1 00:00:16,897 --> 00:00:28,337 Speaker 1: Pushkin Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus. 2 00:00:28,857 --> 00:00:33,417 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts. 3 00:00:34,017 --> 00:00:37,417 Speaker 1: Members will get access to exclusive bonus content like my 4 00:00:37,497 --> 00:00:40,177 Speaker 1: weekly bookmarks, where I talk about how I got a 5 00:00:40,217 --> 00:00:42,617 Speaker 1: book agent and what I'm watching on TV that week. 6 00:00:43,217 --> 00:00:46,977 Speaker 1: You'll get uninterrupted listening to many of your favorite podcasts 7 00:00:47,257 --> 00:00:52,177 Speaker 1: like Revisionist History, Cautionary Tales, and The Happiness Lab. Sign 8 00:00:52,257 --> 00:00:54,577 Speaker 1: up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple 9 00:00:54,657 --> 00:01:07,617 Speaker 1: podcast or at pushkin dot Fm. Whenever we think about epics, 10 00:01:07,657 --> 00:01:11,457 Speaker 1: we think about the deeds of men. That's poet and 11 00:01:11,577 --> 00:01:15,177 Speaker 1: novelists on or ray for known Jeffers. It was always 12 00:01:15,217 --> 00:01:20,257 Speaker 1: about men, and no one that taught me these epics 13 00:01:20,257 --> 00:01:25,897 Speaker 1: ever challenged that this was great, that this was about me. 14 00:01:26,257 --> 00:01:29,177 Speaker 1: And I've been a feminist ever since I was a 15 00:01:29,177 --> 00:01:32,177 Speaker 1: little bitty group, and so I would always say, well, 16 00:01:32,217 --> 00:01:36,337 Speaker 1: where are the ladies? The ladies are in her latest book, 17 00:01:36,657 --> 00:01:40,617 Speaker 1: an epic novel called The Love Songs of w Eb Devoys, 18 00:01:41,257 --> 00:01:44,697 Speaker 1: The book spanned several generations of women from a Southern 19 00:01:44,737 --> 00:01:48,017 Speaker 1: Black family. It took her more than a decade to 20 00:01:48,057 --> 00:01:51,697 Speaker 1: write this epic story not just about women, but about 21 00:01:51,817 --> 00:01:56,697 Speaker 1: black Women, and it paid off. Her debut novel won 22 00:01:56,737 --> 00:01:59,617 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty two Fiction Prizes from a National Book 23 00:01:59,617 --> 00:02:03,097 Speaker 1: Critic Circle. It's a book that I now consider a 24 00:02:03,137 --> 00:02:06,377 Speaker 1: literary classic, and I encourage folks to read it all 25 00:02:06,457 --> 00:02:22,817 Speaker 1: of the time. Welcome to well Read Black Girl, the 26 00:02:22,937 --> 00:02:26,697 Speaker 1: literary kickback you didn't even know you needed. I'm your host, 27 00:02:26,737 --> 00:02:30,977 Speaker 1: Glory Adam. Every week I talked to writers and thinkers 28 00:02:31,017 --> 00:02:33,857 Speaker 1: about their craft and how their work shows up in 29 00:02:33,897 --> 00:02:39,137 Speaker 1: the world. This week I'm with Honore Finn Jeffers, and 30 00:02:39,297 --> 00:02:43,777 Speaker 1: our conversation we talk about her early childhood, her writing process, 31 00:02:44,057 --> 00:02:58,697 Speaker 1: and how poets like Lucille Clifton influenced her work. Honor, 32 00:02:58,977 --> 00:03:01,457 Speaker 1: it is an honored to be in conversation with you. 33 00:03:01,937 --> 00:03:06,497 Speaker 1: I have been a longtime fan, and I was stunned 34 00:03:06,777 --> 00:03:10,017 Speaker 1: by just the beauty and the grace of your novel, 35 00:03:10,457 --> 00:03:13,457 Speaker 1: and I'm excited to talk to you and the community 36 00:03:13,617 --> 00:03:18,297 Speaker 1: all about it. The pleasure and the honor is all mine. Well, 37 00:03:18,377 --> 00:03:21,777 Speaker 1: I have so many questions, but I think what I 38 00:03:21,857 --> 00:03:24,897 Speaker 1: want to do is start from the very very beginning. 39 00:03:25,217 --> 00:03:28,817 Speaker 1: I highlighted so many parts of your novel. I was 40 00:03:28,857 --> 00:03:32,817 Speaker 1: just taken by your sentences and just the beauty of them. 41 00:03:33,097 --> 00:03:35,617 Speaker 1: And I'm going to read one of your sentences back 42 00:03:35,657 --> 00:03:39,257 Speaker 1: to you because it's all in my notes. The opening line, 43 00:03:40,257 --> 00:03:43,937 Speaker 1: we are the earth, the land, the tongue that speaks 44 00:03:43,937 --> 00:03:46,337 Speaker 1: and trips on the names of the dead as it 45 00:03:46,497 --> 00:03:51,377 Speaker 1: dares to tell these stories of a woman's line, her people, 46 00:03:51,577 --> 00:03:55,937 Speaker 1: her dirt, her trees, her water. It's such a perfect 47 00:03:55,937 --> 00:04:00,977 Speaker 1: opening because it also it illustrates the power of your 48 00:04:01,017 --> 00:04:03,817 Speaker 1: writing and the power of your voice. And I'm really 49 00:04:03,817 --> 00:04:07,257 Speaker 1: curious to hear when did you really start to understand 50 00:04:07,297 --> 00:04:11,817 Speaker 1: the command of your language and how to persuade people 51 00:04:11,817 --> 00:04:14,017 Speaker 1: on the page, and you do it so beautifully as 52 00:04:14,017 --> 00:04:16,577 Speaker 1: a poet. And to see this in your first novel, 53 00:04:16,737 --> 00:04:22,897 Speaker 1: Dark Crime, that's why I got my Kleenex right greatly. 54 00:04:23,097 --> 00:04:27,137 Speaker 1: You moved me so much. Thank you just telling you 55 00:04:27,177 --> 00:04:30,497 Speaker 1: the truth. It is just so profound to read your writing, 56 00:04:30,697 --> 00:04:33,937 Speaker 1: and when you encounter it, you have to sit with it, 57 00:04:34,217 --> 00:04:36,857 Speaker 1: and you witness it in your poetry, and now you 58 00:04:36,857 --> 00:04:39,537 Speaker 1: see it in your first and to say first novel, 59 00:04:39,577 --> 00:04:42,297 Speaker 1: I'm so astounded that this is your first because it 60 00:04:42,737 --> 00:04:46,657 Speaker 1: just is so epic. It took eleven years, so I 61 00:04:46,697 --> 00:04:49,577 Speaker 1: think that that's what people need to understand this was 62 00:04:49,697 --> 00:04:54,137 Speaker 1: not something that I put together in two years or 63 00:04:54,177 --> 00:04:57,737 Speaker 1: three years. And I was writing The Age of Phillis 64 00:04:57,777 --> 00:05:02,577 Speaker 1: at the same time, and so I was in this space. 65 00:05:03,097 --> 00:05:05,617 Speaker 1: But when you talk about when did I first learn 66 00:05:05,697 --> 00:05:10,337 Speaker 1: the command, do you mean just period or with the 67 00:05:10,457 --> 00:05:13,777 Speaker 1: no novel? You know, let's go into both. But I'm 68 00:05:14,017 --> 00:05:16,537 Speaker 1: I would love for you to recall a memory as 69 00:05:16,537 --> 00:05:20,897 Speaker 1: a child. Oh wow, okay, well it's not my memory. 70 00:05:20,937 --> 00:05:26,097 Speaker 1: It's my mama's memory. She remembers that I was five 71 00:05:26,777 --> 00:05:29,817 Speaker 1: and I came to her and I said, this is 72 00:05:29,857 --> 00:05:32,457 Speaker 1: a story that I wrote, and I want you to 73 00:05:32,537 --> 00:05:39,537 Speaker 1: get it published. Absolutely. I don't remember that. That's so arrogant, 74 00:05:39,617 --> 00:05:43,217 Speaker 1: poor a little girl, right, But I do remember. You know, 75 00:05:43,297 --> 00:05:46,457 Speaker 1: my father was a well known Black Arts Movement poet. 76 00:05:47,497 --> 00:05:51,577 Speaker 1: I resisted being a writer for so long because I 77 00:05:51,617 --> 00:05:55,937 Speaker 1: had a very difficult relationship with my father, and he 78 00:05:56,097 --> 00:06:00,217 Speaker 1: cast a very big shadow, and he was very brilliant. 79 00:06:01,137 --> 00:06:05,977 Speaker 1: I first read Toadstoy because he gave me Toastory to read. 80 00:06:06,937 --> 00:06:10,217 Speaker 1: Now I was like eleven years old, and so we 81 00:06:10,257 --> 00:06:16,337 Speaker 1: would go to poetry readings of his and my father 82 00:06:16,457 --> 00:06:20,857 Speaker 1: had this deep barit a tone voice and he would 83 00:06:21,017 --> 00:06:25,497 Speaker 1: transform when he would do these poetry readings, and women 84 00:06:25,537 --> 00:06:29,097 Speaker 1: would weep and people would shout, like it was in 85 00:06:29,217 --> 00:06:32,737 Speaker 1: church or something like that. There was just like a power, 86 00:06:32,977 --> 00:06:36,457 Speaker 1: and I thought I could never be that, and so 87 00:06:37,177 --> 00:06:40,737 Speaker 1: I had my little journals and I scribbled and all 88 00:06:40,777 --> 00:06:43,737 Speaker 1: of that. There were other moments I won't say in 89 00:06:43,817 --> 00:06:49,457 Speaker 1: terms of creatively, but there were moments where I realized, 90 00:06:50,577 --> 00:06:53,977 Speaker 1: and this is gonna sound strange for a child, that 91 00:06:54,057 --> 00:07:01,137 Speaker 1: my power was very disturbing two adults. I had another teacher, 92 00:07:01,777 --> 00:07:04,457 Speaker 1: and you can't defame the dead, so I can call 93 00:07:04,537 --> 00:07:08,817 Speaker 1: her name Missus Ratliffe. And I remember in seventh grade, 94 00:07:08,897 --> 00:07:13,097 Speaker 1: Missus Ratliffe to me to come. I love Miss Ratleffe. 95 00:07:13,097 --> 00:07:15,857 Speaker 1: She was my science teacher. She had a ponytail. She's 96 00:07:15,897 --> 00:07:18,137 Speaker 1: a white lady, and it would bounce up and down 97 00:07:18,577 --> 00:07:21,537 Speaker 1: when she was explaining science to us and all that. 98 00:07:21,777 --> 00:07:25,257 Speaker 1: I adored her. So one day Miss Ratliffe told me 99 00:07:25,377 --> 00:07:28,537 Speaker 1: she had something very serious and important to talk to 100 00:07:28,577 --> 00:07:31,257 Speaker 1: me about, and she wanted me to stay after school. 101 00:07:31,657 --> 00:07:34,537 Speaker 1: So I was going through my memory like what did 102 00:07:34,577 --> 00:07:38,297 Speaker 1: I say? What did I do to just please miss Ratliffe? 103 00:07:38,297 --> 00:07:42,497 Speaker 1: Because I adored her, and so she closed the door, 104 00:07:42,977 --> 00:07:45,937 Speaker 1: and you know, it was just us, and she said 105 00:07:46,937 --> 00:07:52,937 Speaker 1: she was very concerned by how loud I was. I 106 00:07:52,977 --> 00:07:56,297 Speaker 1: spoke way too loud and girls could not be loud. 107 00:07:57,457 --> 00:08:03,297 Speaker 1: And this is a woman in the Stamfield, so I know, 108 00:08:02,897 --> 00:08:05,657 Speaker 1: I know, I was thinking, well, you know, even as 109 00:08:05,657 --> 00:08:08,697 Speaker 1: a child, of course, I was just thinking. This lady 110 00:08:08,817 --> 00:08:11,657 Speaker 1: is a scientist. And she told this about there weren't 111 00:08:11,697 --> 00:08:14,937 Speaker 1: a lot of ladies in the sciences and here she is, 112 00:08:15,137 --> 00:08:18,297 Speaker 1: you know. So she kept on going and she said, 113 00:08:18,977 --> 00:08:21,737 Speaker 1: this is when I knew there was something about me 114 00:08:23,057 --> 00:08:27,697 Speaker 1: that must have been frightening, because she went out of 115 00:08:27,737 --> 00:08:32,097 Speaker 1: her way to destroy me. She said, if you don't 116 00:08:32,297 --> 00:08:38,177 Speaker 1: learn how to lower your voice, no one will like you, 117 00:08:38,617 --> 00:08:42,017 Speaker 1: and you will never find a man to love you. Oh, 118 00:08:42,337 --> 00:08:45,377 Speaker 1: you will never find a husband. And she just kept 119 00:08:45,377 --> 00:08:49,577 Speaker 1: one And in that moment, I knew I must be 120 00:08:49,977 --> 00:08:56,497 Speaker 1: really special, because this lady is going out of her 121 00:08:56,577 --> 00:09:01,257 Speaker 1: way to be mean to me. And I couldn't really 122 00:09:01,377 --> 00:09:07,217 Speaker 1: understand what was happening, but I remember that, Yeah, I 123 00:09:07,337 --> 00:09:13,577 Speaker 1: remember that, and I thought, WHOA. I never told my 124 00:09:13,617 --> 00:09:17,737 Speaker 1: mother because I knew my ah, I knew my mother 125 00:09:17,977 --> 00:09:21,577 Speaker 1: was going to she wouldn't have it more than she 126 00:09:21,617 --> 00:09:24,817 Speaker 1: wouldn't have had it. It would have been like smoke 127 00:09:25,097 --> 00:09:28,057 Speaker 1: in the city, you know. And so I never told 128 00:09:28,177 --> 00:09:32,337 Speaker 1: my mother, but I remember writing a poet based upon 129 00:09:32,417 --> 00:09:34,217 Speaker 1: that when I was in graduate school. It wasn't a 130 00:09:34,337 --> 00:09:37,657 Speaker 1: very good point. None of my poems were getting graduate school. 131 00:09:37,697 --> 00:09:42,697 Speaker 1: But I remember the last line was silence can't get 132 00:09:42,737 --> 00:09:48,137 Speaker 1: me a witness, And I think that was the true moment. 133 00:09:48,177 --> 00:09:51,377 Speaker 1: But I will say miss Ratliffe gave me a very 134 00:09:51,457 --> 00:09:56,337 Speaker 1: odd gift, you know. And I was twelve. Then, well, 135 00:09:56,377 --> 00:09:59,777 Speaker 1: these moments happened at a young age, and they leave 136 00:09:59,857 --> 00:10:03,097 Speaker 1: such a firm impression on who you will become, because 137 00:10:03,137 --> 00:10:05,537 Speaker 1: it's not you have to be careful with what you 138 00:10:05,617 --> 00:10:08,937 Speaker 1: say to children. It's true. It's so true because you 139 00:10:08,937 --> 00:10:11,177 Speaker 1: could have taken that moment and I could have had 140 00:10:11,177 --> 00:10:13,817 Speaker 1: the reverse effects. You could have gotten quieter, and you 141 00:10:13,817 --> 00:10:16,657 Speaker 1: could have just went inward and not spoken to people. 142 00:10:16,897 --> 00:10:20,857 Speaker 1: But instead you found a moment to be powerful and 143 00:10:21,017 --> 00:10:27,137 Speaker 1: more of yourself. I really think. And I don't need 144 00:10:27,337 --> 00:10:30,697 Speaker 1: everybody or even want everybody to believe in God. My 145 00:10:30,817 --> 00:10:34,017 Speaker 1: thing is everybody has their belief or nonbelief or whatever. 146 00:10:34,257 --> 00:10:37,457 Speaker 1: And I'm respectful, and you know, most of my friends 147 00:10:37,537 --> 00:10:41,617 Speaker 1: or atheists, but I do think that God had his 148 00:10:41,937 --> 00:10:48,057 Speaker 1: her their hand upon me. I think everybody's got something. 149 00:10:49,297 --> 00:10:54,177 Speaker 1: My blessing was that I found what it was, and 150 00:10:54,257 --> 00:10:58,657 Speaker 1: I have a deep belief that everybody's got something extraordinary 151 00:10:58,737 --> 00:11:02,577 Speaker 1: within them. The problem is is that some people are 152 00:11:02,697 --> 00:11:05,737 Speaker 1: not writers and they try to make themselves be writers, 153 00:11:05,817 --> 00:11:08,657 Speaker 1: or some people are not dancers and they try to 154 00:11:08,737 --> 00:11:11,937 Speaker 1: make themselves be dancers. But I think everyone has something. 155 00:11:12,457 --> 00:11:15,097 Speaker 1: I have so many questions for you because I think 156 00:11:15,137 --> 00:11:18,697 Speaker 1: that also what's so beautiful about how you work is 157 00:11:18,737 --> 00:11:22,377 Speaker 1: your relationship to history. And I think you knowing your 158 00:11:22,417 --> 00:11:25,937 Speaker 1: family history, you knowing the boys, you just knowing the 159 00:11:26,017 --> 00:11:30,177 Speaker 1: history of America allows us to have this epic tale. 160 00:11:30,377 --> 00:11:32,657 Speaker 1: And you said before that you wanted to write a 161 00:11:32,737 --> 00:11:35,377 Speaker 1: kitchen table epic. Can you explain to me what that 162 00:11:35,497 --> 00:11:38,417 Speaker 1: means and how you even came to that conclusion that 163 00:11:38,697 --> 00:11:42,057 Speaker 1: that's what you wanted to tell the world in terms 164 00:11:42,097 --> 00:11:46,017 Speaker 1: of the kitchen table epic. Whenever we think about epics, 165 00:11:46,017 --> 00:11:49,737 Speaker 1: we think about the deeds of men. I was an 166 00:11:49,817 --> 00:11:54,857 Speaker 1: English major, and you know, I read Bail Wolf and 167 00:11:55,137 --> 00:12:00,417 Speaker 1: when we read translated excerpts from Odisseus, it was always 168 00:12:00,417 --> 00:12:05,457 Speaker 1: about men, and no one that taught me these epics 169 00:12:05,457 --> 00:12:11,257 Speaker 1: ever challenged that this was great, that this was about men. 170 00:12:11,657 --> 00:12:14,537 Speaker 1: And I been a feminist ever since I was a 171 00:12:14,577 --> 00:12:17,617 Speaker 1: little bitty girl, and so I would always say, well, 172 00:12:17,617 --> 00:12:21,217 Speaker 1: where are the ladies? And so when I first started 173 00:12:21,257 --> 00:12:23,537 Speaker 1: writing a book, I was just getting in where I 174 00:12:23,577 --> 00:12:26,377 Speaker 1: fit in, right, I was just writing. And that's what 175 00:12:26,457 --> 00:12:29,857 Speaker 1: I do. I write these pieces and then I'll sit 176 00:12:29,937 --> 00:12:32,777 Speaker 1: with them and then I'll start. You're a little young 177 00:12:33,017 --> 00:12:37,057 Speaker 1: to remember the original Soul Train, but they're used to 178 00:12:37,137 --> 00:12:42,137 Speaker 1: be watched three runs, okay, you know the Soul Train 179 00:12:42,377 --> 00:12:45,897 Speaker 1: scramble board, and they were doing this right. And that's 180 00:12:45,937 --> 00:12:49,137 Speaker 1: what I do, Right. I write something and I say, oh, 181 00:12:49,217 --> 00:12:51,457 Speaker 1: this will fit. You know, I have a little outline. 182 00:12:52,137 --> 00:12:55,257 Speaker 1: But when I began to think about it, and I thought, 183 00:12:55,617 --> 00:12:59,857 Speaker 1: why not an epic journey but of black women? Yes, 184 00:13:01,297 --> 00:13:04,777 Speaker 1: not just women, but black women, because sometimes my white 185 00:13:04,817 --> 00:13:10,017 Speaker 1: sisters are under the mistaken impression that their empowerment is 186 00:13:10,017 --> 00:13:13,737 Speaker 1: our bad, right, you know, if you know they say 187 00:13:14,097 --> 00:13:18,777 Speaker 1: women A and black people and I'm like, no, I 188 00:13:18,897 --> 00:13:23,937 Speaker 1: need me. After the break more with Honora Enne Jeffers 189 00:13:23,937 --> 00:13:27,777 Speaker 1: on how her academic work continues to give literary elders 190 00:13:27,777 --> 00:13:45,017 Speaker 1: like Lucille Clifton and Tony Morrison their flowers. I'm Glory Adam, 191 00:13:45,057 --> 00:13:48,177 Speaker 1: and you're listening to well read Black Girl today. I'm 192 00:13:48,257 --> 00:13:52,137 Speaker 1: joined by Honora Venne Jeffers, author of the Love Songs 193 00:13:52,177 --> 00:14:00,777 Speaker 1: of W. E. B. Du Boys, your affection for du 194 00:14:00,777 --> 00:14:03,177 Speaker 1: boys from the title, and just like the framing of 195 00:14:03,257 --> 00:14:06,457 Speaker 1: the entire book, why did you choose sorrow songs to 196 00:14:06,537 --> 00:14:12,297 Speaker 1: frame everything? Oh? Oh, when I was a little girl 197 00:14:12,737 --> 00:14:16,697 Speaker 1: and we would go down south every summer to Eatonton, Georgia. 198 00:14:17,177 --> 00:14:21,057 Speaker 1: So Chickaseete is a fictional him, but in my mind 199 00:14:21,097 --> 00:14:23,937 Speaker 1: it's based on Eatington. But I don't know Eatonton because 200 00:14:23,937 --> 00:14:26,897 Speaker 1: I didn't grow up there. I only remember it as 201 00:14:26,897 --> 00:14:31,017 Speaker 1: a child and a young girl. And then I started 202 00:14:31,057 --> 00:14:35,577 Speaker 1: thinking about this is the indigenous folks land. It's still 203 00:14:35,697 --> 00:14:40,657 Speaker 1: belongs to them. Even if Georgia is taken over by this, 204 00:14:40,817 --> 00:14:45,937 Speaker 1: that and the other, It's still the land of the 205 00:14:46,017 --> 00:14:49,537 Speaker 1: Creek and the Cherokee and the young across and all 206 00:14:49,577 --> 00:14:53,297 Speaker 1: of those original folks that live there. And so I 207 00:14:53,337 --> 00:14:57,817 Speaker 1: wanted to have a non Western kind of way to 208 00:14:58,057 --> 00:15:04,137 Speaker 1: enter into, like almost a biblical lineage. And being very 209 00:15:04,177 --> 00:15:07,217 Speaker 1: respectful that it wasn't biblical, but when I think as 210 00:15:07,257 --> 00:15:11,377 Speaker 1: a little girl, those were sort of my elders voices 211 00:15:11,577 --> 00:15:14,977 Speaker 1: and then the voices of the King James Bible. So 212 00:15:15,017 --> 00:15:17,577 Speaker 1: I was sort of thinking about how could I flip 213 00:15:17,697 --> 00:15:22,657 Speaker 1: the Bible and make that a non Western way of 214 00:15:22,977 --> 00:15:28,097 Speaker 1: entering into this sacred place and this sacred lineage. And 215 00:15:28,137 --> 00:15:32,377 Speaker 1: so that's that's how I started that. And I've talked 216 00:15:32,377 --> 00:15:36,377 Speaker 1: about this frequently. Alice Walker's from Eatonton. My mother taught 217 00:15:36,417 --> 00:15:42,857 Speaker 1: Alice Walker. Miss Walker wrote a review, a beautiful review, 218 00:15:42,897 --> 00:15:48,937 Speaker 1: Oh God, a beauty all day law stunning, and I 219 00:15:48,977 --> 00:15:52,057 Speaker 1: didn't even know she had written it. She wrote it 220 00:15:52,097 --> 00:15:57,497 Speaker 1: back in September. Somebody posted it and you know, tweeted 221 00:15:57,537 --> 00:16:00,737 Speaker 1: it and tagged me, and I was like, oh my god, 222 00:16:00,817 --> 00:16:04,257 Speaker 1: my world is round now, right, But doesn't that feel 223 00:16:04,297 --> 00:16:08,417 Speaker 1: like destiny? From your mother teaching Alice Walker to her 224 00:16:08,537 --> 00:16:14,297 Speaker 1: no reviewing, and just like, like, how not all? It 225 00:16:15,057 --> 00:16:18,137 Speaker 1: feels like the Lord word. I have to tell you, 226 00:16:19,017 --> 00:16:23,217 Speaker 1: I have some real tough times grown up, and there 227 00:16:23,257 --> 00:16:25,977 Speaker 1: were times where I really feel like I wouldn't make it, 228 00:16:26,137 --> 00:16:31,177 Speaker 1: and I'll just say that, and so to be here 229 00:16:31,897 --> 00:16:35,777 Speaker 1: because I would get these not real voices, but like 230 00:16:35,857 --> 00:16:38,777 Speaker 1: a feeling when I would be in the midst of 231 00:16:38,897 --> 00:16:42,817 Speaker 1: despair as a child, as a teenager, as a young 232 00:16:42,897 --> 00:16:48,137 Speaker 1: woman that said something better. It's gonna be down the 233 00:16:48,217 --> 00:16:53,537 Speaker 1: road if you just have that faith. And so yeah, 234 00:16:53,577 --> 00:16:58,697 Speaker 1: I feel it really rocks my worlds sometimes when I 235 00:16:58,817 --> 00:17:02,257 Speaker 1: think about it. But to talk about the sorrow songs, 236 00:17:02,297 --> 00:17:06,777 Speaker 1: when I would go down south to my grandma's church, 237 00:17:06,857 --> 00:17:10,417 Speaker 1: flat right primitive Baptists, and they would line out the 238 00:17:10,697 --> 00:17:16,297 Speaker 1: songs right, and the old people they would have this 239 00:17:16,417 --> 00:17:20,577 Speaker 1: beautiful sort of way that they would drag through a song, 240 00:17:21,297 --> 00:17:32,977 Speaker 1: God my feet, why I run this race? And then 241 00:17:33,057 --> 00:17:38,777 Speaker 1: everybody else would come in. I have never forgotten those moments. 242 00:17:40,057 --> 00:17:43,857 Speaker 1: That's why the church is all in the book. I mean, 243 00:17:43,897 --> 00:17:51,097 Speaker 1: I'm a radical feminist, pro LGBTQ Christian and I always 244 00:17:51,177 --> 00:17:55,177 Speaker 1: joke with people that's like jumbo shrimp, that's like hasy moron. 245 00:17:55,577 --> 00:17:59,537 Speaker 1: But I'm not trying to hit Christianity over the hit 246 00:17:59,617 --> 00:18:04,897 Speaker 1: with people. And there are West African gestures in the 247 00:18:04,937 --> 00:18:09,577 Speaker 1: book with two particular characters that nobody ever talks about, 248 00:18:09,657 --> 00:18:12,537 Speaker 1: but they're there. But it's because when I would hear 249 00:18:12,577 --> 00:18:17,937 Speaker 1: these songs, they really impressed something upon me. And then 250 00:18:17,937 --> 00:18:20,497 Speaker 1: when I read The Boys for the first time, I 251 00:18:20,537 --> 00:18:22,977 Speaker 1: think I was in junior high school and I read 252 00:18:23,017 --> 00:18:27,497 Speaker 1: the sorrow Songs and I thought, oh, okay, this is it, 253 00:18:27,977 --> 00:18:32,897 Speaker 1: this is what he's talking about, and it stayed with me. 254 00:18:32,977 --> 00:18:35,297 Speaker 1: But I do think people are like, this is odd. 255 00:18:35,617 --> 00:18:37,617 Speaker 1: You wrote a book all about black women and then 256 00:18:37,697 --> 00:18:40,337 Speaker 1: put the Boys, you know, in the time. I love 257 00:18:40,377 --> 00:18:43,777 Speaker 1: the juxtaposition of that because even with the sorrow Songs, 258 00:18:43,857 --> 00:18:46,817 Speaker 1: there is a line from that chapter where he says 259 00:18:47,297 --> 00:18:50,577 Speaker 1: they walked in darkness, sang songs in the olden days, 260 00:18:50,737 --> 00:18:53,977 Speaker 1: sorrow songs where they were weary at heart. But you 261 00:18:54,017 --> 00:18:57,217 Speaker 1: can continue that sentence to also say they had wonder 262 00:18:57,217 --> 00:19:00,617 Speaker 1: in their heart. You know, they really had wonder and 263 00:19:00,777 --> 00:19:06,777 Speaker 1: they had faith. Yes, they saw us here, they saw 264 00:19:07,937 --> 00:19:11,897 Speaker 1: us reading when it was again it's the law for 265 00:19:11,937 --> 00:19:16,897 Speaker 1: them to read. They saw all of this for us, Yes, 266 00:19:16,937 --> 00:19:21,057 Speaker 1: and to me that is a miracle. Yes. And then 267 00:19:21,097 --> 00:19:25,377 Speaker 1: when I think about people who are not descended black folks, 268 00:19:25,377 --> 00:19:28,577 Speaker 1: who are not descended from the trans atlantic slave trade, 269 00:19:28,697 --> 00:19:34,177 Speaker 1: who were here too, and here we are agather. Yes, finally, yes, 270 00:19:34,297 --> 00:19:38,817 Speaker 1: you know, we were separated for hundreds of years and 271 00:19:39,057 --> 00:19:43,737 Speaker 1: here we are back together. That's just powerful to me. 272 00:19:44,697 --> 00:19:48,217 Speaker 1: I mean, at this point, as a writer, you said it, 273 00:19:48,217 --> 00:19:51,737 Speaker 1: you've written five books, five beautiful poetry books. At that 274 00:19:51,897 --> 00:19:55,097 Speaker 1: the novel is your six book. I am just really 275 00:19:55,417 --> 00:19:58,097 Speaker 1: curious to hear what's going to surprise you? What are 276 00:19:58,097 --> 00:20:00,457 Speaker 1: you hoping for in the future when you look at 277 00:20:00,497 --> 00:20:03,777 Speaker 1: the page, What are you like wanting to put down 278 00:20:03,817 --> 00:20:06,217 Speaker 1: these days? Are you working on more poetry? Will there 279 00:20:06,337 --> 00:20:10,697 Speaker 1: be a second novel? What is in store? Well? I 280 00:20:10,737 --> 00:20:12,977 Speaker 1: hope there will be a second novel. I hope there 281 00:20:12,977 --> 00:20:15,857 Speaker 1: will be a third novel. I hope, you know. I mean, 282 00:20:16,017 --> 00:20:18,097 Speaker 1: I always say, if the Lord allows me to live, 283 00:20:18,377 --> 00:20:21,417 Speaker 1: I have my things that I want to do. But 284 00:20:21,537 --> 00:20:27,857 Speaker 1: for now, I'm working on essays. And that's what wakes 285 00:20:27,897 --> 00:20:30,457 Speaker 1: me up out of my sleep. When I really get 286 00:20:30,617 --> 00:20:34,577 Speaker 1: into something, it will wake me up. Words will wake 287 00:20:34,657 --> 00:20:39,777 Speaker 1: me up from my sleep. So I'm writing essays and 288 00:20:40,137 --> 00:20:44,257 Speaker 1: I'm writing short stories. So we'll return to Chickasta with 289 00:20:44,457 --> 00:20:48,617 Speaker 1: some of the minor characters, like mister Krudup, the funeral 290 00:20:48,657 --> 00:20:51,897 Speaker 1: home director. I have a story about him. I have 291 00:20:52,017 --> 00:20:56,577 Speaker 1: a story about Mima as a very old lady. Oh, 292 00:20:56,617 --> 00:20:59,257 Speaker 1: that's wonderful to hear us, because that was another question. 293 00:20:59,457 --> 00:21:02,777 Speaker 1: Will these characters have another life and other stories and 294 00:21:02,857 --> 00:21:07,337 Speaker 1: other plays or essays, and you just never know. I plan, 295 00:21:07,817 --> 00:21:11,137 Speaker 1: but then something just comes and sweep it out of 296 00:21:11,177 --> 00:21:16,337 Speaker 1: the way, so some will have different lives. I always 297 00:21:16,377 --> 00:21:19,777 Speaker 1: want to tell people. I won't tell them how Coco 298 00:21:19,937 --> 00:21:26,097 Speaker 1: will be returning, because people were like, what happened to Coca? 299 00:21:26,217 --> 00:21:28,817 Speaker 1: Why do you cock up? But what people What I 300 00:21:28,937 --> 00:21:33,777 Speaker 1: always say to people is if I may be allowed 301 00:21:33,777 --> 00:21:37,497 Speaker 1: a bit of arrogance, I'm a master poet, but I'm 302 00:21:37,657 --> 00:21:42,257 Speaker 1: not a master novelist. Okay, this is my first Okay, 303 00:21:42,377 --> 00:21:45,537 Speaker 1: you're sweet, I see you about to say yo are. 304 00:21:47,017 --> 00:21:49,577 Speaker 1: But I did my best. This is what I tell 305 00:21:49,577 --> 00:21:53,097 Speaker 1: people in the book. But I wasn't going to experiment 306 00:21:54,257 --> 00:22:01,617 Speaker 1: with writing an LGBTQ character, particularly because Coco, you know, 307 00:22:01,817 --> 00:22:05,177 Speaker 1: Aley and Lydia were all abused as children, and so 308 00:22:05,337 --> 00:22:10,217 Speaker 1: the last thing I wanted to do was put forth 309 00:22:10,217 --> 00:22:13,937 Speaker 1: a method sage that because Coco was abused, that's why 310 00:22:14,057 --> 00:22:17,257 Speaker 1: she was a lesbian. I was like, I'm not putting 311 00:22:17,257 --> 00:22:20,137 Speaker 1: that out there. And so much was focused on the 312 00:22:20,177 --> 00:22:25,417 Speaker 1: abuse in this book, and so when I write about 313 00:22:25,457 --> 00:22:29,457 Speaker 1: Coco another time, that's not going to be in the foregram. 314 00:22:29,537 --> 00:22:32,217 Speaker 1: So I was really scared. I was like, I didn't 315 00:22:32,257 --> 00:22:34,777 Speaker 1: know if I had the skills. And then by the 316 00:22:34,817 --> 00:22:38,577 Speaker 1: time I realized I had the skills, the book was 317 00:22:38,817 --> 00:22:42,817 Speaker 1: already in production. But yeah, Coco will be coming back. 318 00:22:43,217 --> 00:22:48,337 Speaker 1: Then I'm writing the biography of Lucil Clifton. I did 319 00:22:48,377 --> 00:22:51,377 Speaker 1: not know that, and my eye promised, my heart just 320 00:22:51,537 --> 00:22:57,697 Speaker 1: jumped because that is overdue. That needs to be the 321 00:22:57,857 --> 00:23:03,137 Speaker 1: book of essays about her that did some biographical work. 322 00:23:04,137 --> 00:23:09,017 Speaker 1: But I'm really interested in the granular details of her 323 00:23:09,057 --> 00:23:14,577 Speaker 1: life and her ancestor and placing her also in a 324 00:23:14,977 --> 00:23:19,297 Speaker 1: very firmly black context. Oh yeah, it's one hundred percent. 325 00:23:19,417 --> 00:23:21,297 Speaker 1: If you can share, how long have you been working 326 00:23:21,377 --> 00:23:24,817 Speaker 1: on this? And I just start? Okay, I wrote about 327 00:23:24,937 --> 00:23:29,297 Speaker 1: her and about her work. Did you also invent archival coda? 328 00:23:29,457 --> 00:23:33,977 Speaker 1: So this is how the archival coda got invented. Okay, 329 00:23:34,537 --> 00:23:37,417 Speaker 1: first of all, I'm an academic, I have tenure, I'm 330 00:23:37,457 --> 00:23:41,017 Speaker 1: full professor now, and I'm an in dale chair. Back then, 331 00:23:41,217 --> 00:23:44,217 Speaker 1: I was just you know, that was in twenty twenty. 332 00:23:45,057 --> 00:23:53,097 Speaker 1: You do not reference or site someone without documentation, right, 333 00:23:53,537 --> 00:23:59,657 Speaker 1: So I present the essay to the portrait foundation with 334 00:23:59,897 --> 00:24:03,737 Speaker 1: my bibliography. And he comes back and he's like, we 335 00:24:03,817 --> 00:24:06,897 Speaker 1: don't do that, and I said, well, I can't give 336 00:24:06,937 --> 00:24:12,537 Speaker 1: you this essay without documentation. I'm not trying to get 337 00:24:12,897 --> 00:24:20,617 Speaker 1: fired for plagiarism, because that is what constitutes plagiarism, is 338 00:24:20,697 --> 00:24:25,617 Speaker 1: to be using information that you do not sight right. Okay. 339 00:24:26,577 --> 00:24:30,217 Speaker 1: So I thought about it, and I thought, and sometimes 340 00:24:30,257 --> 00:24:33,297 Speaker 1: mis cincilla just come to me. It should just give 341 00:24:33,337 --> 00:24:37,617 Speaker 1: me little ideas, and I thought, well, how could I 342 00:24:37,657 --> 00:24:42,497 Speaker 1: make this pretty? So then I had like a little 343 00:24:42,737 --> 00:24:47,697 Speaker 1: mini essay, okay, called an archival coda, and I said, 344 00:24:47,857 --> 00:24:52,017 Speaker 1: in the Da da da da issue of this particular 345 00:24:52,137 --> 00:24:56,177 Speaker 1: journal such and such, So it basically a bibliographic essay, 346 00:24:56,497 --> 00:24:59,617 Speaker 1: but it's just written nicer. I knew that there were 347 00:24:59,617 --> 00:25:01,937 Speaker 1: going to be some books that I wanted people to know. 348 00:25:03,137 --> 00:25:05,497 Speaker 1: In the back of Love Songs, I could not have 349 00:25:05,497 --> 00:25:10,017 Speaker 1: written love songs without the color purple. I could not 350 00:25:10,217 --> 00:25:14,457 Speaker 1: have I kick myself that I forgot to include the 351 00:25:14,457 --> 00:25:18,457 Speaker 1: bluest i in the archival coda. I could not have 352 00:25:18,537 --> 00:25:21,497 Speaker 1: written love songs without the bluest I could not have 353 00:25:21,577 --> 00:25:27,897 Speaker 1: written leve songs without beloved. But Professor Morrison couldn't have 354 00:25:27,977 --> 00:25:31,137 Speaker 1: written Beloved without Incidents in the Life of a Slave 355 00:25:31,217 --> 00:25:39,217 Speaker 1: Girl Bred Douglas. But that archival coda is condensed. I 356 00:25:39,417 --> 00:25:46,337 Speaker 1: read about thirty to thirty five books while writing love songs. 357 00:25:46,737 --> 00:25:51,217 Speaker 1: But keep in mind that many of those books I 358 00:25:51,297 --> 00:25:53,937 Speaker 1: had read for the Age of Phyllis. So if people 359 00:25:54,257 --> 00:25:59,977 Speaker 1: really want a very extensive bibliography, they only have to 360 00:25:59,977 --> 00:26:03,577 Speaker 1: look at the back of the Age of Phyllis, and 361 00:26:03,697 --> 00:26:08,097 Speaker 1: I have a selective bibliography there. Oh well, I am 362 00:26:08,177 --> 00:26:12,577 Speaker 1: going to adopt the archival coda clearly, site you, because 363 00:26:12,617 --> 00:26:15,217 Speaker 1: that it's part of my practice too. I feel so 364 00:26:15,377 --> 00:26:17,097 Speaker 1: I feel like a kinship with so many of the 365 00:26:17,137 --> 00:26:21,337 Speaker 1: stories that have influenced my childhood and hearing it from 366 00:26:21,377 --> 00:26:24,417 Speaker 1: your lips as a tenured professor, as an now chair, 367 00:26:24,537 --> 00:26:27,497 Speaker 1: as an amazing academic. For me, sometimes it feels like 368 00:26:27,577 --> 00:26:30,217 Speaker 1: I'm placing it on my bookshelf and I'm looking in 369 00:26:30,257 --> 00:26:34,097 Speaker 1: a way that is tied to memories. But adding it 370 00:26:34,137 --> 00:26:36,937 Speaker 1: to the academy, you know what I mean? That that's important, 371 00:26:37,297 --> 00:26:44,817 Speaker 1: some really great what we call canonical gestures in academia 372 00:26:44,857 --> 00:26:53,697 Speaker 1: with on Girlhood. Oh, thank you, thank you so much. 373 00:26:54,577 --> 00:26:57,377 Speaker 1: It was it was my that that project for me 374 00:26:57,497 --> 00:27:00,417 Speaker 1: was such a love song because those stories were things 375 00:27:00,457 --> 00:27:03,297 Speaker 1: that I mean that I still read continuously, Like every 376 00:27:03,337 --> 00:27:06,937 Speaker 1: short story in that collection is son know what's funny? 377 00:27:07,457 --> 00:27:11,577 Speaker 1: So I'm all about supporting black writers. So I bought 378 00:27:11,617 --> 00:27:14,537 Speaker 1: the book. Oh thank you, thank you. So I got 379 00:27:14,537 --> 00:27:17,697 Speaker 1: a free copy in the mail of I have two. 380 00:27:18,057 --> 00:27:21,857 Speaker 1: I have two copies, and I'm like, should I keep 381 00:27:21,977 --> 00:27:25,417 Speaker 1: both and hat and eat cheeking over one, you know, 382 00:27:25,497 --> 00:27:28,257 Speaker 1: because I have like or should I give this as 383 00:27:28,257 --> 00:27:30,017 Speaker 1: a gift? So I think I'm gonna give it as 384 00:27:30,017 --> 00:27:32,457 Speaker 1: a gift. Oh thank you. That is the sisterhood. Pass 385 00:27:32,497 --> 00:27:38,737 Speaker 1: it along. I'm monaey for none. Jeffers and you were 386 00:27:38,817 --> 00:27:49,217 Speaker 1: listening to whale Red Black Girl. It's time for rapid 387 00:27:49,337 --> 00:27:56,057 Speaker 1: by your moment. So this is gonna be really fast, Like, okay, 388 00:27:56,457 --> 00:27:59,257 Speaker 1: just what's first into your mind? So the first one 389 00:27:59,457 --> 00:28:02,897 Speaker 1: is what is your life's theme song? Glory Gainer? I 390 00:28:02,897 --> 00:28:06,817 Speaker 1: will survive? Yes, yes, Glory Gain. I guess name a 391 00:28:06,897 --> 00:28:11,017 Speaker 1: book on your night sand Eric Foner's Reconstruction. Favorite place 392 00:28:11,097 --> 00:28:15,617 Speaker 1: you have traveled, Synegal, title of the first poem you 393 00:28:15,697 --> 00:28:19,297 Speaker 1: ever wrote. If you can remember, I have never loved 394 00:28:19,377 --> 00:28:27,457 Speaker 1: another as I have you so bad? Favorite book by W. E. V. 395 00:28:27,657 --> 00:28:32,097 Speaker 1: Two Boys and Why the Souls of Black Folk. He's 396 00:28:32,137 --> 00:28:40,257 Speaker 1: so passionate in that book. He's so passionate. Thank you, 397 00:28:40,737 --> 00:28:46,697 Speaker 1: Thank y'all. I appreciate you all. What a privilege to 398 00:28:46,737 --> 00:28:50,577 Speaker 1: speak with Honore. I loved hearing about the agency she 399 00:28:50,657 --> 00:28:53,777 Speaker 1: seemed to have over herself from a very young age, 400 00:28:54,057 --> 00:28:56,977 Speaker 1: and how she always stood up for her beliefs as 401 00:28:57,017 --> 00:29:00,257 Speaker 1: an author and as a Black woman. She displays an 402 00:29:00,257 --> 00:29:04,617 Speaker 1: inner fortitude that we can all admire and borrow from 403 00:29:04,657 --> 00:29:07,697 Speaker 1: hearing Honor a talk about using sorrow songs to frame 404 00:29:07,697 --> 00:29:10,217 Speaker 1: her novel. Mini wants to share a part of a 405 00:29:10,297 --> 00:29:13,937 Speaker 1: Lucy Clifton poem that always speaks to me. It sits 406 00:29:13,937 --> 00:29:17,577 Speaker 1: in conversation with Honore's work, and it's also called sorrow 407 00:29:17,657 --> 00:29:23,577 Speaker 1: Song for the eyes of the children of Middle passage 408 00:29:23,857 --> 00:29:29,977 Speaker 1: for Cherokee eyes, Ethiopian eyes, Russian eyes, American eyes, for 409 00:29:30,137 --> 00:29:34,937 Speaker 1: all that remains of the children, their eyes staring at us, 410 00:29:35,257 --> 00:29:40,777 Speaker 1: amazed to see the extraordinary evil and ordinary men. After 411 00:29:40,817 --> 00:29:43,697 Speaker 1: the break, will be joined by Romanda Lark Young from 412 00:29:43,697 --> 00:29:47,177 Speaker 1: Ahogany Books in Washington, DC to talk about how she 413 00:29:47,297 --> 00:30:06,257 Speaker 1: created a space to make black books accessible. This week, 414 00:30:06,377 --> 00:30:09,457 Speaker 1: Romanda lark Young, owner of Ahogany Books in Washington, d C. 415 00:30:09,897 --> 00:30:12,857 Speaker 1: Gives us a little insight into the bookshops origin and 416 00:30:13,017 --> 00:30:18,177 Speaker 1: what books you need to have in your home. So 417 00:30:18,337 --> 00:30:22,977 Speaker 1: my Hockey Books opened almost fifteen years ago today, in 418 00:30:23,017 --> 00:30:26,097 Speaker 1: the middle of then what was a recession. But my 419 00:30:26,137 --> 00:30:28,817 Speaker 1: husband and I were looking for business ideas, something that 420 00:30:28,817 --> 00:30:32,257 Speaker 1: we really could feel committed to and connected to. We 421 00:30:32,337 --> 00:30:35,297 Speaker 1: landed at bookstore for a lot of reasons. One for me, 422 00:30:36,137 --> 00:30:42,057 Speaker 1: we want to make black books accessible to people in Oklahoma, California, Idaho, Iowa, wherever, 423 00:30:42,577 --> 00:30:45,337 Speaker 1: because we knew how transformative they were in our lives. 424 00:30:45,457 --> 00:30:48,057 Speaker 1: So it's been exciting, it's been scary, it's been off 425 00:30:48,057 --> 00:30:51,697 Speaker 1: the chain, but rewarding. You know, people asking us about 426 00:30:51,737 --> 00:30:56,057 Speaker 1: our favorite books often, and there are so many, one 427 00:30:56,137 --> 00:30:59,297 Speaker 1: as The Afro Minimalist Guide to Living with Less by 428 00:30:59,417 --> 00:31:02,897 Speaker 1: Christine Platte of course the sixteen nineteen Project. I feel 429 00:31:02,897 --> 00:31:06,377 Speaker 1: like that should be in everybody's home. Listen to more 430 00:31:06,377 --> 00:31:10,457 Speaker 1: of this conversation on the Latest Bookmarks, exclusively on pushkin Plus, 431 00:31:10,737 --> 00:31:13,777 Speaker 1: and be sure to check out Honore's debut novel, The 432 00:31:13,897 --> 00:31:16,737 Speaker 1: Love Songs of W. E. B. D. Boys if you 433 00:31:16,777 --> 00:31:21,177 Speaker 1: haven't already. In our next episode, we'll be joined by 434 00:31:21,217 --> 00:31:24,657 Speaker 1: tr Jones to talk about her latest novel in American 435 00:31:24,777 --> 00:31:34,017 Speaker 1: Marriage Well Read. Black Girl is a production of Pushkin Industries. 436 00:31:34,377 --> 00:31:37,817 Speaker 1: It is written and hosted by me Glory Dam and 437 00:31:37,977 --> 00:31:43,177 Speaker 1: produced by Scher Vincent and Brittany Brown. Our associate editor 438 00:31:43,337 --> 00:31:47,457 Speaker 1: is Keishall Williams. Our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and 439 00:31:47,537 --> 00:31:53,017 Speaker 1: our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Our executive producers are Mia 440 00:31:53,177 --> 00:31:57,977 Speaker 1: Lobell and Lee taal Molad. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane, 441 00:31:58,217 --> 00:32:05,377 Speaker 1: Carl Migliori, Jason Gambrau, Julia Barton, Jen Goerra, John Schnars, 442 00:32:06,017 --> 00:32:09,457 Speaker 1: and Jacob Wiseberg. You can bind me on Twitter and 443 00:32:09,537 --> 00:32:12,817 Speaker 1: Instagram at Red black Girl. You can find Pushkin and 444 00:32:12,937 --> 00:32:16,337 Speaker 1: all social media platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can 445 00:32:16,377 --> 00:32:20,017 Speaker 1: sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot Fm. If 446 00:32:20,017 --> 00:32:22,577 Speaker 1: you have a question, a recommendation, or you just want 447 00:32:22,577 --> 00:32:28,417 Speaker 1: to say hi, email us at WRBG at pushkin dot Fm. 448 00:32:28,457 --> 00:32:31,417 Speaker 1: If you love this show and others from Pushkin Industry, 449 00:32:31,737 --> 00:32:35,937 Speaker 1: consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast 450 00:32:35,977 --> 00:32:40,217 Speaker 1: subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted listening for four 451 00:32:40,377 --> 00:32:43,817 Speaker 1: ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple 452 00:32:43,857 --> 00:32:48,057 Speaker 1: podcast subscriptions, and if you're already a subscriber, make sure 453 00:32:48,097 --> 00:32:51,537 Speaker 1: to check out my exclusive Bookmark series. You'll hear extended 454 00:32:51,617 --> 00:32:56,017 Speaker 1: interviews with book club members, bookstore owners, and more. And 455 00:32:56,337 --> 00:32:58,457 Speaker 1: do you get to hear what's on my mind, What's 456 00:32:58,497 --> 00:33:01,897 Speaker 1: on my radar, and of course, what's on my reading 457 00:33:01,937 --> 00:33:07,537 Speaker 1: list each week. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on iHeartRadio, app, 458 00:33:07,817 --> 00:33:10,577 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen