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Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't

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Speaker 1: even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: I was brought up like cops are the good guys.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I

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Speaker 1: do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like everything.

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Speaker 2: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I

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Speaker 2: know I'm innocent.

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Speaker 1: I know I had nothing to do with this.

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Speaker 2: How is this possible?

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Speaker 3: I grew up trusting systems. I've grew up believing that

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Speaker 3: every human being should do the right thing. And that's why,

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Speaker 3: even though I knew I was dealing with corrough people,

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Speaker 3: I wasn't going to break anyone to get me out

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Speaker 3: of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that

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Speaker 3: I break my way out of my wife's death.

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Speaker 1: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I

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Speaker 1: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.

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Speaker 1: Our system.

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Speaker 2: Since I've been out ten years, it has come a

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Speaker 2: little ways, but it's still broken.

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Speaker 3: I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to it.

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Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 4: Jason Flamm. Today's episode features two extraordinary people. Steve Fishman,

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Speaker 4: the journalist who was the host of Empire on Blood,

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Speaker 4: which played a role in the ultimate reversal of the

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Speaker 4: conviction of our other guest who was in prison for

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Speaker 4: over two decades for a double murder he didn't commit.

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Speaker 4: And that's Calvin Bari.

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Speaker 5: Calvin Buari was convicted of a double homicide in nineteen

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Speaker 5: ninety five, but maintained he was innocent for more than

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Speaker 5: two decades. He was released last year after his conviction

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Speaker 5: was overturned, but prosecutors threatened to retry the case until

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Speaker 5: last week.

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Speaker 4: So Steve, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 4: Jason and Calvin Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Jason.

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Speaker 4: Let's get right into the story, because your story has

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Speaker 4: more twists and turns than a Hollywood movie. I would say,

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Speaker 4: let's go back to the beginning. Calvin, where did you

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Speaker 4: grow up?

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Speaker 1: I grew up in the Bronx. I grew up at

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Speaker 1: nine to twenty two East to eleventh Street in the

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Speaker 1: northeast section of the Bronx Wakefield area.

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Speaker 4: And what was that like? What was your childhood like,

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Speaker 4: did you have brothers, sisters? Were your parents at home?

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Speaker 4: Was it a tough neighborhood? What was the situation growing up?

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Speaker 1: That's where I was born, But I was moving around.

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Speaker 1: Where was that At one time? I was staying in Brooklyn,

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Speaker 1: in the Brownsville area. You know, it's very rough, especially

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Speaker 1: in the seventies at that time. I was a baby

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Speaker 1: when I was in the Bronx, but I came back

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Speaker 1: to the Bronx because that's where my grandmother lived, and

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Speaker 1: my mother ended up moving back with her mother. Your

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Speaker 1: dad wasn't around, No, my dad wasn't around. He left

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Speaker 1: me when I was about I think three or four

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Speaker 1: years old.

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Speaker 4: And what about brothers and sisters.

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Speaker 1: I have one brother, one younger brother who's a year

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Speaker 1: younger than me. His name is Abdull. That's just a

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Speaker 1: brother on my mother's side. I have a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of other siblings on my father's side as well that

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Speaker 1: I just recently started getting in contact with.

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Speaker 4: Got it Okay, So you grew up in well difficult circumstances, right,

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Speaker 4: dodge in trouble and ultimately getting into getting into trouble,

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Speaker 4: but not the trouble that you were convicted of. Right, No,

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Speaker 4: absolutely not, And that's part of the crazy story. So

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Speaker 4: you were known as a fixture in the drug trade

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Speaker 4: at the time that this went on, right, Yes, And

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Speaker 4: you were in the crosshairs of the police as a

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Speaker 4: result of the fact that you were a known dealer.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 4: And can you just give us a quick overview of

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Speaker 4: what your life was like when you were in the

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Speaker 4: game in the Bronx back then.

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Speaker 1: I mean, when I was in the game, I could

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Speaker 1: say I was on top of my game, my lifestyle

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Speaker 1: was good, I had money, and I was doing well,

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Speaker 1: you know. So I don't know what else I could

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Speaker 1: say about that.

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Speaker 2: I mean I could have add a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a few details. Cal sometimes likes to talk about him,

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Speaker 2: but you know that's not who he is now. So

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Speaker 2: I understand a little shyness about it. But cal Is

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Speaker 2: he once told me he was living the life. And

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Speaker 2: we think of people imitating rap stars now, but rap

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Speaker 2: stars back then were imitating people like cal So. He

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Speaker 2: had a couple of mink coats, he had a matching

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Speaker 2: mink hat. He had two what he called black Man's wishes,

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Speaker 2: which b m W. The car that let people know

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Speaker 2: that he made it, And I think Yeah, that was

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Speaker 2: part of the great thrill of it, But in the end,

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Speaker 2: that brought a lot of attention into the can all

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Speaker 2: the wrong kind of attention.

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Speaker 4: I'm not judging one way or the other. I don't

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Speaker 4: think anybody can unless they walk a mile in your shoes.

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Speaker 4: That being said, how did this crazy situation unfold? You

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Speaker 4: were convicted of a murder in nineteen ninety two. So

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Speaker 4: on that faithful night of September tenth, nineteen ninety two,

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Speaker 4: two brothers, Elijah and Saladin Harris, twenty four and twenty

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Speaker 4: five years old, were murdered in cold blood as they

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Speaker 4: sat in the car eating their food, and that's what

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Speaker 4: started this whole chain of events that led to your

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Speaker 4: wrongful conviction. Yes, were you there at the time.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't on the scene where the crime happened at

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Speaker 1: I was in the middle of the block. It was

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Speaker 1: probably what like five hundred or one thousand feet away

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Speaker 1: from where the incident actually took place when it had happened,

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Speaker 1: But I was always in and around that area at

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Speaker 1: all times. That was the block that I was known

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Speaker 1: for selling drugs at.

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Speaker 2: Just to set the scene. One of the things that's

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Speaker 2: kind of incredible cow was a drug distributor, a very

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Speaker 2: good one. I mean, he's got immense entrepreneurial talents, which

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Speaker 2: also served him well when he was in prison and

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Speaker 2: managing his own case. But the thing that's incredible going

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Speaker 2: back to the late eighties early nineties, is that the

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Speaker 2: cops target Cow and they say it out loud, it's

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Speaker 2: in the newspaper, we want Cow Buari and they go

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Speaker 2: so far as to say he's not only a murderer,

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Speaker 2: we believe a drug dealer who walks around flaunting his success,

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Speaker 2: but he knows black magic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was like the biggest propaganda in the world.

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Speaker 1: I think that only happened because they figured out that

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Speaker 1: I had an African last name, and instead of me

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Speaker 1: knowing this black magic as they proclaimed, they were the

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Speaker 1: ones that were really on the witch hunt and they

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Speaker 1: just wanted me by all means necessary. And one of

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Speaker 1: the things that I learned later is this is the

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Speaker 1: way that Alan Caaren when he mentions how you know,

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Speaker 1: he utilized different tactics and angles, that was actually one

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Speaker 1: of his biggest tools. Because what happened was when I

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Speaker 1: went to trial, not only did he ambush me with

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Speaker 1: surprise witnesses that me or my lawyer didn't know about

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Speaker 1: who was coming into wrongly accuse me. He also utilized

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Speaker 1: the media, so now jurors were actually getting that article

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Speaker 1: delivered in little flyers to their houses while I was

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Speaker 1: on trip.

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Speaker 4: Wow, you never heard selling before?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think there was even like a newsletter,

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Speaker 2: a co op newsletter.

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Speaker 4: That did this.

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Speaker 2: And you know, Alan Karen's the prosecute. He works for

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Speaker 2: the bronx DA, He's got a big reputation. He comes

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Speaker 2: in like they're throwing their heavy hitter at it because

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Speaker 2: they want Col. And you know, Cal has in their minds.

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Speaker 2: I think he's you've been accused of another murder and

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Speaker 2: Cal keeps eluding them, and this kind of engenders this

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Speaker 2: ferocity on their part to let's get Cow.

