1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: This is the Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio. Hello, 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: I'm Jason Kelly, and I'm Mike Lynch and I'm Michael Barr, 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: and we're here a few Mondays, Wednesdays and Thursdays explained 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: the big money issues in the world of sports, talking 5 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: to some of the biggest players in the industry. Today, 6 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:17,959 Speaker 1: I am so excited we are talking with author and 7 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: journalist Matt Heart about his new book. It's called When 8 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: It All Costs Inside Nike Running and its culture of Deception. 9 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: I full disclosure, I've said this to everybody on this 10 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: pot already. I'm obsessed with this book. I devoured it, 11 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: and I'm so excited Matt that you're here with us. 12 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: First of all, congratulations on the book. I mean, this 13 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: was a an undertaking. This is not like, let me 14 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 1: tell you some things about my wanderings through the world. 15 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: This is a heavy duty investigative, journalistic enterprise. How do 16 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: you even go about attacking something like this? Well, thanks 17 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: for having me, guys. First of all, I appreciate your interests. 18 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: So you know, I've been writing about sports science and 19 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: and durance sport for years and had been you know, 20 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,919 Speaker 1: sort of poking around on this story as it started 21 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: to unfold, UM, and I ended up getting my hands 22 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: on a stolen document from the United States Anti Doping Agency. 23 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: It was thought that it is still thought that the 24 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: fancy Bear Russian hackers had stolen this document which basically 25 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: laid out the United States you sawt of entire case 26 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: against Nike and albert O Salazar and their team, doctor 27 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: Dr Jeffrey Brown in Houston, and UM, that's really where 28 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: it began for me. You know, it was a confidential source. 29 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: I got the document and started reporting on it immediately 30 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: for The New York Times, and then the book grew 31 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: out of that. There was such interest in what had 32 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: actually gone on behind the scenes, um, that I started 33 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: reporting it from that point on that and that was 34 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: two thousand seventeen, so it's almost taken up four years 35 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: in my life. At this point, Matt, I want to 36 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,559 Speaker 1: go back if we can and just set the table 37 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: a little bit around the Nike Oregon project because it 38 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: sort of refers back in any ways, not just to 39 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: the company's headquarters, but it's lineage and you know, all 40 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: the way back to the founding of the company by 41 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: Phil Knight and Bill Bowerman. UH and also it had 42 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: a noble goal, which was to sort of bring American 43 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: runners back to the top of the field in international competition. 44 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: So just take a beat for us and and explain 45 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: what that was and why Salazar was, at least on 46 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: the face of it, the right person to to be 47 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: the face of it and the head of it. Yeah. 48 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: So Alberto had been one of America's best marathon runners 49 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: and best athletes in the early nineteen eighties. He had 50 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: dominated the New York City MARATHONI one three times on 51 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 1: two he won the Boston Marathon. And as he was 52 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: leaving school and becoming a professional athlete, he was sponsored 53 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: by Nike, and back then UM running athletes weren't making 54 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: huge salaries, and so the sALS are and Nike's agreement 55 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: with stals Are back Spen has widely seen as sort 56 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: of the first considerable salary. I think it was a 57 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: quarter million dollar too, und fifty thousand dollars. And so 58 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: what ended up happening was Alberto had sort of overtrained himself, 59 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 1: you know, he had to stay at the top. UM 60 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: in endurance sports takes a lot of training, you know, miles, 61 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 1: hundreds of miles a week UM, and so he had 62 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: kind of overdone it. He overcooked himself, that the endercan 63 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: system was sort of destroyed. His hormones for a wreck, 64 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: you know, he became depressed and considered suicide. Part of 65 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: the contract negotiation with Nike early on, and one of 66 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: the reasons he said he took Nike oversea Adidas was 67 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: that they said to him in the contract apparently they said, 68 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: you know you can, there's an opportunity to come work 69 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: for us after your professional athletic career is over. And 70 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: so after he sort of burned out of the sport, 71 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: he took them up on that opportunity and he worked 72 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: in the marketing department at Nike. And so then fast 73 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: forward to two thousand and one, he's watching the Boston 74 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: Marathon two thousand one with Tom Clark and vice president 75 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: at Nike, and and Tom Clark as a runner, you know, 76 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: he finished I think thirty five more than thirty five marathons, 77 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: and Salas are in him are sitting there discussing how 78 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: poorly American athletes are running in the two thousand one 79 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: Boston Marathons. And so they have to plan that day 80 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 1: to start a team um using Nike's money and technology 81 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: and gadgets that Alberto could procure and they would use 82 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: you know, the funds from the Nike corporation and train 83 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: the Nike athletes right on the Nike campus um. And 84 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: so that started in two thousand one. It wasn't yet 85 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 1: called the Nike Oregon Project, and they tried to recruit 86 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: the best athletes they could and Alberto coached them, and 87 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: for about ten years it was a failure, complete failure. 88 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: You know. They were they were they were very good nationally, 89 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: but they weren't winning gold medals. They weren't reaching you know, 90 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: the top of the podium. And so that's when he 91 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: started to recruit a little bit earlier and earlier. That's 92 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,239 Speaker 1: when he found gav and Rut and that's when Adam 93 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: Goucher and the Gouch and Carrotoucher came into the scene. 94 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: Adam had just dominated the m C Double A at 95 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: the University of Colorado. He had signed initially with Phila, 96 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: and then six years later we're in two thousand and 97 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: four and Nike signed Adam after his contract with Phila 98 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: to be sort of the main character, the face of 99 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: the team and hopefully bring American running back to prominence, 100 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 1: you know, on the side. They signed Kara sort of 101 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: as an after thought, and interestingly his career and his 102 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: his career went on a downward trajectory. Well you know, 103 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,239 Speaker 1: she took off, and so that's how that relationship began. 104 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: And it was really just a process, you know. Adam 105 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: he had created himself, and so he actually made the 106 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: connection with the end of chronologist in Houston. His coach 107 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: at see you had said, I heard this guy is good, 108 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: and he connected him to Dr Jeffrey Brown, the doctor 109 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:43,799 Speaker 1: who you know has been danned from sport now with Alberto, 110 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: and that's been two thousand four. And what happens is 111 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: Alberto started to send all the athletes to Dr Brown, 112 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: and that basically happened, uh, you know, right up until 113 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: these guys were banned. But they had this sort of 114 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: unholy relationship where even if the athletes, for instance, wouldn't 115 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: test out of the norm, will arrange for thyroid for 116 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: t SH. Dr Brown sort of saw himself as a 117 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: groundbreaking doctor, so he would prescribe the athlete synthetic thyroid 118 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: hormone anyway, and this apparently helped them lose weight. Get 119 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: to wait, you know, it's very important and in durance 120 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: sport would help them get down to wait, it would 121 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: give them more energy, and Alberto sort of had this 122 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 1: pet theory that also helped with their testosterone levels. And 123 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: so now he had a doctor on board that could 124 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: help him prescribe things that were sort of in the 125 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 1: gray area. And like I said, at times they would 126 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: cross the line. And so you know, the team from 127 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: there really focused on Galen Ruff. As Adam sort of 128 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: his career started to decline, Alberto found fifteen year old 129 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: Galen Rup locally and started to coach the athlete. You know, 130 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: he went to the University of Oregon um, but was 131 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: coached by Alberto throughout that period. And you know, he's 132 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: he's probably still America's best marathon runners. For lack of 133 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: a better term, it took some brass ones to write 134 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: this because you're going up against the swoosh. I mean, 135 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: you're you're talking about the company that put their money 136 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: behind Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan's Lance Armstrong, they went, they 137 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: all were at one point the face of Nike, and 138 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: all of a sudden this story comes along. Can you 139 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: bring us more about why this story needed to be told? Yeah, 140 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: you know, the deeper I went and the more I reported, 141 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: it just really seemed like a story for our times. 