1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy Vie Wilson. Today we 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: have an interview for you. I recently chatted with Andrew 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 1: Liptoc about his upcoming book, Cosplay a History. This book 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: may surprise you because while that term cosplay is relatively 7 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: new in the vernacular, Andrew's book actually covers a lot 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: of human history. Then that history coverage is not too surprising. 9 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: Andrew got his degree in military history. This conversation will 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: touch on sixteenth century Mummers and Jules Burn and the 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: earliest instances of costuming at fan conventions. Here are some 12 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: names that will sound familiar if you're a regular listener 13 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: to the show. Yeah, head's up, listen for that. Hugo 14 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: gernsback talk. So here is our chat. So Andrew, first off, 15 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: I know that you costume, but lots of people costume 16 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 1: and they don't read a book about its history. So 17 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: what made you want to write this book? Um, writing 18 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 1: is the only thing I'm really good at, and I've 19 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: been a journalist for more, you know, more than ten 20 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: years at this point, and it just seemed like a 21 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: good way to put the whole story together rather than 22 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: like a series of blog posts or newsletter issues or 23 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: a feature article somewhere. Um, there's a lot to the 24 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: story of cosplay and it it goes you know, back 25 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: hundreds of years. Um, there's a lot to say about 26 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: the modern iterations of it where there's um, you know, 27 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: in two twenty two everything that everything goes into the 28 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: cosplay world, whether it's three D printing, or racial dynamics 29 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: or entertainment, the mechanics of the entertainment industry. Um, all 30 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: that makes sense to just at least make sense to 31 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: me to put it together into one package that's a book, 32 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: because understanding the entire context of what cosplay is helps 33 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: give you a better picture of how we come to 34 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: it today. And you know, it's I've always want to 35 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: write a book because I have lots of books. I 36 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: would very much like people to have a book that 37 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: has my name on it. There you go, I think 38 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: that's fair. It is interesting. I'm glad you kind of 39 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: set it up like that because I think for most 40 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: of us that go to fan conventions or even just 41 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: are you know, aware of pop culture. Every generation seems 42 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: to think that they're the ones that are costuming and 43 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: people weren't really doing it that much before, But we 44 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: know that's not true, as our discussion will reveal. UM. 45 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: I do want a level set though, because I imagine 46 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: any of our listeners, who, as I just said, have 47 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: gone to conventions or no pop culture, know what costplay 48 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: is kind of intuitively, but I also know because I 49 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: remember when it came to the forefront as a replacement 50 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: for costuming in fan groups. Um, it's a term that 51 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily have and agreed on definition, So I want 52 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: to know, how do you define cosplay? The word itself 53 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: is a mashup of the word costume play, and it 54 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: was coined in the nineties by a Japanese writer who 55 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: wanted to try to find the right term for it 56 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: and couldn't really like costuming didn't quite have the right effects. 57 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: Older fans from science fiction fandom called it like, you know, 58 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: the like a costume, masquerade or costume in their costumers, 59 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: so cosplay seemed to be the right captured the right 60 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: tone for it. So you're you're costuming and it's playing. 61 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: It's it holds up today because it's it's still in use. 62 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: Um my definition is has basically been sort of an 63 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: active fandom. Anytime somebody is dressing up as a character 64 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: out of that love of fandom, out of that sense 65 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: of wanting to become a character, They're dressing up to 66 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: relate to a story somehow. And when you think cosplay, 67 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: you think superheroes or Star Wars or anime. Um M. 68 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: I wanted to make sure that my definition was really broad, because, um, 69 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: you know, a story is not always fictional, it could 70 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: be nonfictional. So in the book, I include things like, 71 00:03:58,040 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: it's not quite cosplay, but it's sort of under this 72 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: big brown umbrella of other activities where somebody is relating 73 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: to a story. So I include some things about reenacting 74 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: and protesters. I think it's basically see it anytime you're 75 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: you're you're dressing up to relate to a story somehow, 76 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: whether that that is to you know, dress up as 77 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: somebody who is basically doing charitable work at a hospital 78 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: or just going to a convention, and basically things like that. 79 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: There is an instance of historical cosplay that you talked 80 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: about in this book that charmed me so utterly, and 81 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: I had not ever read about it before even though 82 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: it involves a person that I really really like, uh, 83 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: and that is Jules Verne, and he apparently through quite 84 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: a party in eighteen seventy seven, and you relay that story, 85 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: will you tell us a little bit about it? Yeah? 86 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: So Jules Verne, if if you don't know, he's the 87 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: science fiction author who wrote twenty thousand leagus under the 88 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: Sea from the Earth of the Moon. And he was 89 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: a he was a really big author. He was known 90 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: all over the world for his stories. It seems like 91 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: he had a bit of a that was a troubled 92 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: personal life, but like you know, his family had its 93 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: ups and downs, and his son was getting into some 94 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: trouble and was about to be shipped off to basically 95 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: a penal penal colony or or like a really strict 96 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: school of some sort, and he basically wanted to take 97 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: his family's mind off of the trouble. So they basically 98 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: commissioned you basically throw a big party. Is you know 99 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: you're about to ship your your ship, your delinquents sent 100 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: off to school, why wouldn't you throw a throw a 101 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: costume party? And what I when I found most interesting 102 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: about this is that when like they sent out invitations 103 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: it was apparently very expensive, and they put a lot 104 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: of they put a lot of effort into this. People's 105 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: showed up to this party dressed as his characters. Um, 106 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: I don't remember off the top of my head if 107 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: records survived about which what costumes they were, but he 108 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: certainly had a really big impact on deliterary world at 109 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: the time. So I can't imagine that like, you know, 110 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: people were dressing up, you know, with with some of 111 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: those you know, influences now that they might not have had, 112 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: you know, the direct visual references that they have that 113 00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: we have today, where you know, you can freeze frame 114 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: a movie and you know, get a character from very angle. 115 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: But you know, there's certainly a lot of examples of 116 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: where people were sort of you know, dressing up to 117 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: be inspired, you know, as inspired by this. And you know, 118 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: when you're you know, a kid and you're dressing up 119 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: for your own costing party, you're doing the same thing. 120 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: You're you're trying to, you know, approximate what you imagine 121 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: those characters might look like. And um, I really wish 122 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: you you know, knew what he might have thought of that. 123 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: I imagine that it's pretty you know, like any author 124 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: or any TV personality or film actor. You know, we'd 125 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: be cut, you know, utterly charmed by the idea of 126 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: seeing your characters come to life. And this isn't the 127 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: only instance that that one thing that didn't make it 128 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: into the book because I learned about it, um like 129 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: right after I finished edits is Arthur Cornan Doyle also 130 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: did this. Um he didn't he didn't throw a party, 131 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: but he would dress up. Um. He's he's obviously the 132 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,559 Speaker 1: author known for creating Shark Holmes, but his favorite character 133 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: wasn't Sharlock Holmes. It was a guy named a Professor Challenger, 134 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: who is featured in a you know, a book called 135 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: Lost World where some explorers go off and discovered this 136 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: isolated plateau in South America where they're they've discovered dinosaurs 137 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: in this in this Lost World. And apparently he dressed 138 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: up as his own character every now and then. And 139 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: I found that to be a really really fun little anecdote. 