1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 2 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 2: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to 6 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in 7 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,239 Speaker 2: the world, it is so great to have you here. 8 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 2: Back for another episode as we, of course breakdown the 9 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 2: psychology of our twenties. Okay, So, one of the big 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 2: hot topics in psychology, online, in the media, especially in 11 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 2: self help communities at the moment is attachment styles. Attachment 12 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 2: theory essentially says that we learn how to form intimate 13 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 2: attachments and bond with others based on our childhood experiences, 14 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 2: and when those experiences and our primary relationship with our 15 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 2: caregivers is disturbed or difficult, it can lead to a 16 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 2: disorganized attachment style. Now, I think that it is so 17 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: amazing that so many more of us have the language 18 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 2: to describe how we relate to others, how we form attachments. 19 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 2: It is one of the biggest and most valuable important 20 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 2: theories in psychology, with a small caveat being that I 21 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 2: also think it's important that we get it right and 22 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 2: if we are going to apply these labels of insecure, 23 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 2: of anxious, of avoidant, we actually know what it means. 24 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 2: So today we are bringing back a favorite guest of ours, 25 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,279 Speaker 2: somebody who has been on the show before and also 26 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: one of the world's biggest experts on the topic of 27 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: attachment styles and attachment theory, Tace Gibson. Welcome to the show. 28 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. Excited to be back here 29 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 3: with you. 30 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, so for those of you who don't know, we've 31 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: previously done an episode on anxious attack theory or anxious 32 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 2: attachment style sorry last year, which actually goes into the 33 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 2: overall theory a little bit more around you know John 34 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 2: bowlby Mary Ainsworth who created this theory and like the 35 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 2: unique styles. So if you miss that, I would recommend 36 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: going back and listening to that episode. But can you 37 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about yourself and yeah, I 38 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 2: guess where your interest in attachment theory really began. 39 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, So I really started getting interested in people, I 40 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 4: think at a really young age. So I went through 41 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 4: a family dynamic that was pretty chaotic. There was a 42 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 4: lot of intense fighting and arguments, and so all my 43 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 4: parents go through like a very long and quite intense 44 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 4: divorce that went all the way to like the Superior 45 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 4: Court of Canada, like all these sort of dramatic things. 46 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 4: And I think I was a really sensitive kid and 47 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 4: I was parentified a lot. So what that really means 48 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 4: for anybody who's not familiar with that term is I was. 49 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 3: Put in the middle at a very young age, sort 50 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 3: of forced to. 51 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 4: Play like an emotional parent role for my parents, and 52 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 4: they would both have vent to me about each other 53 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 4: a lot, and I think I spent a lot of 54 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 4: my early childhood wondering, like, why do things have to 55 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 4: be so difficult? Why can't people who love each other 56 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 4: just kind of come together and figure it out? And like, 57 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 4: you know, they obviously care about each other, and they 58 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 4: care about me and my sister, but why can't they 59 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 4: just figure out how to not be like this with 60 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 4: one another? 61 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 3: Because they really kind of brought out those hard parts 62 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 3: of each other. 63 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 4: So from a really young age, I was really interested 64 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:30,959 Speaker 4: in like people and human dynamics. 65 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 3: And I was definitely. 66 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 4: There as sort of the therapist kind of child for 67 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 4: my parents too, So I think it was just very 68 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 4: natural for me to evolve into this type of work. 69 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 3: It was definitely not something I disliked. 70 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 4: I always liked like talking about real things and breaking 71 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 4: things down. 72 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 3: And it was through my own kind of struggles as like. 73 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 4: A teenager and going into my early adult years that 74 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 4: I ended up doing a much deeper dive in a 75 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 4: more serious way into like how do we really heal? 76 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 4: How do we really work through these things? And it 77 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 4: was through that that one of the things I revisited 78 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 4: was attachment styles and ended up sort of combining a 79 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 4: lot of my research and hypnosis was my background, and 80 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 4: a lot in like the subconscious mind and then traditional 81 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 4: psychology and the traditional sort of school system wrote I 82 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 4: combined that with the principles of CBT and NLP and 83 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 4: ultimately attachment styles to really create a body of work 84 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 4: about how not only can we change our attachment style 85 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 4: and become securely attached, but also diving deeper into the 86 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 4: work of John Bowlby and Mary an'sworth of how our 87 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 4: attachment style originally forms. So basically I went on to 88 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 4: run like a ten year almost ten year client practice 89 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 4: and then put a whole bunch of programs online with 90 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 4: the Personal Development School all about the attachment theory kind 91 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 4: of stuff. 92 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh, I love that whole story because I 93 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 2: feel like you make a great point, which is that, yes, 94 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: the original theory is like amazing and it's such a 95 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: solid foundation, but our understanding of how the human mind 96 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: works has also evolved a little bit, and so it's 97 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 2: important to kind of evolve our traditional and conventional theories 98 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 2: with like that more modern understanding. You also spoke about parentification, 99 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: which I find to be such a fascinating subject for 100 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: those of us who don't know what that means. It's basically, 101 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 2: you become the parent for your parents, so that child 102 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 2: parent dynamic actually kind of reverses, and so you might 103 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 2: become a confident you might be a mediated like you said, 104 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 2: you might have to provide for them physically, emotionally, financially. 105 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 2: What do you think is there like a specific attachment 106 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 2: style that that normally contributes to, because part of me 107 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 2: is like, oh, it would it be secure because your 108 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: parent really needed you, or would it be avoided? 