1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,716 Speaker 1: Push k. 2 00:00:20,596 --> 00:00:25,596 Speaker 2: Welcome to judging Sam. I'm Liddy Jean Kott. The trial 3 00:00:25,636 --> 00:00:28,836 Speaker 2: of Sam Makemon Freed is now over and our coverage 4 00:00:28,876 --> 00:00:31,796 Speaker 2: is winding down, but there are a few things that 5 00:00:31,876 --> 00:00:34,756 Speaker 2: are still in my mind. While I was at reporting, 6 00:00:35,036 --> 00:00:38,156 Speaker 2: family and friends would often send me articles, and a 7 00:00:38,156 --> 00:00:42,516 Speaker 2: lot of these articles were by one particular writer, Elizabeth Lopato. 8 00:00:42,996 --> 00:00:44,516 Speaker 1: She's a reporter at The Verge. 9 00:00:44,956 --> 00:00:48,916 Speaker 2: Her stories about Sam Magmon Freed were sometimes funny, sometimes empathetic, 10 00:00:49,236 --> 00:00:52,316 Speaker 2: and they were always full of razor sharp insights. I 11 00:00:52,356 --> 00:00:55,556 Speaker 2: am so excited that she's joining me. Liz, thanks for 12 00:00:55,596 --> 00:00:55,996 Speaker 2: being here. 13 00:00:56,556 --> 00:00:57,916 Speaker 1: Let's get into it. 14 00:00:57,916 --> 00:01:01,196 Speaker 2: It's really nice to talk to you inside at a 15 00:01:01,236 --> 00:01:08,556 Speaker 2: normal hour instead of at one am or two am 16 00:01:08,596 --> 00:01:09,716 Speaker 2: in front of the courthouse. 17 00:01:10,036 --> 00:01:12,236 Speaker 3: No, it's amazing that we're not in the dark. I 18 00:01:12,276 --> 00:01:13,396 Speaker 3: think that's fantastic. 19 00:01:15,396 --> 00:01:17,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, what was this whole experience like for you? 20 00:01:18,196 --> 00:01:19,956 Speaker 3: I was kind of like getting shot out of a cannon. 21 00:01:20,036 --> 00:01:20,236 Speaker 2: You know. 22 00:01:20,516 --> 00:01:23,036 Speaker 3: I live in California most of the time, and so 23 00:01:23,836 --> 00:01:25,876 Speaker 3: I was living in New York for a month in 24 00:01:25,916 --> 00:01:30,956 Speaker 3: this sort of terrible bachelor pad with like modular everything 25 00:01:30,996 --> 00:01:33,316 Speaker 3: that came out of cupboards and a kitchen the size 26 00:01:33,356 --> 00:01:36,636 Speaker 3: of a postage stamp, and the trial was about all 27 00:01:36,676 --> 00:01:39,036 Speaker 3: I was doing. You know, I have some friends in 28 00:01:39,076 --> 00:01:40,636 Speaker 3: New York that I got to see on the weekends, 29 00:01:40,676 --> 00:01:44,556 Speaker 3: but really like I would stand outside the courthouse and 30 00:01:44,596 --> 00:01:47,116 Speaker 3: then I would sit through the trial, and then I 31 00:01:47,116 --> 00:01:49,116 Speaker 3: would go home and write, and then I would immediately 32 00:01:49,116 --> 00:01:51,276 Speaker 3: go to bed. So that was like an entire month 33 00:01:51,316 --> 00:01:53,236 Speaker 3: of just really being in it. 34 00:01:54,276 --> 00:01:57,716 Speaker 2: Did you have like a moment of extreme low, like 35 00:01:57,836 --> 00:01:59,836 Speaker 2: my lowest of the low when I was trying to 36 00:02:00,116 --> 00:02:03,716 Speaker 2: sleep on top of my computer on a poncho in 37 00:02:03,756 --> 00:02:06,276 Speaker 2: the rain at three am by the courthouse. That's when 38 00:02:06,316 --> 00:02:08,556 Speaker 2: I was like, how is this my life? 39 00:02:08,716 --> 00:02:09,716 Speaker 1: Did you have like that? 40 00:02:13,236 --> 00:02:15,476 Speaker 3: Did I have a moment like that? I don't think 41 00:02:15,516 --> 00:02:18,876 Speaker 3: I did. I kind of knew what I was getting 42 00:02:18,916 --> 00:02:21,596 Speaker 3: into because this is not my first time doing like 43 00:02:22,196 --> 00:02:26,236 Speaker 3: a pretty hardcore trial outing that that is going to 44 00:02:26,276 --> 00:02:29,596 Speaker 3: necessitate a certain amount of like standing outside. But I 45 00:02:29,636 --> 00:02:34,276 Speaker 3: will say there was a moment when it started raining 46 00:02:34,436 --> 00:02:36,556 Speaker 3: and I was like fully in rain gear and had 47 00:02:36,556 --> 00:02:39,956 Speaker 3: already been standing outside for hours when the rain started, 48 00:02:39,996 --> 00:02:44,036 Speaker 3: where I was like, Okay, well it's a good thing 49 00:02:44,116 --> 00:02:46,596 Speaker 3: I'm outdoorsy, because otherwise I think I would be pretty 50 00:02:46,636 --> 00:02:47,236 Speaker 3: upset by this. 51 00:02:51,796 --> 00:02:54,396 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure you beat me pretty much every single day, 52 00:02:54,596 --> 00:02:56,476 Speaker 2: and most of the days you did make it into 53 00:02:56,516 --> 00:02:58,956 Speaker 2: the courtroom. There was one day where I asked another 54 00:02:58,996 --> 00:03:00,996 Speaker 2: reporter how much I would have to pay him to 55 00:03:01,036 --> 00:03:03,276 Speaker 2: get a spot, and he told me his price was 56 00:03:03,316 --> 00:03:07,316 Speaker 2: two thousand dollars. What what would have your price been? 57 00:03:08,116 --> 00:03:10,236 Speaker 3: So the entire reason and that I was getting into 58 00:03:10,276 --> 00:03:12,276 Speaker 3: the courtroom and I did get in every day, was 59 00:03:12,316 --> 00:03:15,596 Speaker 3: that for me and covering the trial, it was important 60 00:03:15,636 --> 00:03:17,676 Speaker 3: to give people a sense of what it was like 61 00:03:18,276 --> 00:03:21,876 Speaker 3: in the courtroom. You know. There were moments. I think 62 00:03:21,876 --> 00:03:25,476 Speaker 3: the most obvious one was when Sam was having that 63 00:03:25,516 --> 00:03:29,156 Speaker 3: sort of weird evidentiary hearing and there had been an 64 00:03:29,156 --> 00:03:32,756 Speaker 3: objection to the question about whether embezzlement was keeping customer 65 00:03:32,796 --> 00:03:36,916 Speaker 3: money safe, and he answered it anyway, and his lawyer 66 00:03:36,956 --> 00:03:39,756 Speaker 3: was like, Sam, you've been here for weeks now, you 67 00:03:39,796 --> 00:03:43,116 Speaker 3: didn't have to answer that question, and say I was like, 68 00:03:43,116 --> 00:03:45,836 Speaker 3: I know, but I felt like it was important. And 69 00:03:45,876 --> 00:03:47,636 Speaker 3: that was like a very light moment in the courtroom. 