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Speaker 4: And that's something that I talk about a lot. You know,

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Speaker 4: when they take this talk about black magic like a

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Speaker 4: witch hunter, they decide they're going to get Col. Right.

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Speaker 4: That means, now this double murder happens, are like, how convenient,

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Speaker 4: we'll pin this on you. But in the meantime, that

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Speaker 4: means by definition that they're totally willing to ignore the

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Speaker 4: actual killer or killers, who are then going to be

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Speaker 4: free to go do it again, But I want to

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Speaker 4: go back a little bit because there you are five

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Speaker 4: hundred one thousand feet away whatever shots ring out. I mean,

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Speaker 4: this was a very violent time, right was there a

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Speaker 4: were shootings a frequent thing in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: I mean in that era, murders were at an all

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Speaker 1: time high. New York I think at that time was

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Speaker 1: the murder capital. You know, you had two thousand and

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Speaker 1: something murders a year. Looking back at that time and

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Speaker 1: that age, you know, literally I knew that when I

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Speaker 1: was in the lifestyle I was in every day that

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Speaker 1: I walked out my house, I knew I was putting

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Speaker 1: my life on the line. But you know, to me,

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Speaker 1: it was a sacrifice because I felt like I had

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Speaker 1: to beat a man of my household because my father

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Speaker 1: wasn't around and I was the oldest sibling, and my

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Speaker 1: mother lost a job and she was struggling.

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Speaker 4: So even in a neighborhood where shootings were a regular occurrence,

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Speaker 4: this was a double murder of two brothers, and you

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Speaker 4: heard the shots. Did you go to the scenes, and

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Speaker 4: then how did it happen? When did the arrest happen?

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Speaker 4: And when did you start to see that this was

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Speaker 4: really going to be your undoing.

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Speaker 1: After that happened, I had immediately ran to the opposite

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Speaker 1: end of the block and I was with a friend

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Speaker 1: of mine's, John Parris, you know may rest in pieces

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Speaker 1: not here today. And then when I walked back up

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Speaker 1: to the block, we walked to his house because he

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Speaker 1: had drugs on him, and we started seeing police come

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Speaker 1: to the corner of the block. So we wanted to

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Speaker 1: know what was going on because we just heard the

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Speaker 1: shots go off. So once he had took what he

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Speaker 1: had in the house, we walked up to the block

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Speaker 1: and that's when I found out that two guys had

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Speaker 1: got murdered.

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Speaker 4: Did you know those guys?

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Speaker 1: No? I didn't.

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Speaker 4: Were you arrested on the spot or no, I wasn't.

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Speaker 1: I was arrested six months later. I was arrested because

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Speaker 1: Aldrick Griffin, he was one of the leaders of the

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Speaker 1: Shower Posse, the Jamaican gang called the Shower Posse, and

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Speaker 1: from the records that I had read, he had gotten

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Speaker 1: locked up for inoperable or a firearm, a weapon, and

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Speaker 1: I think some drugs. He already wanted to get me

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Speaker 1: off the block because he was also my competition of

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Speaker 1: course the street, so that's how I got arrested. He

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Speaker 1: falsely accused me for killing the Harvest brothers.

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Speaker 2: And remember, I mean this block gets called eventually Corner

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Speaker 2: on Blood, right on that corner, and you know, some

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Speaker 2: years later, there's like seven eight nine shootings within the

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Speaker 2: span of a month, So this becomes a very very

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Speaker 2: hot block. Juliani comes in, he wants to clean it up.

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Speaker 2: Calf kind of falls into that to that profile in

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Speaker 2: a big way. But when they first arrest him, I

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Speaker 2: think it's March of ninety three, so that's like six

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Speaker 2: months after the actual executions. It's an aspirational arrest. I mean,

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Speaker 2: they got one witness who may or may not hold

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Speaker 2: up in court, but they want Cal off the street.

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Speaker 2: So hey, we're gonna throw him in jail for as

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Speaker 2: long as we can, and we're going to try and

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Speaker 2: develop a case while we're holding him, and they don't

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Speaker 2: have a case. It takes some years, and the thing

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Speaker 2: that comes out is that they're actually about to walk

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Speaker 2: away from this case. They're completely bluffing. Cal mentions Alan Karen,

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Speaker 2: the prosecutor, and really he tells me in the podcast

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Speaker 2: he had no case. He says, I was bluffing. I

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Speaker 2: was going to take this as far as I could

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Speaker 2: and then dismiss it. And then there's a twist and

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Speaker 2: a turn that intervenes three years later.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to touch on that too. I literally have

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Speaker 1: to commence Steve because I think that he did a

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Speaker 1: more thorough investigation than any prosecutor, than any lawyer that

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Speaker 1: I ever had, than any detective that was ever on

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Speaker 1: my case. And he talked to every single individual that

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Speaker 1: had anything to do with my case. And you know,

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Speaker 1: with that bluff that he said that was a violation

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Speaker 1: of the sixth Amendment to my speedy trial rights. He

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Speaker 1: never had had a case against me. They always knew

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Speaker 1: that that guy initially was lying. When he got arrested,

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Speaker 1: he immediately went back to Jamaica. He wasn't trying to

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Speaker 1: cooperate with them. He just utilized me to get out

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Speaker 1: of jail and possibly get back on the block to

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Speaker 1: try to take over what I had going on out there,

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Speaker 1: you understand. And the sad part about it is when

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Speaker 1: you talk about Alan Caaron, you talk about one of

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Speaker 1: Robert Johnson's leading hitman, so speak.

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Speaker 2: That Johnson's the district attorney in the Bronx for twenty

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Speaker 2: five years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And with him, it's sad because I know that

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Speaker 1: that man has a lot of individuals possibly in prison

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Speaker 1: right now for cases they didn't commit. And with Robert Johnson,

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Speaker 1: the reason why I brought him up is because under

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Speaker 1: his tenure, the Bronx had the most Brady violation and

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Speaker 1: prosbittorial misconduct violations than any other borough. And none of

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Speaker 1: them ever has been chastised or punished for none of

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Speaker 1: these acts. So when they get away with doing these things,

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Speaker 1: they walk around as though they are above the law,

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Speaker 1: like with impunity that they have no punity. So it's

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Speaker 1: just sad, you know, rather than see justice done, Alan Cameron,

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Speaker 1: rather uphold the conviction. And that's who this man is.

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Speaker 1: And it's just a lot of other people that I

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Speaker 1: know that are in the situation that I am, because

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Speaker 1: when this God took a set on you, he was

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Speaker 1: gonna go by all means to take you down, period

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Speaker 1: and he showed that clearly when he spoke to Steve.

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Speaker 1: He has no impunity for that, you know.

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Speaker 4: No, it's something that we talk about unwrungful conviction a lot,

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Speaker 4: which is that until we are able to get rid

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Speaker 4: of prosecutorial immunity, which is almost total, but probably the

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Speaker 4: only profession that enjoys that type of protection. Right, almost

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Speaker 4: any job that you do. If you're a doctor and

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Speaker 4: you mess up, you know you're going down. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's like and there's so many exis samples of that,

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Speaker 4: but they're able to get away with just insane things.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's the most powerful position in the justice system.

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Speaker 4: I think most people think that a judge has an

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Speaker 4: ultimate authority, but we know, those of us who are

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Speaker 4: in this business, no, definitely that the prosecutor has so

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Speaker 4: much power. They can drop charges whenever they want to,

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Speaker 4: for whatever reason they want to. They can throw the

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Speaker 4: harshest penalties at you. In an attempt to bluff, as

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Speaker 4: you said, to get you to cop a plea.

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Speaker 2: Cow Is offered a plea three years, three years, and

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Speaker 2: he turned it down because he's innocent. And you know,

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Speaker 2: to your point about the prosecutors, one thing that happens

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Speaker 2: is the system gives them, legitimately by law, enormous advantages.

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Speaker 2: Now imagine six witnesses come forward and testify against cal

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Speaker 2: and they're really drug dealers who have been in the

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Speaker 2: scene or people who have committed crimes, and the prosecution

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Speaker 2: is allowed to encouraged to hand out deals.