109 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 3: Such a good question, it's so interesting. 110 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 4: So a lot of the research and attachment styles actually 111 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 4: shows that you're more likely to become at least fearful, 112 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 4: avoidant or dismissive aboidan like hav an avoidant side, the 113 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 4: more enmeshed you are at a young age with your parents, 114 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 4: and I think part of what often happens is that 115 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 4: you'll have that side of like feeling engulfed and overwhelmed, 116 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 4: and obviously, in like traditional dismissive avoidant, the two fears 117 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 4: are really about engulfment and then being defective in some way, right, 118 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 4: so they fear being trapped in the wrong relationship or 119 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 4: and a lot of that trapped core fear first comes 120 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 4: from being enmeshed in some form, whether it was through 121 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 4: parentification or just I talk a lot about this topic. 122 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 4: It's we have like direct parentification and indirect parentification. So 123 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 4: direct is like myself and I was a fearful avoidant 124 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 4: before working on my attachment style, and my direct was 125 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,679 Speaker 4: like I was directly in the middle people directly coming 126 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 4: to me in client practice and through our programs that pds. 127 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 4: I've often seen instead that dismissible woidens are indirectly parentified. 128 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 4: So they may have a parent who's like very depressed 129 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 4: all the time and the other parent not around, and 130 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 4: they start worrying like, okay, my parents not okay, and 131 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 4: if they're not okay, how will I be okay, right, 132 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 4: because we're very aware that we're completely dependent on our 133 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 4: caregivers for survival at a young age, and so if 134 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 4: there's a combination of avoidance and an indirect enmeasurement, I 135 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 4: find that to be the most consistent output that will 136 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 4: produce a dismissive avoidant as an adult. 137 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 2: That makes so much sense, Like the engulfment, the enmeshment, 138 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: I feel like we've jumped the gun. I've jumped the 139 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 2: gun and I went straight to like an in depth 140 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 2: question about avoidant attachment style. But that's what we're focusing 141 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 2: on today. What exactly makes somebody avoidant? How common is 142 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: this in society? Can you kind of break down something 143 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 2: you've already spoken about, is dismissive versus fearful? Can you 144 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 2: break down what it means to be somebody who is 145 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: avoidantly attached according to theory, according to your own personal 146 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 2: experiences as well. 147 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 4: Yes, it's such a good question. So there's two quote 148 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 4: unquote avoidant attachment styles. One is fearful avoidant and one 149 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 4: is dismissive avoidant. So fearful avoidance one of the big 150 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 4: differentiators is they have an anxious side, so they basically 151 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 4: oscillate between being anxious and avoidant, and they basically because 152 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 4: they grow up with conflicting ideas about love, they often 153 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 4: have some very good experiences with love, like having some 154 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 4: very loving moments, some caring moments, and then having some 155 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 4: really chaotic ones. And fearful avoidance are characterized by a 156 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 4: little bit more trauma than the average attachment style. That's 157 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 4: the type of trauma we think, like big T trauma. 158 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 4: So it can be physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, 159 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 4: addiction in the family or household, really really intense divorce processes, 160 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 4: these kinds of things where there's a lot of that intensity, 161 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 4: and dismissive avoidance are characterized more by emotional neglect, but 162 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 4: also can be combined with that sense of engulfment or enmeshment. 163 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 4: So fearful avoidance will tend to have that side of 164 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 4: like fearing abandonment and yearning for closeness, but then also 165 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 4: fearing engulfment and enmeshment and entrapment in their relationships, and 166 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 4: so they can really go from being really hot to 167 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 4: very cold. So they're kind of the attachment style if any, 168 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 4: but he's newer to this stuff. That's like come to 169 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 4: get close to me, come we get close. I want love, 170 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 4: and then they're like, no, get back, you're too close. 171 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 4: And I experienced that my whole early teenagers and early 172 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 4: adult life, Like I would constantly be like, I really 173 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 4: want connection. 174 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 3: I really care about connection, and then. 175 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 4: When I felt really connected or attached to people, it 176 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 4: would terrify me. I would be like, we're gonna hurt me, 177 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 4: something bad's gonna happen, and I would try to start 178 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 4: pushing them away. And I was less like that with friendships, 179 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 4: but I was extremely like that with romantic relationships. I 180 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 4: was probably a very difficult person to be with before 181 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 4: doing the work. And so you know, it's because we 182 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 4: first have those core fears about like the closeness has 183 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 4: good moments, but it also has really scary moments, and 184 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 4: so we go back and forth within ourselves, which really 185 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 4: mirrors back the way we were conditioned about love and 186 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 4: attachments to begin with. 187 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 3: And then dismiss the. 188 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 4: Avoidance their overarching theme as childhood emotional neglect. So you know, 189 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 4: generally we'll see that they neglect their own emotions as 190 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 4: adults because there was never really a lot of emotional atonement. 