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Speaker 1: of things, we simply don't know the answer too. Bye there,
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm your ghost
Speaker 1: this week, joined as always by Steve and and what's
Speaker 1: your name? I'm Joe? Sorry did I not say my name?
Speaker 1: I'm Joe. Sorry. Okay, what are we gonna talk about
Speaker 1: this week? Did we have any script for this week?
Speaker 1: I don't know you were the Boss of the Man. Okay,
Speaker 1: well here I got one. Here. This is from the
Speaker 1: bottom of my suitcase. Uh. This is the death of
Speaker 1: de la Plaza. And that's spelled just so you know.
Speaker 1: It's h u g u e s. That's French French words.
Speaker 1: It's our French names pronounced uh de la Plaza uh
Speaker 1: and uh. He was killed in San Francisco in June
Speaker 1: two thousand seven, so almost San Francisco. Yeah, he died.
Speaker 1: I guess I should say he died first of all,
Speaker 1: before we go to further on, to give a shout
Speaker 1: out to our listener, Andrew, who suggested this mystery and
Speaker 1: who probably is a killer also but tried just trying
Speaker 1: to keep it along. I think I think so, Andrew,
Speaker 1: you're not pooling us, but thanks anyway, And hopefully he
Speaker 1: didn't kill him just for just to create a mystery
Speaker 1: for us. But this is before we started recording, so
Speaker 1: we're saying, yeah, I think it's one of the reasons
Speaker 1: we have that five year rule. Yeah, exactly. Uh, so
Speaker 1: so quick, very quick, biographical stuff on Uga Plaza. He
Speaker 1: was French, but he had dual French American citizenship. His
Speaker 1: parents still live in France. As far as I know,
Speaker 1: they're still alive today. And by the way, they would
Speaker 1: still like to know exactly what happened, because he did
Speaker 1: have a strange, mysterious death and there were some really
Speaker 1: big unanswered questions. Last I heard, they put up a
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollar reward for any information regarding us demise,
Speaker 1: and as far as I know, the reward is still
Speaker 1: around you guys, Have you guys heard anything one way,
Speaker 1: anything to the contrary. But I hadn't really trapped down
Speaker 1: the reward part. Back to back to he had lived
Speaker 1: in the US. I believed he lived in New York
Speaker 1: for a little while and then moved to San Francisco.
Speaker 1: He had been in SF for about four years and
Speaker 1: then uh, in two thousand seven, at age thirty six. Well,
Speaker 1: he died. And that's what we're going to talk about,
Speaker 1: is why did he die? What else did he do?
Speaker 1: He worked while he was there at a company called
Speaker 1: Lee Prague, which is an educational toy and oh yeah,
Speaker 1: they're around then. They're still cracking out those devices to
Speaker 1: educate your kids and all that stuff. So they're they're
Speaker 1: big actually. Uh and he was, I guess a sound engineer. Ye. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so it sounds like a good job. One of
Speaker 1: those hype in Bay Area jobs would be one of
Speaker 1: the one per center. Was that in that was during
Speaker 1: the Was that during the tech bubble? Uh? No, the
Speaker 1: tech bubble was a little earlier. That was late nineties. Okay,
Speaker 1: you're right, right. I just every time I think of
Speaker 1: that kind of general area, like it was it in
Speaker 1: the bubble or not? But it was still a good
Speaker 1: paying job. You know, it might turn out that is
Speaker 1: it is in the bubble, just the second bubble. We'll
Speaker 1: find It's possible. It's entirely possible. It's the world. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well this bubbles all around us. Uh. But anyway, back
Speaker 1: to our mystery, who also had a long term girlfriend
Speaker 1: for about four years. Her name was Melissa Nix, and
Speaker 1: if you've read any of the websites or news specials
Speaker 1: about this show, you've heard of her. Uh. They had
Speaker 1: unfortunately broken up by the time our Mystery occurred, and
Speaker 1: he was dating around, apparently dating quite a lot. He
Speaker 1: was a ladies man apparently. Yeah, that French accent didn't hurt, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He was also an attractive young man. No, not a
Speaker 1: bad looking guy. He's got the heavy eyebrows and that's
Speaker 1: one of the things that you know, chicks dig, is
Speaker 1: heavy eyebrows on a guy that says testosterone or something.
Speaker 1: I don't, yeah, but they do like that. And he
Speaker 1: had really heavy eyebrows. He was French. Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: at it, okay, I ah, yeah. He was also besides
Speaker 1: meeting girls in bars, which apparently he was very good at,
Speaker 1: he would also meet them online. And in fact, on
Speaker 1: the on the date of his death, he had a
Speaker 1: first date somebody they had met online. So I think
Speaker 1: we got well, we don't know what he was murdered doing.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say I was gonna name her as
Speaker 1: a killer, but I guess I can't quite do that yet. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I guess that actually was the day before his death,
Speaker 1: because technically he died in the wee hours of June
Speaker 1: second night, two thousand and seven, but the date was
Speaker 1: on in the evening Friday June one. But accorney to
Speaker 1: one of Who's friends, uh, he was at to get
Speaker 1: as much you know what as he possibly could, and
Speaker 1: he didn't really care where he got it. He was
Speaker 1: not discriminating, and he wasn't worried, really worried about it.
Speaker 1: Somebody had a boyfriend or a husband or whatever. He
Speaker 1: just didn't care. And of course that could be said
Speaker 1: for a lot of guys, probably most guys. Really, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's kind of true. So they'll they'll do it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not dissing you by any means, so don't take
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong here, but yeah, but he kind
Speaker 1: of had a one track mind. He was looking for
Speaker 1: lots of you know what. But to repeat, he did
Speaker 1: have a first date. It was somebody that he had
Speaker 1: met online. That was on Friday evening and I don't
Speaker 1: know if he cut the date short, but he winded
Speaker 1: up meeting with ends later on. Well, he had said
Speaker 1: the date. He told his friends that the date didn't
Speaker 1: go so well, yeah I did. Yeah, And so maybe
Speaker 1: he just sort of like being an excuse and got
Speaker 1: out of there and ont met his friends to go drinking,
Speaker 1: or maybe she did the same, or maybe she said
Speaker 1: it was nice to meet you, I have to go.
Speaker 1: And I was going to say in my brain when
Speaker 1: he said it didn't go well, it's because he wasn't
Speaker 1: like in her bed he was getting drinks with his friends.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's what he meant to I don't know. It
Speaker 1: could have been, or it could have eventually just sat
Speaker 1: there stereo his adovate and she was fingering this really
Speaker 1: big knife. But well, no, don't, don't. I'm getting ahead
Speaker 1: of myself here. But for whatever reason, it didn't work
Speaker 1: out and he didn't get any you know what. So
Speaker 1: he's meeting with his friends at this place called Underground
Speaker 1: s F, which is on Hate Street in San Francisco,
Speaker 1: not far from his apartment. Hate Street is spelled for
Speaker 1: those of you who don't know H A I G
Speaker 1: H T. It's not h A T E and angry. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: not at all. Uh, it was about six blocks from's apartment.
Speaker 1: I think that would That would explain why they met there.
Speaker 1: It's just very convenient for yeah, very handy for him. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: And apparently they were gonna they celebrated promotion at work.
Speaker 1: He'd got a promotion making more money or something. While
Speaker 1: he was there, of course, he told his friend Nil's
Speaker 1: rama that the date had not gone. Well, it's so
Speaker 1: weird to me, I guess, I don't know, it's just
Speaker 1: weird to me that you would plan a date and
Speaker 1: then plan a party with your friends, like a couple
Speaker 1: hours later. It's a Friday afternoon. It could have been
Speaker 1: as simple as a meat for happy hour drinks quote
Speaker 1: unquote date, first date. I've done this work. It's like, hey,
Speaker 1: do you want to grab a happy hour drink or
Speaker 1: a cup of coffee? Because the great thing about having
Speaker 1: a first date in that situation is you're just having
Speaker 1: a drink, so you're not tied to wait for a
Speaker 1: meal or anything like that. And being happy hour it's cheap.
Speaker 1: So if the whole thing sucks, you're out five bucks
Speaker 1: and boom, done gone. I guess I in my mind,
Speaker 1: he was after one thing, and that one thing doesn't
Speaker 1: necessarily mean that it's going to be a short end ever.