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Speaker 4: Sure. And so.

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Speaker 2: There's actually a guy in prison and they go to

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Speaker 2: him and they say how long you want to do

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Speaker 2: right or you can testify against Cal. And by the way,

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Speaker 2: there's a guy who's very close to Cal. This all happens.

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Speaker 2: It's a kind of intimate drama. It all happens within

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Speaker 2: most of it, within a circle. But the second advantage,

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Speaker 2: and this is what really shocked me. I think when

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Speaker 2: I looked at the transcript, you know, eleven hundred pages thick,

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Speaker 2: Cal had it sent to me. This is of a

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Speaker 2: trial in nineteen ninety five. As Cal alluded to. The

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Speaker 2: prosecutor goes to the judge and says, Calvin Buari black magic.

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Speaker 2: Calvin Bari is so dangerous. We need in order of protection.

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Speaker 2: The judge says, all right, you know, I mean the

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Speaker 2: judge isn't running this. It's the prosecution that's running this.

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Speaker 2: He says, Okay, I don't want to be on the

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Speaker 2: front page of the New York Post if something happens.

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Speaker 2: And so that means that Cal and his attorney cannot

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Speaker 2: know who is going to testify against him until the

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Speaker 2: witness walks.

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Speaker 1: To the stand.

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Speaker 2: Now, I mean, imagine that kind of disadvantage and that's legal.

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Speaker 2: To your point, Jason, there's a kind of immunity. Whether

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's in the law, but it in practice.

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Speaker 2: Prosecutors are not held to account for there. Let's give

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Speaker 2: it the best, the best interpretation. They're mistakes. Sometimes those

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Speaker 2: mistakes are due to overzealousness or refusal to look at

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Speaker 2: the facts, and it doesn't have an impact on a career,

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Speaker 2: so you know, recidivism, that's what we're talking about, right.

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Speaker 4: They are in fact immune in so many ways. Freedom

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Speaker 4: Agenda is a proud sponsor of this episode of Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 4: Freedom Agenda is led by people directly impacted by incarceration,

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Speaker 4: and they're organizing to get Mayor Eric Adams to follow

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Speaker 4: the law and shut down Rikers Island. Right now, thousands

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00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,159
Speaker 4: of people are awaiting trial there in life threatening conditions.

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Speaker 4: Freedom Agenda is committed to creating a safer and more

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00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,120
Speaker 4: just city by winning investments in long neglected communities, protecting

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00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,479
Speaker 4: the rights of people involved in the criminal legal system,

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Speaker 4: and ending the cycle of violence that Rikers perpetuates. To

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00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,679
Speaker 4: learn more about the campaign to close Rikers and to

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00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,680
Speaker 4: sign up for Freedom Agenda's mailing list, go to campaign

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Speaker 4: to close Rikers dot org, slash get involved, or follow

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Speaker 4: at Freedom Agenda and Why on social media. There's a

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Speaker 4: couple things that I want to highlight. One is that

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Speaker 4: had they really believed that you murdered two people in

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Speaker 4: cold blood, there's no possibility they would have offered you

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Speaker 4: three years. That's ridiculous, right, That's just I mean that

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Speaker 4: you have you really have to suspend a lot of

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Speaker 4: layers of disbelief in order to try to give yourself

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Speaker 4: around that one. And what you were talking about is

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Speaker 4: a legal principle that was developed in England centuries ago,

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Speaker 4: which is called trial by ambush, right, which was where

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Speaker 4: they would not tell the defense anything that they were

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Speaker 4: going to say or do, or who they were going

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Speaker 4: to bring in. Their thought was that this way they

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Speaker 4: would get to the truth because they would just use

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Speaker 4: this surprise tactic. But of course it's just patently unfair.

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Speaker 4: And now we have the Brady decision from nineteen sixty

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Speaker 4: four in which the Supreme Court said that prosecutors have

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Speaker 4: a duty, that obligation to disclose exculpatory evidence to the defense,

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Speaker 4: but they left it up to the prosecutors to decide

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Speaker 4: what they considered to be exculpatory. So they really they

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Speaker 4: had it right, and then they sort of pulled the

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Speaker 4: rugout from under their own decision, which left us in

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Speaker 4: this situation where we see time and again in New

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Speaker 4: York State, it's common that they sometimes they turn it

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Speaker 4: over the day of the tr trial too, right, so

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Speaker 4: it's like, oh, here's the stuff, and then what are

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Speaker 4: you supposed to do? Like, you can't, you can't, you

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Speaker 4: can't examine it.

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Speaker 1: And investigate, you can't do anything. It's absolutely what you said,

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Speaker 1: it's a trial by ambush, I mean, and that's how

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Speaker 1: I was ultimately sadbag and convicted because if you're looking

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Speaker 1: at the ambush and you're looking at the media that

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Speaker 1: was brought up against me, then you have six individuals

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Speaker 1: that say they know me, and some of them I

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Speaker 1: didn't know, then you got a conviction. I'm not innocent

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Speaker 1: to proven guilty. I'm guilty until I prove my innocence.

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Speaker 1: And that's absolutely what happened to me. But I also

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Speaker 1: think that Alan caaron to to touch more on that

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Speaker 1: point that Steve brought up. He was actually promoted after

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Speaker 1: all of that. He was Robert Johnson's ada top dog

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Speaker 1: in that office, and he allowed him to do whatever

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Speaker 1: he wanted to. That's why he has that attitude that

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Speaker 1: he has. Would you believe that out of four file folders,

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Speaker 1: three of those filfolders went missing and my case complete?

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Speaker 1: So you know, this is the new tactic that Alan

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Speaker 1: Karon employed. He's not only gonna turn over the sculpatory evidence,

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Speaker 1: he gonna make sure that the any esculpatory evidence just disappears. Period.

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Speaker 1: So what do you do now when you have evidence

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Speaker 1: that they have in their possession they possibly always knew

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Speaker 1: I didn't commit the crime that you're gonna never be

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Speaker 1: able to get your hands on. There's also some type

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Speaker 1: of justice reform that needs to be done with that.

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Speaker 1: I think that there needs to be an open case

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Speaker 1: foul with the defense attorney and the prosecutor. Because there

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Speaker 1: are both officers of the court, they share the same

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Speaker 1: ethical duty. It shouldn't be a disadvantage where they have

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Speaker 1: all the power. And then if you have anything that

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Speaker 1: can support your position and you'll never get it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you'll never know about it, and it is crazy.

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Speaker 4: But the fact is that, as we all know, in

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Speaker 4: a civil trial, everyone has to turn over everything and

390
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Speaker 4: all you're arguing about is money. In this case, they

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Speaker 4: were arguing about your life. And that's for some reason

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Speaker 4: that's not true with the same level of respect by

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Speaker 4: the justice system as money is, which just strikes me

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Speaker 4: as Alice in Wonderland, like completely upside down and inside out.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't make any damn sense. So back to you,

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Speaker 4: did you know after you go through this trial, they

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Speaker 4: have these witnesses, every one of which was an incentivized witness, right,

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Speaker 4: and you know, had every reason to lie. They didn't

399
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Speaker 4: really care about you. In some cases they wanted you

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Speaker 4: convicted because, as Robinson did, he wanted you off the

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Speaker 4: street so he could have it to himself. So, I

402
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Speaker 4: mean he had multiple reasons he was getting off and

403
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Speaker 4: he was going into a better business situation, yeah, because

404
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Speaker 4: his main competitor was going to be behind bars. So

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Speaker 4: when the jury went out, did you think you had

406
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Speaker 4: a snowballs chance in hell of being vindicated?

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Speaker 1: I mean, truthfully, I put my faith in God and

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Speaker 1: at that time, and I'm taking myself back to that time,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I

410
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Speaker 1: do know that, you know, everything was stacked against me.

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Speaker 1: Everything like everything.

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Speaker 2: Let me just add to that, because Dwight Robinson he's

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Speaker 2: a key, key character. He's a guy who he idolized Cal.

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Speaker 2: He's four years younger. He admires Cal and then for

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Speaker 2: whatever internal dynamics, he feels spurned. He's hurt. He's also

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Speaker 2: at the same time really ambitious, and that results in

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Speaker 2: an attempted murder of cal So Dwight Robinson emerges as

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Speaker 2: the central witness. He organizes the prosecution. The prosecutor uses

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Speaker 2: the word to me. He says Dwight Robinson was a gift.

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Speaker 2: Dwight is bringing people into the prosecutor's office in the

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Speaker 2: back of police cruisers. So he is not only an

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Speaker 2: arm of the prosecution, he's like a lieutenant of the prosecution.

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Speaker 2: They can't do it without him. He has just I

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Speaker 2: think three months prior to tried to murder cal in

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Speaker 2: weeks priorly three weeks Pride just in a hall, bullets

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Speaker 2: in an ambush, right, and that information is kept from

427
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Speaker 2: the jury in this sense, it's brought up. Dwight denies

428
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Speaker 2: it on the stand. At the same time, according to Dwight,

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Speaker 2: and Dwight spent a lot of time talking to me.

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Speaker 2: According to Dwight. It's common knowledge among the prosecutions, certainly

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Speaker 2: among the cops or the detectives. And at one point

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Speaker 2: I said to Dwight, I said, were you surprised that

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Speaker 2: they let you commit perjury on the stand? And he said, nah, nah,

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Speaker 2: I understood the game. It's dirty all around. You tell

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Speaker 2: the truth, you're going to lose every time. That may

436
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 2: be the most chilling thing that I heard. You know,

437
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 2: that kind of organization, that kind of organizing of the prosecution.

438
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,360
Speaker 2: In fact, that kind of by Dwight Robinson, that kind

439
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 2: of utilizing of the prosecution, becoming this collaborator of the prosecution.

440
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 2: And I think Calius phrase trying to kill Cow by

441
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: other means. He failed with bullets, So now he teams

442
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 2: up in the prosecution. And by the way, Dwight admits

443
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 2: that he says, yeah, I wanted to get Cow off

444
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 2: the street and I saw this opportunity. So cal has

445
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 2: to spend the next two decades of his life proving

446
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 2: the Dwight Robinson, this guy once idolized him.

447
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: Is a liar.

448
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 2: And that's I mean, that's a drama that shouldn't be

449
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 2: imposed on to anybody. But it is an amazing drama

450
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 2: to follow.

451
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 4: And let's get to that because that's one of the

452
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 4: more interesting aspects of this case, I think, is that

453
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 4: you end up being convicted. You were sentenced to fifty

454
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 4: years of life, fifty the life, right, so that's pretty

455
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 4: much game over. But you didn't give up. It would

456
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 4: have been pretty easy to give up at that point,

457
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 4: you know, I mean you have now seen the justice

458
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 4: system at its worst, and you know what they're capable of.

459
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 4: You know that they're they're hiding stuff, they're bringing.

460
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: On witnesses riding with his sentence to lie.

461
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 4: And the most nefarious characters they're bringing on to the stand,

462
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 4: like Robinson, right, who they knew was a bad guy, right,

463
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 4: but they didn't care. So you know what they're capable of.

464
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 4: You know how steep of a hill you've got to

465
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 4: climb now, because it just got one hundred times harder

466
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 4: because now you're behind bars and you're looking at fifty

467
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 4: to life. And then things get really interesting all of

468
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 4: a sudden when you get a letter in the mail, right.

469
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've received a foot from Dwight Robinson.

470
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, eight years after his conviction.

471
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 4: And where were you serving at this point?

472
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: I was an upstate correctional facility at that.

473
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 4: Time, maximum security, yes, right.

474
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: And when he wrote me, he started explaining, like I've

475
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: seen them, remorse in them, because you know, one of

476
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: the things that or jumped out with me is the

477
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 1: fact that he started saying, you know, Cal, I'm on

478
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: the inside looking out now, you know, I know your

479
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: hand and called for this, and you know, I started

480
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: to say some type of remorse, you know, when it

481
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: started from there.

482
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 4: The wait, he was in prison writing to you.

483
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: Yes, he had been convicted of a different murder under

484
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 2: very remarkably.

485
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: Similar similar circumstances.

486
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 2: But so Dwight's doing twenty five to life.

487
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 4: Right, And let's just point out for a second that

488
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,239
Speaker 4: that murder didn't ever really have to happen. If they

489
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 4: would have just arrested him when they should have in

490
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 4: the first place, he wouldn't have been free to go

491
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 4: kill whoever it was if he killed. But okay, so

492
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 4: let's just put that on the side for a second. Right,

493
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 4: So you're here in this maximum security prison. First of all,

494
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 4: is it as bad as it sounds?

495
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, I mean, especially at that time in

496
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: that era, it was a whole lot of I mean,

497
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 1: if you look at right because Alan and Upstate in

498
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: the early nineties, that's when they started to have the

499
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,479
Speaker 1: most cutting, stabbings and all that type of stuff. So,

500
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: I mean, Jill is just not a place for nobody

501
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: to me.

502
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: I always wondered, Cal. You know, you're sentenced to fifty

503
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 2: years to life for crimes you didn't do. I mean,

504
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 2: you have to be angry, and I mean it's oh I.

505
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: Was, and I think that I had missdirected anger in

506
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,959
Speaker 1: the beginning, and that's what allowed me to end up

507
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: in the box. But also being afraid, you know what

508
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: I'm saying. I was in an environment that I felt

509
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: like you couldn't show no weakness, and if you did,

510
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: I seen individuals getting raped, stabbed and all type of

511
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,719
Speaker 1: stuff too. So that's what kind of like I had

512
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 1: misdirected anger. So you know, I was doing what the

513
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 1: romans to do while and wrong.

514
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 4: You know, yeah, I mean, you had almost nothing to

515
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 4: lose if they could throw you in the prison within

516
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 4: the prison, which is the box, right, But other than that,

517
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 4: you're trying to spend the rest of your life in

518
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 4: there anyway, So how did you turn that around? Because

519
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 4: obviously you found a different year, right, had you already

520
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 4: gone through that shift when this letter arrived in the mail,

521
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 4: because that's a big moment when that letter gets there.

522
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I had already went through the shift at

523
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: that point. I'm an introvert, so naturally the box was

524
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: kind of like a good place for me, you know

525
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Not only was I alright with myself

526
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: that I noticed that a lot of other individuals they

527
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: couldn't live with themselves inside of prison. And that's why

528
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: a lot of people do a lot of things that

529
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: they do. They want to stay on the gate, they

530
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: want to get high, they want to get into fights,

531
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: because you know, I do mine as a devil's playground.

532
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: So that's what I kind of grew at when I

533
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: was in solitary confinement. This book by James Allen called

534
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: as a Man Think. If I read that book, it

535
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,239
Speaker 1: was a simplistic book to me. However, it kind of

536
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: like related to me so well because it made me

537
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: look at the glass half full of instead of half empty,

538
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: you know, and it allowed me to even look at

539
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: and messed up situations the good out of it. Even

540
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: though I have fifty years to life, I know a

541
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: lot of individuals that were in the grave and I

542
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: still felt like I was alive, so I'm blessed regardless.

543
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: And that's the mindset that I got into once I

544
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: read that book, and once I started with that positive energy,

545
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: that's what really gave me the sense of fied because

546
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: at the time, I started to beat myself up to

547
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: the point of saying, you know, I was a drug dealer.

548
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: Maybe I was belong in jail, because in the beginning,

549
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: that's what I was telling about myself. You know, I

550
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: never got locked up for selling drugs, so maybe this

551
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: was a recompense for my actions. And once I got

552
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: into the positive mind frame, it made me throw that

553
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: away and say, you know, I'm in here for somebody

554
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: didn't do. If I was here for drugs, it'll be

555
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: all right. I did the crime, I'll do the time,

556
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: but I'm in here for a double homicide I did

557
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: not commit. And I just started getting into the books,

558
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: legal books, started reading up on. I started contacting a

559
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: lot of attorneys, a lot of investigators. The Innocent Project

560
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: was one of the main ones. I was in correspondence

561
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: with Barry Shek, Vanessa Pokin, Nina Morrison, and a couple

562
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: of others in an Innocent Project office. But at the time,

563
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: even though they were corresponding with me, they were not

564
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: taking cases that did not have DNA evidence at the time,

565
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: So you know, they were leading me to other law

566
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: firms that were taking pro bono cases that dealt with

567
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions that did not have DNA evidence. At that point.