70 00:03:47,676 --> 00:03:49,516 Speaker 3: It was really really funny. And then I came out 71 00:03:49,516 --> 00:03:51,876 Speaker 3: of the courtroom and I realized that people were taking 72 00:03:51,876 --> 00:03:54,396 Speaker 3: it as like a rebuke, like his lawyer was mad 73 00:03:54,436 --> 00:03:58,916 Speaker 3: at him. And so there are moments like that where 74 00:03:59,836 --> 00:04:02,636 Speaker 3: actually physically being in the room is important for reading 75 00:04:02,676 --> 00:04:04,516 Speaker 3: the tone and you want to see what sort of 76 00:04:04,596 --> 00:04:07,196 Speaker 3: the jury is seeing. Although the jury wasn't there for this. 77 00:04:08,276 --> 00:04:10,516 Speaker 3: So I guess this is a long winded way of saying, 78 00:04:10,556 --> 00:04:12,476 Speaker 3: like the assignment was for me to get into the courtrooms. 79 00:04:12,556 --> 00:04:14,436 Speaker 3: The answer is you could not have paid me un 80 00:04:14,436 --> 00:04:16,276 Speaker 3: Thus you were going to give me, like, you know, 81 00:04:17,076 --> 00:04:19,196 Speaker 3: enough to cover the my salary. 82 00:04:20,156 --> 00:04:23,196 Speaker 1: Like, yeah, that's so true. I do. 83 00:04:23,316 --> 00:04:25,796 Speaker 2: I remember that moment that you're talking about, and if 84 00:04:25,836 --> 00:04:28,116 Speaker 2: you looked at the transcripts, it could have been interpreted 85 00:04:28,156 --> 00:04:31,116 Speaker 2: one way, and if you're actually there, it seemed really different. 86 00:04:31,876 --> 00:04:33,956 Speaker 2: One of my favorite articles that you wrote early on 87 00:04:34,316 --> 00:04:38,556 Speaker 2: was about the millennial vocabulary that came up during Sam 88 00:04:38,556 --> 00:04:42,876 Speaker 2: Aemunfried's trial. What are some examples of the millennial words 89 00:04:42,916 --> 00:04:44,716 Speaker 2: that were used that you still remember? 90 00:04:45,676 --> 00:04:48,436 Speaker 3: Everything was stuff and things and those are the two 91 00:04:48,476 --> 00:04:50,356 Speaker 3: things that really stood out to me. You know, I 92 00:04:50,436 --> 00:04:54,236 Speaker 3: was looking at these charts, these Excel spreadsheets that Caroline 93 00:04:54,236 --> 00:04:58,276 Speaker 3: Ellison had made, and it would be like she's referring 94 00:04:58,276 --> 00:05:00,796 Speaker 3: to what was she says was a bribe paid to 95 00:05:00,876 --> 00:05:04,156 Speaker 3: Chinese officials, and she was like, you know, several million 96 00:05:04,236 --> 00:05:07,076 Speaker 3: for the thing. And it's like, I am so embarrassed 97 00:05:07,076 --> 00:05:11,196 Speaker 3: from my entire generation right now. This is humiliating. This 98 00:05:11,316 --> 00:05:13,356 Speaker 3: is not even a good code. And also this is 99 00:05:13,396 --> 00:05:17,436 Speaker 3: like such specific internet speak. You know, if you've looked 100 00:05:17,436 --> 00:05:19,556 Speaker 3: at like the Enron documents or any of the other 101 00:05:19,596 --> 00:05:22,556 Speaker 3: sort of documents associated with financial frauds, they're usually a 102 00:05:22,556 --> 00:05:26,636 Speaker 3: little more sophisticated than this, you know, I mean, in 103 00:05:26,716 --> 00:05:31,236 Speaker 3: fairness to Caroline Elison, I think that the sort of 104 00:05:31,516 --> 00:05:34,036 Speaker 3: language she was using was truer to how she spoke 105 00:05:34,356 --> 00:05:37,956 Speaker 3: and was truer to like her personality. So in that sense, 106 00:05:38,076 --> 00:05:44,476 Speaker 3: you know, it's it's it's less embarrassing than some of 107 00:05:44,476 --> 00:05:47,236 Speaker 3: the corporate speak that we've heard. Like, you know, if 108 00:05:47,276 --> 00:05:50,276 Speaker 3: you've ever read a press release where a company is 109 00:05:50,436 --> 00:05:52,156 Speaker 3: kind of trying to hide the fact that they're doing 110 00:05:52,236 --> 00:05:55,556 Speaker 3: layoffs and they're talking about like headcount reductions or like 111 00:05:55,756 --> 00:05:59,756 Speaker 3: strategic restructurings or whatever, there's like a certain kind of 112 00:05:59,836 --> 00:06:04,276 Speaker 3: like goofy bloodlessness to it. And so it's just like, 113 00:06:04,436 --> 00:06:07,196 Speaker 3: I guess a question of which sort of goofy euphemism. 114 00:06:07,236 --> 00:06:10,716 Speaker 3: You want do you want the one that's that Internet speaker. 115 00:06:10,796 --> 00:06:14,036 Speaker 3: Do you want the one that's you know, MBA speak 116 00:06:14,196 --> 00:06:16,116 Speaker 3: because it's going to be Charkin either way. 117 00:06:16,596 --> 00:06:17,316 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 118 00:06:17,356 --> 00:06:20,276 Speaker 2: And the word the thing as a millennial To defend 119 00:06:20,276 --> 00:06:23,116 Speaker 2: it for a second, it's a super versatile word. You 120 00:06:23,116 --> 00:06:25,196 Speaker 2: can say I did a thing, which maybe means you 121 00:06:25,876 --> 00:06:29,196 Speaker 2: bought a house, got engaged. It can also be a 122 00:06:29,556 --> 00:06:32,436 Speaker 2: word used apparently to cover up a massive fraud. The 123 00:06:32,476 --> 00:06:35,556 Speaker 2: thing could be possibly allegedly a bribe. 124 00:06:36,876 --> 00:06:38,356 Speaker 1: It's a word. 125 00:06:38,436 --> 00:06:41,676 Speaker 2: Not many words can cover such a vast array of 126 00:06:41,796 --> 00:06:42,676 Speaker 2: possible meanings. 127 00:06:42,716 --> 00:06:44,996 Speaker 3: And I also have to say when I wrote that, 128 00:06:45,116 --> 00:06:47,756 Speaker 3: I sent it to one of my editors and he 129 00:06:47,956 --> 00:06:50,196 Speaker 3: was like, you have just blown up my entire spot. 130 00:06:50,316 --> 00:06:52,236 Speaker 3: All of my edits sound like this. And I was like, 131 00:06:52,636 --> 00:06:56,516 Speaker 3: I know, Richard, like I'm aware I also talk like this. 132 00:06:57,596 --> 00:07:00,156 Speaker 3: I was hyper aware of every time I said thing 133 00:07:00,236 --> 00:07:03,156 Speaker 3: or stuff I think for the next two weeks where 134 00:07:03,196 --> 00:07:05,036 Speaker 3: I was like, oh my god, I sound just like this. 135 00:07:05,036 --> 00:07:07,076 Speaker 3: This is what I sound like to judging. 