Speaker 1: But but he probably told her at the outside. He
Speaker 1: probably said, look, and let's get together. Let's have a
Speaker 1: few drinks, but I've got to meet my friends later
Speaker 1: for drinks, and then he was all set to probably
Speaker 1: probably ditch his friends and go home with her if
Speaker 1: that occurred, or or you know, let's let's make a
Speaker 1: night of it, and you want to come. It's going good,
Speaker 1: you want to come with me? I've had I've had
Speaker 1: situations like that, was like, listen, I gotta go to
Speaker 1: this thing. You want to come along, cool, let's keep going.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's all of your girlfriends that you have
Speaker 1: currently on top of your wife. Yeah, they're not on
Speaker 1: top of well yeah, but anyway that that didn't wind
Speaker 1: up happening. So he was drinking with the buds and uh,
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem that the bad day it really crushed
Speaker 1: spirits because I think he was playing the numbers to
Speaker 1: see and all that he probably already had somebody else
Speaker 1: lined up for Saturday night. And by the way, she's
Speaker 1: probably still wondering why he never shown. And it's so
Speaker 1: it's worth noting that it wasn't as though he came
Speaker 1: and was really despondent and like upset the state going well,
Speaker 1: he just said it didn't go well, let's get on
Speaker 1: with our night. He was actually, according to his friends,
Speaker 1: in a very good mood. Yeah. Yeah, that's I feel
Speaker 1: like that's important to set up the rest of the
Speaker 1: night that we make sure that every it's very clear
Speaker 1: that he was in a good mood, not moby, not depressed,
Speaker 1: and he certainly didn't say anything about fearing for his
Speaker 1: life or they ought to get me here. You know,
Speaker 1: if I wind up dead, you know it's going to
Speaker 1: be before I'm really sad. Yeah, the octopus. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: of course, there is this one theory, which is that
Speaker 1: actually things seem to be really going well for him.
Speaker 1: He'd been promoted, he was doing well financially, living in
Speaker 1: San Francisco, you know, which is a nice, cool town,
Speaker 1: getting lots and lots of you know what, and he
Speaker 1: might have decided that, you know, it's not going to
Speaker 1: get any better this than this. It's only downhill from here,
Speaker 1: so I might as well go out in the high
Speaker 1: note suicide. Yeah. I don't know if anybody it actually
Speaker 1: does that not include that when theories come up, I
Speaker 1: would agree with that. Uga left his friends and left
Speaker 1: Underground Essa about one am Saturday morning, in the wee hours,
Speaker 1: and he told Neil's Arama, his friend and coworker, that
Speaker 1: he'd get together within the next day to ride motorcycles together. Um,
Speaker 1: and apparently that never happened, unfortunately, Yeah, barely. Neil called
Speaker 1: him multiple times, Yeah, Saturday and Sunday both, Yeah, like
Speaker 1: leaving an angry message and say where are you a loser?
Speaker 1: Or something. Yeah, and yeah, he had no idea. Of course,
Speaker 1: I wonder why he never called him. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: We'll find out. Yeah, as our mystery progressive here the
Speaker 1: usual eyewitness reports. Who was reportedly seen by somebody at
Speaker 1: the intersection of Hate and Webster about two am. That
Speaker 1: seems like a weird timeline, doesn't it a little bit?
Speaker 1: A little bit because he's only like six blocks from
Speaker 1: his house. Yeah, and he left his friends at and
Speaker 1: so it's it is kind of hard to say. I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe he actually bumped into some people on his way
Speaker 1: towards the front door and bumped into some more people side,
Speaker 1: I mean, who knows, or maybe swung by the bathroom
Speaker 1: on the way out, or maybe his friends, like you know,
Speaker 1: somebody misread the clock, you know, if they were all drinking.
Speaker 1: It's pretty it's pretty unreliable sources. Yeah, exactly what time
Speaker 1: it was, Well, we also don't know how the person
Speaker 1: who saw him was keeping time, I mean a fast
Speaker 1: watch or a fast clock, or they may have estimated
Speaker 1: it on They may have said they called closing time
Speaker 1: and I was outside and five minutes later I saw
Speaker 1: so it must have been after too. Not understanding that
Speaker 1: bar time is always fifteen minutes faster. Again, thou the
Speaker 1: ways that could have gone absolutely, yeah, I totally are.
Speaker 1: And and then he was caught. So the distance from
Speaker 1: the front door of the club and the intersection of
Speaker 1: Hayting Webster it's about a hundred ft. Yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 1: that's not too far. So I think somebody's time was
Speaker 1: a little bit off there. But he was also spotted
Speaker 1: on a security camera nearest apartment at two or six am.
Speaker 1: This idea is a little bit suspect. It's not a clear.
Speaker 1: One of these days security cameras are actually to discover
Speaker 1: that thing called high resolution. They're not there yet, but
Speaker 1: one of these days. But it's really dark, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean you've seen the image. Yeah, and they had to
Speaker 1: adjust the image to to see the silhouette that they
Speaker 1: believe is So it doesn't really matter too much. I
Speaker 1: mean it's not said that timeline for the murder. It
Speaker 1: does help tie things together. Yeah, I mean, if what
Speaker 1: you were saying is right, and somebody was all was
Speaker 1: like fifteen minutes off in their time and they saw
Speaker 1: him at two am, I could see him getting back
Speaker 1: to his apartment about two or six or so. It's
Speaker 1: not very far. Yeah, not at all. So he easily
Speaker 1: could have made it back in that time, but he did,
Speaker 1: long story short, make it home. It appears that he
Speaker 1: actually got home ate a little food because there was
Speaker 1: a plate we had some rice and peas on it
Speaker 1: on the sketch and counter. Yeah, so I ate a
Speaker 1: little bit. It also appears a little post bar food. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the booze exactly. And what was he absorbing the booze with? Okay, sure,
Speaker 1: why not? It's not what I would choose, greasy bacon
Speaker 1: or something. Well that's why we're not French. Probabusually used
Speaker 1: like more booze to absorb the booze works, Well, yeah
Speaker 1: it doesn't work, and then it's a good way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but whatever. So he had a little food served some
Speaker 1: websites or maybe approximately half an hour round I guess
Speaker 1: more dating websites. I think mostly dating websites. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: he was Yeah, he had, like I said, kind of
Speaker 1: a one track mind. And there's uh, something's happened, and
Speaker 1: not in any particular order, but he was stabbed three times.
Speaker 1: He went outside to the sidewalk in front of his
Speaker 1: apartment building. He came back inside, locked the dead bolt
Speaker 1: to his front door, staggered around the apartment until he
Speaker 1: bled to death, and it looks like from the blood
Speaker 1: trail he likes staggered kind of into the kitchen, like
Speaker 1: through the hallway into the kitchen and then back out
Speaker 1: into the living room and eventually fell down. And it
Speaker 1: wasn't a coherent path, not really now, not at all.
Speaker 1: But you know, I've never been stabbed three times, so hey, no,
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think it's possible to have a
Speaker 1: coherent path when you have three tuns like that. But yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: but he uh, he walked past his cell phone at
Speaker 1: least once, didn't pick it up to call on one one.
Speaker 1: There were no bloody fingerprints on the cell phone, um,
Speaker 1: and he didn't the all for help. There were sort
Speaker 1: of signs of a struggle, like his TV and some
Speaker 1: other stuff was knocked over, but you know, some maybe
Speaker 1: he was in a fight to the desk with somebody
Speaker 1: in his apartment, or maybe he was just staggering around
Speaker 1: knocking stuff over randomly. Too hard to say. So I
Speaker 1: know you're going to describe the wound shortly, but based
Speaker 1: on the amount of blood loss, I mean, if you
Speaker 1: when you go and people that are going to go
Speaker 1: look for the crame scene photos and they're they're out there,
Speaker 1: and there is literally blood everywhere on the walls, on
Speaker 1: the floor, on the tables, I mean the places coated
Speaker 1: in blood. Oh yeah. Well yet major at least one major,
Speaker 1: major wound that was gushing, oh yeah, and some major
Speaker 1: win would have been enough to ex saying when I
Speaker 1: exanguinate him in about a minute, So I mean, that's quick.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of gush and blood. So that's so
Speaker 1: I just want to say, is that, you know, when
Speaker 1: we talk about this is there's literally blood everywhere, and
Speaker 1: there's like handprints on the wall where you can see
Speaker 1: him kind of falling and sliding. And that's why it
Speaker 1: looks so inconherent, incoherent because there is so much spray
Speaker 1: going on. Kind of hard to do a real blood
Speaker 1: spatter analysis there. Really, it's kind of an embarrassment of
Speaker 1: riches there. But as I said before, those things also
Speaker 1: did not happen in that order. He was stabbed, Yes,
Speaker 1: he did go out to the sidewalk. Yes, we don't
Speaker 1: know which happened first, although I have an idea myself
Speaker 1: personally know. But but let's just say for the sake
Speaker 1: of saying that we don't know a hundred percent for
Speaker 1: share here. Uh. Time of depth was placed by the
Speaker 1: medical examiner between two and four am. But some neighbors
Speaker 1: heard a ruck us about two thirty eight am, which
Speaker 1: included I think a door slamming and somebody running down
Speaker 1: some stairs and a body falling over. There was I
Speaker 1: think there was one or two door slams. It happened, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and a and so there was a big thud, and
Speaker 1: that was around two thirty eight. Uh. And so that's
Speaker 1: what I'm guessing, the everything that started happening, that's what
Speaker 1: I'm guessing. He died. Yeah. And then the next morning,
Speaker 1: one of whose neighbors came out to get his paper
Speaker 1: already saw there was blood on the stoop outside the
Speaker 1: apartment building. And this apartment building you can find its
Speaker 1: at four six to Linden Street, San Francisco. On street view.
