1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:27,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hi, Emilia, and I'm going I have a question 2 00:00:27,356 --> 00:00:31,196 Speaker 1: for you man not alive. She's said it, and I'm 3 00:00:31,236 --> 00:00:37,636 Speaker 1: eight and I like sex and she does not. I 4 00:00:37,716 --> 00:00:41,156 Speaker 1: have a good friend in his eighties, and honestly, he's 5 00:00:41,236 --> 00:00:44,356 Speaker 1: maybe the most sexual person I know. But it is 6 00:00:44,396 --> 00:00:46,836 Speaker 1: true that what sexual looks like for him in his 7 00:00:46,916 --> 00:00:49,876 Speaker 1: eighties is different from how he looked earlier in his life. 8 00:00:50,036 --> 00:00:53,436 Speaker 1: But I think it's different in ways you might not expect. 9 00:00:57,636 --> 00:01:01,196 Speaker 1: I'm Emilinagaski and this is the Come as you Are 10 00:01:01,396 --> 00:01:06,676 Speaker 1: podcast where I answer questions about sex with science. In 11 00:01:06,716 --> 00:01:09,676 Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to be talking about out sex 12 00:01:09,716 --> 00:01:13,116 Speaker 1: in long term relationships. I'm writing my next book on this, 13 00:01:13,356 --> 00:01:16,996 Speaker 1: so it is always on my mind. Plus I have 14 00:01:17,076 --> 00:01:21,916 Speaker 1: come across so much interesting research. So here's my producer, 15 00:01:21,996 --> 00:01:26,796 Speaker 1: mo Hi mo Hi, Emilie. We've had such a great 16 00:01:26,836 --> 00:01:29,876 Speaker 1: season and I can't believe it's already coming to an end. 17 00:01:30,956 --> 00:01:34,396 Speaker 1: I feel like these episodes have been an updated like 18 00:01:34,476 --> 00:01:37,316 Speaker 1: Sex Said, what a one course for everyone like me 19 00:01:37,516 --> 00:01:41,276 Speaker 1: who didn't get the Sex said they deserved absolutely, and 20 00:01:41,956 --> 00:01:44,316 Speaker 1: people could listen to it while they were folding laundry 21 00:01:44,436 --> 00:01:48,236 Speaker 1: or commuting to work. Among the many reasons. I love podcasts. Yes, 22 00:01:49,516 --> 00:01:53,436 Speaker 1: now this question today, Okay. I immediately thought that we 23 00:01:53,476 --> 00:01:55,796 Speaker 1: needed to answer this on the show because I know 24 00:01:55,876 --> 00:02:00,276 Speaker 1: you're writing a book about sex in long term relationships. Yeah, 25 00:02:00,316 --> 00:02:04,196 Speaker 1: there are so many stereotypes too, and so many questions 26 00:02:04,556 --> 00:02:07,036 Speaker 1: about sex and aging. The New York Times this year 27 00:02:07,116 --> 00:02:09,596 Speaker 1: did a story on sex and aging and there were 28 00:02:09,636 --> 00:02:13,716 Speaker 1: like some photographs of people in situations and on Instagram. 29 00:02:13,756 --> 00:02:15,916 Speaker 1: The comments half of them were like, this is so 30 00:02:15,956 --> 00:02:18,156 Speaker 1: great for them, and the other half were like, uh, 31 00:02:18,356 --> 00:02:21,716 Speaker 1: get this off my feed sterilize my eyeballs. So I 32 00:02:21,756 --> 00:02:24,956 Speaker 1: love addressing a topic that carries this kind of taboo, 33 00:02:25,436 --> 00:02:27,556 Speaker 1: even though it's a topic that a lot of us 34 00:02:27,596 --> 00:02:29,956 Speaker 1: would love to live long enough to have it apply 35 00:02:30,076 --> 00:02:33,876 Speaker 1: to us. Totally. Lucky him that he is thinking about 36 00:02:33,916 --> 00:02:37,476 Speaker 1: this and wanting to improve his sex life at eighty. 37 00:02:37,676 --> 00:02:41,756 Speaker 1: That is incredible. So why did you choose the topic 38 00:02:41,796 --> 00:02:44,156 Speaker 1: of sex and long term relationships for your next book? 39 00:02:44,596 --> 00:02:48,596 Speaker 1: It's based on a true story. Tell me. It took 40 00:02:48,596 --> 00:02:50,196 Speaker 1: me about a year and a half to write Come 41 00:02:50,236 --> 00:02:52,556 Speaker 1: as You Are, which is a book that is all 42 00:02:52,596 --> 00:02:55,036 Speaker 1: about the science of women's sexual well being. So I 43 00:02:55,116 --> 00:02:58,716 Speaker 1: was thinking and writing and reading about sex all day, 44 00:02:58,996 --> 00:03:03,876 Speaker 1: every day, And ironically, after all that time thinking about sex, 45 00:03:04,116 --> 00:03:09,676 Speaker 1: I had zero interest in actually having any sex. As 46 00:03:09,676 --> 00:03:12,716 Speaker 1: you know, I am married to somebody, and that's somebody 47 00:03:13,036 --> 00:03:17,556 Speaker 1: because of me. Went months with nothing from me, and 48 00:03:17,596 --> 00:03:19,716 Speaker 1: then the book was published, and I traveled all over 49 00:03:19,796 --> 00:03:22,876 Speaker 1: the country talking to anyone who would listen about the 50 00:03:23,036 --> 00:03:25,556 Speaker 1: science of sex. And when I got back from those trips, 51 00:03:26,156 --> 00:03:28,636 Speaker 1: i'd be so tired that we'd try to get in 52 00:03:28,676 --> 00:03:32,156 Speaker 1: bed together and I would just cry and fall asleep. 53 00:03:33,676 --> 00:03:38,596 Speaker 1: So there were more months of nothing right, and I 54 00:03:38,676 --> 00:03:41,596 Speaker 1: missed the sex. I missed my partner, and I missed 55 00:03:41,596 --> 00:03:45,196 Speaker 1: the part of myself that plays in the erotic realm. 56 00:03:45,236 --> 00:03:49,036 Speaker 1: Like I have always imagined myself having an erotic connection 57 00:03:49,036 --> 00:03:52,596 Speaker 1: that develops and grows with a certain special someone far 58 00:03:52,676 --> 00:03:56,796 Speaker 1: into our old age. I want us to be giggling 59 00:03:56,876 --> 00:03:59,436 Speaker 1: and licking and snuggling until we're ninety five, if we're 60 00:03:59,476 --> 00:04:02,996 Speaker 1: lucky enough to live that long. So here I was 61 00:04:03,556 --> 00:04:08,676 Speaker 1: sixty years ahead of schedule already losing that, and I 62 00:04:08,836 --> 00:04:12,956 Speaker 1: was was pretty shocking. But I had spent all that 63 00:04:12,996 --> 00:04:15,836 Speaker 1: time reading a lot of science about sexuality, so there 64 00:04:15,876 --> 00:04:18,476 Speaker 1: were some things I knew about sex and a long 65 00:04:18,556 --> 00:04:24,076 Speaker 1: term relationship that helped us find our way back to 66 00:04:24,116 --> 00:04:27,236 Speaker 1: each other. But it wasn't stuff I was finding in 67 00:04:27,276 --> 00:04:29,996 Speaker 1: other books. So this new book is the book that 68 00:04:30,436 --> 00:04:33,836 Speaker 1: I wanted to read in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. It's 69 00:04:33,916 --> 00:04:37,156 Speaker 1: the science that helped us stay connected even through twenty 70 00:04:37,236 --> 00:04:40,236 Speaker 1: sixteen and twenty seventeen. And then oh gosh, here's a 71 00:04:40,236 --> 00:04:43,436 Speaker 1: global pandemic. Right, So this is the science I couldn't 72 00:04:43,476 --> 00:04:47,076 Speaker 1: find another books, but that I knew because I was 73 00:04:47,116 --> 00:04:50,276 Speaker 1: reading the science and because I was putting it to 74 00:04:50,316 --> 00:04:53,396 Speaker 1: work in my own relationship. It seems like you are 75 00:04:53,876 --> 00:04:57,316 Speaker 1: perfectly equipped to answer today's question. So are you ready 76 00:04:57,476 --> 00:05:03,076 Speaker 1: to hear the whole thing? So ready? My name is 77 00:05:03,196 --> 00:05:07,916 Speaker 1: archer Man. Not alive, she said in it five and 78 00:05:06,636 --> 00:05:11,676 Speaker 1: I and I'll like shick and she does not. I 79 00:05:11,876 --> 00:05:17,076 Speaker 1: take all natural to help me to get my potential. 