140 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: And so and there's even there's instances further back. I 141 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: was just at Star Wars celebration and I was talking 142 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: with somebody in line and they mentioned it. Oh, I 143 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: studied our history and there was this Roman emperor who 144 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: who dressed up as Hercules, or at least there there 145 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: are busts of statues of him dressed up as Hercules. 146 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: I think I think that the notion of us dressing 147 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: up as characters to sort of relate to the story 148 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: is something that has lived with us for a very, 149 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: very long time, and it just shows to go about 150 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: just how much of storytelling creatures we are. We just 151 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: we just really like to sort of immerse ourselves in 152 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: the world. In some cases it's just by imagining it, 153 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: but in other cases, um, it's by you know, trying 154 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: to figure out what outfit this character might of warn 155 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: and you know how the might have acted or looked. 156 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: And I'm glad you mentioned that, because I really am 157 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: fascinated by this. The more I I look through your 158 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: book and read all of these stories, I kept being 159 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: struck by the fact that I have theoretically always known, 160 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: but when you're seeing it all grouped together, it really 161 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: drives the point home that there have always been people 162 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: doing this throughout history. You go way back through history, 163 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: including things like mummers and pagan folk traditions back to 164 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: the sixteenth century. So this is something that as a species, 165 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: humans have always loved to do. And I'm curious. I 166 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: think you're you kind of intimated it just now talking 167 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: about how we we are always trying to tell stories. 168 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: But why do you think we so instinctively turned to 169 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: costumes for everything from warding off evil to just partying 170 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: as superheroes and all points in between. Like a costume 171 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: is a quick cultural go to almost around the globe 172 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: as a way to do this, which I find fascinating. Yeah, So, 173 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: as I said, I think we're storytelling creatures. It's it's 174 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: our most important technology I think as a species, if 175 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,239 Speaker 1: we if we really want to get really philosophical about it, 176 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: it's it's the way that we can convey information to 177 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: one another. It's it's a way that we share our 178 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: values and our adventures and thrills and excitements, and our 179 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: imagination is really really great. If you describe something, you 180 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: can have a picture of it in your head. What 181 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 1: things like books and now movies or comic books they do, 182 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: they allow they allow us to sort of make those 183 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: thoughts concrete, which is really this really in my mind, 184 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: a really magical way to look at this because it 185 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: lets us transfer what was once thought into a sort 186 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: of telepathy that we share from personal person, why we 187 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: put costumes on and why we pick up props. I 188 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: think is just a way to sort of extend that 189 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: and just to make those thoughts a little bit more 190 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: manifest and to just to bring them those thoughts a 191 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: little bit more to life for the benefit of somebody 192 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: who's on the on the sidelines, whether that is somebody 193 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: in a captive audience on a stage or sitting in 194 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 1: a movie theater or convention. You know, you see these 195 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: characters come to life and you can believe for a 196 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: second that you know, these stories, these thoughts, these ideas, 197 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: these lessons now come together into into the real world. 198 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: And that's that's I think one of the real powers 199 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: of causplay is that it lets you bring these characters 200 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: to life and you know, the we really love you know, 201 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: these are these are really phenomenal stories. Like you know, 202 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: I'm a that if once people read the book, you'll 203 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: see you I'm a big Star Wars fan. Um, this 204 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: is a really you know, her story of heroics. It's 205 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: this It's a story of how people really triumph over 206 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: evil and they make decisions that help them save the world. 207 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: And I think that you know, we're always striving to 208 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: sort of see those things in the world, and it 209 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: made manifest and costumes just help us make that a 210 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: little bit better. I don't know about you or or 211 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: any listeners, but like when I see Darth Vader, I 212 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: get a chill that goes down my spine because you know, 213 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: it's it's a real visceral thing. I'm around story trips 214 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: a lot more, and and they they're terrible shots, so 215 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: I'm not quite as worried about them. But you know, 216 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: when when you see when you see other characters that 217 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: that you know, really elicit that that sense of fear, 218 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: that real gut instinct of emotion, and you know you 219 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: see them in front of you, it's it's a really 220 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: powerful thing. Um. And I've heard actors talk about this, like, um, 221 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: somebody was talking about, you know, coming up against Darth 222 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: Dater and that just being really like, oh my god, 223 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: it's real because you know, it's it's a really imposing 224 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: costume and it's a really imposing character. And the same 225 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: thing is like when you see a character that's really heroic. 226 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: If I see a you know, a little girl seeing 227 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: a so Kotano for the first time, or Princess Leiah, 228 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: and it's like their favorite character ever. You know, that's 229 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: got to be a really powerful thing for them because they, 230 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: you know, all that character represents is now made manifest 231 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: and it's no longer an intangible thing. It's a it's 232 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: a tangible thing in the real world. And if if 233 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: the character is real in the world, everything that they 234 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: represent must be too. And so I think that's that's why, 235 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: you know, causeplace can be such a powerful thing. That's 236 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: a beautiful way to look at it. I had not 237 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: really thought about it in those terms. Um, I do 238 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: want to talk about some more specific historical things because 239 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: I kept finding just gems in the text that jumped 240 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: out at me. One of them was your mention of 241 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: political protest costumers from the eighteen hundreds who were known 242 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 1: as the Fantasticals. Will you tell us a little bit 243 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,719 Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, this is a really fun thing that 244 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: I came across, and it was one of those things 245 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: that was just like a really crazy, random happenstance just 246 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: going through archives. I think I was going through the 247 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: Library congress Is Archives online and just trying to like 248 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: just typing in costume and just see what popped up. 249 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: So the fantasticals were This needs a little bit of 250 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: set up just to to fully understand the context. There 251 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: was hundreds, There was the US was still a fairly 252 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: young nation. There was a lot of the consternation about 253 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: the state of the nation's malicious system and you know, 254 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: people would be conscripted into helping out, and there was 255 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: a lot of corruption and just general disillusionment with the 256 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: organizations that were set up to you know, presumably protect 257 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: the country or protect the region or whatever. What people 258 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: started doing was dressed and this was largely a phenomenon 259 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: confined to like the Philadelphia area and the New York 260 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: City area, UM, and it expanded a little bit out 261 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: from there. But what really it was sort of in 262 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,839 Speaker 1: that corner of the country, and what people started doing 263 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: was just dressing up as these ridiculous looking soldiers, UM. 264 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: And it was really just there's sort of a form 265 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: of protest um. It was. It was an idea that like, 266 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: you know, if we make this you know, sort of 267 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: shinal shina statirical light on the problems that we were seeing. 268 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: With this, you know, people will recognize just how how 269 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: ridiculous and how many problems are and you know that 270 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 1: we see this today, you know, look at the Daily 271 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: Show or take your pick for any any political comedy 272 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: routine that's out there. You know, You're satire is a 273 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: really is a really powerful tool in and of itself. 274 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: And so what these what these folks would do is 275 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: they would just dress up on these outlandish uniforms, like 276 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: swords that were way too large, or you know, ridiculous 277 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: amounts of ornamentation and buttons and ribbons and uniforms. They'll 278 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: just throw these really loud parades where they would just 279 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: go up and down the street. And I imagine it's 280 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: a little bit like you know any any you know, 281 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: causeplay group, which that can be described as like it's 282 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: a drinking group where sometimes dressed up in costume. You know, 283 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: a lot of these guys we get, you know, fantastically 284 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: drunk and then run around and make a lot of 285 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: noise and drive everybody nuts and then you go off 286 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: to do the next one. And like there was a 287 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: guy that there was One of the stories there was 288 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: that they elected a guy who was probably not all 289 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: there like as their leader, and it was just you 290 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: know that they were just sort of showing that just 291 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: that how ridiculous this this malicious system was and over 292 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: over time it sort of became morphed out of that 293 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: satirical thing and it became more of like an tuition 294 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: in of itself, or you know, this is just the 295 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: thing you do. You know on this day you go 296 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: and this these loud parades, you honk horns, and you 297 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: dress up in these ridiculous costumes, and like a lot 298 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: of communities just hated them because they were so obnoxious. Um, 299 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: and there's some stories of where they were arrested and 300 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: you know because they were like they get chased out 301 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: of town because they're just being being just that annoying. 302 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: And it's basically just one of those things that just 303 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: it sort of just grew with with time. That's just 304 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: that's like one example. And and I sort of came 305 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: across that while looking at like, you know how with 306 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: this idea that costumes can be used to relate to 307 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: a story. This is just one example of many throughout 308 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: history where this has happened. When I was working for 309 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: a text site called The Verge, Handmaid's Tale had just 310 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: come out, and um, there was a it was a 311 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: major abortion bill in Texas, and um, you know, protesters 312 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: started showing up as handmaids from from The Handmaid's Tale 313 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: and they still do this today. That there was an 314 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: entire organization that's sort of spring up to sort of 315 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: try to get handmaids to stand in front of each 316 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: state capital across the country. And I think that that's 317 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: again costume and can really in bringing these ideas to life. 318 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: Is this very tangible thing, and it can really sort 319 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: of jolt somebody into thinking, you know, it's realizing what's 320 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: what's going on, and you know, this is what we 321 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: see a lot. You know that the Tea Party movement 322 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: had its own protesters and they dressed up as revolutionary 323 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: figures because you know, people relate to those stories. That 324 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: makes them recognize and sort of understand what their messaging is. 325 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: There's other examples from the book as well. There's a 326 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: there's a guy in Turkey who who dressed up as 327 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: Darth Vader during some of the protests there. And I'm 328 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: sure there's you know, any anytime you have got big, 329 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: you know, really big movements, you'll see other people dressing up. 330 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: Another another really good example was the suffrage movement, where 331 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: women would dress up as Columbia or Um Lady Liberty 332 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: and Um you know, there there's some pictures that we 333 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: that are included in the book that are from the 334 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: National Archives, These phenomenal pictures of these women dressed up 335 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: in costume on the capital, you know, at this at 336 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: this point in moment where they didn't have as many 337 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: rights as they do today, and it's it's just incredible 338 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: to see. There is another historical connection to costuming and 339 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 1: cosplay that I wanted to talk about because I know 340 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: some of our listeners participate in this group, but not 341 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: everyone might know about it, and it's pretty interesting. You 342 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: trace in the book the origins of the s c A. 343 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,479 Speaker 1: Will you kind of give a brief rundown of what 344 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: the s c A is and how it started. Yeah, So, 345 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 1: the the s stands for Society for Creative Anachronism. It's 346 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: it's basically the folks who dressed up as as medieval 347 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: nights in an armor and there. It's the scope of 348 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: the group is a little bit broader than that. It's 349 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: it's sort of bringing the you know, the medieval world 350 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: to life. Um so, like it's connected to like the 351 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: idea of Rentfair's medieval reenactments, and the group itself sort 352 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: of comes out of this weird branch of science fiction 353 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: fandom nineteen fifties nineteen sixties where cosplay wasn't was sort 354 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: of a thing. Dressing up in costume a sort of 355 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: a thing at that point. But what happened that there 356 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: was a over in Berkeley, California, a bunch of science 357 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,360 Speaker 1: fiction fantasy authors sort of got together for like this 358 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: UM event at their house and they were basically the 359 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: encouraged to dress up as sort of pseudo medieval characters, 360 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: and you know, they all showed up, they had a 361 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: good time, and then they decided that they would go 362 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 1: do it again and again, and it basically grew into 363 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: this much larger group. So UM like authors like Paul 364 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: Anderson or marian Z Bradley were part of this, and 365 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 1: it was just this idea of again sort of getting 366 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: back to the idea of relating to a story, whether 367 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: it is real or fictional. And Medieval Europe has sort 368 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: of its own story in and of itself because we 369 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 1: have this really peculiar idea of what is medieval and 370 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: like what is actual reality. I think a lot of 371 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: ways the the sd A and I'm not a member. 372 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: I'm not a member, and this is just like I 373 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: sort of touched on book, but they sort of have 374 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: just an idea of what medieval Europe might have been like, 375 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: and it's sort of really influenced by, like, you know, 376 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: the Tale of King Arthur and you know, a lot 377 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: of those myths, those fantastic myths that we were probably 378 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: all familiar with, and rather than like as is a 379 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 1: straight up historical reenactment group, it was sort of like 380 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: playing with the idea of what we think of as 381 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: medieval King Arthur's Europe rather than what it actually might 382 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: have been like. And I think anytime you start have yeah, 383 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: there's sort of this drift towards reality at some point 384 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: where you um, you know, stuff will tend to get 385 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: a little bit more realistic over time, but for the 386 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: most part, it's it's it's sort of a little bit 387 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: more informed by this this idea and this this love 388 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: of the love of this this um of those of 389 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: those stories, and it sort of grew from there. One 390 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: of the folks I spoke with talked about how a 391 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: couple of years after this, they basically showed up at 392 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: at a big convention in California, one of the world 393 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 1: cons and um, you know, there's alongside science fiction off, 394 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: there's talking about the future. There are you know, these 395 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 1: people dressed up as knights and turning armor doing demonstrations 396 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: in the front lawn of this hotel and um, you know, 397 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: hanging out in the hallway. It's interesting just to see 398 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: how this sort of started in science fiction fandom, because 399 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: that's where sort of all these folks sort of knew 400 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: each other from and it sort of grew into its 401 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: own things. And now we have this huge network of 402 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: of renaissance fairs all over the country. You can go 403 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: to you know, established permanent locations that are attractions, or 404 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: you know there's you know, the ones that will you know, 405 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: it's basically an outdoor convention where they'll you know, show 406 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: up with tents and armor and you know, have a 407 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: good time over the courts of the weekend. And um, 408 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 1: the essay itself has become this massive organization um that 409 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: you know, you know, thousands of people are part of 410 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: all over the world, and it's just it's a really 411 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: it's a really great example of community and people just 412 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: sort of sharing in this this a sharing in a community, 413 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: but sharing in this idealized shared story with one another. 