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Speaker 1: Karen Reid, Karen Reid, Karen Reid, y'all, this case right here,

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Speaker 1: y'all know it. She's accused of hitting her boyfriend, Boston

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Speaker 1: Police officer John O'Keefe.

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Speaker 2: With her SUV.

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Speaker 1: It was January the twenty ninth, twenty twenty two. She

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Speaker 1: left ing to die in the snow in a blizzard. Now,

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Speaker 1: that's what the prosecution is saying now. That first trial,

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Speaker 1: I predicted she was walking out of there. I did

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Speaker 1: not hear one thing that came out of that first

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Speaker 1: trial that led me to believe there was a murder.

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Speaker 1: We have an expert tonight to help us because, as

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Speaker 1: y'all know, she's being tried for a second time, which

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Speaker 1: I incorrectly predicted would not happen after the first trial.

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Speaker 1: I thought, there ain't no way they're gonna do this again.

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Speaker 1: They've lost the lead investigator. He wasn't fired yet, but

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Speaker 1: we all knew that was coming.

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Speaker 2: Y'all.

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Speaker 1: This case has got drinking, a taillight, a dog bite,

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Speaker 1: cell phones, chain of custody, text messages, search warrants, a blizzard,

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Speaker 1: more text messages. Our guest tonight is a former prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: a private defense attorney. Somebody that you know, host on

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Speaker 1: Law and Crime contributes to the Huffington Post. They have

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Speaker 1: worked sex crimes, murder, death penalty cases, forensic issues, civil

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Speaker 1: rights issues, employment issues, and if that ain't diverse enough,

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Speaker 1: gender harassment issues. This person is one half of a

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Speaker 1: power couple. Honey tonight. I am so honored to have

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Speaker 1: Linda Kenny Biden, miss thing. It's Jersey Girl, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Zone seven.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 4: Can I come back like every day? I kind of

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Speaker 4: need that. That's like fabulous, Thank you so much, Cheryl. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: this is this case we've been covering. My stream partner,

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Speaker 4: I Michael Bryant, who has an Emmy. You know, God

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Speaker 4: forbid I should cover anything on a streaming channel because

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Speaker 4: I'm a lawyer, right, I mean I know about streaming,

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Speaker 4: but I do know a little bit about trying cases,

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Speaker 4: and we've been covering on Justice Serve TV. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I never thought i'd see a case that I probably

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Speaker 4: knew as well as any of the cases I've ever tried. Because,

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Speaker 4: as you know, Cheryl, we're all into it, as is

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Speaker 4: the whole world apparently the world.

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Speaker 1: And that's the thing you have been first chair with

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Speaker 1: Phil Spector, Casey, Anthony, Aaron Hernandez, just to.

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Speaker 2: Name of couple.

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Speaker 1: But this case, I've never seen anything like it, especially

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Speaker 1: the way people are so rabbit about it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, I'm probably one of the few

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Speaker 4: commentators that have ever tried a case against Alan Jackson. Right,

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Speaker 4: I had the hung jury in the first Specter case

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Speaker 4: against him. We have a great mutual respect for each other.

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Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, I think he was caught

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Speaker 4: outside the courthouse saying he loves Lidgetti Botten. But we

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Speaker 4: spent six months in a courtroom battling, you know, and

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Speaker 4: I had the hung jury. He is a terrific attorney

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Speaker 4: and he knows also how to get attention to cases.

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Speaker 4: He's had a number of high profile cases since he

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Speaker 4: left the practice of being a prosecutor a DA and

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Speaker 4: turned to a criminal defense attorney. And those skills transfer,

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Speaker 4: especially when you're as good as Alan Jackson is. But

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Speaker 4: I think it's everything in this case. Right, it has everything.

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Speaker 4: But what doesn't it have. It doesn't have a matter

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Speaker 4: of death. As a matter of fact, it has a

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Speaker 4: cause of death, but the cause of death can't be

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Speaker 4: attributed to exactly how it happened. Right, you have the

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Speaker 4: state's medical examiners, two of them, who say that the

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Speaker 4: manner of death is undecided, but what they do know

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Speaker 4: is that it's consistent. It could be consistent and be

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Speaker 4: armed with dog bites, but it's not consistent with being

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Speaker 4: hit by an suv. So how do you get around that?

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Speaker 4: As a prosecutor, Cheryl, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know either, because I'm gonna tell you if

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Speaker 1: I could go back in time to twenty twenty one

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Speaker 1: and me and you could go to the plaza and

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Speaker 1: have a glass of wine, and I say to you, hey,

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Speaker 1: I've got a question for you as a former prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: If I've got a homicide and the lead detective never

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Speaker 1: went to the crime scene, and I don't have a

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Speaker 1: manner of death, and I don't have motive, and the

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Speaker 1: chain of custody is nothing. And the biggest statement that

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Speaker 1: was made that might be a confession nobody bothered to

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Speaker 1: write down.

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Speaker 2: Can you take that to trial? You'd laugh in my face.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, absolutely, there'd be no doubt about that. And you know,

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Speaker 4: you just recited a litany of things that are wrong

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Speaker 4: with this case in terms of.

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Speaker 3: Why you're trying it.

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Speaker 4: And there's a lot more because, as I say to people,

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Speaker 4: it's not whether you think she did it. It's not

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Speaker 4: whether you like her, it's not whether you hate Proctor.

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Speaker 4: The question is whether the state, the DA, the Commonwealth

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Speaker 4: can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she committed a crime.

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Speaker 4: I think let's start with the murder charge. No matter

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Speaker 4: what you think of this case, I think that's overcharged.

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Speaker 4: If I were the prosecutor, I'd say drop that charge.

