WEBVTT - 193. The truth about avoidant attachment ft. Thais Gibson 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:09.280 Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:12.280 the podcast where we talk through some of the big 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:16.880 life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:23.120 mean for our psychology. 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:27.520 Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:31.720 the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:34.239 the world, it is so great to have you here. 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.479 Back for another episode as we, of course breakdown the 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:41.839 psychology of our twenties. Okay, So, one of the big 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:47.159 hot topics in psychology, online, in the media, especially in 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:51.920 self help communities at the moment is attachment styles. Attachment 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:56.560 theory essentially says that we learn how to form intimate 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:00.640 attachments and bond with others based on our childhood experiences, 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:04.320 and when those experiences and our primary relationship with our 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:08.080 caregivers is disturbed or difficult, it can lead to a 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:11.640 disorganized attachment style. Now, I think that it is so 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:14.880 amazing that so many more of us have the language 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:18.800 to describe how we relate to others, how we form attachments. 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:22.399 It is one of the biggest and most valuable important 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.640 theories in psychology, with a small caveat being that I 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:28.679 also think it's important that we get it right and 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:32.759 if we are going to apply these labels of insecure, 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:36.200 of anxious, of avoidant, we actually know what it means. 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:40.160 So today we are bringing back a favorite guest of ours, 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:43.279 somebody who has been on the show before and also 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:46.120 one of the world's biggest experts on the topic of 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:50.960 attachment styles and attachment theory, Tace Gibson. Welcome to the show. 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:53.440 Thank you for having me. Excited to be back here 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:53.720 with you. 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:56.720 Yeah, so for those of you who don't know, we've 0:01:56.760 --> 0:02:01.520 previously done an episode on anxious attack theory or anxious 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:07.240 attachment style sorry last year, which actually goes into the 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:10.240 overall theory a little bit more around you know John 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:14.360 bowlby Mary Ainsworth who created this theory and like the 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:16.640 unique styles. So if you miss that, I would recommend 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:21.280 going back and listening to that episode. But can you 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:24.480 tell us a little bit about yourself and yeah, I 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:27.400 guess where your interest in attachment theory really began. 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:33.200 Yeah, So I really started getting interested in people, I 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:35.240 think at a really young age. So I went through 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:38.360 a family dynamic that was pretty chaotic. There was a 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:40.600 lot of intense fighting and arguments, and so all my 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:43.880 parents go through like a very long and quite intense 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:46.560 divorce that went all the way to like the Superior 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.480 Court of Canada, like all these sort of dramatic things. 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.280 And I think I was a really sensitive kid and 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.400 I was parentified a lot. So what that really means 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:57.760 for anybody who's not familiar with that term is I was. 0:02:57.760 --> 0:02:59.280 Put in the middle at a very young age, sort 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:00.080 of forced to. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.800 Play like an emotional parent role for my parents, and 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:04.639 they would both have vent to me about each other 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:06.480 a lot, and I think I spent a lot of 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:10.000 my early childhood wondering, like, why do things have to 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:12.280 be so difficult? Why can't people who love each other 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.480 just kind of come together and figure it out? And like, 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:17.320 you know, they obviously care about each other, and they 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.520 care about me and my sister, but why can't they 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:22.320 just figure out how to not be like this with 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:22.760 one another? 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:24.680 Because they really kind of brought out those hard parts 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:25.120 of each other. 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:28.560 So from a really young age, I was really interested 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:30.959 in like people and human dynamics. 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:33.359 And I was definitely. 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:36.720 There as sort of the therapist kind of child for 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:38.480 my parents too, So I think it was just very 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:40.640 natural for me to evolve into this type of work. 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:43.000 It was definitely not something I disliked. 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.400 I always liked like talking about real things and breaking 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:46.960 things down. 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:50.480 And it was through my own kind of struggles as like. 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.480 A teenager and going into my early adult years that 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.120 I ended up doing a much deeper dive in a 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:58.400 more serious way into like how do we really heal? 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:00.920 How do we really work through these things? And it 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:03.600 was through that that one of the things I revisited 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:08.720 was attachment styles and ended up sort of combining a 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:10.960 lot of my research and hypnosis was my background, and 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.560 a lot in like the subconscious mind and then traditional 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.000 psychology and the traditional sort of school system wrote I 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:21.719 combined that with the principles of CBT and NLP and 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:24.920 ultimately attachment styles to really create a body of work 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.200 about how not only can we change our attachment style 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:31.560 and become securely attached, but also diving deeper into the 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:33.279 work of John Bowlby and Mary an'sworth of how our 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:36.000 attachment style originally forms. So basically I went on to 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:38.480 run like a ten year almost ten year client practice 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.240 and then put a whole bunch of programs online with 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:44.160 the Personal Development School all about the attachment theory kind 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:44.680 of stuff. 