136 00:07:07,076 --> 00:07:17,076 Speaker 2: Sam will be back in a minute, we're back. I'm 137 00:07:17,116 --> 00:07:20,236 Speaker 2: also curious, so you know, before you covered the trial 138 00:07:20,236 --> 00:07:23,916 Speaker 2: of Sam Kmunfried. You covered the Elizabeth Holmes trial, and 139 00:07:24,076 --> 00:07:27,636 Speaker 2: I'm curious what similarities and differences you saw between both 140 00:07:27,676 --> 00:07:31,516 Speaker 2: of them. Starting with let's say the similarities, I'm going to. 141 00:07:31,556 --> 00:07:36,316 Speaker 3: Start by saying this is specifically my opinion, but I 142 00:07:36,356 --> 00:07:41,836 Speaker 3: think that there is a similar level of delusion involved 143 00:07:41,956 --> 00:07:45,436 Speaker 3: with both Sam Beckmunfried and Elizabeth Holmes. And the reason 144 00:07:45,436 --> 00:07:48,876 Speaker 3: I say that is that if you go and look 145 00:07:49,236 --> 00:07:54,876 Speaker 3: at the statistics for going to trial against the federal government, 146 00:07:56,156 --> 00:07:59,476 Speaker 3: people don't succeed, you know, in the Southern District of 147 00:07:59,516 --> 00:08:04,636 Speaker 3: New York. Those odds are are terrible. And if you 148 00:08:04,996 --> 00:08:08,316 Speaker 3: just plead guilty and you sort of throw yourself on 149 00:08:08,396 --> 00:08:12,836 Speaker 3: the judge's and you say I've done I've done something terrible, 150 00:08:13,236 --> 00:08:14,996 Speaker 3: I feel bad about it. I want to repay my 151 00:08:15,036 --> 00:08:16,916 Speaker 3: debt to society. One of the things that you can 152 00:08:16,956 --> 00:08:20,956 Speaker 3: possibly do is shorten your sentence because you seem like 153 00:08:21,316 --> 00:08:24,436 Speaker 3: you have accepted that you've done wrong, and you are, 154 00:08:24,676 --> 00:08:26,676 Speaker 3: you know, contrite. 155 00:08:26,476 --> 00:08:29,276 Speaker 1: And you're saving the government a lot of money exactly. 156 00:08:30,196 --> 00:08:34,356 Speaker 3: And so if you are going to trial, it's because 157 00:08:34,396 --> 00:08:38,396 Speaker 3: you think you have a chance of acquittal. I think, 158 00:08:39,036 --> 00:08:44,596 Speaker 3: and both Elizabeth Holmes and Sam Bankman freed were obviously 159 00:08:44,716 --> 00:08:47,196 Speaker 3: very good at talking to people before their fall. They 160 00:08:47,196 --> 00:08:49,196 Speaker 3: were very good at convincing people to give them money, 161 00:08:50,236 --> 00:08:53,796 Speaker 3: and so I think there was some level of, oh, well, 162 00:08:53,836 --> 00:08:56,156 Speaker 3: if I just tell my side of the story, everybody 163 00:08:56,156 --> 00:09:00,156 Speaker 3: will immediately understand, because everybody always understands when I tell 164 00:09:00,196 --> 00:09:02,716 Speaker 3: my side of the story. So that was the big 165 00:09:02,756 --> 00:09:07,596 Speaker 3: similarity I saw. I think Elizabeth Holmes was better at 166 00:09:07,636 --> 00:09:11,956 Speaker 3: that than Sam was. She was certainly better at engendering sympathy. 167 00:09:12,236 --> 00:09:15,356 Speaker 3: It didn't, you know, wind up mattering that much because 168 00:09:15,396 --> 00:09:17,396 Speaker 3: she was still found guilty on most of the counts. 169 00:09:17,836 --> 00:09:19,716 Speaker 2: But you mean, do you mean when she took the stand, 170 00:09:19,756 --> 00:09:22,156 Speaker 2: because they both also took the stand, right. 171 00:09:22,076 --> 00:09:24,876 Speaker 3: Yeah, So when Elizabeth Holmes got on the stand, I 172 00:09:24,916 --> 00:09:28,676 Speaker 3: think she did a much better job of seeming sympathetic, 173 00:09:28,956 --> 00:09:32,516 Speaker 3: and I think in some ways she ameliorated some of 174 00:09:32,556 --> 00:09:35,956 Speaker 3: the damage that had been done by the prosecution, because 175 00:09:35,996 --> 00:09:38,236 Speaker 3: up to that point, every time we had heard her voice, 176 00:09:38,716 --> 00:09:42,836 Speaker 3: it had been a recording of her lying and you know, 177 00:09:43,116 --> 00:09:46,676 Speaker 3: establishing that she was a person, establishing that you know, 178 00:09:46,716 --> 00:09:49,396 Speaker 3: she had a background that you know, there were specific 179 00:09:49,436 --> 00:09:51,356 Speaker 3: things in the company that she was really invested in 180 00:09:51,476 --> 00:09:54,676 Speaker 3: or really believed in. I think that worked to her advantage. 181 00:09:54,796 --> 00:09:57,396 Speaker 3: I think that the evidence in her case was pretty overwhelming, 182 00:09:58,836 --> 00:10:01,516 Speaker 3: but she did They did manage to knock down a 183 00:10:01,516 --> 00:10:05,516 Speaker 3: couple of the charges, specifically the ones related to patients. 184 00:10:06,156 --> 00:10:09,236 Speaker 3: She was found not guilty of defrauding patients, and I 185 00:10:09,316 --> 00:10:13,156 Speaker 3: think that, again, given the overwhelming statistics, when it comes 186 00:10:13,156 --> 00:10:15,676 Speaker 3: to a government prosecution, is actually a pretty big whim 187 00:10:16,556 --> 00:10:18,476 Speaker 3: So in that sense, I think she was much more 188 00:10:18,516 --> 00:10:21,876 Speaker 3: convincing than Sam, partially because she was basically the same 189 00:10:21,916 --> 00:10:24,796 Speaker 3: person on the direct and on the cross. There were 190 00:10:24,836 --> 00:10:28,356 Speaker 3: to certainly times where she seemed uncomfortable, or she seemed nervous, 191 00:10:28,676 --> 00:10:33,236 Speaker 3: or even angry or frustrated, but she was visibly and 192 00:10:34,036 --> 00:10:35,356 Speaker 3: audibly the same. 193 00:10:36,236 --> 00:10:38,996 Speaker 2: I have to ask us did she use the voice? 194 00:10:40,236 --> 00:10:44,796 Speaker 3: Oh my god? So I have a lot of thoughts 195 00:10:44,796 --> 00:10:47,516 Speaker 3: about this. I can't believe I'm about to go to 196 00:10:47,516 --> 00:10:50,236 Speaker 3: bat for Elizabeth Holmes. I think we're the same age. 197 00:10:50,596 --> 00:10:53,796 Speaker 3: There was an idea that the reason women weren't being 198 00:10:53,796 --> 00:10:56,036 Speaker 3: taken seriously in the workplace was just that we didn't 199 00:10:56,036 --> 00:10:59,836 Speaker 3: talk right. We talked to girly, we up talked. It 200 00:10:59,956 --> 00:11:02,676 Speaker 3: was vocal fry and like if you ever heard Matt 201 00:11:02,716 --> 00:11:06,476 Speaker 3: Levine speak, he does all of those things, but nobody cares. 202 00:11:07,316 --> 00:11:12,516 Speaker 3: And so there were women who change the way that 203 00:11:12,556 --> 00:11:14,796 Speaker 3: they spoke and the hopes of being taken more seriously. 204 00:11:14,876 --> 00:11:17,196 Speaker 3: And I think that Elizabeth Holmes probably did that too, 205 00:11:17,796 --> 00:11:19,836 Speaker 3: And so the thing that people think of as being 206 00:11:20,036 --> 00:11:24,156 Speaker 3: quote unquote the voice is actually a response to the 207 00:11:24,276 --> 00:11:28,276 Speaker 3: idea that if she spoke the way that women naturally speak, 208 00:11:28,316 --> 00:11:28,836 Speaker 3: she wasn't. 209 00:11:28,676 --> 00:11:31,636 Speaker 2: Going to be taken seriously by anybody, right, And it's like, 210 00:11:31,676 --> 00:11:33,716 Speaker 2: you can't win, right because if you change the way 211 00:11:33,716 --> 00:11:37,476 Speaker 2: you speak, people are like wondering why you sound different. 