191 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 4: And if that's combined with indirect enmashment and the fear 192 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 4: of getting too close or being engulfed. You'll see that 193 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 4: they tend to be people who constantly keep people at 194 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 4: arm's length, and so they may show up in like 195 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 4: the dating stage of relationships when they're first the attachment 196 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 4: bond hasn't been built yet, and they may be more 197 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 4: charming or charismatic or seem to be, you know, quite 198 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 4: available in a lot of different ways. 199 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 3: Then, but once they. 200 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 4: Start to attach, they tend to just exclusively fear being 201 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 4: trapped or being criticized, and so they'll really push back, 202 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 4: and they may be the type of attachment style that 203 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 4: you know, seems unable to commit, pushes away all of 204 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 4: a sudden note of the blue, even when commitments just 205 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 4: starting and when things are getting more real, and they'll 206 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 4: work really hard to maintain their privacy and their distance 207 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 4: from people a lot of the time because as a 208 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 4: child's closeness meant I was neglected and I was engulfed, 209 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 4: and so those are things that they're scared to relive 210 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 4: as adults, and they'll go out of their way to 211 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 4: stop that from happening. So those are sort of the 212 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 4: two avoidant attachment cells, and some of those key differences 213 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 4: between them. 214 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 2: That was like so succinct. I also like the point 215 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 2: that you made around it being kind of a self 216 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 2: fulfilling prophecy, right, Like you start pushing away, so they 217 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 2: start behaving the way that you always expected people you 218 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 2: were close to to behave, and so you reinforce that 219 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 2: like primary maladaptive behavior of once again avoiding connection and 220 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 2: perhaps self sabotaging. Okay, I have a hot seat question 221 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 2: for you, and maybe you probably don't know the answer 222 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:29,599 Speaker 2: to this, but how common is avoidant attachment in society? 223 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 3: Really good question. 224 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 4: So there hasn't been a huge body of recent research 225 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 4: done about the attachment breakdown. About thirty years ago, a 226 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 4: research show that it was roughly fifty percent of people 227 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 4: were secure, and then research showed that somewhere between five 228 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 4: and ten percent of people were disorganized attachment style. And 229 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 4: then the rest of the split was between anxious and 230 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 4: dismissive avoidant and disorganized is also sorry, fear full avoidant 231 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 4: aka disorganized attachment style. 232 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 3: They're often referred to as the same thing. It's the 233 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 3: same attachment style at the end of the day. So 234 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 3: it's funny. 235 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 4: Because you know, we have a big attachment sele Quitz, 236 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 4: and we have a lot of people to come in 237 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 4: take it, and tons of people will be like I 238 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 4: tested this way, but I realized through doing some of 239 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 4: the course work, I'm actually this attachment style. It's one 240 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 4: of the most common things we see and research shows 241 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 4: very conclusively historically that self reporting is not always the 242 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 4: most accurate thing sometimes, you know, although research will show that, 243 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,479 Speaker 4: you know, we're looking at the totality of avoidant attachment 244 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 4: being somewhere around twenty to thirty percent shared by dismissible 245 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 4: avoidant and fearful avoidant attachment style. I wouldn't be surprised 246 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 4: if it's a little bit higher, particularly dismissible boidance, because 247 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 4: dismissible woildans tend to self report is more secure. I've 248 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 4: absolutely noticed that pattern, and we've had like a couple 249 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 4: million people take our attachment style Quitz, so it's not 250 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 4: a small sample size. And what will happen is people 251 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 4: will think that because you know, they're repressing their emotions, 252 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 4: which is very dismissible boidened, and because they tend to 253 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 4: not get into lots of fights are chaos in their relationships, 254 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 4: they'll often conflate that with being securely attached, rather than 255 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 4: realizing that what's securely attached actually means is we can 256 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 4: work through our conflicts, we can express our emotions vulnerably, 257 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 4: we can let people in and let our guard down 258 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 4: and let somebody get to know us, and we can 259 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 4: invest in commitment and invest in a relationship, and those 260 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 4: are really the cornerstones of what it means to be 261 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 4: securely attached, rather than the absence of arguing means secure attachment, 262 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 4: which is what the DA tends to conflate things as so, 263 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 4: I think that probably that percentage is significantly higher than 264 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 4: just the twenty to thirty percent, but the more common 265 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 4: research now it's coming out is at least showing that 266 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 4: secure attachment style is on the decline over the last 267 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 4: thirty years as well. 268 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 2: I don't want to make I'm going to make broad 269 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: statements here and maybe they're not true, and they probably 270 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 2: should be more research into it, but I do feel 271 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 2: like there is obviously like a separation between parents and 272 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 2: children more now, like with social media with our phones 273 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 2: that really stops children in a way of reaching out, 274 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: but then also like parents from engaging properly with their children. 275 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 2: And we also know that there is a lot of 276 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 2: generational trauma that if not broken, gets passed on. That's 277 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: largely like there is like a core moment where you 278 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 2: can kind of fix that, right, And it's like if 279 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 2: people aren't doing the work, then it's not going to happen. 280 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 2: Then you know, that's what happens. I feel like, I 281 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 2: don't know if that's a big broad statement, but we'll 282 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 2: have to say I. 283 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 3: Thought that was a perfect statement, Like I really really 284 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 3: agree with that. 285 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 4: I think that we're in a generation now or because 286 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 4: of social media and the phone and convenience, and also 287 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 4: because of like a lot of our culture and a 288 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 4: lot of places throughout the world is like hustle culture, 289 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 4: like work so hard, do all these things, and obviously 290 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 4: like just some of the things that are happening in 291 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 4: the world too, like inflation and financial pressures. It's causing 292 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 4: you know, both parents to often be working, and both 293 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 4: parents some times to be working multiple jobs or to 294 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 4: be overwhelmed and stressed. And just like you said, there's 295 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 4: that generational trauma where if somebody's not right within themselves. 296 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 3: I always say this, like trauma is literally contagious. 