Speaker 1: What's that at the bed spooky? I'm pretty sure it's dead.
Speaker 1: It's coming this way. Wait a minute, i'd hiros dress.
Speaker 1: Hey boo, it's me Raz, Happy Halloween time. I can't
Speaker 1: think of a better guest to be joined by than
Speaker 1: Michelle Bell and j who has been on this show before.
Speaker 1: People went crazy for her, so gotta get her back
Speaker 1: on and I'm sure I'm hoping this won't be the
Speaker 1: last time. And if you don't know who Michelle is,
Speaker 1: she's been on TV shows like Paranormal State and one
Speaker 1: of my favorites, Portal to Hell, and she's been on
Speaker 1: this show also, And so if you want to go
Speaker 1: back and hear more about her haunted AIRB and B
Speaker 1: her psychic abilities. She's also a demonologist, you can go
Speaker 1: back and listen. Actually, not that long ago, maybe six
Speaker 1: months ago or so. She was on the show that
Speaker 1: was posted on April fifteenth, and it was a two parter,
Speaker 1: so also April twenty second, so go check that out
Speaker 1: as well. She also was a great website that is
Speaker 1: very comprehensive. She's written a lot of books as well,
Speaker 1: So on this week's episode today we're going to be
Speaker 1: talking more about that haunted airb and b of hers
Speaker 1: and you know, protecting yourself from dark energies, and we
Speaker 1: get into psychic vampirism, which is something I don't think
Speaker 1: has ever come up on the show. And this is
Speaker 1: also going to be a two part so we'll have
Speaker 1: more to talk about next week with Michelle as well.
Speaker 1: And this week on Patreon, I asked her a question
Speaker 1: I've always wondered. Can human spirits possess living humans? You
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like it's always so always talking
Speaker 1: about these demons are possessing people, but like, you know,
Speaker 1: could just like you know, your good old fashioned ghost
Speaker 1: get inside of a human. And Michelle had an answer
Speaker 1: and an incredible story to share. So that's on my
Speaker 1: second tier Patreon Patreon dot com slash roles dres Falas.
Speaker 1: And while I'm promoting things, I should also tell you
Speaker 1: that indeed, the first live show back after Lockdown and everything,
Speaker 1: a COVID Safe Ghosted live show in Los Angeles, has
Speaker 1: sold out. So I've decided to add another show and
Speaker 1: I'm going to do that on Saturday of Halloween weekend,
Speaker 1: So it's Saturday, the thirtieth of October, and that is
Speaker 1: at the Cavern clubs, celebrity theater at Casita del Campo,
Speaker 1: gorgeous Mexican restaurant. Eat, go, eat some Mexican food, and
Speaker 1: then come on down, come on down to the little
Speaker 1: theater that people say is haunted. And I've got some
Speaker 1: silly you know, just typical raws, stupid, silly paranormal comedy
Speaker 1: for you. And I'm also gonna have a surprise guest
Speaker 1: or too. Different shows, different nights, well, different guests, different nights.
Speaker 1: I'm sure there'll be similarities between the shows, so if
Speaker 1: you're able to go, that will be the thirtieth. I
Speaker 1: have the ticket link in the description of this episode,
Speaker 1: and also in there the ghosted merch link is back up.
Speaker 1: It was down for a minute, it's back. I've got pins,
Speaker 1: I've got stickers, I've got t shirts, I've got teut bags.
Speaker 1: You can find all of that in the description of
Speaker 1: this episode. Okay, I think it's time to get into
Speaker 1: another conversation with one of my favorite guests, Michelle Bell
Speaker 1: and Jay On with the show. I am so honored
Speaker 1: to be joined again by one of the most brilliant
Speaker 1: minds on the occult, the paranormal, the supernatural, all the
Speaker 1: things that we love to talk about. Michelle Bellanjay, welcome back.
Speaker 2: Hello, thank you for having me again.
Speaker 1: I loved having you last time, and you answered so
Speaker 1: many of my questions. And don't you worry, I have
Speaker 1: got I've got a lot more for you. I was
Speaker 1: actually just watching I stumbled upon this show that I've
Speaker 1: fallen in love with on Netflix. It's called what is
Speaker 1: it called The Most the World's Most Amazing Vacation Rentals?
Speaker 1: And who do I see but you and the B
Speaker 1: and B your Airbnb, your haunted Airbnb that we talked
Speaker 1: about the last time you were here, and I loved it?
Speaker 1: How was that? How was that experience having them come by?
Speaker 2: The hardest thing was keeping quiet about it for nearly
Speaker 2: two years because that was in the works for a
Speaker 2: while and the pandemic sort of hung it up a
Speaker 2: little bit. But they were so sweet. I love the hosts.
Speaker 1: They're so cute. I love them so much energy.
Speaker 2: They were just enthusiastic about everything, and the folks who
Speaker 2: filmed there were very respectful of the place and as
Speaker 2: for like. As for inspiration House's debut on a television show,
Speaker 2: I couldn't have asked for better because it was more
Speaker 2: about the house and its history and why I love
Speaker 2: it than just trying to make it spooky sensational.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it does seem like a very positive haunting.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not a spooky haunting from what I've
Speaker 1: seen and from what you've said. So have you have
Speaker 1: you considered or has it come up or I don't
Speaker 1: know if you can answer, I'm not sure, but having
Speaker 1: other paranormal shows go to the house, I.
Speaker 2: Am definitely open to the possibility. I know that one
Speaker 2: thing working against it for that is the fact that
Speaker 2: it's not a really scary haunting. Yes, multiple people have
Speaker 2: died in the house, but they all died of natural causes.
Speaker 2: There's no deep, dark, spooky history. It's just a charming haunting.
Speaker 2: It is really active though, like the music boxes play
Speaker 2: by themselves. You hear people walking up and down the halls,
Speaker 2: doors open and closed, the typewriter types, and on multiple occasions,
Speaker 2: like the order, the basement will rattle like somebody's on
Speaker 2: the other side of it. So kind of horror movie
Speaker 2: level stuff and yet also nothing threatening, just really physical.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because that's the thing these paranormal shows. They always
Speaker 1: wanted to be the scariest. Yeah, for the first time
Speaker 1: in television history. We're gonna see the devil walk. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what they want.
Speaker 2: Toddy Dimmon's an inspiration House. They are things that I
Speaker 2: brought there myself, with the things into the display room.