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Speaker 4: Now drop it, because what are they going to try

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Speaker 4: to do, And it's clear they're still going to try

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Speaker 4: to do it? Say, well, she was mad at him,

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Speaker 4: he wanted to break up with her, you know, and

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Speaker 4: therefore she decided. Where there's all these people, one life

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Speaker 4: of everyone having a good time drinking, and boy did

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Speaker 4: they all drink, right, they all drunk. They all drank,

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Speaker 4: and they all a lot of them drank and drove

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Speaker 4: like it's like it's the thing up there, and uh,

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Speaker 4: you know, really murder, Come on, come.

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Speaker 1: On, there's nothing, there's nothing that would lead you to murder,

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Speaker 1: not one shred.

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Speaker 2: And here's the other thing.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know how it's ethical that you would

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Speaker 1: bring that back after the first trial.

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Speaker 4: And that's a real issue that we're having in prosecutions

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Speaker 4: one of the things I want to do when I think, uh,

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Speaker 4: this would be a good roundtable for Cheryl, for you

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Speaker 4: and I to put together. It has to also do

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Speaker 4: with the ACEP Rocky case. The ethical decisions that are

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Speaker 4: made when you have a terrible witness. Okay, a witness.

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Speaker 4: So for instance, an ACEP Rocky admitted to perjury. All right,

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Speaker 4: that was a relly, right, And how do you how

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Speaker 4: do you without having an ethics review or ethics council

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Speaker 4: review on these cases, bring these cases forward or bring

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Speaker 4: these cases back to a trial. I think it's something

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Speaker 4: that has to be addressed because I think it's a

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Speaker 4: lot more serious than people know about. They just see

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Speaker 4: the case and they say, well, you know, the prosecutor

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Speaker 4: wouldn't bring in unless they had a case. Well, you

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Speaker 4: know that prosecutors bring cases sometimes they shouldn't be brought,

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Speaker 4: and defense attorneys sometimes win cases they shouldn't win.

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Speaker 3: You know, it goes both ways.

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Speaker 4: But the ethical duty always stays with the prosecutor on

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Speaker 4: whether or not the prosecution is ethical. And I think

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Speaker 4: here we have some issues with the in my opinion,

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Speaker 4: with bringing the special prosecutor Hank brettan who's a very

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Speaker 4: good attorney, despite what people say, who's a very good attorney,

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Speaker 4: and how he's trying the second case, I really have

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Speaker 4: some problems with it.

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Speaker 1: I do too, and I'll tell you I'm one of

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Speaker 1: those people. I rarely, you know, use words like accused

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Speaker 1: or you know, he might have or he could have possibly.

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Speaker 1: I tend to talk like the person did it, because

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Speaker 1: I would not push a case, I would not turn

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Speaker 1: something over to the DA that I wasn't one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent confident. So to me, you know, when I look

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Speaker 1: at the first trial, and I watched as much as

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Speaker 1: anybody probably watched, I was stunned that there was a

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Speaker 1: murder charge.

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Speaker 2: I was stunned.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and the lead investigator, we called him Undersice save TV,

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Speaker 4: the Procter Factor.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yep, those texts were terrible.

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Speaker 4: But he decided, without having an autopsy, yet, without ever

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Speaker 4: going to the scene, without interviewing anybody, he decided sixteen

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Speaker 4: hours later that this was a murder and that she

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Speaker 4: hadn't done it.

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Speaker 3: She done did it?

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Speaker 4: So to speak right, without anything, without anything, uh and

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Speaker 4: all and uh.

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Speaker 3: It just it.

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Speaker 4: It boggles my mind that, uh the Commonwealth who by

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Speaker 4: the way, I had great respect for when I was

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Speaker 4: in Hernandez. I actually tried Hernandez in Suffolk County, which

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Speaker 4: is right next to Norfolk County, uh and all, and

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Speaker 4: the prosecutors there were extremely uh ethical. They they tried

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Speaker 4: a case. You know, we could banter with them after

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Speaker 4: the trial at the court. And it was a serious case.

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Speaker 4: You know, Aaron was accused of a double homicide after

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Speaker 4: he'd already been convicted of a murder and we ended

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Speaker 4: up with not guilty. So and so the prosecutors, I

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Speaker 4: would say, had an edge up, but they had an

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Speaker 4: edge up ethically. And then the jury just looked at

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Speaker 4: the facts and said, no, you didn't prove the case

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Speaker 4: beyond a reasonable doubt. Here in Norfolk County, they're out

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Speaker 4: to get her. They've been out to get her, uh

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Speaker 4: and and you know, it's it's really the whole thing.

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Speaker 4: And that that's why I think there's this free Karen

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Speaker 4: Reid movement. And then you have I called the side show.

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Speaker 4: But in all these cases, the side show contributes to

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Speaker 4: what's going on, and that is there is a journalist, blogger,

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Speaker 4: Aidan Carney who gets a lot of people's ire up

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Speaker 4: is he's not shy about using words that maybe you

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Speaker 4: and I wouldn't use. But they're now going after him

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Speaker 4: for intimidation of witnesses. And one of them is like,

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Speaker 4: somebody testified and said tell the truth and that was

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Speaker 4: considered that's an intimidation charge.

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Speaker 3: I kid you not, Okay.

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Speaker 4: So now they're trying to say that Karen Reid and

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Speaker 4: he had some type of collusion because they were talking

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Speaker 4: she was his source as a journalist, and trying to

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Speaker 4: bring that in for some kind of state of mind.

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Speaker 3: But state of mind for what I mean.

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Speaker 4: If you think you're being incorrectly charged, if you think

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Speaker 4: you're innocent and they're going after you, you're going to

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Speaker 4: use everything you can to try to get a not

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Speaker 4: guilty and including any help you can get from people.

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Speaker 1: Again, I know the word allegedly should be used, I

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Speaker 1: get it, But sometimes if you are confident, like with

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Speaker 1: OJ Simpson, I don't think I ever used the word

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Speaker 1: allegedly when I was talking about the double murder he

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Speaker 1: was charged with.

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Speaker 2: I spoke as though he did it.

