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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't matter that you didn't take part in the murder.

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Speaker 2: If you were at the scene at all doing anything

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Speaker 2: twiddling your thumbs, you're guilty of murder.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: published details behind their stories. It's been thirty years since

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Speaker 1: the infamous OJ Simpson trial, and the lead prosecutor, Marcia Clark,

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Speaker 1: has had quite a career since then. She writes fiction

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Speaker 1: and nonfiction books, including the one we'll talk about today.

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Speaker 1: It's called Trial by Ambush, and it's a story about

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Speaker 1: a young woman in Burbank, California, in nineteen fifty three,

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Speaker 1: Barbara Graham was caught up in a robbery scheme that

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Speaker 1: turned deadly. Marcia Clark investigates the sexism and ultimately the

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Speaker 1: tragedy of this case. I would be remiss to not

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Speaker 1: say it has been thirty years since OJ Simpson. Can

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Speaker 1: you believe? First of all, it doesn't. I can't even

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Speaker 1: look at you and say, this looks like someone who

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Speaker 1: prosecuted probably the biggest case in the United States, you know,

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Speaker 1: and thirty years ago. Is this something you think about

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Speaker 1: a lot?

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Speaker 2: No? And I and no, I mean it does occur

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Speaker 2: to me though, you know, like you said, thirty years ago,

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Speaker 2: No way, you know. I mean, it's very hard to

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Speaker 2: wreap my arms around that. It doesn't feel like it's

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Speaker 2: been thirty years. At the same time, it feels like

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Speaker 2: it's been one hundred years. It's hard to undersquare that circle.

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Speaker 1: Well, I will say, you've had such an impressive post

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Speaker 1: OJ career, and I'm not sure everybody can say the

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Speaker 1: same thing. I had wondered what you would do after OJ,

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Speaker 1: after watching you for so long, and I had thought, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe you'll do you know, the kind of the usual

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Speaker 1: thing Court TV or whatever was happening in nineteen ninety five.

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Speaker 1: I don't really remember because you had so much experience

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Speaker 1: before you had done the Rebecca Schaeffer trial of stalking,

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Speaker 1: which I will say for my generation I'm fifty, that

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Speaker 1: is what I remember. I know a lot of people

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Speaker 1: remember Reagan almost dying in an assassination, but this really

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Speaker 1: Rebecca Schaeffer, to me, was so traumatizing a young actress

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Speaker 1: being gunned down. Will you tell me just a little

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Speaker 1: bit about that? And then you know you you go

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Speaker 1: on to Oj Simpson and then it's you're done. After that,

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Speaker 1: you're doing so much other So Becky Shaver was.

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Speaker 2: A real heartbreaker. She was on the brink of stardom.

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Speaker 2: She was in this sitcom with Pam Daughter called My

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Speaker 2: Sister Sam, and she was lovely, you know, she was

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Speaker 2: really talented, very beautiful, and a stalker became entranced with her,

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Speaker 2: as they did, especially back then, because there were so

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Speaker 2: few guardrails, and he was able to get to her

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Speaker 2: simply by paying a private investigator to track her down

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Speaker 2: through the DMV, which can no longer be done, and

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Speaker 2: killed her. It was a super tragic killing. Talk about

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Speaker 2: the most innocent of victims. And he's now locked up

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Speaker 2: for life without the possibility of parole, and it did

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Speaker 2: help to spark a change in the laws that were

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Speaker 2: substantial raised public awareness, of course, of the dangers of stalking,

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Speaker 2: not just for celebrities but for everyone. You know, I

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Speaker 2: mean this kind of thing. Stocking cases were happening for

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Speaker 2: regular citizens who were not famous for many years, but

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Speaker 2: there were no laws that could really do anything to

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Speaker 2: punish You'll prevent the stalkers from acting out until someone

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Speaker 2: got really hurt. The laws changed since them, and people

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Speaker 2: can and do get arrested for stalking short of actually

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Speaker 2: trying to kill someone, which has really helped a great deal.

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Speaker 2: So there was that, and it was a few years

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Speaker 2: after that that Simpson happened. So by that time I'd

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Speaker 2: been a prosecutor for fourteen years and a defense attorney

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Speaker 2: before that for a few years. And after Simpson left

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Speaker 2: the DA's office and embarked on everything else.

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Speaker 1: I do remember you saying, I'm assuming, specifically with Ojay

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Speaker 1: that the hellish part of the trial was the media

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Speaker 1: scrutiny and every and this was even before social media.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine if this had happened what it would

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Speaker 1: have been like for you in the times of social

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Speaker 1: media and podcasts and everything else.

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Speaker 2: No, and every time I do kind of think about that,

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Speaker 2: I have to tell you it just makes me cringe

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Speaker 2: the thought of it. All we had back then, you'll laugh,

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Speaker 2: was a fax machine in the main office. That's it,

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Speaker 2: one facts machine and it blew up every day. I

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Speaker 2: mean it broke down because people have facs in their notes, ideas, opinions.

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Speaker 2: It was hilarious. And then they had a whee tip

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Speaker 2: line for the police and that thing got blown up

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Speaker 2: as well. So imagine that there were social media. No,

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Speaker 2: I don't. I don't even go there, as if my

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Speaker 2: mind just shuts down.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I want to transition over to your second now

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Speaker 1: nonfiction book, which is, you know, a really interesting story.

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Speaker 1: What I love about it is you are doing what

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Speaker 1: you know I have always tried to do. Is I'm

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Speaker 1: looking for the women in the story, the strong characters.

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Speaker 1: And you have a victim who is a woman. You

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Speaker 1: have you know, one of the people who goes on trial,

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Speaker 1: the main person in your book who is a woman.

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Speaker 1: And I think you explore a lot of really interesting things.

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Speaker 1: To transition over to talking about this, I do remember

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Speaker 1: quite a few articles just about how you were asked

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Speaker 1: in Oja time to change your looks, change everything. I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming to not sound like, you know, some bitchy wife

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Speaker 1: that is going to you know, drive men crazy who

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Speaker 1: were watching you. Was that kind of the impression you

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Speaker 1: got or what? What was it all?

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Speaker 2: It was an effort to neutralize me so I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: seem so tough. That was the issue. And so dressing

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Speaker 2: pastels and you know, and talk softly and smile more

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Speaker 2: smile was a big one. So really, this is a

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Speaker 2: double homicide. These people were brutally murdered and you want

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Speaker 2: me to smile. It is not a dinner party, hits

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Speaker 2: a murder trial. And so it was kind of crazy

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Speaker 2: because they were so concerned that a woman in particular

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Speaker 2: would be negatively perceived if she was simply standing her

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Speaker 2: ground and presenting a murder case without apologizing and curtseying

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Speaker 2: through it. It was a bizarre situation to say the least.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, it really was kind of a callback to

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Speaker 2: the fifties with Barbara Graham, who was probably told the

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Speaker 2: same thing. I have to assume she dressed in tight

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Speaker 2: skirt suits and she had her hair up in a bond.

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Speaker 2: She was very appropriate looking honestly, but she was beautiful.

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Speaker 2: And the tight skirt suits, which were the style back then,

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Speaker 2: with high heels, that's how women dressed. That wasn't like

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Speaker 2: a showgirl. Somebody, one of the reporters said she looked

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Speaker 2: more like a showgirl than a defendant. Well, she's very pretty,

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Speaker 2: and she's petite and blah blah blah and all that stuff,

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Speaker 2: and so she looked great, but she wasn't dressed like

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Speaker 2: a librarian as we I don't know why we say

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Speaker 2: that libraries don't dress like that either, but you know

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Speaker 2: what I mean when I say that. So it's a

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Speaker 2: handy little tag. But you know, no hibnick louses, and

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Speaker 2: she wore makeup, and she did you know, she looked good.

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Speaker 2: And they probably did tell her to tone it down.

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Speaker 2: They probably did probably try and get her to maybe

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Speaker 2: wear her version of sackcloth, but she wasn't in time

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Speaker 2: to do that. And I think if they even did

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Speaker 2: tell her to, she wasn't inclined to. And I think

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Speaker 2: in a way, dressing up and dressing nicely was a

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Speaker 2: kind of armor for her, you know, made her feel

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Speaker 2: more protected and more pulled together and girded for battles.

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Speaker 1: So to speak. And I think what gets complicated is

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Speaker 1: and I know that this is something that floats around

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Speaker 1: your book to the label of fem fatale, which drives

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Speaker 1: me out of my mind. I think it is so

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Speaker 1: dismissive and just obviously very sexist. But when you say it, you,

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Speaker 1: I think, can conjure up exactly what we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: So do you think that that was a label that

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Speaker 1: was put on Barbara? And then we need to get

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Speaker 1: into the story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. It was a definite label that got

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Speaker 2: put on Barbara. I think it was really interesting that

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Speaker 2: that was the way they went with her, and it

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Speaker 2: played into this kind of stereotype that is a killer

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Speaker 2: female that frightens men because she's so she's such a

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Speaker 2: not just a ballbuster, but she's also a seductress and

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Speaker 2: a temptress and she'll wrap her wiles around you and

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Speaker 2: you know, do god knows what, and then ultimately destroy you.