Speaker 1: Yeah. We actually last time you were here, we didn't
Speaker 1: talk about why the house is haunted. Can you tell
Speaker 1: the story of that.
Speaker 2: I wish I knew precisely why, But I think it's
Speaker 2: a combination of the land place, the age of the house,
Speaker 2: and possibly what it's constructed of. Something about inspiration House
Speaker 2: really holds onto energy and emotional impressions, and this is
Speaker 2: something that we find in a lot of classic hauntings
Speaker 2: every place, from Waverley Hills to trans Eleganty Lunatic Asylum
Speaker 2: to all the haunted prisons. Most of them are of
Speaker 2: a brick or stone construction. I mean that's not exclusive,
Speaker 2: but an awful lot of them are. And something about
Speaker 2: where they're at and the length of time that people
Speaker 2: either stayed there or had strong emotional experiences there, seems
Speaker 2: to wear its way into the fabric of the space.
Speaker 2: An Inspiration House is no different.
Speaker 1: Huh. Yeah, because I've heard is that sort of what
Speaker 1: like the stone Tape theory.
Speaker 2: Is it's related to it, and some of the stone
Speaker 2: tape theory comes down to whether or not the stones
Speaker 2: have a high courtz content. I've heard series about it
Speaker 2: being limestone or a high like ferros magnet like like
Speaker 2: a lot of iron influencing electromagnetic forces. Some of that
Speaker 2: gets into some dodgy pseudoscience, but there there is something
Speaker 2: interesting about the topography, the actual like geology of locations
Speaker 2: where haunts seem to occur, and I think it bears
Speaker 2: a little bit more research than maybe has been given
Speaker 2: to it over time.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, that's something that I feel like I don't
Speaker 1: I don't hear enough about, like you know, the relationship
Speaker 1: to the earth, water, you know, all these elements. I
Speaker 1: think sometimes people look over them and they get so
Speaker 1: caught up on tragic murders that happen in a location
Speaker 1: or just the deaths in general, and they don't think
Speaker 1: about all of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and something is definitely about is connected to the
Speaker 2: land there. Some of that might also be The house
Speaker 2: was built in eighteen sixty nine, finished in eighteen seventy,
Speaker 2: but there was another house on that property that predated
Speaker 2: it that does have a very historic connection to the
Speaker 2: Underground Railroad. Reverend James Fitch and his wife lived there.
Speaker 2: I believe his brother in law lived there as well,
Speaker 2: and they were connected to something called the Wellington Rescue,
Speaker 2: where James Fitch ended up in jail for over one
Speaker 2: hundred days. I think it might have been more than
Speaker 2: a year, protesting the recapture of a freedom seeker, John Price.
Speaker 2: And it was something that predated the Civil War but
Speaker 2: really kind of fanned the flames in a way that
Speaker 2: we would relate to sort of the George Floyd murder
Speaker 2: these days in terms of public outcry for how people
Speaker 2: are being treated. John Price was someone who was abducted
Speaker 2: on his way to work. They beat him, they threw
Speaker 2: him in a carriage. They drove him one town over
Speaker 2: where they knew they would be received a little bit
Speaker 2: more kindly as slave catchers from Kentucky and Oberlin, which
Speaker 2: is where Inspiration Houses had been an abolitionist town since
Speaker 2: its founding. And the brother in law of Reverend Fitch
Speaker 2: heard John Price crying for help, and there was like
Speaker 2: this daring carriage race to try to get to where
Speaker 2: they were keeping him in prison. A ton of folks
Speaker 2: from Overlood showed up they staged a protest, and while
Speaker 2: they were keeping everybody occupied in the front, somebody broke
Speaker 2: John Price out and the first place they hid him
Speaker 2: was the Fitch property where Inspiration House currently stands.
Speaker 1: Wow, so when you move into this player, when you
Speaker 1: know acquire this property, did you know this history or
Speaker 1: that it might be haunted.
Speaker 2: I did not know that history at all. The only
Speaker 2: reason I started to dig into the underground railroad connection
Speaker 2: was enough of my friends and like local investigators had
Speaker 2: gotten dps and things that started to steer them toward
Speaker 2: the underground railroad. And I was like, but the house
Speaker 2: was built after the Civil War, that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2: And then found that what it was built on was
Speaker 2: one of the few houses that they knew for sure
Speaker 2: had hidden passageways and booby traps to better hide people
Speaker 2: and to deter their capture. So the Fitches were not
Speaker 2: messing around for their whole conductor thing like they they
Speaker 2: were pretty into it.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. So during the pandemic, you know, I guess, really,
Speaker 1: since I've talked to you last, which wasn't even that
Speaker 1: long ago, has there been a lot of activity at
Speaker 1: the house.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I will say that when we were looking for
Speaker 2: a place to be kind of my location for in
Speaker 2: person classes. I'd been hoping for something that was haunted,
Speaker 2: and when we first walked into Inspiration House, there was
Speaker 2: definitely a feel to it, so I had a sense
Speaker 2: that there was going to be something going on there.
Speaker 2: I really didn't anticipate that I had hit the jackpot
Speaker 2: in terms of a friendly spirits and be really physically
Speaker 2: active ones with the pandemic. The one downside is I
Speaker 2: can't do classes and stuff in person anymore, but we
Speaker 2: do still let people go there and do self directed
Speaker 2: stays so they can stay for a weekend, stay for
Speaker 2: a week however long they want, and then just get
Speaker 2: to know the house. And there's been a lot of
Speaker 2: that going on and a lot of feedback from people
Speaker 2: where you know, over and over again, certain consistent activity
Speaker 2: is confirmed, including my favorite ghost on the property, a
Speaker 2: ghost dog.
Speaker 1: Oh oh, I like that. I mean there's something about
Speaker 1: ghost dogs that like slightly creeps me out, only because
Speaker 1: my I think that my legs must taste good or something,
Speaker 1: because dogs always lick my legs, and the thought of
Speaker 1: feeling a lick on my leg that I disembodied tongue
Speaker 1: on my leg would scare the shit on me. I mean,
Speaker 1: what does this dog do?
Speaker 2: People will hear him moving up and down the halls,
Speaker 2: so like the attack of like, you know, clad feet people. Yeah,
Speaker 2: people have heard him, especially in the king bedroom, trying
Speaker 2: to crawl up on the bed. Several people have felt
Speaker 2: him crawl up on the bed. And he's actually a
Speaker 2: full bodied apparition. People have mistaken him for an actual
Speaker 2: living dog looking out the windows. We have a neighbor.