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Speaker 1: Karen Reid. I've never done that because again, where is it?

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Speaker 1: Where is any evidence?

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Speaker 4: And both of us, look, I call it as I

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Speaker 4: see it. People are stunned a lot of times because

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Speaker 4: I was a prosecutor. There's done when I say, oh,

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Speaker 4: no issue that person is, I mean, I have no issue.

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Speaker 4: I have no problem with that.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but on.

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Speaker 4: This one we should all be having a problem. And

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Speaker 4: now you know, we see in the second trial that

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Speaker 4: the Commonwealth has hired the special prosecutor attorney named Haak Brennan,

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Speaker 4: who represented what he Bolger, you know, not not such

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Speaker 4: an innocent guy obviously, and and they're going after h

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Speaker 4: like like yesterday, not yesterday, but all week in court.

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Speaker 4: There's been in the past two weeks has been motion

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Speaker 4: hearings and the prosecutor has been bringing in is going

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Speaker 4: to bring in a former police officer who retired and

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Speaker 4: went into dog training as an expert in pattern recognition

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Speaker 4: for dog bites. Uh, they're good. You know, they're trying

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Speaker 4: to do a forensic odentology on a dog Chloe, and

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Speaker 4: Chloe is the German shepherd that was had bitten two people,

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Speaker 4: sent people to the hospital and was rehomed right after

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Speaker 4: the John O'Keefe was found deceased in the owner's yard.

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Speaker 4: And they're trying to do like forensic odentology on a

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Speaker 4: dog and match that. Now, Cheryl, you know that forensic

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Speaker 4: identology for those who don't know, it's a fancy word

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Speaker 4: for dentists, all right, And and it's about whether or

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Speaker 4: not there's bitemark matching. And it's been the subject of

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Speaker 4: a lot of convictions that have been reversed, in a

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Speaker 4: lot of discussion about whether it's junk science or not.

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Speaker 4: But that's in human bites. Can you imagine in a

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Speaker 4: dog bite?

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Speaker 1: No, not at all. I looked at what they did

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Speaker 1: in the first trial, but I was stunned by what

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Speaker 1: they didn't do. For example, the glass shards, the pieces

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Speaker 1: of broken tail light, they did not line them up

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Speaker 1: with the injuries. And they didn't do that because I

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Speaker 1: don't think they can. If you look at the injuries

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Speaker 1: to his arm, you have several parallel lines parallel that

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Speaker 1: are going in different directions. There's not one piece of

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Speaker 1: glass that has two pronged out pieces of glass that

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Speaker 1: could make that incision. There's just not, especially not in

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Speaker 1: different directions at the same time, all parallel.

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Speaker 4: Right, you're absolutely right, and you know he was holding

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Speaker 4: a glass. And then you have the polycarbonate red tail light,

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Speaker 4: which now has a I think is a last count

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Speaker 4: with forty six pieces, forty seven pieces and forty eight pieces.

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Speaker 4: I've lost track. We actually adjusted to their TV, bought

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Speaker 4: that tail light and to break it you had to

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Speaker 4: like hammer.

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Speaker 2: Hammer it all right.

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Speaker 3: And plus you know what got me.

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Speaker 4: I started looking at this case and we started discussing

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Speaker 4: this case when I was still hosting it Law in Crime,

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Speaker 4: And the first day I was on there was there

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Speaker 4: was about evidence collection in red solo cups and a

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Speaker 4: leaf blower, I mean, talk about blowing any evidence away.

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Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, yep.

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Speaker 1: And that's the thing when you're putting a case up,

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Speaker 1: you want to put your very best there. Well, again,

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Speaker 1: we have a lead detective that never went to the

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Speaker 1: scene off the back, never secured the home, didn't take

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Speaker 1: cell phones, didn't take witness statements for many of the

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Speaker 1: people inside the house.

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Speaker 2: They have yet to.

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Speaker 1: Be able to explain to me or anybody else how

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Speaker 1: you have a police officer and a friend dead on

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Speaker 1: your front yard and you don't come outside.

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Speaker 4: Right And they never secured the scene either. And when

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Speaker 4: the scene was first was first looked at, there was

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Speaker 4: no polycarbonate anything from the tail light. And the only

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Speaker 4: time that later on they start appearing like for weeks

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Speaker 4: after the car had been taken into the sally Port

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Speaker 4: when one officer said that the taillight only had a

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Speaker 4: small crack with a little pinty piece out, which would

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Speaker 4: be consistent with her hitting the other car when she

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Speaker 4: backed into John oald Keef's car when she was at home.

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Speaker 4: Interestingly enough, the Commonwealth does not have that officer on

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Speaker 4: its witness list going to the second trial.

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Speaker 3: He testified in the first trial.

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Speaker 4: The defence now has him on the witness list because

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Speaker 4: they try to show that, you know, the scene was

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Speaker 4: made better for the state afterwards. But how you dom cases?

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Speaker 4: How do you not secure a scene they said it's windy,

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Speaker 4: Well then you put cop cars around.

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Speaker 2: It, right, that's right.

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Speaker 3: How do you not get a warrant.

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Speaker 4: When somebody is dead on someone's front yard to say

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Speaker 4: from a judge, to say it's in the house right here.

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Speaker 4: It's very small. If he'd ever've been there, it's very tiny.

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Speaker 4: It's it's not a large area. When you look at it,

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Speaker 4: it's you know, it's like regular houses on a regular street.

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Speaker 4: How are you not going to warrant to go in

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Speaker 4: to look at what's inside the house when there's a

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Speaker 4: dead person on there. And you know, I say to people, look,

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Speaker 4: the state could try this case with this theory. You

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Speaker 4: know that maybe she calls him to fall he was drunk,

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Speaker 4: she never looked back, she never called. Maybe they could

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Speaker 4: try it on that theory, kind of like a negligent

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Speaker 4: manslaughter of sorts. But also so the defense could try

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Speaker 4: it on that theory too, that you know, he was

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Speaker 4: really drunk, right, and he fell backwards being drunk, hit

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Speaker 4: his head because he was so drunk. And then you know,

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Speaker 4: the people in the house who were supposed to were

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Speaker 4: waiting for him, they don't come out and look for him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's crazy to me.

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Speaker 1: And after all the other first responders show up, they

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Speaker 1: still don't come outside. I don't know how that's possible.

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Speaker 1: I still will never be able to rationalize in my

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Speaker 1: head how you have a friend of yours dead in

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Speaker 1: the front yard of your home and you're not out there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I agree, I agree with you. I agree with you.

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Speaker 4: And they were cops. They were all cops, you know,

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Speaker 4: or former cops. I should say cops are former cops

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Speaker 4: or related to cops. I mean, it's kind of incestuous.

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Speaker 1: It is, But you know you have a unique talent

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Speaker 1: on this case is that you can look at it

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Speaker 1: from both sides. You can look at it as a

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Speaker 1: prosecutor and a defensive So when you say there are holes,

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Speaker 1: when you say there are problems, when you're saying this

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Speaker 1: ain't adding up, people really need to listen to you, because, again, y'all,

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Speaker 1: I am not team Karen or team John. I'm just

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Speaker 1: telling you as somebody that's been in this business for

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Speaker 1: forty two years, I have never in my life seen

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Speaker 1: a homicide case with a lead detective that didn't go

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Speaker 1: to the scene, doesn't have chain of custody, has a

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Speaker 1: confession that nobody bothered to write down, has glass they

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Speaker 1: can't explain, has an injury they can't explain, has a

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Speaker 1: tail like busted they can't explain. I mean, the list

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Speaker 1: goes on and on, and for everybody walking around out there,

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Speaker 1: it ought to scare you a little bit that this

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Speaker 1: has not just gone to trial one time, but twice.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's definitely going to trial. And you know,

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Speaker 4: and we talk about the ethics of prosecutors, and a

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Speaker 4: lot of people like to talk about the ethics of

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Speaker 4: defense attorneys.

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Speaker 3: The ethics apply to both sides. And what we have

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Speaker 3: here too.

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Speaker 4: As I said, you have two of the state's medical

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Speaker 4: examiners who said they can't say the matter of death

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Speaker 4: was homicide. They just can't, Okay, they can't even say

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Speaker 4: that the injuries are consistent with the SUV colliding into

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Speaker 4: John O'Keefe. All right, So that's like two strikes right there.

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Speaker 4: And then the Feds in an investigation. We really don't

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Speaker 4: know what the investigation was about. Everyone can speculate it

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Speaker 4: was about Karen Read, it was about the Canton police.

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Speaker 4: It could have been about something totally different, you know,

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Speaker 4: you know, it couldn't be anything relating to anyone in

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Speaker 4: the Canton Police Department or not. And they hired independent

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Speaker 4: biomechanical engineers who case the conclusion there's no way the

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Speaker 4: car had hit John O'Keefe. And now, you know, the

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Speaker 4: judge for some reason has severe concerns because after the

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Speaker 4: Feds had hired people, and you and I know how

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Speaker 4: the FEDS work. They don't share during their investigation with anybody,

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Speaker 4: and they don't tell you what's going on. They you know,

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Speaker 4: you you can give them stuff, but they ain't giving

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Speaker 4: you anything. I remember as a prosecutor when I had

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Speaker 4: to get something from uh, you know, the FEDS, and

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Speaker 4: they were like, no, no, I'm sorry, we have more custody.

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Speaker 3: We're not letting you know when they're coming out there,

359
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Speaker 3: and I.

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Speaker 4: Assume they were being used as snitches. They just don't

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Speaker 4: give you anything, you know, all so so fine. So

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Speaker 4: when the investigation ends, they give they Then they do

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Speaker 4: give the defense the access to two reports that say

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Speaker 4: that are consistent with what the medical examiner said. Right,

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Speaker 4: the car can't be the SUV can't be considered the

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Speaker 4: cause of death. They don't have enough evidence, they don't

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Speaker 4: have a manner of death as homicide. And now the

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Speaker 4: prosecution after the judge said she had severe concerns because

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Speaker 4: there was a bill that was sent subsequent to the

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Speaker 4: trial in July, and the defense paid it, and I'd

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Speaker 4: pay it too, because at that point, you know, even

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Speaker 4: though they didn't paid by the government, they had testified

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Speaker 4: for the defense. You're going to need them in the

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Speaker 4: second trial. So there's no discovery at that point to

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Speaker 4: turn over, right, there's nothing. You're not in a trial

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Speaker 4: at that point, you're not going to go running and say, hey,

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Speaker 4: I got a bill from them. You know it came

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Speaker 4: after the trial, blah blah blah, and they're using it

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Speaker 4: to try to instead say well, there's unethical defense attorneys here,

380
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Speaker 4: and there's unethical experts in these ARCA people who were

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Speaker 4: hired by the Feds because they're trying to make they

382
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,119
Speaker 4: knew they were trying to build. The judge seems to

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Speaker 4: have brought into it without ever hearing from the experts

384
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Speaker 4: to say, hey, no, that's not you know, you know

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Speaker 4: how businesses run. If I'm a business and I ain't

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Speaker 4: being paid by somebody anymore and I had to go testify, yeah,

387
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Speaker 4: of course I'm setting a bill right for my time

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Speaker 4: to whoever's still around, because that's how businesses make.

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Speaker 3: A living and get paid.

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Speaker 4: So but they've imputed this wrongdoing, which I think is

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Speaker 4: really incorrect.

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Speaker 3: I think is really wrong.

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Speaker 4: And now in order to get around all those issues,

394
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Speaker 4: the state has hired a neurosurgeon to get around the

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Speaker 4: manner of death by talking about the mechanics of the injury.