Speaker 1: You can see it. It's a modest, little wooden building.
Speaker 1: It's got like four apartments, yeah, four, it's got it's
Speaker 1: got a porch on it with like what four or
Speaker 1: five steps up from the sidewalk. There's two two separate uh,
Speaker 1: stone entrances. But yes, yeah, and then there's and then
Speaker 1: there's like three doorways, three doors in there and in
Speaker 1: the front of it, and so like a shared kind
Speaker 1: of porch thing there. And uh yeah, so I assumed
Speaker 1: that's where the blood all was. It was it was,
Speaker 1: it was on the concrete and the sidewalk to I believe.
Speaker 1: So the stuff that is on the sidewalk looks like
Speaker 1: it is splattered over. Most of the blood is on
Speaker 1: the first is on the landing, and then the first
Speaker 1: and the second step. He doesn't really go down beyond that. Yes,
Speaker 1: I disagree with that, but that's the way look at
Speaker 1: least in the photos I saw. But there's I mean,
Speaker 1: there's blood all over. It just looks like drops to
Speaker 1: me on the sidewalk. But there's a couple of the steps.
Speaker 1: I'm When I say not on the sidewalk, I mean
Speaker 1: not on actual street level sidewalk. There is. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: drips there. Okay, there there were drips there. Just there's
Speaker 1: like a couple of drips and then like a couple
Speaker 1: more drips and then the stairs. Then yeah, Okay, So
Speaker 1: I I had this this report here from Michael Faranc
Speaker 1: because that his name is pronounced. He's a forensic frantic
Speaker 1: for forensic pathologists who a couple of years after the murder,
Speaker 1: about a year and a half, I guess reviewed reviewed
Speaker 1: all the evidence, including all the crime scene photos of
Speaker 1: blood spatter evidence, and he said, quote, the bloodshed evidence
Speaker 1: begins on the front doorsteps and sidewalk. So that was unquote.
Speaker 1: That's so. So, yeah, there was some I don't think
Speaker 1: there was a lot on the sidewalk, but there was
Speaker 1: there was some blood spatter on the sidewalk. Now it's
Speaker 1: not and and uh, I probably made a bigger deal
Speaker 1: than it should have been. That's all right, that that
Speaker 1: gives us more time. Yeah, So anyway, Yeah, we were
Speaker 1: with back to the neighbor. He came out to get
Speaker 1: his papers, saw the blood, he calls the cops. The
Speaker 1: cops get there at eight twenty am. Uh, they immediately
Speaker 1: deduce that something had happened, and they put up some
Speaker 1: yellow tape. And so yeah, then that's about the best
Speaker 1: thing they did in this case so far. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: haven't distinguished themselves terribly, of course. But so let's talk
Speaker 1: about his wounds. Yeah, let's talk about the wounds. So
Speaker 1: there were three of them. You guys probably know, and
Speaker 1: I guess it's it's hard to say. I've always assumed
Speaker 1: that it was like it was a straight thrust to
Speaker 1: the abdomen and then a downwards stabbed to the chest,
Speaker 1: and then another downward stab at the base of the
Speaker 1: neck on the left side, in the front. So basically
Speaker 1: it was sort of into where the neck joins the abdomen,
Speaker 1: just above your collar bone kind of and kind of
Speaker 1: behind the collar bone, and that was and I've always
Speaker 1: assumed that it started with the you know, down and
Speaker 1: then up and then the dra was in the neck,
Speaker 1: But I guess that's not entirely cast in stone. I mean,
Speaker 1: it could have been in any order. You know. The
Speaker 1: description that I saw that made the most sense was
Speaker 1: that it did it was his stomach was first. He
Speaker 1: would automatically bend over, at which point somebody could stab
Speaker 1: forward again and cut him in the chest, and then
Speaker 1: stabbed forward again and hit him in the neck while
Speaker 1: he's bent over from the waist, because you know, your
Speaker 1: automatic reaction when something hits you in your gut is
Speaker 1: to grab your gut and bend over. So that's why
Speaker 1: I presumed. After I read that, I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that makes the most sense as to what order these
Speaker 1: could have happened in that makes sense. Yeah. Another another
Speaker 1: thing I thought is that is that maybe somebody stabbed
Speaker 1: directly and then and then shifted the knife in their
Speaker 1: hand and it stabbed downward. See that seemed awkward to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah and so but but anyway, however they did it,
Speaker 1: they managed to stick in really good. And that last
Speaker 1: one Devon's making stabbing milk. This is one of those
Speaker 1: stories where there's gonna be a lot of gesticulation happening. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I was just thinking, like you could do like down,
Speaker 1: down and then like like back around, like standing what
Speaker 1: they do in the movie standing in front of you
Speaker 1: and then down and then like turn around and like,
Speaker 1: but that would require him to not move what you
Speaker 1: just demonstrated, what you just described. Think it like stabs
Speaker 1: over and then stab stab stab. That's good aim, not
Speaker 1: necessarily if it's a double edged knife and the guy
Speaker 1: bends over and you just you just gave them too
Speaker 1: quick punches forward, you're just gonna hit him where you
Speaker 1: hit him, and one of them is a lucky shot.
Speaker 1: I guess I'm willing to say it's like it's like
Speaker 1: a quick stab to the gut and all he's going down.
Speaker 1: You like catch him in the chest, and then you
Speaker 1: catch him in the next as he's That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I see, Okay, Yeah, I'm just gonna keep stabbing with
Speaker 1: this one. Beaut from our listener, Dylan, Thanks than the
Speaker 1: problem sit farther away. Actually, I think she's holdier for
Speaker 1: self defense. It's got a pointy end on it. Established
Speaker 1: she filed it down to a shirt to panted this
Speaker 1: stuff on it, to this little bar, this little bottle. Okay,
Speaker 1: but so so so okay, so there, so there. So
Speaker 1: there are a couple of different ways these wounds could
Speaker 1: have happened. It could have I liked the idea, and
Speaker 1: I tend to think that the neck wound happened last
Speaker 1: because that was the gusher. I think that if that
Speaker 1: had been the first one, then there would have been
Speaker 1: more blood on the ground where the stabbing occurred or
Speaker 1: wherever it occurred, and then there would that we would
Speaker 1: have probably got the set of footprints from the killer.
Speaker 1: There were no footprints from anybody other than well, they
Speaker 1: were the only footprints at the crime. There's another reason
Speaker 1: that that could be. But let's keep talking about how
Speaker 1: so so it could have been stabbed as he was
Speaker 1: saying one grip one to three gut chest, neck or
Speaker 1: or or one grip stab and then shift grips, reverse
Speaker 1: the knife in your hand and a step down. Or
Speaker 1: or it could have been two people. Okay, could have
Speaker 1: been two people. Yeah, it could have been Or there's
Speaker 1: one more theory, right, is that it could have been
Speaker 1: It could have been a right handed guy stabbing himself
Speaker 1: and committing suicide. Yeah, and it's been said, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I think of the medical examiner in this case that
Speaker 1: his wounds are not inconsistent with self inflicted wounds. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's tough, really hard, that would be really painful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of especially when you think about committing
Speaker 1: Harry Kerry. You know, it's like you think of the
Speaker 1: idea of stabbing in your abdomen and like, you know,
Speaker 1: pushing up and gutting yourself kind of but reaching up
Speaker 1: and stabbing yourself kind of in the neck. That's kind
Speaker 1: of problematical for me. The whole the whole thing of
Speaker 1: doing it yourself is really really difficult to me. People
Speaker 1: have done it, Okay, look at Steve's got the wand okay,
Speaker 1: so but anyway, that's those are the various series. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, so one one attacker, two attackers, no attackers, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's where we're at here. I think probably one but knife,
Speaker 1: well the knife. Of course, the knife was never found,
Speaker 1: oh of course. Yeah, that's not the big twist of
Speaker 1: the story, just you know, yeah, yeah, although the police
Speaker 1: did not that they found some knives in the kitchen
Speaker 1: that that could have that could conceivably have made those wounds. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, realistically, who doesn't have a knife in the
Speaker 1: kitchen who could have made those wounds? Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: anybody who has a set of knives has knives that
Speaker 1: could have made those knives were clean. Yeah, so stabbed
Speaker 1: himself three times and then put the knives clean the
Speaker 1: eyes and put them away yeah, wall spurting blood, yeah exactly,
Speaker 1: and cleaned them sufficiently so that they had no blood
Speaker 1: evidence on them, right, So that means like bleached them
Speaker 1: for blood. Yeah, and they found it's not just like
Speaker 1: a casual scrub down with the with the whatever sponge
Speaker 1: that he has a little like dish soap on it.
