WEBVTT - The Sid Meier Story Part 1 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:07.160 Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:13.880 stuff Works dot com. Hey everyone, and welcome to a 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:16.560 tech stuff on Jonathan Strickland and I'm Lauren foc Obaum 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:18.799 the day. We want to do the first of a 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:22.560 two part series on a particular developer of video games. 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:24.840 I mean an actual video game developer, not not a 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:29.040 company a company, but a person and uh uh kind of. 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:32.200 I mean this is someone who has a really interesting 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.280 take on the design of video games and he his 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:38.400 work has been incredibly influential. He's talked about as a 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:41.440 revolutionary or a hero to other game developers. I think 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:43.560 he was named in the top five and one survey 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:46.720 from two thousand nine, right, and he has won numerous awards. 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:50.360 We are, of course talking about sid Meyer. Uh And 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:52.839 so anyone out there who has played a lot of 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.520 computer games, you've probably heard sid Meyer's name, particularly since 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.160 his name is often it's part of the brand. Yeah, 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:03.440 it's featured on the actual game titles. So before we 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:05.320 get into this, I want to give a shout out. 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:09.759 We grab our our information from numerous resources while we're 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:14.920 researching our topics, but one article in particular for this 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:17.399 this part of the podcast was incredibly helpful. And that 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:21.640 was an article written by Jason Schreyer over at Kotaku, 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:25.520 and it was called sid Meyer The Father of Civilization, 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:30.160 So civilization civilization being one of the many titles. Yeah, 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.399 anyway that I would say, that's a must read if 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.319 you are interested in sid Meyer and the story of 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:38.640 civilization as well as just the story of the companies 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:41.839 that sid Meier has been a part of. Go check 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:43.560 out that article. It was based on a series of 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.080 interviews with UM with sid Meyer, UM, a fellow named 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.400 Bill Steely and Um one of the other participants in 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:55.680 the companies, but a series of interviews from so so 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:58.680 it's all really great fresh information. Um. There's another really 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:01.760 terrific article I wanted to mention and um uh an 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:05.040 article in Ghana Sutra called the History of Civilization that 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:07.440 was written by BENJ. Edwards and it was based on 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:11.200 a sid Meyer interview as well. And both of these 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.800 were just terrific instrumental, Yeah, fantastic stuff. You guys should 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:19.120 go read those and and the civilization centric article will 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.399 become really important for the second part of our podcast. 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:24.680 But this first one we're going to focus mostly on 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:29.960 sid Meyer's background and his early years in computer game development. 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:36.519 He was born on February nineteen fifty four in Sarnia, Ontario, Canada. 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:41.640 Wait a minute, this guy's Canadian okay shows over must 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:44.799 that must explain why he's why he's so nice. That 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:48.280 does explain why he's so nice, and and that's not 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:52.480 us being silly or anything. He's been called one of 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:56.040 the nicest video game developers by multiple people. Yeah, it 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.000 seems like everyone who works with him, who has given 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.240 an interview that we could find on the interwebs was 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:03.320 was just full of nothing but nice things to say 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:06.720 about the man personally. I've watched several interviews with him 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:08.919 where he, you know, he was being interviewed by other people, 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:10.880 and again, he just comes across as sort of a 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:14.799 very genuine personal guy who loves to design games. So 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:16.880 it's gonna be really hard for me to be snarky 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.239 in this podcast, But I find places. I think you 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:21.240 will find a way. So um So. He he went 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:24.200 to the University of Michigan and graduated with a degree 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.160 in computer science. This was back when you know, that 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.360 wasn't really a common thing. Yeah. In fact, back in 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.840 those days, he was programming computers through punch cards. So, 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:36.520 if you've listened to earlier episodes of tech Stuff, I 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:38.520 mean way back in the day, you've heard of us 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.240 talk about these punch cards that were uh, you know, 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.760 it was a painstaking process. Your your your program might 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:47.880 consist of more than a hundred punch cards, and you 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:49.800 had to keep them in a precise order for the 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:52.520 program to work properly. If you were to have an 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.720 accident and you had not numbered your punch cards, that's it. 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.800 Your programs ruined. So yeah, um, this the first computer 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:01.960 that he used was at the University of Michigan. It 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.720 was an IBM three sixty main frames. Um learned how 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:08.080 the program in fortran as I recall, right, yeah, yeah, 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:10.560 he at some point used this I mean you know 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:13.280 that this was all time sharing and and uh you 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:15.200 had to sign up for for use of the thing. 