212 00:11:37,596 --> 00:11:39,956 Speaker 2: And then if you sound like a woman, people don't 213 00:11:40,036 --> 00:11:41,756 Speaker 2: like that you sound like a woman. So maybe that's 214 00:11:41,756 --> 00:11:44,956 Speaker 2: not a fair thing to hold against her, and maybe 215 00:11:44,996 --> 00:11:48,076 Speaker 2: the fraud is, but maybe the voice is actually a 216 00:11:48,116 --> 00:11:49,516 Speaker 2: bit of a red herring here. 217 00:11:50,116 --> 00:11:52,956 Speaker 3: Yeah, the fraud is totally fair. The voice thing I 218 00:11:52,996 --> 00:11:55,876 Speaker 3: think is, I think that that's sort of a distraction. 219 00:11:56,956 --> 00:11:59,156 Speaker 3: You know, it's people wanting to say that she's so fake, 220 00:11:59,236 --> 00:12:01,476 Speaker 3: that even her voice is fake, that everything about her 221 00:12:01,556 --> 00:12:04,116 Speaker 3: is fake, and I just don't think that's true. But 222 00:12:04,556 --> 00:12:07,436 Speaker 3: you know, I certainly understand how when somebody carries off 223 00:12:07,436 --> 00:12:11,436 Speaker 3: a fraud of that scale comes possible to think, you know, 224 00:12:11,516 --> 00:12:14,396 Speaker 3: all of these quirks are these real too? And I 225 00:12:14,396 --> 00:12:16,716 Speaker 3: think there was some of that with Sam as well, 226 00:12:16,916 --> 00:12:19,516 Speaker 3: you know. And so in Sam's case, it's like the 227 00:12:19,516 --> 00:12:22,236 Speaker 3: wild hair and like he's kind of unkempt and a 228 00:12:22,236 --> 00:12:25,316 Speaker 3: little shaggy because he doesn't care about what he looks like, 229 00:12:25,356 --> 00:12:27,156 Speaker 3: because he's not shallow like the. 230 00:12:27,076 --> 00:12:29,356 Speaker 1: Rest of us thinking of that deeper things. 231 00:12:29,796 --> 00:12:33,196 Speaker 3: Right, And you know, I do think that that was 232 00:12:33,236 --> 00:12:35,756 Speaker 3: an image thing, but I also suspect it's an image 233 00:12:35,756 --> 00:12:38,796 Speaker 3: thing that came from something real. I do think that 234 00:12:38,916 --> 00:12:42,236 Speaker 3: on some level he probably doesn't care that much about 235 00:12:42,916 --> 00:12:47,196 Speaker 3: what he looks like, and that you know, underneath any 236 00:12:47,276 --> 00:12:49,356 Speaker 3: kind of image making, if it's going to be successful, 237 00:12:49,396 --> 00:12:52,116 Speaker 3: there is like a stratum of something real. Like we 238 00:12:52,116 --> 00:12:55,836 Speaker 3: were looking at the photos of him from his frat days, 239 00:12:55,836 --> 00:12:57,476 Speaker 3: Like there was that photo of him with Gary Wong, 240 00:12:57,836 --> 00:13:00,876 Speaker 3: and he's dressed the same way, and like, certainly like 241 00:13:01,036 --> 00:13:04,796 Speaker 3: branding is an important part of business, but the branding 242 00:13:04,876 --> 00:13:07,396 Speaker 3: does come from the way this guy actually did dress. 243 00:13:07,716 --> 00:13:10,716 Speaker 3: So you know, it's one of those things whereas like 244 00:13:10,756 --> 00:13:13,836 Speaker 3: there's not the sharp delineation between what's real and what's 245 00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:15,556 Speaker 3: not that I think a lot of people would. 246 00:13:15,356 --> 00:13:17,276 Speaker 1: Like, Yeah, it's interesting. 247 00:13:17,316 --> 00:13:19,396 Speaker 2: But they also are both parallel in the sense that, 248 00:13:20,236 --> 00:13:22,076 Speaker 2: and I think you wrote about this, they both did 249 00:13:22,676 --> 00:13:25,236 Speaker 2: make themselves into characters, and that's part of what made 250 00:13:25,236 --> 00:13:28,996 Speaker 2: them so compelling to write about, right, Yeah, or became characters. 251 00:13:29,116 --> 00:13:31,556 Speaker 2: I guess it's arguable how much they did it on purpose, 252 00:13:32,196 --> 00:13:34,116 Speaker 2: but to some degree it feels like they both must 253 00:13:34,116 --> 00:13:37,196 Speaker 2: have a little bit been making themselves into characters. 254 00:13:37,956 --> 00:13:39,556 Speaker 3: I think it was more than a little bit. They 255 00:13:39,596 --> 00:13:44,036 Speaker 3: both had hired very powerful pr people, and so you know, 256 00:13:44,196 --> 00:13:47,076 Speaker 3: I do think that they had these images that were 257 00:13:47,076 --> 00:13:50,836 Speaker 3: shaped for them, but I think the images came from 258 00:13:50,876 --> 00:13:53,716 Speaker 3: something underneath that that was real. Because again, like if 259 00:13:53,716 --> 00:13:56,676 Speaker 3: you're thinking about marketing, you're thinking about advertising, the most 260 00:13:56,716 --> 00:13:59,436 Speaker 3: powerful stuff you can use is the truth, you know, 261 00:14:01,596 --> 00:14:04,836 Speaker 3: So there is some sort of stratum under there where 262 00:14:04,876 --> 00:14:07,196 Speaker 3: there is a thing that's real and it's just been 263 00:14:07,516 --> 00:14:10,356 Speaker 3: you know, presented in a certain way or polished to 264 00:14:10,396 --> 00:14:14,676 Speaker 3: a certain sheen that makes it into a character or 265 00:14:14,676 --> 00:14:17,996 Speaker 3: even a caricature that's then easier for people to digest 266 00:14:18,036 --> 00:14:20,036 Speaker 3: and easier for people to write about, and easier for 267 00:14:20,036 --> 00:14:21,756 Speaker 3: people to think about and that sort of sticks in 268 00:14:21,796 --> 00:14:22,156 Speaker 3: the mind. 269 00:14:23,316 --> 00:14:25,436 Speaker 2: I remember, I think, I remember you telling me that 270 00:14:25,516 --> 00:14:28,196 Speaker 2: you felt a little bit differently about Elizabeth Holmes after 271 00:14:28,236 --> 00:14:29,036 Speaker 2: she took the stand. 272 00:14:30,276 --> 00:14:33,676 Speaker 3: I felt again, I felt more sympathetic to her. I 273 00:14:33,716 --> 00:14:36,356 Speaker 3: still felt that she had probably done what she was 274 00:14:36,396 --> 00:14:40,036 Speaker 3: accused of, but she was successfully humanized herself, and so 275 00:14:40,356 --> 00:14:42,556 Speaker 3: in that sense, I think her testimony was successful in 276 00:14:42,636 --> 00:14:45,236 Speaker 3: making me sympathetic in a way that Sam's was not. 277 00:14:45,996 --> 00:14:47,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my question. 