Speaker 1: Still no, no, right, because that's not going to get
Speaker 1: all the blood off of it. You have to like
Speaker 1: seriously though, I think it's fair to say that the
Speaker 1: knife was not found at the scene. I would think
Speaker 1: it's fair to say that that's what that would be
Speaker 1: fair to say. Yeah. Another twist is the doors were
Speaker 1: locked from the inside, which is why some people have
Speaker 1: called this story a locked door mystery, locker room mystery,
Speaker 1: locker room mystery. I see, I got that wrong. Sorry,
Speaker 1: but yeah. And the blood spatter, by the way is
Speaker 1: unusual according to police, because there is that trail from
Speaker 1: the sidewalk up the stairs to the apartment door, which
Speaker 1: would be consistent with it was getting stabbed outside or
Speaker 1: getting stabbed inside the apartment and then going outside and
Speaker 1: then coming back inside, which maybe going outside to get
Speaker 1: rid of the knife. Yeah, yeah, maybe, Okay, I know
Speaker 1: you're not. I mean, the thing is is you're not.
Speaker 1: You're not the person who said that. I mean, you
Speaker 1: didn't make that. You didn't make that up. I didn't
Speaker 1: know I didn't make it, which is the thing that
Speaker 1: is most frustrating about. Uh huh. Yeah. The bloods better
Speaker 1: evidence does not indicate there was a struggle in the apartment,
Speaker 1: and because of that, the San Francisco Police Department has
Speaker 1: ruled the cause of death unknown. They're not willing to
Speaker 1: come down firmly on one side or the other. Suicide
Speaker 1: versus homicide. Bloods better indicates does indicate that it was
Speaker 1: moving slowly and kind of wandering around the apartment. The
Speaker 1: bloods better being like if you've been running, say, and
Speaker 1: I've been in the middle of a fight, then it's
Speaker 1: the blood droplets are kind of elongated, elliptical, whereas if
Speaker 1: he's just sort of moving slowly extanding still, they're just round.
Speaker 1: So he was moving slowly, which would indicate to me
Speaker 1: that obviously it wasn't probably in a fight. Uh, you
Speaker 1: think he'd be moving rapidly to get to his phone
Speaker 1: and call police or do something. But he was probably
Speaker 1: in shock and already had lost a lot of blood,
Speaker 1: probably wasn't thinking too clearly, and he did walk past
Speaker 1: his cell phone and didn't try to call it on
Speaker 1: one one, So you know, that kind of supports the
Speaker 1: suicide theory um along with the fact that there was
Speaker 1: nobody that we know of that would want to kill him.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, though he was in a good
Speaker 1: mood that night, there are no previous indicators of suicidal behavior,
Speaker 1: and of course the knife was missing, although we will
Speaker 1: say yet again as we do every single time we
Speaker 1: talked about suicide. Just because somebody is in a good
Speaker 1: mood doesn't mean that they are not suicidal, you know,
Speaker 1: under underneath it all. But but I agree that it
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like it's not normal. It's not standard suicide procedure,
Speaker 1: which I know there isn't actually that thing. But there
Speaker 1: are a lot of things that he did that I
Speaker 1: don't know that they just don't line. They don't They
Speaker 1: don't make sense to me. But well, we'll talk about
Speaker 1: the suicide theory a little bit more. And actually, um,
Speaker 1: I guess, I guess theories are coming up here. So
Speaker 1: but before we go into those juicy, juicy theories, let's
Speaker 1: take a quick break. We run together in the rain
Speaker 1: to a cold, tiled room, just to find that it's
Speaker 1: totally empty and deserted, before running back to your vehicle
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Speaker 1: the seat of your car in the heat and the
Speaker 1: sun and the cold of night. I watch you put
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Speaker 1: fragile than you might think. Sure, when I'm new, I
Speaker 1: look really pristine, and sturdy. But it doesn't take very
Speaker 1: much for my corners to become folded and shabby, my
Speaker 1: edges to free quickly and fold easily. I carry your
Speaker 1: things from here to there, And while I'm designed to
Speaker 1: do just that, you ask me to do more. You
Speaker 1: ask me to hold your things for so much longer. Someday,
Speaker 1: maybe you'll use me as transportation device instead of a
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Speaker 1: face it, you should let your letters experience the excitement
Speaker 1: of postal handling instead of the drudgery of just sitting
Speaker 1: on your dashboard. And we're back. Hey, I found that
Speaker 1: sandwich from last week. Then we took last week's break. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's sort of fell downage with the cushions to the couch,
Speaker 1: but yeah it's still there. The cash deserves everything preserves,
Speaker 1: coent sandwiches, cat litter. Well, that's the area has followed
Speaker 1: the T two subsets here, there's suicide and the murder.
Speaker 1: So I can do with suicide. Let's deal with suicide first,
Speaker 1: because that's the easy. Yeah, yeah, let's let's get that
Speaker 1: out of the way. This is a kind of a
Speaker 1: locked room mystery. So because of that, the police sort
Speaker 1: of thing that it's possible that's death was a suicide.
Speaker 1: And again they they've got a lot of grief over this,
Speaker 1: although tactically speaking, they haven't come down all the way
Speaker 1: on the side of suicide. They just said that think
Speaker 1: maybe I thought originally they did say suicide. And then
Speaker 1: an independent investigation was like reopened, and there was pressure
Speaker 1: from the outside. Yeah. The French opened an investigation and
Speaker 1: they were like, um, no, you can't say this as
Speaker 1: a suicide. And so the San Francisco police were like, okay, fine,
Speaker 1: it's it's open open. It was investigated not just by
Speaker 1: the French, but also I think they asked the lap
Speaker 1: D to conduct an investigation into it. I think also
Speaker 1: maybe the Marine County p D kind of shaff to somebody.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of outside investigations. Yeah, So basically it's
Speaker 1: my understanding what happened in San Francisco was like it
Speaker 1: was suicide obviously, and then like five other organizations said no.
Speaker 1: If you watch the interview with the woman who makes
Speaker 1: the declaration of the cause of death, is is what
Speaker 1: they did. They actually call it suicide. I think they
Speaker 1: eventually called it what um unknown or something. It was unknown,
Speaker 1: It was unknown, but she went to weird lengths to well,
Speaker 1: you can't you don't have anything to prove it as murder.
Speaker 1: So I'm saying it's unknown and to me, the most
Speaker 1: unlikely unknown. It was like, it was really weird. And
Speaker 1: that's what everybody got so up in arms about was
Speaker 1: the fact that the SFPD could have just said, well,
Speaker 1: we said it's unknown, we don't know how, but somebody
Speaker 1: staked a flag in the ground, and they all rallied
Speaker 1: around it. And that's what really blew up in their faces.
Speaker 1: That kind of is although I know where to go
Speaker 1: to commit murder now, because they don't even have to
Speaker 1: work that hard to make it look like suicide. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but let's see what was he having as for Okay,
Speaker 1: the front door was dead bolted from the inside. Back
Speaker 1: door was locked. I've heard that it wasn't dead bolted. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I heard it was a push lock, like the handle, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the kind of you push the button behind you or
Speaker 1: you know, you twist the lock and pull shut behind
Speaker 1: you either way, a knob yeah. Yeah. But the thing
Speaker 1: about it is so that the killer could have exited
Speaker 1: that way, but that that backdoor just leads to a tiny,
Speaker 1: enclosed courtyard. I don't know if you looked at the
Speaker 1: aerials of the building and the surrounding buildings and everything,
Speaker 1: I don't remember. There's no way to get from that
Speaker 1: teeny courtyard to the street, except it looks like you
Speaker 1: can exit, like through the basement of the apartment building
Speaker 1: and there's a there's a basement door that comes out
Speaker 1: on Linden Street. So maybe if you're in that court
Speaker 1: already have a key, well, I guess you can get
Speaker 1: out that way. Really, you don't need a key. I mean,
Speaker 1: you guys have lived in apartments, right, You've lived in
Speaker 1: apartment communities like this. It's June right in San Francisco.
Speaker 1: It's not cold, somebody's doing their laundry. Props the door open.