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Speaker 2: And they played into that and they deemed her. It

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Speaker 2: labeled her as Bloody Babs. That was the prosecutors who

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Speaker 2: started that ball rolling. She was called Bloody Babs. She

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Speaker 2: was a demon, she was a villainous, she was a murderist,

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Speaker 2: and they went overboard. They cracked open every thestorus on

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Speaker 2: the table to go after her with every adjective you

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Speaker 2: can imagine, all of which was derogatory, all of which

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Speaker 2: was misogynistic. It was an extreme that was actually even

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Speaker 2: by today's standards, which I don't consider all that great,

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Speaker 2: it was shocking. It does show that we have come

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Speaker 2: some distance from those days. Not completely. We're not all

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Speaker 2: the way there, but we are certainly better off today.

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Speaker 2: At least we're aware of this kind of thing. Back then,

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Speaker 2: they never even talked about it. Today, you and I

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Speaker 2: are discussing how misogynistic it was and how unfair it was,

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Speaker 2: and the way they demonized her was hideous. They didn't

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Speaker 2: even think to mention it. Back then. It was just

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Speaker 2: so accepted as something that they could do and should do.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that a judge these days would admonish

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Speaker 1: the prosecutor if he used any KINI or she used

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Speaker 1: any kind of moniker like that? Or does it kind

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Speaker 1: of depend on where you are?

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Speaker 2: Well, it might depend on where you are. You know,

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Speaker 2: every courtroom is a different is a different experiment, and

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Speaker 2: regions matter. What might fly in Texas won't fly in Oregon.

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Speaker 2: That kind of thing, though, I think overall, even so,

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Speaker 2: the level is higher today than it was. So while

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Speaker 2: there probably are big variations in where you are in

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Speaker 2: the United States or even within California, for example, there's

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Speaker 2: a certain level past which I think judges would not

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Speaker 2: allow you to go in terms of what you call

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Speaker 2: a defendant and how you frame up a defendant to

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Speaker 2: the jury.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's get into the story. So we are in Burbank, California,

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three. Can you just give me an overall,

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Speaker 1: where are we in history or are we at war

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Speaker 1: with anyone?

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Speaker 3: What's happening in the United States World War two? Things

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Speaker 3: are relatively prosperous and relatively calm. It's at that time

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Speaker 3: we haven't yet gotten into the Vietnam War, the draft

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Speaker 3: and all of that. Relatively speaking, things are pretty calm

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Speaker 3: on the domestic front. And you know, just looking at

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Speaker 3: what the cost of things were back then, you know,

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Speaker 3: it was crazy.

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Speaker 2: A nickel for a phone call and a payphone member. Payphones,

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Speaker 2: they were ubiquitous back then. The Burbank neighborhood where the

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Speaker 2: victim lived, Mabel Monahan, was your typical. It almost could

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Speaker 2: pass for a Midwestern town. Very quiet, very lovely family, neighborhood, peaceful.

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Speaker 2: There's a little neighborhood store tucked into one of the

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Speaker 2: streets where you could send your nine year old child

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Speaker 2: to go and pick up groceries for you or you know,

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Speaker 2: gallon of milk. It was the days of where the

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Speaker 2: old sitcoms came from Andy of Maybury and that sort

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Speaker 2: of thing. That's what it was like. And so the

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Speaker 2: notion that a heinous home invasion, robbery murder would take

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Speaker 2: place in a neighborhood like that was unthinkable. It had

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Speaker 2: never happened, and it stunned the community, it stunned the country.

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Speaker 2: It became national news because it was such an outrageous

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Speaker 2: thing to happen in a place like that.

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Speaker 1: So Mabel in this case is our victim. I'll just

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Speaker 1: say a little side note. I've read a couple of

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Speaker 1: times that she's referred as an elderly widow and she's

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Speaker 1: sixty four.

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Speaker 2: Bug off the life expectancy, you know, I mean back then,

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Speaker 2: sixty four it was like you're done good, back on

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Speaker 2: the wheel hole.

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Speaker 1: Gosh.

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Speaker 2: I noticed that too.

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Speaker 1: That drove me crazy.

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Speaker 2: And she was a trip. Though. Mabel Monahan was a

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Speaker 2: cool lady. She had been a vaudeville trooper. She was

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Speaker 2: a roller skater, and that's how she met her husband.

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Speaker 2: He was also on the vaudeville sergate. He was a

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Speaker 2: roller and ice skater. They became a dynamic duo. There

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Speaker 2: was this rendering of them doing one of their stunts

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Speaker 2: where he holds her by a piece of rope in

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Speaker 2: his mouth that she holds on with her mouth and

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Speaker 2: they're spinning around and she's spinning through the air. It's

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Speaker 2: an amazing thing. So she was really cool, and then

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Speaker 2: she wound up in Burbank purely by accident. She had

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Speaker 2: a daughter named Iris. She was also a performer, and

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Speaker 2: her daughter ultimately auditioned for a floor show at a

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Speaker 2: place called Ships, which was a converted yacht really or

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Speaker 2: a cruise ship that was worn off of the Santa

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Speaker 2: Monica Peer and it was during the prohibition days, and

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Speaker 2: they have speakeasy downstairs, and Iris auditioned for the for

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Speaker 2: the floor show, and she got hired by the owner

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Speaker 2: of Ships, who was also into the speakeasy and selling

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Speaker 2: booze Tutor Sharer, and Tutor Sharer was quite the dashing man,

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Speaker 2: entrepreneur man about town. They got married ultimately and he

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Speaker 2: did very well. He was into the gambling business as well,

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Speaker 2: but he was seeing that Nikki Cohen, the ultimate gangster

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Speaker 2: of that time, was controlling Los Angeles and that if

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Speaker 2: he didn't get out and let Niki Cohen do his

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Speaker 2: thing in Los Angeles, he was going to wind up dead.

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Speaker 2: So Tudor Sharer decamped to Las Vegas and opened up

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Speaker 2: a casino there, became a real estate entrepreneur, did very well,

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Speaker 2: very successful, but he was not quite as successful well.

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Speaker 2: He was too successful with the ladies and iris. After

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Speaker 2: thirteen years of marriage, which were very rocky thirteen years,

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Speaker 2: decided to divorce him. He didn't blame her. It settled

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Speaker 2: her nicely with a lot of money, jewelry and the

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Speaker 2: house in Burbank. She didn't want the house and so

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Speaker 2: she gave it to her mother, Mabel, and Tutor Sharer

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Speaker 2: and Mabel were very close. They liked each other a lot,

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Speaker 2: and he kind of figured she'd wind up with the

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Speaker 2: house that he was happy about that. So Mabel winds

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Speaker 2: up living in a house in Burbank. She had never

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Speaker 2: lived in a house before. She was used to living

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Speaker 2: in hotels across the country, so she was very security

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Speaker 2: conscious because now it was up to her. There was

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Speaker 2: no front door desk, nobody else manning the front was

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Speaker 2: all her, and they were all these entries and back

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Speaker 2: doors and things to manage. So she became notorious for

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Speaker 2: her security conscious ways. So ironically she wound up in

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Speaker 2: this situation. So it became known though that Tutor share

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Speaker 2: and she remained friendly, and that Tutor whenever he came

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Speaker 2: through from Las Vegas, would stop to visit her in Burbank,

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Speaker 2: and a rumor started among the criminal element in Los

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Speaker 2: Angeles that he was stashing money that he would siphon

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Speaker 2: off of the casinos to hide it from the irs,

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Speaker 2: and it would be stashed in the safe in her

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Speaker 2: Burbank house. They decided then that they had cased the

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Speaker 2: place a number of times, thinking, you know, it's just

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Speaker 2: an old lady. We could knock her over easy, and

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Speaker 2: they had thought about it and thought about it, but

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Speaker 2: hadn't done it over the period of a couple of years.

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Speaker 2: Because she was security conscious. They had to make sure

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Speaker 2: they could get into the house, couldn't necessarily decide determine

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Speaker 2: when she was home and not, so they'd have to

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Speaker 2: get her to open the door. If she was home,

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Speaker 2: too much work, so they didn't do it. But then

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Speaker 2: ultimately the bad guys in this case, one of whom

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00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,480
Speaker 2: was Barbara's dear friend Emmett Perkins, who ran gambling houses

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Speaker 2: around Los Angeles, and she worked as his dice girl

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Speaker 2: that's basically a shill, and she would get men to

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Speaker 2: spend their money there. And what she would do is

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Speaker 2: go to these nice hotel bars and they would see

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Speaker 2: your pretty girls drinking alone, and then she would get

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Speaker 2: to talk to them and they'd want to go somewhere private,

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Speaker 2: and she'd say, well, on the way, why don't we

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Speaker 2: stop here, and here would be the gambling house, and

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Speaker 2: she would help them part with their money. So she

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Speaker 2: was very close with EMMITTT. Perkins. She worked for him.

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Speaker 2: And then a few months before this murder happened, Emmett

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Speaker 2: perkins good buddy Jack Santos showed up at the gambling house.

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Speaker 2: She met Jack Santos. Then they decided, you know what,

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Speaker 2: we know how we can get into Mabel Monahan's house.

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Speaker 2: We'll use Barbara. Barbara will be the decoy. She'll go

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Speaker 2: knock on the door. And Barbara was petite and very

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Speaker 2: unthreatening and just say I'm sorry, my car broke down.

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Speaker 2: Could I please use your phone? You know there were

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Speaker 2: no cell phones, and that's how Barbara become involved.

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Speaker 1: Is this a good time to talk about Barbara's personal

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Speaker 1: background or do you want to get through what happens

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Speaker 1: with Mabel and then talk about It's up to you.

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Speaker 2: This is a good time. So Barbara had had one

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Speaker 2: of the hardest knock lives that were possible for someone

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Speaker 2: who was not an addict. She was the first born

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Speaker 2: to her mother, never knew her father. Her mother hated

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Speaker 2: her basically from birth. Whether that was because her mother

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Speaker 2: was raped or because she just didn't want to be

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Speaker 2: a mother, I don't know. But Barbara was somebody that

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00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,639
Speaker 2: got foisted off on neighbors and friends and family and

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00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,040
Speaker 2: pure strangers from almost birth. Her mother went on to

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Speaker 2: have two more children again father's unknown. Those children got

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00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,679
Speaker 2: treated a little better, but Barbara eventually wound up. She

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00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,000
Speaker 2: made it I think through eighth grade, but of course

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Speaker 2: fell in with a bad crowd. And by a bad crowd,

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Speaker 2: I just mean smoking, occasionally drinking and cutting class is

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Speaker 2: playing hooky. This was up in the Bay Area. They

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Speaker 2: take the ferry into San Francisco and get into trouble.

334
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,479
Speaker 2: I mean it its teenage stuff. Nevertheless, eventually it came

335
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Speaker 2: to the attention of the authorities. She was truant, and

336
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,560
Speaker 2: eventually she went from one place to another. At one

337
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Speaker 2: point she was in a convent, and you would think

338
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,680
Speaker 2: that someone who was used to flouting all rules would

339
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,399
Speaker 2: hate a convent, but Barbara was very happy there. She

340
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,040
Speaker 2: loved the sisters, thought they were wonderful. They treated her

341
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Speaker 2: very well, probably the best time of her childhood. But

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00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,639
Speaker 2: that couldn't last because the state stopped paying her mother

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Speaker 2: for taking care of because the women, I think a

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00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,480
Speaker 2: single mother back then was entitled to some kind of stipend,

345
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Speaker 2: and if the sisters were taking care of Barbara, she

346
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,200
Speaker 2: wasn't getting it. So she took her out of the convent,

347
00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,320
Speaker 2: where she was once again being thrown around and treated

348
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,640
Speaker 2: like garbage. And so she wound up being taken into

349
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Speaker 2: the reform school of the Venturist School for Girls. This

350
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:59,919
Speaker 2: was a notorious hell for young girls, and the mother

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Speaker 2: knew it because she had been confined in the Venturia

352
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Speaker 2: School for Girls herself for a period of a couple

353
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Speaker 2: of years, so she knew better. And they had been

354
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,960
Speaker 2: written up a number of times for their draconian disciplinary measures,

355
00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,920
Speaker 2: some of which really sounded like waterboard and absolute torture.

356
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,520
Speaker 2: Barbara would run away from them. Repeatedly. She'd run back

357
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Speaker 2: home and beg her mother to let her stay home.

358
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Speaker 2: Her mother would call the cops and have her hauled

359
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,640
Speaker 2: off in handcuffs every time. Eventually they just let her

360
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:29,840
Speaker 2: age out of the school, and at sixteen she was

361
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,000
Speaker 2: on the street. She became a seagull as they call it,

362
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,080
Speaker 2: which is the young girls, young women who would hang

363
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,040
Speaker 2: around with the sailors at port, and there she kind

364
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,200
Speaker 2: of got in with the crowd that suited her. These

365
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,199
Speaker 2: were all people who were not bad people. These were

366
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:49,200
Speaker 2: people who kind of were rootless, no particular ties. She had,

367
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 2: of course, no skills. They helped her, she helped them.

368
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:57,000
Speaker 2: There was some check hiding, some shoplifting, but it was

369
00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,720
Speaker 2: all fringy crime like that misdemeanor stuff that is pretty

370
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,479
Speaker 2: typical of a young person who has no skills and

371
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,439
Speaker 2: no way of making a legitimate living. She tried to

372
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,399
Speaker 2: as a waitress periodically, but that was a fitful experience

373
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,760
Speaker 2: for her, which is why she wound up being a

374
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,280
Speaker 2: dice girl. Now, in the course of all of her

375
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 2: doings up there, she wound up with a lot of

376
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,480
Speaker 2: friends who were on the wrong side of the law,

377
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 2: which is exactly what you'd expect given the way she

378
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,639
Speaker 2: was living from hand to mouth. And at one point

379
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,359
Speaker 2: a couple of friends of hers decided to rob a

380
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,400
Speaker 2: famous madam up in San Francisco, and in the course

381
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,720
Speaker 2: of the robbery, the madam hollered out the window, which

382
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,720
Speaker 2: brought the cops running, and the robbers got caught within

383
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 2: ten seconds. One of them asked Barbara to be his alibi.

384
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 2: Barbara would do anything for her friend because her friends

385
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,919
Speaker 2: were all she had. So she was primarily loyal to

386
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 2: her friends, and that's all that she could be loyal to,

387
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,359
Speaker 2: because that's all she had in her life. So she

388
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 2: gave him an alibi, testified for him that he was

389
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,200
Speaker 2: with her. Of course, foolishly, she was inside in Chicago

390
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 2: at the time, and the prosecutors found out within ten

391
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 2: seconds that she was lying. She was probably in Chicago

392
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 2: when she said she was in the Bay area, and

393
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,439
Speaker 2: so she got convicted of perjury. She did very little time,

394
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,199
Speaker 2: but that perjury conviction would haunt her. So that was

395
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,440
Speaker 2: the past she brought with her. Now just before. Within

396
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 2: a couple of years before the murder, she met her husband.

397
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 2: And she met him because he was the bartender at

398
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 2: one of the bars, the hotel bars that she would

399
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 2: go to to pick up men to bring them to

400
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 2: the gambling hole. He was a nice guy, Hank was,

401
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 2: and he was using his bartending gig to hook up

402
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 2: men with women, so he had a side gig as well,

403
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 2: and it was a match made in heaven. For some reason,

404
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 2: he was the one she really fell for. She had

405
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 2: been married three times, she'd had kids with two of

406
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,680
Speaker 2: the husbands, left them behind with the mother in law,

407
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,720
Speaker 2: never really was attached to anyone, but Hank was the

408
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,879
Speaker 2: one she fell for and really loved him. They wound

409
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 2: up having a son named Tommy. At first, life was wonderful,

410
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 2: but of course when she got pregnant, she couldn't be

411
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 2: a dice girl anymore. Unfortunately, Hank turned out to be

412
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 2: not just a nice guy who was a bartender. He

413
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:11,919
Speaker 2: turned out to be a nice guy who was a

414
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 2: bartender and also a junkie. And he stopped working and

415
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 2: Barbara had no money. She didn't have money to feed

416
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,160
Speaker 2: her or Hank or the baby, and times were getting desperate.

417
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,199
Speaker 2: The shoplifting wasn't covering it, bad checks weren't covering it.

418
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 2: Eventually she had to go back to work as a

419
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 2: dice girl, but their marriage was on the rocks because

420
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: of the constant fighting over the fact that Hank just

421
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 2: wanted to get high lots of pressure there. And so

422
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 2: when they asked Barbara to be there decoy, you can

423
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 2: see why circumstances were as dire as they were for her.

424
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 2: And she thought, Okay, I'll make a little money, get

425
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 2: the door open, and that's it. That would be her

426
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 2: whole part of the whole thing. And it didn't work

427
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 2: out that way.

428
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 1: Let me go back and ask you a few questions

429
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,160
Speaker 1: just so we get a really clear picture of Barbara,

430
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: because I know that's really important. In your book established

431
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 1: who she is, which is what any good defense attorney

432
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 1: would have done. You know, this is what led her

433
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 1: to this. The sources that I have read don't really

434
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 1: illuminate any of this. Did you find that too, that

435
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 1: sort of she is the fem fatale, the dangerous bad girl,

436
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: and that's the end of it. That a lot of

437
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 1: even now modern readers don't really want to hear about

438
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: her background. They kind of just want to hear about

439
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 1: what a dangerous woman she was.

440
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 2: Well, I found that readers were actually really glad to

441
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 2: have that background. But that's today's readers we're not talking

442
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 2: about back then. Today's readers were very interested in, you know,

443
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 2: who she was and how she came to be in

444
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 2: this situation. But back then, it was the newspapers were

445
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 2: filled with nothing but the fem fatale, the villainous, the murderous,

446
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 2: the bloody babs of it all. That's all they wanted

447
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 2: to write about. Very little mention was made of the

448
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 2: hard knock life she had led that brought her to

449
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 2: this place. So no one really knew and I don't

450
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,439
Speaker 2: think anyone really cared back then and what her history

451
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 2: really was. There was one other book written after that time.

452
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 2: There was a book written by one of the tabloid

453
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 2: reporters who became very close to the prosecutor, and he

454
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 2: collaborated on a book about the trial with the prosecutor.

455
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 2: But of course the bias was unbelievable in that book,

456
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 2: and in many respects it was completely unreliable and false.

457
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 2: So he did little to talk about Barbara's history. But

458
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 2: Kathleen Karen wrote a book that was in twenty thirteen

459
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 2: that I highly recommend called Proof of Guilt, and it

460
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 2: really focuses on the death penalty and particularly women who

461
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 2: were put to death or subjected to a sentence of death.

462
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: That's fascinating. And she talks a little bit about Barbara's

463
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 2: background in that, but RSUs a range of cases, not

464
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 2: just Barbara's case. When I decided to research this, I

465
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 2: reached out to all of these sources I could possibly find,

466
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 2: and because it's so old, there's no one really to

467
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 2: talk to who knew her. So I got very, very

468
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 2: lucky to find that Walter Wanger, who was a big

469
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: Hollywood producer back then, he produced the film that featured

470
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 2: this case, and it was all about Barbara Graham and

471
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 2: the case called I Want to Live. And it was

472
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 2: an Oscar winning film for Susan Hayward, who played Barbara Graham.

473
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 2: She won for Best Actress. In the course of preparing

474
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 2: for that filming, Walter Wanger gathered all of the letters

475
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: she'd written her lawyers that he could get a hold of,

476
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 2: and all of her background and the defense investigators reports.

477
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 2: He gathered this whole treasure trow of information that I

478
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 2: was able to draw on in order to pay the

479
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: much bigger, clearer picture of who Barbara was and that

480
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:37,959
Speaker 2: was just a lucky break.

481
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: How much when you were a prosecutor, would the offenders

482
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: a person who is going on trial, how much would

483
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: their background play into your decision of what they should

484
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: be charged with? You know what they're going to be

485
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: able to trial for, how to influence the jury, Like

486
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: what would you do with Barbara Graham?

487
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: Now?

488
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: As a prosecutor, do you think it.

489
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 2: Does play a part? I think it's always important that

490
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 2: a prosecut look at the whole picture. If someone has

491
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 2: no priors whatsoever, you have to think about exactly what's

492
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 2: in play. But ultimately it is the facts of the case.

493
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: What did they do in this case, what's the law,

494
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 2: what the charges should be. When it comes to the

495
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 2: background of the defendant, that goes more towards sentencing than

496
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: it does toward a charging decision, though there are definitely

497
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: you can decide to charge someone. And I want to get

498
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 2: too far into the weeds with this, but there are

499
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 2: certain charging decisions that may have a bearing on history

500
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 2: of the defendant, but many of them do not. When

501
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 2: it comes to the death penalty, then it's a very

502
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: big consideration. The defendant's background is huge, and that is

503
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: something that you really have to pay attention to. Where

504
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 2: there other murders in his background, that's a big one.

505
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 2: Even if they were underprivileged, even if they did have

506
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 2: a very rocky childhood. If a prior murder is in

507
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 2: the offing, you have to think about that, and so

508
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 2: what kind of murder was it, you know, was it

509
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 2: a crime of opportunity, was it a serial killer? These

510
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 2: things all matter. So if it had been my decision

511
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 2: in terms of Barbara's charges, I would never have sought

512
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: the death penalty against her. Never with her background, the

513
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 2: misdemeanor nothing fringe kind of crimes of opportunity, you know, shoplifting,

514
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 2: check hiding, I would not have been pursuing the death

515
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 2: penalty at all. So that would have been the big difference.

516
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 2: Felony murder back then, there was a different rule. Felony

517
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: murder rule meant that if you were involved in the felony,

518
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 2: no matter what happened and how it went down, if

519
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 2: someone got killed, you were out on the hook for murder, period,

520
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: even if you were sitting in the lookout position outside.

521
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 2: And that was the law back then. So one if

522
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: there was a murder that went down, everyone went down

523
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: for the murder. That's no longer true, at least in California.

524
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 2: There are gradations in terms of your liability. So I

525
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 2: can't even say that, you know, how I would charge

526
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: her in terms of the rest of it, because that's

527
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 2: not fair. Certain things were not even on the table

528
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 2: back then. But I certainly, even by their standards back then,

529
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 2: would never have gone after the death Penalt.

530
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: Well, let me see if I can catch us up

531
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 1: so we can get to Mabel's door. So we have Barbara,

532
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: who is a mother. She's pretty desperate. She goes back

533
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: into dice girl work. And then she's got two people

534
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: who say, let's, you know, break into this woman's house

535
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: and look for this money that's supposedly there. And we're

536
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: going to use Barbara as a decoy. And she seems

537
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: very clear on what she's supposed to do. What is

538
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 1: she specifically supposed to do when this happens.

539
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: Now it's supposed to do anything but get her to

540
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 2: open the door and then keep her out of the way.

541
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 2: That's it. And the plan was sit her down on

542
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: the couch, sit next to her, and keep her quiet.

543
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: We'll do our thing and then we'll leave. And that

544
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 2: was it. So the burglary, the robbery, the murder goes down.

545
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 2: It gets discovered a day and a half later when

546
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: the gardener sees that Mabel's front door is ajar. This

547
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 2: is very rare. She keeps everything locked down tight. He

548
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,959
Speaker 2: calls for her, calls for her, no answer. He pushes

549
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 2: the door further in and then sees that the whole

550
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 2: house has been turned up so down. There's blood on

551
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 2: the walls, the carpeting's been ripped up, the furniture's been

552
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 2: thrown around. He freaks out, calls a friend of his,

553
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: who happens to be a Burbank police officer. He shows up,

554
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: police officer walks inside, the gardener walks behind him, and

555
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 2: they go through and they find that Mabel has been

556
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 2: dragged down the hallway and left next to the linen closet,

557
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 2: a garage around her neck, and she's been beaten severely

558
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 2: about the face and head in a pool of blood.

559
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 2: They then call in the troops from Burbank PD and

560
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: the case begins to unfold, but they find that there

561
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: is no safe there. So, contrary to the rumors, no safe.

562
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 2: The whole house had been turned upside down. They had

563
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: even gone through everything in Mabel's closet. Every purse was

564
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 2: turned upside down except for one, and that was a

565
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: purse that was hanging on the hook, which turned out

566
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 2: to have hundreds of dollars in cash and jewelry, some

567
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: of the very expensive platinum and diamonds. So they have

568
00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 2: no witnesses, no eyewitnesses, no ear witnesses, no fingerprints. Even then,

569
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 2: of course, back then there was no ring cameras, no CCTV.

570
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 2: There was nothing. And they don't even know why now

571
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: because it looks like they were supposedly ransacking the place,

572
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 2: but they left this purse full of everything there. So

573
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 2: it takes them quite a while. They reach out with

574
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 2: all of the sources they can find, They tap all

575
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: of the guys on the street and all of their

576
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 2: confidential informants, and no one's talking. No one's talking. And

577
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: then finally after a couple of weeks, and by now

578
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: the pressure has built enormously because people are up in arms.

579
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: They're terrified. Nothing like this has happened in this neighborhood

580
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: like ever. And finally they find someone named Baxter Shorter,

581
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: and he is their first witness involved in the actual

582
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 2: ring of burglars who committed the crime. To turn, he

583
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: gives them a statement under oath that is actually taken

584
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: down by a stenographer, and he tells the following that

585
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 2: he was tapped by Emmett Perkins and Jack Santos, Perkins

586
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: being Barber's buddy, Santos being perkins buddy. He was tapped

587
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 2: by them because they had heard the rumor about Tutor

588
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: Sharer leaving the money in the house, and Baxter Shorter

589
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: knew where she lived. They did not. They agree to

590
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 2: cut Baxter Shorter in for ten percent if he'll point

591
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 2: out the house and be the lookout. He thinks, all right,

592
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: fair enough, it's only ten percent, But then again, all

593
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 2: I have to do is sit outside, so he does.

594
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 2: On the night that's in question, they all meet at

595
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 2: the Smokehouse, which is a really great restaurant across the

596
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: street from the studios in Burbank, and they plot how

597
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 2: they're going to do this. At that point, four people

598
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: are involved. John True, who is a friend of Jack

599
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 2: Santos from up in Grass Valley. He's a deep sea diver.

600
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 2: Baxter Shorter, who's a safe cracker, and also the one

601
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: who knows where Mabel lives. EMMITTT. Perkins, Barbara's friend. He's

602
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 2: also a safe cracker, they call him a boxman, and

603
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 2: Jack Santos and then of course Barbara. So the five

604
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 2: of them go to Mabel Monahan's house after meeting at

605
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 2: the Smokehouse, and they sit outside. The plan is Barbara

606
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 2: goes to the door. First, she gets Mabel to open

607
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 2: the door, and then right behind her, John True should

608
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 2: go in and helps help keep Matebo out of the

609
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: way and then give them the high sign. When it's

610
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: all the coast is clear and they can come in.

611
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: And then Santo said, Perkins will go in and do

612
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 2: the search for the safe, break into the safe, et cetera.

613
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 2: So Barbara goes in and John True right behind her,

614
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: and then according to Baxter Shorter, he's waiting outside. He's

615
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 2: waiting outside. It's taking a really long time. Everyone's getting nervous,

616
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 2: and at Perkins goes, what is going on here? She

617
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 2: should be like sitting on a couch by now, what's

618
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: going on? Nobody has given them the high sign yet

619
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 2: he goes over to Jack Santos and said, what do

620
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 2: we do? Santo says, you go inside and gives him

621
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 2: a gun. You go find find out what's happening. Ultimately

622
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 2: they go in. Baxter Shorter is still sitting outside. They

623
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 2: go in. Some minutes later, Jack Santos comes outside, waves

624
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 2: him in and says, come and see there's nothing here

625
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: because he needs to prove two backster Shorter that there's

626
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: no ten percent to be had because nothing is found there.

627
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: And Baxter Shorter goes in and sees the bloody scene.

628
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 2: He freaks out and he says, look, we got to

629
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: help her. At that point, John True is sitting on

630
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 2: the floor with Mabel Monahan's head in her lap and

631
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 2: he's holding her down, and he says, look, we got

632
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: to help her. She's gonna die. What are we doing?

633
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: And nobody says anything. They ultimately leave a short time later,

634
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: and Baxter Shorter, as soon as he gets away from them,

635
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 2: runs to a payphone and calls for an ambulance, giving

636
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: the address of Parkside Avenue in Los Angeles. Unfortunately, there

637
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 2: is no Parkside Avenue in Los Angeles. There's only a

638
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 2: Parkside Avenue in Burbank. The ambulance never gets there. Mabel dies,

639
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: very likely as Jack Santos was telling Baxter. She was

640
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: already dead by the time they left the house. In

641
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 2: any case, Baxter was freaked out, but he tells the

642
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 2: DA everything, all of what I just told you, and

643
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 2: everything he said checked out. They did trace the call.

644
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: They managed to find the operator he spoke to that

645
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 2: got the ambulance to show up somewhere. I don't know

646
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 2: where the ambussob ultimately went. And after that, okay, they

647
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: have their star witness, Shorter terrific. They decided that, you

648
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,719
Speaker 2: know what, Baxter, Shorter had better be kept quiet and

649
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 2: low and safe because these three, the rest of them

650
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 2: are still out and about. Baxter says, hey, if I disappear,

651
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 2: you know, they're going to know that whatever your reporting

652
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 2: came from me, because the reporters were all over the

653
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 2: case and reporting the story and all kinds of inside information,

654
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 2: especially the decoy part that Barbara went to the door

655
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 2: told me Abel Monahan that her car had broken down

656
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 2: and got able to open the door. Only someone involved

657
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 2: would know that. There's no one else, and so it

658
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: had to come from someone who was on the inside.

659
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 2: Now the rest of them are out in the world,

660
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 2: they're going to know. The only one who's not with

661
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: us is Baxter Shorter. He's got to be singing, but

662
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 2: he refused police protection. Although everyone, including the DA himself,

663
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: tried to get him to accept it. He said, no,

664
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 2: that'll be even worse. It'll be a big red flashing sign.

665
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 2: It's me, it's me. Maybe he was right, but he

666
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 2: wound up getting kidnapped at gunpoint by Emmett Perkins and

667
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 2: disappeared for good. So they've lost their star witness. This

668
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 2: leaves them with no way to crack the case, no testimony,

669
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 2: They have no one. Are they going to turn Barbara Well,

670
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 2: she's got a perjury conviction. Jack Santo's and Nanna Perkins

671
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 2: are already being suspected of having committed other murders up

672
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: north in the gold mining country, so they're not good.

673
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 2: The only one left was John True. They went up

674
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 2: to San Francisco. They pressured him, they locked him up

675
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: for days, had his friends come in and beg him,

676
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 2: and finally, with a promise of complete and full immunity

677
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 2: i e. He walked out the door. He agreed to

678
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 2: testify and that became their star witness. And that was

679
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 2: actually the worst thing they could have done, because John

680
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: True was a big liar. It was one of the

681
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 2: most ironic names I've ever ever heard, and I kept

682
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 2: calling him in the book the ironically name John True.

683
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 2: And he claimed that when he walked in behind Barbara,

684
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 2: he found Barbara holding Mabel Monahan by the neck and pistol,

685
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: whipping her repeatedly and the face and neck and the head,

686
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 2: and that he put his hand between her face and

687
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: Barbara's pistol and said, stop, stop, don't do that. Now.

688
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 2: Barbara is not a big woman. She's small. And even

689
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 2: though John True wasn't big, he's bigger than her. Did

690
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 2: he pull her off, No? Did he push her away? No?

691
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: He says he put his hand next to Mabel's face. Well,

692
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 2: that would have just jammed his hand into her face.

693
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 2: Nobody thought about the logistics of the stupid story he told.

694
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 2: For some reason, it was bizarre to me that no

695
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 2: one questioned it. And Barbara five foot two, one hundred

696
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 2: and twenty six pounds is going to control a woman

697
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 2: by the back of the neck with one hand. No

698
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 2: one thought about this. But what I also discovered was

699
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 2: that Barbara didn't have a gun, And so when you

700
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,240
Speaker 2: put all of the statements together, that was a lie too.

701
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 2: But the jury never knew that because the jury never

702
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 2: heard Baxter Shorter's statement and never got to find out that. Actually,

703
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 2: the prosecution took a statement from John True when he

704
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 2: was up in San Francisco, and it had certain discrepancies

705
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,399
Speaker 2: between that his testimony, which would have made him look

706
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 2: a great deal different than he looked for the jury.

707
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: By the time he got to sit on the witness

708
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 2: stand and paid a halo over his head, the prosecution

709
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 2: buried that first statements and the defense never got it,

710
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: never saw it. So a number of things happened to

711
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 2: skew the jury's version of the facts right up front

712
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 2: before anything else happened.

713
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: So did Barbara take the stand.

714
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: She had to. Ultimately she had to. Here's why. When

715
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 2: Barbara was in custody, she was befriended by a woman

716
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 2: named Donna Prow Or, as the press dubbed her, the

717
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 2: pretty little Donna prow Donna prowe became gave Barbara sweets

718
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 2: and chocolate and candy and did and gave her money

719
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 2: and knitted her what it knitted her a scard for something,

720
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 2: promised to knit her address for trial, ingratiated herself with

721
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 2: Barbara in every possible way. She could I bet you

722
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 2: can see this coming. Donna Prow was a plant. She

723
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 2: had been the lover. We believe. That's an opinion. It's

724
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 2: not been established, but it seems pretty clear, at least

725
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 2: in my opinion, that she was the girlfriend of Lieutenant

726
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 2: Robert Coveney of Burbank Police Department of long standing. She

727
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 2: had been his girlfriend before she went to jail. And

728
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: she went to jail because she got very drunk and

729
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: very stone and got behind the wheel of a car

730
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 2: and went careening down major streets, major league thoroughfares, and

731
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 2: wound up crashing head first into a car containing a

732
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 2: family of five, killing one, maiming the other four, for

733
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 2: which she got one year in jail and probation. Back then,

734
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 2: we did not take drunk driving seriously, so before that accident, though,

735
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: she was already tight with Lieutenant Coveney. When she got

736
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 2: busted for this drunk driving murderer, she called him up

737
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: for help and he gave a statement for her. He

738
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 2: was there for her, and she told the probation officer

739
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 2: he sadbody, that she would always be able to call

740
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 2: when she wasn't feeling well. Tenant Covenany when he puts

741
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 2: Barbara into the La County jail. Realizes, I've got an

742
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 2: ace in the hole here. Donna Prow's already in custody.

743
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 2: I'll use her to get to Barbara and persuade Barbara

744
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 2: to secure a false alibi from a plant. So he

745
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 2: set her up to persuade Barbara to talk to this

746
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 2: man named Sam. And this man named Sam was some

747
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: reported to be some underworld figure who for a price,

748
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 2: would give Barbara a false alibi for the murder of

749
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,720
Speaker 2: Mabel Monaghan, and Barbara was very reluctant. There were letters

750
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,959
Speaker 2: that went between them constantly leading up to this whole

751
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 2: scheme that showed Donna had been pressuring her to go

752
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 2: along with this, to do this, and meanwhile, at the

753
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 2: same time her lawyers pressuring her for an alibi as well, saying, look,

754
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 2: the felony murder ruled back then, it doesn't matter that

755
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:51,879
Speaker 2: you didn't take part in the murder. If you were

756
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 2: at the scene at all, doing anything twiddling your thumbs,

757
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 2: you're guilty of murder and then you subject to the

758
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 2: death penalty. So you need an alibi. It's your only defense.

759
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 2: Lots of pressure put on her to come up with

760
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 2: an alibi and of course she couldn't because she was there.

761
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 2: So Barbara was getting pressured on all sides to come

762
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 2: up with an alibi. Donna tells her this man Sam,

763
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 2: you could trust him, I could trust him. I know

764
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 2: him well. Talk to him. He'll give you an alibi.

765
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 2: It's what you need. You have to do this, You

766
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,439
Speaker 2: have to do this. Now, we don't know what Donna

767
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 2: wrote to Barbara because you're not allowed to pass notes

768
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: in jail, so Barbara would destroy all the notes. She

769
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,479
Speaker 2: believed Donna was destroying her notes as well. Of course,

770
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 2: Donna was not doing that. Donna was turning over almost

771
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 2: all the notes that Barbara wrote to her to Lieutenant Coveney.

772
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 2: She didn't turn all of them over. She told Lieutenant

773
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 2: Coveny that some of them were too embarrassing because they

774
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 2: wound up she and Barbara wound up having an affair.

775
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,439
Speaker 2: She said she was too embarrassed to share it all

776
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 2: with Lieutenant Coveney because they were so graphic. Whether that's

777
00:40:55,120 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 2: true or not, I'm very skeptical. I think that probably

778
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 2: a lot of the notes Don and was writing Barbara

779
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 2: were very high pressure about you've got to do this,

780
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 2: You've got to go with this guy. And the more

781
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 2: pressure does putting on Barbara, the less it looks like

782
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 2: this was Barbara's idea. They don't want that to come out.

783
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 2: They wanted to look like Barbara jumped at the chance

784
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 2: to lie about where she was consciousness of guilt. That's

785
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 2: what that shows. You're willing to lie in fabricated defense.

786
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:22,760
Speaker 1: Is that legal?

787
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 2: Now?

788
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: Can you do any of this now?

789
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 2: No? Now, once you've been indicted, you represented by counsel.

790
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 2: You cannot be questioned by anybody who's a plant for

791
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 2: the police. Now, if you happen to be yapping by

792
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 2: yourself and somebody overhears it and reports it, that's a

793
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 2: different story. But you cannot be set up in this manner.

794
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 2: And Sam Siriani, who was the undercover cop who posed

795
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 2: as her false alibi witness, pressured the hell out of Barbara.

796
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 2: He is on tape. In part. The tape didn't work

797
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 2: real well because back then hitt and tape recorders were

798
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 2: not what they are today. But he pressured her constantly

799
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 2: said and admitted it that he was. You got to

800
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 2: tell me, you got to tell me where were you

801
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:05,879
Speaker 2: were you with them? You've got to say it, say

802
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: it's say it, And he had to do that repeatedly

803
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 2: to get her to finally gave in and say yes,

804
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 2: I was there. So none of that would fly today.

805
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 2: What happens when she gets on the stand. So that

806
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 2: was dining Brook. They presented the bombshell witness who was

807
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 2: his undercover cop at the end of the prosecution's case,

808
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: and it was just all hell broke loose. Now she's

809
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: got to testify. What was she going to say, Well,

810
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 2: she's going to say that she was pressured into securing

811
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 2: a false alibi because she was terrified. True. That was true.

812
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 2: Between her lawyer most importantly and Donna, she was given

813
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 2: the distinct impression that she was dead meat unless she

814
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 2: came up with an alibi. She couldn't just say I

815
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 2: don't know where I was, which is what she had

816
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 2: been saying all along until she came in and went

817
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 2: for this false alibi, and she had to get up

818
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 2: on the sand and say that. And as it turned out,

819
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,720
Speaker 2: they wound up finding a good alibi witness, purely by accident.

820
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 2: The neighbor that lived next door in this very small

821
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 2: duplaye was the perfect defense witness that you could ever

822
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 2: possibly imagine. This little girl and she had been crippled

823
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 2: by some form of polio or disease, and she had

824
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 2: to have her leg braces tightened or adjusted periodically, like

825
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 2: once a week. And so she could actually establish that

826
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 2: she was home on the night of the burglary murder

827
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 2: because she had been to a hospital appointment at a

828
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 2: certain point in time close to that and that she

829
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: heard Barbara and her husband arguing that night at home,

830
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 2: so Barbara couldn't have been at the crime scene and

831
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,720
Speaker 2: she was unassailable. The prosecution went crazy trying to prove

832
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 2: that her records were wrong, the hospital records were wrong. Ultimately,

833
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 2: I think it wound up being a wash because no

834
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 2: one could figure out the hospital kept terrible records, was

835
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 2: a mess, and no one could tell. And had Barbara

836
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 2: not been suckered into the false alibi, she probably would

837
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 2: have gotten at least a hang jury and maybe acquitted,

838
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 2: because this little witness was so very entrancingly credible.

839
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: But wrong, right but wrong.

840
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think honestly believed it. You know, she

841
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 2: believed Barbara and they were home every night arguing, so

842
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 2: you can see where she would mistakenly believe she was

843
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 2: home that night as well.

844
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 1: So Barbara's on the stand, and how is she described

845
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: by reporters?

846
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 2: So Barbara's on the stand, cross examination with the prosecutor.

847
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 2: Jamiler Levy was an icon in the DA's office. You know,

848
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 2: everybody would oh, Jamiler Levy, he's amazing, and every time

849
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 2: we lost a case, we'd joke Jamiler Levy could have

850
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,479
Speaker 2: won it. And I was really excited initially to read

851
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 2: the transcripts of this trial because you know, he's an

852
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 2: icon and he was a hero in our office. And

853
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 2: I was desperately disappointed in reading what he really did

854
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 2: in court and what a sleeves bag he really was.

855
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 2: He went after Barbara Hammer and Ton on a personal

856
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 2: level that was despicable, and he spent an inordinate amount

857
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 2: of time, a despicable amount of time smacking her around

858
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 2: with the love letters to Donna, going after her on

859
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 2: a personal level. Dude, you don't need to do it.

860
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 2: You know, it's enough that she'd secured a false alibi,

861
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 2: she admitted to the guy that she was there at

862
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 2: the scene of the crime. You don't need to disparage

863
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: her this way. Because he knew the Moreys of the

864
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 2: fifties were such that being in a gay relationship was

865
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 2: not something that people today would go whatever, you know,

866
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 2: but not back then. That then it was known to

867
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 2: be a horrible thing. You couldn't be gay, you weren't

868
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 2: allowed to be gay, and that, and then you were

869
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 2: a person of such ill repute and moral disrepute that

870
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 2: you couldn't you we're capable of anything. And he used

871
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 2: that endlessly although he had there was really no need.

872
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 2: And it was an ugly, ugly scene, but Barbara stood

873
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 2: toe to toe with him. She would knock back down

874
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 2: at one point, you know, he said, and then you

875
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 2: you deliberately lied. You deliberately did this. You you secured

876
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 2: that alibi from him, and you you told him that

877
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 2: you were You concocted this entirely fabricated but very elaborate

878
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 2: ruse about where you were with him, didn't you? And

879
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 2: then she said, you know, I was desperate. Can you

880
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 2: imagine being desperate? Have you ever been there? I don't

881
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: think you have, but you if you had been in

882
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 2: my shoes, you might have been. I mean, women didn't

883
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 2: stand up like that back then, I got to say.