80 00:05:17,796 --> 00:05:22,636 Speaker 1: So why is it she don't like to have relations 81 00:05:22,716 --> 00:05:28,076 Speaker 1: with me when we can? Are you supposed to have 82 00:05:28,116 --> 00:05:30,636 Speaker 1: sex when you get that old? What I'm saying if 83 00:05:30,676 --> 00:05:33,836 Speaker 1: you want it, I do want it. I love to 84 00:05:33,996 --> 00:05:37,556 Speaker 1: have it, and so I just want to nip. There's 85 00:05:37,636 --> 00:05:42,636 Speaker 1: sometimes a rule on that. So that's all I asked 86 00:05:42,716 --> 00:05:49,436 Speaker 1: him by now and have a good day. I love 87 00:05:49,556 --> 00:05:52,996 Speaker 1: Arthur so much. On a certain level, it's really heartbreaking 88 00:05:53,076 --> 00:05:55,996 Speaker 1: to hear like the loneliness and isolation. Why doesn't my 89 00:05:56,076 --> 00:05:59,836 Speaker 1: wife like having sex with me? And also I feel 90 00:05:59,876 --> 00:06:04,756 Speaker 1: really optimistic and hopeful about it, because if he's willing 91 00:06:04,836 --> 00:06:09,356 Speaker 1: to ask the question out loud, that suggests to me 92 00:06:09,996 --> 00:06:12,636 Speaker 1: that they might be able to answer the question together. 93 00:06:13,676 --> 00:06:16,316 Speaker 1: You were saying that you have been researching and reading 94 00:06:16,396 --> 00:06:20,516 Speaker 1: all about on long term sexual relationships. Can you explain 95 00:06:20,556 --> 00:06:22,796 Speaker 1: to us what science that we might need to know 96 00:06:22,956 --> 00:06:26,396 Speaker 1: in order to answer this question. Yes, I would love 97 00:06:26,436 --> 00:06:29,556 Speaker 1: nothing more. It's one of my favorite things to talk about, 98 00:06:30,556 --> 00:06:33,356 Speaker 1: so to begin with, of course, there are no rules. 99 00:06:33,436 --> 00:06:35,836 Speaker 1: That's what Arthur is asking, and if he has listened 100 00:06:35,836 --> 00:06:37,636 Speaker 1: to the rest of the series, he will know that 101 00:06:37,676 --> 00:06:40,476 Speaker 1: by now. And I would point out that Arthur doesn't 102 00:06:40,476 --> 00:06:42,556 Speaker 1: actually tell us how long he and his wife have 103 00:06:42,636 --> 00:06:45,596 Speaker 1: been together. Maybe they have been together for fifty years, 104 00:06:45,716 --> 00:06:47,636 Speaker 1: or maybe they just met and got married five or 105 00:06:47,636 --> 00:06:50,596 Speaker 1: ten years ago or less. We don't know. I was 106 00:06:50,636 --> 00:06:53,436 Speaker 1: wondering before we get too far into this answer, like, 107 00:06:53,836 --> 00:06:56,996 Speaker 1: how do you define a long term relationship? Oh, that's 108 00:06:56,996 --> 00:07:00,196 Speaker 1: a really great question. Yeah, what counts is long term. 109 00:07:01,276 --> 00:07:04,356 Speaker 1: For me, it's any relationship that has lasted long enough 110 00:07:04,476 --> 00:07:07,676 Speaker 1: for things to change. So you look back and you're like, wow, 111 00:07:07,716 --> 00:07:10,196 Speaker 1: things have really changed since we first got together, and 112 00:07:10,316 --> 00:07:14,756 Speaker 1: maybe that's three months, or maybe it's ten years. I 113 00:07:14,836 --> 00:07:18,276 Speaker 1: love that definition because I have been with my girlfriend 114 00:07:18,276 --> 00:07:21,116 Speaker 1: for three years, but we've got together in twenty nineteen, 115 00:07:21,196 --> 00:07:25,956 Speaker 1: and it feels like we are so close. And you know, 116 00:07:26,076 --> 00:07:28,756 Speaker 1: this is explaining to me the phenomenon of the pandemic 117 00:07:28,796 --> 00:07:33,596 Speaker 1: couple basically having a really intense connection. Yeah, it's a 118 00:07:33,596 --> 00:07:36,916 Speaker 1: phenomenon in social psychology that people who have to solve 119 00:07:36,956 --> 00:07:39,156 Speaker 1: a problem that they can only solve by solving it 120 00:07:39,196 --> 00:07:44,116 Speaker 1: together naturally bond in a really deep way. But regardless 121 00:07:44,156 --> 00:07:47,236 Speaker 1: of how long people have been together, regardless of their 122 00:07:47,276 --> 00:07:50,636 Speaker 1: age or their health status, regardless of their genders or 123 00:07:50,676 --> 00:07:55,036 Speaker 1: any other characteristic of their identities or relationship structure. What 124 00:07:55,196 --> 00:07:59,796 Speaker 1: the research shows me is that couples who sustain a 125 00:07:59,876 --> 00:08:05,076 Speaker 1: strong sexual connection over many years have two things in common. First, 126 00:08:05,676 --> 00:08:10,116 Speaker 1: they are friends who trust and admire each other, and second, 127 00:08:10,996 --> 00:08:16,156 Speaker 1: they prioritize sex. They decide that it matters for their 128 00:08:16,196 --> 00:08:20,836 Speaker 1: relationship and they're shared lives, that they close the door 129 00:08:20,956 --> 00:08:23,036 Speaker 1: on all the other things they could be doing, right, 130 00:08:23,076 --> 00:08:24,956 Speaker 1: like they maybe they've got kids to raise, or work 131 00:08:24,956 --> 00:08:27,516 Speaker 1: to go to, or letters to their representatives to write, 132 00:08:28,276 --> 00:08:31,436 Speaker 1: other friends or in family to spend time with. Maybe 133 00:08:31,676 --> 00:08:35,436 Speaker 1: they want to sleep. God forbid, we are busy, right, 134 00:08:36,196 --> 00:08:39,596 Speaker 1: But these folks who sustain a strong sexual connection over 135 00:08:39,636 --> 00:08:44,636 Speaker 1: the long term stop everything else and just turn toward 136 00:08:44,716 --> 00:08:51,436 Speaker 1: each other's erotic selves. And my question is, why would 137 00:08:51,476 --> 00:08:56,916 Speaker 1: anyone do that? Why stop all the other really important 138 00:08:56,916 --> 00:09:00,116 Speaker 1: things in our lives and do this, let's face it, 139 00:09:00,236 --> 00:09:04,996 Speaker 1: pretty silly thing that humans do. So I have actually 140 00:09:05,036 --> 00:09:07,476 Speaker 1: asked people what is it that you like when you 141 00:09:07,556 --> 00:09:09,996 Speaker 1: like sex? And what is it that you want when 142 00:09:10,036 --> 00:09:13,276 Speaker 1: you want sex with a partner? And the first thing 143 00:09:13,316 --> 00:09:19,516 Speaker 1: people say is connection. We want and like and long 144 00:09:19,716 --> 00:09:25,796 Speaker 1: for the vulnerability and authenticity and co presence with another 145 00:09:25,916 --> 00:09:29,556 Speaker 1: person that sex can bring. And I hear that so 146 00:09:29,676 --> 