Speaker 2: We can't convince that we don't have a dog. They
Speaker 2: all report the same general look of a dog, which
Speaker 2: actually fits interestingly an English setter. And because I am
Speaker 2: a researcher of an obsessive degree, I was able to
Speaker 2: find one of the families that moved in in the
Speaker 2: turn of the century, the early nineteen hundreds, they had
Speaker 2: a dog registered to the American Kennel Association. His name
Speaker 2: was Nick Gleam and he was an English Setter. Wow.
Speaker 1: Wow, who finds that out? I mean, that's pretty incredible.
Speaker 2: I was really lucky. I was poking around through Google books,
Speaker 2: just basically google whack their names to see where they
Speaker 2: came up. And since all of it was copyright free stuff,
Speaker 2: A circular from the American Kennels Association popped up with
Speaker 2: the name of one of the residents, and I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: this is interesting, and then I'm like, holy crap, it's
Speaker 2: the dog.
Speaker 1: Well, so when you said that there, if there were demons,
Speaker 1: it could have been because of something you brought in.
Speaker 1: I mean, do you why would you say that.
Speaker 2: I have what I referred to as my big box
Speaker 2: of demons. And it's not that there is like actually,
Speaker 2: you know, demon spirits locked in it. But when I
Speaker 2: was doing my book, The Dictionary of Demons for the
Speaker 2: first edition, there were several sigils that I needed better
Speaker 2: images of. So on the night of December thirty first,
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, moving to January first, twenty ten,
Speaker 2: I sat down with some modern parchment paper and a
Speaker 2: fountain pen and I recreated several of these and how
Speaker 2: there's maybe twenty twenty five of them, and I didn't
Speaker 2: want to throw them out, like I scanned them, sent
Speaker 2: them into the publisher. And so there's a big box
Speaker 2: of these like little hand drawn siguls that I just
Speaker 2: kind of keep around. They're not necessarily sigels for demons,
Speaker 2: especially in the magic of the Middle Ages and renaissance
Speaker 2: are less about While they are used in summoning, they
Speaker 2: are more used to control and protect yourself from the spirit,
Speaker 2: and so I usually will warn people if they go
Speaker 2: poking around the display row. If you open this box
Speaker 2: and you don't know what you're dealing with, this might
Speaker 2: be really disconcerting. And also these are harmless. Really, they're
Speaker 2: just art unless they are used in a much more
Speaker 2: elaborate ritual setup than we have on the property, or
Speaker 2: that most people even know how to do.
Speaker 1: Currently, I read the second edition of Ghost Hunter's Guide
Speaker 1: to the Occult, which I love, and I encourage people
Speaker 1: listening to this to go out and get it and
Speaker 1: the glossary alone. I mean, there's so much good stuff
Speaker 1: in here. And it made me think a lot about
Speaker 1: this kind of this idea of well your intentions with
Speaker 1: Like the first thing I was thinking was like a
Speaker 1: Oija board, for example, Everyone's favorite topic a Oija board.
Speaker 1: So if you're not looking for trouble, or you're not
Speaker 1: looking to open a door or talk to the two
Speaker 1: demons or something, how does it still happen been or
Speaker 1: does it still happen or what's going on with that?
Speaker 2: Well? I mean, obviously Ouiji boards are pretty controversial, although
Speaker 2: mostly that reputation was earned through the movie The Exorcist.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of pop culture baggage that comes with this.
Speaker 2: In the late eighteen hundreds early early twentieth century, Wiji
Speaker 2: boards were a parlor game, like literally a way of
Speaker 2: just sitting around. Sometimes it was an excuse for a
Speaker 2: lady and her gentleman friend to bend very closely over
Speaker 2: a table in close quarters and flirt with one another,
Speaker 2: and sort of the way that I think in the
Speaker 2: seventies and the eighties you would take your girlfriend to
Speaker 2: or your friend of choice to a scary movie and
Speaker 2: hope that everybody would be so upset that you would
Speaker 2: have to wrapprehand around them and like pull them in
Speaker 2: tight to comfort them.
Speaker 1: Class So orig that flix and chill.
Speaker 2: It really was. But what we see with Wiji boards
Speaker 2: in their pop culture presentation really gives them a reputation
Speaker 2: that they don't deserve. There any other method of spirit communication.
Speaker 2: You will see people on ghost shows using everything from
Speaker 2: a K two meter to a novelist to a spirit box,
Speaker 2: and every one of these is using in theory a
Speaker 2: spirit stability to affect something physical to then give the
Speaker 2: living audience a physical palpable communication. Wijia boards no different.
Speaker 2: The real trouble with the Ouiji board is what it
Speaker 2: probably operates on in most cases, and I would see,
Speaker 2: like probably ninety five percent of the time something called
Speaker 2: idio motor response. So you're sitting there with this board
Speaker 2: and you have a planch that's the little pointer, and
Speaker 2: everybody puts a couple of fingers on that, or if
Speaker 2: you're doing it solo, you put your fingers on it,
Speaker 2: and you're holding your hands over that very carefully, expecting
Speaker 2: or dreading it to move at some point. Well, our
Speaker 2: bodies do micro motions, like there's a small amount of
Speaker 2: movement that we're doing unconsciously, whether we mean to or not,
Speaker 2: and with the expectation that this is an object that
Speaker 2: will move in response to communications. It's very easy for
Speaker 2: us to set up the expectation and to unconsciously cause
Speaker 2: it to move, not even when somebody's trying to fake it,
Speaker 2: but without meaning to. Often the movement is caused by
Speaker 2: the people who are sitting on the board, which is
Speaker 2: also why it's so frequently likely to tell you the
Speaker 2: things that you are expecting to hear, or the things
Speaker 2: you hear you fear most.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, it's no fun if you're at a slump
Speaker 1: party and the wija boards just like, Hi, you look
Speaker 1: pretty like now people they wanted to say something terrifying.
Speaker 2: I have a slumber party memory with a Ouiji board
Speaker 2: where and I can only imagine I know the friends
Speaker 2: that I was with so where we had a long
Speaker 2: dissertation about which of our teachers were virgins.
Speaker 1: So, but what I'm wondering is similar to what I
Speaker 1: was just thinking with a wija board. If you have
Speaker 1: these symbols in your home that like, for example, I
Speaker 1: see a lot of Baphomet merch these days, and I
Speaker 1: think some people might think that that draws demons towards you,
Speaker 1: or you know, having these items a pentagram upside down
Speaker 1: or you know, these things can can that happen? Are they?
Speaker 1: Are they? You know? Signals for dark energies?
Speaker 2: Not really. A symbol has exactly as much power and
Speaker 2: meaning as the person who's using it gives to it.
Speaker 2: So if you've acquired this because you want to put
Speaker 2: it on your altar, and you are using it as
Speaker 2: a focal point for the spirit of bafume or anything,
Speaker 2: then it will have more ability to connect to that,
Speaker 2: But most of that ability is coming from you, the person,
Speaker 2: than the object. And I've seen that again and again.
Speaker 2: It's important to keep in mind that some symbols that
Speaker 2: we as a culture will look at and find incredibly terrifying.
Speaker 2: A five pointed star, even an upside down five pointed star,
Speaker 2: has been sort of promoted as a Satanic symbol. But
Speaker 2: if you go back one hundred years, one hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty years, you may find a five pointed start, even
Speaker 2: upside down as an architectural device, even in certain churches,
Speaker 2: even as hex symbols on barns in Pennsylvania. It's an
Speaker 2: old symbol and it's had many uses, and in order
Speaker 2: to understand what it's supposed to do, you have to
Speaker 2: understand the context. So that alone tells us that it's
Speaker 2: not the symbol itself. It's the intention. It's the use
Speaker 2: that is being put to, and it's the people who
Speaker 2: are making use of it. So if you just buy
Speaker 2: it because it looks cool and you want to like
Speaker 2: class up your Halloween sort of atmosphere, you are not
Speaker 2: going to have a house full of terrifying things unless
Speaker 2: you really want it. Ah.
Speaker 1: Okay, now, but what about the fact that I constantly
Speaker 1: am the opposite, like stay away, stay away, stay away?
Speaker 1: Does does that work that way? Does it really keep
Speaker 1: them away?
Speaker 2: Most spirits are polite and will listen to boundaries when
Speaker 2: you set them. There are obviously exceptions to the rule,
Speaker 2: in the same way that there's exceptions of the rule
Speaker 2: with people. Most people, if you say, hey, don't touch me,
Speaker 2: they will in fact respect that. And then there are
Speaker 2: a few people who are just awful. And the same
Speaker 2: goes for the spirit world. There are some things that
Speaker 2: are awful, but they're really not as widespread as so
Speaker 2: many of the shows and movies make them out to be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm always talking about ghosts touching people and
Speaker 1: not asking for consent and just they just if they
Speaker 1: want to touch you. They seems like they just go
Speaker 1: ahead and touch you. But if I tell that, if
Speaker 1: I walk into a haunted space and say, don't touch me,
Speaker 1: do you think that that will work? Typically I do
Speaker 1: that all the time.
Speaker 2: It's the one thing that crosses the line for me,
Speaker 2: and I do not like to be touched unless I
Speaker 2: have invited the touch. And that goes for a living people,
Speaker 2: dead people in between. So yeah, I make a point
Speaker 2: of saying, like I basically of setting the rules of engagement.
Speaker 2: What boundaries of interaction am I willing to tolerate. I
Speaker 2: don't have a problem with things communicating in images and words,
Speaker 2: you know, passing emotions along so I can feel them,
Speaker 2: but you know, don't grab me.
Speaker 1: Have you been grabbed by an unseen force?
Speaker 2: A couple of times when I was younger, I had
Speaker 2: something I could push me down on the bed in
Speaker 2: a way that I really did not like at a
Speaker 2: hotel in Wisconsin, Milwaukee that was I would have written
Speaker 2: it off as a night terror, except the same thing
Speaker 2: happened to my buddy who was sleeping in the room
Speaker 2: as well. And when we compare notes, we had had
Speaker 2: identical experiences.
Speaker 1: Like it pushed you like you were standing and it
Speaker 1: pushed you down or.
Speaker 2: Held me down. I was, I was already down on
Speaker 2: the bed, and there was it was that classic like
Speaker 2: hag attack of something like looming over you and pressing
Speaker 2: you into the bed and not being able to get up.
Speaker 2: And like I said, I pretty logically was like, well,
Speaker 2: this is this is just a you know, sleep paralysis.
Speaker 2: But my buddy was acting kind of cagey as well.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, hey, are you sleeping okay in this room?
Speaker 2: Then he's like, nope, tell me what you experienced. And
Speaker 2: you know we're up there for gen con so or
Speaker 2: not gen coin was it? Was it origins Gaming Convention?
Speaker 2: Big geek thing?
Speaker 1: Okay? Yeah. I've always felt that sleep paralysis gets real
Speaker 1: uh freaky seeky when more than one person experiences it,
Speaker 1: or you know, if anytime someone sleeps in that room
Speaker 1: they experience And that's when I'm like, I don't know
Speaker 1: if this is just a sleep paralysis occurrence.
Speaker 2: That's usually my measuring stick for whether or not it's
Speaker 2: not straight up sleep paralysis if multiple people are experiencing it,
Speaker 2: or if when someone is experiencing sleep paralysis, someone else
Speaker 2: in the room or the house is also perceiving something,
Speaker 2: or if pets are responding to a presence, that makes
Speaker 2: me want to dig a little deeper into what's going on.
Speaker 1: What do you know about the sleeping on your face
Speaker 1: as opposed to your back or you sleep on your
Speaker 1: stomach as opposed to your back with sleep paralysis because
Speaker 1: I'm always sleeping on my stomach because I've heard that
Speaker 1: it doesn't happen if you as much. If you do.
Speaker 1: That Is that true?
Speaker 2: Ncdotally, if you sleep on your back, you are more
Speaker 2: prone to it. But I I don't know what the
Speaker 2: statistics are for that, whether or not it's been like
Speaker 2: one hundred percent scientifically proven. I will say for myself,
Speaker 2: I do a lot of dreamwork and a lot of
Speaker 2: visionary stuff while I'm sleeping. If I want to contain
Speaker 2: like a sort of hypnogogic consciousness like that in between
Speaker 2: state between sleeping and waking, doing it while on my
Speaker 2: back is better. I'm more likely to just fall asleep
Speaker 2: if I roll over on my side.