884
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 2: And although I was I admired it, I don't know

885
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,280
Speaker 2: that the women back then necessarily did.

886
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: What was the makeup of the jury male to female?

887
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,479
Speaker 2: I think it was like seven to five for men.

888
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 2: And then, of course Jamiller leave the enclosing argument made

889
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 2: sure to nullify any impact Barbara's beauty might have. He

890
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 2: called her out. He spoke directly to the men on

891
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 2: the jury. Why do you think she took the witness stand.

892
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 2: She only did it so she could turn your heads,

893
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 2: so she could seduce you and tempt you. And that's

894
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 2: the only reason she was up there. Oh, really, you

895
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 2: don't think that the fact that she got caught with

896
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 2: a false alibi had something to do with it that

897
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 2: she had to explain? Really, that wasn't it. It was

898
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 2: horrible And yeah, but his remonstration to the men on

899
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 2: the jury that not to be tempted by this villainous

900
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 2: seductress really did find purchase with the men on the jury,

901
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 2: And one of them came out later, one of the

902
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,760
Speaker 2: male jurors, and said, Yeah, I didn't buy her act

903
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 2: at all. I wasn't going to get pulled into that story.

904
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: It worked, did Barbara's I don't know if she just

905
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: had one attorney or multiple. Were they public defenders? Were

906
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: they high profile who took this case?

907
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 2: So back then there was no public defender. And so

908
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 2: what would happen is if someone was charged with a

909
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 2: very serious crime and couldn't afford a lawyer, the court

910
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 2: would require a private attorney to take the case pro bono,

911
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 2: that is, for no money, for free. Now that's one

912
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 2: thing if you have a case that pleads guilty right away,

913
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 2: or it takes three days or four days to go

914
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 2: to trial, but a case like this that took months

915
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 2: to prepare and then you know, be in trial, your

916
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 2: practice goes completely down the drain. I don't know how.

917
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,919
Speaker 2: Jack Hardy, Jack Cardy was her lawyer, and he had

918
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,320
Speaker 2: a younger man Wolf as his assistant. But Jack Hardy

919
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 2: was the mainstay. He was the one, and he a

920
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 2: very talented lawyer. He did an amazing job, he really,

921
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 2: he just he pulled out all the stops. He spared

922
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 2: no effort. He was very impressive. But he did it

923
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 2: totally for free. That was the system back then, not anymore,

924
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 2: of course, but it hamstrung him in many ways. Here's one,

925
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 2: because he got no money that many he couldn't afford

926
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 2: to hire an investigator. That meant that when he needed

927
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 2: to find witnesses, he needed to get the prosecution to

928
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 2: do him a favor send their cop out to help

929
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 2: to find a witness for him, because although the marshals

930
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 2: would serve subpoenas for the defense, and they were fine,

931
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 2: but they didn't have time to go chasing down every

932
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 2: defense witness. You know, they were limited in their amount

933
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 2: of time. Now, the minute the undercover cop testified on

934
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 2: the witness stand, he revealed the existence of Donna Prowe.

935
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 2: Donna Prowe was a go between that got Barbara to

936
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 2: go along with this scheme, false alibi. She would be

937
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 2: a key witness. She would be someone who could help

938
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 2: prove to the jury that Barbara got pressured inordinately to

939
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 2: go along with this whole plan, that it wasn't her idea,

940
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 2: that it was Donna's idea. Donna acting for the police,

941
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 2: that looks a lot different than if it's just Barbara's idea,

942
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 2: and she agrees to go along with it happily. And

943
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 2: that was the impression they got because there was no Donna.

944
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 2: So the defense the minute they heard Sirianni mentioned her name,

945
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 2: jumped up and said, where's Donna Prow. We got to

946
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 2: find Donna Prow. They went to the Marshall's office. The

947
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 2: Marshall tried to serve her with the information they had,

948
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 2: couldn't find her. The defense went to the prosecution. Jack

949
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 2: Hardy said, help me find her, Please help me. I

950
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 2: can't find her. Well, you should send the Marshal out.

951
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,760
Speaker 2: I did. The Marshall can't find her. Look, they returned

952
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 2: the subpoena and said, we can't find her. Help me.

953
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,439
Speaker 2: We can't help you. It's not our job, it's your problem. Well,

954
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 2: as it turned out, the prosecution buried her. The prosecution

955
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 2: knew exactly where she was, They helped her move, they

956
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 2: helped her leave the state, They knew exactly when she

957
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 2: was and where she was at all times, and deliberately

958
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 2: lied to the defense.

959
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: I mean, isn't this must have just blown you away.

960
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: I'm sure you knew the history you know of criminal

961
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: justice system in LA, but I'm sure you've never dug

962
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: this deeply into something. And I know you already talked

963
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 1: about being disillusioned by this hero. So you must have

964
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 1: really been, I don't know, just stunned by how much

965
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,439
Speaker 1: things had changed, even between fifty three and ninety five

966
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: when you were trying the Simpson case.

967
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 2: I was disgusted. I was infuriated. I was you know,

968
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 2: I don't even have all the adjectives. There were times

969
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 2: reading the transcripts that I had to stand up and

970
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 2: walk away, take deep breaths, get a grip. It's like,

971
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 2: how could you do this? How dare you do this?

972
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 2: This is injustice in some of its most profound ways,

973
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 2: because one thing that a prosecutor can do that is

974
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 2: the one of the worst things they could do. A

975
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 2: very bad thing would be some morning perjury. But right

976
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,879
Speaker 2: up there is hiding the evidence, hiding key witnesses. It's unthinkable,

977
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 2: and that he would do such a thing willingly, knowingly,

978
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 2: and the records I uncovered showed absolutely they did. It

979
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 2: was just unconscionable.

980
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 1: How is that prevented? Now? How do you know as

981
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: a prosecutor that the defense isn't you know, is holding

982
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,240
Speaker 1: anything back during discovery or vice versa.

983
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 2: The defense is holding something back. I mean, you know,

984
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 2: in my day, when I think the earlier days as

985
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 2: a prosecutor, they were allowed to They didn't have to

986
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 2: give us any discovery at all, so we would find

987
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 2: out who the defense witnesses were when they walked into court.

988
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,879
Speaker 2: And it's hard to get prepared for cross examination when

989
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,320
Speaker 2: that's all you've got is someone's sitting on the witness

990
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 2: stand and giving their story for the first time. Nowadays

991
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 2: it's they try to balance it more and the defense

992
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 2: has the duty to produce the discovery on witnesses they

993
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 2: do intend to call and largely you know, I didn't

994
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,879
Speaker 2: have any concern about that until the Cimizen case, when

995
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:03,959
Speaker 2: they were hiding basic everything than that was the joke,

996
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 2: not such your joke of the trial when Karl Douglas

997
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 2: would have to fall on his sword repeatedly because the

998
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 2: defense kept sandbagging us and hiding things until they showed

999
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 2: up in court, it was that was crazy. But that's

1000
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 2: not nearly as bad as a prosecutor hiding the ball.

1001
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 2: That is the worst, because it's the it's the state's

1002
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,240
Speaker 2: duty to do it right. There are two different roles

1003
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 2: in our system of justice. The defendant had the defense

1004
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,280
Speaker 2: attorney only owes a duty of fealty to his client.

1005
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 2: That's it. He has to represent the client, who the

1006
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,919
Speaker 2: best of his ability, do the best job he possibly can.

1007
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 2: But a prosecutor owes the state the duty of seeking justice,

1008
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 2: the duty of making sure that there's a fair trial,

1009
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 2: that due process is observed, and that a defendant is

1010
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 2: fairly convicted of what he did, not what you dream

1011
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 2: he might have done, what you can actually prove of,

1012
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 2: what the evidence justifies as proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

1013
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 2: And you don't hide evidency, you don't hide witnesses, you

1014
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 2: don't coach witnesses. You're not allowed to do any of

1015
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:05,880
Speaker 2: that stuff. As a prosecutor, you owe a higher duty.

1016
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 2: It's a different position than a defense attorney. And to

1017
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 2: see a prosecutor who abandon every principle and those principles

1018
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 2: who are in play even in Levy's time, is a

1019
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 2: horrifying thing. I mean, you see, it's really it's a

1020
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 2: dagger in the heart of democracy to undermine the system

1021
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 2: of justice in this way, because that completely hobbles the

1022
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 2: search for the truth.

1023
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: Let's wrap up what happens with Barbara, which boy, I

1024
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 1: was optimistic for a long time, and then we get

1025
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: to the jury. How long are they out and what

1026
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 1: ends up happening here?

1027
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 2: I mean, the jury was hardly out very long at all.

1028
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 2: They sequestered the jury, they went out for a day

1029
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 2: and a night. I think that's basically it. The only

1030
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 2: issue that they hung up on. They found them, like,

1031
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 2: they all guilty relatively quickly, but they had to also

1032
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 2: decide the issue of penalty at the same time. They

1033
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 2: had to decide whether or not they were put to death. Now,

1034
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 2: they had a system back then that was really not good,

1035
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 2: and they do it anymore, thank goodness. But they did

1036
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 2: not have to actually affirmatively vote for death to put

1037
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 2: a defendant to death. All they had to do was

1038
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 2: simply not vote for leniency. So if they didn't vote

1039
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 2: affirmatively for leniency, that meant the death penalty, which is horrible.

1040
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,280
Speaker 2: If you're going to have a jury take the responsibility

1041
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 2: of imposing the ultimate penalty, the very least you can

1042
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 2: do is make it an affirmative act that they have

1043
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:29,359
Speaker 2: to put their stamp on this and say, yes, yes, affirmatively,

1044
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 2: we want to put this person to death. But they didn't,

1045
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 2: and ultimately they simply voted to not exercise leniencity all

1046
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 2: three of them were put to death. Barbara was on

1047
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 2: death row for a period of two years and then executed,

1048
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 2: so they moved very quickly.

1049
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: Back then were there no appeals.

1050
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 2: There were repeated appeals, and she had a lawyer for

1051
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 2: her appellate process who was indefatigable. This guy filed motions

1052
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 2: and habeas, petitions, every appeal you could think of, to

1053
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 2: every court he could find. And then another attorney stepped in,

1054
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 2: William Strong. Very smart. He stepped in, and I thought,

1055
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 2: this is a real appellate attorney because he nailed the issues.

1056
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 2: He was a little ahead of his time, but he

1057
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 2: was right on the money. He filed the petitions for

1058
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:16,360
Speaker 2: curgerary with the United States Supreme Court and tagged the

1059
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 2: issues that would ultimately prove to be among the most

1060
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 2: compelling and would change the law ultimately with regard to

1061
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,839
Speaker 2: Messiah versus the United States, where you know you're not

1062
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: they could They couldn't put Sirianni in the cell with

1063
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 2: her once she had a lawyer appointed, was indicted, that

1064
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 2: kind of thing. He raised all of those issues back

1065
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 2: then that did become the law ultimately, and Justice I

1066
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 2: think it was Justice Douglas who actually voted to grant

1067
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,720
Speaker 2: the stay of execution for a period of time because

1068
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 2: he wanted to hear the case in the United States

1069
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 2: Supreme Court. But the other justices didn't agree and it

1070
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:57,280
Speaker 2: went back down. And then ultimately all of the appeals,

1071
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 2: and they were considerable number were denied.

1072
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: Personally, where did Barbara end up with her mother, her

1073
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: loser husband, Tommy, her other kids? Was she able to

1074
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 1: say goodbye to all of these people or did she

1075
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:12,839
Speaker 1: want to say goodbye to her mother?

1076
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 2: Her mother? No, I mean her mother actually threw a

1077
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 2: monkey wrench into every effort, every effort she ever made

1078
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 2: to try and go legit. At one point she tried

1079
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 2: to re establish contact with her other two children. Her

1080
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:28,879
Speaker 2: mother made it a point to contact the women who

1081
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 2: were taking care of her children and say, don't let her,

1082
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,879
Speaker 2: don't let her get near those children. She's a terrible mother.

1083
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 2: And then Barbara was crushed by that. You know, she

1084
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 2: made a few efforts to go legit and straighten her

1085
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 2: life out, and her mother was there to make sure

1086
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 2: that never happened. So, no, there was no contact with

1087
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 2: the mother, rightfully, so, I think. As for Tommy, Tommy

1088
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 2: stayed with her final husband, Hank's mother, and did visit

1089
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 2: with her as much as possible while she was incarcerated.

1090
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:00,080
Speaker 2: She did not at the very end to get to

1091
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:01,879
Speaker 2: to be with Tommy, but I have been in touch

1092
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 2: with him online since then. He got a chance to

1093
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:06,800
Speaker 2: read the book and learn a little bit more about

1094
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 2: his mother. She really loved him, and at least I

1095
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 2: could give him that assurance.

1096
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 1: Ultimately, there are so many levels to this story where

1097
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 1: you learn all about the law and what would happen

1098
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 1: in the fifties through now, and misogyny and fem fatale

1099
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 1: crap that I hate, and you know all of this,

1100
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 1: But what is for you the big takeaway is it misogyny,

1101
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 1: sexism in the criminal justice system. Why do people now

1102
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: read your book and say, Wow, this feels recent or

1103
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 1: this feels so far beyond what I could ever imagine

1104
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 1: it would have been.

1105
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 2: Like the issues of the way in which justice can

1106
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 2: be subverted, that's evergreen. It may have been more extreme

1107
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 2: and more obvious in Barbera's case, although not necessarily, but

1108
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 2: a prosecutor can always skew the service of justice by

1109
00:57:56,480 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 2: simply not observing their duties as they should, and it

1110
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 2: occasionally it does happen. For example, there was a case

1111
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 2: about fifteen years ago, ten years ago, not so long ago,

1112
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 2: Nora Jackson was being tried for the murder of her mother.

1113
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 2: Was a heinous murder like fifty stab wounds, found dead

1114
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 2: in her bedroom, Nora was arrested for it. I'm still

1115
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 2: not convinced she did it at all. I think it

1116
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 2: was a very weak case, and the prosecution failed to

1117
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 2: turn over exculpatory testimony that impeached the statement of a

1118
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 2: key witness for the prosecution, and then the prosecutor, in

1119
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 2: the course of closing argument, violated one of the most

1120
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 2: well recognized rules in prosecutions, which is, you are not

1121
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 2: allowed to comment on a defendant's invocation of a Fifth

1122
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 2: Amendment right. You cannot comment on a defendant's right to

1123
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 2: remain silent, and you cannot tell the jury exhort the

1124
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 2: jury to infer from that consciousness of guilt. Back in

1125
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 2: Leedy's time, he did it all the time because that

1126
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 2: was allowed in California, even though it had been outlawed

1127
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 2: in the federal courts for many years. It was called

1128
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 2: the comment rule. You were allowed to do it. And

1129
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 2: then not long after Barbara's execution came Griffin versus California,

1130
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:09,680
Speaker 2: that outlawed in this state too, and I think it's

1131
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 2: not allowed in any state in the Union now. But

1132
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 2: the prosecutor, nonetheless, although for decades it had been the

1133
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 2: rule that you can't comment, turned to Nora in the

1134
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 2: course of closing argument and said, why won't you tell

1135
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 2: us where you were? Nora? Why won't you tell us?

1136
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 2: Knowing that she had invoked her right to remain silent.

1137
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 2: Case got reversed, So it's not like back then. But

1138
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:33,600
Speaker 2: you know, do prosecutors step over the line? Yes? Does

1139
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 2: it happen frequently? No? I do not think so. I

1140
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 2: think most of the time, and I mean by that

1141
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 2: an overwhelming majority of the time, the prosecutors do the

1142
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 2: right thing. But when they don't, we have to be

1143
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 2: there to make sure that it stopped and redressed.

1144
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 1: Do you find writing this kind of book as satisfying

1145
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 1: as writing fiction or trying cases? Where does it fall

1146
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 1: within you know, your skill set, your favorite things to do.

1147
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 2: I think I have to admit to being a true

1148
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 2: crime junkie. I think right here, true confession. I never

1149
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 2: thought of myself like that. But yeah, I think about

1150
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 2: all the things I like to do, and it all

1151
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 2: comes back. I am so consistent. Oscar Wilde would say

1152
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 2: I'm boring his help, but I think I like them all.

1153
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 2: It's like choosing your favorite child, you know. I like

1154
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 2: them all for different reasons. They all come down to though,

1155
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 2: solving the mystery of the human condition. You know, why

1156
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 2: do people do what they do? What provokes someone to

1157
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 2: do the ultimate act, to commit murder? And what do

1158
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 2: we find acceptable in that regard? Sometimes we do and

1159
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 2: we should and sometimes we don't and we shouldn't. But

1160
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 2: there are all these shades of gray that I find fascinating.

1161
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 2: In every case, there's something to think about, whether it's

1162
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:50,440
Speaker 2: a true crime situation or inventing a situation that poses

1163
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 2: these very same questions.

1164
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1165
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

1166
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock, and Don't Forget. There are

1167
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

1168
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

1169
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

1170
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis

1171
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 1: a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode

1172
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:34,920
Speaker 1: was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer,

1173
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

1174
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer follow Wicked Words on Instagram at

1175
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked, and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod.