WEBVTT - #469 Jason Flom with Calvin Buari 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:03.720 I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:05.360 even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.960 I was brought up like cops are the good guys. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.640 I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:17.320 do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like everything. 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:22.400 This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:23.200 know I'm innocent. 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:24.880 I know I had nothing to do with this. 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:27.240 How is this possible? 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.720 I grew up trusting systems. I've grew up believing that 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:34.280 every human being should do the right thing. And that's why, 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:36.200 even though I knew I was dealing with corrough people, 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.360 I wasn't going to break anyone to get me out 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:41.120 of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:42.840 I break my way out of my wife's death. 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.479 I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.159 prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:51.839 Our system. 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:53.519 Since I've been out ten years, it has come a 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:55.480 little ways, but it's still broken. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.520 I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to it. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:19.600 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction with 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:25.480 Jason Flamm. Today's episode features two extraordinary people. Steve Fishman, 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.640 the journalist who was the host of Empire on Blood, 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:32.600 which played a role in the ultimate reversal of the 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:36.560 conviction of our other guest who was in prison for 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.480 over two decades for a double murder he didn't commit. 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:41.560 And that's Calvin Bari. 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:46.319 Calvin Buari was convicted of a double homicide in nineteen 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:49.280 ninety five, but maintained he was innocent for more than 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:52.600 two decades. He was released last year after his conviction 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:56.760 was overturned, but prosecutors threatened to retry the case until 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:57.440 last week. 0:01:58.240 --> 0:01:59.680 So Steve, welcome to the show. 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:01.080 Thanks for having me. 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.280 Jason and Calvin Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:06.320 Thank you. Thanks for having me. Jason. 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.280 Let's get right into the story, because your story has 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:13.400 more twists and turns than a Hollywood movie. I would say, 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:15.720 let's go back to the beginning. Calvin, where did you 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:16.240 grow up? 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.160 I grew up in the Bronx. I grew up at 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:22.680 nine to twenty two East to eleventh Street in the 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:25.960 northeast section of the Bronx Wakefield area. 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:28.320 And what was that like? What was your childhood like, 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:30.440 did you have brothers, sisters? Were your parents at home? 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.960 Was it a tough neighborhood? What was the situation growing up? 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:38.280 That's where I was born, But I was moving around. 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:40.680 Where was that At one time? I was staying in Brooklyn, 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.919 in the Brownsville area. You know, it's very rough, especially 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.560 in the seventies at that time. I was a baby 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:49.280 when I was in the Bronx, but I came back 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:52.359 to the Bronx because that's where my grandmother lived, and 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.680 my mother ended up moving back with her mother. Your 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:58.640 dad wasn't around, No, my dad wasn't around. He left 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:00.959 me when I was about I think three or four 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:01.520 years old. 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:03.919 And what about brothers and sisters. 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:07.760 I have one brother, one younger brother who's a year 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:11.800 younger than me. His name is Abdull. That's just a 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:15.280 brother on my mother's side. I have a whole lot 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.480 of other siblings on my father's side as well that 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:20.960 I just recently started getting in contact with. 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:27.639 Got it Okay, So you grew up in well difficult circumstances, right, 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:32.800 dodge in trouble and ultimately getting into getting into trouble, 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:35.440 but not the trouble that you were convicted of. Right, No, 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:38.560 absolutely not, And that's part of the crazy story. So 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:42.600 you were known as a fixture in the drug trade 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:45.120 at the time that this went on, right, Yes, And 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:48.120 you were in the crosshairs of the police as a 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:50.360 result of the fact that you were a known dealer. 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:51.000 Yes. 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.680 And can you just give us a quick overview of 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:56.720 what your life was like when you were in the 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:58.600 game in the Bronx back then. 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:02.800 I mean, when I was in the game, I could 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:06.280 say I was on top of my game, my lifestyle 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:09.840 was good, I had money, and I was doing well, 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.440 you know. So I don't know what else I could 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:14.320 say about that. 