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:17.560 And at some point he designed a tic tac toe 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:19.640 game for it, supposedly and almost got kicked out for 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:22.760 wasting computer time right right, essentially, from what I understand, 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.080 one of the administrators of the program called up the 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:30.359 person who was responsible for securing that computer for the 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:32.600 university and said, do you have any idea what the 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:36.560 student is doing? He is wasting valuable resources on games? 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:41.719 Who would ever waste a computer on games? As it 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:45.520 turns out, that was probably one of the silliest things 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:48.880 that someone could say. Also, when he was a kid, 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.839 he had already grown interested in the concept of games. 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:54.840 I mean, of course, he was a very imaginative child. 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:58.279 He talked about how he would play with little toy 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:03.039 soldiers and reenact battles with them. And he credits the 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:06.000 gift that was given to him, a book called the 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:10.320 American Heritage Picture History of the Civil War, as getting 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:14.560 him interested in history, and that obviously becomes very important 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:16.480 with some of the titles that he would produce. So 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.200 right right, I also remember reading that he played a 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:21.760 lot of risk as a kid. Yes, so he he 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.239 liked games, he liked history. These were things that really 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:29.120 interested him. And he loved computers and it still does 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:32.680 love computers and programming. So when you look at all 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:37.400 three of these factors, the computer programing, genuine verd urged 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:41.279 to conquer the world. That's but in a nice way. 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:43.880 You know, he's doing it for your own good, Lauren. 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:47.400 It's it's not that he's got any malice. He just 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:49.960 it's through the development of technology, which we all know 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.600 is a terrific way to win. As Dr Horrible would say, 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:55.520 the world's mess and he just needs to rule it. 0:05:56.400 --> 0:06:00.359 So anyway, uh yeah, he began to wonder, would it 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:03.640 be like if you could go and you know, with 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:07.000 your own abilities, if you were to be able to 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.760 go back into history and take control of some massive 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:14.599 force that had been instrumental in a battle, and and 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:17.800 you were to control them and make different decisions, what 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.360 would be the outcome? And this was kind of the 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.440 seed that would be planted in his head later on 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:27.960 down the road. So, uh, he loved programming, he loved 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:31.400 hacking electronics, and he he would build his own version 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.839 of of games he saw out there, and yeah he 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:39.560 had at eight and um would yeah program his own 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:41.680 kind of versions of like Space Invaders I think is 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:43.880 one of them in basic. Yeah, he said that that 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.240 was one of the earliest games that he developed for 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:49.480 the personal computer. The eight hundred, by the way, had 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:53.760 sixteen kilobytes of memory. Yeah yeah, so, uh, you know, 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:57.720 I'm sure Space Invaders probably was stressing that machine out 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:01.360 a little bit. Yeah. Probably. I am being a little 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.640 silly snarky there, but uh but yeah, he he started 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:09.640 making these. He began to work for General Instruments Corporation 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:13.760 as a programmer, and he also would occasionally bring in 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.600 some of the games he had created and put them 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.480 up on the offices network, and you know, would eventually 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.040 have to have them taken down because productivity in the 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:24.160 office would take a dive. Yeah, it turns out his 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.600 manager would call up that old university guy up and say, hey, 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:31.000 do you know what your former student is doing. Actually 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:33.520 that that's not entirely true, but the same sort of thing. 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:37.160 He was creating games and sharing them and taking enjoyment 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.160 from other people, having a fun time with his games. 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:45.239 And he met someone at General Instruments Corporation who would 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:49.960 become instrumental in those early early days. Uh. A guy 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:55.200 who has a great nickname is John Wild. Bill Steely 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:59.920 usually just called Bill, yeah or wild Bill or wild 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:02.400 but yeah, this this was a guy who had been 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.400 UM major in the Air Force. Yeah. In fact, I 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:07.840 think at the time he still was an active major. 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:12.120 He was a former fighter pilot. So, um, if you 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:15.560 guys don't know what fighter pilots are like, I recommend 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.760 watching the documentary Top Gun. Now, keep in mind that's 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:24.640 Navy pilots, not air force pilots. What you're just staring 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:29.000 at me like like in judgment. I can't I can't imagine. 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:31.880 Why do you not have the need the need for speed? 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:38.040 All right? So, anyway, according to that Kotaku article we 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.920 talked about said Meyer, Meyer and Steely both attended an 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:46.200 electronics trade conference and while they were there, they just 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.840 kind of were exploring and they apparently found a room 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:52.360 full of old arcade machines. Actually at that time they 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:56.000 were new arcade machines, right right, Um, they started playing 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.040 a bunch of them, and Meyer was just beating Steely's 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:02.160 but at all of Steely was getting a little frustrated. 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.000 And then they found the red baron. The red baron 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:09.440 being a flight sim yeah kind of yeah, it was, yeah, 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:11.640 for for what it was at the time, sort of 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.240 a flight simulator. It is kind of a shooter that 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:18.400 was a World War Two based air airplane shooter end up. 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:21.320 And Steely takes one look at it and he says, 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:23.920 this is me. I got this. I'm a fighter pilot. 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:27.120 I am going to rule this. And so Steely stepped 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:29.280 up to the box first and uh and and got 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:31.720 like like on the top three of the Yeah, I 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:35.200 think he actually managed to land the high score, you know, 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:38.560 like like points something like that. So yeah, And it 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:42.920 turns to Myron's like beat that torp, and Meyers steps 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:47.160 up and calmly takes control of the arcade machine. What happened, Lauren? 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:51.000 He doubled Steely's score. Yeah, And then Steely looks and 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.680 and says, wait a minute. I am a fighter pilot. 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:57.200 I am a major in the United States Air Force. 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:01.240 How did you manage to do that? Meyer says, well, 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:03.839 while you were playing, I just memorized the algorithms that 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:10.200 the computer was using. Yeah, that's something you know. I 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.520 actually used to do very similar things when I was 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:15.719 at the arcade. I would my dad watch the way 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:18.240 the computer reacted to other people. I would watch and 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.040 watch people play for a good half hour to an 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:23.240 hour before I would ever put a quarter in, so 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:25.560 I could see what was happening. And I wouldn't just 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.600 wander in blind because the quarters I had were few 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.440 and precious to me, and I did want to play 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:33.720 these arcade games, but I wanted to make the experience 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:36.280 last as long as possible. Now, I will go ahead 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:42.240 and tell you my algorithm recognized recognization skills are really 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.439 minor compared to what Meyer was able to do. Well, 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:47.719 that's that's fair. I think. I think being worse at 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:52.720 s admire than at computer algorithms is it's probably okay, Okay, 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.080 I don't have to feel like I don't have to 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.719 have some sort of inferiority complex over that. No, no, 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:00.200 But so so according to the story, um at there 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:03.400 after this debacle, um, you know, Meyer kind of casually 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:05.360 throughout like, you know, this was a pretty okay game, 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.280 but I could totally write a better one. And Steely's like, uh, 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.120 if you can do that, I can totally sell that game. 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.439 And so Meyer did it. Meyer went home and over 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.440 the next few months designed a a fighter pilot game. Yeah. 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:19.920 In fact, depending upon which version of the story you see, 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.040 and there are different versions, I mean, keep in mind 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.640 that a lot of the information about these early days, 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:26.880 this is stuff that people are talking about decades after 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:29.080 it happened. Oh sure, and it's it's all it's all 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.920 very kind of colloquial, and everyone was kind of joking 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:34.920 around about it and remembering it fondly. But you know, yeah, 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.719 so so get a little fuzzy with the details. But 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.480 depending upon whom you ask, It was like a couple 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:43.320 of weeks beforehand. Then he came back. And again this 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:46.920 also gets a little confusing because, um, there are different 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:51.040 reports on what the very first game Sidmyer made what 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:55.000 it was called. But according to the Kataku article, the 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:57.120 one that they settled on as being this is the 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.880 game we're going to try and sell was called hell 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:04.640 Cat Ace. That was a World War two combat flight simulator. 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.200 And it was more than just a shoot them up, 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:09.920 you know, top scroll game or something. This was a 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.520 game that actually allowed you to take control of World 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.680 War two aircraft and do some advanced piloting maneuvers, things 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:18.960 like impleman turns and loops and you could stall your 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.080 plane out or roll it and all that kind of stuff. 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:25.520 And so they started with with supposedly like like dollars 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:29.520 in startup and you know, self printed copies of the 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.280 game and like xerox copies of the instruction manual and 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:35.920 put them in zip block bags and and started taking 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:39.080 them to hobby stores around town. Yeah. In fact, this 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:42.120 was in Baltimore, Maryland, right right, Yes, uh, yeah, it 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:44.200 was Baltimore, Maryland is where they were based out of. 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:48.640 Because that's where General Instruments had their headquarters. And this 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.040 is not this is not an unusual story, by the way. 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:54.560 This is how early computer games really got started. You 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.319 had programmers who are working out of their homes usually 0:12:57.800 --> 0:12:59.640 most of the time. They were doing this on their 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:02.040 own time. It was not a full time gig yet, 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.240 and they would produce stuff, put them in these bags, 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:08.240 and then sell them at a computer store. And the 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:11.040 computer store would would then mark up the price or whatever. 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.360 And often you would walk in and there'd be a 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:15.360 bulletin board on the side of the wall in the 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.520 computer store. Because keep in mind, these were not computer 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.760 game stores. These were stores that sold computers and computer components. 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:25.760 This was just something else you could buy in that store. 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:27.959 So you would go and there'd be a bolton board 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.559 and there would be thumb tax that would have these games, 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.360 you know, tacked to the side of the bolten board 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.800 and going you basically you would base your your purchase 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.240 decision on what the artwork look like on the xerox 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.880 sheet that was showing through. Yeah, yeah, and I mean 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:45.400 and this was all in the early eighties. I'd say 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.720 eight to eighty one probably is when all of this 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.280 was occurring. Yeah. Yeah. This is at the very dawn 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:52.880 of the personal computer revolution, and of course at this 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:56.240 time the people who owned the personal computers are in 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:59.960 large part hobbyists. There are we're starting to see other 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.599 people by personal computers by the early eighties, but it's 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:07.920 largely still hobbyists. It's a niche market. So um, what 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:12.080 I love is the story about how Steely would convince 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:15.520 stores to carry Hellcat a ce. See. He would actually 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:18.359 travel all the way from New York down to Washington, 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:20.840 d C. That was the area that he would consider 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:25.760 his territory, not just Baltimore. So I'm going to quote 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.560 him from the Kotaku article. Now, this is actually what 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:33.600 Steely told the reporter. He said, I would call computer 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.920 stores and ask to buy Hellcat Ace, and when they 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:39.400 didn't have it, I would yell and scream at them, 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:41.960 what kind of computer store are you? And then I'd 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.760 hang up. I would do that three times in three weeks, 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.960 each time pretending to be a different person. And the 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:51.320 fourth week I'd call and say, hello, this is John Steely. 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.720 I'm a representative with micropros this I've got this game 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.400 called Hellcat Ace, and they'd say, hey, whoa whoa everyone's 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.000 been calling about that. Can you help us get that game? 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.160 Nice one? Steely? Yeah, and you can you can? You 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.160 know this this illustrates the kind of relationship that Steely 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.440 and Meyer had at this time. You know, Steely was 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.240 very much the public persona and very much the get 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.680 him a salesman. And as it turns out, I mean again, 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.520 if you read interviews where you see interviews with Meyer, 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:24.640 you learned that this is exactly the way Meyer wanted 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:28.480 things to go. Because Meyer was a business guy, you know, 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.200 he he wanted the freedom to be able to develop 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:34.040 the games that he thought would be fun and and 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:36.520 this was a great arrangement. He didn't have to worry 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.040 about the business side. He that did not interest him 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.120 at all. I mean, he certainly wanted to make a 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.080 living off of it. That was his dream job, but 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:46.080 he did not want to be the one to have 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:48.760 to handle all those details. That's not his strong suit. 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:52.560 He just wanted to concentrate on making the And this 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:54.920 reminds me a lot. I mean, Lauren and I both 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:56.880 have a lot of friends who are artists, who are 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:00.760 actors or musicians, and many of them on you know, 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.000 wish that they could do that that they could have, 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:05.120 and some of them do have managers or whatever that 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:07.560 you know. That's that's I hear. I hear that all 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:09.720 the time, like someone just going like, why can't someone 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:11.560 just market this for me? I just want to write 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:15.320 another thing. Why can't someone else book me for the 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:19.040 next gig? Because because it's already pouring your love and 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:22.320 energy into what you want to do, that that's that 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:24.760 takes up a lot, you know, and then too, on 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.760 top of that, be the one who's responsible for all 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:31.360 the business side can be absolutely draining. So Maya really 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:34.120 had a great thing going here. He had he had 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:36.160 the guy who was going to do all the legwork 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:38.520 and he got to do all the development work. So 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:41.160 it's a great relationship for both guys at this time. 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:47.040 So um. At first the two continue to work exclusively 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:49.480 for general instruments and they would sell these games and 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.840 time and their free time. But eventually Steely was making 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:57.000 enough money doing this that he could try and create 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:00.560 his own company. In fact, according to Steely, at the 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:04.520 height of this, before he had even founded Micropros, they 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:08.000 were making about two hundred thousand dollars a year just 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:12.080 on computer game sales and and and micropros Uh. Jonathan 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.320 mentioned this name, and that quote from Steely was they 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:19.119 had already started calling themselves micropros Um, which would be 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:21.040 the name of their company in our next bullet point. 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.679 We'll talk about that, but um, but yeah, they had 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:26.439 not actually founded any kind of official company yet, right, 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:28.680 it was. It was kind of a name because otherwise 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.760 you'd say, we're two guys who are wanting to sell 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:34.400 this game to you, and that just doesn't work quite 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:37.640 as it doesn't doesn't have that ring to it. So yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:40.000 So they're still working for General Instruments at that point, 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:42.800 but that would quickly come upon a time where Steely 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:46.080 realized this is something we can do ourselves and we 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:48.760 don't need a day job anymore, or at least Steely 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:52.000 didn't at first. So Steely makes a big jump and 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.240 decides to leave General Instruments in order to work full 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:59.640 time on the micropros project. Now, there's a lot more 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:02.840 to talk talk about with MicroProse, but before we do that, 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:07.240 let's take a quick break and thank our sponsor. Back 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:11.760 to the show, all right, So we've got Steely. He 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:15.160 has left to found micropros himself. Now for the first 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:18.040 year and a half or so of Micropros. This is 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.320 two by the way. For that first year and a half, 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.080 Meyer was still working at General Instruments as a full 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:29.320 time employee and producing games in his off time. Uh, 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:32.639 Steely was concentrating full time on selling the games. And 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:37.240 it wasn't until about midnight three that Meyer felt comfortable 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:40.919 leaving General Instruments and working full time for Micropros. It 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.240 was also that was about the time when Steely could 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:47.880 actually afford to hire him on as a full time employee. So, uh, 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:51.880 now we've got this, this whole company that's starting up, 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:55.000 and it's it's good now to talk about what Meyer 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:58.640 thinks is important when you're making a video game, because 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:02.199 that informs all all of his decisions moving forward as 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:05.080 far as game design is concerned. Right, and um, Meyer 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:07.960 talks a lot about um, you know, a good game 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:13.520 being a series of meaningful choices, give the player interesting choices, 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:16.239 choices that are meaningful and interesting, and that is what 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:19.359 makes a game fun. And and I think that that's 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.080 you know, it's such a simple philosophy. It's one of 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:26.360 those things that's the that it's deceptively simple, because creating 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.159 something that actually feels like a meaningful choice to a 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:34.720 player is easier said than done. But but Meyer was 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:36.640 was really adamant about He says that if it if 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.080 it feels like it doesn't matter what you choose to do, 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:41.520 or or if what you do has little to no 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:44.520 impact on the game, it's not that satisfying. It might 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:48.920 be challenging to play, but it's not necessarily a satisfying experience, 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.400 right And and he also um he He also talks 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:56.000 a lot about wanting to to give players the choice 0:19:56.040 --> 0:20:00.000 to create their own storylines, to not direct the storyline 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:01.960 to directly right right. He didn't want it to have 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:05.080 like his games to have a linear plot for example. 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:07.520 So we think about a lot of games. We talk 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:09.359 about games all the time on tech stuff in the 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:11.320 other shows that we do as well. Yeah, we actually 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:13.720 just did an episode on forward thinking about storytelling, which 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.240 this was reminding me of so much, right right, So, 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:18.560 so for example, we talked in that episode of forward thinking. 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:20.520 By the way, if you guys are not watching and 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:22.520 listening to forward Thinking, go check it out. I think 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:24.760 you would really dig it. If you enjoy tech stuff, 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:27.720 you'll totally enjoy forward thinking. Yeah, I write a friend 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:29.880 Joe joins us for the podcast, and he's just terrific. 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:32.640 He is, and he has that the the ax that 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:36.280 he brings to every podcast. He has a mystical ax. Yeah, 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:41.000 the plastic. Yeah, just don't worry. We're not in danger right, well, 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:44.840 no more so than usual at any rate. In that podcast, 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.760 in the Storytelling podcast, we talked a lot about the 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:50.640 the video game The Last of Us, which is out 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.280 for the PlayStation three now. The Last of Us is, 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:56.479 in my opinion, a wonderful video game. I love it 0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:01.040 very much. However, it is somewhat linear and you could 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:04.240 argue that the choices the player makes do not in 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.359 the end impact the story that much, which is not 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:09.520 the approach that Sidmyer likes to take. He likes to 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:11.320 take a different approach. This does not mean that one 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.200 approach is automatically better or worse than the other. They 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:18.480 are different with different goals. So yeah, my favorite quote 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:20.679 from Meyer about this is I prefer games where the 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:22.720 player can lead the game in the direction that they 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:24.879 want and then they kind of end up with that 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:28.200