00:09:33,556 Speaker 1: powerfully in Arthur's question. And the second thing that people 147 00:09:33,596 --> 00:09:35,876 Speaker 1: say they want and like about sex with a partner, 148 00:09:36,676 --> 00:09:39,236 Speaker 1: I mean, I bet you could guess this. The second 149 00:09:39,276 --> 00:09:44,076 Speaker 1: thing people say, after connection, they want pleasure. But let's 150 00:09:44,116 --> 00:09:48,196 Speaker 1: think through how this wanting and longing for connection and 151 00:09:48,236 --> 00:09:52,196 Speaker 1: pleasure actually plays out for a couple like this, a 152 00:09:52,236 --> 00:09:58,676 Speaker 1: couple with a desire differential. Let's imagine Arthur and his 153 00:09:58,716 --> 00:10:02,716 Speaker 1: wife in a sex therapist office. Picture of them. They're 154 00:10:02,756 --> 00:10:05,716 Speaker 1: They're sitting on a couch, probably at opposite ends of 155 00:10:05,756 --> 00:10:09,156 Speaker 1: the couch. I want us to give them the A 156 00:10:09,396 --> 00:10:13,836 Speaker 1: real sex therapist and researcher, doctor Peggy Klein Plots, who 157 00:10:14,036 --> 00:10:18,996 Speaker 1: is the leader of the Optimal Sexual Experiences Research Group 158 00:10:19,156 --> 00:10:22,596 Speaker 1: in Canada. I'm a gigantic fan. Her book is called 159 00:10:22,636 --> 00:10:26,476 Speaker 1: Magnificent Sex. Please everyone read it. It will change your life. 160 00:10:26,956 --> 00:10:31,956 Speaker 1: She studies people who have extraordinary sex lives to find 161 00:10:31,996 --> 00:10:36,556 Speaker 1: out what they can teach couples like Arthur and his wife. 162 00:10:38,116 --> 00:10:42,836 Speaker 1: So there they are sitting in her office, and Arthur's 163 00:10:42,876 --> 00:10:45,756 Speaker 1: wife might say something like, I know he wants to 164 00:10:45,796 --> 00:10:49,156 Speaker 1: have sex, but I'd be happy if we never had 165 00:10:49,156 --> 00:10:51,036 Speaker 1: sex again in my life. I'm sorry, that's just how 166 00:10:51,076 --> 00:10:55,596 Speaker 1: it is. Peggy's response would be, tell me more about 167 00:10:55,596 --> 00:11:00,036 Speaker 1: the sex you don't want. As Arthur says, he likes 168 00:11:00,036 --> 00:11:04,396 Speaker 1: it and his wife doesn't like it, so probably the 169 00:11:04,436 --> 00:11:07,756 Speaker 1: sex that Arthur's wife will describe might not be very pleasurable. 170 00:11:08,796 --> 00:11:11,316 Speaker 1: Maybe she spent a lot of years feeling sex was 171 00:11:11,716 --> 00:11:15,476 Speaker 1: something she needed to do out of obligation, or something 172 00:11:15,516 --> 00:11:19,196 Speaker 1: that she did because he wanted it and not because 173 00:11:19,196 --> 00:11:23,596 Speaker 1: she wanted or liked it. Maybe it's even painful, maybe 174 00:11:23,636 --> 00:11:27,756 Speaker 1: it's boring. Whatever the case, what we often find is 175 00:11:27,796 --> 00:11:31,396 Speaker 1: that a difficulty like this with desire is not actually 176 00:11:32,036 --> 00:11:35,596 Speaker 1: because a person doesn't want sex exactly. The problem is 177 00:11:35,596 --> 00:11:41,036 Speaker 1: they don't like the sex that's available. The way Peggy 178 00:11:41,076 --> 00:11:44,756 Speaker 1: says it is sometimes low desire is evidence of good judgment, 179 00:11:45,196 --> 00:11:46,956 Speaker 1: and my way of saying it, the thing I say 180 00:11:46,956 --> 00:11:49,716 Speaker 1: over and over is that pleasure is the measure of 181 00:11:49,796 --> 00:11:52,996 Speaker 1: sexual well being. So, as Peggy describes her interactions with 182 00:11:53,036 --> 00:11:55,996 Speaker 1: couples like this in the past, she has said things like, well, 183 00:11:56,436 --> 00:11:59,076 Speaker 1: I rather like sex, but if I were having that sex, 184 00:11:59,116 --> 00:12:01,796 Speaker 1: I wouldn't want it either. And so her next question 185 00:12:01,836 --> 00:12:05,796 Speaker 1: to clients is what kind of sex is worth wanting? 186 00:12:06,836 --> 00:12:09,276 Speaker 1: The couples who sustain a strong sexual connection of the 187 00:12:09,356 --> 00:12:14,836 Speaker 1: long term have sex worth wanting. And when I say wanting, 188 00:12:15,196 --> 00:12:18,916 Speaker 1: this is the essential caveat. I'm not talking about spontaneous desire. 189 00:12:18,956 --> 00:12:22,996 Speaker 1: Remember back from the Spontaneous Desire episode, These couples have sex, 190 00:12:23,076 --> 00:12:25,916 Speaker 1: not because they're so horny they can't help themselves, but 191 00:12:26,036 --> 00:12:29,036 Speaker 1: because they feel that it does good things for their 192 00:12:29,076 --> 00:12:33,036 Speaker 1: relationship and for their shared lives and for their individual spirits, 193 00:12:33,076 --> 00:12:35,676 Speaker 1: that they not do all the other things that are 194 00:12:35,676 --> 00:12:37,996 Speaker 1: so important in our lives and they just spend this 195 00:12:38,076 --> 00:12:42,356 Speaker 1: time with each other. I love that you started answering 196 00:12:42,356 --> 00:12:47,836 Speaker 1: this question talking about basically their relationship and their emotional selves. So, 197 00:12:47,876 --> 00:12:50,276 Speaker 1: if we're going to talk about long term relationships, I 198 00:12:50,316 --> 00:12:53,676 Speaker 1: think one of those questions that comes up all the 199 00:12:53,716 --> 00:12:57,516 Speaker 1: time for people in long term relationships is the question 200 00:12:57,556 --> 00:13:01,516 Speaker 1: of frequency, like are we doing it enough? Or is 201 00:13:01,556 --> 00:13:04,796 Speaker 1: our relationship at risk if we haven't had sex in 202 00:13:05,476 --> 00:13:08,636 Speaker 1: X period of time however long that is. And there 203 00:13:08,716 --> 00:13:12,356 Speaker 1: is so much cultural messaging around what's enough sex in 204 00:13:12,396 --> 00:13:16,036 Speaker 1: a long term relationship? What regular sex quote unquote should 205 00:13:16,036 --> 00:13:18,996 Speaker 1: look like in a long term relationship. Yeah, and you 206 00:13:19,036 --> 00:13:20,476 Speaker 1: know what the answer is going to be, because you 207 00:13:20,636 --> 00:13:26,596 Speaker 1: use that word should stop shooting on ourselves. And I 208 00:13:26,636 --> 00:13:28,436 Speaker 1: do I get this question all the time. How often 209 00:13:28,476 --> 00:13:31,156 Speaker 1: are people supposed to have sex? Or how often do 210 00:13:31,276 --> 00:13:36,076 Speaker 1: couples have sex according to science? People definitely want that answer, 211 00:13:36,276 --> 00:13:38,556 Speaker 1: but the science answer, it's not going to help you, 212 00:13:39,236 --> 00:13:42,956 Speaker 1: and sometimes the science answer can do harm. Right, So 213 00:13:43,356 --> 00:13:46,676 Speaker 1: how do science get this answer? We ask a thousand 214 00:13:46,716 --> 00:13:50,156 Speaker 1: couples how frequently do you have sex? And then we 215 00:13:50,196 --> 00:13:52,276 Speaker 1: add their answers together and divide it by the number 216 00:13:52,276 --> 00:13:55,796 Speaker 1: of couples, and there we have the average frequency of 217 00:13:55,836 --> 00:13:59,756 Speaker 1: couples in long term relationships. So you hear that number 218 00:14:00,116 --> 00:14:04,796 Speaker 1: and you can't not compare yourself to that number and 219 00:14:05,036 --> 00:14:07,756 Speaker 1: judge yourself as doing it right or doing it wrong, 220 00:14:07,876 --> 00:14:10,516 Speaker 1: like few, we're better than those people, or oh no, 221 00:14:10,636 --> 00:14:15,076 Speaker 1: there must be something wrong. But in reality, what in 222 00:14:15,116 --> 00:14:18,676 Speaker 1: the world do those people who participated in their research 223 00:14:19,876 --> 00:14:24,676 Speaker 1: have to do with you and your sex life? Nothing? Right? 224 00:14:25,276 --> 00:14:27,436 Speaker 1: You don't know those people. Those people don't know your life, 225 00:14:28,436 --> 00:14:31,156 Speaker 1: So I don't actually give the answer to the question 226 00:14:31,676 --> 00:14:35,076 Speaker 1: how often does the average couple have sex? Because it's 227 00:14:35,116 --> 00:14:38,156 Speaker 1: you can't hear it and not use it against yourself 228 00:14:38,196 --> 00:14:41,996 Speaker 1: as a way to decide that you're not normal. Like 229 00:14:42,036 --> 00:14:44,076 Speaker 1: if you have sex more often than those people, than 230 00:14:44,116 --> 00:14:45,996 Speaker 1: you're normal and you feel a certain way about that, 231 00:14:46,036 --> 00:14:47,476 Speaker 1: and if you have sex less off and you feel 232 00:14:47,516 --> 00:14:50,076 Speaker 1: a different way, and it's a reflex like you cannot 233 00:14:50,076 --> 00:14:53,716 Speaker 1: help it. But again, the sexual frequency of all those 234 00:14:53,716 --> 00:14:58,276 Speaker 1: other couples has nothing to do with you and your 235 00:14:58,276 --> 00:15:02,436 Speaker 1: relationship and this season in your life. That scientific data 236 00:15:02,716 --> 00:15:07,116 Speaker 1: is relevant to literally no one. It is deadly squat 237 00:15:07,156 --> 00:15:10,996 Speaker 1: It is meaningless. Sorry. I know people want a number. 238 00:15:11,036 --> 00:15:13,636 Speaker 1: People want the number so bad. Y'all can look it 239 00:15:13,716 --> 00:15:15,116 Speaker 1: up if you want to, But I'm not going to 240 00:15:15,156 --> 00:15:18,356 Speaker 1: be the one who hands you that weapon. I found 241 00:15:18,356 --> 00:15:20,356 Speaker 1: the number very recently, in fact, while we were working 242 00:15:20,356 --> 00:15:22,356 Speaker 1: on this show together, and it caused me to spiral 243 00:15:22,396 --> 00:15:25,476 Speaker 1: in my relationship that I wasn't doing it enough. And 244 00:15:25,516 --> 00:15:31,836 Speaker 1: then there's also the horrible, terrible trope of I don't 245 00:15:31,836 --> 00:15:34,436 Speaker 1: even know if I should say it, of lesbian bed 246 00:15:34,516 --> 00:15:37,276 Speaker 1: death that I'm so afraid of. Girl. I have a 247 00:15:37,276 --> 00:15:41,116 Speaker 1: whole chapter on lesbian bed death in the book You Do, Yes, 248 00:15:41,796 --> 00:15:45,076 Speaker 1: Lucky Me. And the thing the thing to know is 249 00:15:45,116 --> 00:15:48,796 Speaker 1: that there isn't really a strong relationship between frequency of 250 00:15:48,836 --> 00:15:53,956 Speaker 1: sex and sex or relationship satisfaction. You know what is 251 00:15:53,996 --> 00:16:00,396 Speaker 1: predictive of sex and relationship satisfaction pleasure? It is whether 252 00:16:00,516 --> 00:16:03,356 Speaker 1: or not you like the sex you are having. And 253 00:16:03,476 --> 00:16:08,396 Speaker 1: to compare your relationship to some standard in the research 254 00:16:09,276 --> 00:16:15,516 Speaker 1: is to apply cis heteronormative, patriarchal standards to your sex life. 255 00:16:17,596 --> 00:16:20,276 Speaker 1: You're letting the man win if you let yourself spiral 256 00:16:20,876 --> 00:16:24,756 Speaker 1: about sexual frequency. And while it might be the case 257 00:16:24,796 --> 00:16:28,396 Speaker 1: that lesbian couples have sex less frequently as their relationship 258 00:16:28,436 --> 00:16:31,636 Speaker 1: goes on, that's true for lots of different kinds of couples. 259 00:16:31,916 --> 00:16:34,716 Speaker 1: And also it's the case that those couples, compared to 260 00:16:34,716 --> 00:16:40,236 Speaker 1: heterosexual couples, have more oral sex, more variety of sexual behaviors. 261 00:16:40,276 --> 00:16:42,956 Speaker 1: They're more likely to say I love you, and they 262 00:16:42,996 --> 00:16:46,916 Speaker 1: have sex longer. If that matters to you, Yeah, it does. 263 00:16:47,116 --> 00:16:50,396 Speaker 1: It clicks for me. That definitely resonates. So it's not 264 00:16:50,436 --> 00:16:53,436 Speaker 1: the frequency that matters, it's the quality, whether or not 265 00:16:53,516 --> 00:16:57,196 Speaker 1: you like it. Okay, So the other big elephant in 266 00:16:57,196 --> 00:16:59,476 Speaker 1: the room, which you talked about right at the beginning, 267 00:16:59,836 --> 00:17:02,396 Speaker 1: is how your body changes as you age. And when 268 00:17:02,396 --> 00:17:06,956 Speaker 1: you talk about a long term relationship, you are also 269 00:17:07,396 --> 00:17:11,836 Speaker 1: inherently talking about aging. What do we need to know 270 00:17:11,996 --> 00:17:18,316 Speaker 1: about sex and aging? Oh? Yes, it's real that bodies 271 00:17:18,396 --> 00:17:21,396 Speaker 1: change over time. For sis gender men, testosterol levels drop 272 00:17:21,796 --> 00:17:24,316 Speaker 1: across their adult lives. I think the peak is in 273 00:17:24,396 --> 00:17:26,836 Speaker 1: the late teens, and by the time you get to 274 00:17:26,876 --> 00:17:31,076 Speaker 1: your sixties, seventies, eighties, erections take more time, and maybe 275 00:17:31,156 --> 00:17:33,196 Speaker 1: you know if you're lying down, your erection is going 276 00:17:33,196 --> 00:17:35,596 Speaker 1: to point where the ceiling instead of pointing at your chin. 277 00:17:36,356 --> 00:17:38,916 Speaker 1: For sis gender women, the hormone changes of menopause can 278 00:17:38,996 --> 00:17:41,916 Speaker 1: result in physical changes like thinning of the tissue of 279 00:17:41,956 --> 00:17:45,556 Speaker 1: the vulva and vagina, which can lead to tearing, which 280 00:17:45,556 --> 00:17:48,076 Speaker 1: can lead to pain, which of course is going to 281 00:17:48,116 --> 00:17:50,796 Speaker 1: reduce your interest in sex. But a lot of other 282 00:17:50,876 --> 00:17:54,556 Speaker 1: changes that are sometimes attributed to menopause, including reduced sexual interests, 283 00:17:54,636 --> 00:17:58,796 Speaker 1: aren't actually about hormones. They're about psychology, how you feel 284 00:17:59,396 --> 00:18:02,796 Speaker 1: about your changing body and how the other symptoms are 285 00:18:02,796 --> 00:18:05,796 Speaker 1: affecting your sense of who you are as a person. 286 00:18:06,676 --> 00:18:10,276 Speaker 1: And of course, for transfolks will be completely unsurprised to 287 00:18:10,316 --> 00:18:13,356 Speaker 1: know that there is a dearth of research about aging insects. 288 00:18:14,836 --> 00:18:17,436 Speaker 1: I can say that for anyone who has or ever 289 00:18:17,556 --> 00:18:22,436 Speaker 1: has had a uterus, I would recommend heathercorn As Menopause book, 290 00:18:22,516 --> 00:18:25,556 Speaker 1: What fresh hell is this? This book is like your 291 00:18:25,596 --> 00:18:28,716 Speaker 1: non binary best friend has become an edrocrinologist and they 292 00:18:28,876 --> 00:18:33,156 Speaker 1: take no shit. I would also point you to Amassani, 293 00:18:33,236 --> 00:18:36,876 Speaker 1: Bernie Scott's multimedia project Black Girl's Guide to Surviving Menopause. 294 00:18:37,876 --> 00:18:44,236 Speaker 1: I think gen X's really pushing progress so that as 295 00:18:44,316 --> 00:18:48,036 Speaker 1: we my generation gets to menopause, we are not accepting 296 00:18:48,036 --> 00:18:51,836 Speaker 1: the cis gender, heteronormative, medicalized crap the Boomers had to experience, 297 00:18:52,236 --> 00:18:55,076 Speaker 1: and that includes not making assumptions about what's going to 298 00:18:55,116 --> 00:18:58,196 Speaker 1: happen to our sex lives on the other side of menopause. 299 00:18:58,436 --> 00:19:00,516 Speaker 1: We want to be who we are without conforming to 300 00:19:00,596 --> 00:19:04,356 Speaker 1: somebody else's narrative of who they say we're supposed to be. 301 00:19:05,116 --> 00:19:09,076 Speaker 1: And it is real. While I say that people respond 302 00:19:09,156 --> 00:19:11,676 Speaker 1: differently to aging, for some people, really it does feel 303 00:19:11,676 --> 00:19:15,596 Speaker 1: like I never have to worry about that again, in 304 00:19:15,636 --> 00:19:19,036 Speaker 1: which case do you. But for others it's now I 305 00:19:19,076 --> 00:19:22,716 Speaker 1: am liberated from all those ridiculous standards against which I 306 00:19:22,756 --> 00:19:25,276 Speaker 1: was always supposed to be measuring myself. None of that 307 00:19:25,316 --> 00:19:27,596 Speaker 1: applies to me now, and I am free to do 308 00:19:27,636 --> 00:19:31,076 Speaker 1: what I want. I will be sure to put the 309 00:19:31,116 --> 00:19:33,716 Speaker 1: links to those books in the show notes. Oh, that'd 310 00:19:33,716 --> 00:19:36,876 Speaker 1: be great, thank you. Of course. I have heard tell 311 00:19:36,996 --> 00:19:42,036 Speaker 1: of the papery and often tearing post menopausal vagina, and 312 00:19:42,116 --> 00:19:43,516 Speaker 1: I have to say the first time I heard the 313 00:19:43,516 --> 00:19:45,996 Speaker 1: word papery. I was like, it was like times slowed down. 314 00:19:46,116 --> 00:19:50,036 Speaker 1: I was like, what do you mean PAPERI And medical 315 00:19:50,036 --> 00:19:55,396 Speaker 1: treatments for that do exist, hormonal vaginal implant treatments and 316 00:19:55,516 --> 00:19:58,516 Speaker 1: by the time you get to menopause they'll be even 317 00:19:58,556 --> 00:20:04,596 Speaker 1: more in better interventions. M okay. So Arthur asks, are 318 00:20:04,636 --> 00:20:06,876 Speaker 1: you supposed to have sex when you get this old? 319 00:20:07,036 --> 00:20:11,396 Speaker 1: And obviously, like you said, there are no rule, no obligations, 320 00:20:11,476 --> 00:20:15,596 Speaker 1: but you are saying like it's normal for your body 321 00:20:15,636 --> 00:20:19,796 Speaker 1: to have big changes. Yeah, like your body changes so 322 00:20:19,876 --> 00:20:23,676 Speaker 1: much when you age. In general, your body and your brain. Yeah, 323 00:20:23,716 --> 00:20:26,796 Speaker 1: oh okay, tell me more, you know. Sex therapist and 324 00:20:26,836 --> 00:20:31,116 Speaker 1: neuroscientist doctor Nan Wise. She writes that as you age, 325 00:20:31,156 --> 00:20:34,396 Speaker 1: all of your senses stored of start to diminish in 326 00:20:34,476 --> 00:20:37,156 Speaker 1: their intensity. The connections between your body and your brain 327 00:20:37,636 --> 00:20:41,076 Speaker 1: kind of wear out a little bit. Your eyesight, you're 328 00:20:41,116 --> 00:20:46,236 Speaker 1: hearing your eyesights as the person who is currently wearing 329 00:20:46,276 --> 00:20:49,836 Speaker 1: reading glasses to look at her screen, So your eyesight, 330 00:20:49,876 --> 00:20:53,116 Speaker 1: you're hearing your sense of smell and taste, and the 331 00:20:53,196 --> 00:20:57,076 Speaker 1: same goes for your sense of arousal. So that's called interreception, 332 00:20:57,156 --> 00:21:01,356 Speaker 1: your awareness of your own body sensations and so orgasm 333 00:21:01,596 --> 00:21:06,596 Speaker 1: and other genital sensations and arousal might feel less intense too. 334 00:21:06,876 --> 00:21:09,956 Speaker 1: So if your idea of sex worth want is sex 335 00:21:09,996 --> 00:21:13,076 Speaker 1: that is the same as when you were younger, or 336 00:21:13,156 --> 00:21:16,596 Speaker 1: sex that is full of intense, spontaneous desire and lots 337 00:21:16,596 --> 00:21:21,476 Speaker 1: of athletic positions, then maybe you will feel dissatisfied with 338 00:21:21,516 --> 00:21:26,916 Speaker 1: sex as you age. But there's a very simple fix 339 00:21:26,996 --> 00:21:29,276 Speaker 1: for that. All you have to change in order to 340 00:21:29,276 --> 00:21:33,716 Speaker 1: increase your satisfaction is shift your understanding that the sex 341 00:21:33,716 --> 00:21:36,076 Speaker 1: that is accessible to you in your body as it 342 00:21:36,236 --> 00:21:40,036 Speaker 1: is right now, as long as it's pleasurable and of 343 00:21:40,036 --> 00:21:44,396 Speaker 1: course consensual, it's worth having if you decided is worth having. 344 00:21:44,676 --> 00:21:48,036 Speaker 1: There's no rule. There's just what rule sex, however you 345 00:21:48,076 --> 00:21:50,876 Speaker 1: define it, what role it plays in your life and 346 00:21:50,916 --> 00:21:54,556 Speaker 1: your relationship. Can I let me plug here Nan Wise's book. 347 00:21:54,556 --> 00:21:57,276 Speaker 1: It's called Why Good Sex Matters. It is hilarious. So 348 00:21:57,316 --> 00:22:00,436 Speaker 1: if you like humor and affective neuroscience together, this is 349 00:22:00,436 --> 00:22:03,436 Speaker 1: a book for you niche audience that I think might 350 00:22:03,476 --> 00:22:08,236 Speaker 1: be listening right now. In fact, okay, let's take a 351 00:22:08,276 --> 00:22:10,476 Speaker 1: break and when we get back and we can talk 352 00:22:10,516 --> 00:22:14,876 Speaker 1: about how we apply the science to hopefully give Arthur 353 00:22:14,956 --> 00:22:18,476 Speaker 1: and his wife an answer to the question of like, 354 00:22:18,596 --> 00:22:32,876 Speaker 1: what is sex that is worth wanting? Fantastic, So, Emily, 355 00:22:33,116 --> 00:22:37,316 Speaker 1: you and I are here answering probably my favorite question 356 00:22:37,476 --> 00:22:42,076 Speaker 1: that we've gotten all season from this absolute king. He's 357 00:22:42,196 --> 00:22:45,156 Speaker 1: eighty years old and his wife is seventy five. Let 358 00:22:45,156 --> 00:22:47,276 Speaker 1: me just play a little bit of the clip to 359 00:22:47,356 --> 00:22:50,196 Speaker 1: remind you, are you supposed to have six when you 360 00:22:50,236 --> 00:22:53,116 Speaker 1: get that old? I'm saying, if you want it, I 361 00:22:53,236 --> 00:22:55,596 Speaker 1: do want it. Do you think this is the oldest 362 00:22:55,636 --> 00:22:58,036 Speaker 1: person you've ever gotten a question from? Oh, he's not 363 00:22:58,116 --> 00:23:02,436 Speaker 1: the oldest people in their eighties? Is the oldest that 364 00:23:02,556 --> 00:23:05,876 Speaker 1: I hear from. I have not yet been the teacher 365 00:23:05,916 --> 00:23:09,876 Speaker 1: to a nonogenarian, but for example, a woman attended a 366 00:23:09,876 --> 00:23:12,036 Speaker 1: workshop I led, who told me afterward that she was 367 00:23:12,116 --> 00:23:16,196 Speaker 1: there because she had recently had her first orgasm and 368 00:23:16,236 --> 00:23:19,716 Speaker 1: she was seventy five. Oh wow, good for her. There 369 00:23:19,756 --> 00:23:21,996 Speaker 1: was also a couple who attended a workshop I led. 370 00:23:22,956 --> 00:23:25,356 Speaker 1: I'll be honest, they were definitely in their seventies, but 371 00:23:25,436 --> 00:23:28,116 Speaker 1: they were there for fun. They did not actually need 372 00:23:28,116 --> 00:23:32,996 Speaker 1: any help from me. Also, very good for them. Like 373 00:23:33,356 --> 00:23:35,716 Speaker 1: I think everyone saw that news story a few years 374 00:23:35,716 --> 00:23:38,996 Speaker 1: ago about how STIs are on the rise and nursing 375 00:23:38,996 --> 00:23:41,316 Speaker 1: homes and how seniors gets and there was a Parks 376 00:23:41,316 --> 00:23:44,436 Speaker 1: and rac episode about teaching seniors to use condoms. Yes, 377 00:23:45,076 --> 00:23:47,396 Speaker 1: I remember that. Today we are here to talk about 378 00:23:47,396 --> 00:23:49,756 Speaker 1: safe sex. I know this is a personal question, but 379 00:23:50,036 --> 00:23:53,276 Speaker 1: how many of you out there are sexually active? Oh? My, 380 00:23:53,636 --> 00:23:57,076 Speaker 1: I have two partners often at the same time. Wow, 381 00:23:57,396 --> 00:24:00,596 Speaker 1: thank you. We know old people bang, but we don't 382 00:24:00,596 --> 00:24:04,316 Speaker 1: talk about it. Culturally. It's like we just de sexualize 383 00:24:04,396 --> 00:24:07,356 Speaker 1: people as they age. Yeah. I kind of wish it 384 00:24:07,396 --> 00:24:10,676 Speaker 1: were as simple as just de sexual I think a 385 00:24:10,676 --> 00:24:13,916 Speaker 1: lot of people are raised to feel that older people's 386 00:24:13,916 --> 00:24:18,596 Speaker 1: sexuality is like ick, because we're taught that if a 387 00:24:18,596 --> 00:24:22,876 Speaker 1: person's body doesn't conform with this fictional cultural ideal, which 388 00:24:23,036 --> 00:24:27,596 Speaker 1: definitely involves a young adult body, then those people shouldn't 389 00:24:27,596 --> 00:24:30,316 Speaker 1: be having sex. And the thing is all of that 390 00:24:30,356 --> 00:24:33,596 Speaker 1: stuff is a lie, and we get to choose to 391 00:24:33,836 --> 00:24:38,556 Speaker 1: challenge that experience that in ourselves and our relationships with 392 00:24:38,676 --> 00:24:42,076 Speaker 1: all the people around us. We want to be those 393 00:24:42,116 --> 00:24:45,876 Speaker 1: people at that sex workshop when we're eighty, or calling 394 00:24:45,876 --> 00:24:47,956 Speaker 1: into a sex hotline when we're eighty. We do want 395 00:24:47,956 --> 00:24:53,396 Speaker 1: to be those people so I want to give Arthur 396 00:24:53,436 --> 00:24:56,436 Speaker 1: and his wife some real practical advice, and also for 397 00:24:56,476 --> 00:24:59,676 Speaker 1: every couple that's maybe in a long term relationship, or 398 00:24:59,716 --> 00:25:04,396 Speaker 1: maybe somebody who is confronting age and their body changing. 399 00:25:05,116 --> 00:25:09,076 Speaker 1: What would be your like practical day to day advice 400 00:25:09,556 --> 00:25:14,476 Speaker 1: for people in this situation. This is a variation on 401 00:25:14,476 --> 00:25:16,396 Speaker 1: the question I'm asked most by people in long term 402 00:25:16,476 --> 00:25:19,636 Speaker 1: relationships is what to do about a desire differential? So 403 00:25:19,756 --> 00:25:22,956 Speaker 1: for anyone who is a higher desire partner in a relationship, 404 00:25:23,596 --> 00:25:26,756 Speaker 1: once the relationship is stable, because again, the couples who 405 00:25:26,756 --> 00:25:30,076 Speaker 1: sustain a strong sexual connection are friends who admire and 406 00:25:30,156 --> 00:25:33,036 Speaker 1: trust each other. When that's in place, the first thing 407 00:25:33,076 --> 00:25:35,916 Speaker 1: to do, your first step is to talk to your 408 00:25:35,996 --> 00:25:42,836 Speaker 1: partner about what kind of sex is worth wanting. And 409 00:25:43,436 --> 00:25:45,996 Speaker 1: the hard part is that maybe their answer is no 410 00:25:46,116 --> 00:25:48,676 Speaker 1: kind of sex I've ever had has been worth wanting, 411 00:25:49,516 --> 00:25:51,996 Speaker 1: or I can hardly imagine any sex that would be 412 00:25:52,036 --> 00:25:56,356 Speaker 1: worth wanting. And if that's the person's answer, therapy and 413 00:25:56,796 --> 00:25:59,516 Speaker 1: let me normalize that. Yes, couples this sage definitely do 414 00:25:59,676 --> 00:26:03,356 Speaker 1: seek therapy. There's a whole book by sex therapist Barry 415 00:26:03,436 --> 00:26:05,916 Speaker 1: McCarthy and his wife Emily they're both in their seventies, 416 00:26:05,916 --> 00:26:09,276 Speaker 1: themselves married to each other for over fifty years. They've 417 00:26:09,316 --> 00:26:11,996 Speaker 1: seen so many older couples that they wrote this whole 418 00:26:11,996 --> 00:26:14,956 Speaker 1: book to help therapists work with these clients. It's called 419 00:26:15,076 --> 00:26:20,236 Speaker 1: Couples Sexuality after sixty. So Step one talk about sex 420 00:26:20,276 --> 00:26:23,236 Speaker 1: worth wanting and if you need help with that conversation 421 00:26:24,316 --> 00:26:29,996 Speaker 1: therapy step two. So I've said the couples who sustain 422 00:26:30,036 --> 00:26:33,116 Speaker 1: a strong sexual connection are friends who admire and trust 423 00:26:33,116 --> 00:26:36,676 Speaker 1: each other, and they prioritize sex. But I'm going to 424 00:26:36,716 --> 00:26:40,836 Speaker 1: add a third characteristic. Couples who sustain a strong sexual 425 00:26:40,836 --> 00:26:46,836 Speaker 1: connection over the long term reject the binary gender rules 426 00:26:46,876 --> 00:26:51,196 Speaker 1: that were assigned to them, especially around their sexuality. Both 427 00:26:51,196 --> 00:26:54,956 Speaker 1: the McCarthy's and there's a sex educator and researcher named 428 00:26:55,036 --> 00:27:00,716 Speaker 1: Jane Fleischmann who emphasizes the importance of this third characteristic. 429 00:27:01,636 --> 00:27:05,116 Speaker 1: So Jane wrote a book called The Stonewall Generation, which 430 00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:08,996 Speaker 1: is about the sex lives of LGBTQIA two plus elder 431 00:27:09,276 --> 00:27:12,756 Speaker 1: boomers who were part of the revolution that's often marked 432 00:27:12,756 --> 00:27:15,556 Speaker 1: by the Stonewall Riot, and she interviewed them to find 433 00:27:15,556 --> 00:27:17,516 Speaker 1: out what their sex lives were like, and she found 434 00:27:17,516 --> 00:27:23,156 Speaker 1: that the predictors of sexual satisfaction among these folks were so. 435 00:27:23,196 --> 00:27:27,476 Speaker 1: The first one was, of course, lowered internalized homophobia, and second, 436 00:27:28,076 --> 00:27:34,556 Speaker 1: higher acceptance of their aging bodies. When older LGBTQIA too 437 00:27:34,596 --> 00:27:39,036 Speaker 1: plus people have better sex, it's when they are rejecting 438 00:27:39,636 --> 00:27:42,556 Speaker 1: the binary. It's when they're rejecting the script that says, 439 00:27:42,636 --> 00:27:44,876 Speaker 1: this is who you're supposed to be, and that is 440 00:27:44,916 --> 00:27:47,956 Speaker 1: something we can all do. So when I hear Arthur 441 00:27:48,076 --> 00:27:51,636 Speaker 1: talking about taking something to I think he says, get 442 00:27:51,636 --> 00:27:55,836 Speaker 1: to his potential. Yes, what I hear there is erections, 443 00:27:56,516 --> 00:28:00,916 Speaker 1: and I even hear the assumption that it's penis and 444 00:28:00,996 --> 00:28:04,116 Speaker 1: vagina sex that he means he wants when he says 445 00:28:04,116 --> 00:28:07,676 Speaker 1: he wants and like sex. That's the intercourse imperative. It 446 00:28:07,796 --> 00:28:12,156 Speaker 1: is assis heteronormative script of what counts as sex. A 447 00:28:12,156 --> 00:28:14,996 Speaker 1: long time ago, when viagraph first came out, for example, 448 00:28:15,156 --> 00:28:17,796 Speaker 1: there was a study done at the Kinsey Institute that 449 00:28:17,996 --> 00:28:23,316 Speaker 1: found that wives in heterosexual couples where the husband had 450 00:28:23,356 --> 00:28:27,556 Speaker 1: started taking viagra were actually less satisfied with their sex 451 00:28:27,636 --> 00:28:32,716 Speaker 1: lives because they liked that intercourse had become decentralized in 452 00:28:32,756 --> 00:28:35,276 Speaker 1: their sex lives, and when erections came back because he 453 00:28:35,316 --> 00:28:39,636 Speaker 1: was taking a medication. All the other pleasurable things they 454 00:28:39,636 --> 00:28:42,556 Speaker 1: were doing went away because now the erection was here, 455 00:28:42,596 --> 00:28:50,036 Speaker 1: And so penetration. People expand their access to pleasure when 456 00:28:50,036 --> 00:28:53,196 Speaker 1: they reject the scripts that tell them what emotions they're 457 00:28:53,196 --> 00:28:57,636 Speaker 1: allowed to feel and who's allowed to initiate and what 458 00:28:57,716 --> 00:28:59,996 Speaker 1: kind of sex you're supposed to have because of whatever 459 00:29:00,036 --> 00:29:03,676 Speaker 1: body parts you have. So maybe this doesn't sound like 460 00:29:03,716 --> 00:29:08,636 Speaker 1: practical advice, but it actually is concrete, specific practical advice. 461 00:29:09,196 --> 00:29:12,876 Speaker 1: Write down the script that you were given about who 462 00:29:12,916 --> 00:29:16,436 Speaker 1: you're supposed to be as a gendered person and start 463 00:29:16,596 --> 00:29:20,156 Speaker 1: crossing out the stuff that's getting in the way of 464 00:29:20,156 --> 00:29:24,356 Speaker 1: your access to pleasure. I'm hearing this, and I obviously 465 00:29:24,396 --> 00:29:27,996 Speaker 1: know this to be true. Like, what you're saying makes 466 00:29:27,996 --> 00:29:31,316 Speaker 1: a lot of sense, but it requires two people in 467 00:29:31,356 --> 00:29:34,956 Speaker 1: a relationship to both be doing that work of like 468 00:29:36,836 --> 00:29:40,196 Speaker 1: deconstructing the lives they've been told about sex and gender 469 00:29:40,316 --> 00:29:45,076 Speaker 1: and their body and shame and finding pleasure and joy. 470 00:29:45,156 --> 00:29:47,036 Speaker 1: Like if just one of them is doing it, I 471 00:29:47,076 --> 00:29:50,396 Speaker 1: don't think it would maybe have the same magnificent sex 472 00:29:50,436 --> 00:29:53,556 Speaker 1: effect on their life. You know, Yeah, there is magnificent 473 00:29:53,556 --> 00:29:58,196 Speaker 1: sex that's available through masturbation through solo sex. So if 474 00:29:58,316 --> 00:30:00,556 Speaker 1: Arthur can do nothing else like as his partner, if 475 00:30:00,556 --> 00:30:03,316 Speaker 1: his wife is really just like no and no, I 476 00:30:03,356 --> 00:30:04,716 Speaker 1: don't like it, I don't want it, I don't want 477 00:30:04,716 --> 00:30:08,076 Speaker 1: to think about it anymore. Right then what he absolutely like, 478 00:30:08,116 --> 00:30:10,756 Speaker 1: he can make a bunch of choice for himself, and 479 00:30:10,836 --> 00:30:16,956 Speaker 1: one of those choices is to practice masturbation in an ecstatic, authentic, deliberate, 480 00:30:17,436 --> 00:30:24,196 Speaker 1: exploratory way. Again full circle. We started out with someone 481 00:30:24,236 --> 00:30:27,316 Speaker 1: who's not interested in masturbating. Yeah, our second episode with 482 00:30:27,396 --> 00:30:29,516 Speaker 1: the question from Sarah, and we end up with the 483 00:30:29,556 --> 00:30:32,836 Speaker 1: advice to masturbate a whole lot like in like, don't 484 00:30:32,956 --> 00:30:35,676 Speaker 1: do it quick, let it take time, don't make it 485 00:30:35,716 --> 00:30:39,116 Speaker 1: about orgasm, make it about what am I going to say? 486 00:30:39,276 --> 00:30:46,756 Speaker 1: Make your masturbation about pleasure? Pleasure? Of course I knew 487 00:30:46,796 --> 00:30:50,516 Speaker 1: pleasure was going to come back. Okay, on that note, 488 00:30:50,596 --> 00:30:52,516 Speaker 1: I think we should take a quick break. No, I 489 00:30:52,516 --> 00:30:54,316 Speaker 1: want to stay here and talk about sex and long 490 00:30:54,396 --> 00:30:57,356 Speaker 1: term relationships forever. But yeah, probably yes, we should take 491 00:30:57,356 --> 00:31:01,596 Speaker 1: a ridk Okay, and when we get back, I want 492 00:31:01,596 --> 00:31:03,876 Speaker 1: to revisit some of the big lessons you covered in 493 00:31:03,916 --> 00:31:20,836 Speaker 1: this episode. All right, Emily, we're back. Our final episode 494 00:31:20,836 --> 00:31:25,436 Speaker 1: of this season is coming to a close. No rip 495 00:31:25,476 --> 00:31:28,036 Speaker 1: my heart out, I know what am I ever going 496 00:31:28,116 --> 00:31:31,876 Speaker 1: to do? In the meantime, can you just recap some 497 00:31:31,956 --> 00:31:34,996 Speaker 1: of the takeaways from this episode about sex in long 498 00:31:35,116 --> 00:31:39,876 Speaker 1: term relationships and in long term relationships like Arthur's yes 499 00:31:40,116 --> 00:31:43,716 Speaker 1: we assume, we assume Yes fantastic idea? So four things. 500 00:31:44,676 --> 00:31:49,796 Speaker 1: First of all, aging is real and normal, and sometimes 501 00:31:49,796 --> 00:31:53,756 Speaker 1: it's inconvenient and disappointing, But whatever happens, the ones who 502 00:31:53,756 --> 00:31:56,676 Speaker 1: get old are the lucky ones. And different people respond 503 00:31:56,676 --> 00:32:00,116 Speaker 1: differently to aging, including in how they feel about sex 504 00:32:00,236 --> 00:32:02,596 Speaker 1: in their aging bodies. For some people, it really is few. 505 00:32:02,636 --> 00:32:04,716 Speaker 1: I never have to worry about that again, And for 506 00:32:04,836 --> 00:32:09,076 Speaker 1: others it's few. I am liberated from all that nonsense, 507 00:32:09,396 --> 00:32:11,676 Speaker 1: all the standards against which I was supposed to be 508 00:32:11,716 --> 00:32:16,676 Speaker 1: comparing myself. Two. Couples who sustain a strong sexual connection 509 00:32:16,676 --> 00:32:20,156 Speaker 1: over the long term are couples who admire and trust 510 00:32:20,236 --> 00:32:26,396 Speaker 1: each other and who prioritize sex. Three. Sex is easier 511 00:32:26,396 --> 00:32:31,396 Speaker 1: to prioritize when everyone involved likes the sex, So talk 512 00:32:31,396 --> 00:32:34,956 Speaker 1: to each other about what kind of sex is worth wanting. 513 00:32:35,156 --> 00:32:37,316 Speaker 1: And if you haven't read it yet, please go read 514 00:32:37,356 --> 00:32:40,676 Speaker 1: Peggy Cliine Plots and Danna Maynard's Magnificent Sex, which is 515 00:32:40,716 --> 00:32:45,236 Speaker 1: about the research on the extraordinary lovers. And finally, the 516 00:32:45,436 --> 00:32:48,876 Speaker 1: ultimate real answer to having great sex in the long 517 00:32:48,996 --> 00:32:55,036 Speaker 1: term is releasing yourselves from the six heteronormative scripts about 518 00:32:55,156 --> 00:32:58,516 Speaker 1: how you're supposed to experience sex and who's allowed to 519 00:32:58,556 --> 00:33:01,036 Speaker 1: have it or do it and what's supposed to happen 520 00:33:01,196 --> 00:33:05,556 Speaker 1: while you're doing it. Wow. You mentioned so many amazing 521 00:33:05,556 --> 00:33:07,396 Speaker 1: books in this episode, and they are all going to 522 00:33:07,436 --> 00:33:14,076 Speaker 1: be in the show notes. Well, Emily, that puts a 523 00:33:14,076 --> 00:33:16,676 Speaker 1: bow on this puppy. That wraps it right up. I 524 00:33:16,716 --> 00:33:18,876 Speaker 1: just want to thank you so much for being the 525 00:33:19,036 --> 00:33:26,836 Speaker 1: best sex head teacher I've ever had, DAP. It has 526 00:33:26,836 --> 00:33:28,916 Speaker 1: been a delight in a pleasure. I am absolutely sincere. 527 00:33:29,196 --> 00:33:31,836 Speaker 1: You have just described my actual literal reason for being 528 00:33:31,836 --> 00:33:34,556 Speaker 1: on earth, which is teaching people to live with confidence 529 00:33:34,556 --> 00:33:37,356 Speaker 1: and joy in their bodies, letting them know that they're normal, 530 00:33:37,516 --> 00:33:44,876 Speaker 1: and teaching them how to create pleasure with science. And 531 00:33:45,196 --> 00:33:47,916 Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like we're doing it. You're 532 00:33:47,916 --> 00:33:51,876 Speaker 1: doing it, and I'm just learning along the way. And 533 00:33:51,996 --> 00:33:55,156 Speaker 1: now I'm off to finish my book. It's called Come Together, 534 00:33:55,676 --> 00:33:58,076 Speaker 1: and I'm very proud of that. Oh my god, that's 535 00:33:58,116 --> 00:34:01,916 Speaker 1: so good. Get it see because it's not about simultaneous orgasm. 536 00:34:01,956 --> 00:34:05,756 Speaker 1: It's about people turning toward each other. Prepare yourself for 537 00:34:06,236 --> 00:34:11,636 Speaker 1: Come Together, coming out in twenty twenty three. Thank you 538 00:34:11,676 --> 00:34:17,916 Speaker 1: all so much for listening. Come As You Are is 539 00:34:17,916 --> 00:34:21,676 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries and Madison Wells. It's hosted 540 00:34:21,676 --> 00:34:25,356 Speaker 1: and executive produced by Emily Nagowsky. You can find Emily 541 00:34:25,476 --> 00:34:29,956 Speaker 1: on Instagram at e Nagowsky and on Twitter at Emily Nagowski. 542 00:34:30,556 --> 00:34:33,036 Speaker 1: You can also sign up for her newsletter at Emily 543 00:34:33,156 --> 00:34:36,916 Speaker 1: Nagowsky dot com, where she writes about everything from the 544 00:34:36,996 --> 00:34:40,956 Speaker 1: clitterest in your mind to orgasm after having hysterectomy. It's 545 00:34:40,956 --> 00:34:45,316 Speaker 1: an incredible newsletter. Highly recommended. This show is co hosted 546 00:34:45,316 --> 00:34:48,476 Speaker 1: and lead produced by me Mola Board. You can find 547 00:34:48,516 --> 00:34:52,556 Speaker 1: me online at Mola Board and on TikTok at podcast 548 00:34:52,716 --> 00:34:56,636 Speaker 1: dot slut Sorry mom. My co producer on this show 549 00:34:56,716 --> 00:35:00,956 Speaker 1: is the fabulous Brittany Brown. Our editor is Kate Parkinson Morgan. 550 00:35:01,316 --> 00:35:04,996 Speaker 1: Sound design and mix by Ann Pope. Executive producers are 551 00:35:05,076 --> 00:35:08,356 Speaker 1: Mia LaBelle and Lee taal Mallad. We also want to 552 00:35:08,356 --> 00:35:10,676 Speaker 1: give a special thank you to the many people who 553 00:35:10,756 --> 00:35:13,996 Speaker 1: talked to us while we were developing this series. That's 554 00:35:14,116 --> 00:35:19,556 Speaker 1: Robin Manning, Samuel's Nadine Thornhill, Angela Chin, Aubrey Lancaster, Shine, 555 00:35:19,596 --> 00:35:24,476 Speaker 1: Louise Houston, Ericamohen, Doctor China Usai, and doctor Nan Wise 556 00:35:25,396 --> 00:35:29,756 Speaker 1: at Pushkin. Thanks to Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, Sophie Crane, 557 00:35:29,956 --> 00:35:34,956 Speaker 1: Courtney Guarino, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, John Schnars, and Jacob 558 00:35:34,956 --> 00:35:39,716 Speaker 1: Weisberg at Madison Wells. Thanks to Kylie Williams, Elizabeth Goodstein 559 00:35:39,956 --> 00:35:45,596 Speaker 1: and Gg Pritzker. Additional thanks to Rich Stevens, Lindsay Edgecombe, 560 00:35:45,916 --> 00:35:51,716 Speaker 1: Frolick Media, and Peter Acker at Armadillo Audio Group. Original 561 00:35:51,796 --> 00:35:55,716 Speaker 1: music for this series was composed by Ameliagoski and arranged 562 00:35:55,716 --> 00:36:00,836 Speaker 1: and reported by Alexandra Kalinovsky. Additional music from Epidemic Sound. 563 00:36:01,396 --> 00:36:05,436 Speaker 1: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin Pods, 564 00:36:05,796 --> 00:36:08,116 Speaker 1: and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin 565 00:36:08,276 --> 00:36:11,196 Speaker 1: dot Fm. If you love this show and others from 566 00:36:11,196 --> 00:36:16,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is 567 00:36:16,756 --> 00:36:21,636 Speaker 1: a podcast subscription that offers bonus content in uninterrupted listening 568 00:36:21,836 --> 00:36:24,916 Speaker 1: for only four ninety nine a month. 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