297 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 4: It's not contagious in like a germ theory way the 298 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 4: way we think of like contagion, but trauma's contagious. In 299 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 4: the more proximity you have to somebody who has unresolved trauma, 300 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 4: the greater likelihood that trauma is going to be passed along, Right, 301 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 4: And so to your point, if we have this fractured 302 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 4: culture and this fractured sort of system that we're living 303 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 4: in in a multitude of ways, of course that's going 304 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 4: to affect somebody's attachment style. And so much of what 305 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 4: really creates secure attachment is is a caregiver able to 306 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 4: be present? Are they able to exercise something called approach 307 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 4: oriented behaviors and psychology, meaning that when a child cries 308 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 4: or they seem distressed, the caregiver goes towards that child, 309 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 4: approaches them and tries to sue them, checking with their needs. 310 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 4: And what that does is it allows a child to 311 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 4: think like, Okay, I'm worthy of expressing emotion. I'm worthy 312 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 4: of you know, negotiating my needs and conveying what they are. 313 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 4: And I get positively reinforced by my parents when that happens. 314 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 4: And in a culture where everybody's on their phones, where 315 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 4: everybody's over stressed or overwhelmed or burnt out and parents 316 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 4: don't have that emotional availability in that same way, and 317 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 4: they don't have as much in bandwidth for those those 318 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 4: approach oriented behaviors. Of course, that's going to affect the 319 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 4: attachment style of children. 320 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 2: So I really like that point as well. I feel 321 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: like that is such a compelling thing because I see 322 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 2: it a lot of the time. And it's not to 323 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 2: say that people aren't trying the hardest and don't want 324 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: to raise like amazing, beautiful, well rounded children. It's just 325 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: hard to do that when your environment is trying to 326 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 2: keep you like overly stimulated by your phone or overly 327 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 2: engaged in social media or in work or in anything 328 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 2: like that. So this is kind of a follow up question. 329 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 2: Do you think people who are have a dismissive or 330 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 2: a fearful attachment style Do you think that they are 331 00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 2: aware as conscious of it? I think you kind of. 332 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 2: I've already mentioned this, right, they're less conscious of the 333 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 2: fact that they have this attachment style is because it's 334 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 2: kind of like protective is they're like, do you think 335 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 2: that it's because that they implicitly have recognized a benefit 336 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: in being this way, so subconsciously like choose to be 337 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 2: unaware of it. Why do you think people more so 338 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 2: self report is secure? 339 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 3: This is such a good question. 340 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 4: So I think the first two things is like the 341 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 4: fearful woiden and dismissable widen are different. So fearful avoidance 342 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 4: like I was fear who wouldn't trust me? We know 343 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,239 Speaker 4: we're insecurely attached like it is allowed and queer like 344 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 4: you'll be on the constant, forever roller coaster of relationships 345 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 4: until you heal your attachment style. 346 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 3: So like fearable wouldn't they always know? 347 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 4: They're like the first to know, like something is not 348 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 4: right with my attachment cell because they have extreme highs 349 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 4: and lows, like really good moments and then really really 350 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 4: awful or chaotic moments and trust issues and you name it. 351 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 4: So fearable avoidance tend to know the most. But again 352 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 4: that's that like five to ten percent segment of the population, 353 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 4: the dismissive avoidance, which are a sort of lard or 354 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 4: portion there you'll generally see that I think you kind. 355 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 3: Of nailed it. 356 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 4: You hit the nail on the head there where they 357 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 4: see it an implicit benefit. You know, first of all, 358 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 4: if I grow up and I can't get my needs 359 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 4: met let's pretend I'm a dismissible boiden for a moment, 360 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 4: and I'm a child and I grow up and I 361 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 4: can't get my needs met in a relationship for my parents, 362 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 4: and I'm wired for biology like I'm biologically wired for attunement, 363 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 4: and my parents are emotionally unavailable. Then what happens is 364 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 4: I go, well, it doesn't feel good to keep yearning 365 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 4: for something and get rejected. So I'm going to adapt 366 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 4: to this by just repressing my need to even attach 367 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 4: to them, And by doing that. 368 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 3: It creates relief. 369 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 4: And so now I think that keeping attachment at a 370 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 4: distance is a very good thing. It gives me this 371 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 4: reward feeling instead of it gives me the relief instead 372 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 4: of feeling like, oh, I'm just yearning for something and 373 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 4: keep feeling rejected. And on top of that, dismissible boidance, 374 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 4: because they're suppressing their emotions, are less likely to feel 375 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 4: their emotions and feel that something is off. And the 376 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 4: third layer to is a dismissable voidance end up in 377 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 4: a dynamic where they go, well, I'm the logical one. 378 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 4: I'm straightforward, I use my brain, and I'm not really 379 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 4: giving into my emotions and of course there's tremendous benefits 380 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 4: to that, right, Like, there can be huge benefits of 381 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 4: all attachment styles that are insecurely attached. They have unique 382 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 4: and really beautiful characteristics. But that's still going to be 383 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 4: something that doesn't benefit relationships because when the moment comes 384 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 4: to be raw and real and vulnerable and build a 385 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 4: genuine connection, if somebody's so closed off to that, they 386 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 4: can't even access that properly and they're terrified of it. 387 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 3: And that becomes a really painful thing. 388 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 4: So I think to your point, they are already suppressing 389 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 4: their emotions so they don't even feel as much as 390 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 4: something's off, and then they see a benefit in themselves 391 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 4: being that way, which makes it kind of this catch 392 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 4: twenty two where it's even trickier to realize that something's 393 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 4: not right. 394 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 2: I'm going to ask a follow up question here, which 395 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 2: is do you think that men or women are more 396 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 2: likely to be this way? Because I get this questions 397 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: all the time where it's like the profile that you're 398 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 2: you're describing, right, being incredibly rational, Right, Like, that's something 399 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 2: that I think we often associate with men, that they 400 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 2: are like these rational people when it comes to relationships. 401 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,719 Speaker 2: And women are emotional, whether that is correct or not, 402 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 2: or this idea of like men are allowed to be 403 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 2: a lot more emotionally closed off. Also the factor of 404 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 2: like parentification, right, Like women are perhaps more parentified, So 405 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 2: does that contribute to them? Like, there's so many questions 406 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 2: where them, Like it's kind of like a scale to 407 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 2: me of like which what contextual and external and environmental 408 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 2: factors are kind of balancing the scale to maybe make 409 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,959 Speaker 2: men or women more likely to present this way. 410 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 3: It's such a great question. 411 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 4: So it's interesting in different cultures you'll actually see different 412 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 4: attachment style spreads ever so slightly, so, Like, it's interesting, 413 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 4: there is a study done in Japan and it shows 414 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 4: that a lot of individuals are more dismissive avoidant, and 415 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 4: culturally it's like negatively reinforced. 416 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 3: To be too emotional or too vulnerable. 417 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 4: Right, So you can some of those dynamics, but to 418 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 4: your point, absolutely, men are more likely to be dismissive 419 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 4: avoidance and women. 420 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 3: Are actually more likely to be anxious. 421 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 4: Attachment styles the spread right now looks like there's competing 422 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 4: studies on this stuff, but it looks like it's somewhere 423 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 4: between either eighty twenty or seventy five twenty five men 424 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,959 Speaker 4: to women in terms of who proportionally is dismissive, avoidant 425 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 4: attachment style. And so it makes a lot of sense, right. 426 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 4: Men are generally more emotionally shamed, and they're generally taught like, 427 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 4: don't be a cry baby, grow up, don't be so vulnerable, 428 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 4: don't let anyone see you cry. Like a lot of 429 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 4: that messaging, or messaging becomes or conditioning. And so a 430 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 4: lot of that messaging is conditioning somebody to be like, oh, 431 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 4: I can't show these sides of myself. I'll get rejected, 432 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 4: I'll be you know, shameful if I show the side 433 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 4: of myself. And so it gives even more incentive for 434 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 4: somebody to repress those aspects of self. Whereas women, you know, 435 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 4: although this is changing more so recently a little bit, 436 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 4: but women still tend to naturally be you know, they 437 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 4: have this culture where it's like, okay, we can express 438 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 4: our emotions more or share things, or be more open 439 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 4: and vulnerable with each other than we would generally see 440 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 4: in a. 441 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 3: Group of men. 442 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a classic social learning theory, right, Like you 443 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 2: observe how your parents behave, how those around you behave, 444 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 2: and you replicate and you mimic it. And if you're 445 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 2: growing up in a community, in a culture, in an 446 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 2: environment you know, I'm in Australia, right, Like that's a 447 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 2: huge thing to be like a very march o man 448 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 2: and to be very like tough and men don't cry, 449 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 2: and men get out in the field and do all 450 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 2: the work. Like, if that is the environment you're raised in, 451 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 2: even if you know it's incorrect, even if your parents 452 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 2: know it's incorrect and have tried very hard to not 453 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: enforce that within you, Like it is still going to 454 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 2: bleed in if it's kind of like the if it's 455 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 2: kind of like what's in the air, right, If it's 456 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: the thing that you breathe in, if it's a thing 457 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 2: that you see when you go to school, when you 458 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 2: hang out at your friend's place, when you go to 459 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 2: like the grocery store, when you watch when you switch 460 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 2: on TV, Like it's going to be reinforced or rewarded somehow. 461 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 2: How do you think that both are dismissive and a 462 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 2: fearful avoidant attachment style separately obviously look different for different genders. 463 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 4: Such a good question, So I would say, if we 464 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 4: break down each one, so dismissive avoidance. As men and women, 465 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 4: they both tend to share some unique characteristics, but men generally, 466 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 4: it's a little bit more socially acceptable for men to 467 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 4: be dismissive avoidance, similar to what we're talking about on 468 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 4: this concept, And so I think it's important to note that, 469 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 4: like your main first influences will be in the home, 470 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 4: because basically how we get programmed from a neuroplastic point 471 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 4: of view is like from neuroplasticity, we get programs farmed 472 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 4: through a lot of repetition and emotion which fire and 473 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 4: wire those neural pathways. And so we may if we're 474 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 4: at home all the time with our caregivers and that's 475 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 4: the major environment where we are being sort of immersed in, 476 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 4: then are more likely to see that. But we have 477 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 4: all these other features and factors coming at us right 478 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 4: where like then we have these other parts that can 479 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 4: either reprogram us or shift or change us if we 480 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 4: have a lot of like I'll share just one quick 481 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 4: example here. 482 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 3: I had a. 483 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 4: Client once and she was a really well known gymnast 484 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 4: and she was very very successful. She won a couple 485 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 4: gold medals, and she had a very secure household, but 486 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 4: she was around coaches all the time. She'd go home 487 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 4: from school, not spend any time at home, go to 488 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 4: the gym for four or five hours a night, and 489 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 4: her coach made her really anxiously attached. So we can 490 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 4: have these secondary influences and depending on our repeated exposure 491 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 4: to them, can actually usurp our original attachment style wiring. 492 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 4: So just to speak to that for a second, I 493 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 4: thought it was so important. But dismissive avoidance as a whole, 494 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 4: as a male, you'll tend to see that they present 495 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 4: as very stoic, very unemotional, sometimes. 496 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 3: Slow to warm up. 497 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 4: They can be a lot of like the boys boys, right, 498 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 4: They tend to really like to spend time with other 499 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 4: like minded individuals. They get really into their projects a 500 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 4: lot of the time, their hobbies, those sorts of things, 501 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 4: and they tend to be logical, rational, practical, all of 502 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 4: those different dynamics. We'll see those same things as a female. 503 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 4: Dismissible avoidant, Like, those traits really don't change that much, 504 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 4: I would say, more of what changes is society's response 505 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 4: to those traits. So men, it's sort of like they're 506 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 4: okay to be that logical, rational, practical withdrawn sort of 507 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 4: person whereas with women, you know, sometimes it's like, well, 508 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 4: why is she so stand offish or why is she 509 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 4: not warm? 510 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 3: Or why is she? 511 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 4: And I think the external response to it is more 512 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 4: what changes rather than anything else. And so I find 513 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 4: that men kind of have an easier time and are 514 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 4: more socially accepted as being a dismissive awoidant compared to women. Again, 515 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 4: overarching themes not always the case, but we can definitely 516 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 4: see that and will sometimes see that dismissive avoidance are 517 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 4: more likely to be kind of like the engineer types, 518 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 4: right to get really interested in that sort of style 519 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 4: of learning, and they tend to really value their safety 520 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 4: and their comfort zone, and they don't like to go 521 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 4: and try tons of new things all the time. 522 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 3: And again that usually comes from childhood programming. 523 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 4: So men and women share in a lot of those characteristics, 524 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 4: but it's just the external response to it. 525 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 3: It seems to change. 526 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 4: And from a fearful avoidant point of view, generally, fear 527 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 4: full avoidant women will seem. 528 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 3: Very warm and very you know, kind. 529 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 4: And available until real attachment forms, and then they push 530 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 4: away and they fear and those hot and cold patterns 531 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 4: come about. And I find that that is kind of easier, 532 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 4: if I had to say, between men and women, it's 533 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 4: a little easier for women to be like that because 534 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 4: they tend to be deep and they want to emotionally 535 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 4: connect with people and they care about like understanding human 536 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 4: behavior and psychology. Whereas you know men that are fearful avoidant, 537 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 4: if they're big feelers, if they really feel everything. 538 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 3: And then they're like hot and cold. 539 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 4: It's confusing for them, right because they don't have as 540 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 4: much support in their ability to emotionally process. So those 541 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 4: are some of the differences. I would say, like the 542 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 4: traits and characteristics don't change mine, but more how they 543 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 4: then relate to a society based on their gender with 544 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 4: their unique attachment styles. 545 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 2: I feel like it just goes to show that we 546 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 2: think that we're just socialized as children, but we are 547 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: continually socialized as adults, right, and there continues to be 548 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 2: these influences from our environment that can make us who 549 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 2: we are, and especially influence things like attachment style as well, 550 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 2: which is a core component of I think becomes a 551 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 2: more core component of our identity and how we relate 552 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 2: to others the older we get, as we want to 553 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 2: form those more serious long term friendships and relationships and connections. 554 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:49,199 Speaker 2: I feel like recognizing this is one thing, and it 555 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 2: could probably feel quite overwhelming when you kind of finally 556 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 2: wake up and smell the coffee or kind of begin 557 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 2: to realize that this is not helping me anymore, that 558 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 2: this is something that I needed to survive a childhood 559 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 2: experience that I am now out of, I'm now separate from, 560 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 2: and I do want to be able to connect and 561 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 2: I do want to find meaningful, deep, secure love. How 562 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 2: do we kind of approach healing when we get to 563 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 2: that point of acceptance? First, the next step is obviously 564 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 2: so obviously you can't rewrite history. But the next step 565 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 2: is to think about your future self and how you 566 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 2: want to change for them. How some of the ways 567 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 2: that we go about not undoing but accepting and healing 568 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 2: this part of us. 569 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's such a beautiful question. So we created a 570 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 4: body of work and we had about thirty one thousand 571 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 4: people go through our programs and take this information and 572 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 4: we see within about a ninety day period, we can 573 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 4: change our attachment style. Now, that's the median of people, right, 574 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 4: There's people who fall outside of that, who may not 575 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 4: be you know, who may have way more childhood trauma. 576 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 4: And it may take more than ninety days, but the 577 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 4: vast majority of people can become dominantly securely attached in 578 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 4: that ninety day period and it's through focusing on a 579 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 4: few crucial areas. So number one, and when we say 580 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 4: like healing those parts of ourselves and accepting part of ourselves, 581 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 4: I think it's we walk this really beautiful line between 582 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 4: being able to be self accepting but also realize when 583 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 4: there's a need for transformation. Right, Like, we can have 584 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 4: a child who does something wrong at school, you know, 585 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,719 Speaker 4: breaks something or get angry or throws a temper tantrum, 586 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 4: and it doesn't mean we like shame the child. We 587 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 4: can be like, honey, I love you, I care about you, 588 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 4: I want you to feel okay, and that's not acceptable. 589 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 4: At the same time, let's work on changing that behavior. 590 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 4: So it's really like that attitude that we want to 591 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 4: have to sell first, where we can be accepting of like, hey, 592 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 4: this isn't my fault. 593 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 3: I didn't choose my attachment style. 594 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 4: It was whatever repeated things that got exposed to and 595 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 4: it is still my responsibility because only I can do 596 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 4: that work. And so that work can look like going 597 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,239 Speaker 4: to counseling or therapy, but that work can also look 598 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 4: like doing deep in our self work. And so there's 599 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 4: really a few crucial areas that when we target these 600 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 4: things we can become securely attached. 