414 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: It's so fascinating to me, like the level of structure 415 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 1: that exists now and knowing that it just kind of 416 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: started with some people wanting to kick around in fun 417 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: outfits is pretty great. I'm glad that you mentioned world 418 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: Con because you mentioned that in the book is kind 419 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: of one of the first real inflection points of this 420 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: twentieth century move into convention costuming um that the first 421 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: World Con was kind of the first time we saw 422 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: it happen. So I am hoping you will talk a 423 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: little bit about organized fandom or sometimes disorganized fandom, and 424 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: its ties to cosplay history. Yeah, Phantom was a really 425 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: strange and very um, sort of wild west of fan 426 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: organizations over the years, especially around the New York City 427 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: area where a lot of these authors are from. So 428 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: science fiction proper, you know, there's I like the light, 429 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: I like the like in history to a geologic formation, 430 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: so where you have you rarely have definite breaks where 431 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: all of a sudden you have one thing that was 432 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: one thing and another thing that is a different thing, 433 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: you know, right next to each other, where there's a 434 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: straight clear line of delineation, and history often has like 435 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: these trails that sort of extend out and merge into 436 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: other things or they sort of uh change and sort 437 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: of weave in and out science. You know, trying to find, 438 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: like a put a pin where science fiction comes from 439 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: is a really difficult thing to do because you know, 440 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: you can always find something that comes before it. Um, 441 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: you know, you've got Jill's Fern, but then Jules Verne 442 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: wasn't influenced by you know, folks before him, and then 443 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: like you know, Mary Shelley had influences and like, you know, 444 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 1: there's academics who say that, you know, science the first 445 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: science fictional novel you know, was back in like the 446 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: ancient Greek times, and you know it's I I like 447 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: to sort of talk about stuff like, you know, what 448 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: what does modern bandom and modern cosplay and modern science 449 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:43,959 Speaker 1: fiction look like? And a lot of yeah, and when 450 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: it comes to that, like you have a couple of 451 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: very clear points that you know, you were definitely in 452 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 1: a point where there is science fiction, but you know 453 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: it's it's nebulous as to what sort of came before 454 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: or after science fiction had been around for you know, 455 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: a little while. There's a there's an influential magazine called 456 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: Amazing Stories that was first published in by guy named 457 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: Hugo Gernsback. That's largely seen as sort of the birth 458 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 1: of modern science fiction because it was their stories about 459 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: the future, about technology, and it's sort of like the 460 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: the the early thing that looks the most like what 461 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: we have as modern science fic, even though it's today 462 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: it would be very outdated. That magazine Amazing Stories was 463 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: really influential because AIDS spawned a lot of imentators from 464 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: other rival companies who wanted saw that hey there's an 465 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: audience for this, let's jump on this bandwagon and go 466 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: from there. Um. And there's a lot of fans who 467 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: were like, hey, I like these stories, I want to 468 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: read more of them, and they were consuming all of 469 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: these things. UM. What Gernsback really did that was interesting 470 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: was he put a letter column in those magazines, and 471 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: it was basically encouraged those fans to write in comments 472 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: about the story, Um, just I like this thing, or 473 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: you know, I want to meet other science fiction fans, 474 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: and he basically set up an actual network of of clubs, UM, 475 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: the Science Fiction League, the trying to get you know, 476 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: I think his reasons were very self you know, self centered. 477 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: I think he was mostly interested in making sure that 478 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: he had a block of people that were in you 479 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: continually engaged with science fiction fantasy literature. And you know, 480 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 1: they would continue to go back to his magazines over 481 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: and over again, regardless of his intentions. Um, you know this, 482 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: these clubs really helped get the way to get fans 483 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: to talk to each other. They write each other letters 484 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: through these magazines. They and they would like, Hey, this 485 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: person is from New York too, I'll go try to 486 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: you know, I'll track them down. And they would go 487 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: and do this, and they formed their own their own 488 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: in person clubs where they could get together and talk 489 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: about science fiction fantasy books. And this is sort of 490 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: where we see the roots of modern pandom is that 491 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: they are people who are gathering because of the shared interest. 492 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: And when you get a couple of people people to 493 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: gather in a room, they have a lot of fun time, 494 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: they talked about their favorite stories. They nerd out of it, 495 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: and then they realized like, hey, there's more people out 496 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: there all over the place, and let's all of us 497 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: get together into one big room and talk about the 498 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: thing we love the most. And before there were a 499 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: handful of other small conventions around the country and around 500 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 1: the world, there was one in the UK that there's 501 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: a couple around the United States of these proto conventions, 502 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 1: but this was the first World Science Fiction Convention, was 503 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: like a really big officialist type thing. It was it 504 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 1: was a time for the World's Fair that year, and 505 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: they attracted fans from all over the country, so not 506 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: just in New York based fans, um all of whom 507 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: were squabbling with one another and and you know, had 508 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: all these they some of them didn't really like each 509 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: other very much, but they were able to bring in 510 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: fans from you know, California, like Ray Bradberry and Forrest 511 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 1: Ackerman and Morojo Wash I'll get to in just a second, 512 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,959 Speaker 1: and they, um, you know, this is a gathering as 513 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: a as a community, a real sort of inflection point 514 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: for this community that you know, hey, we can get 515 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: together and we can talk about this stuff. And look, 516 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: there's people that share my that are like me, and 517 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,439 Speaker 1: it's it's a real validation for all those people to say, like, 518 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: you know, this this is something I don't know. I 519 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: don't know many people in my life that really like 520 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: this sort of thing, but now there are others out 521 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 1: there that that's a really a validating thing for one's 522 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 1: existence and I think a lot of people who have 523 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: been a fan of anything will will sort of recognize that. 524 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: So that was, Yeah, that's sort of the foundational base 525 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: layer for all this. This big convention happened in nine 526 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: and two fans Forest and Morojo. They show up. They 527 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: decided to dress up in costume that they're from the 528 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 1: movie called The Things to Come From based off of 529 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: an h. Q. Wells book, and um, they sort of 530 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: arrived and everyone's like, what the hell are you doing? 