of the front desk, 42 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: you will see two large paintings. One is Caroline Stickney 43 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: and one is Joseph Stickney, the man who built this 44 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: hotel and died just a year later. There they are 45 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: regally looking down at you as you pass, an homage 46 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: a reminder of their prominence in the history of the hotel. 47 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: Except there is something very very off there. In April 48 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: of seven years before the Mount Washington Hotel was built, 49 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: a horrible bank robbery took place in Somersworth, New Hampshire. 50 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 1: The cashier, a gentleman seventy years of age, was brutally 51 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: murdered by the bank robber. A description of how he 52 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: was found is described in a clipping from the United 53 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: Opinion as on the floor, in a great pool of 54 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: blood was the body of the cashier. His head had 55 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: been nearly severed from the trunk. The head was marked 56 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: with several deep gashes made by a blackjack, and the 57 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: skull was fractured. The body was covered with blood, and 58 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: the walls and furniture bore additional evidence of the terrible deed. 59 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: It could be seen at a glance that the cashier 60 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: had not died without fighting desperately for the Book's chairs 61 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: and other furniture were scattered over the floor behind the counter. 62 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: Physicians who have examined the body say it is apparent 63 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: that the victim was pounded to death after being rendered unconscious. 64 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: Another fact brought out by the autopsy is that the 65 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: weapon used to cut the victim's throat was a medium 66 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: sized knife, the blade of which was very dull and 67 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 1: left a deep, but irregular wound. The jugular vein was 68 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: severed and the wound extended from one side of the 69 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: head across the throat to a point under the other ear. Now, 70 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: the bank robber was eventually caught. His name was Joseph Kelly. 71 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: The Somersworth police caught onto him and learned he had 72 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: traveled north. They traced his movement to a town in Quebec. There, 73 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: he had paid a hotel keeper ten dollars in gold 74 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: for a woman's dress and left the hotel wearing the dress, 75 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: saying that he wanted to surprise his wife, who lived 76 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: in Montreal. Kelly was found in a Montreal brothel, sitting 77 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: between two prostitutes and still wearing the dress. He was 78 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: subsequently arrested and jailed for his crime. But what of 79 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: the bank cash here, Well, it turns out the bank 80 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: cashier's name was Joseph Stickney. Decades later, the hotel commissioned 81 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: portraits of Caroline Stickney and Joseph Stickney to hang in 82 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: the lobby, except the artist somehow got his hands on 83 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: a rendering of the bank cashier, not the Joseph Stickney 84 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: who built this hotel. So the portrait you see in 85 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: the lobby is not of the wealthy business tycoon Joseph Stickney, 86 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: but of the seventy years old murdered bank cashier, Joseph Stickney. 87 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: So now that we've cleared that up, and speaking of 88 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: crimes and criminals, let's take a journey to another notoriously 89 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: haunted location, a place not nearly as charming or bougie 90 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: as where we are now. Friends, we are headed to 91 00:05:53,680 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: Eastern State Penitentiary. I'm Amy Brune, and this is haunted road. 92 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: In sevente Dr Benjamin Rush founded the Philadelphia Society for 93 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: Alleviating the Miseries of Public Prisons, the first prison reform 94 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: group in the world. Benjamin Franklin joined the group on 95 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: August thirteen. Just two years later, Dr Rush oversaw the 96 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: formation of penitentiary house with a capacity of sixteen cells. 97 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: It was built in the Walnut Street Jail in Philadelphia, 98 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: and an experiment with day and night solitary confinement began. Dr. 99 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: Benjamin Rush and others in the Society hoped to outlaw 100 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: public punishments and replace the current overcrowded and corrupt prison 101 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: system with a system of private solitary confinement. Rush proposed 102 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: a radical idea to build a true penitentiary, a prison 103 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: design to inspire j new and regret and penitence in 104 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: the hearts of people convicted of crimes. From the inception 105 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: of the Society in the late seventeen eighties, it took 106 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: more than three decades before Eastern State Penitentiary was constructed. 107 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: The group of Philadelphians who conceived and designed Eastern State 108 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: Penitentiary were working within the framework of the newly industrializing cities. 109 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: Formal institutions of many sorts were being developed to replace 110 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: the informal methods of managing community life. Everything from banking 111 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: to the education of the deaf was becoming specialized, professionalized, 112 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: and controlled. These leaders promoted the development of orphanages, almshouses, schools, 113 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: and cemeteries. ESP then takes some of its importance from 114 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: the fact that it was an integral part of an 115 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: urban renovation that included many new facilities for community improvement. 