Speaker 1: Pushkin Hi, Emilia, and I'm going I have a question
Speaker 1: for you man not alive. She's said it, and I'm
Speaker 1: eight and I like sex and she does not. I
Speaker 1: have a good friend in his eighties, and honestly, he's
Speaker 1: maybe the most sexual person I know. But it is
Speaker 1: true that what sexual looks like for him in his
Speaker 1: eighties is different from how he looked earlier in his life.
Speaker 1: But I think it's different in ways you might not expect.
Speaker 1: I'm Emilinagaski and this is the Come as you Are
Speaker 1: podcast where I answer questions about sex with science. In
Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to be talking about out sex
Speaker 1: in long term relationships. I'm writing my next book on this,
Speaker 1: so it is always on my mind. Plus I have
Speaker 1: come across so much interesting research. So here's my producer,
Speaker 1: mo Hi mo Hi, Emilie. We've had such a great
Speaker 1: season and I can't believe it's already coming to an end.
Speaker 1: I feel like these episodes have been an updated like
Speaker 1: Sex Said, what a one course for everyone like me
Speaker 1: who didn't get the Sex said they deserved absolutely, and
Speaker 1: people could listen to it while they were folding laundry
Speaker 1: or commuting to work. Among the many reasons. I love podcasts. Yes,
Speaker 1: now this question today, Okay. I immediately thought that we
Speaker 1: needed to answer this on the show because I know
Speaker 1: you're writing a book about sex in long term relationships. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there are so many stereotypes too, and so many questions
Speaker 1: about sex and aging. The New York Times this year
Speaker 1: did a story on sex and aging and there were
Speaker 1: like some photographs of people in situations and on Instagram.
Speaker 1: The comments half of them were like, this is so
Speaker 1: great for them, and the other half were like, uh,
Speaker 1: get this off my feed sterilize my eyeballs. So I
Speaker 1: love addressing a topic that carries this kind of taboo,
Speaker 1: even though it's a topic that a lot of us
Speaker 1: would love to live long enough to have it apply
Speaker 1: to us. Totally. Lucky him that he is thinking about
Speaker 1: this and wanting to improve his sex life at eighty.
Speaker 1: That is incredible. So why did you choose the topic
Speaker 1: of sex and long term relationships for your next book?
Speaker 1: It's based on a true story. Tell me. It took
Speaker 1: me about a year and a half to write Come
Speaker 1: as You Are, which is a book that is all
Speaker 1: about the science of women's sexual well being. So I
Speaker 1: was thinking and writing and reading about sex all day,
Speaker 1: every day, And ironically, after all that time thinking about sex,
Speaker 1: I had zero interest in actually having any sex. As
Speaker 1: you know, I am married to somebody, and that's somebody
Speaker 1: because of me. Went months with nothing from me, and
Speaker 1: then the book was published, and I traveled all over
Speaker 1: the country talking to anyone who would listen about the
Speaker 1: science of sex. And when I got back from those trips,
Speaker 1: i'd be so tired that we'd try to get in
Speaker 1: bed together and I would just cry and fall asleep.
Speaker 1: So there were more months of nothing right, and I
Speaker 1: missed the sex. I missed my partner, and I missed
Speaker 1: the part of myself that plays in the erotic realm.
Speaker 1: Like I have always imagined myself having an erotic connection
Speaker 1: that develops and grows with a certain special someone far
Speaker 1: into our old age. I want us to be giggling
Speaker 1: and licking and snuggling until we're ninety five, if we're
Speaker 1: lucky enough to live that long. So here I was
Speaker 1: sixty years ahead of schedule already losing that, and I
Speaker 1: was was pretty shocking. But I had spent all that
Speaker 1: time reading a lot of science about sexuality, so there
Speaker 1: were some things I knew about sex and a long
Speaker 1: term relationship that helped us find our way back to
Speaker 1: each other. But it wasn't stuff I was finding in
Speaker 1: other books. So this new book is the book that
Speaker 1: I wanted to read in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. It's
Speaker 1: the science that helped us stay connected even through twenty
Speaker 1: sixteen and twenty seventeen. And then oh gosh, here's a
Speaker 1: global pandemic. Right, So this is the science I couldn't
Speaker 1: find another books, but that I knew because I was
Speaker 1: reading the science and because I was putting it to
Speaker 1: work in my own relationship. It seems like you are
Speaker 1: perfectly equipped to answer today's question. So are you ready
Speaker 1: to hear the whole thing? So ready? My name is
Speaker 1: archer Man. Not alive, she said in it five and
Speaker 1: I and I'll like shick and she does not. I
Speaker 1: take all natural to help me to get my potential.
Speaker 1: So why is it she don't like to have relations
Speaker 1: with me when we can? Are you supposed to have
Speaker 1: sex when you get that old? What I'm saying if
Speaker 1: you want it, I do want it. I love to
Speaker 1: have it, and so I just want to nip. There's
Speaker 1: sometimes a rule on that. So that's all I asked
Speaker 1: him by now and have a good day. I love
Speaker 1: Arthur so much. On a certain level, it's really heartbreaking
Speaker 1: to hear like the loneliness and isolation. Why doesn't my
Speaker 1: wife like having sex with me? And also I feel
Speaker 1: really optimistic and hopeful about it, because if he's willing
Speaker 1: to ask the question out loud, that suggests to me
Speaker 1: that they might be able to answer the question together.
Speaker 1: You were saying that you have been researching and reading
Speaker 1: all about on long term sexual relationships. Can you explain
Speaker 1: to us what science that we might need to know
Speaker 1: in order to answer this question. Yes, I would love
Speaker 1: nothing more. It's one of my favorite things to talk about,
Speaker 1: so to begin with, of course, there are no rules.
Speaker 1: That's what Arthur is asking, and if he has listened
Speaker 1: to the rest of the series, he will know that
Speaker 1: by now. And I would point out that Arthur doesn't
Speaker 1: actually tell us how long he and his wife have
Speaker 1: been together. Maybe they have been together for fifty years,
Speaker 1: or maybe they just met and got married five or
Speaker 1: ten years ago or less. We don't know. I was
Speaker 1: wondering before we get too far into this answer, like,
Speaker 1: how do you define a long term relationship? Oh, that's
Speaker 1: a really great question. Yeah, what counts is long term.
Speaker 1: For me, it's any relationship that has lasted long enough
Speaker 1: for things to change. So you look back and you're like, wow,
Speaker 1: things have really changed since we first got together, and
Speaker 1: maybe that's three months, or maybe it's ten years. I
Speaker 1: love that definition because I have been with my girlfriend
Speaker 1: for three years, but we've got together in twenty nineteen,
Speaker 1: and it feels like we are so close. And you know,
Speaker 1: this is explaining to me the phenomenon of the pandemic
Speaker 1: couple basically having a really intense connection. Yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: phenomenon in social psychology that people who have to solve
Speaker 1: a problem that they can only solve by solving it
Speaker 1: together naturally bond in a really deep way. But regardless
Speaker 1: of how long people have been together, regardless of their
Speaker 1: age or their health status, regardless of their genders or
Speaker 1: any other characteristic of their identities or relationship structure. What
Speaker 1: the research shows me is that couples who sustain a
Speaker 1: strong sexual connection over many years have two things in common. First,
Speaker 1: they are friends who trust and admire each other, and second,
Speaker 1: they prioritize sex. They decide that it matters for their
Speaker 1: relationship and they're shared lives, that they close the door
Speaker 1: on all the other things they could be doing, right,
Speaker 1: like they maybe they've got kids to raise, or work
Speaker 1: to go to, or letters to their representatives to write,
Speaker 1: other friends or in family to spend time with. Maybe
Speaker 1: they want to sleep. God forbid, we are busy, right,
Speaker 1: But these folks who sustain a strong sexual connection over
Speaker 1: the long term stop everything else and just turn toward
Speaker 1: each other's erotic selves. And my question is, why would
Speaker 1: anyone do that? Why stop all the other really important
Speaker 1: things in our lives and do this, let's face it,
Speaker 1: pretty silly thing that humans do. So I have actually
Speaker 1: asked people what is it that you like when you
Speaker 1: like sex? And what is it that you want when
Speaker 1: you want sex with a partner? And the first thing
Speaker 1: people say is connection. We want and like and long
Speaker 1: for the vulnerability and authenticity and co presence with another
Speaker 1: person that sex can bring. And I hear that so
Speaker 1: powerfully in Arthur's question. And the second thing that people
Speaker 1: say they want and like about sex with a partner,
Speaker 1: I mean, I bet you could guess this. The second
Speaker 1: thing people say, after connection, they want pleasure. But let's
Speaker 1: think through how this wanting and longing for connection and
Speaker 1: pleasure actually plays out for a couple like this, a
Speaker 1: couple with a desire differential. Let's imagine Arthur and his
Speaker 1: wife in a sex therapist office. Picture of them. They're
Speaker 1: They're sitting on a couch, probably at opposite ends of
Speaker 1: the couch. I want us to give them the A
Speaker 1: real sex therapist and researcher, doctor Peggy Klein Plots, who
Speaker 1: is the leader of the Optimal Sexual Experiences Research Group
Speaker 1: in Canada. I'm a gigantic fan. Her book is called
Speaker 1: Magnificent Sex. Please everyone read it. It will change your life.
Speaker 1: She studies people who have extraordinary sex lives to find
Speaker 1: out what they can teach couples like Arthur and his wife.
Speaker 1: So there they are sitting in her office, and Arthur's
Speaker 1: wife might say something like, I know he wants to
Speaker 1: have sex, but I'd be happy if we never had
Speaker 1: sex again in my life. I'm sorry, that's just how
Speaker 1: it is. Peggy's response would be, tell me more about
Speaker 1: the sex you don't want. As Arthur says, he likes
Speaker 1: it and his wife doesn't like it, so probably the
Speaker 1: sex that Arthur's wife will describe might not be very pleasurable.
Speaker 1: Maybe she spent a lot of years feeling sex was
Speaker 1: something she needed to do out of obligation, or something
Speaker 1: that she did because he wanted it and not because
Speaker 1: she wanted or liked it. Maybe it's even painful, maybe
Speaker 1: it's boring. Whatever the case, what we often find is
Speaker 1: that a difficulty like this with desire is not actually
Speaker 1: because a person doesn't want sex exactly. The problem is
Speaker 1: they don't like the sex that's available. The way Peggy
Speaker 1: says it is sometimes low desire is evidence of good judgment,
Speaker 1: and my way of saying it, the thing I say
Speaker 1: over and over is that pleasure is the measure of
Speaker 1: sexual well being. So, as Peggy describes her interactions with
Speaker 1: couples like this in the past, she has said things like, well,
Speaker 1: I rather like sex, but if I were having that sex,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want it either. And so her next question
Speaker 1: to clients is what kind of sex is worth wanting?
Speaker 1: The couples who sustain a strong sexual connection of the
Speaker 1: long term have sex worth wanting. And when I say wanting,
Speaker 1: this is the essential caveat. I'm not talking about spontaneous desire.
Speaker 1: Remember back from the Spontaneous Desire episode, These couples have sex,
Speaker 1: not because they're so horny they can't help themselves, but
Speaker 1: because they feel that it does good things for their
Speaker 1: relationship and for their shared lives and for their individual spirits,
Speaker 1: that they not do all the other things that are
Speaker 1: so important in our lives and they just spend this
Speaker 1: time with each other. I love that you started answering
Speaker 1: this question talking about basically their relationship and their emotional selves. So,
Speaker 1: if we're going to talk about long term relationships, I
Speaker 1: think one of those questions that comes up all the
Speaker 1: time for people in long term relationships is the question
Speaker 1: of frequency, like are we doing it enough? Or is
Speaker 1: our relationship at risk if we haven't had sex in
Speaker 1: X period of time however long that is. And there
Speaker 1: is so much cultural messaging around what's enough sex in
Speaker 1: a long term relationship? What regular sex quote unquote should
Speaker 1: look like in a long term relationship. Yeah, and you
Speaker 1: know what the answer is going to be, because you
Speaker 1: use that word should stop shooting on ourselves. And I
Speaker 1: do I get this question all the time. How often
Speaker 1: are people supposed to have sex? Or how often do
Speaker 1: couples have sex according to science? People definitely want that answer,
Speaker 1: but the science answer, it's not going to help you,
Speaker 1: and sometimes the science answer can do harm. Right, So
Speaker 1: how do science get this answer? We ask a thousand
Speaker 1: couples how frequently do you have sex? And then we
Speaker 1: add their answers together and divide it by the number
Speaker 1: of couples, and there we have the average frequency of
Speaker 1: couples in long term relationships. So you hear that number
Speaker 1: and you can't not compare yourself to that number and
Speaker 1: judge yourself as doing it right or doing it wrong,
Speaker 1: like few, we're better than those people, or oh no,
Speaker 1: there must be something wrong. But in reality, what in
Speaker 1: the world do those people who participated in their research
Speaker 1: have to do with you and your sex life? Nothing? Right?