142 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: You know, it's a it's a love story. There's a 143 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: story of deep betrayal here and corporate mouth season and 144 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: I just as I dug it became apparent that the 145 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: team was sort of an outgrowth of what was happening 146 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: in the upper level management at Nike. And so yeah, 147 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: I mean it just deserved a book length treatment and 148 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: book length narrative. There's so much here. The first time 149 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: I interviewed Adam Doucher, Adam and his wife's care were 150 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: some of the main whistleblowers to Sada. You know, that's 151 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: basically what he told me, that this there's too much 152 00:07:58,280 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: detail here, Matt, this is a book. This is the 153 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: going on for years, and there's relationships to unpack. And 154 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: the deeper I got, the more I actually couldn't believe 155 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: what I was finding in the reporting. So yeah, I 156 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: just thought it deserved a book length narrative. And the 157 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: story was actually crashing around me as I was reporting it. 158 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: You know, I'd get a little tidbit here from a source, 159 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: and I was excited to get it into the book 160 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: and then it would be reported in Sports Illustrated in 161 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: the New York Times. But I just kept plugging along, 162 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: and Alberto, you know, was banned September thirty from Sport 163 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: for four years, and so that gave us sort of 164 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: a natural conclusion to the story. Man, I'm sure there 165 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: are all kinds of hurdles, roadbox and impediments to writing 166 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: this story and into get into the truth. And the 167 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: biggest one was I mean, there's a number of angles 168 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: here I could go. I mean, one of the questions 169 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: I was trying to answer was what kind of corporate 170 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: context could give rise to a team like this, could 171 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:55,599 Speaker 1: allow Alberto to be you know, sexually explicit and inappropriated 172 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 1: time um as well as you know, waiting into these 173 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: gray areas with prescription drugs, and that ended up getting 174 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: him banned. So he obviously, you know, eventually crossed the line. 175 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: He was dabbling and testosterone on the Nike campus. And 176 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: so I think to answer the question what kind of 177 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: corporate context gave rise to a team like this and 178 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: allowed it to fester? I guess. And so let's talk 179 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: about that, Matt, because that was something that is a 180 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: thread that pulls through all of this. And you know, 181 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: I read Shoodog when it came out, and it's pretty 182 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: unvarnished and gives you some sense obviously from Phil Knight's 183 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: perspective of building the culture. But clearly this was enabled 184 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: to some extent, either implicitly or explicitly. And I think 185 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: you you touched on something that's really important, which is 186 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: the both the harassment element but also the gender inequality, 187 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: and that is I think best represented in your book 188 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: by the saga of Carragucher herself and the company refusing 189 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: to pay her, ring that it ends up being I 190 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: guess a six month suspension, but it starts out as 191 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: seventeen months, and then it goes to twelve, and then 192 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: it goes to six. But it's this whole question of 193 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: what appears to be, at least by my read, just 194 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: blatant unfairness and not only not living up to what 195 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: they promised given what she did in terms of living 196 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: up to her end of the bargain, but also a 197 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: real inequity when it comes to female athletes and male 198 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: athletes at Nike. Yeah, I mean it does seem even today. 199 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: I think yesterday on Instagram they had some you know, 200 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: really moving advertisements Nike did and posts about empowering female athletes, 201 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: and it does seem hypocritical um when you look at 202 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: how the company does it's business where you know, I 203 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: think I think Mark Parker of the year he denied 204 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 1: Kara that salary for not racing because she was pregnant, 205 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: and I think he made fourteen million dollars that year 206 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: and they they kept I think it was a hundred 207 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: and two dollars from her, a hundred and sixty of 208 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: her salary to basically stopped paying her. And this was 209 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: a tactic they've used with assistant coaches who were, you know, 210 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: maybe starting to ask too many questions of Alberto Um. 211 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: And it's described to me just initially as just a 212 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: way to keep an athlete or a coach on his 213 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: toes and maybe keep them a little them a little 214 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: bit fearful for their job. But yeah, there's a disconcruncy 215 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: here with what Nike advertises as as being, you know, 216 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: promoting women in sport versus with their contracts. And I 217 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: think they have made changes to their contracts recently and 218 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: they announced that and that was a great pr splash. 