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Speaker 1: You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast DAM

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Speaker 1: Paranormal podcast network, where we offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,

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Speaker 1: and the unexplained. Get ready now for Beyond Contact with

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Speaker 1: Captain Rong.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and

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Speaker 2: opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions

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Speaker 2: only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast

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Speaker 2: to Coast AM, employees of Premiere Networks, or their sponsors

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Speaker 2: and associates. We would like to encourage you to do

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Speaker 2: your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.

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Speaker 3: Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and Each week on Beyond Contact,

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Speaker 3: we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of

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Speaker 3: the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from

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Speaker 3: the newest cases as we talk with the top experts.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Beyond Contact, and today we are speaking with author,

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Speaker 3: journalist and TV personality Nick Pope. Nick worked for the

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Speaker 3: British government for twenty one years, including the UFO Desk

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Speaker 3: at the Ministry of Defense from ninety one to ninety four,

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Speaker 3: where he researched and investigated UFOs alien abductions. Crop circles

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Speaker 3: and other strange phenomenon. He has even written five best

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Speaker 3: selling books, including Encounters in Rendalscham Forrest, the inside story

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Speaker 3: of the world's best documented UFO incident, making him the

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Speaker 3: perfect person to discuss the Rendalsham incident with us today

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Speaker 3: as we are at the forty fifth anniversary of that

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Speaker 3: incredible case.

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Speaker 4: Hey, Nick, how are you sir?

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Speaker 5: Yes, good, thank you.

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Speaker 4: Today marks the forty fifth anniversary of this very famous case.

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Speaker 4: It's one of my favorites, like Roswell. In fact, it's

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Speaker 4: often called the British Roswell. And it's incredible because we

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Speaker 4: have multiple witnesses who are of high credibility, and we

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Speaker 4: have such strong contemporaneous documentation of the event. There's some

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Speaker 4: other newer claims about this event, which we'll get into later,

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Speaker 4: but for now, Nick, would you mind walking us through

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Speaker 4: this incredible case and tell us what happened that night?

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Speaker 5: Certainly, and I think you hit the nail on the

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Speaker 5: head when you said about it being so well documented.

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Speaker 5: It's almost like the perfect storm of a UFO incident.

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Speaker 5: What would you want, Well, I'd want multiple witnesses. I'd

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Speaker 5: want them to be military witnesses, including some senior ones,

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Speaker 5: I'd want it to be over three consecutive nights, so

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Speaker 5: it's not just a one off. And I don't just

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Speaker 5: want lights in the sky, I want a landing. And

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Speaker 5: that's exactly what happened, of course, a landed craft, certainly

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Speaker 5: on the first night, to the witnesses got up close

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Speaker 5: and personal. Why this is important, of course, is that

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Speaker 5: we don't just have that eyewitness testimony, important though it is,

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Speaker 5: we have physical evidence, evidence from the ground because afterwards

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Speaker 5: they found indentations in the hard frozen ground and they

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Speaker 5: ran a Geiger counter over it. And the declassified UK

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Speaker 5: Ministry of Defense file. You know another reason why this

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Speaker 5: is a strong case. We've got that paper trail. The

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Speaker 5: declassified file states in one of the documents from Defense

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Speaker 5: intelligence staff that the radioactivity levels seemed significantly higher than

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Speaker 5: the average background. Well, there's a lot more to it.

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Speaker 5: The witnesses included the deputy based commander, Lieutenant Colonel Charles Holt.

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Speaker 5: But it is an incredibly strong case.

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Speaker 4: I've always felt that way. And the fact that he

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Speaker 4: in real time talked into a voice recorder, I mean,

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Speaker 4: when do you have that, nick, right, I mean, that's unprecedented.

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Speaker 5: Well only only in twin Peaks. I guess agent Dale

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Speaker 5: Cuper was it did that, But joking aside, Colonel Holt

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Speaker 5: was a very meticulous officer, and of course the reason

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Speaker 5: he carried this handheld cassette recorder with him was in

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Speaker 5: his role as deputy based commander, he kind of was

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Speaker 5: really responsible for just about everything. So he went around

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Speaker 5: one morning he would be with the cooks, the next

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Speaker 5: he'd be with the security police, the next he'd be

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Speaker 5: with the accountants, and every step of the way he

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Speaker 5: documented his observations and his thoughts, and if he thought

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Speaker 5: anything needed fixing or wasn't as good as it could be,

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Speaker 5: he addressed it. So he was a very good hands

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Speaker 5: on officer. And because of that, as you say, we've

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Speaker 5: got this great contemporaneous, real time audio recording of his encounter.

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Speaker 4: And you know, there's a lot of other evidence with

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Speaker 4: this physical evidence. You mentioned the depressions, the one and

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Speaker 4: a half inch deep steven inch impressions in the ground

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Speaker 4: that Peniston found. They had the radios and other electric

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Speaker 4: onyx malfunction. Animals went quiet. There's also reports of the

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Speaker 4: radar being recorded where at the base they saw objects

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Speaker 4: going sixty miles an hour or no, excuse me, sixty

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Speaker 4: miles in two to three seconds. Has that ever been released?

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Speaker 5: Well, we've got not the original radar tapes. I spoke

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Speaker 5: to a Royal Air Force officer who who was handling

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Speaker 5: radar at the time, and he said, absolutely, we had

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Speaker 5: an uncorrelated target over the base on the radar screen

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Speaker 5: at the time of the encounter. And subsequently, you know,

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Speaker 5: I don't want to sound too conspiratorial, but almost literally,

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Speaker 5: some men in black swooped in afterwards, were more like

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Speaker 5: men in gray gray suit and said we'll we'll take those.

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Speaker 5: They're needed for some sort of national security investigation. Colonel

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Speaker 5: Holt subsequently spoke to two different US Air Force officers.

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Speaker 5: These were of course US basis on military soil, which

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Speaker 5: is why you've got both British and Americans involved. But

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Speaker 5: Colonel Holt spoke to two people who also had detected

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Speaker 5: the UFO on a different radar system, actually at the

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Speaker 5: control tower at this facility. So we've got multiple radar

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Speaker 5: operators stating that this happened. But the original radar tapes

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Speaker 5: and indeed some of the log books have either been

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Speaker 5: confiscated or went missing.

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Speaker 4: These Air Force guys are shocked by this craft. What

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Speaker 4: makes it seem that this might be you know, extraterrestrial

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Speaker 4: and nature.

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Speaker 5: I think a couple of things stand out. Firstly, Jim Peniston,

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Speaker 5: one of the witnesses on the first night, was very

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Speaker 5: familiar with all NATO and WARSAW packed aircraft. It was

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Speaker 5: one of his specialisms. He could look at a flashcard

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Speaker 5: of a silhouette and tell you immediately, oh that's a

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Speaker 5: rush and Meek twenty nine or whatever it was, and

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Speaker 5: he said, look, this is like no aircraft that I've

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Speaker 5: ever seen before, and just the parameters. This thing landed briefly,

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Speaker 5: then it took off vertically, cleared the tree tops, and

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Speaker 5: accelerated a way in an instant with no sonic boom.

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Speaker 5: Of course, later on Luelizondo was to describe this behavior

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Speaker 5: as one of his so called five observables, but it

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Speaker 5: was extremely significant and mysterious at the time. No sonic boom,

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Speaker 5: and Jim Peniston just wrote in his police notebook speed impossible.

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Speaker 5: And you know, for all the people saying, and it's true, Look,

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Speaker 5: some UFO sightings do turn out to be secret prototype aircraft, drones, that.

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Speaker 4: Sort of thing.

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Speaker 5: But this is forty five years ago. If this was

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Speaker 5: a prototype in nineteen eighty, it should be operational now,

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Speaker 5: should have been operational years ago. Where is it? Where

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Speaker 5: is something that can do this? We don't have it.

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Speaker 4: I love that that corresponds with a lot of other

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Speaker 4: UFO accounts that we have this instant acceleration and that

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Speaker 4: was back in nineteen eighty, as you mentioned, and it

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Speaker 4: was just gone. So that's a really incredible part of

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Speaker 4: this story. Well, how did Jim and the others, how

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Speaker 4: was the craft described? You know, it was like smooth

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Speaker 4: glass and all that. Can you tell us exactly what

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Speaker 4: they saw?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, there are some disparities in the description, and you know,

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Speaker 5: skeptics sometimes say, oh that's suspicious. Quite the opposite. As

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Speaker 5: a government UAP investigator, I always say that if everyone

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Speaker 5: comes out with an almost identical description, it smacks to

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Speaker 5: me of collusion and the people having gotten together. You know,

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Speaker 5: any cop will tell you. I mean, it's the classic thing.

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Speaker 5: If you see a I don't know, a collision between

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Speaker 5: two cars at a busy intersection, and you interview ten

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Speaker 5: witnesses in the real world, you'll get ten rather different descriptions.

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Speaker 5: And that's kind of what happened with Rndalston. But the

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Speaker 5: broad consensus is that this thing was triangular in shape,

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Speaker 5: sort of not a flat triangle, more like a lunar

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Speaker 5: landing module something like that, about nine feet across, nine

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Speaker 5: feet tall. Strange markings on the side of this thing,

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Speaker 5: and you know, a very strange touch, almost ceramic. I

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Speaker 5: think at one point Jim Peniston said he got closest

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Speaker 5: and he touched it, which he now thinks probably wasn't

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Speaker 5: a smart move, but at the time heat of the moment.

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Speaker 4: So he felt wasn't the hieroglyphics type drawings on there.

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Speaker 4: Those were rough like sandpaper, and the rest of it

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Speaker 4: felt ceramic or glass. I believe right, that's correct.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yes, it was almost raised and he felt it

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Speaker 5: definitely reacted to his touch as well, which is interesting.

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Speaker 4: I think it's brilliant what you just bought up, because

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Speaker 4: most people don't think about that. It's right. It's actually

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Speaker 4: more suspicious if they all have the exact same story

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Speaker 4: down to a t. The fact that they have generally

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Speaker 4: the same story with slight discrepancies is just human nature.

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Speaker 4: We're all going to see things differently, and of course,

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Speaker 4: in today's world, as you know right now, what's happening

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Speaker 4: here is they're congress people that are looking at these

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Speaker 4: tapes that have been excuse me, from the bombing of

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Speaker 4: the boats in Venezuela. And you get two different accounts

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Speaker 4: from two different congressmen on each side of the aisle.

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Speaker 4: One sees guys struggling in the water and the other

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Speaker 4: sees them, you know, preparing to attack or whatever. There's

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Speaker 4: different interpretation of the same incident, right.

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Speaker 5: Yes, people see what they want to see, they see

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Speaker 5: what they expect to see, and you're right, different witnesses.

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Speaker 5: It's human nature. We look at everything whoever we are,

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Speaker 5: through the lens of our own personal language, culture, and

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Speaker 5: belief system, and so we interpret things in very different

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Speaker 5: ways sometimes.

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Speaker 4: When do you take a break there, Nick, When we

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Speaker 4: come back, we're going to ask you about the three

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Speaker 4: principal witnesses in this case, and about some of the

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Speaker 4: other witnesses who have come forward recently and have come

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Speaker 4: forward over the years that you may not have heard

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Speaker 4: about yet. And then we'll also get into the binary

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Speaker 4: code written down by Jim Peniston. You're listening to Beyond

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Speaker 4: Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast am Paranormal

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Speaker 4: podcast network. We are back on beyond contact speaking with

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Speaker 4: Nick Pope about the rundelscham forrest UFO case. Nick, so,

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Speaker 4: Jim Peniston seems to be the main, primary guy in

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Speaker 4: all of this. He's the one who actually walked up

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Speaker 4: to the craft. He's the one who actually touched the craft.

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Speaker 4: Can you tell us about who he is and his

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Speaker 4: of course, his significance in this case.

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Speaker 5: Yes, he was, you know, a sergeant and and he

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Speaker 5: therefore you know, had a lot of responsibility on him

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Speaker 5: as one of the key links between the senior officers

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Speaker 5: at the base and the more junior airmen, so really

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Speaker 5: pivotal role. He also had one of the highest security

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Speaker 5: clearances of any of these people. He was in the PRP,

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Speaker 5: the Personal Reliability programs sort of you know, extra clearances,

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Speaker 5: top secret code word, that sort of thing, you know.

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Speaker 5: Obviously officer of great integrity, good observational skills. I mentioned

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Speaker 5: earlier that aircraft recognition was one of his particular skill sets,

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Speaker 5: you know, and also not in any way a sort

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Speaker 5: of extra boastful character. I mean, for example, you know,

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Speaker 5: we'll get on, I'm sure to talk about the binary code,

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Speaker 5: but aspects of this he kept to himself for decades

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Speaker 5: after the incident, and for some significant time he stayed

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Speaker 5: in the US Air Force, and so it was okay

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Speaker 5: for him to talk about the UFO inquiry and the

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Speaker 5: sighting and things because his own deputy based commander had

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Speaker 5: seen it and was a witness too. But some of

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Speaker 5: the more far out aspects of the case he absolutely

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Speaker 5: didn't discuss because he was worried about the effect on

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Speaker 5: his career.

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Speaker 4: Which is very, very plausible and makes sense to me.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: I also like the fact that he had the presence

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Speaker 4: of mind to document much of this himself. He took

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Speaker 4: notes right in front of the craft. He drew the

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Speaker 4: hieroglyphic looking symbols that were on the craft, he wrote

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Speaker 4: those in his notebook. He also went back out and

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Speaker 4: made casts of the impressions in the earth. Isn't that right?

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Speaker 5: That's correct? Yes, And I should say I should backtrack

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Speaker 5: one step further and say he actually shot off a

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Speaker 5: role of film of the UFO, but was subsequently told

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Speaker 5: by the base processing laboratory that the film had been fog. Well,

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Speaker 5: that may or may not have been true. Perhaps it

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Speaker 5: was radiation that was We know there was radiation at

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Speaker 5: the landing site, but some people put a more sinister

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Speaker 5: explanation on that. You know, same with the radar tapes disappearing.

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Speaker 5: But yes, you're absolutely right. He then returned to the site.

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Speaker 5: He poured plaster of Paris mixture into the indentation. This

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Speaker 5: was December and England, so it was pretty cold. The

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Speaker 5: ground was frozen hard. Colonel Holt later estimated that the

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Speaker 5: object must have weighed several tons to have made these marks.

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Speaker 5: But Jim had the presence of mind to think of

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Speaker 5: pouring this plaster of Paris mix in and then when

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Speaker 5: it's set, pulling it out. So and there's actually two

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Speaker 5: of those. I think Charles Holton John Burrows may have

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Speaker 5: done something similarly. I can't quite remember the sequence, but

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Speaker 5: there's two of these things out there somewhere.

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Speaker 4: It's incredible. I love that these guys thought to do that.

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Speaker 4: I don't even think I would think to do that.

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Speaker 4: If something like that happened, you'd be so distraught over it.

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Speaker 4: What about this account later that you touched on Nick

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Speaker 4: where Jim sort of had this download. I think it

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Speaker 4: was after he touched the craft. He felt like he

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Speaker 4: saw these ones and zeros and he didn't really go

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Speaker 4: back to it, but he at one point then wrote

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Speaker 4: down all these ones and zeros in his notebook, and

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Speaker 4: then thirty years later he rediscovered them and had the

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Speaker 4: binary code looked at. Don you wanna tell us about that?

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Speaker 5: Certainly, yes, when he touched the craft, he felt a

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Speaker 5: sort of jolt and and he sort of thought, maybe

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Speaker 5: I shouldn't have done that. But a few days later

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Speaker 5: he had what he described really as a compulsion, and

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Speaker 5: he reached for his police notebook and he wrote, almost

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Speaker 5: as if he was in a trance, sixteen pages of

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Speaker 5: ones and zeros, and then promptly set the whole thing aside,

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Speaker 5: as you said, for thirty years. You know, look, if

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Speaker 5: this was a hope, he would have been shown it

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Speaker 5: from the rooftops trying to sell it. He was actually

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Speaker 5: embarrassed about it, as I said earlier, concerned about adverse

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Speaker 5: career consequences. He put it away only when he was

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Speaker 5: cooperating with one TV program in twenty ten for the

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Speaker 5: thirtieth anniversary. He was showing his sketches of the craft

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Speaker 5: that he'd made after the film ran out. He then

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Speaker 5: sketched the craft and the symbols on the side, and

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Speaker 5: Linda Malten, how was there, and she almost like literally

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Speaker 5: walked behind him, looked over his shoulder and said, Hey, Jim,

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Speaker 5: what's that? And Jim looked very embarrassed and cheapish about that.

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Speaker 5: And it took quite some coaxing to get the story out.

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Speaker 5: And he's turned down way more interviews about this, including

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Speaker 5: paid ones, than he's ever accepted. So this is not

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Speaker 5: somebody trying to sell a story. This is someone kind

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Speaker 5: of still I think, embarrassed and mystified by all this. Well,

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Speaker 5: they gave the ones and zeros to a computer programmer

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Speaker 5: years later, and he translated it at binary code. Of course,

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Speaker 5: Jim had no idea, and the message apparently was continuous

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Speaker 5: exploration for planetary advance eyes of your eyes origin year

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Speaker 5: eight thousand, one hundred, and then some latitudinal and longitudinal

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Speaker 5: coordinates that match up with some ancient sacred sites, including

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Speaker 5: the Great Pyramid at Giza, Sedona, the NASCAR lines and

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Speaker 5: so forth.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and also exploration of humanity was the other translation there.

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Speaker 4: But also it does seem to correlate. In nineteen eighty,

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Speaker 4: I don't think any of us knew what binary code

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Speaker 4: was unless you really worked in that field. Right By

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Speaker 4: twenty ten, we all knew computers were ones and zeros, right,

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Speaker 4: so that sort of lines up. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Again, he had no idea what it was. He was

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Speaker 5: embarrassed by it, slightly ashamed, I think, and just locked

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Speaker 5: it away literally for thirty years.

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Speaker 4: Are you aware of these guys like Luciano and this

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Speaker 4: Osborne golden cut, these guys who have studied this code

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Speaker 4: and they find that there's cutting edge interpretations would seem

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Speaker 4: embedded in these coordinates that we may not have known

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Speaker 4: about nineteen eighty, so they find it very credible. Have

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Speaker 4: you looked into that?

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Speaker 5: I have, yes, And in fact I've met Gary Osborne.

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Speaker 5: I met him a few times when I lived in

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Speaker 5: the UK, and so I'm aware of his work, and

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Speaker 5: Joe Luciano. I think you mentioned a couple of others

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Speaker 5: as well. I had often wondered whether there's particularly this

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Speaker 5: list of coordinates. It was almost too good to be true.

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Speaker 5: It was almost like an attention getter, and I had

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Speaker 5: often speculated, what if there's a code within the code

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Speaker 5: hidden deeper? And that's certainly what Gary Osborne believes. And

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Speaker 5: I know he's done some very complex mathematics and cryptography

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Speaker 5: and things to try and get to the bottom of that.

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Speaker 5: I've kind of lost track of where things are because

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Speaker 5: it's not my area of expertise, but I'm glad people

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Speaker 5: are doing it.

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Speaker 4: Be interesting to see what AI could do with this. Now,

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Speaker 4: maybe there's some even more computation they could dig into,

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Speaker 4: you know.

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Speaker 5: Yes, and every year, you know, one of the British

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Speaker 5: intelligence agencies GCHQ has a code breaking competition. I'd love

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Speaker 5: the GCHQ folks to take a look at this too.

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Speaker 5: Maybe they already have.

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Speaker 4: It's perfect for them. You know, it's quite remarkable to me.

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Speaker 4: It's well beyond chance that this would all line up

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Speaker 4: like that and this code would work according to these

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Speaker 4: statistical guys. Either this guy, Jim Peniston, is a hoaxer

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Speaker 4: and he knew somebody that could create that for him,

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Speaker 4: or we have quite an incredible story of information given

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Speaker 4: to him in binary code that certainly has a very

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Speaker 4: intriguing translation.

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Speaker 5: Yes, I mean to the hoaxing point. I know a

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Speaker 5: few hoaxes, and they're usually in it for either money

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Speaker 5: and or attention. Jim, as I said, has to and

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Speaker 5: down more paid interviews than he's ever accepted, and if anything,

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Speaker 5: he's shied away from the limelight. So the opposite of

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Speaker 5: what I see when I see hoaxes.

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Speaker 4: You know, of course, just because this code works, does

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Speaker 4: it make it alien necessarily, And it would also seem

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Speaker 4: odd to me, you know, maybe not that they write

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Speaker 4: in binary, but that it would translate so well into

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Speaker 4: the English language.

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Speaker 5: Well, this is where the origin year eight thousand, one

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Speaker 5: hundred comes in, because, of course Jim has come to

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Speaker 5: believe that this perhaps isn't extraterrestrial at all, but might

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Speaker 5: involve time travel, and so in our future, in say

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Speaker 5: the year eight one hundred, I'm sure the people in

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Speaker 5: the future will know what binary code is, even if

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Speaker 5: they've moved on to other things. But it will be

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Speaker 5: a matter of historical record, of course. So that's another

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Speaker 5: intriguing sign of this. And it's why it's interesting that

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Speaker 5: when you get these whistleblowers coming forward, I'm shifting a

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Speaker 5: little bit, but they use now the phrase non human intelligence,

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Speaker 5: which of course doesn't lock you into the extraterrestrial hypothesis,

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Speaker 5: leaves the door open for you into temporal ideas, into

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Speaker 5: dimensional ideas and such forth.

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Speaker 4: I love it. When we come back, we're going to

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Speaker 4: ask Nick about the other two witnesses and maybe some

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Speaker 4: other possible explanations for what happened at Rendelsham. You're listening

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Speaker 4: Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM

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Speaker 4: Paranormal podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact speaking

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Speaker 4: with Nick Pope about Rendalsham. Nick, what about John Burrows.

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Speaker 4: He's had some ongoing health issues that seem to have

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Speaker 4: come from this incident. Tell us about his rule.

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Speaker 5: Well, John Burrows, and I mean this in a nice way.

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Speaker 5: He's been described as like the bull in the China shop.

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Speaker 5: The guy is six foot at six tall, big with it,

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Speaker 5: and so he was an intimidating and commanding presence on

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Speaker 5: the base. Just what you want from somebody who's like

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Speaker 5: security police. You know. He's a very full on character

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Speaker 5: as you can imagine. And again he's straight down the line.

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Speaker 5: What you see is what you get, and you get

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Speaker 5: this big guy who was just thrown into this impossible situation.

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Speaker 5: And you're right, he and some others believe that some

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Speaker 5: health issues that they currently have. And even though we've

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Speaker 5: collaborated on a book of course, myself, John Burrows and

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Speaker 5: Jim Peniston, I need to be very very careful because

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Speaker 5: of HIPPA and other data protection personal privacy things. So

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Speaker 5: if you'll excuse me, I'm just going to be fairly

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Speaker 5: general about this. Yes, health issues that they believe result

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Speaker 5: from their close encounter with this, and actually that they

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Speaker 5: were in kind of dispute with the VA about this.

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Speaker 5: VA said, well, you know, don't be ridiculous that there's

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Speaker 5: no such thing as UAP. We're not engaging on this.

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Speaker 5: And then the British government, the Ministry of Defense, declassified

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Speaker 5: an intelligence assessment of the phenomenon as a whole that

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Speaker 5: I'd been involved in setting up, although I'd moved on

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Speaker 5: by the time it was actually done on the final

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Speaker 5: report was written up, but there's a throwaway line in there,

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Speaker 5: and I was amazed they hadn't redacted it, but it

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Speaker 5: was declassified and it said the well reported I'm paraphrasing,

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Speaker 5: of course, the well reported Randall Sham Forest incident is

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Speaker 5: a case where it might be suggested that witnesses were

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Speaker 5: exposed to UAP radiation for longer time periods than normal.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 5: I gave that to a lawyer, Pat Frasconia, who was

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Speaker 5: doing some pro bono work for some of the Rendalshim witnesses,

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Speaker 5: including John Burrows. Senator John McCain was involved. Senator John

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Speaker 5: Kyle was involved. There was one of John McCain's key aides,

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Speaker 5: Cheryl Bennett, did some amazing work on that, and I

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Speaker 5: remember discussing it with Cheryl and she said, I'd never

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Speaker 5: seen medical records classified like this before. It's crazy. But finally,

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Speaker 5: again I'm not going to go into details, of course,

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Speaker 5: but the VA confronted with that in a declassified British

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Speaker 5: intelligence assessment, had to settle in at least one and

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Speaker 5: probably some other cases too. So there's real. Like you

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Speaker 5: said right at the beginning, there's some really good, well

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Speaker 5: documented evidence here from the government's own files, British and

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Speaker 5: American incredible.

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Speaker 4: What about Colonel Charles.

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Speaker 5: Holt Halters is a fascinating character. I mean I made

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Speaker 5: that Special Agent Dale Cooper comparison because of the way

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Speaker 5: he carried this handheld audio cassette recorder with him. I

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Speaker 5: think he was the first person in his family to

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Speaker 5: go to college. He he joined the US Air Force,

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Speaker 5: rose up and retired as a full colonel. Because of

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Speaker 5: his background, he understood the ordinary men and women under

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Speaker 5: his command in a way that perhaps some of the

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Speaker 5: other officers didn't. And he was very hands on. He

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Speaker 5: always wanted to know what is everyone doing, what are

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Speaker 5: they feeling, what are they thinking? How can I make

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Speaker 5: their lives better? How can I make the base run smoother?

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Speaker 5: So he was a meticulous guy. He was very skeptical

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Speaker 5: about UFOs. When he was told on the third night

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Speaker 5: that the UFO had returned, his plan was, and again

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Speaker 5: I'm paraphrasing, to go out and debunk all this UFO nonsense,

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Speaker 5: to put the whole story to bed for once and

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Speaker 5: for all. Well, of course he didn't. He walked out

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Speaker 5: into history because he encountered it himself.

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Speaker 4: You know, there's this big issue here with him, which

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Speaker 4: is that there's been eighteen minutes of his recordings has

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Speaker 4: been released to the public, but supposedly he recorded over

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Speaker 4: five hours that night. Who's holding that back? Is that

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Speaker 4: the government? Is it him? Why aren't we hearing the

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Speaker 4: full recording?

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Speaker 5: You know, again, I'm going to have to choose my

432
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 5: words really carefully. I mean, maybe he kept some as

433
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 5: an insurance policy, if he had concerns. Maybe some of

434
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 5: it is sitting in some basement office in the Pentagon somewhere.

435
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 5: I'm hoping that with the current congressional inquiries, we haven't

436
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 5: really had Randalsham. Of course, we've been too busy concentrating

437
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 5: on things like the tic Tac incident. And I get

438
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 5: that obviously. You know, to get congressional engagement, you have

439
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 5: to really start with the US cases. But I hope

440
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 5: that some of the British cases, like Randalsham, like some

441
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 5: of the other things I've been involved with, will have

442
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 5: their day in Congress too.

443
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,199
Speaker 4: Nick, I want to ask you about these other guys.

444
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 4: There's these other purported witnesses, and even a new documentary

445
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 4: coming out which features some of those witnesses who have

446
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,120
Speaker 4: an entirely new account of the event of their own.

447
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 4: Do you have any thoughts on these guys I'm speaking about,

448
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 4: like Larry Warren and Steve Loungero. These guys are featured

449
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 4: in this new documentary called I Think It's Capel or

450
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 4: Capel Green by Johnson. Do you put any stock in

451
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 4: their claims? Have you looked at their accounts?

452
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 5: I don't know Steve, so I can't really talk about

453
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 5: his testimony. What I can say about Larry Warren, and

454
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 5: again I'll choose my words carefully, but Holt, Peniston and

455
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 5: Burrows all say that he wasn't there all say that

456
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 5: he picked up the story Sancond hand afterwards and wrote

457
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 5: himself into it. But he did play a role as

458
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 5: a whistleblower by getting the story out, but in doing

459
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 5: so used, whether with their permission or not, or a combination,

460
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 5: used other people's stories and then transposed it onto himself.

461
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 5: I know there are big problems with his testament.

462
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 4: And Peter Robins has said that as well. Peter Robin

463
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 4: had come out about Larry Rock because they wrote a

464
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 4: book as well.

465
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 5: They wrote a book together, and not only did Peter

466
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 5: Robbins disassociate himself with Larry when when the truth came out,

467
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 5: but the publishers actually withdrew the book, which is very

468
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 5: rare and to me is very telling.

469
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 4: Yes, but this new documentary, this seems like Larry's claim

470
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 4: is that his stuff happened on a third night, like

471
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 4: Jim's thing happened on the first night, and then Colonel

472
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 4: Holt went out on the second night, and then there's

473
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 4: an additional night, and there's all these other ancillary guys

474
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 4: out there. There's that Lieutenant Bonnie Tamplin I believe is

475
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 4: her name, who apparently had some incident, and Bud Stephens

476
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 4: and Adrian what's it Bustinza.

477
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, Bonnie Tamp and Adrian Bestenza, Bud Stephens. They're all

478
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 5: mentioned in the book that John Burrow's, Jim Peniston and

479
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 5: I collaborated on, the only book, by the way, Little

480
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 5: Piece of Trivia, the only UFO book ever to have

481
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 5: needed security clearance both from the US and the UK government.

482
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 4: Wow. Cool. I'm just really curious about these other ancillary guys,

483
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 4: Like you know, there seems to be these discrepancies as

484
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 4: to the dates and times and location and who was where.

485
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 4: It feels to me like this is a classic example

486
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 4: of government intentionally trying to muddy the waters and add

487
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 4: confusion to the accounts in order to discredit it. The

488
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 4: more I dig into the case, the more I feel

489
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 4: like we really need an investigator to go get all

490
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 4: these guys together, get them officially on record and or

491
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 4: in the same room, and get a clean narrative. You know,

492
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 4: we can't do it for Roswell because that was from

493
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 4: nineteen forty seven and ninety five percent of those witnesses

494
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 4: have passed, But we could do it for this case

495
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 4: because it was forty five years ago. These witnesses are

496
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 4: only sixty five seventy years old, you know, and now

497
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 4: that the UFO topic is less vilified, maybe some of

498
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 4: these witnesses would come forward. If I had the time

499
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 4: and money, I'd love to do this with my life.

500
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 4: You know. Maybe there's a guy like Nick Pope out

501
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 4: there who'd like to do another book ten years after

502
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 4: his last book. Well, we could send Don Schmid and

503
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 4: Tom Curry on it. What do you think I think.

504
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 5: I'm done with the case now. I think I've said

505
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 5: what I want to say. But I think the people,

506
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 5: of course who should be looking at it and doing

507
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 5: exactly what you just articulated is Congress. And I would

508
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 5: love to see congressional staffers call in all the witnesses,

509
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 5: interview them, get written statements, just as we've had from people,

510
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 5: for example, like David Fravor from the tic Tak incident,

511
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 5: Ryan Graves, Lou Alizondo, David Grush. Get those written statements,

512
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 5: get them onto the Congressional record, and then get them

513
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 5: under oath in public hearings to tell their story. I'd

514
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 5: love to see a Congressional hearing on the Randall shim

515
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 5: Forest incident. I think it would be great.