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:47.400 Oh, my gosh, I love that whole story because I 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.480 feel like you make a great point, which is that, yes, 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:54.440 the original theory is like amazing and it's such a 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.880 solid foundation, but our understanding of how the human mind 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:00.560 works has also evolved a little bit, and so it's 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:05.680 important to kind of evolve our traditional and conventional theories 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:09.480 with like that more modern understanding. You also spoke about parentification, 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:16.320 which I find to be such a fascinating subject for 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:19.240 those of us who don't know what that means. It's basically, 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:24.320 you become the parent for your parents, so that child 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:28.800 parent dynamic actually kind of reverses, and so you might 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.479 become a confident you might be a mediated like you said, 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:37.279 you might have to provide for them physically, emotionally, financially. 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.520 What do you think is there like a specific attachment 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:44.640 style that that normally contributes to, because part of me 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:49.159 is like, oh, it would it be secure because your 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.240 parent really needed you, or would it be avoided? 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:53.839 Such a good question, it's so interesting. 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:57.360 So a lot of the research and attachment styles actually 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.320 shows that you're more likely to become at least fearful, 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:02.800 avoidant or dismissive aboidan like hav an avoidant side, the 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:06.040 more enmeshed you are at a young age with your parents, 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:08.800 and I think part of what often happens is that 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.520 you'll have that side of like feeling engulfed and overwhelmed, 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:15.159 and obviously, in like traditional dismissive avoidant, the two fears 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:19.680 are really about engulfment and then being defective in some way, right, 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:22.440 so they fear being trapped in the wrong relationship or 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.320 and a lot of that trapped core fear first comes 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:29.080 from being enmeshed in some form, whether it was through 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:32.760 parentification or just I talk a lot about this topic. 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:36.520 It's we have like direct parentification and indirect parentification. So 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:39.400 direct is like myself and I was a fearful avoidant 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:43.039 before working on my attachment style, and my direct was 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.679 like I was directly in the middle people directly coming 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:49.320 to me in client practice and through our programs that pds. 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.640 I've often seen instead that dismissible woidens are indirectly parentified. 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:55.880 So they may have a parent who's like very depressed 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:58.479 all the time and the other parent not around, and 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:01.640 they start worrying like, okay, my parents not okay, and 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:03.600 if they're not okay, how will I be okay, right, 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.400 because we're very aware that we're completely dependent on our 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:09.000 caregivers for survival at a young age, and so if 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.560 there's a combination of avoidance and an indirect enmeasurement, I 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.880 find that to be the most consistent output that will 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:19.080 produce a dismissive avoidant as an adult. 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.800 That makes so much sense, Like the engulfment, the enmeshment, 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:25.400 I feel like we've jumped the gun. I've jumped the 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:27.440 gun and I went straight to like an in depth 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.760 question about avoidant attachment style. But that's what we're focusing 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:35.360 on today. What exactly makes somebody avoidant? How common is 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.120 this in society? Can you kind of break down something 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:42.040 you've already spoken about, is dismissive versus fearful? Can you 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:45.200 break down what it means to be somebody who is 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:49.320 avoidantly attached according to theory, according to your own personal 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:51.040 experiences as well. 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.160 Yes, it's such a good question. So there's two quote 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.040 unquote avoidant attachment styles. One is fearful avoidant and one 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.000 is dismissive avoidant. So fearful avoidance one of the big 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:03.280 differentiators is they have an anxious side, so they basically 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:06.400 oscillate between being anxious and avoidant, and they basically because 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:08.840 they grow up with conflicting ideas about love, they often 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:12.960 have some very good experiences with love, like having some 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.480 very loving moments, some caring moments, and then having some 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.640 really chaotic ones. And fearful avoidance are characterized by a 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.840 little bit more trauma than the average attachment style. That's 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:24.760 the type of trauma we think, like big T trauma. 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:28.120 So it can be physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:32.679 addiction in the family or household, really really intense divorce processes, 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.120 these kinds of things where there's a lot of that intensity, 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:40.280 and dismissive avoidance are characterized more by emotional neglect, but 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.320 also can be combined with that sense of engulfment or enmeshment. 