116 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: After Russia, society spent years advocating for a new way 117 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: of imprisonment beyond the seventeen ninety Walnut Straight Jail. The 118 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania legislature approved funding to build the Eastern State Penitentiary 119 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: in eighty one. Once construction was greenlit by the state, 120 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: four hopeful architects submitted their designs for consideration. Of those, 121 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: John Havelind, a British architect who had settled in Philadelphia, 122 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: won the commission. He received a one hundred dollar prize 123 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: for his design. Rival, architect William Strickland, whose design had 124 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,679 Speaker 1: been rejected, was chosen to oversee the construction. Strickland, however, 125 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: was fired from this position the following year, and Haveland 126 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: was hired in his place to oversee the construction of 127 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: his initial design. Havelan saw the project through to its 128 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: completion in eighteen thirty six. The bones of the building 129 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 1: were shaped to reflect the religious aspirations of its creators, 130 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: Although modern these were still sparse and austere spaces. Prisoners 131 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: could choose between reading the Bible or honest work like 132 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: shoemaking or weaving. The interior of the penitentiary resembles a 133 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: church with its thirty foot barrel vaulted hallways and tall 134 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: arch windows. In contrast, the exterior is a menacing medieval 135 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: Gothic facade built to intimidate that ironically implies that physical 136 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: punishment took place behind those grim exteriors. Virtually all prisons 137 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: designed in the eighteen hundreds were based on one of 138 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: two systems, New York State's Auburn system or the Pennsylvania 139 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: system embodied by the Eastern State Penitentiary. During the century 140 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: following Eastern States construction, more than three hundred prisons in 141 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: South America, Europe, Russia, China, Japan, and across the British 142 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: Empire were based on its plan. Robert vo of the 143 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: Philadelphia Society, who had been extensively involved in the planning 144 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: of the penitentiary, summarized the basic principles of the system. One, 145 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: Prisoners shouldn't be treated, not vengefully, but in ways designed 146 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: to convince them that through hard and selective forms of suffering, 147 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: they could change their lives too. To prevent the prison 148 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: from being a corrupting influence. Solitary confinement of all inmates 149 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: should be practiced. Three. In his seclusion, the offender was 150 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: to have an opportunity to reflect on his transgressions so 151 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: that he might repent for Solitary confinement is a punishing 152 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: discipline because man is by nature a social being. And five. 153 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: Solitary confinement is economical because prisoners do not need long 154 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: periods of time to benefit from the penitential experience, Fewer 155 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 1: keepers are required, and the costs of clothing are reduced. 156 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: The strong faith in reformation coupled with deterrence is very evident. 157 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: Eastern State Penitentiary was the world's first true penitentiary, a 158 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: prison designed to inspire penitence or true regret in the 159 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 1: hearts of prisoners. ESP refined the revolutionary system of separate 160 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,359 Speaker 1: incarceration first pioneered at the Walnut Street Jail, which emphasized 161 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: principles of reform rather than punishment. The penitentiary originally consisted 162 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: of seven cell blocks that radiated from a central surveillance rotunda. 163 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,199 Speaker 1: In this concept, each prisoner had their own private cell, 164 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: centrally heated with running water, a flush toilet, and a 165 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: skylight adjacent to Each cell was a private outdoor exercise 166 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: yard contained by a ten foot wall. These blocks may 167 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: represent the first modern building in the United States. The 168 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: physical design of the structure was as much of a 169 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: marvel as were the inward methods. The building has been 170 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: expanded numerous times, but the earliest parts of the construction 171 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: were the first seven blocks. Some interesting context, This modern 172 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: design was particularly impressive for its time. Even the White House, 173 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 1: with its new occupant Andrew Jackson, had no running water 174 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: and was still heated by coal burning stoves. In eighteen 175 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: thirty six, the initial footprint was finally completed. ESP covered 176 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: an area of eleven acres with state of the art plumbing, 177 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: sewage systems, and four hundred fifty centrally heated cells. The 178 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: whole endeavor had cost nearly seven hundred eighty thousand dollars, 179 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: making it one of the most expensive buildings of its 180 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: day in the United States. According to the Official Data's 181 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: inflation calculator, seven thousand dollars in eighteen thirty six would 182 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: be over twenty three million dollars today. In the eighteen seventies, 183 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: four additional cell box minus the original attached exercise space, 184 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: were added in between those already constructed, so when Eastern 185 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:35,959 Speaker 1: State originally opened, it was designed to hold two hundred 186 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: fifty prisoners. In eighteen twenty nine, the first prisoners arrived. 187 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: Two years later, in eighteen thirty one, the first female 188 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: prisoners arrived. According to travel writer Quinn Mosby, when the 189 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: earliest prisoners were brought into the facility, they were examined 190 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 1: and given a number. At that point they lost their humanity. 191 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: The hood was placed over a prisoner's head as guards 192 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: add them to their cell. They were locked in their 193 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: cells for the entire day, fed through a slot in 194 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: the door, and only given a half hour to exercise. 195 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: The institutional dedication to silence was thorough and complete, at 196 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: least in the early years. According to Mosby, the most 197 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: devastating blow was the sound of silence. Prisoners were not 198 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 1: allowed to speak, sing or hum. This was a place 199 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: of absolute quiet. Some prisoners were gagged with a metal 200 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: tongue clamp if they did not abide by the code 201 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: of silence. There was one death from cholera in eighteen 202 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: thirty two, and in the nineties many inmates died from tuberculosis. Honestly, 203 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: the number of deaths that took place there from suffering 204 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: from chronic and untreated conditions throughout the years is staggering. 205 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: Along those lines, I'm not sure that it's possible to 206 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: overstate just how isolated and bleak early life for ESP 207 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,719 Speaker 1: prisoners truly was. Not only were they hooded during the 208 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: few moments outside of their cells, but they were required 209 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: to be silent for the majority of their days. No 210 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: mail was allowed in or out, and visiting hours were 211 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: non existent. Inside their cells, prisoners only saw light from 212 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: the skylight dubbed the Eye of God talk about a 213 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: looming presents. Each cell was fitted with feed doors so 214 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: prisoners could eat their three square meals a day, and 215 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: total isolation. Guards wore fabric over their shoes so prisoners 216 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: would not hear their footsteps. The punishments put in place 217 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: at ESP were horrifying. There was a water bath. If 218 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: a prisoner transgressed, they were dunked in icy water before 219 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: they were hung on a wall overnight. The frigid air 220 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: would cause skin to ice over before morning, and many 221 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: prisoners didn't make it through. There was also something called 222 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: the mad chair in the early years of ESP. Contemporary 223 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: doctors believed mental illness spread through the body through circulation. 224 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: Following their logic, restricting blood flow would theoretically cure the 225 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: mental anguish, they designed what they called the Mad Chair. 226 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: It was created so inmates could be strapped in so 227 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: tightly it was literally impossible to move a muscle. They 228 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: would be forced to sit in this chair for days 229 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: without food. Sometimes prisoners limbs were amputated after they were 230 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: released from the device because the damage was so extensive. 231 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: I horror dot Com claims that the Mad chair was 232 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: also in the pit known as the Whole, an underground 233 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: cell block beneath Cellblock fourteen, where there was no light 234 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: and inmates were strapped tightly to a chair, restricting any 235 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: movement for days, with periods of starvation. Some prisoners, once 236 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: removed from the restraints, were permanently crippled. There was a 237 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: punishment known as the iron gag for this punishment, and 238 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: inmates hands were tied behind the back and strapped to 239 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: an iron collar in the mouth so that any movement 240 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: caused the tongue to tear and bleed profusely. In the 241 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: earliest days of esp suspicion or rose regarding the treatment 242 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: of prisoners. Among other charges, the most serious were those 243 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:10,359 Speaker 1: brought against warden Samuel would for cruel and unusual punishment. Specifically, 244 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: Wood was investigated for the untimely death of inmate Matthias McComsey, 245 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: who was placed in an iron gag as punishment for talking. 246 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: Mccomsey's hands were bound behind his back and shackled as 247 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: the gag was forced to be placed over his tongue, 248 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: while the iron bar was attached by chains to the 249 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: shackles on his wrists. One hour later, maccomsey was found 250 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: dead in his cell, and though the penitentiaries doctor classified 251 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: his death as apoplexy or stroke, multiple witnesses contended his 252 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: death was the result of being placed in the gag. 253 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: Despite the investigation by police, Wood was not found guilty 254 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: of cruel and unusual punishment and served as warden there 255 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: until his retirement. Obviously, with conditions such as these, there 256 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: were escaped attempts. In eighteen thirty two, the first prisoner escaped, 257 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: an inmate who served as the warden's waiter, lowered himself 258 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: from the roof of the front building once captured. This 259 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: inmate escaped in the same manner in eighteen thirty seven. 260 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: In July ninety three, Leo Callaghan and five accomplices armed 261 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: with pistols, successfully scaled the east wall after holding up 262 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: a group of unarmed guards. More than one hundred inmates 263 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: escaped from Eastern State during its one hundred forty two 264 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: years of active use, but Callaghan is the only one 265 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: never to be recaptured. All of Callaghan's accomplices were apprehended, 266 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: including one that made it as far as Honolulu. In 267 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: July nineteen thirty four, Williams Spiked Conway and four other 268 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: inmates escaped ESP by swimming half a mile through the sewer. 269 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,959 Speaker 1: Conway and two others were caught within an hour, and 270 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: the other two got electric chair for murder, while Conway 271 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: died by suicide. In nineteen forty three, Victor Babe Andreoli 272 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: escaped from ESP, apparently by hiding in a delivery truck 273 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: that was leaving the prison. Several weeks later, the police 274 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: cut up to Andreoli and Chester, Pennsylvania diner, where he 275 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: was shot dead. In nineteen twelve, prisoners escaped through a 276 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: tunnel designed and built by prison plaster worker Clarence Kleindist. 277 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: The tunnel was ninety seven ft long and probably took 278 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: over a year to dig. The tunnels and let prisoners 279 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: out at fair amount and twenty second. At the time, 280 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: Kleindens had two extra years left on his sentence, but 281 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: received ten more years once he was caught. Six of 282 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: the group were captured immediately, with one being shot in 283 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: the process. Five of them were caught while in the tunnel. 284 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: Another five are grabbed while crawling out. After all but 285 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: one was recovered and returned to ESP they were put 286 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: in solitary confinement in the hole and given only bread 287 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 1: and water and doctor visits each day. They stayed there, 288 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: one in each space, not collectively, for thirty days at 289 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 1: the doctor's judgment. As time went on, Eastern State was evolving. 290 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: Warden Michael Cassidy added the first additional cellblox in the 291 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 1: eighteen seventies and eighteen nineties. These late Victorian blocks weren't 292 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: terribly different from the first iteration, but they did not 293 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: include an attached exercise yard. Prisoners were still hooded for transportation, 294 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: but they were at least given eye holes. During this period. 295 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: Instead of exercising in separate spaces, they did so in community, 296 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: and by the eighteen nineties about half of all prisoners 297 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: had to sellmate. By nineteen twelve, a prisoner newspaper, The Umpire, 298 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: ran a monthly roster of intra penitentiary baseball league scores. 299 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 1: The separation of prisoners was eventually amended, and ESP became 300 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: a more standard prison known then as the New York System, 301 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: in which inmates shared cells and were permitted to communicate. 302 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: In January, inmates were finally allowed to eat together. Table 303 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 1: cloths were provided on Sundays and holidays, and the holiday 304 00:19:55,160 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: decorations were described as a morale building factor. The this 305 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: new system, the New York or Auburn system, was one 306 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: of harsh punishment, and it soon took precedence over the 307 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: repentant model of ESP. The Auburn model construed incarceration is 308 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: punishment and terror in order to break the spirit of 309 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: the recalcitrant individual, close surveillance and corporal punishment would force 310 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: the prisoner to conform to the desired readiness and installation 311 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: of moral values. In nine the penitentiary administration produced a 312 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: silent movie to celebrate the building's centennial. The film focuses 313 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: on the recent changes made to the building. It shows 314 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: new factory style weaving shops, the commercial grade bakery and 315 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: kitchen staff by dozens of prisoners. Twenty four hours a day, 316 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: and new guard towers with searchlights and sirens. And how 317 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: about some of the more famous prisoners that were in 318 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,719 Speaker 1: esp A one of a kind prisoner was brought in 319 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: August of nineteen twenty four, Pep the cat murdering Dog, 320 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: had his mug shot taken and was assigned prison Nursey 321 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: two five nine. Pep allegedly murdered the governor's wife's cat. However, 322 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: the reason for PEPs incarceration remains the subject of some debate. 323 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: A newspaper article reported that the governor donated his own 324 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: dog to the prison to increase inmate morale. In nineteen 325 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: fifty four, a notorious criminal and perhaps well liked prisoner died. Morris. 326 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: The Rabbi Bolber was at EESP serving a life sentence 327 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: as a member of an arsenic murder ring located in 328 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: Philadelphia called the Veterans Witch doctor and compounder of Charms. 329 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: Bulber was one of the leaders of the group. They 330 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,959 Speaker 1: appealed to women who are willing to murder husbands in 331 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: order to collect on their husband's insurance policies. Between nineteen 332 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: twenty nine and nineteen thirty, a Mr Alphonse Campone spent 333 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: eight months in a relatively luxurious cell. An article in 334 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: the Philadelphia Public Jer describes Capone's cell. The whole room 335 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 1: was suffused in the glow of a desk lamp, which 336 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: stood on a polished desk. On the once grim walls 337 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: of the penal chamber hung tasteful paintings, and the strains 338 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: of a waltz were being omitted by a powerful cabinet 339 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: radio receiver of handsome design and fine finish. At this time, 340 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: Capone was worth over forty million dollars approximately five hundred 341 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: and fifty million dollars by today's standards, and had associations 342 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: with over seven hundred murders he could afford to call 343 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: in a few favors. I think Capone also controlled the 344 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: sale of liquor to over ten thousand speakeasies. While in 345 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: his relatively luxurious cell, though al Capone was apparently plagued 346 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: by a spirit named Jimmy. He would let out blood 347 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: curdling streams in the darkness, begging for Jimmy to leave 348 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: him alone. Many people believe Jimmy may have been the 349 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: spirit of Jimmy Clark, one of the men killed by 350 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: Capone's execution orders. In the Saint Valentine's massacre. Even after 351 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: his release from ESP, Capone was still hounded by this spirit. 352 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: So out of desperation, Capone even hired a medium, but 353 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: that didn't seem to work. Now, some scholars and writers 354 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: make the connection to late stage syphilis, when the disease 355 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: affects the brain and can lead to hallucinations and insanity. 356 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: After his imprisonment, Capone spent his days at home in 357 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: pajamas and having imaginary conversations with long dead colleagues or 358 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: enemies in his backyard delusions. The entire family went along with. 359 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: At age forty eight, Capone died on January seven of 360 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: a stroke. Unrest and division was rampant at ESP over 361 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 1: the years. In nineteen thirty three, angry inmates set fires 362 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: to their cells and destroyed workshops in a riot. There 363 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: was another riot the following year. Due to low wages, 364 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: inmates short circuited electrical outlets and started fires and caused 365 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: other disturbances. Warden Smith put down the riot with a 366 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: wrong show of force. In nineteen sixty one, an inmate 367 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: trick to guard into opening the cell of another inmate. 