396
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Speaker 4: Is a way around the manner of death?

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Speaker 3: Now? Is that ethical?

398
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Speaker 4: Okay, Well we can have that discussion, because maybe that's

399
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,399
Speaker 4: maybe the judge would have great concerns about that. The

400
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Speaker 4: trying to get around their own people who hired by

401
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 4: the state, hired by the FEDS, with somebody who shouldn't

402
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Speaker 4: be calling a manner of death, and quite frankly, as

403
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Speaker 4: you and I know, legally would never be able to

404
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Speaker 4: say a manner of death on a death certificate.

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Speaker 1: You know, you make me think of what's coming, and

406
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Speaker 1: what's coming is a battle of the experts. Now you

407
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Speaker 1: are married to doctor Michael Baden. Everybody as who that is.

408
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Speaker 1: I can only imagine the discussion y'all have at dinner,

409
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Speaker 1: and they are next level.

410
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Speaker 2: I'm just gonna say, because both.

411
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Speaker 1: Of y'all are at the height of your game.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's all there.

413
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Speaker 3: Is to it.

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Speaker 4: Well, dinner parties are interesting, but you know, we keep

415
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Speaker 4: Michael's very close upd about his cases, which I try

416
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 4: to explain to people generally unless say these opens is

417
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,880
Speaker 4: speaking about them, and I tell the funny story because

418
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 4: it's related to read in a way. There's a town

419
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Speaker 4: called Stoughton, and there was a young woman who was

420
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Speaker 4: killed several years ago, who died several years ago named

421
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Speaker 4: Sandra Birchmore. It turns out that the medical examiner and

422
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Speaker 4: one of the detectives in the Karen Reid case that's

423
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Speaker 4: name has come up. Lieutenant Fanning was in charge of

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Speaker 4: an investigation into Miss Birchmore's death and concluded it was

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Speaker 4: a suicide, that she was pregnant with the child of

426
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Speaker 4: another office served from one of the police departments, not

427
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 4: can but another police department. I believe it was in Stoughton,

428
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Speaker 4: if I recall. But this was has ended up being

429
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 4: a big deal because it turns out Michael had been

430
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 4: hired by the civil Attorneys to review the case and

431
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Speaker 4: he concluded, susy, guys, this ain't no suicide, baby, Okay,

432
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Speaker 4: this is a homicide. I never knew anything about it.

433
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Speaker 4: One day, we're at our cabin upstate and it's small,

434
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Speaker 4: but my office is downstairs. His office is upstairs, and

435
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 4: I hear the phone start going, going, going, And it

436
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 4: turns out that the defense of the Civil Attorneys had

437
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 4: released his report apparently to the Feds and all that

438
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 4: said this was a homicide, and the Feds had gotten

439
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 4: involved and hired their own forensic pathologists and confirmed that

440
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,360
Speaker 4: it was a homicide. And as a result, there's been

441
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 4: an officer who's been arrested by the federal government because

442
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 4: none of the state prosecutors, none of the state's attorneys

443
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 4: the person or even concluded it was homocide. And so

444
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,479
Speaker 4: you know, I never knew about it, and I never

445
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 4: know he's in the case. I never heard about the

446
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 4: case because he doesn't talk about them to me. And

447
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 4: people find that funny. Once they're in the news and

448
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 4: he's free to talk, he can talk. But if he's

449
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 4: hired by somebody, I don't.

450
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 3: Hear a word. You know.

451
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: Well, there's your ethical lesson for the day, y'all. But again,

452
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: if the two of y'all just hear about a case,

453
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: y'all can both speak to it at a level most

454
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: people cannot. And whether you're involved in the case or not,

455
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 1: I'm saying, when I think of this case, when I

456
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 1: watch the first trial, you want to.

457
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 2: Talk about being out gunned.

458
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: The state was nowhere near the level that the defense

459
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: was as far as.

460
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 4: Experts, just even as far as how you presented it,

461
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 4: how you cross examined. So I wonder, I wonder. You know,

462
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 4: the States said that they were going to present everything upfront.

463
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 4: They presented the medical examiner all up front, which is,

464
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 4: you know, a good way to do it if you

465
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 4: don't have a cause and manner of death that is

466
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 4: properly attributable, or if you have a cause of death,

467
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 4: but you know, the cause of death can't be a

468
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 4: tribute to the to the the vehicle, to the suv,

469
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 4: to the car in any way. So they decided, and

470
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 4: I thought, well, that's pretty you know that mister Lowley

471
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 4: is pretty ethical on that, on that, and then he's

472
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 4: stuck with Proctor, right, He's stuck with Proctor at that point.

473
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 4: But you know, you know, Procter was like, oh, I'm

474
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 4: so sorry. These texts were terrible. These were texts were awful. Yeah,

475
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 4: the fact that you know, I talked about her digestive issues,

476
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 4: which were serious. She apparently had like ten surgeries in

477
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 4: a very demeaning way, and oh yeah, it was very unprofessional.

478
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 4: But he presented him because I guess they thought it'd

479
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 4: be fine to present him with that in law. But

480
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 4: now I think they got so embarrassed that they didn't

481
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 4: take any action against him. And some of the people

482
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 4: on the witness list were on these horrible texts. No

483
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 4: one took any action against him until after this trial,

484
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 4: or you know, maybe at the end of the trial,

485
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 4: after he testified. So my question is, is the state

486
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 4: going to try to try this next case without using

487
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:26,719
Speaker 4: Michael Proctor.

488
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 1: Right, Well, here's the thing. The defense is gonna call him.

489
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: So he's got to come back one way or the other,

490
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: because there's no way they're going to let that go.

491
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: Because those text messages alone. Forget how he treated the

492
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: crime scene in the case. Forget that he had his

493
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: mind made up within a less than a day. Forget

494
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: all that. Forget that the medical examiner told him it

495
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: looks like the guy's been in a fight. He went

496
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: somewhere else with it. Forget all that. Just in the

497
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: text messages to me when he talks about her help

498
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,360
Speaker 1: that he hope he finds nudes, that he calls her

499
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 1: derogatory names, says she's crazy, and then talks about hope

500
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: she commits suicide.