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the occult some more, because now
Speaker 1: I'm like, I've got so much on my mind from
Speaker 1: reading your book, and uh, you know a lot about
Speaker 1: this stuff. I don't know how a human can have
Speaker 1: so much knowledge. You are you blow my mind. But
Speaker 1: I guess that's a simple question. What what is the occult?
Speaker 2: It really means secret, hidden. I think it the same
Speaker 2: root word as occluded. I know a lot of people
Speaker 2: these days will see occult and all they hear is
Speaker 2: cult and think that it means, you know, dark satanic evil,
Speaker 2: and that's really misleading. Anything that delves into the hidden
Speaker 2: or mysterious side of our experiences, and the world is
Speaker 2: technically occult. So the paranormal thirty forty fifty years ago
Speaker 2: certainly would have still be seen as the occult. We've
Speaker 2: just kind of rebranded it these days. I would say
Speaker 2: that most people who use the term occult or occultist
Speaker 2: as a personal identifier are folks who are proving for me,
Speaker 2: folks who are probing a little more deeply than simply
Speaker 2: ghost where there's a little bit more practice of magic,
Speaker 2: a little bit more ritual research, delving into some of
Speaker 2: the more forbidden aspects, or at least things perceived to
Speaker 2: be forbidden, the study not only of human spirits, but
Speaker 2: of non human entities, even demons.
Speaker 1: Well that's the part that I can't help. But I'm
Speaker 1: drawn to the spooky shaitan me too. So what is
Speaker 1: the benefit of a ghost hunter knowing about the occult?
Speaker 2: First and foremost, if you are educated in the occult,
Speaker 2: you are better able to assess what might actually have
Speaker 2: happened in a location, confirm or rule out claims that
Speaker 2: there were rituals or some sort of like Satanic sacrifice,
Speaker 2: because you are able to recognize accurate symbols accurate relics
Speaker 2: of ritual activity as opposed to, know, some fifteen year
Speaker 2: old who was listening to too much Ozzy Osbourne and
Speaker 2: just decided to slap a bunch of weird things on
Speaker 2: the wall and feel really spooky, which you know, not
Speaker 2: to knock that, Like there's some fun in that, but
Speaker 2: it easily gets mistaken for much more formal and effective
Speaker 2: ritual work. In addition to that, there are a lot
Speaker 2: of techniques in occult practices for dealing with spirits, not
Speaker 2: only experiencing them, but finding ways to protect yourself against them,
Speaker 2: to protect a space against them, to drive things out,
Speaker 2: to recognize what's good, what's bad, what's in between, and
Speaker 2: you don't want to, you know, get on its bad side,
Speaker 2: but it'll be fine if you leave it alone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the the protection part again constantly like I'll try
Speaker 1: anything like what crystal do I need to buy? Like
Speaker 1: I'm constantly and it always goes back to the fact
Speaker 1: that I'm talking about demons all the time and joking
Speaker 1: and and I just just don't want them to show
Speaker 1: up one day and say, hey, we heard you're running
Speaker 1: your mouth. So I definitely am fascinated and curious. The
Speaker 1: part that I will constantly keep going back to in
Speaker 1: this book is the parts about protection, which uh so
Speaker 1: again with the intent and and that sort of conversation
Speaker 1: seems to be pretty a pretty big common thread throughout
Speaker 1: a lot of this is, you know, is saying a
Speaker 1: prayer or lighting your or your palo santo? Is that
Speaker 1: enough for or do you need to believe it? Can
Speaker 1: someone just do that stuff because they read it in
Speaker 1: a book and they're good to go, or is there
Speaker 1: another step to it?
Speaker 2: With the belief, it definitely helps for it to be
Speaker 2: meaningful to you to just grab a bundle of sage
Speaker 2: and try to act out what you think is a
Speaker 2: Native American ceremony without context or background, you are not
Speaker 2: going to have the same result. Which also means if
Speaker 2: smoke cleansing is something that resonates with you, you don't
Speaker 2: have to strictly settle for sage. There's a whole history
Speaker 2: of different types of incense and things that you could use,
Speaker 2: and I always recommend to people to experiment with what
Speaker 2: feels like it resonates for them. You know, does polo
Speaker 2: santo seem like it is something that clears things for
Speaker 2: you better? Are you more of a lavender and rosemary.
Speaker 2: Person I personally like benzoin and sandalwood and frankincense. Actually
Speaker 2: not all at once. It's either frankincense or benzouin with
Speaker 2: a little sandalwood. The idea, especially in terms of smoke cleansing,
Speaker 2: is that the smoke itself is sort of like the
Speaker 2: closest physical thing to the energy of the spirit world,
Speaker 2: and so you're sort of vibing with that to kind
Speaker 2: of crisscross between your realm and their roalm to get
Speaker 2: this stuff to cleanse. Now, I think it's also important
Speaker 2: to note that several of the things traditionally used for cleansing,
Speaker 2: especially with smoke cleansing, also have antiseptic, antibacterial, and antiviral properties.
Speaker 2: So there's a very real likelihood that some of those
Speaker 2: traditions were handed down to us by our ancestors because
Speaker 2: they literally helped to clean a space.
Speaker 1: Well, what I've also heard in more recent times that
Speaker 1: say to really had her moment, and now there's been
Speaker 1: lots of problems with over harvesting and just lots of
Speaker 1: shadiness going on with that. So I think it is
Speaker 1: good for people to explore other options besides just sage. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's kind of the most popular, most commonly
Speaker 1: known one. But yeah, I like to hear about the
Speaker 1: other stuff too well. So let's say you don't have
Speaker 1: access to this stuff, or you don't have any prayers
Speaker 1: of protection committed to memory. So so then what.
Speaker 2: So salt Supernatural got a few things right? Or I
Speaker 2: should say that the folks who are writing Supernatural clearly
Speaker 2: read a few books. Salt has been used for cleansing
Speaker 2: for a long time. It's very popular among a lot
Speaker 2: of witches. Wigan practice. You don't necessarily need to use
Speaker 2: like an entire higher you know, box of morton salt
Speaker 2: and roll it across the threshold and all of the windows.
Speaker 2: It's more seen as a sink for negative energy. So
Speaker 2: in the eighties, I remember raiki practitioners having like a
Speaker 2: little ball, a little bowl of salt, or a big
Speaker 2: salt crystal, one of those pink Bibetan lamps, the supposedly
Speaker 2: humalayan rock salt.
