1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: The Michael Barry, Joe Jack Abramoff. 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, how are you. 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: I'm good, Thanks for being our guest. 4 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:08,800 Speaker 2: It's a pleasure, thank you. 5 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: So how long were you in jail? 6 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: Forty three months over three and a half years. 7 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: Did you ever expect you'd be in jail? 8 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 2: Of course not absolutely not. 9 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: What was the worst thing about. 10 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 2: It being away from my family? 11 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: Is jail as broken as the rest of governmental institutions? 12 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, it's the leader in broken government institutions. 13 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: Does anybody get better from going to jail? 14 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 2: No, it's a storage facility. There's no effort to make 15 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 2: them better. 16 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: I for one, have always had this opinion. We won't 17 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: talk about prison the whole time, but I for one 18 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: have this opinion. The whole you know, jokes about rape 19 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: in prison, and that whole thing is that jail should 20 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: be for rehabilitating and punishing and the whole concept of 21 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: rape only makes people worse. But how bad a problem 22 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: is it? 23 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 2: Well, where I was, it wasn't a problem at all. 24 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 2: I was non violent prison. But it is a problem 25 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 2: in other ps, and uh, you know, they try to 26 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 2: do stuff about it, but you're dealing with a bunch 27 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 2: of very you know, very sick guys. 28 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: When you tell your when you tell your your children 29 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: daddy's daddy went to prison, what do you tell him 30 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: what was for? 31 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 2: Well? I mean my kids know my situation pretty well. 32 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 2: I tell them the details. You know. I went for 33 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 2: three specific reasons. One I didn't reveal something to my 34 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 2: clients I should have. Two, I uh didn't. I had 35 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 2: money directed to charities we supported instead of to me, 36 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 2: and that's tax evasion. In three, I lavished on congressman 37 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 2: things that I should never have done. 38 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: When you look back, if you're telling a young person, hey, 39 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:40,839 Speaker 1: look I was I was making good money. You didn't 40 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: need to do that. I mean, you were fabulously wealthy, 41 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: you were incredibly successful, and you could have survived without that. 42 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: When you look back on where you went wrong, why. 43 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 2: Well, I think the problem was that I didn't as 44 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 2: I was doing it, really understand where I was at. 45 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 2: I guess sort of was one degree off in my 46 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: sex stint as I started my voyage, and by the 47 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 2: time I looked up, I was lost, and I was 48 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 2: hyper competitive. I took all the fights to the extreme. 49 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: I pushed every envelope, and you know, I rationalized a 50 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 2: way and until it was too late. 51 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: You've written a book Capital Punishment, The Hard Truth about 52 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: Washington Corruption from America's most notorious lobbyist, Jack Abramoff. What 53 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: do you hope to accomplish? Writ in this book? 54 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 2: Well, what I want to do is two things. Number One, 55 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: I want to inform America about what actually happens in Washington. 56 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: Why is their government dysfunctional? What's going on here? And 57 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: I think most Americans are, you know, they instinctively think 58 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 2: something's wrong. But what I point out is what goes 59 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 2: on behind the doors. And people who read the book 60 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 2: are shocked and angry and scared about what they're what 61 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 2: they're reading, and I want them to be for the 62 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 2: hope that maybe people will rise up and undo the 63 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 2: kind of system that undid me and that I helped 64 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: lead unfortunately. And so I go in the book and 65 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 2: I offer some suggestions as to what people can do, 66 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: or what people can make their legislators do, to clean 67 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 2: up the corruption that's in this town that I unfortunately 68 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: played so well. 69 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 1: You based a lot of your lobbying around leisure activities 70 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: like playing golf, a sport I've just taken up. And 71 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,679 Speaker 1: much of my audience either lives in what used to 72 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: be Tom DeLay's district or. Obviously they know who Tom 73 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: Delay is and many of them personally know him. Is 74 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: it true you played in a million dollar golf match 75 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: in Russia with Tom Delay? 76 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It didn't start off as a million 77 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 2: dollar golf match. One of my clients Russian, who was 78 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 2: a fine fellow, a Christian and a free marketeer and 79 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: pro us and pro Ronald Reagan. Love Ronald Reagan. He 80 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 2: loved Tom Delay. He thought he was just an absolute 81 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 2: champion of freedom, and wanted to give money to him politically, 82 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 2: and I kept telling the guy, you can't do it. 83 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 2: You're a Russian, you can't make a political contribution. So 84 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 2: we were going over there on a trip. Tom was 85 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: trying to help the persecuted Christians over there in Russia. 86 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 2: And after a bunch of meetings, my client said, hey, 87 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: let's go play golf. And apparently he had spent nine 88 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: months learning how to play golf in a warehouse in Russia. 89 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 2: And we get to a golf course and we play, 90 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: and he wants to bet, even though he stinks, and 91 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: Tom's not a bad golfer, and so he's betting and 92 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 2: eventually he's losing every hole, and he finally turns around 93 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: and says, we're going to bet a million dollars on 94 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 2: this hole. And we looked at each other, wady, out 95 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 2: of your mind. We don't have a million dollars. He said, 96 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: well do it anyway. So we did, you know, just 97 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 2: as a lark. He lost, of course, and then he 98 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: turned to Tom and said, Tom Jack won't let me 99 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 2: give you a political contribution. So you've just beat me 100 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 2: for a million dollars in a golf game, and they're 101 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: now I'm going to give you a million dollars now. 102 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,119 Speaker 2: I said, look, you can't do that. That's not legal either. 103 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: And so unfortunately, the poor guy wound up not being 104 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: able to give the payoffs the million dollar loss. He 105 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: just want up eventually contributing it to a foundation and 106 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 2: things like that. But so that was our million dollar 107 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 2: golf bet in Russia? 108 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: Was Tom dela crup? 109 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 2: I don't think so. 110 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: Now, how would you describe Tom de Lay? 111 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 2: I consider Tom Delay an honorable, decent human being. I 112 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 2: consider him to be a passionate religious Christian. I consider 113 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: him to be an absolute conservative and somebody who walks 114 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: the walk and just doesn't talk. Yet, as you probably know, 115 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 2: he raises foster kids in his own home, and he'd 116 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 2: never got involved in you know, kind of the hanky 117 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 2: panky that a lot of these fellows do in Washington. 118 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 2: And I consider him to be a fine man. 119 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: The book is Capital Punishment, the hard truth about Washington 120 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: corruption from America's most notorious lobbyist. Some people would say, well, 121 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: now this guy's going to make money off off of 122 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: all his crimes. 123 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 2: What do you say to that, Well, considering that forty 124 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: four million dollars comes out for restitution, I'd have to 125 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 2: make an awful lot of money before that's that's the case. 126 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 2: The truth that I didn't do the book to make money. 127 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 2: I hope I'll make money eventually, of course, who doesn't 128 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 2: want to make money, But most of the money will 129 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 2: go to restitution and paying other debts and things like that. 130 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 2: And I didn't do it, frankly, on the financial basis 131 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: because I could do and trying to do other things 132 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 2: to make real money. You don't make a lot of 133 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 2: money on books these days. I did it because the 134 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 2: story has got to get out. People have got to 135 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 2: be aware of what goes on in their government, and 136 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: people have got to get active to try to stop 137 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: it or our republic is doomed. 138 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: Jack, Can you hold with me for just a moment? 139 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: Sure? 140 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: Our guest is Jack Abramoff. The book is Capital Punishment. 141 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: The hard truth about Washington Corruption from America's most notorious lobbyists. 142 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: Do we even need lobbyists? In some of the worst 143 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: stories of Jack Abramoff's career coming up? Stay tuned. Our 144 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: guest is Jack Abramoff, Notorious his words, lobbyists. The book 145 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: is Capital Punishment, The hard truth about Washington Corruption from 146 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: America's most notorious lobbyists. Will you ever pay back to 147 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: forty three million dollars? 148 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 2: Well, I go to work hard to try, you know, 149 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 2: I don't know. It depends how how my portions go. 150 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: It's a lot of money. 151 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: Now, is this money that you were paid that they 152 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: say you falsely billed? 153 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 2: It's a combination of things. What I pled to, by 154 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 2: the way, in terms of dealing with my clients, was 155 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 2: that I did and inform my clients that I was 156 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: sharing in money of the companies that I recommended to them, 157 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 2: that I worked with to defeat some of the attacks 158 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 2: on them in their own states. And so part of it. 159 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: Is that how much of so you over the years, 160 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: made forty three million dollars. 161 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I made a lot of money. We build I 162 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: guess not just to me, but we build a clients 163 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 2: about eighty north of about eighty million dollars. We sat 164 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 2: down when this all happened to try to figure out, well, 165 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 2: what kind of value did we provide in that atmosphere? 166 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 2: And it wound up being about six plus billion dollars. So, 167 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 2: you know, our clients used to refer to us as 168 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 2: the Indian tribal clients with the casinos used to say 169 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 2: we were the best slot machine they had. But you 170 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 2: know the truth is that in that world, I guess 171 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: I was pretty proficient and pretty aggressive and successful. My 172 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: problem is I shouldn't have been in that world. 173 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: What Jack Abramoff is our guest probably the most. I 174 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: was reading through the emails during the break, and there 175 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: were a number of refer insist to the black hat 176 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: you wore coming out of the courthouse on the day 177 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: of your guilty plea, and people making the note that 178 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: in American culture of the black hat is the sign 179 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: of the villain. Did you realize how that was going 180 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: to look? 181 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: No, what happened was I guess I had the only 182 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 2: political wardrobe malfunction or something. I just I took off 183 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 2: in the morning from my house. It was dark and 184 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 2: it was raining, and I wanted to get to the 185 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 2: to the court before the press did, because the press 186 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 2: would set up these gauntlets and you know, just hurl 187 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 2: invectives at me, and it was horrible. So I got 188 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: there early. I was running out. It was raining. I 189 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 2: grabbed my raincoat, I grabbed the hat and got in 190 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 2: the car and drove up there, went into the court 191 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 2: and I didn't think much about it and put it 192 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: down and went into the court did the business we 193 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: had to do, which was a horrible day for me. 194 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 2: I pled guilty that day and I put it back on, 195 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 2: walked outside, and I didn't realize until the media started 196 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 2: screaming at me that there was a problem, and they 197 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 2: thought I was a combination. I guess a boris bad 198 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 2: enough or and a gangster. So it was not good. 199 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 1: Jack Abram Moss, our guest, you represented some pretty unpopular causes, 200 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: like sweatshops in the American Pacific territories. Is it generally 201 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 1: the case as a lobbyist that you get paid more 202 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: for causes that are so unpopular? 203 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 2: Well, let me let me back up for a second. 204 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: The Marianna's Islands has been a subject to a real 205 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: campaign of vilification those factories out there. Before we took 206 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: the client, I was at a firm called Preston Gates 207 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 2: at the time. One of the senior partners was a 208 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 2: Liberal Democratic former congressman named Lloyd Meads, who was on 209 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 2: the Labor Committee. We went out to the island and 210 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 2: inspected the factories and the whole place, spent a few days. 211 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 2: Lloyd was, I guess, a former inspector of factories, and 212 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 2: went around and saw what was going on and gave 213 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 2: it a check. He checked it off and thought that 214 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 2: it was pretty good. And he also what was more 215 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 2: important was that the government there was gone after abuse. 216 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 2: It wasn't sweatshops. In fact, he said he had never 217 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 2: seen factories as clean, as bright, as air conditioned as 218 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 2: these places were. But they were making garments at a 219 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: lower than federal minimum wage. They had when they joined 220 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: the United States the Marianas Islands. We granted them the 221 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 2: ability to set their own local minimum wage and to 222 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 2: have control of their immigration. Well, all of a sudden, 223 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 2: the Unions and some of the Democrats didn't want to 224 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 2: have that anymore, because they saw they were making shirts 225 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 2: and making something of themselves, they started attacking them. And 226 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 2: the attacks were basically saying that they were sweatshops and whatnot. 227 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 2: To prove them wrong and basically to overcome this, the 228 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: government hosted and I had my suggestion, by the way, 229 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 2: getting one hundred and fifty congressional offices to send their 230 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 2: people out to inspect the island as well, and we 231 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 2: were to overcome that. So I just wanted to weigh 232 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: in on that. There are a lot of accusations about me. 233 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: I mean, people in the media wrote ten thousand stories 234 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 2: about me. Between the time that started and before I 235 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: went to prison, I sat quietly because frankly, I didn't 236 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: know what this was all about. I wanted to try 237 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 2: to get through it, and you know, I didn't want 238 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 2: to make matters worse. But they got the paint a 239 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 2: picture of me that was a little unfair, and that's 240 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 2: one of the things in the book I try to 241 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: do as well, to say exactly what it was with 242 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 2: all the warts. By the way, I admit what I 243 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 2: did wrong and I wasn't perfect, but I try to 244 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 2: paint that in the book. 245 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: Book is Capital Punishment. The hard truth about Washington corruption 246 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: from America's most notorious lobbyist, Jack Abramoth. When you look back, well, 247 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: i'll tell you what paint the picture for us. If 248 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 1: you would take a couple of minutes, sure and explain 249 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: the most if you want to call it corrupt or 250 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: the most inappropriate. If the public saw what you and 251 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: obviously others were doing, how does that process work? I mean, 252 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: how open and brazen is it? 253 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 2: Well? I think I think it's a good question, and 254 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: I think people's got to keep in mind the following. 255 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 2: The problem is not where people break the law. I 256 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 2: pushed the envelope and I went over the line. I 257 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 2: did break the law. I lost sight of where the 258 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 2: line in the sand, even though these are murky lines 259 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 2: in this by the way, in this business, where I 260 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: have lost sight of where that is and I went 261 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 2: over it. The problem isn't that there aren't a lot 262 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 2: of Jack abram Offs or people who are pushing that far. 263 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 2: The problem is what's legal in Washington, and the process 264 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 2: basically is such as follows. If you're a lobbyist, you 265 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 2: know some congressman, you know some staff, You've probably know 266 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: a lot of them. You've probably worked on Capitol Hill, 267 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 2: which is one of the things I get to in 268 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: my book that has to be stopped. You've come off 269 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 2: Capitol Hill, you cashed in your public service, and you're 270 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 2: now a lobbyist. Now you've got friends over there, and 271 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: you're going to whine them and dine them and take 272 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 2: them to ballgames and spend play golf with them and 273 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 2: travel with them, and you spend a lot of face 274 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 2: time with him. And that's called access. That's the first 275 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 2: important thing for a lobbyist. Access, because if you can't 276 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 2: get to the decision maker, it doesn't matter what your 277 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 2: argument is. That gone beyond the access basically is the 278 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 2: lobbyist has to convince a legislator to do something. So 279 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 2: sometimes the lobbyist convinces him by raising a lot of 280 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 2: money and just say, hey, hold your note and just 281 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: do it. A lot of times the lobbyists and we 282 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 2: often would do this. We give them the compelling reasons 283 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 2: why philosophically and politically it would be something okay for 284 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 2: them to do if it wasn't related to their district. 285 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 2: But the access is everything, and that's what the average 286 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 2: citizen doesn't have, and that's what the lobbyist does have. 287 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: Who is the most ethical member of Congress that you 288 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: ever dealt with? Under no circumstances, would they change for 289 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: the most principled position? 290 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 2: You know, it's hard to it's hard to think of, 291 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 2: you know, the most ethical. There are guys. I can 292 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 2: think of Dana Rabacher in California. He wouldn't under any 293 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 2: circumstances do something he didn't believe in. But are there 294 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 2: are a lot of guys like that. That isn't necessarily 295 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 2: the problem that people are switching their positions they hold 296 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 2: deer and things like that, because the truth is, lobbyists 297 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 2: are able to couch issues and others. By the way, 298 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: all the special interests are able to couch their issues 299 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 2: in ways that they seem like the lot the legislator 300 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 2: should support them. But unfortunately, because of the way the 301 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 2: government has gotten out of control, the federal government has 302 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,079 Speaker 2: grown over the years, all of these things add up 303 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 2: to a real problem for us. 304 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: There have been over the last couple of years a 305 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: number of congressional investigations by Democrats and now Republicans of 306 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: members of the Black Congressional Caucus. Did you find members 307 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: of the Black Congressional Caucus to be more corrupt than 308 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: the other members. 309 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 2: No, I really didn't. I didn't have a lot of dealings, 310 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 2: you know, with the Black Caucus. I was a Republican, 311 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 2: and I only really double with the Republicans. I had 312 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 2: people work for me who did. But frankly, I don't 313 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: remember anything more or less in terms of the Black 314 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 2: Caucus or any of the other caucuses. Unfortunately, the problem 315 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 2: is so pervasive that the question is who isn't doing 316 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 2: this kind of thing. 317 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: Our guest is Jack Abramoff. The book is Capital Punishment, 318 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: The heart Truth about Washington Corruption from America's most notorious lobbyists. 319 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: Jack tell me this, as long as we're going to 320 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: have lobbyists, it strikes me that we're going to have 321 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: some level of corruption because there is competition built in, 322 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: there is a desire to serve your client. There are 323 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: some clients who win out of government contracts or are 324 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: favorable regulation. And if the public's not going to have 325 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: their own lobbist, it strikes me, if we're going to 326 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: have lobbyists, we're going to have corruption. 327 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 2: Well, I think that's exactly right. The big underlying boogeyman here, 328 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 2: the eight hundred pound elephant of the room that nobody's 329 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 2: going to discuss is the fact that the government is 330 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 2: too big. The federal government is in too many things. 331 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 2: There are too many reasons to have lobbyists. You have 332 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 2: twenty thousand lobbyists running around because the governments in abottom 333 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of things that they shouldn't be involved in. Now, 334 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 2: to get rid of the lobbyists ultimately, or at least 335 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 2: to pair them back, you've got to get the government 336 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 2: back into this constitutional framework, the box that the founders 337 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 2: gave it to us in. Unfortunately, that's a long way away. 338 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 2: So in the interim, what I try to do is 339 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 2: lay out some steps that in the means we can 340 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: do to at least reduce the kind of corruption and 341 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 2: the kind of connection between those lobbyists and these congressmen 342 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 2: and the staff that exists right now. 343 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: And what would that be. 344 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 2: Well, I think there's several steps. First of all, the 345 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 2: revolving door between public service and basically the congressmen are 346 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 2: working on the hill. 347 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: The publisher would tell you that at that point you're 348 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: supposed to say, well, as I said in the book, 349 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: you're not good at this yet. 350 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 2: Well, I'm just out of prison. I don't know. In prison, 351 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 2: didn't say that stuff, and they're listening into the publicist. 352 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: So I'm gonna I'm going to get it. 353 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: Get You're supposed to start every answer with That's what 354 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: Glenn Beck says well, as I lay. 355 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 2: Out in the book on page nine hundred. No, I'm 356 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: kidding the yes by the way, as I do say 357 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: in the book, and then this is the kind of 358 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: stuff I do write about, that the revolving door between 359 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 2: public service and cashing in has got to end. It's 360 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 2: got to be shut, not shut for two years or 361 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 2: delayed for two years as they currently do, but rather 362 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 2: shut permanent. That if you work on the hill or 363 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 2: you're a member of Congress, you are done, You finish 364 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 2: your service, you go home. You don't cash in and 365 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 2: hang around and become a lobbyist and make money off 366 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 2: your public service. It's number one, number two, the tie 367 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 2: between money and these congressmen and their staff has got 368 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 2: to be cut off on the other side, meaning if 369 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 2: you're a lobbyist or you're somebody's getting a government grant 370 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 2: or a government contract or government large ass, you're basically 371 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 2: feeding at the trough of the American people. You do 372 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 2: not give money politically federally. You can't buy with your 373 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 2: money a continuation of this feeding frenzy. So you can't 374 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 2: give money. You make a choice. You either want to 375 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 2: be a lobbyist and get money out of the trough, 376 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 2: or you contribute politically. Number one and number two. If 377 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 2: you're one of those folks, you can't give anything to 378 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 2: a staffer or to a congressman at all. Not a meal, 379 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 2: not a golf game, not a ticket to anything, not 380 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 2: a glass of water. Nothing that's going to create that deadness. 381 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 2: I further write in the book that the congressmen themselves 382 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 2: have got to be term limited. I was never for this, 383 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 2: by the way, when I was a lobbyist, but I've 384 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 2: got to tell you, they don't see how you do it. 385 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 2: Unless you do this. These people who sit there for decades, 386 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 2: they eventually become corrupt. You can't but but become corrupt. 387 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 2: What the founders wanted is citizen legislators, not permanent LEGISLI But. 388 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: The argument Jack Jack Abramoff is our guest. The argument 389 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: against term limits is that then you increase the power 390 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: of the bureaucracy. At least the public official can be 391 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: thrown out by the public. We can't affect the bureaucracy. 392 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, this is all in tandem with 393 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 2: the bureaucracy being carried back. I also want serious civil 394 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: service reform where you don't have people who are sitting 395 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 2: in the buiocracy for years. Either. We've got to have 396 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 2: fresh blood coming in and out of Washington, fresh ideas, 397 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 2: people who are going to do public service and get 398 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 2: out this notion of staying there for your life and 399 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 2: basically poppiting off of whether in the government or out 400 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,959 Speaker 2: of the government. Government. That is something that we've got 401 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 2: to get beyond. And the final thing I talk about, 402 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 2: Actually I talk about a few more things in the book, 403 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: but one of the big things I talk about is 404 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 2: that the laws that the members of Congress make and 405 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 2: they pass have got to be applicable to them. Recently, 406 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 2: it's come out and I talked about it as well 407 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 2: in some of the interviews I've done. How these members 408 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 2: of Congress and their staff have insider information about what's 409 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 2: going on and they're able to trade in stocks. Now, 410 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 2: if I did that, they'd send me back to prison. 411 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: They do it with impunity. 412 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. The Nancy Pelosi case visa she bought 413 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 1: a stock five thousand shares at forty four bucks a share, 414 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: and that it jumped up to sixty four two days 415 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: later while they were under congressional review. Yep, how do 416 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: you make a living now? 417 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,479 Speaker 2: Well, I'm slowly trying to get some businesses going, and 418 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 2: I've got this the book, started to make speeches and 419 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 2: things like that. I mean, you know, it's a struggle. Look, 420 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 2: I got to tell you, if you're a fella, a 421 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 2: former felon, you're never a former fella, You're always a fellon. Really, 422 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 2: it's tough. It's tough. A lot of people are in 423 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 2: my position, and you know, we just struggle and just 424 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 2: try to do it we can. I have some projects, 425 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 2: other projects that are television related, and some internet stuff 426 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 2: that I'm working on. I've got a website called abramov 427 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 2: dot com where people can communicate with me and share 428 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 2: ideas and buy the book, and you know, I'm hoping, 429 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 2: you know, to develop some things. 430 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: Were you the worst most corrupt lobbyist in DC in 431 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: your heyday? 432 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 2: I doubt it. I doubt it. I mean, they're they're 433 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 2: probably some pretty nefarious characters. Look, I thought I was 434 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 2: doing good, Okay, I didn't think I was hurting people 435 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 2: I had a bunch of clients whose causes I supported. 436 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 2: I was raising a lot of money for them from them, 437 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 2: for the people I supported, the Republicans and the Conservatives. 438 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 2: I won great victories for them so that they got 439 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 2: a lot of benefit. I took that money. My wife 440 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 2: and I gave eighty percent of the money we made 441 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 2: away to charity and communal causes. I didn't think anything 442 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 2: was wrong. The truth is again, as I said, I 443 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 2: was off on a voyage. I was off by one percent, 444 00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 2: but by the time I was done, I was on 445 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 2: another and unfortunately I broke the law. I did do it. 446 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 2: I'm sorry I did it. I got punished tremendously. I've 447 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 2: been stripped of everything I own. I got thrown into prison, 448 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 2: and my family has suffered as well. And you know, 449 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 2: God willing, we'll be able to come back somehow and 450 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 2: do something. 451 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 1: Jack Abramoff, as our guest, you used harsh and derogatory 452 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: language against your clients in emails. Obviously some things you 453 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 1: would have never wanted them to see. Let's focus on 454 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: the Indian tribes for a moment. I see the Department 455 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: of Interior's treatment of the Indian tribes as something of 456 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,360 Speaker 1: a cabal. The casino license is the opportunity to print money. 457 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: It seems as if we've set aside this group of 458 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: people and said, here, you can make an insane amount 459 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: of money that no one else can, and we're going 460 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: to create barriers around you. I don't know if that 461 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: was the reason you seem to disdain them, or if 462 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: you didn't really mean what you were saying, But how 463 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 1: would you respond to that now that you're not their lobbies? 464 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 2: Well, look, I said, eight hundred and fifty thousand emails, okay, 465 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 2: And the course I'm less than decade that I was 466 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 2: a lobbyist. In those emails, every thought that coursed through 467 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 2: my head, I put an email, I'm the poster child, 468 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 2: or don't write in an email those things you don't 469 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 2: want to read on the front page of the Washington Post, because, frankly, unfortunately, 470 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 2: hundreds of times I got to read my emails on 471 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 2: the front page of the Washington Post. Now, among those 472 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: eight hundred and fifty thousand emails which were subpoenaed by 473 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 2: Senator McCain and his staff, they went through and they 474 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 2: called out about fifty They were pretty rough, and I'm 475 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 2: embarrassed by it. And I'm sick that I did it. 476 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 2: And some of them were jocular, some of them were angry, 477 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 2: some of them were passionate. I wrote emails about the clients, frankly, 478 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 2: whom I loved. Sometimes I was upset they didn't do 479 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 2: what I told them to do. But you know, if 480 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 2: you look at my emails, unfortunately there's some emails about 481 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 2: my own kids. To say the same things to my wife, Geez, 482 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 2: what's wrong with this marian? Why doesn't he pick up 483 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 2: his clothes on the floor? That kind of thing. I 484 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: was that kind of passionate person. I regret that I was. 485 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 2: I put it in an email. Didn't reflect how I 486 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 2: felt about my clients. The other eight hundred and fifty 487 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 2: thousand certainly had a lot different message. But unfortunately, when 488 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 2: my scandal became public, they wanted me to be a villain, 489 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 2: and they had, unfortunately, in my own hand, plenty of 490 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 2: ample emails to put out there. 491 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: The book is Capital Punishment, The hard truth about Washington 492 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: Corruption from America's most notorious lobbyist, Jack Abramoff. Thanks for 493 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: being our guest. 494 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 2: Thanks so much. 495 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: If you liked the Michael Berry Show and podcast, please 496 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: tell one friend and if you're so inclined write a 497 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: nice review of our podcast. Comments, suggestions, questions, and interest 498 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: in being a corporate sponsor and partner can be communicated 499 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: directly to the show at our email address, Michael at 500 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: Michael Berryshow dot com, or simply by clicking on our website, 501 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: Michael Berryshow dot com. The Michael Berry Show and Podcast 502 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: is produced by Ramon Roeblis, the King of Ding. Executive 503 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 1: producer is Chad Knakanishi. Jim Mudd is the creative director. 504 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: Voices Jingles, Tomfoolery and Shenanigans are provided by Chance McLean. 505 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: Director of Research is Sandy Peterson. Emily Bull is our 506 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: assistant listener and superfan. Contributions are appreciated and often incorporated 507 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: into our production. Where possible, we give credit, where not, 508 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: we take all the credit for ourselves. God bless the 509 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: memory of Rush Limbaugh. Long live Elvis, be a simple 510 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: man like Leonard Skinnard told you, and God bless America. Finally, 511 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: if you know a veteran suffering from PTSD, call Camp 512 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: Hope at eight seven seven seven one seven PTSD and 513 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: a combat veteran will answer the phone to provide free counseling. 514 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: M