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:46.160 So fearful avoidance will tend to have that side of 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:50.440 like fearing abandonment and yearning for closeness, but then also 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:54.160 fearing engulfment and enmeshment and entrapment in their relationships, and 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:56.640 so they can really go from being really hot to 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:59.920 very cold. So they're kind of the attachment style if any, 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.520 but he's newer to this stuff. That's like come to 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:04.079 get close to me, come we get close. I want love, 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:05.880 and then they're like, no, get back, you're too close. 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:09.560 And I experienced that my whole early teenagers and early 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:12.160 adult life, Like I would constantly be like, I really 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:12.840 want connection. 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:14.960 I really care about connection, and then. 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:16.920 When I felt really connected or attached to people, it 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:19.040 would terrify me. I would be like, we're gonna hurt me, 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:21.240 something bad's gonna happen, and I would try to start 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:24.120 pushing them away. And I was less like that with friendships, 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:27.520 but I was extremely like that with romantic relationships. I 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.120 was probably a very difficult person to be with before 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.000 doing the work. And so you know, it's because we 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.400 first have those core fears about like the closeness has 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:37.600 good moments, but it also has really scary moments, and 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.280 so we go back and forth within ourselves, which really 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:42.640 mirrors back the way we were conditioned about love and 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:43.840 attachments to begin with. 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:45.040 And then dismiss the. 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:49.400 Avoidance their overarching theme as childhood emotional neglect. So you know, 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.640 generally we'll see that they neglect their own emotions as 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:55.920 adults because there was never really a lot of emotional atonement. 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:59.480 And if that's combined with indirect enmashment and the fear 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.240 of getting too close or being engulfed. You'll see that 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:04.720 they tend to be people who constantly keep people at 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:06.920 arm's length, and so they may show up in like 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:09.800 the dating stage of relationships when they're first the attachment 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:12.120 bond hasn't been built yet, and they may be more 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:14.920 charming or charismatic or seem to be, you know, quite 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:16.280 available in a lot of different ways. 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:17.800 Then, but once they. 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.680 Start to attach, they tend to just exclusively fear being 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:24.320 trapped or being criticized, and so they'll really push back, 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:26.520 and they may be the type of attachment style that 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.040 you know, seems unable to commit, pushes away all of 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.640 a sudden note of the blue, even when commitments just 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:36.240 starting and when things are getting more real, and they'll 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:38.920 work really hard to maintain their privacy and their distance 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:41.720 from people a lot of the time because as a 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:45.600 child's closeness meant I was neglected and I was engulfed, 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.160 and so those are things that they're scared to relive 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.360 as adults, and they'll go out of their way to 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:52.000 stop that from happening. So those are sort of the 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.120 two avoidant attachment cells, and some of those key differences 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:55.680 between them. 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:59.480 That was like so succinct. I also like the point 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:01.080 that you made around it being kind of a self 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.760 fulfilling prophecy, right, Like you start pushing away, so they 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:07.880 start behaving the way that you always expected people you 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:11.760 were close to to behave, and so you reinforce that 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:17.000 like primary maladaptive behavior of once again avoiding connection and 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:21.400 perhaps self sabotaging. Okay, I have a hot seat question 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:23.960 for you, and maybe you probably don't know the answer 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:29.599 to this, but how common is avoidant attachment in society? 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:31.520 Really good question. 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:35.319 So there hasn't been a huge body of recent research 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:40.080 done about the attachment breakdown. About thirty years ago, a 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.080 research show that it was roughly fifty percent of people 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:45.720 were secure, and then research showed that somewhere between five 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:49.040 and ten percent of people were disorganized attachment style. And 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:52.040 then the rest of the split was between anxious and 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:56.840 dismissive avoidant and disorganized is also sorry, fear full avoidant 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:58.400 aka disorganized attachment style. 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.520 They're often referred to as the same thing. It's the 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:02.120 same attachment style at the end of the day. So 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:03.679 it's funny. 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.480 Because you know, we have a big attachment sele Quitz, 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:07.960 and we have a lot of people to come in 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:12.200 take it, and tons of people will be like I 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:14.880 tested this way, but I realized through doing some of 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:17.200 the course work, I'm actually this attachment style. It's one 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:19.720 of the most common things we see and research shows 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:23.000 very conclusively historically that self reporting is not always the 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:27.400 most accurate thing sometimes, you know, although research will show that, 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.479 you know, we're looking at the totality of avoidant attachment 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:34.760 being somewhere around twenty to thirty percent shared by dismissible 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:38.240 avoidant and fearful avoidant attachment style. I wouldn't be surprised 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:41.560 if it's a little bit higher, particularly dismissible boidance, because 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.240 dismissible woildans tend to self report is more secure. I've 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:47.240 absolutely noticed that pattern, and we've had like a couple 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:49.440 million people take our attachment style Quitz, so it's not 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.520 a small sample size. And what will happen is people 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:56.040 will think that because you know, they're repressing their emotions, 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:59.199 which is very dismissible boidened, and because they tend to 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.240 not get into lots of fights are chaos in their relationships, 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:06.480 they'll often conflate that with being securely attached, rather than 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:10.400 realizing that what's securely attached actually means is we can 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.760 work through our conflicts, we can express our emotions vulnerably, 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:16.840 we can let people in and let our guard down 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:18.600 and let somebody get to know us, and we can 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:22.840 invest in commitment and invest in a relationship, and those 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:24.640 are really the cornerstones of what it means to be 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:29.520 securely attached, rather than the absence of arguing means secure attachment, 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:31.680 which is what the DA tends to conflate things as so, 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:38.320 I think that probably that percentage is significantly higher than 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:42.720 just the twenty to thirty percent, but the more common 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:44.680 research now it's coming out is at least showing that 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.920 secure attachment style is on the decline over the last 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:48.840 thirty years as well. 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:52.680 I don't want to make I'm going to make broad 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:54.880 statements here and maybe they're not true, and they probably 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:57.400 should be more research into it, but I do feel 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.839 like there is obviously like a separation between parents and 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.800 children more now, like with social media with our phones 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.320 that really stops children in a way of reaching out, 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.520 but then also like parents from engaging properly with their children. 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:14.480 And we also know that there is a lot of 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:20.880 generational trauma that if not broken, gets passed on. That's 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.200 largely like there is like a core moment where you 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.520 can kind of fix that, right, And it's like if 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:30.440 people aren't doing the work, then it's not going to happen. 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:32.920 Then you know, that's what happens. I feel like, I 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:34.760 don't know if that's a big broad statement, but we'll 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:35.600 have to say I. 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:37.760 Thought that was a perfect statement, Like I really really 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:38.280 agree with that. 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:40.960 I think that we're in a generation now or because 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:44.440 of social media and the phone and convenience, and also 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:46.200 because of like a lot of our culture and a 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:48.560 lot of places throughout the world is like hustle culture, 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:51.480 like work so hard, do all these things, and obviously 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:52.920 like just some of the things that are happening in 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.680 the world too, like inflation and financial pressures. It's causing 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.680 you know, both parents to often be working, and both 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:01.640 parents some times to be working multiple jobs or to 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.240 be overwhelmed and stressed. And just like you said, there's 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:07.280 that generational trauma where if somebody's not right within themselves. 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.280 I always say this, like trauma is literally contagious. 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:12.520 It's not contagious in like a germ theory way the 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:16.160 way we think of like contagion, but trauma's contagious. In 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.800 the more proximity you have to somebody who has unresolved trauma, 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.040 the greater likelihood that trauma is going to be passed along, Right, 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:27.200 And so to your point, if we have this fractured 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.560 culture and this fractured sort of system that we're living 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:32.760 in in a multitude of ways, of course that's going 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:36.120 to affect somebody's attachment style. And so much of what 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.680 really creates secure attachment is is a caregiver able to 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.520 be present? Are they able to exercise something called approach 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:47.080 oriented behaviors and psychology, meaning that when a child cries 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:49.960 or they seem distressed, the caregiver goes towards that child, 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:54.240 approaches them and tries to sue them, checking with their needs. 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:56.280 And what that does is it allows a child to 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:59.280 think like, Okay, I'm worthy of expressing emotion. I'm worthy 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.400 of you know, negotiating my needs and conveying what they are. 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:05.200 And I get positively reinforced by my parents when that happens. 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:07.560 And in a culture where everybody's on their phones, where 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.000 everybody's over stressed or overwhelmed or burnt out and parents 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.640 don't have that emotional availability in that same way, and 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.200 they don't have as much in bandwidth for those those 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.560 approach oriented behaviors. Of course, that's going to affect the 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:19.800 attachment style of children. 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.920 So I really like that point as well. I feel 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.040 like that is such a compelling thing because I see 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:27.200 it a lot of the time. And it's not to 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.080 say that people aren't trying the hardest and don't want 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:34.560 to raise like amazing, beautiful, well rounded children. It's just 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:37.480 hard to do that when your environment is trying to 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.960 keep you like overly stimulated by your phone or overly 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:44.920 engaged in social media or in work or in anything 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.040 like that. So this is kind of a follow up question. 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:52.560 Do you think people who are have a dismissive or 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:57.640 a fearful attachment style Do you think that they are 0:16:57.680 --> 0:16:59.960 aware as conscious of it? I think you kind of. 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.760 I've already mentioned this, right, they're less conscious of the 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:06.520 fact that they have this attachment style is because it's 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.440 kind of like protective is they're like, do you think 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:13.879 that it's because that they implicitly have recognized a benefit 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:17.760 in being this way, so subconsciously like choose to be 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.760 unaware of it. Why do you think people more so 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:22.200 self report is secure? 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:23.639 This is such a good question. 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.199 So I think the first two things is like the 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:29.440 fearful woiden and dismissable widen are different. So fearful avoidance 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:31.240 like I was fear who wouldn't trust me? We know 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:35.239 we're insecurely attached like it is allowed and queer like 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.720 you'll be on the constant, forever roller coaster of relationships 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:40.480 until you heal your attachment style. 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:42.280 So like fearable wouldn't they always know? 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:44.240 They're like the first to know, like something is not 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:46.560 right with my attachment cell because they have extreme highs 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.040 and lows, like really good moments and then really really 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:52.159 awful or chaotic moments and trust issues and you name it. 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:54.760 So fearable avoidance tend to know the most. But again 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.520 that's that like five to ten percent segment of the population, 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:00.159 the dismissive avoidance, which are a sort of lard or 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:04.800 portion there you'll generally see that I think you kind. 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:05.080 Of nailed it. 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.480 You hit the nail on the head there where they 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.160 see it an implicit benefit. You know, first of all, 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:12.440 if I grow up and I can't get my needs 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:14.520 met let's pretend I'm a dismissible boiden for a moment, 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:16.119 and I'm a child and I grow up and I 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.359 can't get my needs met in a relationship for my parents, 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.600 and I'm wired for biology like I'm biologically wired for attunement, 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:26.440 and my parents are emotionally unavailable. Then what happens is 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:28.800 I go, well, it doesn't feel good to keep yearning 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.160 for something and get rejected. So I'm going to adapt 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:35.000 to this by just repressing my need to even attach 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:36.840 to them, And by doing that. 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:37.880 It creates relief. 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:41.080 And so now I think that keeping attachment at a 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.880 distance is a very good thing. It gives me this 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:47.080 reward feeling instead of it gives me the relief instead 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:48.720 of feeling like, oh, I'm just yearning for something and 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:52.679 keep feeling rejected. And on top of that, dismissible boidance, 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:56.199 because they're suppressing their emotions, are less likely to feel 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.159 their emotions and feel that something is off. And the 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:01.720 third layer to is a dismissable voidance end up in 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.480 a dynamic where they go, well, I'm the logical one. 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:07.840 I'm straightforward, I use my brain, and I'm not really 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:11.120 giving into my emotions and of course there's tremendous benefits 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:13.240 to that, right, Like, there can be huge benefits of 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:16.320 all attachment styles that are insecurely attached. They have unique 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:20.159 and really beautiful characteristics. But that's still going to be 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:23.520 something that doesn't benefit relationships because when the moment comes 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:25.919 to be raw and real and vulnerable and build a 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.159 genuine connection, if somebody's so closed off to that, they 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.000 can't even access that properly and they're terrified of it. 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:33.760 And that becomes a really painful thing. 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.120 So I think to your point, they are already suppressing 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:39.119 their emotions so they don't even feel as much as 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:42.320 something's off, and then they see a benefit in themselves 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:44.640 being that way, which makes it kind of this catch 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.280 twenty two where it's even trickier to realize that something's 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:47.680 not right. 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:49.920 I'm going to ask a follow up question here, which 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.040 is do you think that men or women are more 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:56.760 likely to be this way? Because I get this questions 0:19:56.920 --> 0:19:59.760 all the time where it's like the profile that you're 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:04.800 you're describing, right, being incredibly rational, Right, Like, that's something 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:07.760 that I think we often associate with men, that they 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.680 are like these rational people when it comes to relationships. 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:13.719