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:17.160 I mean I could have add a little bit of 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:22.040 a few details. Cal sometimes likes to talk about him, 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:23.800 but you know that's not who he is now. So 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:27.400 I understand a little shyness about it. But cal Is 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:29.719 he once told me he was living the life. And 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:33.920 we think of people imitating rap stars now, but rap 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:37.039 stars back then were imitating people like cal So. He 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:39.480 had a couple of mink coats, he had a matching 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:45.520 mink hat. He had two what he called black Man's wishes, 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:50.440 which b m W. The car that let people know 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:55.400 that he made it, And I think Yeah, that was 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:58.760 part of the great thrill of it, But in the end, 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:00.600 that brought a lot of attention into the can all 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:01.720 the wrong kind of attention. 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.400 I'm not judging one way or the other. I don't 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:07.960 think anybody can unless they walk a mile in your shoes. 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:13.279 That being said, how did this crazy situation unfold? You 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:17.120 were convicted of a murder in nineteen ninety two. So 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:21.240 on that faithful night of September tenth, nineteen ninety two, 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:25.159 two brothers, Elijah and Saladin Harris, twenty four and twenty 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.720 five years old, were murdered in cold blood as they 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:31.560 sat in the car eating their food, and that's what 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.280 started this whole chain of events that led to your 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.400 wrongful conviction. Yes, were you there at the time. 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:42.560 I wasn't on the scene where the crime happened at 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:45.560 I was in the middle of the block. It was 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:50.159 probably what like five hundred or one thousand feet away 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.200 from where the incident actually took place when it had happened, 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.080 But I was always in and around that area at 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:00.960 all times. That was the block that I was known 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:02.520 for selling drugs at. 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:04.720 Just to set the scene. One of the things that's 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:08.960 kind of incredible cow was a drug distributor, a very 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:14.000 good one. I mean, he's got immense entrepreneurial talents, which 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.279 also served him well when he was in prison and 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:21.440 managing his own case. But the thing that's incredible going 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:25.480 back to the late eighties early nineties, is that the 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:30.279 cops target Cow and they say it out loud, it's 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:35.040 in the newspaper, we want Cow Buari and they go 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:39.039 so far as to say he's not only a murderer, 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:43.919 we believe a drug dealer who walks around flaunting his success, 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:46.400 but he knows black magic. 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:51.880 Yeah, that was like the biggest propaganda in the world. 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:55.120 I think that only happened because they figured out that 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:59.320 I had an African last name, and instead of me 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:04.279 knowing this black magic as they proclaimed, they were the 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:06.760 ones that were really on the witch hunt and they 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:09.800 just wanted me by all means necessary. And one of 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:12.680 the things that I learned later is this is the 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:17.040 way that Alan Caaren when he mentions how you know, 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:23.800 he utilized different tactics and angles, that was actually one 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:27.760 of his biggest tools. Because what happened was when I 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:30.520 went to trial, not only did he ambush me with 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:34.200 surprise witnesses that me or my lawyer didn't know about 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:38.920 who was coming into wrongly accuse me. He also utilized 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:44.800 the media, so now jurors were actually getting that article 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:50.480 delivered in little flyers to their houses while I was 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:51.040 on trip. 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:52.920 Wow, you never heard selling before? 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.360 Yeah, yeah, I think there was even like a newsletter, 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:57.160 a co op newsletter. 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:57.640 That did this. 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:00.560 And you know, Alan Karen's the prosecute. He works for 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.040 the bronx DA, He's got a big reputation. He comes 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:07.080 in like they're throwing their heavy hitter at it because 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:12.000 they want Col. And you know, Cal has in their minds. 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:15.680 I think he's you've been accused of another murder and 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:20.240 Cal keeps eluding them, and this kind of engenders this 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:25.679 ferocity on their part to let's get Cow. 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:28.160 And that's something that I talk about a lot. You know, 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:32.959 when they take this talk about black magic like a 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:36.280 witch hunter, they decide they're going to get Col. Right. 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.680 That means, now this double murder happens, are like, how convenient, 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:42.640 we'll pin this on you. But in the meantime, that 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:46.440 means by definition that they're totally willing to ignore the 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.199 actual killer or killers, who are then going to be 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:50.640 free to go do it again, But I want to 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:54.600 go back a little bit because there you are five 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.360 hundred one thousand feet away whatever shots ring out. I mean, 0:08:57.400 --> 0:08:59.960 this was a very violent time, right was there a 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:03.160 were shootings a frequent thing in the neighborhood. 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:07.679 I mean in that era, murders were at an all 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:10.440 time high. New York I think at that time was 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.160 the murder capital. You know, you had two thousand and 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:16.760 something murders a year. Looking back at that time and 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:20.000 that age, you know, literally I knew that when I 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:22.800 was in the lifestyle I was in every day that 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:25.160 I walked out my house, I knew I was putting 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.760 my life on the line. But you know, to me, 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:30.880 it was a sacrifice because I felt like I had 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:34.240 to beat a man of my household because my father 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.080 wasn't around and I was the oldest sibling, and my 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:39.479 mother lost a job and she was struggling. 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:45.119 So even in a neighborhood where shootings were a regular occurrence, 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:49.280 this was a double murder of two brothers, and you 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:51.000 heard the shots. Did you go to the scenes, and 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.600 then how did it happen? When did the arrest happen? 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:55.760 And when did you start to see that this was 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:57.120 really going to be your undoing. 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:02.000 After that happened, I had immediately ran to the opposite 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:04.440 end of the block and I was with a friend 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.480 of mine's, John Parris, you know may rest in pieces 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.600 not here today. And then when I walked back up 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.400 to the block, we walked to his house because he 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:17.600 had drugs on him, and we started seeing police come 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.160 to the corner of the block. So we wanted to 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:22.160 know what was going on because we just heard the 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:25.440 shots go off. So once he had took what he 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:27.480 had in the house, we walked up to the block 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:29.960 and that's when I found out that two guys had 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:30.600 got murdered. 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:31.720 Did you know those guys? 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:33.160 No? I didn't. 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:36.120 Were you arrested on the spot or no, I wasn't. 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:41.000 I was arrested six months later. I was arrested because 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.680 Aldrick Griffin, he was one of the leaders of the 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:48.200 Shower Posse, the Jamaican gang called the Shower Posse, and 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.520 from the records that I had read, he had gotten 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:55.600 locked up for inoperable or a firearm, a weapon, and 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.960 I think some drugs. He already wanted to get me 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.960 off the block because he was also my competition of 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:05.960 course the street, so that's how I got arrested. He 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.040 falsely accused me for killing the Harvest brothers. 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:13.360 And remember, I mean this block gets called eventually Corner 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.960 on Blood, right on that corner, and you know, some 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.560 years later, there's like seven eight nine shootings within the 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:23.920 span of a month, So this becomes a very very 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.480 hot block. Juliani comes in, he wants to clean it up. 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:31.440 Calf kind of falls into that to that profile in 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.760 a big way. But when they first arrest him, I 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:38.760 think it's March of ninety three, so that's like six 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:44.360 months after the actual executions. It's an aspirational arrest. I mean, 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:49.160 they got one witness who may or may not hold 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:52.240 up in court, but they want Cal off the street. 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:54.600 So hey, we're gonna throw him in jail for as 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:56.600 long as we can, and we're going to try and 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:01.040 develop a case while we're holding him, and they don't 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.040 have a case. It takes some years, and the thing 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.200 that comes out is that they're actually about to walk 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:12.600 away from this case. They're completely bluffing. Cal mentions Alan Karen, 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:17.520 the prosecutor, and really he tells me in the podcast 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.280 he had no case. He says, I was bluffing. I 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:23.520 was going to take this as far as I could 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:27.520 and then dismiss it. And then there's a twist and 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:30.960 a turn that intervenes three years later. 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:35.360 I wanted to touch on that too. I literally have 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:37.720 to commence Steve because I think that he did a 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:42.920 more thorough investigation than any prosecutor, than any lawyer that 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.480 I ever had, than any detective that was ever on 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:50.400 my case. And he talked to every single individual that 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.559 had anything to do with my case. And you know, 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:56.400 with that bluff that he said that was a violation 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:59.600 of the sixth Amendment to my speedy trial rights. He 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:01.960 never had had a case against me. They always knew 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:06.000 that that guy initially was lying. When he got arrested, 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:09.240 he immediately went back to Jamaica. He wasn't trying to 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:12.880 cooperate with them. He just utilized me to get out 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.320 of jail and possibly get back on the block to 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:17.960 try to take over what I had going on out there, 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:22.520 you understand. And the sad part about it is when 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:26.160 you talk about Alan Caaron, you talk about one of 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.760 Robert Johnson's leading hitman, so speak. 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.840 That Johnson's the district attorney in the Bronx for twenty 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:33.560 five years. 