501
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 2: There is no way.

502
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: Those twelve people are not affected by one of those things.

503
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: Somebody in their friends or family group has committed suicide.

504
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 1: Somebody has mental health issues. Somebody's had somebody send a

505
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 1: nude of them to somebody they should not have, just

506
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 1: to embarrass or intimidate or humiliate them.

507
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 2: Somebody's got help issues. So forget HIPPA.

508
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: Forget you're violating that just as a human being, he,

509
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: I believe, is going to have every single one of

510
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: those juror members angry at him for it's over with.

511
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,719
Speaker 4: I think the defense can get those text messages in. Well,

512
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 4: they're gonna first of all, they're going to call Proctor,

513
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 4: I mean, and he'll be he'll be hostile. He'll be

514
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 4: easy to declare a hostile witness. But even if he's not,

515
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,719
Speaker 4: they get them in did you send this? Did you

516
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 4: send that? And I guess what the state's going to

517
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 4: do is try to say that no one who received

518
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 4: those messages were affected by them, and how they proceeded

519
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 4: with their investigation.

520
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 3: How can you not be how can you have any

521
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 3: not be? You know? Yeah, and you're right.

522
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 4: You brought up a point that the medical examiner said,

523
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 4: look like he's in a fight.

524
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 3: It looks like these injuries.

525
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 4: Were caused by a fight, not by a motor vehicle impact.

526
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 4: So you know, she wasn't in a physical fight with him,

527
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 4: that's for sure.

528
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 3: So who was?

529
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 4: If those were the injuries, if that's what they were

530
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 4: caused by, who was?

531
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: And he can't take some people off the list because

532
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: he didn't interview him, He didn't look at their fists.

533
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: He didn't look at their knuckles.

534
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 4: Right, And I think there was some testimony that one

535
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 4: of the members inside the house had some bruising or

536
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 4: some type of infirmity to the knuckles, the knuckles.

537
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: Ye, I mean, it's just maddening when you think about it.

538
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: I mean, they got rid of the dog, they got

539
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,959
Speaker 1: rid of carpet, they got rid of flooring, and then

540
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: they just moved.

541
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 5: House, right, I mean, come on, you're from New Jersey,

542
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 5: you know, you know that there are stories where you

543
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 5: hear this person did this and this and this and

544
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 5: a cover up, and it is so outlandish that it's laughable.

545
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: Here. It almost sounds.

546
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: Like this is a bad made for TV movie, right right,

547
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: And you.

548
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 4: Know, and you know, you look at it and you say, hey,

549
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 4: look what if this wor just an accident?

550
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 3: What he felt?

551
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 4: He was drunk and he fell, he tried to get

552
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 4: up and he fell again, you know, yeah, and A

553
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 4: and he hit his head and then they come out

554
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 4: at two o'clock and find him dead somehow they're looking

555
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 4: for him.

556
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 3: What if they did do that.

557
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 4: I'm making this up, but A as a hypothetical, hypothetically,

558
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 4: and they find their dead friend, A cop on their lawn.

559
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 4: There could just be a cap were up without even

560
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 4: being you know, been responsible for it, because hey, I'm

561
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 4: going to get blamed for a murder here. He's dead

562
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,479
Speaker 4: on our long Hence, you know, how so long does

563
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 4: it take for someone to die in the snow? Type

564
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 4: google right question, so you know you can you have

565
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 4: hypotheticals that and I'm sure the jury probably went through

566
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 4: a lot of those hypotheticals.

567
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 3: You know, they're in there saying what.

568
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: The heck right? Right?

569
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: And they made it clear the person they trusted the

570
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: most was the man in the street sweeping, right. They

571
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: kind of questioned the police officers on both sides, They

572
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: questioned witnesses on both sides, and family members. This was

573
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: the most honest person they thought in the whole thing.

574
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: And he said he wasn't there.

575
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 4: And the defense found him the street sweeper, and he

576
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 4: apparently isn't on the prosecution's witness list this time now,

577
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 4: and he's on the defence witness list.

578
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 3: And the funny thing about that.

579
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 4: Is that there was in the first trial and this

580
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 4: is not going to be allowed on this trial because

581
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 4: it's been agreed to actually buy the Comwealth investigator Proctor,

582
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 4: the lead investigator who's now been terminated by the Massachusetts

583
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 4: State Police, found guilty of two charges for specifications. One

584
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 4: of them, by the way, is that he brought disrepute

585
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 4: on the name of the Massachusetts State Police.

586
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 3: That one doesn't do.

587
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 4: Anything for me, quite frankly, because that's like a cover

588
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 4: your ass one, right, you know, to me. But apparently

589
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 4: mister Yannetti, who's a well known defense attorney up there

590
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 4: and very well liked, met the street sweep and met

591
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,959
Speaker 4: up with him so they could go to the scene

592
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 4: at a school parking lot. Right at the edge of

593
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,959
Speaker 4: the school parking lot. It happened to be where somebody's

594
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 4: relative was related to one of the Alberts I believe

595
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 4: in the house. Therefore, therefore, Proctor had said that he

596
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 4: hates Yanetti because he thought that somehow Yanetti was trying

597
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 4: to intimidate his family by going to the place where

598
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 4: his family member worked. The witnesses the family member worked,

599
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 4: his friend's family member worked. He never went into the

600
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 4: mister never went into the school, never talked to anybody school.

601
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 4: All he was doing was meeting up with the parking

602
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 4: lot to meet the street sweepers. They could go take

603
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 4: him on the route that the street sweeper went that night,

604
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 4: which is something quite frankly, the prosecution should have found and.

605
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: Done right exactly exactly.

606
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: And you know, let's talk about Proctor being fired finally,

607
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: because I think this took a little bit of time.

608
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: It should not have taken this long, because his own

609
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,719
Speaker 1: testimony should have been enough to terminating.

610
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 3: I agree with you.

611
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 4: I agree with you, and I think too, you know,

612
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 4: and I say this as a lawyer, I'm assuming, I'm

613
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 4: assuming that this just didn't all come about right at

614
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 4: the testimony, that this something was brewing, all right, because

615
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 4: he's also was a name in the Birchmore case tangentially,

616
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 4: I don't know how it was connected, but tangentially because

617
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 4: it was from a different police department, and you know,

618
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,760
Speaker 4: you have that federal investigation that he did testify. Apparently

619
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 4: he didn't take the fifth on. So I'm assuming that

620
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,240
Speaker 4: there was something brewing. And if there was something brewing

621
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 4: in terms of taking action against him, and defense wasn't

622
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 4: told at that time, that could have been Brady material

623
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 4: that was not disclosed. So I'm sure that defense would

624
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 4: be on this time now that we have this trial

625
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 4: board finding of you know that led to his termination.

626
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 3: You know, and you know you think about it too.

627
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 4: How silly you gave up your whole career, you gave

628
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 4: your pension, and now you've hurt your family have come

629
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 4: out to support you for what?

630
00:34:59,440 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: For what?

631
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 2: Yep? Because here's the thing.

632
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: If she was responsible in any way for his dad,

633
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: they could have got there, but they would have gotten

634
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: there with the proper charge. And if she's not responsible,

635
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:17,439
Speaker 1: then we need to accept that and move on. If

636
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 1: it was a horrible accident, that's what it was.

637
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 4: If it's a horrible accident that you think rises to

638
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 4: the level of manslaughter under the wall, then charge it

639
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 4: as that.

640
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 3: You know, she called him John O'Keeffe.

641
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 4: And you know, when I say this, I should remind

642
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 4: everybody just because we're saying, Karen Reid, it can't be

643
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 4: proven that she did anything.

644
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 3: That does not mean.

645
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 4: That both of us or anyone who talks about this

646
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 4: does not want justice from mister O'Keeffe. We want to

647
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 4: know what really happened to him. Was it just an

648
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 4: accident that he fall in his head?

649
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 3: Was he beaten up?

650
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 4: You know, did somehow she caused his death in the

651
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 4: motor vehicle? We want to know what happened. But the

652
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 4: problem is this has been handled so poorly. I don't

653
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 4: think anyone's ever gonna know. But that doesn't mean we

654
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 4: don't feel for the family of Officer O'Keefe. We don't

655
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 4: feel for the fact that for his death there are

656
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 4: two separate things. There's this whole idea that because you're

657
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 4: saying somebody should not be found guilty, that you're not

658
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 4: then seeking justice for the decedent. That's simply not true.

659
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 1: Amen, And thank you for saying it that way, because

660
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: especially for the O'Keefe family, this is why to me,

661
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 1: what they're doing is horrible because I think they're gonna

662
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 1: lose again. I think they're gonna get kicked in the

663
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: gut again. And y'all, even if she's found guilty of something,

664
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: there's gonna be appeals. This thing is not over for them.

665
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: I'm telling you it's not gonna be over because now

666
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 1: that Proctor has been fired. In that report they said

667
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:01,280
Speaker 1: that he's showed bias. Well, now is this whole second

668
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 1: prosecution just because somebody was embarrassed because they didn't get

669
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: something through the you know, to the goal line.

670
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 2: It looks bad to me. From Jump Street. This is bad,

671
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 2: right right.

672
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 4: It looks bad to me, and and you know they

673
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 4: try to make Karen read it looks bad with all

674
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 4: the phone calls she made after he didn't come home,

675
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 4: and she's looking for you, like, because she's pissed off

676
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 4: that she's you know that she you know, she's been

677
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 4: taking care of his kids and he's you know, out

678
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 4: running around. But it's clear from those phone calls, no

679
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 4: matter how uh, you know, emotionally charged, she sounds that

680
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 4: she didn't think he's dead because she's yelling at him

681
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 4: to come home and why are you doing?

682
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 3: You know, and you know she's you wouldn't have made

683
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 3: you know.

684
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 4: I don't know, fifty phone call, whatever it was, it

685
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 4: was an inordinate amount of you know, this is not

686
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 4: like the one phone call you find where the you know,

687
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 4: the husband who has killed his wife. And I'm going

688
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 4: to just use that because I've seen so many cases

689
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,919
Speaker 4: like that and called his own honey, honey, how are

690
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 4: you you know what's happening. I'll be home a little later.

691
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 4: You know that that phone call you know, you know,

692
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 4: you know what I'm talking about.

693
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 1: No, that's a brilliant point because she knows this is

694
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 1: potentially something law enforcement's going to want to look at.

695
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 1: And I mean she's cussing at him, she's you know,

696
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: she's going in and that is and if you look

697
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: at their pattern from what friends and family have said.

698
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:28,399
Speaker 2: That is how they do.

699
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: They have huge fights, they love each other really fiercely,

700
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: then they have more fights than they love each other fiercely.

701
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 2: That's their pattern.

702
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,720
Speaker 4: And you know, she was taking care of his children

703
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 4: and all of a sudden everyone in the family hates him,

704
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 4: including the kids. But at that time, I think there

705
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 4: was some early evidence that said everybody had loved her.

706
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 4: Everyone thought that she you know, she was helping, she

707
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 4: was doing a great job, she was terrific. And you know, yes,

708
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 4: the relationships start to go sour apparently in a Ruba,

709
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 4: although it was a long time before he died that

710
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 4: she sold that he was maybe with somebody else. Yeah,

711
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 4: it started to go sour, but lots of relationships go sour.

712
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 4: That doesn't mean in the snowstorm, you're driving your SGV

713
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 4: backwards to kill the person you know and then leave

714
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 4: them there to die. And it just doesn't it's the

715
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 4: two don't connect to a murder. And you know, we

716
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 4: also have the issue of the jurors coming out and saying, hey,

717
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 4: we found her not guilty on the first and the

718
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 4: third count, but the judge never told us we can

719
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 4: come back and tell anybody. And because the judge never

720
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 4: then brought the jurors in to question them or told

721
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 4: them that she suffers the effect of that. And that's

722
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 4: why I think the defense has gone to the federal courts,

723
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 4: which they're going to lose. By the way, they're going

724
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 4: to lose this motion to try to get the second

725
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 4: trial stopped for double jeopardy.

726
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 1: What do you think is going to happen in the

727
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 1: second trial as far as experts.

728
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 4: Go, Well, there are a lot of new experts we

729
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 4: have not heard. So let's start with the fact this

730
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 4: trial is going to take a lot longer. And with

731
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 4: Hank Brennan Esquire, who we've seen talk, he's more of

732
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 4: a defense attorney. He is going to cross examine a

733
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 4: lot longer, and a lot I won't say efficiently, but

734
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 4: a lot longer, a lot more like a defense attorney

735
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 4: in this case. And the defense has something like a

736
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 4: lot of new experts. They have one, two, three, four, five, six,

737
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 4: seven new experts like nineteen new witnesses and seven new experts,

738
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 4: including a digital forensic expert, a former FBI agent who's

739
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 4: going to talk about how bad the investigation is, another

740
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 4: video forensic because we have the issue of these cameras,

741
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 4: remember the Sally Port cameras. One of them was inverted,

742
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 4: the footage was missing, and then it wasn't missing, and

743
00:40:55,600 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 4: then it got transferred to another server. The defense had

744
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 4: been told about, but it got transferred by dragging and dropping,

745
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 4: so it ended up not being a really good forensic transfer,

746
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 4: and then it was found in the file of mister Procter,

747
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 4: the Proctor factor. They've also hired Elizabeth la Posada an

748
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 4: then the forensic pathologist from Rhode Island, Garrett Wing, a

749
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 4: K nine officer. They have a couple other other new experts.

750
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 4: That's just the defense and the prosecution also has new experts.

751
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 4: They have a new dog bite expert. They have a

752
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 4: new expert dealing with, as I said, neurosurgery and trying

753
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,760
Speaker 4: to get around the fact that the manner of death

754
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,919
Speaker 4: was not homicide by the forensic pathologists. So I think

755
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 4: that this trial is going to take a little bit

756
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,439
Speaker 4: more different of a different look. You're going to see

757
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 4: as you point out the battle of the experts, but

758
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 4: you're also still going to see the fact that the

759
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 4: Commonwealth is not going to be able to explain how

760
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,959
Speaker 4: that car looks like it's coming into the sally Port

761
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 4: with no tail light, completely fractured out into forty eight pieces,

762
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 4: and then how those pieces end up getting to the

763
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 4: crime scene when the crime scene had been looked at

764
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 4: at least initially, and there was none of those pieces

765
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 4: found at the time at the crime scene. And then

766
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 4: after mister Proctor who goes to the sally Port and

767
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 4: sees the car, and all of a sudden, those pieces

768
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 4: are now available at the crime scene. And I think

769
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 4: the defense is going to really lean into Proctor with that,

770
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 4: and I think that the prosecution and defense are going

771
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 4: to really lean into their experts a lot more in

772
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 4: this case.

773
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 3: Oo.

774
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 2: Well, y'all just heard it. I'm telling you. I told

775
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 2: y'all we needed her.

776
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: And if that don't take something, Look, I just went

777
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: to a fabulous law enforcement training. It was only two hours,

778
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: but it was on how to present evidence to a judge.

779
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 2: It was very specific.

780
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: That don't make me ready to face Linda Kenny Boden,

781
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: You understand.

782
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 3: Me, Why are you as my expert? What are you

783
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 3: talking about? You and I'm doing a case and trying

784
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 3: a case and whether.

785
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: You know, Oh no, we would have a great time.

786
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: But I'm saying two hours of training don't get you ready.

787
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 1: So I'm just saying, watch these experts and listen to

788
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: what their background is.

789
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 2: It's going to blow your mind.

790
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we'll be we'll be covering it at in

791
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 4: addition to my day job of being a lawyer, which

792
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 4: he has on a full time law practice.

793
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 3: Uh, we'll be covering it a Justice Serve TV. We'll

794
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 3: try to cover it.

795
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,760
Speaker 4: And Cheryl would love you to come on and talk about,

796
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 4: you know, crime scene preservation and all because you're you're

797
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 4: the top.

798
00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:59,720
Speaker 3: You know, you know how to do it. You teach

799
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:00,399
Speaker 3: you how to.

800
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 4: Do you know, you know what when you see it,

801
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 4: that's the problem. Must get you really pissed off to

802
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 4: see a crime scene being treated in this manner.

803
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 2: It's maddening.

804
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I would love to and definitely we're gonna want

805
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: you to come back when this thing is said and

806
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 1: done so you can explain how everything went down. I

807
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: adore you, I admire you. I just think the world

808
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: of you. On every level, not just as an attorney,

809
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: but as a friend, as a wife.

810
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 2: You're just you're a remarkable human being.

811
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much. That's a sweeteess.

812
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 2: I really appreciate it, y'all.

813
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I

814
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: always do with a quote, forty percent of homicides go unsolved.

815
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 2: You know that's not a very good record.

816
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: And also ninety five percent of convictions come from plea bargains,

817
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 1: which is often coerced.

818
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 2: It's like we have the worst of both worlds.

819
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: We don't convict the guilty enough and we coerce the

820
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 1: innocent too much. Bill Maher, I'm Cheryl McCollum and this

821
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: is z Own seven.

822
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 4: Mm hmm