Speaker 1: You don't know those people. Those people don't know your life,
Speaker 1: So I don't actually give the answer to the question
Speaker 1: how often does the average couple have sex? Because it's
Speaker 1: you can't hear it and not use it against yourself
Speaker 1: as a way to decide that you're not normal. Like
Speaker 1: if you have sex more often than those people, than
Speaker 1: you're normal and you feel a certain way about that,
Speaker 1: and if you have sex less off and you feel
Speaker 1: a different way, and it's a reflex like you cannot
Speaker 1: help it. But again, the sexual frequency of all those
Speaker 1: other couples has nothing to do with you and your
Speaker 1: relationship and this season in your life. That scientific data
Speaker 1: is relevant to literally no one. It is deadly squat
Speaker 1: It is meaningless. Sorry. I know people want a number.
Speaker 1: People want the number so bad. Y'all can look it
Speaker 1: up if you want to, But I'm not going to
Speaker 1: be the one who hands you that weapon. I found
Speaker 1: the number very recently, in fact, while we were working
Speaker 1: on this show together, and it caused me to spiral
Speaker 1: in my relationship that I wasn't doing it enough. And
Speaker 1: then there's also the horrible, terrible trope of I don't
Speaker 1: even know if I should say it, of lesbian bed
Speaker 1: death that I'm so afraid of. Girl. I have a
Speaker 1: whole chapter on lesbian bed death in the book You Do, Yes,
Speaker 1: Lucky Me. And the thing the thing to know is
Speaker 1: that there isn't really a strong relationship between frequency of
Speaker 1: sex and sex or relationship satisfaction. You know what is
Speaker 1: predictive of sex and relationship satisfaction pleasure? It is whether
Speaker 1: or not you like the sex you are having. And
Speaker 1: to compare your relationship to some standard in the research
Speaker 1: is to apply cis heteronormative, patriarchal standards to your sex life.
Speaker 1: You're letting the man win if you let yourself spiral
Speaker 1: about sexual frequency. And while it might be the case
Speaker 1: that lesbian couples have sex less frequently as their relationship
Speaker 1: goes on, that's true for lots of different kinds of couples.
Speaker 1: And also it's the case that those couples, compared to
Speaker 1: heterosexual couples, have more oral sex, more variety of sexual behaviors.
Speaker 1: They're more likely to say I love you, and they
Speaker 1: have sex longer. If that matters to you, Yeah, it does.
Speaker 1: It clicks for me. That definitely resonates. So it's not
Speaker 1: the frequency that matters, it's the quality, whether or not
Speaker 1: you like it. Okay, So the other big elephant in
Speaker 1: the room, which you talked about right at the beginning,
Speaker 1: is how your body changes as you age. And when
Speaker 1: you talk about a long term relationship, you are also
Speaker 1: inherently talking about aging. What do we need to know
Speaker 1: about sex and aging? Oh? Yes, it's real that bodies
Speaker 1: change over time. For sis gender men, testosterol levels drop
Speaker 1: across their adult lives. I think the peak is in
Speaker 1: the late teens, and by the time you get to
Speaker 1: your sixties, seventies, eighties, erections take more time, and maybe
Speaker 1: you know if you're lying down, your erection is going
Speaker 1: to point where the ceiling instead of pointing at your chin.
Speaker 1: For sis gender women, the hormone changes of menopause can
Speaker 1: result in physical changes like thinning of the tissue of
Speaker 1: the vulva and vagina, which can lead to tearing, which
Speaker 1: can lead to pain, which of course is going to
Speaker 1: reduce your interest in sex. But a lot of other
Speaker 1: changes that are sometimes attributed to menopause, including reduced sexual interests,
Speaker 1: aren't actually about hormones. They're about psychology, how you feel
Speaker 1: about your changing body and how the other symptoms are
Speaker 1: affecting your sense of who you are as a person.
Speaker 1: And of course, for transfolks will be completely unsurprised to
Speaker 1: know that there is a dearth of research about aging insects.
Speaker 1: I can say that for anyone who has or ever
Speaker 1: has had a uterus, I would recommend heathercorn As Menopause book,
Speaker 1: What fresh hell is this? This book is like your
Speaker 1: non binary best friend has become an edrocrinologist and they
Speaker 1: take no shit. I would also point you to Amassani,
Speaker 1: Bernie Scott's multimedia project Black Girl's Guide to Surviving Menopause.
Speaker 1: I think gen X's really pushing progress so that as
Speaker 1: we my generation gets to menopause, we are not accepting
Speaker 1: the cis gender, heteronormative, medicalized crap the Boomers had to experience,
Speaker 1: and that includes not making assumptions about what's going to
Speaker 1: happen to our sex lives on the other side of menopause.
Speaker 1: We want to be who we are without conforming to
Speaker 1: somebody else's narrative of who they say we're supposed to be.
Speaker 1: And it is real. While I say that people respond
Speaker 1: differently to aging, for some people, really it does feel
Speaker 1: like I never have to worry about that again, in
Speaker 1: which case do you. But for others it's now I
Speaker 1: am liberated from all those ridiculous standards against which I
Speaker 1: was always supposed to be measuring myself. None of that
Speaker 1: applies to me now, and I am free to do
Speaker 1: what I want. I will be sure to put the
Speaker 1: links to those books in the show notes. Oh, that'd
Speaker 1: be great, thank you. Of course. I have heard tell
Speaker 1: of the papery and often tearing post menopausal vagina, and
Speaker 1: I have to say the first time I heard the
Speaker 1: word papery. I was like, it was like times slowed down.
Speaker 1: I was like, what do you mean PAPERI And medical
Speaker 1: treatments for that do exist, hormonal vaginal implant treatments and
Speaker 1: by the time you get to menopause they'll be even
Speaker 1: more in better interventions. M okay. So Arthur asks, are
Speaker 1: you supposed to have sex when you get this old?
Speaker 1: And obviously, like you said, there are no rule, no obligations,
Speaker 1: but you are saying like it's normal for your body
Speaker 1: to have big changes. Yeah, like your body changes so
Speaker 1: much when you age. In general, your body and your brain. Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh okay, tell me more, you know. Sex therapist and
Speaker 1: neuroscientist doctor Nan Wise. She writes that as you age,
Speaker 1: all of your senses stored of start to diminish in
Speaker 1: their intensity. The connections between your body and your brain
Speaker 1: kind of wear out a little bit. Your eyesight, you're
Speaker 1: hearing your eyesights as the person who is currently wearing
Speaker 1: reading glasses to look at her screen, So your eyesight,
Speaker 1: you're hearing your sense of smell and taste, and the
Speaker 1: same goes for your sense of arousal. So that's called interreception,
Speaker 1: your awareness of your own body sensations and so orgasm
Speaker 1: and other genital sensations and arousal might feel less intense too.
Speaker 1: So if your idea of sex worth want is sex
Speaker 1: that is the same as when you were younger, or
Speaker 1: sex that is full of intense, spontaneous desire and lots
Speaker 1: of athletic positions, then maybe you will feel dissatisfied with
Speaker 1: sex as you age. But there's a very simple fix
Speaker 1: for that. All you have to change in order to
Speaker 1: increase your satisfaction is shift your understanding that the sex
Speaker 1: that is accessible to you in your body as it
Speaker 1: is right now, as long as it's pleasurable and of
Speaker 1: course consensual, it's worth having if you decided is worth having.
Speaker 1: There's no rule. There's just what rule sex, however you
Speaker 1: define it, what role it plays in your life and
Speaker 1: your relationship. Can I let me plug here Nan Wise's book.
Speaker 1: It's called Why Good Sex Matters. It is hilarious. So
Speaker 1: if you like humor and affective neuroscience together, this is
Speaker 1: a book for you niche audience that I think might
Speaker 1: be listening right now. In fact, okay, let's take a
Speaker 1: break and when we get back and we can talk
Speaker 1: about how we apply the science to hopefully give Arthur
Speaker 1: and his wife an answer to the question of like,
Speaker 1: what is sex that is worth wanting? Fantastic, So, Emily,
Speaker 1: you and I are here answering probably my favorite question
Speaker 1: that we've gotten all season from this absolute king. He's
Speaker 1: eighty years old and his wife is seventy five. Let
Speaker 1: me just play a little bit of the clip to
Speaker 1: remind you, are you supposed to have six when you
Speaker 1: get that old? I'm saying, if you want it, I
Speaker 1: do want it. Do you think this is the oldest
Speaker 1: person you've ever gotten a question from? Oh, he's not
Speaker 1: the oldest people in their eighties? Is the oldest that
Speaker 1: I hear from. I have not yet been the teacher
Speaker 1: to a nonogenarian, but for example, a woman attended a
Speaker 1: workshop I led, who told me afterward that she was
Speaker 1: there because she had recently had her first orgasm and
Speaker 1: she was seventy five. Oh wow, good for her. There
Speaker 1: was also a couple who attended a workshop I led.
Speaker 1: I'll be honest, they were definitely in their seventies, but
Speaker 1: they were there for fun. They did not actually need
Speaker 1: any help from me. Also, very good for them. Like
Speaker 1: I think everyone saw that news story a few years
Speaker 1: ago about how STIs are on the rise and nursing
Speaker 1: homes and how seniors gets and there was a Parks
Speaker 1: and rac episode about teaching seniors to use condoms. Yes,
Speaker 1: I remember that. Today we are here to talk about
Speaker 1: safe sex. I know this is a personal question, but
Speaker 1: how many of you out there are sexually active? Oh? My,
Speaker 1: I have two partners often at the same time. Wow,
Speaker 1: thank you. We know old people bang, but we don't
Speaker 1: talk about it. Culturally. It's like we just de sexualize
Speaker 1: people as they age. Yeah. I kind of wish it
Speaker 1: were as simple as just de sexual I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people are raised to feel that older people's
Speaker 1: sexuality is like ick, because we're taught that if a
Speaker 1: person's body doesn't conform with this fictional cultural ideal, which
Speaker 1: definitely involves a young adult body, then those people shouldn't
Speaker 1: be having sex. And the thing is all of that
Speaker 1: stuff is a lie, and we get to choose to
Speaker 1: challenge that experience that in ourselves and our relationships with
Speaker 1: all the people around us. We want to be those
Speaker 1: people at that sex workshop when we're eighty, or calling
Speaker 1: into a sex hotline when we're eighty. We do want
Speaker 1: to be those people so I want to give Arthur
Speaker 1: and his wife some real practical advice, and also for
Speaker 1: every couple that's maybe in a long term relationship, or
Speaker 1: maybe somebody who is confronting age and their body changing.
Speaker 1: What would be your like practical day to day advice
Speaker 1: for people in this situation. This is a variation on
Speaker 1: the question I'm asked most by people in long term
Speaker 1: relationships is what to do about a desire differential? So
Speaker 1: for anyone who is a higher desire partner in a relationship,
Speaker 1: once the relationship is stable, because again, the couples who
Speaker 1: sustain a strong sexual connection are friends who admire and
Speaker 1: trust each other. When that's in place, the first thing
Speaker 1: to do, your first step is to talk to your
Speaker 1: partner about what kind of sex is worth wanting. And
Speaker 1: the hard part is that maybe their answer is no
Speaker 1: kind of sex I've ever had has been worth wanting,
Speaker 1: or I can hardly imagine any sex that would be
Speaker 1: worth wanting. And if that's the person's answer, therapy and
Speaker 1: let me normalize that. Yes, couples this sage definitely do
Speaker 1: seek therapy. There's a whole book by sex therapist Barry
Speaker 1: McCarthy and his wife Emily they're both in their seventies,
Speaker 1: themselves married to each other for over fifty years. They've
Speaker 1: seen so many older couples that they wrote this whole
Speaker 1: book to help therapists work with these clients. It's called
Speaker 1: Couples Sexuality after sixty. So Step one talk about sex
Speaker 1: worth wanting and if you need help with that conversation
Speaker 1: therapy step two. So I've said the couples who sustain
Speaker 1: a strong sexual connection are friends who admire and trust
Speaker 1: each other, and they prioritize sex. But I'm going to
Speaker 1: add a third characteristic. Couples who sustain a strong sexual
Speaker 1: connection over the long term reject the binary gender rules
Speaker 1: that were assigned to them, especially around their sexuality. Both
Speaker 1: the McCarthy's and there's a sex educator and researcher named
Speaker 1: Jane Fleischmann who emphasizes the importance of this third characteristic.
Speaker 1: So Jane wrote a book called The Stonewall Generation, which
Speaker 1: is about the sex lives of LGBTQIA two plus elder
Speaker 1: boomers who were part of the revolution that's often marked
Speaker 1: by the Stonewall Riot, and she interviewed them to find
Speaker 1: out what their sex lives were like, and she found
Speaker 1: that the predictors of sexual satisfaction among these folks were so.
Speaker 1: The first one was, of course, lowered internalized homophobia, and second,
Speaker 1: higher acceptance of their aging bodies. When older LGBTQIA too
Speaker 1: plus people have better sex, it's when they are rejecting
Speaker 1: the binary. It's when they're rejecting the script that says,
Speaker 1: this is who you're supposed to be, and that is
Speaker 1: something we can all do. So when I hear Arthur
Speaker 1: talking about taking something to I think he says, get
Speaker 1: to his potential. Yes, what I hear there is erections,
Speaker 1: and I even hear the assumption that it's penis and
Speaker 1: vagina sex that he means he wants when he says
Speaker 1: he wants and like sex. That's the intercourse imperative. It
Speaker 1: is assis heteronormative script of what counts as sex. A
Speaker 1: long time ago, when viagraph first came out, for example,
Speaker 1: there was a study done at the Kinsey Institute that
Speaker 1: found that wives in heterosexual couples where the husband had
Speaker 1: started taking viagra were actually less satisfied with their sex
Speaker 1: lives because they liked that intercourse had become decentralized in
Speaker 1: their sex lives, and when erections came back because he
Speaker 1: was taking a medication. All the other pleasurable things they
Speaker 1: were doing went away because now the erection was here,
Speaker 1: And so penetration. People expand their access to pleasure when
Speaker 1: they reject the scripts that tell them what emotions they're
Speaker 1: allowed to feel and who's allowed to initiate and what
Speaker 1: kind of sex you're supposed to have because of whatever
Speaker 1: body parts you have. So maybe this doesn't sound like
Speaker 1: practical advice, but it actually is concrete, specific practical advice.
Speaker 1: Write down the script that you were given about who
Speaker 1: you're supposed to be as a gendered person and start
Speaker 1: crossing out the stuff that's getting in the way of
Speaker 1: your access to pleasure. I'm hearing this, and I obviously
Speaker 1: know this to be true. Like, what you're saying makes
Speaker 1: a lot of sense, but it requires two people in
Speaker 1: a relationship to both be doing that work of like
Speaker 1: deconstructing the lives they've been told about sex and gender
Speaker 1: and their body and shame and finding pleasure and joy.
Speaker 1: Like if just one of them is doing it, I
Speaker 1: don't think it would maybe have the same magnificent sex
Speaker 1: effect on their life. You know, Yeah, there is magnificent
Speaker 1: sex that's available through masturbation through solo sex. So if
Speaker 1: Arthur can do nothing else like as his partner, if
Speaker 1: his wife is really just like no and no, I
Speaker 1: don't like it, I don't want it, I don't want
Speaker 1: to think about it anymore. Right then what he absolutely like,
Speaker 1: he can make a bunch of choice for himself, and
Speaker 1: one of those choices is to practice masturbation in an ecstatic, authentic, deliberate,
Speaker 1: exploratory way. Again full circle. We started out with someone
Speaker 1: who's not interested in masturbating. Yeah, our second episode with
Speaker 1: the question from Sarah, and we end up with the
Speaker 1: advice to masturbate a whole lot like in like, don't
Speaker 1: do it quick, let it take time, don't make it
Speaker 1: about orgasm, make it about what am I going to say?
Speaker 1: Make your masturbation about pleasure? Pleasure? Of course I knew
Speaker 1: pleasure was going to come back. Okay, on that note,
Speaker 1: I think we should take a quick break. No, I
Speaker 1: want to stay here and talk about sex and long
Speaker 1: term relationships forever. But yeah, probably yes, we should take
Speaker 1: a ridk Okay, and when we get back, I want
Speaker 1: to revisit some of the big lessons you covered in
Speaker 1: this episode. All right, Emily, we're back. Our final episode
Speaker 1: of this season is coming to a close. No rip
Speaker 1: my heart out, I know what am I ever going
Speaker 1: to do? In the meantime, can you just recap some
Speaker 1: of the takeaways from this episode about sex in long
Speaker 1: term relationships and in long term relationships like Arthur's yes
Speaker 1: we assume, we assume Yes fantastic idea? So four things.
Speaker 1: First of all, aging is real and normal, and sometimes
Speaker 1: it's inconvenient and disappointing, But whatever happens, the ones who
Speaker 1: get old are the lucky ones. And different people respond
Speaker 1: differently to aging, including in how they feel about sex
Speaker 1: in their aging bodies. For some people, it really is few.
Speaker 1: I never have to worry about that again, And for
Speaker 1: others it's few. I am liberated from all that nonsense,
Speaker 1: all the standards against which I was supposed to be
Speaker 1: comparing myself. Two. Couples who sustain a strong sexual connection
Speaker 1: over the long term are couples who admire and trust
Speaker 1: each other and who prioritize sex. Three. Sex is easier
Speaker 1: to prioritize when everyone involved likes the sex, So talk
Speaker 1: to each other about what kind of sex is worth wanting.
Speaker 1: And if you haven't read it yet, please go read
Speaker 1: Peggy Cliine Plots and Danna Maynard's Magnificent Sex, which is
Speaker 1: about the research on the extraordinary lovers. And finally, the
Speaker 1: ultimate real answer to having great sex in the long
Speaker 1: term is releasing yourselves from the six heteronormative scripts about
Speaker 1: how you're supposed to experience sex and who's allowed to
Speaker 1: have it or do it and what's supposed to happen
Speaker 1: while you're doing it. Wow. You mentioned so many amazing
Speaker 1: books in this episode, and they are all going to
Speaker 1: be in the show notes. Well, Emily, that puts a
Speaker 1: bow on this puppy. That wraps it right up. I
Speaker 1: just want to thank you so much for being the
Speaker 1: best sex head teacher I've ever had, DAP. It has
Speaker 1: been a delight in a pleasure. I am absolutely sincere.
Speaker 1: You have just described my actual literal reason for being
Speaker 1: on earth, which is teaching people to live with confidence
Speaker 1: and joy in their bodies, letting them know that they're normal,
Speaker 1: and teaching them how to create pleasure with science. And
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like we're doing it. You're
Speaker 1: doing it, and I'm just learning along the way. And
Speaker 1: now I'm off to finish my book. It's called Come Together,
Speaker 1: and I'm very proud of that. Oh my god, that's
Speaker 1: so good. Get it see because it's not about simultaneous orgasm.
Speaker 1: It's about people turning toward each other. Prepare yourself for
Speaker 1: Come Together, coming out in twenty twenty three. Thank you
Speaker 1: all so much for listening. Come As You Are is
Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries and Madison Wells. It's hosted
Speaker 1: and executive produced by Emily Nagowsky. You can find Emily
Speaker 1: on Instagram at e Nagowsky and on Twitter at Emily Nagowski.
Speaker 1: You can also sign up for her newsletter at Emily
Speaker 1: Nagowsky dot com, where she writes about everything from the
Speaker 1: clitterest in your mind to orgasm after having hysterectomy. It's
Speaker 1: an incredible newsletter. Highly recommended. This show is co hosted
Speaker 1: and lead produced by me Mola Board. You can find
Speaker 1: me online at Mola Board and on TikTok at podcast
Speaker 1: dot slut Sorry mom. My co producer on this show
Speaker 1: is the fabulous Brittany Brown. Our editor is Kate Parkinson Morgan.
Speaker 1: Sound design and mix by Ann Pope. Executive producers are
Speaker 1: Mia LaBelle and Lee taal Mallad. We also want to
Speaker 1: give a special thank you to the many people who
Speaker 1: talked to us while we were developing this series. That's
Speaker 1: Robin Manning, Samuel's Nadine Thornhill, Angela Chin, Aubrey Lancaster, Shine,
Speaker 1: Louise Houston, Ericamohen, Doctor China Usai, and doctor Nan Wise
Speaker 1: at Pushkin. Thanks to Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, Sophie Crane,
Speaker 1: Courtney Guarino, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, John Schnars, and Jacob
Speaker 1: Weisberg at Madison Wells. Thanks to Kylie Williams, Elizabeth Goodstein
Speaker 1: and Gg Pritzker. Additional thanks to Rich Stevens, Lindsay Edgecombe,
Speaker 1: Frolick Media, and Peter Acker at Armadillo Audio Group. Original
Speaker 1: music for this series was composed by Ameliagoski and arranged
Speaker 1: and reported by Alexandra Kalinovsky. Additional music from Epidemic Sound.
Speaker 1: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin Pods,
Speaker 1: and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin
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