278 00:14:47,636 --> 00:14:52,156 Speaker 2: What impact did Sam Mankman Free taking the stand have 279 00:14:52,516 --> 00:14:53,796 Speaker 2: on how you thought about the case? 280 00:14:54,196 --> 00:14:57,476 Speaker 3: You know, there are a couple of things, and one 281 00:14:57,516 --> 00:15:01,716 Speaker 3: of the big ones is the obvious lying. Just the 282 00:15:01,876 --> 00:15:05,796 Speaker 3: obvious lying that took place on the cross examination. And 283 00:15:05,796 --> 00:15:08,196 Speaker 3: there were places where I think Elizabeth Holmes was obviously 284 00:15:08,236 --> 00:15:12,276 Speaker 3: obfus skating to but she wasn't being presented with something 285 00:15:12,316 --> 00:15:14,916 Speaker 3: she'd obviously said and then going oh, I don't remember that, 286 00:15:15,356 --> 00:15:18,756 Speaker 3: you know, especially because we had all of this detailed 287 00:15:18,836 --> 00:15:21,916 Speaker 3: recollection of his glory days at Jane Street on the 288 00:15:21,956 --> 00:15:24,396 Speaker 3: direct where he was remembering stuff that had happened five 289 00:15:24,476 --> 00:15:26,836 Speaker 3: ten years before, and then we get to the cross 290 00:15:26,836 --> 00:15:29,116 Speaker 3: and he can't remember what he said last week come on, 291 00:15:30,076 --> 00:15:33,156 Speaker 3: So there was That was something that really I think 292 00:15:33,516 --> 00:15:35,636 Speaker 3: changed how I felt about him, because coming off of 293 00:15:35,676 --> 00:15:39,436 Speaker 3: the direct, he did manage to present what I think 294 00:15:39,516 --> 00:15:41,996 Speaker 3: was probably something like the old Sam mcmunfried. He was 295 00:15:42,036 --> 00:15:45,036 Speaker 3: occasionally charming, He managed to tell a story pretty well. 296 00:15:45,556 --> 00:15:48,316 Speaker 3: There were moments in which you sort of where he 297 00:15:48,396 --> 00:15:50,996 Speaker 3: was funny, I think, and where I think he could 298 00:15:51,036 --> 00:15:54,636 Speaker 3: be convincing, even though there were definitely moments where he 299 00:15:54,716 --> 00:15:57,556 Speaker 3: was definitely answering a question that was not the question 300 00:15:57,596 --> 00:15:59,196 Speaker 3: that was put to him, and that seemed to get 301 00:15:59,196 --> 00:16:01,596 Speaker 3: on the judge's nerves quite a bit because it was 302 00:16:01,636 --> 00:16:05,596 Speaker 3: a recurring phenomenon and it's not how court works. You 303 00:16:05,596 --> 00:16:07,756 Speaker 3: can do that with journalists, but you can't do that 304 00:16:07,836 --> 00:16:10,756 Speaker 3: under oath. They'll ask the same question again. You're on 305 00:16:10,796 --> 00:16:15,116 Speaker 3: their time, so the you know, I think that the 306 00:16:15,196 --> 00:16:23,276 Speaker 3: direct mostly worked for him, except that he was providing 307 00:16:23,276 --> 00:16:27,316 Speaker 3: an alternative explanation for something that we had heard several 308 00:16:27,316 --> 00:16:30,876 Speaker 3: witnesses corroborating each other's stories on and he was the 309 00:16:30,916 --> 00:16:34,436 Speaker 3: only person providing that explanation and he had no documentation 310 00:16:34,556 --> 00:16:36,796 Speaker 3: to come with it, and like that was one of 311 00:16:36,796 --> 00:16:38,876 Speaker 3: the things that I think the prosecution really had going 312 00:16:38,916 --> 00:16:41,516 Speaker 3: for them is that even though a lot of you know, 313 00:16:43,436 --> 00:16:46,756 Speaker 3: text messages, slack messages, all of those things had been destroyed, 314 00:16:47,676 --> 00:16:50,996 Speaker 3: they still had some emails, and they had some spreadsheets, 315 00:16:51,036 --> 00:16:55,316 Speaker 3: and they had some memos, and that provided sort of 316 00:16:55,356 --> 00:16:59,716 Speaker 3: an undergirding for the testimony. So that was a big 317 00:16:59,756 --> 00:17:01,836 Speaker 3: part of it. And the other piece of it was 318 00:17:01,876 --> 00:17:08,476 Speaker 3: that he seemed to be trying to thread the needle 319 00:17:08,796 --> 00:17:14,196 Speaker 3: in a way that he was not exactly lying, but 320 00:17:14,316 --> 00:17:21,196 Speaker 3: he wasn't exactly telling the truth, and that read both 321 00:17:21,196 --> 00:17:23,636 Speaker 3: as arrogant and untrustworthy, I think, at least to me, 322 00:17:23,996 --> 00:17:28,156 Speaker 3: where he would start, you know, these sort of word 323 00:17:28,196 --> 00:17:31,756 Speaker 3: salad answers with to my recollection, as I recall at 324 00:17:31,796 --> 00:17:37,116 Speaker 3: the time, whatever jargon, jargon, jargon, jargon, jargon, and then 325 00:17:37,156 --> 00:17:39,756 Speaker 3: the judge would say something like, so you're saying you 326 00:17:39,796 --> 00:17:42,756 Speaker 3: could do whatever you wanted, essentially, and then Sam would 327 00:17:42,756 --> 00:17:44,716 Speaker 3: have to say yes, because that was what he meant. 328 00:17:45,396 --> 00:17:47,636 Speaker 3: And that was like about the document retention policy, you 329 00:17:47,676 --> 00:17:51,356 Speaker 3: may recall. So there were these moments where he just 330 00:17:53,716 --> 00:17:57,196 Speaker 3: he made himself read as much more untrustworthy than I 331 00:17:57,196 --> 00:18:00,036 Speaker 3: think he needed to, and so that made me a 332 00:18:00,036 --> 00:18:03,996 Speaker 3: lot less sympathetic to him, even though I think maybe 333 00:18:04,036 --> 00:18:08,796 Speaker 3: a lot of the circumstances around THERENOS and FTX were similar. 334 00:18:10,156 --> 00:18:12,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think what you're saying is kind of 335 00:18:12,596 --> 00:18:14,436 Speaker 2: making me think that maybe, at the end of the day, 336 00:18:15,076 --> 00:18:18,556 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Holmes was just better at people than say, makemen freed. 337 00:18:19,276 --> 00:18:22,516 Speaker 3: Oh, that's definitely true. Elizabeth Holmes's big skill was people. 338 00:18:23,756 --> 00:18:28,916 Speaker 3: And I was thinking about it because with a lot 339 00:18:28,996 --> 00:18:31,756 Speaker 3: of these folks where you're told someone is charming, like 340 00:18:32,316 --> 00:18:34,476 Speaker 3: I'm thinking of like Adam Newman at WEE Work, even 341 00:18:34,516 --> 00:18:37,356 Speaker 3: though he hasn't done anything fraudulent. He just enriched himself 342 00:18:37,396 --> 00:18:40,316 Speaker 3: and told everybody what he was doing. But the skills 343 00:18:40,396 --> 00:18:44,036 Speaker 3: don't always translate on screen, so you might see a 344 00:18:44,036 --> 00:18:46,556 Speaker 3: clip of this person and just being like, why why 345 00:18:46,596 --> 00:18:49,116 Speaker 3: were people following him? I don't get it. But with 346 00:18:49,196 --> 00:18:51,396 Speaker 3: Elizabeth Holmes, the thing that she was really good at, 347 00:18:51,436 --> 00:18:52,996 Speaker 3: I think, and we got this in a lot of 348 00:18:52,996 --> 00:18:57,236 Speaker 3: the testimony was making other people feel heard and feel important. 