Speaker 1: It's propped open. I mean, it's not beyond the realm
Speaker 1: of possibility that that little basement door could be propped open.
Speaker 1: It would be a crazy stroke of luck, said murderer.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't count to have that door propped open, say,
Speaker 1: in an apartment with locked doors, in a community that
Speaker 1: has so many homeless wandering around. That's the reason that
Speaker 1: people have all those loft doors. That's why everything is
Speaker 1: that you. Yeah, but we're talking a backdoor from an
Speaker 1: enclosed courtyard, right. But that's the last the couple of
Speaker 1: apartments ago that I was in, there was an actually
Speaker 1: there was an external door that went out the back
Speaker 1: of the building. But that thing also had an automatic lock.
Speaker 1: And I always used to make me so mad. I thought,
Speaker 1: this is so dumb, like nobody here until the day
Speaker 1: I found a homeless guy back there, and there was
Speaker 1: like it was an enclosed little area, like literally no
Speaker 1: way in. Well, this guy had hopped defense. But I
Speaker 1: was like, nobody's ever going to do this this fense,
Speaker 1: I mean it was it looked really enclosed. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not actually surrounded by offenses, surrounded by buildings. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: talking about the external door that had to have the
Speaker 1: key that you were talking about. No, no no, no, that's
Speaker 1: what we're talking about, right. The door comes from that
Speaker 1: comes from that little that little courtyard. I would think
Speaker 1: that you don't really need to worry about people wandering
Speaker 1: it out the street that will get into your basement.
Speaker 1: But I would worry about people from the other buildings
Speaker 1: who have egress into that tiny court ar too. Possibly
Speaker 1: I would keep it mostly locked. I'm sure people left
Speaker 1: it open at least sometimes, So, I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: for me, it's not beyond the realm of possibility. But again,
Speaker 1: that would that would be a crazy stroke of luck
Speaker 1: for that person. It really would be. So if somebody
Speaker 1: did stab him to death inside there, well, and then
Speaker 1: how do they leave and dead bolton door? Well, it's
Speaker 1: a lock court group courtyard mystery. Yeah, courtyard. So what
Speaker 1: but what happened on the knife? Did Did you clean
Speaker 1: the knife and put it away? That sounds about impossible,
Speaker 1: And again we have to reinforce that it wasn't just
Speaker 1: a cursory scrub down that you mean. It would have
Speaker 1: had to have been an intense cleaning while dushing blood
Speaker 1: out of what is almost dear jugular. And it's like,
Speaker 1: when I've got one minute to live, I know I'm
Speaker 1: going to spend it cleaning. Yeah. Well, SFPD said the
Speaker 1: reason he went outside was to dispose of the knife. Well,
Speaker 1: that's possible. Another another theoria said he's threw the knife
Speaker 1: out a window. M but he was in the first floor. Yeah,
Speaker 1: here's the one thing I was gonna say, brought it
Speaker 1: up against other buildings now, But okay, but I when
Speaker 1: I looked at the street view, so I looked, and
Speaker 1: there's there's a tree there and there's a pot on
Speaker 1: the ground. I was like, well, they would have searched
Speaker 1: the pot to see if the knife was in the pot.
Speaker 1: But what I did notice is that the front face
Speaker 1: of his building, the one that as you're looking at
Speaker 1: it directly directly to the right. It's bumped out about
Speaker 1: two feet farther into the sidewalk. And it's only a
Speaker 1: one and a half story building. So theoretically somebody standing
Speaker 1: on Oogs patio could turn and if they had really
Speaker 1: good aim, chuck the knife up onto that flat roof
Speaker 1: of that building next door. But that, again is just
Speaker 1: that's such a leap, especially for him to do while
Speaker 1: bleeding so much and not have you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: if he's if he's got blood coming out of his
Speaker 1: neck and he hauls back to throw the knife, I
Speaker 1: would expect it to be like a rain bird of
Speaker 1: blood on the side of his house. Interesting blood spatter.
Speaker 1: And again we and as we were kind of talking about,
Speaker 1: like these are these are wounds that are going to
Speaker 1: bleed out fast, very fast. Yeah. And actually from the
Speaker 1: Michael Ferrank's analysis that I read a sentence before he
Speaker 1: talks about the but the blood spatter, and he said
Speaker 1: that it appears to him that the blood spatter is
Speaker 1: just one track. In other words, if he'd gone outside
Speaker 1: disupposed to them, I've gone back inside, then there would
Speaker 1: have been a track out. It should have been twice
Speaker 1: as much blood. Yeah, that would have been two trails
Speaker 1: of blood, there was only one, which indicates not that
Speaker 1: he came out and went back in, but instead that
Speaker 1: he was stabbed outside and then went inside. So maybe
Speaker 1: he committed suicide outside he's dabbed himself repeatedly with a knife,
Speaker 1: and then through the knife away, and then one inside dead,
Speaker 1: bolted the door and expired. Okay, that's yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: as as I will just say, that's the dumbest thing
Speaker 1: I've ever heard. It's a little silly, it's super dumb.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean I would I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I've heard
Speaker 1: some pretty dumb things, but I would say it's to
Speaker 1: dumbest things I've ever heard. Well, okay, top fifty maybe, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, so it's not It doesn't really pass the
Speaker 1: smell test with me either. I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, theoretically, if he stabbed himself in front of
Speaker 1: his apartment building, ran inside through the knife, wayne ran inside,
Speaker 1: and if the police didn't search the immediate area, which
Speaker 1: you would kind of expect him to do, and they
Speaker 1: said they did, uh yeah, so it doesn't make any sense. Also,
Speaker 1: there was no suicide. Note although it's not a requirement,
Speaker 1: it's not really required. I mean there usually is, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not required. Well so here's one. Yeah, it's really rare.
Speaker 1: I think I'm pretty sure it's super rare for somebody
Speaker 1: who's about to commit suicide to make themselves a meal,
Speaker 1: particularly one of rice and peas. I don't know if
Speaker 1: he was a vegan or not or whatever. If it
Speaker 1: was going to be my last meal, it would be
Speaker 1: something better than that. Yeah, and you would probably finish it. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's one of the things that
Speaker 1: I saw while we were doing the research is like
Speaker 1: a number of people brought up and they said, it's
Speaker 1: really hard for me to believe it's a suicide because
Speaker 1: he I mean, he made himself a meal, he ate
Speaker 1: and then stabbed himself. Like why why, that's a good question.
Speaker 1: Why why I go surfing a dating site? You know,
Speaker 1: the whole the whole idea behind surfing dating sites is
Speaker 1: there's no future plan that. Yeah, there's no somebody's absolutely
Speaker 1: no point in wasting that time, you know, if you're
Speaker 1: going to kill yourself. And of course his family and
Speaker 1: friends don't like to suicide. Terry by that you guys
Speaker 1: probably are aware and raised enough of a stink of
Speaker 1: course that we talked about the French investigation, the lp
Speaker 1: D investigation, and the French like, uh, they issued like
Speaker 1: a two thousand page report at that It was like
Speaker 1: it was massive. It was massive, and they were like
Speaker 1: pretty unequivocal that yes, it was murder. Uh. And they
Speaker 1: did find one interesting piece of evidence that the SFPD
Speaker 1: somehow missed, I guess was that who's watch was was
Speaker 1: I guess torn off his wrist and laying under his
Speaker 1: body when they found it. Yeah, and they found some
Speaker 1: a set of DNA at it that did not belong
Speaker 1: to him, which is interesting. Yeah, I don't actually think
Speaker 1: that's as necessarily damning as a lot of was out
Speaker 1: at the bar. He was probably you know, you you
Speaker 1: have contact with people. And how much DNA was it?
Speaker 1: Was it just a little spot of it? Was it
Speaker 1: smeared and sber And that's how they got it, Like
Speaker 1: I had no idea how how? And that's that's the
Speaker 1: whole thing is Yeah, I mean you can get DNA
Speaker 1: from all kinds of place, I guess for me, And
Speaker 1: the end though, it's the fact that his watch was
Speaker 1: off of him under his body. It's less. I mean, yes,
Speaker 1: the DNA is interesting. It should have presented the San
Speaker 1: Francisco Police Department with a reasonable doubt to not think
Speaker 1: that it was suicide. But the fact that it was
Speaker 1: not even on him anymore, but it was under his
Speaker 1: body is like, why would that not sign up a
Speaker 1: red flag for you? Yeah, I could. I can see
Speaker 1: something like, you know, raising her arm is in a
Speaker 1: defensive way to ward off blows. And maybe the the
Speaker 1: watch gets damaged, maybe you get somebody's DNA, but a
Speaker 1: very at least gets damaged and sort of at least
Speaker 1: partially torn off, that kind of thing. But but I
Speaker 1: I can okay, I'm I can't believe. I'm gonna kind
Speaker 1: of step up and defend the SFPD a teeny bit
Speaker 1: here and say that it is just as likely that
Speaker 1: the watch was broken prior to that, and he had
Speaker 1: set it down, and in his stumbling flailing through his apartment,
Speaker 1: he knocked it up because his apartment was in shambles.