601 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 3: So crucial area. 602 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 4: Number one is reprogramming core wounds. Our core wounds are 603 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 4: like our relationship baggage. It's whatever we've been afflicted with 604 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 4: as children we will fear as adults. So if you 605 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 4: had a lot of broken trust as a child, you 606 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 4: will as an adult be like. 607 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 3: I will be betrayed, and that's a core wound. 608 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 4: Or if we had a lot of real or perceived 609 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 4: abandonment in childhood, you know, through inconsistency or divorce or 610 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 4: one parent pulls away, you will probably believe I will 611 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 4: be abandoned. As an adult, if you are criticized or neglected, 612 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 4: you will believe I am defective. 613 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 3: And that's how people are going to see me. 614 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 4: And so you can hear that in the different attachment styles, 615 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 4: the fear full avoidant, the anxious that dismissive avoidant. And 616 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 4: so when we can first find our core wounds, we're 617 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 4: not born with these things. We can just rewire them, 618 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 4: and so we rewire them and I can always share 619 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 4: a tool in a little bit, but we rewire them 620 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 4: through repetition, emotion, and imagery because that's what's necessary to 621 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 4: recondition the subconscious mind. 622 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 3: So there's a really easy tool to go through that. 623 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 4: But Number one area court wounds. Number two we learn 624 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 4: our needs and how to meet them ourselves. So each 625 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 4: attachment style is unique needs. Anxious tend to want a 626 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 4: lot more certainty, consistency, validation, encouragement to be made a priority, 627 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 4: to feel important. 628 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 3: Fearful avoidance want a lot of depth. 629 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 4: They want novelty, they want growth in the relationship, they 630 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 4: want deep connection, but they also want freedom and independence 631 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 4: and dismiss of avoidance. They tend to actually respond very 632 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 4: well to acceptance, support, empathy, and then small pieces of 633 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 4: appreciation or acknowledgment and then being able to also have 634 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 4: their freedom and independence. So each attachment style has different needs. 635 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 4: When we learn to meet our own needs and then 636 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 4: number three communicate them to other people, that's like the 637 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 4: framework for how we give and receive love. People talk 638 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 4: about love languages and that's great and it's meaningful, but 639 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 4: meeting each other's needs is much more impactful than the 640 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 4: five love languages and just as an example, like I 641 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 4: have a big love language around quality time. But if 642 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 4: I'm watching a movie on Netflix with somebody versus having 643 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 4: a deep conversation, the deep conversation meets my need for 644 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 4: emotional connection. That's going to be way more important to 645 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 4: me than just quality time. As an overarching theme, like 646 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 4: deeply emotionally connecting with somebody is way better. So our 647 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 4: needs and learning what those are for each of our 648 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 4: unique styles and meeting them for each other is like 649 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 4: this huge set of ingredients and a roadmap to finding 650 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 4: deeper connection and love. SOEs learning to meet our own needs, 651 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 4: learning to communicate our needs to others using healthy strategies. 652 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 4: Sometimes we go you never spend enough time with me, 653 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 4: instead of hey, I miss you. I feel disconnected this week. 654 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 4: I'd love to plan something fun on the weekend. That's 655 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 4: called positive framing. When we positively frame or more likely 656 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 4: to get heard so we can be core wound reprogrammers, 657 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 4: meet our needs, learn to communicate better, and then learn 658 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 4: healthier boundaries in our world. These are four of the 659 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 4: most important components to becoming securely atime. When we can 660 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 4: really target those, we can actually heal any maladaptive patterns 661 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 4: that we were taught and we can leave the relationship 662 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 4: baggage that we have from childhood in the past where 663 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 4: it belongs. 664 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that is so such like a perfect equation. 665 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 2: I feel like and I love that you've spoke about 666 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 2: needs instead of love language. I will say, I think 667 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 2: love languages are like an amazing idea, but there is 668 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 2: not as much research on them as you would probably 669 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 2: like for such a huge term like used in psychobabble. 670 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 2: And something they say is that it's not really a 671 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 2: complete picture of what we need as people and as 672 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 2: emotional beings. You know, five love languages does not make 673 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 2: a relationship, does not make a human like there is 674 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 2: a deeper core need behind each of them that can 675 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 2: be met, not just through that expression that we normally 676 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 2: talk about. Do you think that it's easier to heal? 677 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 2: I'm going to ask you one final question. It's another 678 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 2: hot seat question. So yes, I'm sure you have an 679 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 2: amazing answer, But do you think that it's easier to 680 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 2: heal and avoid an attachment style, dismissive, le fearful when 681 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,720 Speaker 2: you are single or in a relationship. 682 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, what a great question. So I will 683 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 4: say it depends on a number of factors. So we 684 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 4: get this question all the time in our programs. People 685 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 4: will constantly ask me this in like the weekly webinars 686 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 4: we do, and I would say that it depends on 687 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 4: how codependent you are. The reason being that if we 688 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 4: are in a relationship and we're highly codependent, so what 689 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 4: usually this means if you're anxiously attached or even fearful avoidant, 690 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 4: we tend to have a lot of those more codependent 691 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 4: patterns where will kind of people please or put other 692 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 4: people before ourselves, And because people wouldn't share in that 693 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 4: anxious side, it's it's quite a likelihood towards codependency. So 694 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 4: if we are more codependent and we're trying to heal 695 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 4: our attachment style, well in a relationship, sometimes it's hard 696 00:34:54,800 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 4: because we will get really locked into prioritizing the relationship 697 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,439 Speaker 4: over our own self work. But if you're somebody who's 698 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 4: highly committed to your personal growth and it's like a 699 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 4: huge passion and you can really trust yourself to be 700 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,879 Speaker 4: mindful of that, then the reality is we can see 701 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 