Speaker 1: Oh, I have one just because I heard it could
Speaker 1: it might help.
Speaker 2: They when they were clearing some people's energy, or when
Speaker 2: they felt that they were clearing out negativity. They would
Speaker 2: then focus it and literally like place it into the salt,
Speaker 2: almost like the recycling bind as a way to sort
Speaker 2: of imagine sending that back to the Earth or whatever
Speaker 2: forces then can take it and clear it and cycle
Speaker 2: the negative out of it without destroying the energy itself.
Speaker 2: A really quick and easy technique that builds on that
Speaker 2: that I recommended to people. And this is something you
Speaker 2: can do because you have it in your house. If
Speaker 2: you feel overwhelmed by something or there's there's something you
Speaker 2: want to let go of, get a little bit of salt,
Speaker 2: put it in your hand, close your hand around it,
Speaker 2: think about what you're trying to let go of, and
Speaker 2: then just wash it off your hand, down the sink,
Speaker 2: let it go.
Speaker 1: Hmm, okay.
Speaker 2: Ninety nine percent of magic is also psychology. It helps
Speaker 2: you focus your intention. It gives you a meaningful symbol
Speaker 2: to kind of hang onto. So you have a tangible thing.
Speaker 2: So salt, smoke from various things. If you're asthmatic or
Speaker 2: allergic to smoke, don't worry about it. You don't have
Speaker 2: to use sage. Water is also another thing that has
Speaker 2: a long standing history as a cleansing agent. We see
Speaker 2: that with like the power of Christ compels you, you know,
Speaker 2: throwing the Holy water all over the room. But the
Speaker 2: Catholics aren't the only ones who have in a corner
Speaker 2: of the market on the idea of holy water as
Speaker 2: something that clears and cleanses and blesses is something you
Speaker 2: can find in multiple religious systems as well as well
Speaker 2: as folk traditions. And again we've all got that. Just
Speaker 2: nip into the bathroom you want to clear something off,
Speaker 2: put on the tap, put your hands under it, and
Speaker 2: just let whatever you need to let go of flow
Speaker 2: down the drain and also let that sensation of the
Speaker 2: cool water on your wrists and your hands help you
Speaker 2: focus on what you want to let go of. It
Speaker 2: also help you bring yourself back to your body, being grounded,
Speaker 2: being centered, reminding yourself that you are in your body
Speaker 2: in this moment and you are in control is probably
Speaker 2: the most powerful tool you have for protecting yourself.
Speaker 1: There's also the ball of white light. That's something that
Speaker 1: I hear about a lot.
Speaker 2: Yes, that is really called shielding, and it is again
Speaker 2: another technique where you're using a focus to remind yourself
Speaker 2: that you have boundaries, that you have barriers, that you
Speaker 2: can be protected. You can do this through your own
Speaker 2: will power where it doesn't have to be a ball
Speaker 2: of white light. It can be any kind of shield
Speaker 2: or protective thing. There. There's a really really ancient prayer
Speaker 2: that was adopted into Judaism and Christianity. I don't know
Speaker 2: if it has a cognate in Islam, and I apologize
Speaker 2: for that lack, but it goes back to Summer and Babylon,
Speaker 2: where you've got Michael on my right and Gabriel on
Speaker 2: my left, and basically you space out the four corners
Speaker 2: with different entities that you find protective. In Sumer and Babylon,
Speaker 2: it was Shamish and Inky and a couple of other
Speaker 2: gods that were associated with protection from from demail and
Speaker 2: evil spirits. But you think about being protected at your
Speaker 2: right and on your left, before you and behind you,
Speaker 2: above you, and below you, and going through those steps.
Speaker 2: Protection on my right hand, protection on my left hand,
Speaker 2: protection in front of me, protection behind me, protection above me,
Speaker 2: protection beneath me. Helps to orient you focus. You remind
Speaker 2: yourself that you have boundaries, that there is a step
Speaker 2: between you and the rest of the world, whether you
Speaker 2: see that as something that you're holding in your mind
Speaker 2: as a conceptual barrier of white light or whatever, or
Speaker 2: as something that you are asking for outside of yourself,
Speaker 2: a higher power to also facilitate in setting up those boundaries.
Speaker 1: So is it too unfocused if somebody maybe like me,
Speaker 1: it does a little bit of everything.
Speaker 2: I don't think that that's too unfocused. I think that
Speaker 2: there's a lot of power in trying things out and
Speaker 2: seeing what works for you. Right, and really like this
Speaker 2: Morgesborg technique is fine.
Speaker 1: That's definitely what's going on over here. So when we're
Speaker 1: talking about like protecting ourselves from energies, this applies to
Speaker 1: both humans and you know, other worldly forces, right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So can we talk about psychic vamporism, which I know
Speaker 1: is a topic you know a lot about. I've never
Speaker 1: talked about this with anybody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, So what is it? Psychic vamporism is the
Speaker 2: ability some people have to take energy, vitality, spirit from
Speaker 2: other people. Most of the time we're present with the
Speaker 2: idea of a psychic vampire as a negative person. So
Speaker 2: think of there are two broad topics for this, and
Speaker 2: I will call them Old Aunt Edna and that ass
Speaker 2: while at work, because we've all encountered these where you've
Speaker 2: got like this elderly relative who maybe she doesn't get
Speaker 2: out so much anymore, and she doesn't have a whole
Speaker 2: lot of like social stimulation. And when you come over
Speaker 2: to visit, you will hear about every possible bad thing
Speaker 2: that has gone on in her life, all of the drama,
Speaker 2: from her bunions to her hemorrhoids, to the fact that
Speaker 2: like her dog vomited on her sneakers that day, and
Speaker 2: like she just you can feel her without meaning to,
Speaker 2: just literally sucking the life and the very will to
Speaker 2: live out of you. And by the time you're done,
Speaker 2: you kind of drag us out and you're just like, oh,
Speaker 2: but why do I do this to myself? And she's
Speaker 2: very chipper now that she's you know, basically sucked you
Speaker 2: dry of your attention and your emotions and has almost
Speaker 2: certainly not the first clue that there was anything other
Speaker 2: than a conversation in that that she was what some
Speaker 2: people might call a vampire.
Speaker 1: Okay, the other.
Speaker 2: Person also may not be conscious of it. They might
Speaker 2: also be to some extent aware that they're preying on people.
Speaker 2: And this is the person who's a little bit more
Speaker 2: aggressive about it. They still find a way to push buttons.
Speaker 2: They will usually get up in your personal space. They
Speaker 2: will find ways to incite strong emotional reactions, usually through confrontation,
Speaker 2: but sometimes just in guilt or shame, and they will
Speaker 2: incite this. They will find ways to create charged emotional
Speaker 2: interactions with people, and they clearly get something out of it.
Speaker 2: They are motivated by this need to pray off people
Speaker 2: to feel more powerful than them. They may also be
Speaker 2: a hybrid of aunt edna, and we see that in
Speaker 2: what we do in the Shadows with Colin, who is
Speaker 2: not necessarily aggressive all the time, but certainly just sucks
Speaker 2: the life out of people by not letting them go
Speaker 2: just constantly, is like, you know, just sipping off of
Speaker 2: their attention and their focus. So there's some psychological things
Speaker 2: that can be going on with that. But if you
Speaker 2: believe that there is such a thing as energy or
Speaker 2: life force, that like reiki practitioners and shegoing specialists to
Speaker 2: work with every conversation we have, every interaction with another
Speaker 2: human being, there's some exchange that happens, and it's usually
Speaker 2: an equal exchange. Theater people are probably the most keenly
Speaker 2: aware of how this works. It Usually they don't frame
Speaker 2: it in terms of psychicism or metaphysics. It's simply how
Speaker 2: theater works. Where if you're up there on the stage
Speaker 2: and the audience is not engaged, all of the energy
Speaker 2: you put into your performance just sort of falls flat
Speaker 2: and you end up exhausted by the end of it.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, right, right, you know how that goes? Like,
Speaker 2: there's there's this feel but you can feel when you're
Speaker 2: up on stage, when it's clicking, when everything that you're
Speaker 2: putting out is actually getting put back to you and
Speaker 2: then some and so it turns into this this reciprocal cycle.
Speaker 2: There is a give and take between you and the
Speaker 2: audience where everybody goes home feeling better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, stand up comedy is that. I mean, I've done
Speaker 1: a lot of stand up, I've done a lot of theater,
Speaker 1: and and I've noticed that, like with stand up, if
Speaker 1: it's not going well, you have to figure out how
Speaker 1: to make it go well. Like with theater, if it's
Speaker 1: not going well, you have to keep doing the thing.
Speaker 1: Any stand up it's like, oh no, the energy is off.
Speaker 1: How do I get this energy back? And that is
Speaker 1: it can be very exhausting.
Speaker 2: My favorite performer who is aware that this is a
Speaker 2: psychic effect as well as just how theater works, Dolly Parton. Oh,
Speaker 2: there is an interview. There is an interview where she
Speaker 2: straight up says I'm a psychic vampire.
Speaker 1: Wow what that is, and.
Speaker 2: Explains how that works and how she uses it as
Speaker 2: a performer. So the aunt Edna and the asphalt Works
Speaker 2: representations that I gave, those are folks who don't necessarily
Speaker 2: know what they're doing. Some people need more energy than others.
Speaker 2: Sort of makes sense, like some people are like really
Speaker 2: really high energy, some people less so, and some of
Speaker 2: those people have an invulnerability to take it from others
Speaker 2: if they need it. And a conscious psychic vampire is
Speaker 2: someone he's just figured out how that works and can
Speaker 2: do it consciously and within the community, there are people
Speaker 2: who realize that this is a capacity that they have.
Speaker 2: It's part of their psychic ability, part of like their
Speaker 2: particular relationship with energy, and they simply choose to do
Speaker 2: it in ways that are not destructive. See also Dolly Parton,
Speaker 2: who makes use of enormous crowds to get this cycle
Speaker 2: going in order to sustain what she needs, or or
Speaker 2: someone like me where I will do exchanges with someone
Speaker 2: who is trained in energy work, has enough to spare
Speaker 2: and is consensual in this exchange.
Speaker 1: So in theory, if a human is a psychic vampire
Speaker 1: and they die and now they're a ghost. Does the
Speaker 1: ghost is the ghost you know, still a psychic vampire.
Speaker 1: Someone suck the life out of you.
Speaker 2: Some of the some works about psycho vamporism and astro
Speaker 2: vamporism absolutely say yes. Now. I also think all spirits
Speaker 2: are vampiric to some degree or another. Every ghost hunter
Speaker 2: has experienced the fairly widespread battery drain, but more than that,
Speaker 2: the sense of going into a space and feeling really exhausted,
Speaker 2: like really oppressed on some level when it is a
Speaker 2: very active haunting. There's a point right before something physical
Speaker 2: happens in haunted places that everybody can feel a shift
Speaker 2: in the energy. A lot of people will parse it
Speaker 2: a little bit like a barometric pressure shift, but many
Speaker 2: others will feel like something's been taken out of the
Speaker 2: space in order to fuel this effect. Personally, I believe
Speaker 2: that all spirits being energy need to support what they
Speaker 2: do and how they exist, and they need to eat
Speaker 2: and then it can no longer go down to the
Speaker 2: McDonald's and have a hamburger, so they need to take energy.
Speaker 2: And I also think that living psychic vampires are folks
Speaker 2: I actually, I know for a fact that all the
Speaker 2: living psychic vampires that I know who are at least
Speaker 2: conscious about it are also fairly powerful energy workers in psychics.
Speaker 2: They're fueling something and they need fuel more than what
Speaker 2: they can eat with just you know, regular flesh and blood.
Speaker 1: Wow, well thanks for that. I didn't you know. It's
Speaker 1: never come up, so thank you. I think it's a
Speaker 1: good thing to know about.
Speaker 3: Handy handed Any tip if you think that you have
Speaker 3: if you think that you are being victimized by psychic vampire,
Speaker 3: first thing, move out of whatever.
Speaker 2: Room you're in. If you're interacting with people, the highest
Speaker 2: likelihood is it's someone that you just interacted with in
Speaker 2: the past fifteen minutes. It's probablyably someone who either made
Speaker 2: physical contact or eye contact with you. It's probably somebody
Speaker 2: who talked to you. They may not be aware that
Speaker 2: they are taking your energy and that they're feeding off
Speaker 2: of you, which makes it kind of awkward to ask
Speaker 2: them to stop. So if you move yourself out of
Speaker 2: their sphere of control, out of their space, you're likely
Speaker 2: to break their contact, their focus on you, and then
Speaker 2: just step into a bathroom or somewhere where you can
Speaker 2: control the space. Take a few moments to collect yourself,
Speaker 2: kind of check in to make sure that what you're
Speaker 2: feeling isn't just you know, a panic attack or you know,
Speaker 2: asi reflux or something worse that's just purely physical. And
Speaker 2: if you're still one hundred percent sure this is an
Speaker 2: energetic thing, go through that step that I suggested with
Speaker 2: turn on the taps on the water, put your hands
Speaker 2: under the water, feel the water going over your wrists
Speaker 2: and your hands. Bring yourself back into your body. Remind
Speaker 2: yourself that you do have boundaries, and assert those boundaries
Speaker 2: through whatever method of shielding works for you, whether that
Speaker 2: is the ball of white light or actually calling on
Speaker 2: a higher power. But make sure that by the end
Speaker 2: of it you have a strong sense of where you
Speaker 2: begin and the rest of the world ends. And also
Speaker 2: that you have both the right and that you are sorry,
Speaker 2: and also that you are carrying your protections, that you
Speaker 2: have a right to be protected, that you are not
Speaker 2: a victim.
Speaker 1: So how is this different than obsessing spirits?
Speaker 2: I don't find too much of a difference. Some of
Speaker 2: it depends on the ultimate influence and intent of the spirit.
Speaker 2: Obsessing spirits that are trying to obsess or oppress a
Speaker 2: person will kind of connect to that person. Think of
Speaker 2: them like psychic lampreys or leeches. They make a can
Speaker 2: to the person, and sometimes they're content to just slurp
Speaker 2: off a little of your energy and your vitality.
Speaker 1: Yeah, blurp off a little.
Speaker 2: Some of them need a little bit more of an
Speaker 2: emotional engagement. Again, think about those psychic vampire examples, where
Speaker 2: strong emotional reactions get more out of the engagement. So
Speaker 2: some obsessing entities prefer terror, prefer your pain, prefer your depression,
Speaker 2: and they will find ways to incite those reactions. They
Speaker 2: will exude them until you mistake those emotions for your
Speaker 2: own and feedback into whatever cycle they prefer. In my opinion,
Speaker 2: some of the most devastating psychic attacks and spiritual attacks
Speaker 2: are things randomly scratching you or or pushing you. It's
Speaker 2: something that puts out a miasma of negative emotion that's
Speaker 2: so subtle you don't realize it's not yours. Before you
Speaker 2: know it, you're just sort of soaked in achy horrible negativity,
Speaker 2: whether it's depression or stuff that verges on suicidal ideation,
Speaker 2: or anger and rage and fury, and you're so saturated
Speaker 2: you no longer stop to ask why do I feel
Speaker 2: like this? Is this me? You just act on it.
Speaker 1: Now. Is this different than possession?
Speaker 2: Yes, there are sort of stages that lead up to possession.
Speaker 2: That can be a stage that leads to full possession,
Speaker 2: and not everything is trying to possess people. Some spirits
Speaker 2: really are motive to want to crawl around in a
Speaker 2: person's skin. I think of them a little bit, at
Speaker 2: least some of them, like teenagers that want a joy
Speaker 2: ride in a car. They don't really care so much
Speaker 2: about the body, at least not in the long term.
Speaker 2: They want something out of being able to be in
Speaker 2: a physical body, whether it's pleasure, whether it's causing violence,
Speaker 2: whether it's just the thrill of it. So it usually
Speaker 2: goes oppression, obsession, possession where something is sort of think
Speaker 2: of it in terms of orbit. Something is orbiting near
Speaker 2: you and starting to have an influence on how you feel.
Speaker 2: Something has attached to the outside of you and is
Speaker 2: having a more significant impact on how you think, how
Speaker 2: you feel, how you react. And then something finds a
Speaker 2: way inside of you, has warned you down to a
Speaker 2: point where where it can steer some of your movements,
Speaker 2: make you say things make you do things. Maybe you're
Speaker 2: conscious while this is happening, and maybe it's full possession
Speaker 2: where the person who was born into that body is
Speaker 2: shoved in a corner and may have no recollection of
Speaker 2: the possessory state. Now that sounds terrifying, and I think
Speaker 2: it's important to mention that there are a number of
Speaker 2: religious and spiritual traditions where that is a desired state
Speaker 2: under certain circumstances. Voodoo is probably the best example where
Speaker 2: transpossessory states are a part of worship and spirit interaction.
Speaker 2: But there are very very clear circumstances under which that
Speaker 2: is engaged with. There's structure, there's protections in place so
Speaker 2: that you know broadly what's going to take you over
Speaker 2: and how, and there are people there to basically act
Speaker 2: as your spotters.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Michelle Belanja. And if you
Speaker 1: want to hear just a little bit more, gootopatreon dot com,
Speaker 1: slash roz dress Las in my second tier you can
Speaker 1: hear what Michelle has to say about human spirits possessing
Speaker 1: living humans. Also, go get you some ghosted merch in
Speaker 1: the description of this episode, and a ticket to the
Speaker 1: live show, which will be happening on the thirtieth in
Speaker 1: silver like Los Angeles, California. You can find that link
Speaker 1: in this description of this episode. And I should also
Speaker 1: tell you that Michelle will be back next week and
Speaker 1: we get into religions and we you know, we're talking
Speaker 1: more occult stuff and it's fantastic. So make sure you're subscribed.
Speaker 1: Tell your friends about the show right at five stars
Speaker 1: if you like it. If you don't like it, why
Speaker 1: are you listening? If you have a ghost or you
Speaker 1: could leave it in a five star review, you could
Speaker 1: put it in our Facebook group called Ghosted by Roz
Speaker 1: dress Fales. I want to do a listener episode again soon,
Speaker 1: so send those on over to Ghosted by Roz at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com with the subject line listener episode. You
Speaker 1: can find me on Instagram at Roz Hernandez. I'm on
Speaker 1: cameo Roz dress fALS. Wow, I have a lot to
Speaker 1: say about myself. I love you all, both living and dead.
Speaker 1: But if I didn't ask you to haunt me, don't
Speaker 1: haunt me. Came Back Star a podcast network