349 00:18:57,596 --> 00:18:59,516 Speaker 3: And that was the thing that we would hear over 350 00:18:59,596 --> 00:19:02,876 Speaker 3: and over again, was that you'd bring her a concern 351 00:19:03,756 --> 00:19:05,996 Speaker 3: and it sounded like she was taking it seriously and 352 00:19:06,036 --> 00:19:09,876 Speaker 3: really listening to you. And then Sunny Balani and be like, 353 00:19:09,876 --> 00:19:14,636 Speaker 3: we're not doing that, and also you suck and obviously 354 00:19:14,676 --> 00:19:18,156 Speaker 3: the two of them were coordinating. But her skill set 355 00:19:18,236 --> 00:19:21,676 Speaker 3: was really making people feel important, and that was part 356 00:19:21,676 --> 00:19:24,836 Speaker 3: of you know, that's that's a fairly important people skill. 357 00:19:24,956 --> 00:19:27,276 Speaker 3: Like that is a really good people skill, like being 358 00:19:27,276 --> 00:19:32,036 Speaker 3: able to make someone feel listened to, and Sam is 359 00:19:32,076 --> 00:19:32,716 Speaker 3: not good at that. 360 00:19:33,756 --> 00:19:35,956 Speaker 2: So what do you think you know from watching the 361 00:19:35,996 --> 00:19:40,076 Speaker 2: trial following the case, at some point he did build 362 00:19:40,076 --> 00:19:43,756 Speaker 2: this company that was very successful. What was his skill set? 363 00:19:44,996 --> 00:19:51,036 Speaker 3: I think Sam was uniquely suited to crypto because he 364 00:19:51,116 --> 00:19:55,396 Speaker 3: made people feel like if they didn't understand him, it 365 00:19:55,436 --> 00:19:59,556 Speaker 3: was because they were too stupid to understand him. Just 366 00:19:59,716 --> 00:20:05,876 Speaker 3: real talk thinking about like the way that he answered 367 00:20:05,956 --> 00:20:10,436 Speaker 3: questions when they were put to him, and also Nishad 368 00:20:10,516 --> 00:20:13,356 Speaker 3: Singh's testimony that he found Sam really intimidating. I think 369 00:20:13,396 --> 00:20:18,556 Speaker 3: probably a lot of people found Sam really intimidating, and 370 00:20:19,116 --> 00:20:23,876 Speaker 3: so I think there was a certain element of being 371 00:20:23,916 --> 00:20:28,516 Speaker 3: able to make other people feel stupid and feel that 372 00:20:28,596 --> 00:20:31,476 Speaker 3: he was smart and they were dumb. That was part 373 00:20:31,476 --> 00:20:36,076 Speaker 3: of what built that empire, because you know, there is 374 00:20:36,116 --> 00:20:40,676 Speaker 3: a it's a strategy you can do that you can 375 00:20:40,716 --> 00:20:42,916 Speaker 3: bowldlose your way through people if you want. It's not 376 00:20:42,956 --> 00:20:46,636 Speaker 3: a strategy I personally would recommend, particularly because it tends 377 00:20:46,676 --> 00:20:48,796 Speaker 3: to leave a lot of really pissed off people behind you. 378 00:20:50,996 --> 00:20:53,756 Speaker 3: But it can work. And so if you think about, 379 00:20:54,636 --> 00:20:59,276 Speaker 3: you know, going into a VC meeting and playing a 380 00:20:59,356 --> 00:21:03,036 Speaker 3: video game during it while you're answering these questions, which 381 00:21:03,076 --> 00:21:06,036 Speaker 3: is a very famous anecdote. Right, he did that several times. 382 00:21:06,756 --> 00:21:09,516 Speaker 3: To me, that reads as arrogant and insulting. That's not 383 00:21:09,596 --> 00:21:11,596 Speaker 3: somebody I want to work with. That's not somebody who 384 00:21:11,636 --> 00:21:13,596 Speaker 3: I think is going to be receptive to my ideas 385 00:21:13,756 --> 00:21:17,156 Speaker 3: or who I want to trust with my money. But 386 00:21:17,276 --> 00:21:19,996 Speaker 3: to other people, I can certainly see that reading as like, 387 00:21:20,076 --> 00:21:22,116 Speaker 3: this guy is so smart he doesn't actually have to 388 00:21:22,116 --> 00:21:24,396 Speaker 3: pay attention to me in order to answer my questions. 389 00:21:24,836 --> 00:21:27,596 Speaker 3: This guy is so far beyond what I'm doing that 390 00:21:28,116 --> 00:21:34,076 Speaker 3: our conversation isn't enough to stimulate him, and so he 391 00:21:34,116 --> 00:21:37,116 Speaker 3: can simultaneously do two or three other things and not 392 00:21:37,196 --> 00:21:41,276 Speaker 3: miss abeit. Ge whiz. He's so smart, right. 393 00:21:41,156 --> 00:21:44,036 Speaker 2: And it's perfect for an industry that's kind of built 394 00:21:44,196 --> 00:21:47,556 Speaker 2: on people maybe not fully understanding it, but feeling a 395 00:21:47,556 --> 00:21:49,676 Speaker 2: bit dumb about not fully understanding it. 396 00:21:50,596 --> 00:21:55,916 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. I mean I have explained NFTs to 397 00:21:56,076 --> 00:21:59,316 Speaker 3: a number of people, and every time I explain it 398 00:21:59,436 --> 00:22:02,716 Speaker 3: to a normal person, they say, wait, is that it is? 399 00:22:02,716 --> 00:22:05,876 Speaker 3: That all? And I'm like, yes, that's it. That's all. 400 00:22:06,276 --> 00:22:08,796 Speaker 3: There's no other extra, like there's you're not stupid, Like 401 00:22:08,836 --> 00:22:11,956 Speaker 3: that's what it is. And so I think this is 402 00:22:11,956 --> 00:22:17,076 Speaker 3: an industry where being able to use jargon in that 403 00:22:17,156 --> 00:22:19,836 Speaker 3: way can really convince people that they want to be 404 00:22:19,916 --> 00:22:21,996 Speaker 3: in on this like cool new technology that they don't 405 00:22:22,036 --> 00:22:24,996 Speaker 3: totally understand, but you know, if they don't get them 406 00:22:25,036 --> 00:22:26,556 Speaker 3: on the ground level, they're going to miss out. And 407 00:22:26,556 --> 00:22:29,476 Speaker 3: that fear of missing out is huge in crypto. I 408 00:22:29,476 --> 00:22:32,076 Speaker 3: think it's one of the main motivating forces actually for 409 00:22:32,156 --> 00:22:34,596 Speaker 3: a lot of sort of crypto shenanigans that we see. 410 00:22:35,436 --> 00:22:40,076 Speaker 3: And simultaneously, during that period where Sam was seeking investment, 411 00:22:40,396 --> 00:22:42,396 Speaker 3: that fear of missing out was a huge part of 412 00:22:42,436 --> 00:22:45,956 Speaker 3: the VC industry because all of this money had come 413 00:22:45,996 --> 00:22:49,436 Speaker 3: slashing into VC due to the low interest rates, and 414 00:22:49,756 --> 00:22:51,796 Speaker 3: so there wasn't you know, there weren't as many other 415 00:22:51,836 --> 00:22:54,156 Speaker 3: places you could park your money and make a decent return, 416 00:22:54,676 --> 00:22:56,716 Speaker 3: and so they had to find companies that looked like 417 00:22:56,756 --> 00:23:01,796 Speaker 3: they were going to be like powerhouses that would pay 418 00:23:01,796 --> 00:23:03,756 Speaker 3: off for this investment. And so you see the sort 419 00:23:03,756 --> 00:23:07,476 Speaker 3: of like the speed at which people were investing suggests 420 00:23:07,476 --> 00:23:10,156 Speaker 3: that almost no due diligence was being done. And we 421 00:23:10,156 --> 00:23:12,916 Speaker 3: saw that with Theranose too, Like there was a long 422 00:23:12,996 --> 00:23:15,396 Speaker 3: discussion of the due diligence that the vcs had done 423 00:23:15,396 --> 00:23:17,836 Speaker 3: on theraphose, and in many cases it was pretty minimal, 424 00:23:17,916 --> 00:23:20,916 Speaker 3: if there was any. So there was that kind of 425 00:23:21,036 --> 00:23:24,196 Speaker 3: environment where being able to make a strong first impression, 426 00:23:24,756 --> 00:23:29,076 Speaker 3: even without any kind of documentation or whatever, really really mattered. 427 00:23:29,276 --> 00:23:31,436 Speaker 3: And so making other people feel that he was super 428 00:23:31,476 --> 00:23:33,236 Speaker 3: smart and super on top of things and in this 429 00:23:33,316 --> 00:23:35,716 Speaker 3: hot new industry and he understood it and you didn't, like, 430 00:23:35,796 --> 00:23:37,916 Speaker 3: I think that that was a fairly powerful. 431 00:23:37,516 --> 00:23:40,396 Speaker 2: Thing, right, That makes sense. They're kind of like opposites. 432 00:23:40,396 --> 00:23:43,436 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Holmes made you feel special, you know, and therefore 433 00:23:43,436 --> 00:23:45,916 Speaker 2: you should give her your money. And Sam Magmunfried, I 434 00:23:45,916 --> 00:23:48,076 Speaker 2: guess made you feel like he was special, and therefore 435 00:23:48,076 --> 00:23:49,156 Speaker 2: you should give him your money. 436 00:23:49,996 --> 00:23:52,236 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's right. That's a good way of putting. 437 00:23:51,956 --> 00:24:02,196 Speaker 1: It, judging. Sam will be back in a minute. We're back. 438 00:24:03,196 --> 00:24:05,996 Speaker 2: I'm curious about you know, you write about tech a lot, 439 00:24:06,076 --> 00:24:08,396 Speaker 2: and it feels like there's been all these tech CEOs, 440 00:24:08,436 --> 00:24:10,356 Speaker 2: you've had these falls from grace. 441 00:24:11,636 --> 00:24:13,316 Speaker 1: Do you think that's going to have any impact on 442 00:24:13,356 --> 00:24:16,756 Speaker 1: the industry. 443 00:24:17,356 --> 00:24:21,596 Speaker 3: I don't know. I think one of the things that's 444 00:24:21,636 --> 00:24:24,036 Speaker 3: underappreciated about the tech industry is how much of it 445 00:24:24,076 --> 00:24:26,796 Speaker 3: is about marketing. And if you look all the way 446 00:24:26,796 --> 00:24:29,236 Speaker 3: back to Steve Jobs, a lot of the big Apple 447 00:24:29,316 --> 00:24:34,276 Speaker 3: moments are actually about marketing. And Apple's marketing department is 448 00:24:34,756 --> 00:24:39,236 Speaker 3: really integrated in terms of how they design products. It's 449 00:24:39,276 --> 00:24:41,316 Speaker 3: not just you know, the tech people come up with 450 00:24:41,316 --> 00:24:43,756 Speaker 3: something and then the marketing department sells it. The marketing 451 00:24:43,796 --> 00:24:48,476 Speaker 3: department is involved in the design. So I think in 452 00:24:48,516 --> 00:24:54,556 Speaker 3: that sense that renders the tech industry vulnerable to people 453 00:24:54,556 --> 00:24:57,476 Speaker 3: who are good at marketing in a way that maybe 454 00:24:57,476 --> 00:25:00,196 Speaker 3: some other industries are not. I don't know that it's 455 00:25:00,276 --> 00:25:05,356 Speaker 3: uniquely vulnerable. If you think about some of the scandals 456 00:25:05,356 --> 00:25:09,116 Speaker 3: that we've had over the years in the pharmat industr, 457 00:25:09,356 --> 00:25:13,756 Speaker 3: for instance, they've also been marketing related. So you know, 458 00:25:13,836 --> 00:25:19,276 Speaker 3: there was a big scandal boy about a decade ago 459 00:25:19,636 --> 00:25:24,436 Speaker 3: where a lot of pharmaceutical industries were selling antipsychotics for 460 00:25:24,556 --> 00:25:29,196 Speaker 3: indications they weren't approved for. Marketing is often the place 461 00:25:29,236 --> 00:25:32,236 Speaker 3: where you start to see this stuff happening. It's where 462 00:25:32,276 --> 00:25:34,796 Speaker 3: people promise stuff that they maybe aren't going to deliver. 463 00:25:34,956 --> 00:25:39,436 Speaker 3: So if you think about, for instance, Fire Festival, another 464 00:25:39,556 --> 00:25:44,516 Speaker 3: famous millennial fraud, the part that he was good at 465 00:25:45,036 --> 00:25:49,396 Speaker 3: was marketing. The part that people really got, you know, 466 00:25:49,876 --> 00:25:52,636 Speaker 3: got down. The part that made Fire Festival looks something, 467 00:25:53,076 --> 00:25:57,076 Speaker 3: looks so cool basically was all marketing. It was all marketing, 468 00:25:57,436 --> 00:25:59,676 Speaker 3: and they just there was nothing underneath it to support 469 00:25:59,676 --> 00:26:02,956 Speaker 3: the marketing. There there was no actual festival. And so 470 00:26:03,436 --> 00:26:08,636 Speaker 3: I think any industry where marketing is that important can 471 00:26:08,716 --> 00:26:12,276 Speaker 3: lead to sort of the cart pulling the horse right 472 00:26:12,356 --> 00:26:15,276 Speaker 3: where the marketing department gets all the way out there 473 00:26:15,836 --> 00:26:20,876 Speaker 3: and there's nothing underneath. And I think that was part 474 00:26:20,916 --> 00:26:24,996 Speaker 3: of what happened in FTX. And there was this sort 475 00:26:25,036 --> 00:26:27,996 Speaker 3: of marketing powerhouse that Sam had going and that he 476 00:26:28,116 --> 00:26:32,556 Speaker 3: was very good at. Obviously, like people knew what FTX was. 477 00:26:32,596 --> 00:26:35,316 Speaker 3: There was a Super Bowl ad, there was the FTX arena, 478 00:26:35,556 --> 00:26:38,796 Speaker 3: Like this was something that people were very aware of 479 00:26:39,956 --> 00:26:41,556 Speaker 3: in a way that they maybe were not aware of 480 00:26:41,556 --> 00:26:45,396 Speaker 3: other crypto companies. Like, for instance, Kraken or Coinbase, which 481 00:26:45,436 --> 00:26:50,316 Speaker 3: had been around longer. So I think that that emphasis 482 00:26:50,316 --> 00:26:57,316 Speaker 3: on marketing is part of what can be dangerous. So yeah, 483 00:26:57,356 --> 00:26:59,556 Speaker 3: I guess I don't know that the tech industry itself, 484 00:26:59,636 --> 00:27:01,676 Speaker 3: that the tech piece of this is the problem. I 485 00:27:01,676 --> 00:27:04,076 Speaker 3: think that the problem comes back to the thing that's 486 00:27:04,076 --> 00:27:06,796 Speaker 3: a problem in every industry, which is usually the marketing department. 487 00:27:07,316 --> 00:27:10,596 Speaker 2: Right, there's just a lot of any for marketing in tech. 488 00:27:11,956 --> 00:27:12,796 Speaker 3: Yes, definitely. 489 00:27:14,076 --> 00:27:14,796 Speaker 1: Are there any. 490 00:27:14,636 --> 00:27:18,996 Speaker 2: Moments from covering the trial of sam akmn Freed that 491 00:27:19,036 --> 00:27:20,556 Speaker 2: you think are really going to stick with you, or 492 00:27:20,596 --> 00:27:23,076 Speaker 2: like one particular moment that you think might stick with 493 00:27:23,116 --> 00:27:25,036 Speaker 2: you that you can see, you know, when you think 494 00:27:25,036 --> 00:27:27,076 Speaker 2: about the trial years from now, that you might still 495 00:27:27,116 --> 00:27:27,996 Speaker 2: think about that moment. 496 00:27:28,996 --> 00:27:31,196 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think one of the big ones actually was 497 00:27:31,236 --> 00:27:35,076 Speaker 3: pretty early, and it was Adam you DiDia. I got 498 00:27:35,076 --> 00:27:37,876 Speaker 3: out of his testimony and immediately texted my best friend, 499 00:27:38,116 --> 00:27:41,036 Speaker 3: who I was also college roommates with and who I 500 00:27:41,116 --> 00:27:44,036 Speaker 3: still see on a very regular basis. I texted, her, 501 00:27:44,956 --> 00:27:48,036 Speaker 3: if you ever testify against me, I am so fucked 502 00:27:48,996 --> 00:27:55,396 Speaker 3: like just imagining how pissed off and betrayed Adam Youydidio 503 00:27:55,396 --> 00:27:57,676 Speaker 3: would have to feel in order to agree to this 504 00:27:58,316 --> 00:28:00,996 Speaker 3: really is striking to me, because you know, if you 505 00:28:00,996 --> 00:28:02,796 Speaker 3: think about the people you're really loyal to and the 506 00:28:02,796 --> 00:28:06,236 Speaker 3: people you really love and what you would be willing 507 00:28:06,276 --> 00:28:10,276 Speaker 3: to do for them, you can serve imagine him being like, no, 508 00:28:10,276 --> 00:28:12,836 Speaker 3: I'm going to plead the fifth to everything. It's going 509 00:28:12,916 --> 00:28:14,996 Speaker 3: to be the fifth the whole way. And that's not 510 00:28:15,036 --> 00:28:18,836 Speaker 3: what he did. So that really stuck with me great. 511 00:28:18,836 --> 00:28:20,636 Speaker 2: And he didn't have to testify. It's not like he 512 00:28:20,716 --> 00:28:21,796 Speaker 2: had been charged with anything. 513 00:28:22,396 --> 00:28:24,236 Speaker 3: He hadn't been charged with anything, he didn't have a 514 00:28:24,276 --> 00:28:28,836 Speaker 3: cooperation agreement. So choosing to testify in that way suggested 515 00:28:28,916 --> 00:28:34,916 Speaker 3: someone who is genuinely very angry, very angry, and maybe 516 00:28:34,916 --> 00:28:37,476 Speaker 3: who felt very very betrayed by somebody he had once loved, 517 00:28:37,556 --> 00:28:40,356 Speaker 3: and so that was really striking to me. The other 518 00:28:40,396 --> 00:28:45,956 Speaker 3: big one was watching Sam's parents react to the verdict, which, 519 00:28:46,916 --> 00:28:49,596 Speaker 3: you know, we saw some evidence that they were involved 520 00:28:49,596 --> 00:28:53,076 Speaker 3: in FTX. How involved, I don't know, and I'm not 521 00:28:53,116 --> 00:28:55,476 Speaker 3: going to pretend that I have any good answers about that, 522 00:28:56,996 --> 00:29:00,356 Speaker 3: but there is something if you've ever seen a parent 523 00:29:00,396 --> 00:29:04,156 Speaker 3: in anguish, there's something about that that really sticks with 524 00:29:04,196 --> 00:29:10,836 Speaker 3: you and watching them receive the verdict and not only 525 00:29:10,876 --> 00:29:13,196 Speaker 3: receive the verdict and experience that anguish, but experience the 526 00:29:13,236 --> 00:29:17,636 Speaker 3: anguish in a room full of reporters and having no 527 00:29:18,036 --> 00:29:21,756 Speaker 3: privacy in that moment that really stuck with me. Like, 528 00:29:21,756 --> 00:29:26,516 Speaker 3: there was this moment where his father sort of doubled 529 00:29:26,556 --> 00:29:29,836 Speaker 3: over and his mother had her hands over her face, 530 00:29:30,476 --> 00:29:32,716 Speaker 3: and I watched the courtroom artist who was seated in 531 00:29:32,716 --> 00:29:35,996 Speaker 3: the row in front of them, turn around and start 532 00:29:35,996 --> 00:29:39,316 Speaker 3: sketching them, and you can see the sketch. It's out 533 00:29:39,316 --> 00:29:42,596 Speaker 3: there if you look. And it was such a genuinely 534 00:29:42,636 --> 00:29:45,756 Speaker 3: horrible moment, and it was also such a hugely public moment, 535 00:29:46,516 --> 00:29:49,396 Speaker 3: and those combination of things, like, really, that really stuck 536 00:29:49,436 --> 00:29:49,676 Speaker 3: with me. 537 00:29:51,316 --> 00:29:53,876 Speaker 1: Lizlie Patta, thank you so much for joining us. 538 00:29:54,396 --> 00:29:56,276 Speaker 3: Thank you, Lydia Jean, It's been great. 539 00:29:58,596 --> 00:30:01,196 Speaker 4: This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by Lydia Jean 540 00:30:01,276 --> 00:30:05,236 Speaker 4: kot Our court reporter Catherine Girardeau and Nisha Venken produced 541 00:30:05,236 --> 00:30:08,716 Speaker 4: this show. Sophie Crane is our editor. Our music was 542 00:30:08,756 --> 00:30:12,836 Speaker 4: composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans of stell Wagons Symphonet. 543 00:30:13,476 --> 00:30:16,796 Speaker 4: Judging Sam is a production of Pushkin Industries. 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