516
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 4: I would love it. Let's push for that. Nick, Okay,

517
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 4: when we come back, we're going to ask you about

518
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 4: some other possible explanations that may have accounted for what

519
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 4: happened at Randall Sham. You're listening to Beyond Contact on

520
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 4: the iHeart Radio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast network.

521
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 4: We are back on Beyond Contact and we're speaking with

522
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 4: Nick Pope about Rendelsham. It's fascinating case. Nick. You know,

523
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 4: there's been many people trying to poke holes that this

524
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 4: a is there, always is. All of the accounts over

525
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 4: the years have been challenged, of course, you know, I

526
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 4: do like to check off the more practical explanations at first,

527
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 4: you know, then maybe let's get to something extraordinary otherworldly.

528
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 4: From what I've seen, the plausible explanations don't seem to

529
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 4: really add up. Instead of seeing a craft shooting a

530
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 4: beam down, they just saw a lighthouse in the distance.

531
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 4: That seems so implausible and ridiculous to me, for all

532
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 4: of these military guys that work at that base to

533
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 4: make such a mistake. What do you think about those such.

534
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, they're clearly nonsense. Anyone who's actually been to the site,

535
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 5: and I've been there multiple times, both at day and

536
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 5: at night, and I've got boots on the ground, and

537
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 5: I've literally with the witnesses walked the path that they trod,

538
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 5: so there's absolutely no doubt about it. And what I

539
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 5: can tell you is is a couple of things. Firstly,

540
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 5: there was a lighthouse, but where you can see it

541
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 5: at all, it's basically a tiny pinprick of light on

542
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 5: the distant horizon. Also, anyone living at the coast, which

543
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 5: is still several miles away, doesn't even really see it

544
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 5: because there was a shield that obviously so that people

545
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 5: didn't get woken up at night. The beam rotates when

546
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 5: it shines out to sea, where it's supposed to obviously

547
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 5: you can see it. When it swings round to the land,

548
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 5: there's a shield. But as if that wasn't enough, the

549
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 5: topography of the ground is such that even if under

550
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 5: certain meteorologic conditions you get a sort of glow, even

551
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 5: that really isn't visible from much of the path that

552
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 5: these witnesses actually trod because the ground dips down. So

553
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 5: anyone who's actually spent five minutes with boots on the

554
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 5: ground as opposed to pontificating from the comfort of their armchair,

555
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 5: realizes that's nonsense straight away.

556
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 4: Okay, so you've looked at this case, you've been writing

557
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 4: a book with the mean guys in the case. Today,

558
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 4: where do you sit what's your gut feeling that you

559
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 4: think what happened here?

560
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 5: Well, it's a difficult question. I can tell you what

561
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 5: it wasn't. It wasn't some sort of prototype aircraft or drone.

562
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 5: It wasn't the lighthouse. It wasn't a bright fireball meteor.

563
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 5: It wasn't a practical joke that got.

564
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 4: Out of hand.

565
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 5: It wasn't a test of the Guard Force to see

566
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,479
Speaker 5: how they would react. It wasn't the lights from a

567
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 5: police car pulsating in the fog. It wasn't any of

568
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 5: those things. But what it was that I can't. If

569
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 5: I could, we would have concluded the book by gladly

570
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 5: telling you that we think we've solved the mystery. But

571
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 5: you know, hopefully I'm humble enough to say I'm really sorry, wrong,

572
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 5: But no, I haven't solved the mystery at all, and

573
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 5: I'm sitting here on the anniversary still scratching my head.

574
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 4: I'm afraid, you know, Jim seems to have a feeling

575
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 4: because of that translation from the binary code that perhaps

576
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 4: it's humans from the future, because it does say the

577
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 4: year eighty one hundred, so maybe that's it. He leans

578
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 4: that way, Do you lean that way or do you

579
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 4: lean perhaps off world craft?

580
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 5: You know, I don't rule any of this out. And

581
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, extraterrestrial into temporal. I mean, another

582
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 5: theory that's doing the rounds, of course, particularly with some

583
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 5: of the other witnesses coming forward, is the idea that

584
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 5: there are some sort of non human intelligence intruding from

585
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 5: other dimensions. A few years ago, I'm sure we would

586
00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 5: have all thought this was something out of the tour

587
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 5: twilight zone, you know. But now, of course theoretical physicists

588
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 5: talk quite seriously about these other dimensions, these hidden dimensions,

589
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 5: and in fact, for string theory equations to actually work,

590
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 5: you need the existence of these equations. So theoretical physicists

591
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 5: like michi Okaku, someone ten times smarter than me at least,

592
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 5: are actually looking for these so called hidden dimensions using

593
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 5: the Large Hadron Collider, the big particle accelerator run by

594
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 5: certain in Europe. I mean, this is a billion dollar

595
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 5: piece of scientific equipment. You don't just get on to

596
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 5: it to follow up some sort of hobby or a

597
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 5: little personal fancy. This is theoretical physics cutting edge. This

598
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 5: is some of the smartest people on the planet saying

599
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 5: other dimensions, hidden dimensions may be real. So who's to

600
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 5: rule out the idea that something might come through occasionally?

601
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 4: Listen, that's so far above me exactly, and I just wonder,

602
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 4: you know, imagine even being able to transverse them. It's

603
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 4: one thing to believe that they exist. It's another that

604
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 4: they could build a craft that could go from one

605
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 4: to another. That's wow, another level. You know. Nick, you

606
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 4: mentioned that we're having these hearings in the US, of course,

607
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 4: which I think is fantastic. It gets the word outs there,

608
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 4: it adds credibility to the topic. It's nice to see

609
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 4: Congress taking it seriously. Do you have anything like this

610
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:31,959
Speaker 4: happening in the UK.

611
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 5: No, we don't. We have a few members of Parliament

612
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 5: who are interested in this, but really to get the

613
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 5: sort of engagement that we have in the United States,

614
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 5: it's going to need the Defense Committee in British Parliament

615
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 5: to take an active interest in this and to do

616
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 5: a proactive investigation into it. Now. I have had some

617
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 5: discussions with at least one I think, you know, some

618
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 5: probably some more members of Parliament have bouilt this. But

619
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 5: you know, again, someone's got to go first, someone's got

620
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 5: to put their head over the parapet And there is

621
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 5: still some stigma in the UK, not so much in

622
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 5: the US, but a sadly at the moment it doesn't

623
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 5: read across. I hope that will change, but at present

624
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 5: it's rather behind where we are in the US.

625
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 4: I'm somebody who does not see disclosure coming, not official,

626
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 4: big D government disclosure anyway. I just don't think that's

627
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 4: going to happen in the next hundreds of years. You've

628
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 4: worked in the government, you've been studying this stuff longer

629
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 4: than I have. What is your sense about that?

630
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 5: I tend to agree with you. If disclosure was easy,

631
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 5: we'd have done it by now, right, and yet we

632
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 5: haven't had it nearly eighty years into the modern UFO phenomenon.

633
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 5: So if disclosure isn't easy, because we'd have done it,

634
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 5: you know, we know that it's hard, and so generalizes

635
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 5: what makes it hard to disclose? And the answer may

636
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:06,919
Speaker 5: be all sorts of things. I mean, it may be

637
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 5: you know, you look around the world and you look

638
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 5: at the deaths, the wars, the hatred's caused, for example,

639
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 5: by differences over religion. And then you think what would

640
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 5: happen if you threw an extraterrestrial or non human intelligence

641
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 5: presence into that already explosive mix. So maybe the authorities

642
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 5: are wary of that. But maybe, as I've sometimes speculated,

643
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 5: In fact, I think I gave a presentation at Contact

644
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 5: in the Desert along these lines a year or two ago.

645
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 5: Maybe there's something about the phenomenon in and of itself,

646
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 5: which I term a secret too terrible to be told.

647
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 5: That is the impediment to disclosure. But like I say,

648
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 5: if it was easy, we'd have done it. So therefore

649
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 5: we conclude that it must be very hard, and there

650
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 5: must be some very good reason, not just secrecy for

651
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 5: secret's sake, because things leaking out all the time, and

652
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 5: people blow the whistle, and people are blowing the whistle,

653
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 5: but there's still no smoking gun. We're still nowhere near

654
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 5: I think, you know, overal officed live my fellow Americans,

655
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 5: people of the world. We are not alone. That's disclosure,

656
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 5: and I'm not sure we're getting that yet.

657
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think we're going to get it either,

658
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 4: But I do like that idea that maybe there is

659
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 4: something so categorically horrifying that, you know, maybe best that

660
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 4: this doesn't get out. You know, we just don't know

661
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 4: what's being hidden. But of course there's a lot of

662
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,240
Speaker 4: speculation that it's even things like free energy, for example,

663
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 4: and that that's part of the reason that they you know,

664
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 4: that would change the world immediately. You know, most of

665
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 4: these wars are over resources, so maybe it ties to that.

666
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 5: You know, we don't know, yes, and also the fact

667
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 5: that almost any advanced technology, particularly that which involves high energy,

668
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 5: can be weaponized.

669
00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 4: Right. You know, supposedly these different countries have obtained craft

670
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 4: as well, and we wouldn't want to show our hand

671
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,760
Speaker 4: to them what we've uncovered. Maybe they have uncovered something different.

672
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 4: You know, there's a lot of legitimately good reasons to

673
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 4: keep this close to the vest. It would be nice

674
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 4: if they at least acknowledged that it was in fact real.

675
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 4: If it is in.

676
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 5: Fact, yeah, maybe you could. Sure, maybe you could ring

677
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 5: fence the tech and say we're not telling you anything

678
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 5: about that, but hey, just say, you know, there's a

679
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 5: non human presence. But I think I like the analogy

680
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 5: of this being a high stakes poker game where the

681
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 5: United States is alongside say, China and Russia and maybe

682
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 5: some others too, And of course the last thing you

683
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 5: ever want to do is show what cards you're holding.

684
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 4: Exactly Well, Nick, thank you so much. I really appreciate

685
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 4: all your insights. Are always great to see you. We

686
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 4: see you every year at Contact in the Desert. You've

687
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 4: been a staple there and we appreciate it.

688
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 5: Thank you very much. I've enjoyed this chat.

689
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 4: You can find Nick at Nick Pope dot net. You

690
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 4: can find me on Twitter and Instagram at CID Underscore

691
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 4: Captain Ron acted by checking out Contactoddesert dot com. Stay

692
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 4: open minded and rational as we explore the unknown right here.

693
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 4: iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast am Paranormal Podcast Network.

694
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Ghost

695
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 1: Day and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out

696
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 1: all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going

697
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:36,040
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