531 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 1: This is weird and which is you know, not not 532 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: uncommon reaction whenever anybody in costume shows up unexpectedly. He 533 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: just hangs around and he gets a couple of pictures 534 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: taken of him that the Forest cut pictures of himself 535 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: taken and his girlfriend is there with him. Who she 536 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: actually she's actually the one who made the costumes. Um, 537 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: he has for a long time gotten a lot of 538 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: the credit, but she's the one who actually made them. 539 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: The next year, the world they decided that hey, we're 540 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: gona hold this convention again a year later in Chicago, 541 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: and Forest and Morojo show up again in costume, and 542 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of other people show up in costume 543 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: and they decided, like, you know, this is really cool. 544 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 1: They walked around the con, they decided to walk out 545 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: in public. Um. They got stopped by cop um who 546 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: basically thought they were all nuts. And it wasn't until 547 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: one of them pulled out his like he was actually 548 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: a government worker, and he pulled out his idea and said, no, 549 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: I'm not, I'm really not this crazy person. Um. And 550 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: they ended up going over to a newspaper office to 551 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: say like, hey, we're time travelers in the future. We're 552 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: here for our interview that's gonna run tomorrow. Um. And 553 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: as far as I could tell that never they didn't 554 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: really quite go for that. But it was just an 555 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: idea of the just you know, fans being goofy. And 556 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: you know, you have to remember these are also kids 557 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: that are like eighteen twenty one years old that you know, 558 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: the same age as a lot of Cause players today. 559 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: So you know, there's a lot of you know, we 560 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: the modern day, we like doing a lot of goofy 561 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 1: stuff in in kit and um. It's a nice little 562 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: shared point from you know, people a hundred years ago, 563 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: we're doing the same thing. What costume ever? Ever? And 564 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,919 Speaker 1: then the next year the con went to Denver, and 565 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: people did it again, and they decided to hold like 566 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 1: a costume contest at this convention, and um people brought 567 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: these really elaborate costumes. They like one of them spent um, 568 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: you know, months putting feathers, you know, making a bird 569 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: costume like I was like a birdhead. And then another 570 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: one fished a big piece of I don't know it 571 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 1: was a glass or plastic like for help us, like 572 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: a spaceship helmet. Um. Robert Highlin, who is the author 573 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: Starship Troopers, was a guest of honor and he didn't 574 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: realize this costume contest, but then he decided, I'm gonna 575 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: go a is um the most realistic the world's most 576 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: realistic robot. And you know there's just a lot of 577 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: other a lot of other stuff like that. And from 578 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: from there what happens is that this becomes a pillar 579 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: of the of the of the convention scene. Is like 580 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: of course, at every on now you have a costume 581 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: contest where people get to just it's usually it was 582 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: usually like the last day of the convention and people 583 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: just go to hang out and have fun, you know, 584 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: just have a good time and then throwing some prizes 585 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: like the best, the best costumer or you know, it 586 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: would vary from from place to place. So what they 587 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: would do, um, actually looking at there's a great organization 588 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: called FANAC which documents a lot of this stand history, 589 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: and what they're doing is they have gotten scans of 590 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: a lot of like the documents that they were sending 591 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: out to people. So usually what would happen is that 592 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: a member of the con would get a couple of 593 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: updates ahead of time saying like, you know, this is 594 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: where the convention will be, and this is the rate, 595 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: and you know this is what we're happening. And you know, 596 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: here's a letter from the organizers saying how excited we are. 597 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: And like, over time you're starting to see them saying like, 598 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: oh yes, and this year we'll have a constume contest again, 599 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: which is gonna be our favorite thing. Here's some ideas. Um. 600 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: You know, it just became a big pillar. Uh. You 601 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: know a big part of this that you know just 602 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: happened a year after year. Um, and as it grew, 603 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: it became more formalized. Um. You know, the costume contest 604 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: was as a masquerade and had rules that were set down. 605 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: There's entire organizations that came out of it. U UM, 606 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: the Costuming Guild which helps set up those rules, came 607 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: out of it, and they set up their own conventions 608 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: and programming tracks at World const This sort of because 609 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: people were like, they might, yeah, I might the science 610 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: fiction stuff is kind of fun, but like, you know, 611 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: I really liked sewing. I really like making costumes and 612 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: it it sort of helped demonstrate that, like, fandom is 613 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: not limited to just being an enthusiast or something you 614 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: can you're you know once, fandom can appear in different ways. Um, 615 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: it can be a you know, you can write fan fiction, 616 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: you can be the super reader who collects all of 617 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: the magazines, or you can make the costumes based off 618 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: the cover art of of the of the books and 619 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: magazine covers. So that's sort of how costuming became a 620 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: thing within science fiction fandom. Is it was this, It 621 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: just sort of grew little by little as more people 622 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: sort of realized and I think it just takes It 623 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: just takes one person like forest Or and Moro Hope. 624 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: Let's say, oh I really like that character, I can 625 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: dress up as them. I have this shirt and my 626 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: my wardrobe, or if I do, if I put this 627 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: thing on it will make me look like this character. 628 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: And you know, as we're storytelling creatures, we've always sort 629 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: of gravitated towards adding a prop to you know, we're 630 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: making a story, and you know that just helps that 631 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: bring it to life just a little bit more. Ah. 632 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: And now it's the funnest part. You mentioned some of 633 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: these early costumes, and this entire book is really for 634 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: someone that loves cosplay and costuming and history. It is 635 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: just full of photos that are really astounding. Some of 636 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: the earliest of these convention costumes, including Forrest Ackerman's costume 637 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: in and others that they're clearly older photos, but there 638 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: is an element to them that feels so entirely familiar 639 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: to anyone who has been to an event like this 640 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,959 Speaker 1: in the modern an era. UM, I want to know 641 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: how you managed to get ahold of all of those 642 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: amazing photographs. So there's a couple of couple of places. UM. 643 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: I've been a five first member for since two thousand 644 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,479 Speaker 1: and I've carried a camera with me to a lot 645 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: of events, so a whole bunch I took myself over 646 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: the years. I announced the book back in two thousand 647 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: nineteen Spring two thousand nineteen and actually announced in the 648 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: day that I was leaving Star Wars Celebration in Chicago, 649 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: and I, you know, we've known that we're gonna be 650 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: announcing it that day, so and I was going to 651 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: the con. So I was like, all right, well, I 652 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: need to start taking pictures for quoting air quotes here research, 653 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: not just taking in all the amazing costumes there. But 654 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: over the course of two thousand nineteen, I ended up 655 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: going to UM celebration, I went to Dragon Con, I 656 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: went to Rhode Island Comic Con, and UM. I didn't 657 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: make it to New York Comic Con because my daughter 658 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: was born like the week before. I wasn't allowed to leave. 659 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: I went to Grant State Comic Con with a really 660 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: small local convention and Boston Fan Expo, and all along 661 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: the way it was it was taking pictures of you know, 662 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: the state of the modern of modern cosplay and specifically 663 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: looking for you know, costumes that have been three D 664 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: printed or that had been made out of foam or 665 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: you know, five out first members and you know everything, 666 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: you know, anything that sort of struck my eye that 667 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: would that would be really cool, you know, just like 668 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: a we wanted to document a cool costume, but also 669 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: just sort of the idea of like, you know, I'm 670 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: looking for stuff that to for this book. Obviously I 671 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: wasn't born in the nineteen thirties and and wasn't around 672 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: for a lot of those conventions, so some of those 673 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: came from some places. There's there's one guy I have 674 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: to really call out is John Cooker who is a 675 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: longtime fan, science fiction fan, and he had this really 676 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: incredible archive of pictures to use UM that he really 677 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: graciously let me use for the book. And these were 678 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: from you know, all over the place, nineties, nineteen, you know, fifties, sixties, 679 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: and it was really you know, his generosity to let 680 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: me use those real he helped include them in the book. UM. 681 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: And there's other authors to um. The late Mike Resnick 682 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: was a long SI he's a science fiction author, UM 683 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: who incidentally bought my my first short story for a 684 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 1: magazine called Galaxy's Edge. And he had been a long 685 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 1: time staple in the in the science fiction costuming community, 686 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,760 Speaker 1: and UM he had taken pictures of cons for most 687 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: of the time that he was doing that. So his 688 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,479 Speaker 1: his widow and daughter were able to provide a couple 689 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: that we were able to use and just or just generally, 690 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 1: you know, looking through a lot of the pictures that 691 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: he that they had was was really great just to 692 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,399 Speaker 1: get an idea of the complexity and like the real 693 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: craft that was going into these into these costumes, you know, 694 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: in the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties. There's other sources as well. UM. 695 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,240 Speaker 1: In some cases we went to UM Archives, National Archives, 696 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: Library of Congress, Florida. I got some pictures from a 697 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: Florida archive of for Halloween. You see, Riverside has a 698 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: has a massive science fiction collection UM and fandom collection, 699 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: and they had I found I wish I had found 700 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: it a little bit earlier in the process because I 701 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: probably would have gotten more pictures from there. But there's 702 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 1: a guy who had taken off pictures of cons for years, 703 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 1: and he had some really incredible pictures of UM fans 704 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: in costume. UM. There's a really great picture of some 705 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: that I included the book about Star Trek fans who 706 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: were hanging out at the con at a con UM 707 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: and you know, you look at their faces and it 708 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:28,399 Speaker 1: just looks like they were they could have been any 709 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: of any of the kids I saw at Star Wars celebration. 710 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: You know, the same enthusiasm was there and the same 711 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: excitement for being there. Um and actually U so yeah, 712 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:38,879 Speaker 1: like there there's there's a whole lot of places where 713 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: were able to source source images from and along the 714 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: same lines, you know, we're able to get a lot 715 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: of good, um, you know, interviews from folks who were 716 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: involved in the fan community from there. Um. There's a 717 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: woman named Astord Bear who's the daughter of Paul Anderson, 718 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: and she had been in involved in fandom from from 719 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: all of her her life. She probably pivotal information about like, 720 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: you know, what was what was it like when Star 721 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: Trek came in, and she had some great pictures of 722 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: herself in Star Trek and a Star Trek costume, um, 723 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: and you know, stuff that really impacted. So there's you know, 724 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of people here alive who are still 725 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 1: familiar with you know, they were watching you know, the 726 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: fan scene and seeing these early these early days of 727 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 1: costuming um, and they were able to you know, share 728 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: those memories and and really sort of helped add to 729 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: the book in a lot of in a lot of ways. UM. 730 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: So um. Yeah that that that's where a lot of 731 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 1: that came from. Is just is a lot of research, 732 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: a lot of interviews. It wasn't just all just all 733 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: historical folks, um, you know, it was also people who 734 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: were involved. Now, Um, you know I talked to people 735 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: about you know, three printing and um you know what 736 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: was like cow did, like the Internet changed things in 737 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: the um um. Adam Savage of the MythBusters was a 738 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: really great um source for that. He's been involved in 739 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: the costume world for years, and you know, he had 740 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: some really great insights into how, you know, the modern 741 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: the modern movement has sort of come about. It's interesting 742 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: that you mentioned the modern movement because I do, like 743 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: I said at the top, there is this sense, I 744 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 1: think for everyone that like they are the first, they 745 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: are living through the first great explosion of fan costuming. 746 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: But one of the things that I always love seeing, 747 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: and you include a lot of it in your your book. 748 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: You have a section that specifically about when Star Wars 749 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: premiered and how quickly there were people. Certainly they did 750 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: not have like the levels of like vacuum formed a 751 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,439 Speaker 1: BS plastics that we have today, but almost instantly, by 752 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: the end of nineteen seventy seven, there were already people 753 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: putting together Stormtrooper costumes. Um, well, you talk about some 754 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 1: of those, because I know that we both share a 755 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: love of this particular topic. So if you type in 756 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,919 Speaker 1: like nineteen nineteen seventy seven Star Wars costumes, you'll find 757 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 1: some really great examples. Some star Wars dot Com interviewed 758 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: a couple of folks. And there's every now and then 759 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: you'll see somebody posting a picture. Oh the was me 760 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: back in you know, you know June seventy seven that 761 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: you worked on this costume. Um, there's a guy I found. Um, 762 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: this is actually again some of the stuff just sort 763 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: of happened, you know, spontaneously. I think I announced that 764 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,760 Speaker 1: I was doing the book and um, you know on Twitter, 765 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: and somebody got in touch thing like, oh yeah, my 766 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 1: cousin made these really incredible costumes and you know, in 767 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies and eighties, and it got me in 768 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: touch with him. And this guy named David Ray he 769 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: has sadly since passed away. He died not too long 770 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,359 Speaker 1: after I spoke with him. Maybe you know, several months 771 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: later he had cancer. Um, but I was thrilled to 772 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 1: talk to him, and he he was a really gracious 773 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: interviewe because he walked me through what he did, and 774 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 1: he was basically said, well, I was a kid and um, 775 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 1: you know, liked costumes, and I ended up, um going 776 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: to see Star Wars you know, thirty or forty times 777 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: in theaters, and I just took a notebook with me, 778 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: and I would just jot down notes. And sometimes he 779 00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: would get so wrapped up in the movie that he 780 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: would forget to take notes in like darn, I becau 781 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: see the movie again, and um, yeah, oh no, twist 782 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: my arm. And so he he basically went and he 783 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: made stuff out of cardboard. He got an old army helmet. Um, 784 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: he would just cobble these costumes together and it looked 785 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: really great. I mean like there's a point to where, 786 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: like you know, if you know, if you're real accuracy personally, like, oh, 787 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: that's not really accurate, but it's it's more like the 788 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: spirit behind it. You know, you just see how much 789 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,280 Speaker 1: how much he cared about the costume and the character 790 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:28,839 Speaker 1: that you know, he was able to build these really 791 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: fantastic looking costumes because like and you know they're good 792 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,839 Speaker 1: enough for that the local movie theater like hired him 793 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:41,399 Speaker 1: to basically walk around round nineteen seventy nine, because back 794 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 1: then movies would just run continually. They wouldn't be like 795 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 1: the short you know, three or four weeks that they 796 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: run in theaters nowadays, Like you know, Star Wars was 797 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: the theaters for months and and the year it got 798 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: rereleased a whole bunch of times, and seventy eight and 799 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: seventy nine, and so they hired him to basically you 800 00:39:57,840 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: know him and his his his siblings would like they 801 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: dressed up in these costumes. They walked around the theater 802 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,239 Speaker 1: and you know it's a storm Trooper, starth Vader. Um. 803 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: He made a Bobafet costume. He went on and made 804 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,359 Speaker 1: um like Batman and um, I want to say, a 805 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: Planet of the Apes costumes. Yeah, there's just a lot 806 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 1: of creativity. And you know people were doing these costumes 807 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 1: and really, you know, they're making them out of really 808 