368 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: With the cells opened, the inmates overpowered the guard and 369 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: began the largest riot in the prison's history. Several hours later, 370 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: a large force of police, guards and state troopers reclaimed 371 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: the prison. The riot fuel discussions to close Eastern State. 372 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: Other factors contributed to the desire to close ESP. Changing 373 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: social values and incarceration practices factored in, as did more 374 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: pragmatic concerns. At that point, the aged building had so 375 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: many electrical and mechanical problems it was too expensive to restore. 376 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: After closing in nineteen seventy one, and before preservation efforts 377 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: began in nineteen ninety one, Eastern State was left to vandals, 378 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:52,959 Speaker 1: nature and stray cats in ESP once again opened its doors, 379 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: but this time as a museum, so Eastern State Pen 380 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: only host tourists now and has been designated a National 381 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: History or Landmark since nineteen sixty five. With all of that, 382 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 1: it's no wonder that ESP is thought to be haunted. 383 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: It is reputed to be one of the most studied 384 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: sites in the United States for paranormal activity, and it 385 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 1: is the frequent star of TV programming focusing on haunted places. 386 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: Tourists and employees alike have reported weeping, moaning, and whispering 387 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: being heard on the cell blocks and visual sites of 388 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: apparitions are common. Visitors to ESP have reported seeing the 389 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: ghost of Joseph Taylor. Taylor bludgend and overseer named Michael 390 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: Durant to death in four and after the horrific crime, 391 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: Taylor calmly re entered his cell and went to sleep. 392 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: The apparition of a mysterious woman is spotted so often 393 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: that employees have named her the soap Lady. She sits 394 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: in the last cell on the second floor, wearing white. 395 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: The second floor held the woman's cell block when the 396 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: prison was operational. People have reported seeing visions of ghostly 397 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: faces in block four, and one of the most legendary 398 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: tales of Block four comes from Gary Johnson, who helps 399 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: maintain the crumbling old locks at the prison in the 400 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: early nineteen nineties. He had just opened an old lock 401 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: in cell block four when he says a four script 402 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: him so tightly that he was unable to move. He 403 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: described a negative, horrible energy that exploded out of the cell. 404 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: He said tormented faces appeared on the cell walls and 405 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: that one form in particular beckoned to him. Guests claim 406 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: to get a glimpse of a man standing in a 407 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: guard tower on the property. However, there's no way to 408 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: physically get to the top of the tower today. The 409 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: brickstairs crumbled away many years ago. Those stories just scratched 410 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: the surface of what happens that he has paid. So, 411 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: I have a friend here, Mr. Aaron Sager's who is 412 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 1: a paranormal researcher and has worked closely with Eastern State 413 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: Penitentiary for years, and he's going to give us some 414 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: insight on common reports and what people think is really 415 00:26:52,240 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: going on inside those haunted, crumbling cell blocks. Aaron singers everyone, 416 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: He said, this is exciting. You know. Actually, every time 417 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: I think of Eastern State Penitentiary, I think of you 418 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: because I feel like you're there all the time. Why 419 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: is that Eastern State Penitentiary is my spooky home away 420 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: from home. I have spent a lot of time there, 421 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: and they have brought me out many times to talk 422 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: about the history but also the paranormal tales that have 423 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: emerged from there. But on a personal level, it was 424 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: sort of ground zero for me entering the paranormal. On 425 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: a professional level, I had an experience there. I have 426 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: always been fascinated by the paranormal. I've always been drawn 427 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: in by high strangeness, but it was really Eastern State 428 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: that I had an experience that was a bit of 429 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 1: a paradigm shift and sent me on a path. Well, 430 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 1: tell us what that was, Okay, I guess, I will. 431 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: I guess. That's sort of the point of kind of 432 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: intro you need to tell us. Well, I was there 433 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: as a journalist. That's that's my origin story. My career 434 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: is as a journalist, and I still work in that world. 435 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: And I wasn't there looking for ghosts. I was there 436 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: exploring the penitentiary. I was there alone, and I was 437 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: walking down. As Amy mentioned, cell block four has quite 438 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: the notorious reputation. And I was walking down this cell block, 439 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: and it was at night, and you know that moment 440 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: where you don't know why you look into a certain 441 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: room or why you are drawn to a certain spot. 442 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: I don't know what made me stop in front of 443 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: this one particular cell block, but I look in and 444 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: at the back of this cell I see what we 445 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: call a shadow figure, and it was very clear. I 446 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: could clearly see this distinct form and it was pacing 447 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: back and fourth, back and fourth in the far back 448 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: part of this cell. Now, I can't enter this cell 449 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: because there is a bar that prevents you from going 450 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: in there. But as I'm watching this figure go back 451 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: and forth, paced back and forth, I have this moment 452 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: of I guess I'm gonna talk to it. And I 453 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: think a lot of people that have had experiences they 454 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: have this moment of like, I'm really just talking to myself, 455 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: I'm crazy or whatever. Book I'm gonna do it. And 456 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: that's what I had. I said, Okay, if something's back there, 457 00:29:54,240 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: come closer, pacing back and forth, back and for back 458 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: and stop, and this form rushes me. My entire field 459 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: of vision goes entirely black. It's gone. And I leaped 460 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: back and release if you choice expletives, and I pause 461 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: and again I see this thing has now retreated to 462 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: the far back of the cell and has continued pacing 463 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: back and fourth. And this is this is this moment 464 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: where I'm like, I think I just saw a ghost, 465 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: and yet I didn't say anything. I kind of kept 466 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: it to myself, and time passes and someone else is 467 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: in this area and I happened to be in the 468 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: area at the same time. They're like, it looks like 469 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: there's something pacing back and forth in the back of 470 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: that cell and this was this independent confirmation that they 471 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: didn't know about, and to me, that validated the experience. 472 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: And then time goes on and I start doing events there, 473 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: paranormal events. I joined you, Amy, I joined a lot 474 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: of our our friends and colleagues. And I don't tell 475 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: people always this story. Although it's ruined now that we're 476 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: doing this podcast. Everyone knows it, but I don't always 477 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: reveal that story, but I always wait until someone kind 478 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,959 Speaker 1: of picks up on it, and they typically do. And 479 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: I would say Cell Block four is really one of 480 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: those locations that has a feeling to it, but it's 481 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: also special for me and and honestly, all throughout Eastern State, 482 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: I've had so many it seems like every time I 483 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: go there, something weird happens and it's something different. Yeah, 484 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: I mean I have not been there. The last time 485 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,959 Speaker 1: I was there, I was quite pregnant, so it's been 486 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: a long time. But only I would go hunting in 487 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: the old jail while I'm pregnant. But you know, do 488 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: you recall that you and I had an experience there? Okay, 489 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: So I had so many experience I knew as you 490 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: were telling your story, I feel like you and I 491 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: saw some sort of shadow or something. I remember distinctly 492 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: using the laser grid there for the first time, like 493 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: that was one of the first places that I For 494 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: those that don't know, the laser grid is basically just 495 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: this little pen that shoots out a grid of lasers, 496 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: so a laser grid, and it makes it easier to 497 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: see shadow figures in theory. And so I don't know 498 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: if this was the experience, but I remember shiny. It 499 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: might have been cellblock for I'm always familiar with all 500 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: the cellblocks it's been so long. They all look very 501 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: spooky and very similar when you get in there. But 502 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,479 Speaker 1: I remember shining it down into a lower level and 503 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: watching a shadow walk in and out of the laser 504 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: grid from above. So that was what I remember being 505 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: a pretty wild experience there. This was I leave Cell 506 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: Block twelve or it was that part of the penitentiary, 507 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: and there was that moment. But the thing that was 508 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: even weirder for me is we were yes pointing this 509 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: laser gride down because there are certain levels due to 510 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: the the structure, it's it's unsafe in places. We were 511 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: pointing down in a lower level that we could not access. 512 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: So there was this shadow form. But beyond that there 513 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: was this missed does not even encapsulate. I remember this, Yes, 514 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: it almost had a tangibility and it was in a 515 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: cell like it was. I remember thinking because I was 516 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: like is this dust? Like what is it? And I 517 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: remember distinctly, Okay, now I remember, I just wasn't sure 518 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: if that was you that I was. It was thick 519 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: and amorphous, and the light the laser instead of you know, 520 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: I've I've been too many a laser light shows. It 521 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: was a fan of Pink Floyd at the observatory in 522 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: or Lande I grew up. It doesn't it doesn't look 523 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: like miss that's going or a light laser like that's 524 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: going through miss. Instead, it almost absorbed. Yes, it enveloped it. 525 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: It's the same thing that happens with the shadow figures 526 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: when it hits a shadow figure, like a legit shadow figure. 527 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 1: If if you walk in front of a laser grid, 528 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: it just looks like you have a laser on you, 529 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: But when it hits like a shadow or something, it 530 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 1: just disappears. It's very weird, Like I mean, I don't 531 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: I have no explanation for it. There's something about that location. 532 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: I think part of it. Honestly, we have been to 533 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: a lot of jails, asylums, hospitals, you know, all cheery places. 534 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: There's something about Eastern State. I think the fact that 535 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: it was left to just sit and be overtaken for 536 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: twenty years, I think it created something of a paranormal 537 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: crop bid, like a stew a gumbo was like just 538 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: just kind of percolating in there where it was almost 539 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: like the activity was left to kind of build up. Yeah, 540 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: it's I find Eastern State to be incredibly beautiful. They 541 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 1: it was the first place that I heard the term 542 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: arrested decay, which meaning that they basically they don't restore 543 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: it any further and they don't let it deteriorate any further. 544 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: And so it's just they're like they clean out certain 545 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: areas and and try to kind of, you know, build 546 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: them back up so we can safely visit them. But 547 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 1: there are places you go that have just been completely 548 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 1: overtaken by nature, and I don't know what that does 549 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 1: to the energy there. And I honestly, until I did 550 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: this podcast and was doing all the research for it, 551 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: I guess I did not understand the conditions that were 552 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: in that building. I thought of it as kind of 553 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: a traditional prison, whatever that may be. But I had 554 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,720 Speaker 1: no idea that the whole basis of silence, which sounds 555 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: like the creepiest, weirdest punishment to me, that they were 556 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: made to be silent at all times. Yes, and the 557 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 1: violence that the locations are the goo stories began in 558 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: nineteen not began, but there are documented reports of ghost 559 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,760 Speaker 1: stories at the Eastern State in nineteen and the nineteen forties, 560 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 1: early nineties, and the there was such violence there. There 561 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: were riots, there was, but there was also for instance, 562 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 1: there was one doctor that worked there that was said 563 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,879 Speaker 1: to be carrying just basically a bucket of body parts 564 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: throughout the halls because he was given free reign to 565 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: conducts unauthorized autopsies. There was one young woman that came 566 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 1: to collect the body of her father who had died, 567 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: and they said, oh, he's not ready yet. Well, okay, 568 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 1: he's dead. Why isn't he ready. When she does finally 569 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 1: retrieve this body, he has an autopsy scar around the 570 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: crown of his head, and basically this doctor just plucked 571 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: out the brain and did what he will with it. 572 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of tales of that, and people 573 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: that were obviously suffering from mental illness. At that time, 574 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: it wasn't really talked about, but there was one inmate 575 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: who was incredibly emaciated and couldn't stand up and was 576 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: in his cell, And at one point a judge became 577 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: involved because there were investigations into the treatment there, and 578 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: the judges like, well, why is this guy like this? 579 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 1: And I believe one of the guard's response was is 580 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: just like everyone else, he just really wants attention. This 581 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: total dismissal of some of these things. And now since 582 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: it has been a while since you've been there, what 583 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: they do is they do document the prison system and 584 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: the experience of not just Eastern State, but the prison 585 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: system correctional system throughout the world. But one of the 586 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: things that they do is because this this prison closed 587 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: down in the seventies, there are a lot of inmates 588 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 1: that are alive and they have collected audio, they have 589 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: shown videos, and so all day long, while this prison 590 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: is operating as a landmark that you can tour, you 591 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: are hearing the voices and the accounts of all of 592 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: this history. It's like having a basically a trigger object 593 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,399 Speaker 1: just going constantly, wow, that's so interesting. What I left 594 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,720 Speaker 1: about the folks there is that they're very open about 595 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: their ghosts. They're very open about their hauntings. They're obviously 596 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 1: very open about their history. It's it is the kind 597 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: of epitome of turning a bad situation into something positive. 598 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: Like they do do so much with their nonprofit and everything. 599 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: But having been there lately, like, how how are the 600 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: haunts going, Like is it any more active any less? 601 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: Or yes? I think that much like the rest of 602 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,839 Speaker 1: the world, you know, following will still enduring this pandemic. 603 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: It has altered some things there, And I have spoken 604 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: to people at Eastern State that's say it's almost like 605 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,479 Speaker 1: the ghosts are hungry for the attention and that they 606 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: want that acknowledgement and and for a place that saw 607 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: such suffering. If there are, if there are presences there 608 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: that continue to linger, I think maybe people coming and 609 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: visiting a place that does frankly discussed the history, maybe 610 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: if something is lingering there, it sees these tourists, it 611 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 1: sees the museum component as a way of having their 612 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: story told. Yeah, I mean I've always felt like so 613 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 1: whenever we investigate prisons, I'm always adamant that we don't 614 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,319 Speaker 1: go in with judgment I think it's really easy for 615 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: people to assume that everyone they're talking to in a 616 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: in a jail was a bad person in some way. 617 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 1: But you know, I always say, with whole judgment, you 618 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: don't know their story, especially if place like Eastern State 619 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 1: being an operation for so long, you have no idea 620 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: how or why they ended up there, And so I 621 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: think that that understanding is really important as you investigate there. 622 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 1: So have you you investigated there a lot? Do you 623 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: think that's the way to go about it? Do you 624 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,400 Speaker 1: think they respond to that kind of communication or I 625 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,240 Speaker 1: think that will consider that. I think the youngest inmate 626 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,840 Speaker 1: there was an eleven year old girl. So you cannot 627 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 1: look at that and say, oh, that was a bad person. 628 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 1: You know. Yes, first off, I think if if you're 629 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,360 Speaker 1: going to enter any location, yes, you should think about 630 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,359 Speaker 1: if there are people lingering in a different form there, 631 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:41,279 Speaker 1: they were people, they were they so treat them with respect. 632 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: So yes, I do say, go about things with a 633 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: respectful outlook and ask questions. You know, how did you 634 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: pass the time? What were your hobbies in this while 635 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 1: you were stuck here? Or what did you learn during 636 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 1: your time here? I think those are all good and 637 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: I also I do wonder for some of the people 638 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: that did commit horrible acts that were legitimately sentenced there, 639 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 1: maybe they're going through their own process in the afterlife 640 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: where they are processing their own guilt, their own regrets, 641 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 1: their own grief. Maybe they are also going through something 642 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: that they have to get through while they are there still. Yeah, 643 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: and I mean I've wondered that because you have that 644 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: kind of classic unfinished business, which is why I think 645 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,879 Speaker 1: a lot of spirits linger, and in a place like that, 646 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: I could see this kind of self imposed sentence happening 647 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 1: where people feel like they don't deserve to move on 648 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 1: from there. I mean I'm completely speculating, of course, but 649 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: just having investigated many prisons, I've just I've I've felt 650 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 1: that in a way and gotten evidence to indicate that. 651 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,800 Speaker 1: I think there's so many potentials there. But yeah, I agree, 652 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,720 Speaker 1: And I almost wonder if, of course, we talked about 653 00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: things like reincarnation and that is a way of like 654 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 1: processing through your cast deeds as you move on, Well, 655 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 1: what if there's this other aspect where maybe these ghosts 656 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: which is a very simplistic word, but maybe maybe they're afterlife, 657 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: is this prolonged therapy session where they're having to go 658 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: through everything before they feel like they can let go 659 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: or move on or whatever it is that they do. Yeah. Absolutely, 660 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,919 Speaker 1: I mean, so now Eastern State is open again for tours, right, 661 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: it is okay, and so people can go there, they 662 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: can visit. Are they doing investigations at all that you 663 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: know of or I don't know if they've begun the 664 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,880 Speaker 1: investigations yet because I have to imagine that involves a 665 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 1: lot of protocols and what safety protocols. But if they 666 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,719 Speaker 1: are and if they begin again, I'm ready to be 667 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,280 Speaker 1: back in line to do it again. I love the place. 668 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 1: I find it hunting, I find it beautiful, and I 669 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 1: definitely think for any paranormal investigator out there, anyone that 670 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 1: wants to pursue it is a great location to go to. 671 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,360 Speaker 1: That is awesome. Well, thank you Mr Sagers for joining 672 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 1: me on our first ever live episode of Haunted Road 673 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,280 Speaker 1: and everyone here. I really appreciate you taking the time 674 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 1: and for everybody listening. You can join us at places 675 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,880 Speaker 1: like this. This is Strange Escapes, my company. You can 676 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,160 Speaker 1: check it out at Strange dash escapes dot com. Kindred 677 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: Spirits from years December on Discovery Plus and Travel Channel 678 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:32,439 Speaker 1: and anything else you want to shout out. Mr Sagers. Yeah, well, Amy, 679 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me here at the 680 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: Mount Washington and on the live show. It is an honor. 681 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 1: And for anyone that wants to follow my work, you 682 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: can see me on Paranormal Call on Camera on Travel 683 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,759 Speaker 1: Channel and Discovery Plus. You can see me on the 684 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,280 Speaker 1: Ripley's Believe It or Not Ripley's Road Trip YouTube series 685 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: that's more of an oddity show rather than a paranormal one. 686 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: And you can also just say hi to me across 687 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: social media at Aaron Sagers or if you see me 688 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: in person, don't make it weird, but come up and 689 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,040 Speaker 1: say hi in person. Well you guys, I hope you 690 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,879 Speaker 1: enjoyed this deep dive into Eastern State. To me, it's 691 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 1: just a fascinating bit of history. I had no idea 692 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,839 Speaker 1: actually what went on within those walls, and strangely now 693 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: I'm feeling very drawn to getting back there, so I 694 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,480 Speaker 1: can't wait to visit again. Thank you so much everyone, 695 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I'm Amy Bruney and this was Haunted Road. 696 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: Haunted Road is a production of I Heart Radio and 697 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,280 Speaker 1: Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written 698 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,720 Speaker 1: and hosted by Amy Bruney. Executive producers include Aaron Manky, 699 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:49,279 Speaker 1: Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. The show is produced by 700 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,239 Speaker 1: rema Ill Kali and Trevor Young. Taylor Haggerdorn is the 701 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 1: show's researcher. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit 702 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,759 Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 703 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:01,839 Speaker 1: get your podcasts.