219 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: But you talk to athletes like care, she'll say, you know, 220 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: that's that's just talk that that doesn't actually fix the problem, um, 221 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: that that needs to be addressed, where basically they if 222 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: an athlete doesn't race for a hundred and twenty days 223 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: as is written in the contract, and of course that 224 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: varies here and there, they stopped paying them entirely. And 225 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: with Kara, they had promised to pay her. She was 226 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,839 Speaker 1: so um, she was such a high profile athlete there 227 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: they basically said, as long as you're doing your saying, 228 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: and she was on the cover of magazine and she was, 229 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: you know, doing interviews as a mom and what's it 230 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: what's it like to run and continue to train as 231 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: a mom? So there was this marketing effort behind her 232 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: that Nike was fully supporting, um, but yet they had 233 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: stopped paying her in the middle of it. And the 234 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: Gouchers were just shocked when they heard from their financial 235 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: advisor that, hey, my Nike money is not coming in anymore. 236 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: And then of course she couldn't get any answers and 237 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: eventually they just lost the money. They had to get 238 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: lawyers to fight Nike, and that was, you know, one 239 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: of their breaking points with the company because as soon 240 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: as you involved some lawyers, um, you know, they were 241 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: warned by on Burgo this will be the last, the 242 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 1: last bit of money you get from Nike. He'll never 243 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:41,959 Speaker 1: work for the company again if you do this, and 244 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: you know that speaks to the tribal mis of the 245 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: company as well. Can we talk about some of the 246 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: substances that you're saying that they used and the side 247 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: effects involved in Yeah, well, you know there's some context here. 248 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: It seems like the Lance and Armstrong era, you know, 249 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: there was just rampant treating cheating rather and you know, 250 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: injecting the vp O before you jump on your bike, 251 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: And it seems like that era really pushed the sport, 252 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: the sporting world, in durance sports in general, towards um 253 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: more gray area tactics, so rather than E p O 254 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: H and testosterone. I mean, that's not entirely true. Alberto 255 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: would ban from sport for trafficking testosterone, so that was 256 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,599 Speaker 1: still around. But it seems as though cycling teams and 257 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 1: Alberto at the same time, we're starting to experiment with 258 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: what prescription drugs can help us achieve the same sort 259 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: of level of performance, whether it's diuretics or changing an 260 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: athlete birth control pills so that they menstrate less often, 261 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: hold onto more blood and red blood cells which helps 262 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: them perform. Alberto, not being a doctor, was deeply involved 263 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: in all of these things with all of the athletes, 264 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: and at time, you know, not being a doctor and 265 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: not being able to connect the dots, he would have 266 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: the athletes to take substances that yeah, we're we're harmful 267 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: to their health. More far, the UK athlete is one 268 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: specifically as a condition and where his body creates a 269 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: bit too much calcium, and calcium for runners is important 270 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: to keep them from getting stress fractures the pounding of 271 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: running um you know, stress fractures or scourges in the 272 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: sport really because you're just out on the road hitting it, 273 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: hitting the ground so hard all the time. So a 274 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: lot of these drugs, it was more of an experiment. 275 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: It was it was a let's throw everything at the 276 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: wall and see what works. And you know, he found 277 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: that thyroid stimulating hormones worked. So he was testing testosterone 278 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: on the Nike campus. That's probably the most egregious and 279 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: that's that's one of the things he ended up serving 280 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,239 Speaker 1: the band for. Alberto had a bit of a obsession 281 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: with testosterone throughout his own career. He started using it 282 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: with you know, unbannounced to the sporting world, and so 283 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: he knew the powers of this drug and how a 284 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: performance enhancing it would be. UM. But being Nike, trying 285 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: to get back to your question here, they would find 286 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: out about substances that weren't readily available or research as 287 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: soon as it came out or even before it was 288 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: to be published. And so they found out about this 289 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: I mean no acid l Carnate team and UM some 290 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: some research that have been done in the UK, and 291 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: Alberto instantly mobilized the team and assistant coach and the 292 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: doctor to test the substance. Now, the substance itself is 293 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: not illegal, but the El Carnate team it's hard to 294 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: it doesn't it's not absorbed well by the muscles, and 295 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: there's some complications. You can't just drink it like a 296 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: cup of coffee in the morning and then have it 297 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: improved your performance later. And so they devised the scheme 298 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: where they would inject it or infuse it into the 299 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: athletes then to get to the levels of El Carnate 300 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: team they needed. They were doing this at a legal level, 301 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: so the World Anti Doping Agency has limits on how 302 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: much you can inject yourself or a doctor can inject 303 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: you or infuse you in a six hour periods and 304 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: that's just the barrier that they put there, and it's 305 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: fifty middle leaders. And so this is one of the 306 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: things he was banned from sport for. He ended up 307 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: testing a thousand middle leaders on the assistant coach who 308 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: was still racing and still active in the racing scene. 309 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: And so you know, he'd have waited into this um 310 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: area in a number of different ways with prescription drugs, 311 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: and Amino asked treatments that weren't yet readily known to 312 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: the general public. And so he just started to cross 313 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: the line here and there, and uh, the rumors, the 314 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: rumor mill eventually caught up with him and he sat 315 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: started investigating him. Hey, Matt, there's no bigger stage for 316 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: for any athlete, particularly runners, than the Olympics. And have 317 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: you been able to calculate what an Olympic medal would 318 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: be worth to the Nike brand. No, I haven't been 319 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: able to do that. It's interesting, you know, I point 320 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: out in the book, you're you're given an award, you're 321 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: given a sum of money for winning in that various 322 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: per country, but to Nike and the corporation it's I mean, 323 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: I think it's impossible to fare it out. Maybe I 324 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: could work with an economist to figure this one out, 325 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: but um, you know, running is found is the foundational 326 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: sport for Nike. So people often ask me this question 327 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: because they seem to put a lot of money into 328 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: the sport into their credit, they put a lot of 329 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: money in the track and field that it doesn't seem 330 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: like they get back on return of the return of investment. 331 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: It's interesting. You know, they make thirty five billion dollars 332 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: a year um in revenue and four point five of 333 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: that ish you know, that's two thousand and eleven number 334 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: or two thousand nine numbers. They make about four and 335 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: a half billion dollars in the category of running and 336 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: that's their largest category. Surprisingly well, when you add Jordan's 337 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: and the basketball category together, there's that category becomes slightly 338 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: higher and slightly more important. But the way they break 339 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 1: it out, running still looks like, um, the biggest money 340 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: maker for Nike, and it's just really important for them 341 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 1: to be uh, you know, there's a prominent brand in 342 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: the sport. They make the most money from the sport, 343 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: and so it's part and parcels, you know, the domination 344 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: of the sport is very, very important, and I heard 345 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: this time and again talking about meetings at Nike or 346 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: executives complaining that no Nike athletes were winning goals. That 347 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 1: became pretty obvious from from interviews with employees. Yeah, it's 348 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: it's You've had a great anecdote in the book about 349 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: Phil Knight watching Frank Shorter. You know what's meant to 350 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: be this culminating moment, keep me on. It's on this anecdote, 351 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 1: you know running. I believe the seventies six Olympics and 352 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: basically his Nike shoes like kind of give out on 353 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: him right before and he's got a run in his tigers. 354 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,239 Speaker 1: Do I have that right? Yeah, yeah, you have that right. 355 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: I thought that was pretty interesting. That was the Olympics 356 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: in Montreal and Frank Shorter had won the seventy two Olympics, 357 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,719 Speaker 1: so he was he was the man to beat on 358 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: the day. And with the death of Steve free Fontaine, 359 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 1: Frank told me, you know, I made an agreement with Nike. 360 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: And so it should be stated that this is in 361 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: the early days before professional running, so this is still 362 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: these are clandestine deals where Frank agreed to get paid 363 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: fifteen thousand dollars a year by Nike, you know, and 364 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: this is a secret deal that nobody knows about because 365 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: he's an amateur and you have to compete in the 366 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: athlete and the Olympics, you're supposed to remain an amateur. 367 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: And so Nike, not just Nike, of course, Adidas and Puma, 368 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: they were making under the table deals with athletes to 369 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: get them to hopefully, you know, run around the track, 370 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: do you know, with their shoes held high after winning 371 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: gold medals and so yes, Frank Um ended up just 372 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: warming up in the Nike shoe and it's sort of 373 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: it had de laminated on him and he wasn't wearing socks, 374 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: so his foot sort of showing through between the the 375 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 1: outsole in the upper and he had he had a 376 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: pair of shoes that in his room that he had 377 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: a friend run and get him, and he just barely 378 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 1: got him on in time. And you can still see 379 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: this in the footage that's on YouTube. He's sort of 380 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: tying his shoes on the side of the track moments 381 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: before the marathon started and ended up running in a 382 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 1: two GA Tigers. The next year that company was renamed 383 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: A six, So this is the origins of a fix 384 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: the shoe company, and Phil Knight in his biography talks 385 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: about how he was watching these Olympics and he really 386 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: they had all their hopes pinned on Frank Shorter, and 387 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: then they realized he's wearing their enemies, the enemy's shoes, 388 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: um and he sort of started screaming at the television 389 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: his in his anecdote. But yeah, I mean, that's just 390 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: shows again how important winning racism and the sport of 391 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: running is to Nike. It really is their foundational sport. 392 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: And for the kids out there listening, I mean, there 393 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 1: was no one in many ways bigger than Frank Shorter, 394 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: and you know, as an American athlete in some ways, 395 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: you know he was. He was world famous. I do 396 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: have to ask you, speaking of world famous athletes, there 397 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: is a through line, a strong through line, especially towards 398 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: the end of the book when you talk about Lance 399 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 1: Armstrong and both the relationship with Nike, but also how 400 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: everything with albert O Salazar and the Oregon project sort 401 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: of comes undone because of the connectivity between the Armstrong 402 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: investigation and ultimately the investigation there tell us about that 403 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: connection because it I feel like it's it's almost both 404 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: technical and spiritual in some ways, because there are there 405 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: are a lot of overlapping themes. Yeah. Well, when Lance, 406 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: you know last was the most famous athlete on earth 407 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 1: for many years and a Nike stalwart, and that's how 408 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: the two men became connected. And when Lance started to 409 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 1: run marathons after his UM i think his first retirement, 410 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: Salazar and him became close and they started talking training 411 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: and training techniques and I'm sure supplements and other techniques. 412 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 1: But the teammates on the Nike organ project sort of 413 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: detailed through the years. Where as it became apparent that 414 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: Lance Armstrong was cheating and was on drugs, they were 415 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,239 Speaker 1: you know, Lance would be on TV and they'd hear 416 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: comments from salas Are, so it was obvious to them 417 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: that he knew Lance was using performance enhancing drugs and 418 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: was doping to win the races and the athletes, you know, 419 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: it started just to shift their perspective on on Alberto 420 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: in general, because he wasn't damning. When Tyler Hamilton, the 421 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 1: teammate of Armstrongs, came out with the book, you know, 422 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: it's described to me how Alberto was angry at Tyler 423 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: and saying he just wanted to make money rather than 424 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: admitting a Lance Armstrong was the one that was probably 425 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: wrong in this situation. You know, it just struck the 426 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: athletes as they couldn't believe it. You know, Salazar just 427 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: deeply admired Armstrong and how tough he was. Um as 428 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,400 Speaker 1: did you know the Nike campus. That really becomes clear. 429 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: And so the two men, you know, began working together 430 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: on the side, helping. Alberto would help Armstrong with his 431 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: run training. UM. And you know, as he came out 432 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: in the assad A document, as soon as Alberto started 433 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 1: testing how CARNA team, he had some early evidence that 434 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: it was a real game changer, that it was a 435 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: real performance enhancing drug, and so he had emailed Lance, 436 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: it's it's amazing and it's all legal and I'm not 437 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: going to tell anyone about it except you and Galen 438 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: Rock and so, you know, this is also indicative of 439 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: how he treated the team. Some athletes had full information 440 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 1: about the substances, some didn't. Many of them began to 441 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 1: get worried with Alberto's ability to sort of juggle all 442 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 1: these stuff stances there there on. You know, David Ritzenheim 443 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: comes to mind there where you know, he asked you know, 444 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: he started to feel off, is on thyroid hormone and 445 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 1: a number of other things, and he just started to 446 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: get scared. And so I think this is where things 447 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: start to unravel for the athletes. You know, their coach 448 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: is the deeply admiring lamp Armstrong, when everyone else seems 449 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 1: to be uh in full realization that he cheated to 450 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: win his entire career, and so that just sort of 451 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: sets a lot of them off early on, and then 452 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: you know just how he ends up. You know, I 453 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: make the analogy in the book that Armstrong had been 454 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: discarding people in his orbit that sort of went against 455 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: him or argued against him. And I mean, I think 456 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: in my analysis of the story in the Organ Project, 457 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 1: that is exactly what happened to Alberto. He had just 458 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: left such a long trail of you know, angry and 459 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: disaffected athletes. Anyone who challenged him was fired and and 460 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: you tell the rest of the team he was crazy 461 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: or he was drunk, and you know, you if everything 462 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: is on the up and up, he probably could have 463 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: gotten away with that for the rest of his life. 464 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: He had stepped over the line and into you know, 465 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 1: cheating and using performance and its methods in substances. You know, 466 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: that all just came back, that all just came back 467 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 1: to Biden, and I think that's pretty analogous to the 468 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: Armstrong story. I have to ask what the responsibility for 469 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 1: Nike and Salaz are getting four years suspension? Is that enough? 470 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: And has Nike paid the price? I mean, it's a 471 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: quartering from this book. This is like a Ralph Nadars 472 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: kind of unsafe in any speed book, which you know 473 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: brought out the Corvette, and I'm just wondering it has 474 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: Nike really paid the price for this? You know, there's 475 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 1: a through line in the book too about the stock pricing. 476 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: You know, the only I really think, the only lever 477 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: the community has, or Wall Street has, is to ding 478 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: them in some way. And it seems like no one's 479 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: paying attention because the stock recently hit an all time high. 480 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: I think it's aid a hundred and thirty dollars a 481 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: share today, and you know, even through Harper's Magazine publishes 482 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: the sweat Stop controversy. And if you look at the 483 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 1: stock over time, of course it does its thing where 484 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: it dips here and there, but it is it is 485 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: only going up, and it has continued to go up 486 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: now Nike, you know, had stood behind Lance Armstrong until 487 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: literally the last moment, and it appears as though they're 488 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: doing that with Alberto Salaza. They're they're still funding him. 489 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: They funded the lawyers and in the legal case against Usada, 490 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: they did it for the athletes, and Dr Jeffrey Brown 491 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: as well. Mark Parker, you know, before he stepped aside 492 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: in January, basically said we don't think this is a 493 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 1: fair penalty for Albertolin and I'm unsure of how to 494 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: unpack that. It seems like they're just deeply loyal to 495 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: deep athletes who have been deeply loyal to them, and 496 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: they failed to see the entire story. You know, if 497 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: you've been following along, um, you wouldn't have sent you know, 498 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: Nike being the brand that it is, the best and brightest, 499 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: young American athletes of course want to run for the sponsor. 500 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: And so we have an athlete like Jordan's say or 501 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: Mary King, these young girls that are just phenomenal early on, 502 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: and had Nike been paying attention and honestly looking at 503 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: what was sitting around Alberto, they would not have funneled 504 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: these athletes to him, you know, And so Mary Kane 505 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: of course now has come out and say she believes 506 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: believes the team and the and the Nike adorned men 507 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: basically abused her while she was on the team. And 508 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: I that has to be laid on Nike corporate. You know, 509 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: they took these athletes who were coming into their orbit 510 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: looking for sponsorship and funneled them to an embattled coach. 511 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: I mean, there's no other way to say it. Had 512 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: they even read everything that had hit the news, I 513 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: don't know, it's hard to say how they can constably 514 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: do that, um, you know, and so I think they've 515 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: got a lot to answer for UM. And and you know, 516 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: I try to I try to figure out how that's possible. 517 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: And I heard from more than one person that Phil 518 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: Knight and Alberto were just very close. Alberto is like 519 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: a son to him, and that was a similar situation 520 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: to Phil Knight and Lance Armstrong. UM. Now, you know, 521 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: Phil doesn't mention Lams Armstrong and his biography at all, 522 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: but I know the two men still talk and they're 523 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 1: still very close. And so there's an admiration there for 524 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: a win it all costs athletes. It's doesn't seem to care. 525 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: You know that that lamps have been cheating throughout his 526 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: entire career. Um, it's just a culture of of idolatry, 527 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: I guess. I mean, you know, they just see these 528 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: athletes as you know, the best thing on earth, and 529 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: they treat them in that way. And the more they win, 530 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: the tighter the bond with the brand becomes, and the 531 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: more money they end up paying the athletes. So so, Matt, 532 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: what's the takeaway from this book for a for a 533 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: young up and coming runner? Um is that the Nikey 534 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: brand radioactive right now to these young people. It's hard 535 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: to say, and I mean one would think it should 536 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: be or at least, you know, some hard discussion should 537 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: have to happen. Nike famous, we're doing sort of internal investigations, 538 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: and I should say during the Alberto sALS Are scandal 539 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: they were doing they were doing an internal investigation. But 540 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: again it doesn't seem like there's any object objectivity there. 541 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: And so the internal investigation said he's doing he's done 542 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: nothing wrong, and so that should scare the athlete. And 543 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: famous athletes like Layne Slam again who runs for them, 544 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 1: came out and said at one point she couldn't believe 545 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: that these young, these young, these young promising female runners 546 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: were signing up with Alberto, and she even said at 547 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: the time, like, you have to look at who you're 548 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: surrounding yourself with, who's in your orbit, who your coaches. 549 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: And I think that's the lesson. You know, it's heartbreaking 550 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: to to as I started to unpack the Goucher, the 551 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 1: Carrick Goucher story. You know, she had come to love 552 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: Alberto like a father and galen Up was like a 553 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: brother to her. And there has to be this trust 554 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: between coach and athlete, and and she had it and 555 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: they developed it. You know, you have to believe what 556 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: your coach is telling asking you to do or telling 557 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: you to do um is exactly what you should be doing. 558 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: So you have to completely buy in. And then there's 559 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: these close bonds UM. So for the young athlete, you know, 560 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: reading this story hopefully just allows them to see it 561 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: for what it is. I mean, unfortunately, and I hate 562 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: to be the wet blanket here, but the athlete or 563 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: commodities to Nike, you know, they're traded from sponsor to sponsors. 564 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: They're paid when they're doing well, and they're cut or 565 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: not paid when they're not doing well. And that's the 566 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: unfortunate truth of professional sports. And so a young athlete 567 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: or or someone who's coaching a young athlete needs to 568 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: fully realize this is not necessarily all it's cut out 569 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: to be, or all it might seem maybe on social media. 570 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: Just to be weary of it and go into the 571 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: relationship with your eyes fully wide open and um you 572 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: know that, and hopefully change the contract if it's you know, 573 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: obviously it's been paidous to Nike rather than you. Yeah. 574 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: Now it's a great point, and I think it suddenly 575 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: it comes through very clearly in the book, this notion 576 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: that this is one of the most intimate and familial 577 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: relationship familiar like relationships that people enter into and you know, 578 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: literally giving over their bodies in many ways, um to 579 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: a company and too to a coach, and and ultimately 580 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, uh, it is a 581 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: business and those things are not always Congruss as you say, 582 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: Matt Heart, congratulations on the bucket really is a terrific read. 583 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: It's called winn It All Costs inside Nike Running and 584 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: its culture of deception. Check it out. You will learn 585 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: a lot and it's just I can't recommend it enough. 586 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: So thank you so much for joining us, Matt Oh, 587 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: thanks for having me. I appreciate it, and you can 588 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: catch our podcast right here every Monday, Wednesday and Thursday. 589 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: I'm Jason Kelly. Find me on Twitter at Jason Kellys 590 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: and I'm Mike Lynch. You can follow me at Lynch 591 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: e w c VB, and I'm Michael Barr at Big 592 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: Barr Sports on Twitter. You're listening to Bloomberg Business of 593 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: Sports Bloomberg Radio around the world.