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:39.160 Yeah, And with him, it's sad because I know that 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:43.520 that man has a lot of individuals possibly in prison 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:47.720 right now for cases they didn't commit. And with Robert Johnson, 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:49.880 the reason why I brought him up is because under 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:54.120 his tenure, the Bronx had the most Brady violation and 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:58.920 prosbittorial misconduct violations than any other borough. And none of 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.440 them ever has been chastised or punished for none of 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.760 these acts. So when they get away with doing these things, 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.960 they walk around as though they are above the law, 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.840 like with impunity that they have no punity. So it's 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:17.360 just sad, you know, rather than see justice done, Alan Cameron, 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.520 rather uphold the conviction. And that's who this man is. 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:24.960 And it's just a lot of other people that I 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:27.440 know that are in the situation that I am, because 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:30.320 when this God took a set on you, he was 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:32.920 gonna go by all means to take you down, period 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.120 and he showed that clearly when he spoke to Steve. 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:38.800 He has no impunity for that, you know. 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.200 No, it's something that we talk about unwrungful conviction a lot, 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:45.960 which is that until we are able to get rid 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:50.720 of prosecutorial immunity, which is almost total, but probably the 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.360 only profession that enjoys that type of protection. Right, almost 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:56.360 any job that you do. If you're a doctor and 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:58.280 you mess up, you know you're going down. I mean, 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:00.600 it's like and there's so many exis samples of that, 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:05.760 but they're able to get away with just insane things. 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:09.120 I mean, it's the most powerful position in the justice system. 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:12.280 I think most people think that a judge has an 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:14.560 ultimate authority, but we know, those of us who are 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.880 in this business, no, definitely that the prosecutor has so 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.240 much power. They can drop charges whenever they want to, 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:24.200 for whatever reason they want to. They can throw the 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:28.160 harshest penalties at you. In an attempt to bluff, as 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.080 you said, to get you to cop a plea. 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:35.120 Cow Is offered a plea three years, three years, and 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:37.640 he turned it down because he's innocent. And you know, 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:41.120 to your point about the prosecutors, one thing that happens 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:47.479 is the system gives them, legitimately by law, enormous advantages. 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:53.320 Now imagine six witnesses come forward and testify against cal 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.320 and they're really drug dealers who have been in the 0:15:56.360 --> 0:16:01.600 scene or people who have committed crimes, and the prosecution 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.680 is allowed to encouraged to hand out deals. 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:05.760 Sure. And so. 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:10.280 There's actually a guy in prison and they go to 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:12.720 him and they say how long you want to do 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.880 right or you can testify against Cal. And by the way, 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.840 there's a guy who's very close to Cal. This all happens. 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.600 It's a kind of intimate drama. It all happens within 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:26.840 most of it, within a circle. But the second advantage, 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:29.080 and this is what really shocked me. I think when 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:33.400 I looked at the transcript, you know, eleven hundred pages thick, 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:36.080 Cal had it sent to me. This is of a 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:40.760 trial in nineteen ninety five. As Cal alluded to. The 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:44.920 prosecutor goes to the judge and says, Calvin Buari black magic. 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:49.400 Calvin Bari is so dangerous. We need in order of protection. 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.960 The judge says, all right, you know, I mean the 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.720 judge isn't running this. It's the prosecution that's running this. 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:58.040 He says, Okay, I don't want to be on the 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:00.400 front page of the New York Post if something happens. 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:04.879 And so that means that Cal and his attorney cannot 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:09.600 know who is going to testify against him until the 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:10.639 witness walks. 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:10.920 To the stand. 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:16.000 Now, I mean, imagine that kind of disadvantage and that's legal. 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:20.600 To your point, Jason, there's a kind of immunity. Whether 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:24.439 I don't think it's in the law, but it in practice. 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:29.480 Prosecutors are not held to account for there. Let's give 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:34.200 it the best, the best interpretation. They're mistakes. Sometimes those 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.880 mistakes are due to overzealousness or refusal to look at 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.879 the facts, and it doesn't have an impact on a career, 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:46.080 so you know, recidivism, that's what we're talking about, right. 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:56.880 They are in fact immune in so many ways. Freedom 0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:59.840 Agenda is a proud sponsor of this episode of Wrongful Conviction. 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:04.120 Freedom Agenda is led by people directly impacted by incarceration, 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.240 and they're organizing to get Mayor Eric Adams to follow 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.760 the law and shut down Rikers Island. Right now, thousands 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.159 of people are awaiting trial there in life threatening conditions. 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:17.920 Freedom Agenda is committed to creating a safer and more 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:22.120 just city by winning investments in long neglected communities, protecting 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:24.479 the rights of people involved in the criminal legal system, 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:28.320 and ending the cycle of violence that Rikers perpetuates. To 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:30.679 learn more about the campaign to close Rikers and to 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:33.680 sign up for Freedom Agenda's mailing list, go to campaign 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:37.399 to close Rikers dot org, slash get involved, or follow 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:46.760 at Freedom Agenda and Why on social media. There's a 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:49.080 couple things that I want to highlight. One is that 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:53.679 had they really believed that you murdered two people in 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.720 cold blood, there's no possibility they would have offered you 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.639 three years. That's ridiculous, right, That's just I mean that 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:03.040 you have you really have to suspend a lot of 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:05.959 layers of disbelief in order to try to give yourself 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:09.320 around that one. And what you were talking about is 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:12.840 a legal principle that was developed in England centuries ago, 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:15.800 which is called trial by ambush, right, which was where 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:18.480 they would not tell the defense anything that they were 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:19.919 going to say or do, or who they were going 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:22.399 to bring in. Their thought was that this way they 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:25.000 would get to the truth because they would just use 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:30.360 this surprise tactic. But of course it's just patently unfair. 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:33.080 And now we have the Brady decision from nineteen sixty 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.960 four in which the Supreme Court said that prosecutors have 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:42.440 a duty, that obligation to disclose exculpatory evidence to the defense, 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:45.520 but they left it up to the prosecutors to decide 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:48.360 what they considered to be exculpatory. So they really they 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:50.520 had it right, and then they sort of pulled the 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.800 rugout from under their own decision, which left us in 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:56.679 this situation where we see time and again in New 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.199 York State, it's common that they sometimes they turn it 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:01.000 over the day of the tr trial too, right, so 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:02.800 it's like, oh, here's the stuff, and then what are 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:05.480 you supposed to do? Like, you can't, you can't, you 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:06.400 can't examine it. 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.000 And investigate, you can't do anything. It's absolutely what you said, 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:12.480 it's a trial by ambush, I mean, and that's how 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:16.200 I was ultimately sadbag and convicted because if you're looking 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:18.439 at the ambush and you're looking at the media that 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:21.800 was brought up against me, then you have six individuals 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:24.040 that say they know me, and some of them I 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:27.840 didn't know, then you got a conviction. I'm not innocent 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:31.160 to proven guilty. I'm guilty until I prove my innocence. 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:33.840 And that's absolutely what happened to me. But I also 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:37.199 think that Alan caaron to to touch more on that 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:41.320 point that Steve brought up. He was actually promoted after 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:45.920 all of that. He was Robert Johnson's ada top dog 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:49.240 in that office, and he allowed him to do whatever 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:52.439 he wanted to. That's why he has that attitude that 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:56.440 he has. Would you believe that out of four file folders, 0:20:56.680 --> 0:21:00.480 three of those filfolders went missing and my case complete? 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:03.679 So you know, this is the new tactic that Alan 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:07.760 Karon employed. He's not only gonna turn over the sculpatory evidence, 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:12.400 he gonna make sure that the any esculpatory evidence just disappears. Period. 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:15.560 So what do you do now when you have evidence 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:18.680 that they have in their possession they possibly always knew 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:21.240 I didn't commit the crime that you're gonna never be 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:24.160 able to get your hands on. There's also some type 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:26.399 of justice reform that needs to be done with that. 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.359 I think that there needs to be an open case 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:33.760 foul with the defense attorney and the prosecutor. Because there 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:36.520 are both officers of the court, they share the same 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.840 ethical duty. It shouldn't be a disadvantage where they have 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:43.360 all the power. And then if you have anything that 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:47.120 can support your position and you'll never get it. 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:49.320 Yeah, you'll never know about it, and it is crazy. 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:51.840 But the fact is that, as we all know, in 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:54.600 a civil trial, everyone has to turn over everything and 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:56.479 all you're arguing about is money. In this case, they 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:59.359 were arguing about your life. And that's for some reason 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:01.919 that's not true with the same level of respect by 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:04.959 the justice system as money is, which just strikes me 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:08.600 as Alice in Wonderland, like completely upside down and inside out. 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:11.120 It doesn't make any damn sense. So back to you, 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.200 did you know after you go through this trial, they 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:17.800 have these witnesses, every one of which was an incentivized witness, right, 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:21.280 and you know, had every reason to lie. They didn't 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:23.240 really care about you. In some cases they wanted you 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.000 convicted because, as Robinson did, he wanted you off the 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:28.320