1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the best of Coast to Coast podcast. 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: If you want to hear more than just this highlight 3 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: from the program, become a Coast Insider and you can 4 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: listen to the full episode, plus recent shows covering the 5 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: mysterious death of Kurt Kobain. The possibility that government may 6 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: soon reveal the truth about UFOs and the power of 7 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: witchcraft is told by an actual practicing which start listening 8 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: now by heading over to Coast to Coast a m 9 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: dot com at signing up for Coast in Cider. Now, 10 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM. On iHeart Radio, 11 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: George Nor back with you along with Paul David's we 12 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: talked about his work blowing America's mind. So you were 13 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: taking the LSD, but they were kind of putting it 14 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:40,919 Speaker 1: in water and drinks. You didn't even know you were 15 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: taking it. Yeah, And sometimes they wanted to give up placebo, 16 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: so you you know, you wouldn't know for sure which 17 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: times they were actually giving you a psychedelic drug. And 18 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: the subjects participated for many, many months in the program. 19 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: For John Selby was more than a year before he 20 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 1: started to have a breakdown, and he actually fled and 21 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: fled Princeton at the tail end of this, and because 22 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: of the yells D, you think, well, it was he 23 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: doesn't blame the yellows D blames the institute. And it's 24 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: the various purposes and and some of the dark experiences 25 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: that they were deliberately putting the subjects into to see 26 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: if they could induce uh, psychotic and schizophrenic states by 27 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: taking away your depth perception, by changing your perception of time, uh, 28 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: slowing time down, speeding time up, changing your sense of size, 29 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: so you might have the impression that you were very, 30 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: very small and everybody overpowered you. Uh. And they wanted 31 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: to see how you reacted to these as opposed to 32 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: things that, for example, a condition that increases your depth perception, 33 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: which is one of the qualities of a mind expansion 34 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: ex ariants that you might get under LSD. So you know, 35 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: we were under a microscope. We were being used for 36 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: all of this stuff. Willingly, I want to say, because 37 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: I really want to get into what the CIA's larger 38 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: purposes and goals were. In m K alter one one project, 39 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: they financed a hundred and forty nine projects different projects, yes, 40 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: in mind control, and they used eighty six different American institutions, 41 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: including the universities you know, like Princeton and research centers, 42 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: but also prison prisons. And they used people that were 43 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: in the military, and then they used people that were 44 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: at hospitals. This was six money, Paul. But how much 45 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: do you think they spent on all these Well, you know, 46 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: I think they they admitted to somewhere around thirty million dollars, 47 00:02:53,440 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: so millions of dollars in today. And um, you know, 48 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: they put Sydney Gottlieb in charge of the whole thing. 49 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: That's quite a story. But um, with a hundred and 50 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: forty nine projects out there. Obviously, while Osman may have 51 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: been interested in the difference between consciousness expansion and schizophrenia, 52 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: the CIA was really interested in manipulation of memory, memory erasure. 53 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: One of their goals was trying to find drugs or 54 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: hyptosis techniques where that they could take retiring CIA agents 55 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: and put them through a program in which their memory 56 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: of classified information would be absolutely eradicated, to erase it. Yes, 57 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: so memory erasure was also part of what they were 58 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: doing with our hypnotic subjects. But they had so many 59 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: goals that was part of it. Uh, They were interested 60 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: in using these techniques and drugs in order to discredit people. 61 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: Was this under Richard Helms? Yes, Richard Helms was head 62 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: of the CIA at that time and he appointed Sydney Gottlieb, 63 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: who he was. Gottlieb was very respected in the CIA. 64 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: He was honored intelligence awards and but the writing about 65 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: mk Ultra that has followed all of these revelations establishes 66 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: very clearly that things they were doing absolutely violated the 67 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: Geneva Convention. They were illegal, they were Um, let's see 68 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: what were the what were the things that came down 69 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: after the Nuremberg trials and the what the Nazis were 70 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: doing with their experiments and that they were yes, yes, yes, 71 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: So it's in the larger sense it had a hint 72 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: of all of that behind it, especially because so many 73 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: of these experiments were done on completely unsuspecting Americans. They 74 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: had no idea they were either being given these drugs 75 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: or that any of these things were being done to them. 76 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: They had Operation Midnight Climax. They would set up brattles 77 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: in in Las Vegas, and they had safe houses in 78 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: uh San Francisco, and people who went to these places, 79 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: the prostitutes would give them LSD and they would suddenly 80 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: become guinea pigs. In Yes, yes, the CIA had prostitutes 81 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: on its payroll that were serving them. So they sometimes 82 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: sprayed these drugs in public places, in beaches, parks, inside 83 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: subways to see would they get mass panic. They were 84 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: interested during the Cold War as to what would happen 85 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:01,679 Speaker 1: if an enemy army was objected and mass to something 86 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: like LSD. Would they all lay down their weapons, you know, 87 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: and go home? So it was Cold War, they felt. 88 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: Richard Helms and Sydney Gottlieb felt this was completely justified, 89 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 1: but it was illegal. Illegal even under their own charter, 90 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: the CIA is supposed to deal with foreign intelligence, not 91 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: to experiment on Americans in hospitals and at universities and 92 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: in prisons or unknowingly wherever they may be. Was it 93 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: all drugs that they were using? Here? They had a 94 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: list of well over a hundred drugs that they were testing. Wow, 95 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: And I think there's a book called Operation Mind Control 96 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: that lists all those drugs. I think that's where I 97 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: saw the list. How many how many of those drugs today, 98 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: Paul are still around? I can't answer that, George, I 99 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: don't really know. But I but I, but I do 100 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: know that with the psychedelics there's a whole different kind 101 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: of interest in them today since some of them, uh 102 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: seemed to have value, particularly for what do they call it? 103 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: Post traumatic stress disorder? Yeah, and so they are looking 104 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: at psilocybin that way. Recent research on LSD seems to 105 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: show it makes connections between neurons that are normally not 106 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: connected in the brain that can be long lasting and 107 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: beneficial in some cases. Let me let me just step 108 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: back and mention ken KSI was also one of the M. 109 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: Kalter subjects a little bit before me. He's the famous 110 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: great author who wrote One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. 111 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: We all know that movie. I mean it one like 112 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: five Academy Awards, Jack Nicholson. But he wrote that after 113 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: the fact. Yes, but he was part of M. K. 114 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: Ultra and the l s D experiments. Let's say, how 115 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: do we know that these experiments didn't enhance people's creativity 116 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: like yourself? Because I'm not sure if you were an 117 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: artist before that, but you sure are now. It's suspicious. 118 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: You ask a really really good question because you know 119 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: these drugs have been so demonized. But I want to 120 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: tell you my own case. Um, you asked, you know, 121 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: what did I think of Humphrey Osman? You know, did 122 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: I like him? When I was in college, I wanted 123 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: to be Humphrey Osman, you know, the the opportunity to 124 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: work with him, this I thought this was great and 125 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: he he was the researcher for people. Just I wanted 126 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 1: to uh go into psychedelic research. I wanted to be 127 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: a psychiatrist. When I was at Princeton, I was premed. 128 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: I fulfilled all the premed requirements. I even took the 129 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: medical boards. But the dark side of the experiments that 130 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: I was part of at the Nerro Psychiatric Institute, Um, 131 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: you know, I changed my mind about that. I got 132 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: to a point where I had enough, just like John 133 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: Selby had enough. I felt manipulated. Were you scared at 134 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 1: a certain point? Yeah, I mean John Selby really did 135 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: have a breakdown, and the CIA really did make direct 136 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: contact with him and threaten him because he was going 137 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: public with some of this information at that time. Was 138 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: anybody listening at that time, I mean wire tapping. No. 139 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: In terms of you know, did he have an audience 140 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: for people? The New York Times, he said, did an 141 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: article there was something on CBS because he was doing 142 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: research on Princeton students that were using LSD and worked 143 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 1: on a a pamphlet about psychedelics that had the auspices 144 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: of the Princeton Mental Health Committee behind it, and he 145 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: had many meetings with the president of Princeton at that time, 146 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: Robert F. Goheen. This is in our book, his encounters 147 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: with Robert Goheen, who laid or became Nixon's ambassador to India. 148 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: Wasn't there a CIA agent that was on LSD in 149 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: one of these tests and he jumped out of a 150 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: window or something. Frank Olsen and the family absolutely maintains 151 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 1: he did not jump, that they killed him, that they 152 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: pushed him. He was a biochemist um and UH, and 153 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: he invented some things that were he discovered the CIA 154 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: was using this to kill people in Europe, and the 155 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: family maintains that's why they they got him. There was 156 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,719 Speaker 1: a settlement with the family at one point, but they 157 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: always said it was a suicide. They admitted he'd been 158 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: given LSD. They said he jumped out a window, and 159 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: the family never bought that, and they had him. They 160 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: had his body exhumed and they found evidence of a 161 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: blow to the head that wasn't connected with his fall 162 00:10:55,080 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: from the window. So that's a really you know, messy 163 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: this And did they do Intellivision series. I think Wormwood 164 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: is based on that particular Frank Olsen case, So George. 165 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: Bottom line, dark dark things were being done by the 166 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: CIA to a lot of people. But the drugs LSD 167 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: can have some very very positive and I would I 168 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: would agree mind expanding and positive influence and creativity in 169 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: my own case. In my own case, at one point, 170 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: I uh just decided abruptly I was not going to 171 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 1: go to medical school, but that I was going to 172 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: go to Hollywood and work in the movies. When did 173 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: you just how did you decide that? I decided it 174 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: the night I saw the premiere of Yellow Submarine in London. 175 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: Not really a great movie, Paul, I. I loved Yellow Submarine, 176 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: the music, the Beatles. But see, I had always been 177 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: interested in animation from the time I as a kid, 178 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: and I had always done these little animated films and 179 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: some of them were recognized and I was published in 180 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: Famous Monsters of Filmland magazine when I was thirteen years old. 181 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: You know, I was a contest winner there. I always 182 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: wanted to do movies. Everybody around me said that that 183 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: was crazy. You know, my father is a college professor, 184 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 1: my mother is a teacher. Growing up near Washington, d C. 185 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: Everyone who's anybody becomes a lawyer, a doctor, a college professor, 186 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: a dentist or something like. Yeah, yeah, they don't. They 187 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 1: don't abandon their premed education. And when they've done well 188 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: already on the med boards and say, you know, the 189 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: hell of it, I'm dropping it all. I'm going to Hollywood. 190 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: It was a really sort of strange, gutsy, risky thing 191 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: that I decided to do. And and you know, my 192 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: mother called up relatives and she said, you know, he's 193 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: throwing his life away. Listen to more Coast to Coast 194 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: AM every weeknight at one a m. Eastern, and go 195 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: to Coast to Coast am dot com for more