4: faster progress in a relationship as well, because that's the 702 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 4: real life work, right, that's like where we're really going 703 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 4: to do that work and have to communicate differently and 704 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 4: have to reprogram our core wounds so we don't take 705 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 4: things personally and have to like actually share our needs 706 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 4: with somebody so we can have really profound results in 707 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 4: a short period of time if we're highly committed. If 708 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 4: we're not that committed, we're just kind of dabbling around 709 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 4: and like, oh, you know, I'm kind of I read 710 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 4: about personal growth once a month or something like that. 711 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 4: Then it's going to be easier to stay committed when 712 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 4: we don't have the distraction of codependency by being more 713 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 4: anxious leaning in our attachment style. Dismissive avoidance tend to 714 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 4: actually do really well at healing when in a relationship 715 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,879 Speaker 4: because they're more action oriented, So they tend to do 716 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 4: better when they're actually like showing up if they're committed 717 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 4: to doing so. And so I would say overall, you'll 718 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 4: generally see that easiest to hardest to heal. I would 719 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 4: say anxious and dismissives generally heal a little quicker because 720 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 4: they have less attachment trauma. Fearful avoidance generally have a 721 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 4: little bit more, although when you get them into personal 722 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 4: growth related stuff. They tend to like go a million 723 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,720 Speaker 4: miles an hour and really get stuck into the work 724 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,399 Speaker 4: because they tend to really like the depth of all 725 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 4: of that stuff. Those are those fearful avoidant needs and 726 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,919 Speaker 4: they like growth. But we will see that as long 727 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 4: as somebody is highly committed in or out of a 728 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 4: relationship can work. I personally, when I first started doing 729 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 4: a lot of healing work, was really single for like 730 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 4: three and a half years. I was like not dating 731 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 4: anybody anything, and I was really codependent, and I think 732 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 4: that was good for me. But in retrospect, like I 733 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 4: didn't need three and a half years, Like I could have, 734 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,359 Speaker 4: you know, done the first year or two of work 735 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 4: that I did and then gotten back into relationship and 736 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 4: I had a lot of work to do. But you'll see, 737 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,839 Speaker 4: if people are committed, that's really the overarging factor. Whether 738 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 4: you're in or out of the relationship, are you doing 739 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 4: the work, are you willing to stay consistent with it? 740 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 4: And as long as you're doing that, I think that 741 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 4: you can actually have more of an upside on being 742 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 4: in a relationship because it can create more rapid growth 743 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 4: more quickly. 744 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 2: That is such an amazing answer, and I love how 745 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 2: there's like, it's not just a simple one. You know, 746 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 2: it's not just like no, yeah, you should be single 747 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 2: before you fix this. You know, you need to be 748 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 2: single in order to work through this. It's like, No, 749 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 2: there are a lot of people who are in relationships 750 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,879 Speaker 2: that have been quite successful, but they just want them 751 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 2: to be better, and they just realize that maybe these 752 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 2: won't this won't last if this underlying pattern is not addressed. 753 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 2: So that's kind of all the questions I have for 754 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 2: you today. Thank you so much for coming on the 755 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 2: show and breaking this down. Is there anything else on 756 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 2: avoidant attachment styles, on this on theory that you haven't 757 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 2: mentioned that you want to quickly say something about. 758 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 4: I'll think one last really quick thing, which is that 759 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 4: I find it to also be really be powerful as 760 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 4: an accompanying healing strategy that we do a little bit 761 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 4: of nervous systant regulation work. So if anybody is on 762 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 4: this journey and they can just apply a simple tool 763 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 4: like meditating in the morning, or breath work in the evenings, 764 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 4: or just something that's helping them get out of this 765 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 4: constant fight or flight and just get more back into 766 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 4: their body and present in the relationship to self. 767 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 3: It's usually like the fifth major pillar I'll mention after. 768 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 4: The core wounds and the needs and the boundaries and 769 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 4: communication as this kind of honorable mention that can just 770 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 4: fast track the healing process. 771 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 3: So another really great thing to focus on for sure. 772 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's honestly amazing because I feel like when you're 773 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 2: i don't know, reconstructing how you see love and how 774 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 2: you see others and how you see connection, like, it's 775 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 2: going to be pretty scary and there will definitely be 776 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 2: moments of like distress and moments of perhaps panic and 777 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 2: being able to slow down and say to yourself, this 778 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 2: is just an emotion, this is just a feeling. This 779 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 2: is nothing that's going to end my life, nothing that's 780 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 2: going to ruin my life. It's just my nervous system 781 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 2: doing what it's meant to do, which is respond to 782 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 2: a perceived threat. Yeah, I feel like we're going to 783 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 2: be so much more successful. So thank you again for 784 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 2: coming on a reminder that Ty's had another episode with 785 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 2: us back in December, I think on Anxious Attachment Stars 786 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 2: if you want to go and listen to that one 787 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 2: as well. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please 788 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 2: feel free to leave us a five star review on 789 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts. I don't know wherever you're listening, 790 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 2: and make sure that you're following along. It really does 791 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 2: help the show to grow and to reach new people 792 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 2: who might need to hear some of the things that 793 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 2: we're talking about. If you have an episode suggestion, if 794 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 2: you have a contribution to this episode, something that we 795 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 2: didn't talk about, something that you would want us to 796 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 2: expand on further your own experience, please message me at 797 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 2: that Psychology Podcast. I would love to hear from you, 798 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 2: And as always, until we speak next stay kind, be safe, 799 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 2: and be gentle with yourself. We will be back next week.