Speaker 1: He knocks it off of something, it falls on the ground,
Speaker 1: and then he, to make the mystery deeper, intentionally falls
Speaker 1: upon it. And that part is it is me being
Speaker 1: a jerk, But he may literally have knocked it on
Speaker 1: the ground and then fallen on it and it just
Speaker 1: happened to be that. Again, they're like, well, obviously these
Speaker 1: two things were originally together when we don't really know that.
Speaker 1: It's a good point, is I could I could picture
Speaker 1: it being like sitting on the edge of the shelf,
Speaker 1: he's stumbling around, he goes to grab the edge of
Speaker 1: the shelf and hera to catch himself. Yeah yeah, so,
Speaker 1: I mean, who knows. It's really hard that the watch
Speaker 1: is not doesn't really all. I think we're all in
Speaker 1: agreement that, you know, the suicide things just suicide thing
Speaker 1: doesn't really fly. Yeah, so that leaves murder. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'd like murder better and suicide murder. Yeah, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's fun stuff. Well, the the indicate, as I think
Speaker 1: I said, the crime scene evance kind of indicates the
Speaker 1: stabbing took place outside the environment, and he went inside
Speaker 1: to get away from his attacker. And I can't say
Speaker 1: it's tea he didn't call nine one one, but I
Speaker 1: don't think it would have made a difference. Frankly, as
Speaker 1: fast as he was bleeding, oh yeah, yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: I'm afraid that he didn't have enough time. No, he
Speaker 1: was doomed, unfortunately, poor guy. But so the question, if
Speaker 1: it is murder, what was the motivation? Who killed him
Speaker 1: and why? All of his friends said that who had
Speaker 1: no enemies who would want to kill him? But obviously
Speaker 1: that's not quite true. Right, Well, let's go through some
Speaker 1: theories about possible motivations. Okay, first off, robbery murder. What
Speaker 1: do you guys think about that one? So flesh that
Speaker 1: out for me. What do you let me let me
Speaker 1: hear what you think robbery murder means for this case. Yeah,
Speaker 1: somebody goes to rob him and you know, maybe he
Speaker 1: puts up a little bit of a fight and he
Speaker 1: gets stabbed and the attacker runs away. The problem, one
Speaker 1: of the problems I have with this, of course, is
Speaker 1: that you know, whoever it was, the robber didn't take
Speaker 1: his wallet or money or anything. So the robber would
Speaker 1: have to have camped to his door and knocked on
Speaker 1: his door at two thirty or two forty in the
Speaker 1: morning exactly and deciding that I'm going to rob the
Speaker 1: person that lives in this house. Yeah, that's the problem
Speaker 1: with robbery murder is that he wasn't just walking down
Speaker 1: the street, he was actually inside and they came outside.
Speaker 1: They don Can you, um, just for the sake of it,
Speaker 1: can you tell me how it is that we know
Speaker 1: that he was inside and one outside analysis is yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean they did you know that he was inside
Speaker 1: and came outside. We know that the murder happened, or
Speaker 1: we think the murder probably happened outside, right, But how
Speaker 1: do we know that he was inside and came outside. Well,
Speaker 1: the evidence is apparently because there was food on the
Speaker 1: countertop and fear that he had made himself a meal. Uh,
Speaker 1: And also apparently there was evidence said he was on
Speaker 1: his computer for about maybe half an hour before we
Speaker 1: get murdered. I'm willing to accept the computer thing, right,
Speaker 1: But I guess for me there is a big question.
Speaker 1: And I know I said this to disprove the suicide theory,
Speaker 1: but there's no way to know. I mean, yeah, he
Speaker 1: could have made it, you know, from lunch, or he
Speaker 1: could made it as a snack before he went to
Speaker 1: meet for happy hours. Somebody may have said, Huh, this
Speaker 1: guy is dead. There's food. Touch it is it warm?
Speaker 1: If it was warm when the cops got there, he
Speaker 1: would have had to have been murdered very recently because
Speaker 1: food gets called. Oh wait, no, they didn't come till
Speaker 1: eight four years Okay, never mind, I apologize. I also
Speaker 1: had he also had some of that food in his
Speaker 1: stomach still undigested if he didn't, like, I don't know
Speaker 1: if he went on his date and then went home
Speaker 1: and then went out to meet his buddies, or if
Speaker 1: he just went straight over to so they don't really
Speaker 1: give a good time frame of And the food was
Speaker 1: pretty undigested in his stomach, so he must have been
Speaker 1: murdered recently after. I think that was the main reason
Speaker 1: the computer history is undeniable. Yeah, again, I'm willing to
Speaker 1: accept that. But the food one has always been like,
Speaker 1: I don't really understand why they found some of his gullet. Okay,
Speaker 1: apparently they look okay, well, they look at the inners. Well,
Speaker 1: one would assume they would have also done a comprehensive
Speaker 1: search of the area for or a knife point. So
Speaker 1: at this point I'm not willing to assume anything. Yeah, so,
Speaker 1: I don't know, call me crazy, but but I agree.
Speaker 1: I think a random robbery murder is probably not the
Speaker 1: right now, No, probably not one. This maybe the tiny
Speaker 1: bit more likely is that he came outside. Maybe he
Speaker 1: heard something interrupted a crime in progress said they heard
Speaker 1: several commotions. Yeah, so maybe heard the same first initial
Speaker 1: commotion and that's what drew him outside. Yeah maybe maybe so.
Speaker 1: Did he have a motorcycle or a car or anything.
Speaker 1: He did have a motorcycle, Yeah, And I don't know
Speaker 1: where he had it parked on the street presumably. I
Speaker 1: don't know where he would have put it. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess you had it on the sidewalk in front
Speaker 1: of us. Apart, well, you can in cities, even in Portland,
Speaker 1: you can rent you know, spots and parking lots and
Speaker 1: stuff like that for a long term for storage if
Speaker 1: you don't want to park it on the street. Street
Speaker 1: parking it is just so out of control and so
Speaker 1: difficult in that city that that's why a lot of people,
Speaker 1: you know, render a spot, you know, downtown or wherever
Speaker 1: where they keep their vehicle. But with the motorcycle is
Speaker 1: usually easier. I guess that's why I was asking those
Speaker 1: because it sounded like that, you know, he could totally
Speaker 1: could have been somebody messing with his motorcycle and he
Speaker 1: came down and was like, what are you doing? And yeah,
Speaker 1: and then ran away. And at that point, you don't
Speaker 1: steal the motorcycle because you get stuck with the motorcycle.
Speaker 1: Motorcycle because if you look at the security camera. One
Speaker 1: of the things that I watched was the time progression
Speaker 1: of the security camera. And there's a big old car
Speaker 1: sitting across the street. But there's no motorcycle there that
Speaker 1: I ever saw. It could be close down. Maybe that
Speaker 1: big old car belong to I don't think that. And
Speaker 1: for just for my own sake, you didn't smoke or anything, right,
Speaker 1: He wasn't impossible that he went out for a cigarette,
Speaker 1: you know. I don't know. It's a good point. I
Speaker 1: think I've seen pictures of him with a cigret his
Speaker 1: hand for some reason. I want to say that, but
Speaker 1: I can't. I'm not positive about it. I can't remember.
Speaker 1: But I mean a lot of pictures that There's a
Speaker 1: website that his friends have out in the way and
Speaker 1: you can see it. We'll post a link to it. Actually,
Speaker 1: there's a ton of pictures of him. Unfortunately, some of
Speaker 1: the pictures he's wearing a speedo. Just be warned, or
Speaker 1: unfortunately for some of us. Yeah, but yeah, so you
Speaker 1: might be smoking a cigy one of those other corps.
Speaker 1: You know, you go boozing with your friends. That doesn't
Speaker 1: mean you're a regular smoke I don't know, but yeah,
Speaker 1: that's possibly you just went outside to smoke a cigarette
Speaker 1: or something like that, and you know, and just ran
Speaker 1: into the wrong psycho boy out there and got stabbed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's good. And it's also the possibility of random murder.
Speaker 1: But that's kind of that kind of right is right
Speaker 1: there with he interrupted a crime kind of the same thing,
Speaker 1: went outside and somebody was in a bad mood. I
Speaker 1: guess I have a sharp knife. One thing that you
Speaker 1: I don't see on this list is um gang murder.
Speaker 1: San Francisco is pretty hotbed, especially in two thousand and seven.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of gang activity there. Um, and I
Speaker 1: know that there are some gangs where their initiation as
Speaker 1: you go stab someone, and so it's smaller. Is that
Speaker 1: the urban legend? No, I think it's true ur legends,
Speaker 1: the one where they drive around with their headlights. I've
Speaker 1: heard this and I've never I've never seen anything that
Speaker 1: definitively said, yeah, we have reports of this and we've
Speaker 1: confirmed this is actually it and it's not just an
Speaker 1: urban legends. And that's why I'm asking because I've always presumed,
Speaker 1: based on something I can't remember, that that was total crap. Oh,
Speaker 1: I've never heard that it was crap. I've always thought
Speaker 1: it was true. But I mean, so it's not on
Speaker 1: it's not impossible impossible. It's not impossible that it was
Speaker 1: a technically a random act of violence, but connected random selection,
Speaker 1: a murder of you know, a gang related murder or
Speaker 1: some kind. I'll go for that. Um. Again, it doesn't
Speaker 1: explain necessarily why he was outside, So that's the tricky part. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, somebody lured him outside or just be like again,
Speaker 1: he went outside to smoke a cigarette or for some
Speaker 1: reason or another and then see, yeah, so I was that.
Speaker 1: You know, there's always an where somebody rings your doorbell
Speaker 1: and you come out there's a paper bag on fire.
Speaker 1: Just an innocent paper bag, an innocent paper bag. You're
Speaker 1: not innocent, don't Okay, we're gonna rule out the paper bag.
Speaker 1: They didn't find any of that stuff on the porch.
Speaker 1: Another possibility is mistaken identify. I like this one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean not, I like a real theory, but I
Speaker 1: do like it. Well, yeah, maybe somebody saw him or
Speaker 1: and thought he was this man. You guys know this man.
Speaker 1: Hopefully you all know who this man is, right, you
Speaker 1: dream of this man? Exactly? Do you ever dream this man? Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: You do a google on it, just this in and
Speaker 1: you'll see a picture and then go look at that
Speaker 1: the drawing of this man, and look at the pictures
Speaker 1: of Oog and do you see a resemblance. There's some resemblance.
Speaker 1: There's probably some resemblance between this man and me. Well
Speaker 1: that's I'm not to like jump ahead or burst the
Speaker 1: bubble or whatever, but that's the point of this man.
Speaker 1: Uh and he I mean it was a it was
Speaker 1: a composite sketch created by a psychology sociologist as a
Speaker 1: psychic sociology psychological test or experiment or something like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a whole like point of this man.
Speaker 1: We've since found out, but early days of this man,
Speaker 1: I mean, I was totally wrapped up in the whole
Speaker 1: idea of he's creepy. It's kind of creepy. I can
Speaker 1: see super creepy. If somebody saw and I'd say, you've seen,
Speaker 1: you've been reading about this man. You see you So
Speaker 1: even though you might think the resemblance is not totally exact.
Speaker 1: They do bear. Besides just the incredibly bushy eyebrows they bear,
Speaker 1: they do have a few other features in who had
Speaker 1: I mean similar faith shape. Yeah, yeah, no, definitely kind
Speaker 1: of similar kind of hairline. I mean, I could totally
Speaker 1: see where somebody, oh my god, it's this man in
Speaker 1: real life. Oh my god, I must kill him. He's
Speaker 1: been haunting my dreams and I'm gonna get it. And
Speaker 1: he's been haunting everyone's dreams, not just mine. Everyone is
Speaker 1: doing Society of Favor. Yeah, it's yeah, exactly, and seriously,
Speaker 1: I mean, and we all know it was basically a hoax,
Speaker 1: but you know, I mean yeah, I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: know that it was actually actually out there by two
Speaker 1: thousand seven. Two thousand and six was when it was
Speaker 1: two thousand six, so supposedly when it really started. When
Speaker 1: it started, so it's it's conceivable somebody saw who thought,
Speaker 1: oh my god, it's this mandle of two thousand seven
Speaker 1: when dies, So it's had plenty of time to spread
Speaker 1: around the internet. Yeah, and so this guy is like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I've never dreamed of this man. Now
Speaker 1: I've just seen him in real life. Now, now he's
Speaker 1: going to be in my dreams, and God knows what
Speaker 1: he's gonna be doing to kill him, or I've dreamed
Speaker 1: of him a lot, and or maybe there's that too.
Speaker 1: I think the whole idea that all these people were
Speaker 1: dreaming of this guy was was the Hox part. I
Speaker 1: don't think anybody really was. I never dreamed of. I mean,
Speaker 1: this man is a kind of a mystery enigma in
Speaker 1: and of itself. It's not really unsolved anymore. But we
Speaker 1: could do an entire episode on it, so I won't
Speaker 1: delve too far into it. But that would be as
Speaker 1: it would, yeah, except for it solved. But I mean
Speaker 1: it's not unheard of that people kill. I mean, there
Speaker 1: was that murder the two girls who killed that other
Speaker 1: girl because Slenderman told them to. Yeah, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: mental illness is a thing, and when you get wrapped
Speaker 1: up in certain internet memes, I mean it's not. There
Speaker 1: are a lot of problems with this theory, certainly, but
Speaker 1: for some reason, I believe it more than I believe suicide.
Speaker 1: Which I know it's crazy, but I believe it more
Speaker 1: than I believe suicide at this point. So I don't know,
Speaker 1: So let's go. Yeah, so we'll sort of give that
Speaker 1: a maybe. Let's see what other theories do we have.
Speaker 1: He was murdered by a psycho check that he met online.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's possible as possible some Glenn close type woman,
Speaker 1: maybe attraction yet maybe the one that he had met
Speaker 1: earlier that that evening. It could have been one that
Speaker 1: he met earlier, a month earlier, who had been tracking
Speaker 1: him and it finally decided that to show her love,
Speaker 1: she had to stab him or felt scorned because she
Speaker 1: thought they had something special and more and then caught
Speaker 1: him out. I caught him out. It was nesting stab
Speaker 1: stabs because to her they were in a relationship. To him,
Speaker 1: it was really nice that one time, and thank you
Speaker 1: very much. I gotta go. Yeah, that happens, huh, it does?
Speaker 1: It does. Matter of fact. The only the only downside
Speaker 1: of the psycho check thing is the whole statu I
Speaker 1: think about stabbing somebody is it's not easy? Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: you gotta push the knife in and then you gotta
Speaker 1: pull it back out again. It's not easy. It's as
Speaker 1: easy as it looks at the movies. Now, okay, let
Speaker 1: me ask you a question, because I didn't ever see
Speaker 1: this in the reading Okay, do we know generally what
Speaker 1: they think the size and the length of this knife was? Okay,
Speaker 1: I never, I never. I'm sure that the mmy is
Speaker 1: probably medical examiner probably was able to come up with
Speaker 1: a good estimate. Okay, But if we think about this,
Speaker 1: let's just say your average steak knife, not serrated, but
Speaker 1: just a steak knife that's a relatively thin and narrow
Speaker 1: blade and that's not too hard versus you know, the
Speaker 1: big kitchen knife. You have this like two inches long
Speaker 1: at the back and about a foot long. That would
Speaker 1: I could see being difficult to getting it in and
Speaker 1: then it wedging against body parts and bones and being
Speaker 1: harder to pull it right, I mean, your body collapses
Speaker 1: on in and sucks that thing in, right. And that's
Speaker 1: why I was asking if it was Originally I was
Speaker 1: wondering about it is. Do we know if it was
Speaker 1: a single or a double sided blade? Because if it's,
Speaker 1: if it's sharp on both sides, that makes it much
Speaker 1: easier because you can literally cut it back out as
Speaker 1: you pull. Yeah. And sorry, look on your face and
Speaker 1: you didn't like I did not like that. I don't
Speaker 1: know why I didn't like that. I just didn't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it maybe it wasn't a huge
Speaker 1: knife because it did go into as long. But I'm
Speaker 1: trying to trying to measure with my fingers here the
Speaker 1: distance thing my collar bone and my long it's not
Speaker 1: I guess it's not that far. It could have been
Speaker 1: maybe a six inch. Yeah, that's a big knife. It's
Speaker 1: not a small knife either. It's not like a pairing knife.
Speaker 1: It's not a steake knife, right, I mean, that's like
Speaker 1: a kitchen knife. At least. My stake nifere about six
Speaker 1: inches long. Yeah, that depends on the steake knife too.
Speaker 1: Not a flimsy stea knife, I hope, because that wouldn't
Speaker 1: survive even probably the first or second stabbing. But yeah,
Speaker 1: but I mean I have steake knives. They are stout
Speaker 1: enough to stab people three times, no doubt. If you
Speaker 1: watched them in Bleach. No I will, I mean, but
Speaker 1: it's necessary, I will do that. But so that's why
Speaker 1: that's the only downside of the whole psycho check is
Speaker 1: just I don't I think it takes more strength. But
Speaker 1: there our women out there, especially if you're a psycho.
Speaker 1: You know, as we all know from the movies, psychos
Speaker 1: are super strong. It comes with yea, yeah, exactly. It
Speaker 1: just seems to super strength. The doctor looks at you
Speaker 1: and says your psycho and also your psycho strength. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're superhero. Sorry, by the way, for all those psycho
Speaker 1: chick listeners, I apologize in advance. Please no kill I
Speaker 1: that was actually that was actually Steve's idea. Yea. So
Speaker 1: there's one more theory. I like this one murdered by
Speaker 1: a jealous boyfriend your husband. This has a lot of it, really,
Speaker 1: does you know, Because let's face it, I mean he
Speaker 1: was like as as his friend said, he didn't care
Speaker 1: they had a boyfriend or a husband. He didn't care.
Speaker 1: And really that that takes care of the whole problem
Speaker 1: was with upper body strength and pulling the knife out
Speaker 1: and everything like that some of the problem, some of
Speaker 1: the problem. Actually, well not every guy is super strong,
Speaker 1: let's face it. And yes, I'm thinking that's the best motivation.
Speaker 1: Say that that that's the person that has the motive. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's a more common motive than being a
Speaker 1: psycho and going bersik and having a glend close kind
Speaker 1: of thing where you obsessed with somebody, but also like
Speaker 1: more than like random, right, it's more more likely than random.
Speaker 1: The only problem I have with this is that it
Speaker 1: like a normal dude who flies off the handle and
Speaker 1: gets mad and goes stab somebody to death and then
Speaker 1: never talks about it ever again and lives a totally
Speaker 1: normal life. Like that is insane. That's crazy. You don't
Speaker 1: know that that happened. He might have Actually, he might
Speaker 1: have actually gone off and gotten sown in jail for
Speaker 1: that's true. I mean, I guess he could have. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know, and this is one of the reasons
Speaker 1: criminals get caught is they're stupid and they talk. But
Speaker 1: maybe this guy was actually smart enough to just keep
Speaker 1: his freaking mouth shut and never say a word about
Speaker 1: it to anybody. There are a lot of unsolved crimes
Speaker 1: because there are a lot of perpetrators who do that.
Speaker 1: They do it and they tell nobody. Smart Yeah, alternately, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, there is the possibility he's got angry issues, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, clearly has some angry issues, gets tossed in
Speaker 1: jail for assault, and then, you know, a couple of
Speaker 1: years later, gets released because guess what, assault ain't murder.
Speaker 1: So I mean, you know, and he realizes, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I should probably not tell anyone about that smart move. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but yeah, it's just Yeah. To me,
Speaker 1: it's it's just more common. I think it's a it's
Speaker 1: a better motive to me, because I mean, psych people
Speaker 1: are nuts enough to just stab somebody because they're obsessive.
Speaker 1: They're not nearly as common as people who are willing
Speaker 1: to stab somebody because they had sex with their wife. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean that's you know, that's a good motive from murder.
Speaker 1: There's there's been a lot of killing over that. I
Speaker 1: mean it's a frequent one. I don't know that it's
Speaker 1: a good one. Frequent, that's what I mean. I don't
Speaker 1: mean good is in it's a more motivating, it's just
Speaker 1: a lot more common. Yeah. So what do we got here? So, okay,
Speaker 1: we got suicide, We've got he thought he was this man.
Speaker 1: We've got the jealous husband. I'm gonna go with jealous husband.
Speaker 1: What do you guys? Yeah, I mean, just for the
Speaker 1: sake of because I like it. I like that it's
Speaker 1: this man, this man. But I think I think probably
Speaker 1: jealous husband or boyfriend is the most likely. Does I
Speaker 1: to a degree? I kind of like the idea of
Speaker 1: the interrupted crime because that would also explain, because that
Speaker 1: the neighbor says there were two or three loud bangs.
Speaker 1: So if there's a crime going on or something's happening outside,
Speaker 1: that to me is what would draw him out. Because
Speaker 1: he's got a peep hole on the door, and if
Speaker 1: there was some angry guy banging on the door and screaming,
Speaker 1: and I go to the peephole and I'm like, huh,
Speaker 1: that's a really angry dude. I'm not opening the door.
Speaker 1: You know, my be that you actually carried the murder
Speaker 1: weapon to this, to the murder scene. He might have
Speaker 1: having seen this guy out there, and I said, well,
Speaker 1: I can't avoid this, but I'm gonna grab a knife
Speaker 1: just in case. I think that that's a pretty to avoid.
Speaker 1: You wait for the guy to bang on your door
Speaker 1: for five minutes, and then you call the cops. You
Speaker 1: could do that too, you know, like he didn't go with,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't have had to go out there. But I
Speaker 1: feel like he might have been curious enough to see
Speaker 1: what was going on and made the interruption. There are
Speaker 1: definitely those personality types though, that are like, oh yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: bring it true, I got this knife in my hand,
Speaker 1: you're on my property. I'm going to call the cops
Speaker 1: on you. Bring it, shut up, get out of here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I slept with your wife. What oh oops, you have
Speaker 1: that knife and you're stabbing me. This was a bad
Speaker 1: idea according to playing right. I mean that for me
Speaker 1: to get in that mindset is not so hard. I
Speaker 1: can see how he could have talked to himself up
Speaker 1: into that. I agree it was dumb, but yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: sure he regretted it. We didn't have longer regretted, So
Speaker 1: that's the that's the silverlining of that. Yeah, but he
Speaker 1: might have actually taken he might have actually gone out
Speaker 1: there with an eye to confront this totally, except that
Speaker 1: I don't know that we know that any knives were
Speaker 1: missing that anybody knows that. But then again that's hard
Speaker 1: to track down. Nobody knows how many knives are in
Speaker 1: my house never mind. Yeah, I don't know either. You
Speaker 1: lose n eyes from sets and and actually you can
Speaker 1: buy a nize individually too, like you know, so yeah,
Speaker 1: we have a lot in my house. Yeah. Hey, well, okay,
Speaker 1: another mysteries solved. And sorry Chippy, we left you out again.
Speaker 1: We'll work you in next time, I promise. But time
Speaker 1: for a little housekeeping here. You probably want to know
Speaker 1: if we have a website, while we do have a website. Finally,
Speaker 1: it's called Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. Uh. If you
Speaker 1: want to contact us to tell us how much you
Speaker 1: love us whatever, we have one of those email things too.
Speaker 1: It's called Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. And
Speaker 1: of course you can find us besides a website. You
Speaker 1: can find stuff out there, like our episodes which you
Speaker 1: can listen to, uh, and what else we've got that
Speaker 1: new list also of all our episode list makes it
Speaker 1: easy to find past episodes. Uh. And also we're on iTunes,
Speaker 1: among other places where you can subscribe. You can download
Speaker 1: our stuff. You can rate us, review us proferably a
Speaker 1: good review at a high rating. We'd like those a
Speaker 1: lot better. And go upload a lot of five star
Speaker 1: reviews too. We like that too, yea, yeah, definitely do that. Uh.
Speaker 1: Streaming we are everywhere also Google Play besides everywhere you
Speaker 1: can stream us. Google Play not included in everywhere. Yeah,
Speaker 1: exactly what else? Social media? We are on the Facebook
Speaker 1: where we have a group in a page. So joined
Speaker 1: the group and what else they want to do? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like the page, okay, and then just you you know,
Speaker 1: like like sort of you can sort of lyric and
Speaker 1: read stuff or you can post stuff or whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: have conversations and and stuff like that. Uh, and us
Speaker 1: how much you love us? Yeah. We're also on Twitter
Speaker 1: where we are thinking sideways, not thinking but thinking no
Speaker 1: g and we have a subreddit thinking sideways and what
Speaker 1: else merchandise you want to know, working by cool merch Uh.
Speaker 1: So we're on Zazzle and red Bubble where we have
Speaker 1: what shirts, mugs, stickers for those on the website. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think we've got a night light, you know, but
Speaker 1: you probably will find the shirts and mugs when we're useful.
Speaker 1: And that's about it, I think. Yeah, yeah, anything else,
Speaker 1: that's all I got. Yeah, alright, yeah, and obviously if
Speaker 1: you are, if you're a goose killer, you know, I
Speaker 1: know a way to make a hunter grand Just let
Speaker 1: me know and I will split it with you. Okay,
Speaker 1: all right til next week, guys, step Snap Snap