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: novel ways like you know, you know, cardboarder or sheet 809 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,919 Speaker 1: metal or you know, they're throwing stuff together. Um, and 810 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,760 Speaker 1: these are not necessarily people within that capital f random 811 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,919 Speaker 1: community who might have put the skills to use through 812 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: that through the community, but they were just like they're 813 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: just coming into a blind and like, you know, this 814 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: is how you you know, you know, this is how 815 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: I put this together star troper, or make this sort 816 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 1: of helmet, And it's just really a real stroke of 817 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 1: creativity because especially when you consider that, you know, there 818 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,479 Speaker 1: weren't the plethora of images that are available these days 819 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: like nowadays. Like a really good example of this is 820 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: in two thousand sixteen, when right before Rogue One premiered, 821 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,880 Speaker 1: Um Lucas Film brought the short Tripper costumes to celebration 822 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 1: in London and people took really the high resolution photos 823 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: of all those costumes. They were able to identify some 824 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: of the used parts and what went into them, you know, 825 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,839 Speaker 1: down to like the ribbing on the undersuit and the 826 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: pants and the right brand boot that they bought to 827 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: use for that costume. And within months they had already 828 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: begun sculpting their own costumes out of this armor in 829 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: their vacuum. For me, so I was able to go 830 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,320 Speaker 1: to the Rogue one premiere as a short tropper. Before 831 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 1: the film premiered, Um, you know, people had made the 832 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: helmets and they made all these other parts and yeah, 833 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: they you know, that's we we could do that because 834 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 1: we have all these resources nowadays. But back then, you know, 835 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 1: you you had just you had to go to the 836 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,399 Speaker 1: theater over and over again. You might or you might 837 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 1: have like a random it's not very clear picture in 838 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 1: star log or or a newspaper. Um, you certainly didn't 839 00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:58,879 Speaker 1: have sort of the hands on access that you had 840 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 1: you have these days, and you know that the world 841 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,759 Speaker 1: has changed so much. I mean, video games will release 842 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 1: hundred hundred plus page documents, you know, outlining every single 843 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 1: angle of a character, or here's the paint here's the 844 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,480 Speaker 1: exact paint color scheme. Yeah, for for Halo in Finite, 845 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,760 Speaker 1: they three four, the three industries released this massive document 846 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,480 Speaker 1: for for cause players, So like this is where all 847 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: these parts look like, and this is all the colors 848 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: you need, and this is what from every angle and 849 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,279 Speaker 1: you know, we just these folks did the same thing 850 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 1: without all of that, and it's just really incredible to 851 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 1: see that level of creativity persist. I'm so grateful that 852 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,319 Speaker 1: you captured some of those stories for this book because 853 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,239 Speaker 1: it is one of those things that, um, I'm I'm 854 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,759 Speaker 1: blown away by their workmanship, even though you said like 855 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,720 Speaker 1: in a lot of cases they're kind of throwing it together, 856 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 1: but the ingenuity is off the charts. So it's really 857 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: really nice that we have a way that that's been 858 00:42:51,680 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: documented for future generations to enjoy. There are so many 859 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 1: little gifts in this book, like for someone that loves costumes. 860 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,319 Speaker 1: Like I said, there are just many many things that 861 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 1: I know surprised me. But I want to know to 862 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: close out, what was the most surprising thing you learned 863 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,880 Speaker 1: while you were researching this. That's that's a hard one. 864 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 1: I've been trying to think about, like what this might be. 865 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: There's there's so yeah, there's so many like just random 866 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 1: little anecdotes and then sort of one of the things 867 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,720 Speaker 1: about histories, you pull on a thread and there's always 868 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: a little bit more of the story. And so I 869 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 1: think one of the things that blew my mind it 870 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 1: really helps shape some of the book was the idea 871 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: that the reason that we have you know, you see 872 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 1: so many people using three D printers these days, is 873 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,520 Speaker 1: not because they are suddenly like you know, magically widely available. 874 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 1: There's no reason. The patents expired on the original technology. 875 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: And because those patents it's expired, companies don't need to 876 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 1: pay license and fees to use the technology, and as 877 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 1: a result, they can make a cheaper device. And if 878 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,240 Speaker 1: you it's a little bit cheaper to make, you can 879 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 1: maybe drop the price a bit. And so the price 880 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,200 Speaker 1: on the three D printer has gone steadily down. You know, 881 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,919 Speaker 1: it's still a couple hundred bucks, but you know it's not. 882 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,239 Speaker 1: If you're a dedicated customer and this is something that 883 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 1: you're doing a lot of, you know that that's a 884 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 1: that's an investment you can make in order to make 885 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 1: those parts and that you might be looking to make. 886 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:17,880 Speaker 1: And I mean I have one here at my house. 887 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,279 Speaker 1: You know, I never you know, I never would have 888 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 1: thought that I have have a It's a little one, 889 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,200 Speaker 1: but you know, I've made costume parts on before. Um, 890 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 1: and I've made a little twice for my kids. And um, 891 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 1: I've got friends who have you know, two or three 892 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: of them, and they make entire costumes on them. What 893 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,040 Speaker 1: that sort of helped me realize is that the and 894 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,799 Speaker 1: and this is sort of a broader picture of of 895 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 1: just the idea of access to to cosplay. As the 896 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: price goes down, access goes up. And that appears in 897 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 1: a whole lot of ways. So if you have you know, 898 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 1: you don't need of multi thousands of dollars to make 899 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:54,319 Speaker 1: a vacuum forming machine if you want to make a 900 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: short trip, or now you can you can get buy 901 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:57,799 Speaker 1: a three D printer, or if you have access to one, 902 00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 1: you may need to own it. You go to a 903 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,520 Speaker 1: local library and print up parts. That's something I've done. 904 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,640 Speaker 1: You can make a costume that's a lot cheaper than 905 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 1: ever before, and it might still be an investment, but 906 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,400 Speaker 1: it's not quite what it used to be. UM. The 907 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 1: same thing goes for materials um e V A phone, 908 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,279 Speaker 1: the stuff that is in your yoga mat. You know 909 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,839 Speaker 1: that is an incredible cause, you know, material for cause 910 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: players to use, and you know, people realize have realized 911 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,879 Speaker 1: for years that you know this, you can make really 912 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 1: incredible armor out of it. And there's a lot of 913 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:28,919 Speaker 1: ingenuity that goes that. It's also really cheap. You can 914 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,480 Speaker 1: you can go nowadays, you can go to Joan Fabrics 915 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,920 Speaker 1: and buy sheets of it. UM you can buy a 916 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,319 Speaker 1: yoga mat and you can you know, make parts out 917 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:37,880 Speaker 1: of it. I think that was sort of like the 918 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,840 Speaker 1: biggest revelation I had, because it's sort of transformed the 919 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 1: book from my idea of like, all right, these events happen, 920 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 1: and this is sort of what it tells us about 921 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: Bandam into an economic story about how this is why 922 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,000 Speaker 1: this has expanded. And I really believe that it's it's 923 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,440 Speaker 1: sort of the the access to cheaper materials and the 924 00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: widespread knowledge of how to do this stuff. You know. 925 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,600 Speaker 1: You know that's how by um, you know, forums or 926 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 1: or Facebook pages or YouTube, UM, you know, it teaches 927 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 1: a much greater population how to do this. And that's 928 00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,439 Speaker 1: also helped along by the idea that when you see 929 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,319 Speaker 1: sort of cause play in action, whether it's UM through 930 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,080 Speaker 1: a faith you know, friend of yours on Facebook who 931 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:19,680 Speaker 1: might have been got been new convention and you have 932 00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 1: to see them tag in the picture, or you know, 933 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 1: if you see the main characters on the Big Bang 934 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,520 Speaker 1: theory caused playing and it's like, oh, that's the thing 935 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,319 Speaker 1: I can do and that and that sort of helps 936 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 