568
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: Is like the gears shifted for me. And once I

569
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: started to dig into my case. I'm a very determined

570
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: and resilient person. Once I put my mind in something,

571
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: I won't stop until I feel like I'm gonna get

572
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: it done. I'm not gonna hear no full answer, and

573
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: I'm gonna keep pushing until I can't push no more.

574
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 2: I met Cal after he found that book, and that's

575
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 2: a book that came out in like nineteen oh three

576
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: something that is by a British guy. It's not a

577
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 2: Col's World, but if you read it, what it says

578
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 2: essentially is you can create your own reality by controlling

579
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 2: your thoughts. And Cal probably the most disciplined person I've

580
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: ever met in terms of thinking positive, and he had

581
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: enormous setbacks. It is not only does he get that letter,

582
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 2: but imagine Dwight is in one prison, Cal is in

583
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: another prison and they are suddenly put together. They suddenly

584
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:51,239
Speaker 2: come together at which Clinton correction Clinton Correctional Institution, and

585
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: they meet in the yard. So there's this guy who

586
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: has maybe has been put away for something, and then

587
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 2: there's this other guy who says, you know, I testified

588
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: you and I shouldn't have, and I mean, tell about

589
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 2: that meeting.

590
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: What made me more comfortable is the fact that I

591
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: received that letter that he confessed to the crime right

592
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: before I actually met him, because I don't think that

593
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: I possibly would have went to the yard to meet

594
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: him when he wanted to meet me. But I have

595
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: received the confession letter, and I seen him in the

596
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: mess hall and he told me to come to the yard,

597
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: and I really wanted to hear what he had to

598
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: say outside of the fact that he was now saying that,

599
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: you know, he committed the crime. And when I talked

600
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: to him, I felt CONTRISTI he started crying, and he

601
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: said the same thing. I'm on the tide looking out.

602
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: I want to do the right thing to get you

603
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: outcause you're in here for something you ain't do. And

604
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: we just started talking and I just wanted to get

605
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: certain answers from him on why he did what he

606
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: did it, and you know that's what we talked about.

607
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 2: I mean, so if you can imagine Dwight actually confesses

608
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: to a double murder that Cal's convicted for in this

609
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 2: prison yard, and then what happens is on the basis

610
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 2: of that, on the strength of that, Cal actually gets

611
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: a four forty hearing. So now he's back in court

612
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 2: and there's somebody else who's confessed to this crime. I mean,

613
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 2: Cal has to believe he's going home.

614
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 1: Except that on Frank Vigiano and Detective John Wall they

615
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 1: were very ambitious for the DA and they were not

616
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: going to allow that to happen because, like I said,

617
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: there was a witch hunt outpha. Me and Alan Caroon

618
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 1: was at the driving seat of that vehicle, and they

619
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: worked over time to make sure that Dwight Robinson took

620
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,479
Speaker 1: back that confession, right.

621
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 4: Which is another crazy aspect of this case, because because

622
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 4: you probably were thinking, well, okay, that's where this thing's

623
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 4: winding down. Now you got a written confession, he confess

624
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 4: to you verbally in writing, and he's coming to court

625
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 4: to the lawyer, and that should be saying this was

626
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 4: two thousand and three, right, yes, Yeah, So two thousand

627
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 4: and three he'd been in for ten years already, maybe eleven,

628
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 4: and you're going to court. And did you think when

629
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 4: you went to court for that hearing that you were

630
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 4: going home? Yes?

631
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: I really did? You know?

632
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 4: It sounded like it to me.

633
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. The next best thing the DNA is a confession,

634
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 1: you understand, And that's what I thought until he came

635
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: in and you know, he got understand and he started

636
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: doing what he'd do best. He started lying, so so.

637
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: You didn't know until he got on the stand that

638
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 2: he was going to take back his confession.

639
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: I think we did find out that he did take

640
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 1: it back. But to me, when I said I seen

641
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: him and how I felt with the meeting when I

642
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 1: met him, I didn't. I felt like I'll be the

643
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 1: DA or the detectives were pressuring them like they did.

644
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: But I felt like, still, he'll probably come to court

645
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,240
Speaker 1: and tell the truth, you understand. But he didn't.

646
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 4: It's it's a remarkable plot twist, and then your case

647
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 4: falls apart, right, I mean, he recants his recantation, right,

648
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 4: so he's reversed himself again. Now his credibility is really

649
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 4: out the window, right, because they's hard to tell when

650
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 4: somebody is lying when they're when, you know, when they

651
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 4: keep changing their story. I assume that they switched him

652
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 4: to a different prison at this point. Did you have

653
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 4: to go back to the same prison together after this?

654
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: No, before we even went to court, he had left

655
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: the facility that we were I think immediately after the

656
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 1: confession he left. And you know what's so funny about that?

657
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, but it just seemed like a

658
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: conspiracy too, because that naturally doesn't happen where they put

659
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: individuals that testify against you, with the guy, you know,

660
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: that type of stuff. It just seemed kind of funny

661
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: that they did that, you know, like they really wanted

662
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 1: me to really bury myself your father. You know, I

663
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: think about that all the time.

664
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 4: These dirty tricks are just I just don't I really

665
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 4: don't understand them. As we skip ahead, there were other recantations,

666
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,439
Speaker 4: There were twists and turns. Then twenty fifteen comes. Two

667
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 4: decades have passed, You've went behind bars, and now things

668
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 4: finally take a turn for the better. You've had Steve,

669
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 4: who's here with us now, who's been investigating your case,

670
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 4: diligently fighting for you. Do you have an innocence project

671
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 4: helping you you have pro bono attorneys who have taken

672
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 4: your case.

673
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 1: Myron Belldock, the greatest lawyer and the planet Earth that

674
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: ever woke this planet Earth.

675
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, his name is gold. So you got Myron. I mean,

676
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 4: you went from having the odds really stacked against you.

677
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 4: And it's a credit to you, by the way, because

678
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 4: it would have been really easy for you to just fold,

679
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 4: but instead, somehow or other, from inside this darkest place,

680
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 4: you manage to enlist literally the dream team behind you.

681
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

682
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 4: So twenty fifteen comes what happens.

683
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: I had the investigator working on a case and he

684
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: actually was able to get some new leads. And once

685
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: the new leads came out with the two sisters that

686
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: were actually like about ten to fifteen feet away from

687
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: the crime when it happened. They lived right where the

688
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: crime happened at and they actually seen Dwight do to crime.

689
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 4: There's a plot twist, no, I mean, and we've seen

690
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 4: that again and again too, where the witness is the

691
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,240
Speaker 4: actual killer and there's an incentive to lie right.

692
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: Once once I got that information, I think I was

693
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: in touch with Martin Tankliff at the time. I was

694
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: also in contact with Jabal Collins who was working for

695
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: Joe Rudin. I really wanted Joe ruden as my attorney

696
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 1: at the time, but I wrote Myron Bell Doc, the

697
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 1: great Myron Bell Doc, you know, who actually represented Hurricane

698
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: Carter and a whole lot of other people. And when

699
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: I wrote to him, he gave me his number so

700
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 1: I could call him and talk to him. And from

701
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: the initial start, man, I just loved this guy. He

702
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: treated me like family. He showed that I mattered, and

703
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: I don't think that at that point, I never had

704
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: an older male figure in my life that actually genuinely was,

705
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: you know, acted concerned for me or my well being.

706
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: And he was actually going for surgery at the time,

707
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: and he didn't even know if he would have been

708
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: able to take the case. And it was so funny that,

709
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 1: you know, I initially wanted Joe Rudin so bad, but

710
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 1: you know, Joe Rudin wanted his money. You know, he

711
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: didn't care about nothing, no innocence of any of that.

712
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 1: He wanted his money. But the funny thing was Myron

713
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 1: had told me that if I take the case, if

714
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: you could get somebody to assist me, then I feel

715
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: better because I'm getting ready to go through the surgery.

716
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: So I contacted Joel at that time, and once I

717
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 1: once he found out that Myron Belldock was on the case,

718
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: he was willing to jump on board now. So that

719
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 1: was kind of ironic. That's the first time that he

720
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: ever stayed on the phone with me for an hour,

721
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 1: you know. And actually Myron started to get better, he

722
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: started to heal better. And once I told him that,

723
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: you know, Joe Ruden would be willing to co counsel

724
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: with him, he said, don't worry about we don't need

725
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:32,839
Speaker 1: him no more. I'll be all right. I got I

726
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: got it, you know what I mean. And you know

727
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: that's how Myron was. And I had right after the surgery,

728
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 1: and it was very touching for me. I had called

729
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: him in the office. I don't know as it was

730
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 1: like eight pm and I thought he was being home recuperating.

731
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: Heling up. Myron was still in the office working, and

732
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: here it is this man he's almost eighty years old.

733
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: And you know, that meant a lot to me because

734
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: I never had attorney to that point that I felt

735
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: like was given my case. They're old, you understand here

736
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 1: it is. I had the best of the best when

737
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: it came to the attorney and I'm calling him now

738
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: and he's on my case. You understand that he should

739
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: have been home recuperating. I just never met a guy

740
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 1: like that, you know, amazing guy.

741
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 2: You know. I spent a little time with Myron. Cal

742
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 2: actually never met Myron. Didn't have that good fortune. But Myron,

743
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 2: I don't think he's so too much to say. He

744
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 2: came off his deathbed to really represent Cal. He had

745
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 2: prostate cancer, he had heart problems. When I met him,

746
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 2: he had a tumor behind his eye, so his left

747
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: eye actually bulged. He'd look at you, but that left

748
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 2: eye kind of veered off to the left at a

749
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 2: forty five degree angle. It was very disorienting. He's eighty

750
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: five years old, and he says, this could be my

751
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 2: last crusade. And I say to Myron, you're you know,

752
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 2: you're either a fool or a hero. And his response is,

753
00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 2: I think this case is going to make me live

754
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,919
Speaker 2: five years longer. So myrone is that's where he gets

755
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 2: his adrenaline from. And of course the tragedy is that

756
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 2: it doesn't make Myron live five years longer. And Cal

757
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 2: gets that. I guess you hear a rumor in prison

758
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,720
Speaker 2: and then you call me and I have to confirm

759
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 2: it for Cal. And you know, Cal is a extremely strong,

760
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 2: mentally disciplined, emotionally disciplined person. And by the way, physically

761
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 2: he can do one hundred push ups without stopping, so

762
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 2: you know, he's been in prison twenty years. He knows

763
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 2: his way around physical challenges, emotional challenges. And I confirmed

764
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 2: that Myron's dead, and you know, for Cal, and I mean, imagine,

765
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 2: this is the guy, his savior, his savior now has

766
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 2: has died, has passed.

767
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: And that was like the most crushing blow ever that

768
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 1: I ever felt, because I literally felt comfortable with my

769
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 1: life in iron hands. You know, I want you to understand,

770
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: I literally felt like that. I never felt like that

771
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 1: with nobody, you understand. So when I lost him, it's

772
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: like I didn't know where to go after that, Like

773
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: I finally got the person that was the best of

774
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: the best that I loved him outside of him being

775
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 1: my lawyer, you understand, I loved him as a person,

776
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: and when I lost him, I just didn't know how

777
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: to take that, you know, because it was like I

778
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: just came just so far and to be able to

779
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: get the guy to believe in me. You know, it

780
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: was just I just I couldn't help it. I just

781
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,760
Speaker 1: broke down. And I was in the yard and that

782
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: that really broke me down.

783
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 2: And you broke down on the phone with me. You

784
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 2: called me back, and actually I never heard that kind

785
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 2: of emotion. I mean you could. You couldn't speak exterially.

786
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 1: A person is not going to be able to read

787
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: emotions and my feelings because in jail, I felt like

788
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: I couldn't show no weakness. That's how it was in prison.

789
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: If you showed like the people in prison, there's a

790
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: lot of predators in there, and if they sense any

791
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,959
Speaker 1: type of fear, that's when they're coming for you. That's

792
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: just how it is. It's no other way. It's a

793
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: savage life in prison. I love this guy, Myron Belldock

794
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: so much that I couldn't help but to break down,

795
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 1: you understand. And I was in the yard with hundreds

796
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: of men, you understand, And that would be the last

797
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: place that I would want to break down, because here

798
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: I am with all of the wolves and stuff like that,

799
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: and I'm in the middle of that and I'm breaking down.

800
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: So I was overcome by emotions when I lost.

801
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: My man and actually I remember you you shouted over

802
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 2: your shoulder. I just had a loss in the family,

803
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 2: had a loss in the family, so that nobody you're exactly.

804
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: Also, Myron is the one that gave me the tenacity

805
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: and the fortitude in order to push on. When I

806
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: took you to the incident, when Myron was working on

807
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: my case at eight PM, and I started to read

808
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 1: up on everything about Myron. You know, Myron was a

809
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: guy that just didn't give up period, you know. And

810
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: I put his pictures up and like a mural of

811
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: Myron and the cell that I was in, and his

812
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,280
Speaker 1: spirit just came to me, like, you gotta keep pushing,

813
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: don't give up, be a fighter. And Myron actually fought

814
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 1: for my life while he was fighting for his own,

815
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 1: So I wasn't gonna get in a situation okay, now

816
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: I lost my top guy and just lay down. And

817
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,479
Speaker 1: just because that's something that I felt that he would

818
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: never do, so he kind of like put the tenacity

819
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:48,959
Speaker 1: in me to just continue to fight.

820
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 4: Cal Can you just take us through how you were

821
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 4: able to get your conviction reversed.

822
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 1: When I went to the supply my second four forty

823
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 1: and they entertained that evidence that substantiated that Dwight Robinson

824
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: actually committed a crime with the Clark sisters.

825
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,800
Speaker 2: Just to expand briefly, it's a dramatic moment. And cal

826
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 2: had always said, you know, there were a lot of

827
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 2: people there that night, the night of the shooting, and

828
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 2: the scene had never been canvas. Well, you know, the

829
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 2: cops did go door to door and they knock on

830
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:26,760
Speaker 2: the door of the Clark sisters, kimber Leah and Nikiah Clark,

831
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 2: and they don't want to get involved. These are the

832
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 2: two eyewitnesses to the crime, to the murder. But the

833
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 2: older sister says, no, we heard shots, that's it, and

834
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: that's what's in the police report. And why Well, years

835
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 2: later I asked them. They didn't want it was a

836
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 2: block full of drugs and murder. They're not going to

837
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 2: come forward. Two decades later, through a series of circumstances,

838
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 2: they resurface. They're in North Carolina and now they find

839
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 2: out that cow was convicted. They didn't know that they

840
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 2: had moved away like a year or so after the murders.

841
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 2: They find out and their kind of heartbroken, and frankly,

842
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: the younger one, who is the one on the street

843
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 2: twenty feet away. She feels guilty. She feels guilty that

844
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 2: she hasn't come forward and that this man, Calvin Buari

845
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 2: is in prison for something she knows he didn't do.

846
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 2: So there's this dramatic moment when they walk into court,

847
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 2: and particularly the younger one walks into court and I

848
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 2: remember the assistant prosecutor tried to pick her apart and

849
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 2: rattle her. Okay, it's the DA's job, and she is fiery.

850
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 2: She's got this nickname Evelina because when she gets challenged

851
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 2: and pushed, there's this kind of fierce character that lives

852
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 2: inside of her that comes out on the stand.

853
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: Thank God for that.

854
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 2: And there's this moment because we have the whole courtroom

855
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 2: micd and we have a mic right up near the

856
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 2: witness stand and you can't hear it in the courtroom,

857
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 2: but we picked up where the the it'sistant district attorney

858
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 2: is really prodding her and under her breath, eviliness says.

859
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 2: And then she returns fire, and you know she doesn't

860
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: give right and she says, you know, I soa who

861
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 2: did it? And it wasn't Calvin Bullar.

862
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: There you go, yeah, And I wanted to expand on

863
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: that too, and you know that was so grateful for

864
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 1: me too, because I always knew that after my first

865
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: initial four forty when the witnesses that actually came back

866
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 1: who lied that were criminals. You know, I knew what

867
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: type of games that these prosecutors play with the detectives.

868
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 1: And I was always adamant on Steve listen, I want

869
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: these witnesses this time to have attorneys like I was

870
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: not going to allow what happened to me previously happened

871
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: to me again. But it was it was overwhelming that

872
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: the personality in the spirit of this witness, because that

873
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: is the very type of witness that I needed to

874
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: stand up against these type tactics. You understand. And I

875
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: just want to say too, man, when you when you

876
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: believe in something, stand for it. If you feel something

877
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 1: was wrong, stand for it. And I'm happy that she stood.

878
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: She stood up, and she stood firm.

879
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the cops did go to her. She was unfortunately,

880
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 2: she was in a shelter for abused women. The cops

881
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 2: showed up, and that caused a lot of problems in

882
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 2: her in her life. But you know, cow was also

883
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 2: fortunate he got another attorney warrior, a guy named Oscar Mitchellan,

884
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 2: who really in that courtroom, I think helped her tell

885
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 2: her story and beat back the assistant DA when she

886
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: tried to replay the nineteen nineties and said, cow's a

887
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 2: bad dude. He was a drug dealer who strolled around

888
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 2: and mint coats. But you know it was true. That's

889
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 2: not what he was on trial for. He wasn't on

890
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 2: trial for being a wealthy drug dealer. And it was

891
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 2: Michellan who pointed it out. And Nikki who gets on

892
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,760
Speaker 2: the stand and fires back, who is the real killer?

893
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,399
Speaker 2: Who is the person who did the grind for rich

894
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 2: Cal's servant?

895
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 1: Time right, the tactics will utilized on the key and

896
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,959
Speaker 1: Kimberlea Clark. She was in the shelter at the time,

897
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,439
Speaker 1: and when you're in the shelter, you need some place

898
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: to stay. They went there and made it seem as

899
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 1: though she was being looked into for a double homicide.

900
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:28,760
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. And these are the tactics

901
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,359
Speaker 1: that these guys employ to make you know, life hell

902
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,320
Speaker 1: for a person that just want to fail the truth,

903
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 1: you understand. And she got kicked out of the shelter.

904
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: She got into an abusive relationship after I But like

905
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 1: I said, I was so proud they had the personality

906
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 1: that she stood up because normally with you know, average people,

907
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 1: they're not gonna want to be bothered period. They're gonna

908
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,879
Speaker 1: care more about their personal situation than wanting to help

909
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,879
Speaker 1: somebody else that you know, Okay, I want to help them,

910
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 1: but I don't want to go through the headaches that

911
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,879
Speaker 1: I'm going through with my personal life. Let me leave

912
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: that alone. That's what the person doing. And I'm so

913
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 1: proud that this woman stood up.

914
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, what's the question you hear today, what's

915
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 2: the upside for me? There's no upside for her, but

916
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 2: oh John, she stood up.

917
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

918
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 4: We end up two thousand and seventeen in Bronx State

919
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 4: Supreme Court. Yes, and that's the day you had been

920
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 4: waiting for since the early nineties. Absolutely, and tell me

921
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 4: about that. Can you take us back.

922
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: To that day when the judge vacated the conviction, I

923
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 1: had my room picture in front of me. I had

924
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: an actual Innocent magazine that came out on time. And

925
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: before that, the White Robinson was supposed to come in.

926
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: They couldn't produce the White Robinson. And then when I

927
00:51:55,040 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 1: went back to court, I just kept my eyes as

928
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: in myself fixated on in God we trust, and like

929
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: I said, I'm a firm believer in God, so that's

930
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: my number one attorney, and I believe that the right

931
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 1: thing was going to be done.

932
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 4: And actually that's what happened and that moment. So it

933
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 4: was Judge Eugene Oliver Jor And we're talking about State

934
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 4: Supreme Court. This is a big deal, right, I mean,

935
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 4: And how did that feel? After decades of fighting and

936
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 4: trying to get people to listen, to have a man

937
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,240
Speaker 4: in that position vacates your conviction.

938
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: It didn't really hit me at first. I think when

939
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 1: I went back to the bullpen, then it really really

940
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 1: like really just started to sink in, like I made it,

941
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 1: you know, I made it. I'm going on, Yeah, I'm

942
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 1: going home. And I got hit with another hurdle. I

943
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:05,880
Speaker 1: had to go back to the facility that I was

944
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: in and stayed for the weekend. And those two days

945
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 1: were the longest two days than the twenty two years

946
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,800
Speaker 1: that I did in prison because I didn't sleep and

947
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: it was just elate, and I really felt kind of

948
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: nervous because you know, you get a lot of hateration

949
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 1: in prison and I was kind of surprised that the

950
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:32,359
Speaker 1: people actually were more happy than upset here. So then

951
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 1: I got the day where I came home, which was

952
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 1: May eighth, which is tomorrow. That's my second birthday, my rebirthday,

953
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:43,879
Speaker 1: and it was sur real. I'm still looking at it.

954
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: And the nice day that we had a couple of

955
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: days ago. I stayed out till I think four in

956
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 1: the morning, just enjoying the breeze. And when I first

957
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 1: came home, my goal wasn't just to come home. My

958
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 1: goal was to come home and also build a legitimate

959
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 1: entrepreneurial life for myself. So I had goals out of

960
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 1: side of just coming home, you understand. So even to

961
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,359
Speaker 1: this day, I'm still enjoying the little things and it's

962
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: just still hit me because I ain't give myself a

963
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: chance to breathe. You know.

964
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 4: No, let's talk about that, because three hundred and sixty

965
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 4: four days as recording this podcast, as we're sitting here now,

966
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:25,760
Speaker 4: you haven't even been out a year, and what you've

967
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 4: got going on is going to make a lot of

968
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 4: people feel like, wow, this is crazy. I mean, you've

969
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 4: got multiple businesses that you started, right.

970
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: Yes, I have a van company that goes to prisons.

971
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 1: It's number one van company by the way. You know

972
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: in New York State where I had started a new

973
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 1: concept that I felt like when I was in prison,

974
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 1: a lot of my family members came to visit me,

975
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 1: and a lot of the van service they had the

976
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 1: old Yankee vans, and they wasn't clean, and they were decrepit,

977
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 1: and you know, regardless of what their family members wanted

978
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: to see their loved ones that weren't concerrated. So they

979
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:06,320
Speaker 1: dealt with it. And I felt like our family members

980
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 1: deserved the same quality service that a regular civilian to

981
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: get out in the street. So I started the concept

982
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 1: of the uber like prison visit services called riders. Van

983
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:24,320
Speaker 1: service is spelled ry d E r Z van service

984
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,919
Speaker 1: and my numbers eight four five two O four five

985
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 1: nine three zero.

986
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 4: And you service. How many prisons in New York State?

987
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: I service the downstate area Right now, I'm serving ten facilities.

988
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to downstate sing sing, Shewonga, Sullivan, Walkkill, wood Burn,

989
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: green Haven, what else the majorities of the facilities that

990
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 1: are close to New York At the present time, I'm

991
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: moving out further. We're supposed to be getting a bigger

992
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 1: bus to go to Elmira, Comstock all burned and the

993
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: further facilities up. I'm in the process of doing that

994
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 1: as I speak, and things are picking up. Doing it

995
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:08,839
Speaker 1: with the van service for the prisons to show you

996
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 1: know how important implementing family tides are, because they have

997
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: done statistics that shows that individuals when they're incarcerated and

998
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,359
Speaker 1: they loved ones check for them, they have a lower

999
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 1: rate of reciticism when they come home. And I also

1000
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 1: plan to have a van go to the female facility

1001
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: and beacon. I think that is for free and I

1002
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:33,800
Speaker 1: want to be able to give back to the female

1003
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 1: facilities because I feel like they don't get as much

1004
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 1: visits as the males do and they have kids and

1005
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 1: stuff like that, so things are probably much harder, and

1006
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 1: I want to be able to put it in rotation.

1007
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 1: Where is that I could go through the whole facility

1008
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 1: female facility and give each one of them female females

1009
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 1: a visit. But I want to find a social worker

1010
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:59,919
Speaker 1: that's intermediary just in case they need somebody to tin

1011
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 1: put their kids to be able to go see their

1012
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:05,240
Speaker 1: loved ones, because I know that may be a barrier

1013
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 1: as well because of the age of the child and

1014
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,839
Speaker 1: stuff like that. But that's another way that I plan

1015
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 1: to give back.

1016
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 4: So you got the service, which is it's great there

1017
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 4: you are doing good while you're doing good and really

1018
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 4: making life better for those people who are able to

1019
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 4: now visit their loved ones. I wouldn't be able to otherwise,

1020
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 4: and we know what a difference that makes to people

1021
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 4: on the inside.

1022
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 1: I think that one of the main reasons that I

1023
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: wanted to do that business is because I never wanted

1024
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 1: to allow myself to forget about where I came from,

1025
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 1: and by not forgetting that will constantly keep me away

1026
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 1: from doing anything that will put me back in that place.

1027
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 1: So I want to constantly be reminded of that, and

1028
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: that's that's how I do it.

1029
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think your future looks really bright. I mean,

1030
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 4: you are obviously a very smart and capable and entrepreneurial guy,

1031
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 4: and you know, reapplying your skills and the way that

1032
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 4: you are is extremely admirable, and I know you're going

1033
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 4: to be a big success, and I mean I'm looking

1034
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 4: forward to watching you. I know we were speaking earlier,

1035
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 4: we were talking about some innocent people that you left behind,

1036
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 4: and I want to try to bring attention to those cases.

1037
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 4: And it's entirely possible that by highlighting these innocent people

1038
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 4: that you left behind that you care so much about,

1039
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 4: we may be able to affect some change in their cases.

1040
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 4: So do you want to just talk about that briefly?

1041
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 1: I'll start off with some of the brothers that I

1042
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: know about case that I've just left in green Haven,

1043
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 1: that we were actually working on our cases together. That's

1044
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 1: why I'm so much familiar with their facts. You got

1045
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 1: a guy named Nelson Cruz that's currently in green Haven

1046
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 1: who was actually innocent. They did a New York Times

1047
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 1: article on him. He was actually caught up in the

1048
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 1: Lewis scar Seller situation and he just recently got denied

1049
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 1: on his full forty and I believe in him innocence.

1050
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 1: There's another guy named Paul Clark that actually has almost

1051
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 1: forty years in that was arrested by the mafia cops.

1052
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 1: So Paul Clark is one. He's currently at green Haven facility.

1053
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: And you know, you have another young brother that I

1054
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 1: met named Kyrie Frye who's also at green Haven. And

1055
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 1: Anthony Reid, but just recently me and Meek Mills was

1056
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 1: in correspondence with each other, and he just sent me

1057
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 1: the information of a person that he was inconcrated within

1058
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 1: Chester at the time. This brother has in twenty six

1059
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 1: years in prison and the only reason that he's currently there.

1060
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 1: His name is Eric Riddick. You can look up Eric Ridick.

1061
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 1: He's in Pennsylvania and Chester, PA and penitentiary. And this

1062
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 1: brother is actually innocent, and the only reason he's still

1063
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: in concerrated is because a procedural situation whereas that you

1064
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 1: have to have evidence in at a certain time, and

1065
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 1: if you we don't have actual innocent evidence. By the way,

1066
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 1: you know, he has evidence that proves his innocent, and

1067
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 1: he has expert evidence that proves his innocence. It's just

1068
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 1: appalling that he's still in prison after twenty six years,

1069
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 1: and this brother needs to be free.

1070
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 4: So we will post the names of all those individuals

1071
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 4: that Cal just highlighted on the website. Get involved and

1072
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 4: maybe we can together help some of these people get justice.

1073
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:31,439
Speaker 4: So we have a tradition here on wrongful conviction, which

1074
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 4: is that at the end of the show, I like

1075
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 4: to turn the microphone over to you, I do what

1076
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 4: I don't do very well, which is that I stopped

1077
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 4: talking and just let you share any final thoughts that

1078
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 4: you have, and Steve, I'm going to start with you

1079
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 4: so that we can have Cal be our cleanup hit

1080
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 4: or here. So Steve Fishman, any final thoughts?

1081
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 2: Well, first off, thanks for having me. It's an incredibly

1082
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:00,680
Speaker 2: important issue and I spent a lot of time on it,

1083
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 2: actually sometimes bit against my will, but you know, Cal

1084
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 2: being relentless whatever, I could never say no, even if

1085
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 2: I wasn't always saying yes. But Empire on Blood was

1086
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 2: really a work of passion and it tells Cal's story.

1087
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:20,400
Speaker 2: And I think what you get from it that you

1088
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 2: don't often get is you you get the thinking and

1089
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 2: the thoughts and the feelings of the prosecutor of Dwight Robinson,

1090
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 2: who not convicted but stands accused by eyewitness of having

1091
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:39,640
Speaker 2: done this murder, of the detective who talked Twight Robinson

1092
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 2: out of his confession. So you really end up with

1093
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 2: a sense of the criminal justice system. And I guess

1094
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 2: the last thing I'd say is, you know, yeah, I

1095
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 2: kind of took a journey with Cal, and sometimes I'm

1096
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 2: given some credit for having pushed his case forward, but

1097
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 2: you know, really all credit to Cal. I just think

1098
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 2: the kind of discipline and persistence in the face of

1099
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 2: enormous disappointment that would have not only disheartened people, but

1100
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 2: I think broken most people. I couldn't have persisted. I mean,

1101
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:23,160
Speaker 2: that kind of instinct and ability is very very rare,

1102
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 2: whether you're talking to people on the outside or people

1103
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 2: on the inside. So you know, all credit to cal

1104
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 2: for realizing is the beginning of his future.

1105
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 4: And now over to you, Calvin Vari, what do you

1106
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:37,960
Speaker 4: got for us?

1107
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I want to thank Steve for saying that,

1108
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,760
Speaker 1: because that means a lot to me because he didn't

1109
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 1: have to get involved with my case, but because of

1110
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:50,440
Speaker 1: my diligence, and I think that, you know, he just

1111
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 1: still he wanted to do the right thing. And it's

1112
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 1: good that we have people like that, whether you're a

1113
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 1: stranger or a friend or not. It's just that I

1114
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 1: feel like people are waking up and they want the

1115
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 1: right things to be done. I think that my last

1116
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 1: words is going to be like what Meek Mill said,

1117
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 1: it's all about justice reform, so these type of things

1118
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 1: don't happen to other individuals. I hope that I'm my

1119
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 1: example to the people that these things do occur and

1120
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 1: we just have to do something so they won't reoccur again.

1121
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 1: That's basically what I have to say.

1122
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 4: Well, now I just want to thank the audience for

1123
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 4: tuning in and listening. This has been an amazing journey.

1124
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 4: And thanks again to Steve Fishman and Calaboari for being

1125
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 4: a part of the show.

1126
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 1: Thank you Jason, Thank you Jason.

1127
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 4: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

1128
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 4: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud

1129
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 4: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll

1130
01:03:56,640 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 4: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

1131
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 4: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Inisonsproject dot org

1132
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 4: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like

1133
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 4: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

1134
01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 4: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

1135
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 4: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

1136
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 4: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

1137
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 4: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava

1138
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 4: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one