1: guide that access along. UM. And so you know that 937 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,279 Speaker 1: that was that was a really big revelation that I 938 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,040 Speaker 1: had that really helped change the book, is that it's 939 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,920 Speaker 1: it's the reason that caused play is exploding so much 940 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 1: is that just more people can do it, more people 941 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,720 Speaker 1: can afford to do it, and um, it's not limited 942 00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,800 Speaker 1: to just a really narrow segment of the population of 943 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,239 Speaker 1: of folks. Who can afford to have, you know, to 944 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,400 Speaker 1: develp a thousand or two thous on a on a 945 00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,640 Speaker 1: really high end costume, or or suspend a decade toiling 946 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,920 Speaker 1: away on it. Actually, there's another surprising thing that I 947 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,439 Speaker 1: learned UM that that's kind of fun. Is that another 948 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,799 Speaker 1: technological advance that really helped the introducing the intention of 949 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:14,960 Speaker 1: the blue ray. Because what that did is, you know, 950 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,120 Speaker 1: if you're watching on UM in a theater, you can't 951 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: pose it. VHS does not quite have the right resolution, 952 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:23,640 Speaker 1: and when you pose it you get all the lines 953 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,280 Speaker 1: across UM. But then when you have DVD s come around, 954 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:28,920 Speaker 1: you can, oh you can you can freeze frame it 955 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:30,520 Speaker 1: and you can sort of get a good glimpse of 956 00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,440 Speaker 1: what a piece of armor is. But even then it's 957 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,880 Speaker 1: still not quite as you know, the the the resolution 958 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 1: not quite there. But blue ray did is it really 959 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,680 Speaker 1: let you see those those those costumes and a really 960 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 1: high resolution that people have never seen before absent actually 961 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,360 Speaker 1: seen the costume in person. If if a studio happened 962 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:53,520 Speaker 1: to like tour them around or um, you know, if 963 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,400 Speaker 1: you have to come across one and if you're like 964 00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:00,319 Speaker 1: a really wealthy collector or work or whatever. Uh. An 965 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,200 Speaker 1: anecdote that was sharing with me from a local Bofet 966 00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:06,439 Speaker 1: cost players that once when the blue rays came out, 967 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,319 Speaker 1: what they started to do is they freez framed on 968 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:11,920 Speaker 1: Boba Fett as he was walking around his like what 969 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:16,600 Speaker 1: thirteen minutes of screen time, and they recognized like, oh, 970 00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:19,080 Speaker 1: this this thing on here on his arm. We've never 971 00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 1: quite been able to figure out what it is, but 972 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,080 Speaker 1: it's a it's a calculator, and we were able to 973 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,120 Speaker 1: They were able to figure out what brand that calculator was, 974 00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,279 Speaker 1: so then they will go track it down and they 975 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:30,080 Speaker 1: could integrate it into their suits and it was now 976 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,640 Speaker 1: just a little bit more accurate. Um, the little bits 977 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:34,640 Speaker 1: on his knees, the little the dark things, those sort 978 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:36,880 Speaker 1: of like bentle picks, and then you just never been 979 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:38,719 Speaker 1: able to see them that resolution before. So that was 980 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,560 Speaker 1: another really that was like aha moment for me. It 981 00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,960 Speaker 1: was like, oh, well, of course, you know, you you 982 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,919 Speaker 1: if you can see something, you can you can track 983 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,359 Speaker 1: down more information about it and if you can't see it, 984 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,120 Speaker 1: it just didn't occurred to me that you just wouldn't 985 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,719 Speaker 1: have been able to have seen those things that detail before. Um, 986 00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:56,000 Speaker 1: So that was that was a really kind of a 987 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,319 Speaker 1: neat revelation. Well, I will say this, Uh, this entire 988 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,360 Speaker 1: book is full of fun revelations. So thank you for 989 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,040 Speaker 1: writing it and putting it together, and thank you for 990 00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,120 Speaker 1: spending this time with me today. Thank you for reading it. 991 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,160 Speaker 1: I'm really thrill you liked it and that you found 992 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,680 Speaker 1: it to be interesting and exciting and full of revelations. 993 00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:14,160 Speaker 1: It's been sitting in my head for since two thousand sixteen, 994 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,400 Speaker 1: and um, you know it's it's nice to have people 995 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,520 Speaker 1: realize that it's not just a nonsense or garbage that 996 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,960 Speaker 1: has just poured out of my head. So I really 997 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,520 Speaker 1: appreciate it. Andrew, Thank you so much. I really really 998 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,920 Speaker 1: appreciate it. Thank you. It's been real joy Andrew. In 999 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,440 Speaker 1: case any of our listeners have follow up questions, and 1000 00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,120 Speaker 1: they probably will, where can they find you? You can 1001 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,399 Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at at Andrew Liptech. You can 1002 00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,560 Speaker 1: find me on Instagram at liptach a A. It's l 1003 00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 1: I p t a k A. I think I left 1004 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,520 Speaker 1: Instagram at one point and then when I came back, 1005 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,799 Speaker 1: Andrew Lipptech has been taken so and then, um, the 1006 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,439 Speaker 1: other place you can find me is a I read 1007 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 1: a newsletter called transfer Orbit and you can find that 1008 00:49:55,800 --> 00:50:01,240 Speaker 1: at transfer dash orbit dot ghost dot io. And um, 1009 00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,360 Speaker 1: that's where I write about science fiction, fantasy, history, UM, 1010 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:08,239 Speaker 1: pop culture, the intersections with real life, and if all 1011 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,080 Speaker 1: goes well, I'm gonna probably write some more. I'll certainly 1012 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,160 Speaker 1: be writing more about cosplay. But um, I have an 1013 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,279 Speaker 1: idea for um something I'm calling the lost chapters, which 1014 00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:17,959 Speaker 1: is stuff I didn't quite get to for the book. 1015 00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,240 Speaker 1: So I didn't get around to writing a chapter about furries, 1016 00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:22,719 Speaker 1: which is something I really wanted to do, and just 1017 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:24,920 Speaker 1: it sort of ran out of time. Um, there's a 1018 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:26,640 Speaker 1: whole bunch of other things that at some point over 1019 00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:28,239 Speaker 1: the next couple of months I'm gonna be going back 1020 00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:29,759 Speaker 1: and do a little research and just writing up some 1021 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:31,640 Speaker 1: of those things to sort of add on to the book, 1022 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,400 Speaker 1: because I I really want to learn, I want to 1023 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,200 Speaker 1: keep learning more about it and um, you know, adding 1024 00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:41,080 Speaker 1: more to the story. I want to once again thank 1025 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,239 Speaker 1: Andrew for hanging out with me and talking about a 1026 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,200 Speaker 1: topic I certainly and pretty obviously love that book, which 1027 00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,520 Speaker 1: is Cosplay a History. Will come out June twenty, but 1028 00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,799 Speaker 1: you can preorder it now wherever books are sold, and 1029 00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,439 Speaker 1: then I have a little listener mail for this one. 1030 00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:00,160 Speaker 1: That is a special request from our listener, Christie Mean, 1031 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:04,080 Speaker 1: who writes Hi, Tracy and Holly. My son, Alex has 1032 00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,239 Speaker 1: been listening to your podcast at bedtime for years. I 1033 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,359 Speaker 1: turned him onto stuff you missed in history class when 1034 00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,600 Speaker 1: he was having a hard time settling down at night. 1035 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,279 Speaker 1: Now your show is part of his nightly ritual and 1036 00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,680 Speaker 1: he is always pulling up facts that he learned from it. Recently, 1037 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:21,319 Speaker 1: his class visited the Eastern State Penitentiary in Philadelphia, and 1038 00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:24,080 Speaker 1: he was excited that he already knew about famous inmate 1039 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,879 Speaker 1: al Capone because of the show. Alex's birthday is coming 1040 00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,520 Speaker 1: up on June, so what we are doing today is 1041 00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,120 Speaker 1: wishing Alex a very very happy birthday. I hope it 1042 00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:37,200 Speaker 1: is wonderful and you have a great time, and that 1043 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,800 Speaker 1: you get all of the love and delight and delicious 1044 00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,799 Speaker 1: things that everyone should get on their birthday. E mean 1045 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:46,759 Speaker 1: birth day, I mean weirth day, Alex. I won't sing 1046 00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,960 Speaker 1: that song because I don't like it, but I do 1047 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,480 Speaker 1: love birthdays, so I hope it's a great one. If 1048 00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,000 Speaker 1: you would like to write to us, you can do 1049 00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,239 Speaker 1: so at History Podcast at I Heart radio dot com. 1050 00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:59,719 Speaker 1: You can also find us on social media as missed 1051 00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:02,600 Speaker 1: in his story, and you can subscribe to the show 1052 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,879 Speaker 1: on the I heart Radio app or wherever you listen 1053 00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:12,680 Speaker 1: to your favorite podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class 1054 00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,759 Speaker 1: is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts 1055 00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,200 Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 1056 00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,480 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.