WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Death of Hugues de la Plaza 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.520 This episode of Thinking Sideways is not brought to you 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:04.800 by those stupid little earbuds that fall out of your 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:08.280 ears all the time. Instead, it's sponsored by sleep Phones, 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.120 the world's most comfortable headphones for sleeping, traveling, or listening 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:15.640 to your favorite podcast us. Sleep Phones are a podcast 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.200 listeners dream. They're super thin, they're super high quality audio 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:22.520 speakers that are hidden neatly into a super comfy and 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:26.840 pretty cute headband. Sleep phones come in Bluetooth, wireless or corded, 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:29.639 and tons of different fabrics, so you really just have 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:32.880 to try them. They are so comfortable I can't even 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:36.080 tell you just have to try them. And shocker, thinking 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:38.840 sideways listeners can save five dollars off of any sleep 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:42.440 phone product at sleep phones dot Com just by entering 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:46.600 the promo code sideways at checkout. So that's sleep phones 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.320 dot Com with the promo code sideways and you save 0:00:49.400 --> 0:01:07.000 five bucks. Check them out. Thinking I don't know stories 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:11.560 of things, we simply don't know the answer too. Bye there, 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:15.560 Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm your ghost 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:21.360 this week, joined as always by Steve and and what's 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.240 your name? I'm Joe? Sorry did I not say my name? 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:28.800 I'm Joe. Sorry. Okay, what are we gonna talk about 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:30.720 this week? Did we have any script for this week? 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:33.000 I don't know you were the Boss of the Man. Okay, 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:34.679 well here I got one. Here. This is from the 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:38.479 bottom of my suitcase. Uh. This is the death of 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:41.240 de la Plaza. And that's spelled just so you know. 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:45.319 It's h u g u e s. That's French French words. 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:49.800 It's our French names pronounced uh de la Plaza uh 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:52.400 and uh. He was killed in San Francisco in June 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.200 two thousand seven, so almost San Francisco. Yeah, he died. 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:59.000 I guess I should say he died first of all, 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:00.480 before we go to further on, to give a shout 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.320 out to our listener, Andrew, who suggested this mystery and 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:06.280 who probably is a killer also but tried just trying 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:09.560 to keep it along. I think I think so, Andrew, 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:13.720 you're not pooling us, but thanks anyway, And hopefully he 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:15.760 didn't kill him just for just to create a mystery 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:17.560 for us. But this is before we started recording, so 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:19.760 we're saying, yeah, I think it's one of the reasons 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:24.120 we have that five year rule. Yeah, exactly. Uh, so 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:27.440 so quick, very quick, biographical stuff on Uga Plaza. He 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:30.680 was French, but he had dual French American citizenship. His 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:32.720 parents still live in France. As far as I know, 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.680 they're still alive today. And by the way, they would 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:38.880 still like to know exactly what happened, because he did 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.440 have a strange, mysterious death and there were some really 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:44.239 big unanswered questions. Last I heard, they put up a 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:48.359 hundred thousand dollar reward for any information regarding us demise, 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:50.760 and as far as I know, the reward is still 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:52.919 around you guys, Have you guys heard anything one way, 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:56.000 anything to the contrary. But I hadn't really trapped down 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:59.160 the reward part. Back to back to he had lived 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:01.079 in the US. I believed he lived in New York 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:02.840 for a little while and then moved to San Francisco. 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:06.440 He had been in SF for about four years and 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:10.000 then uh, in two thousand seven, at age thirty six. Well, 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:12.200 he died. And that's what we're going to talk about, 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:14.440 is why did he die? What else did he do? 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:16.119 He worked while he was there at a company called 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:22.520 Lee Prague, which is an educational toy and oh yeah, 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:25.160 they're around then. They're still cracking out those devices to 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:27.679 educate your kids and all that stuff. So they're they're 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:31.960 big actually. Uh and he was, I guess a sound engineer. Ye. Yeah, 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:34.239 And so it sounds like a good job. One of 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:36.640 those hype in Bay Area jobs would be one of 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:38.880 the one per center. Was that in that was during 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.320 the Was that during the tech bubble? Uh? No, the 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:44.800 tech bubble was a little earlier. That was late nineties. Okay, 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:46.960 you're right, right. I just every time I think of 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:49.040 that kind of general area, like it was it in 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:51.760 the bubble or not? But it was still a good 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:55.000 paying job. You know, it might turn out that is 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:57.720 it is in the bubble, just the second bubble. We'll 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:04.680 find It's possible. It's entirely possible. It's the world. Yeah, 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:08.000 well this bubbles all around us. Uh. But anyway, back 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:12.280 to our mystery, who also had a long term girlfriend 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:14.720 for about four years. Her name was Melissa Nix, and 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.479 if you've read any of the websites or news specials 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.440 about this show, you've heard of her. Uh. They had 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.279 unfortunately broken up by the time our Mystery occurred, and 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:27.080 he was dating around, apparently dating quite a lot. He 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:32.039 was a ladies man apparently. Yeah, that French accent didn't hurt, right. Yeah. 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:34.680 He was also an attractive young man. No, not a 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:37.159 bad looking guy. He's got the heavy eyebrows and that's 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:38.880 one of the things that you know, chicks dig, is 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:42.039 heavy eyebrows on a guy that says testosterone or something. 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:44.560 I don't, yeah, but they do like that. And he 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:47.839 had really heavy eyebrows. He was French. Yeah, I was 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.320 at it, okay, I ah, yeah. He was also besides 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:53.880 meeting girls in bars, which apparently he was very good at, 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:57.240 he would also meet them online. And in fact, on 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.360 the on the date of his death, he had a 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.360 first date somebody they had met online. So I think 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:04.920 we got well, we don't know what he was murdered doing. 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:06.760 I was gonna say I was gonna name her as 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:09.760 a killer, but I guess I can't quite do that yet. Yeah, 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:11.680 And I guess that actually was the day before his death, 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:13.839 because technically he died in the wee hours of June 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:16.839 second night, two thousand and seven, but the date was 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:21.760 on in the evening Friday June one. But accorney to 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.920 one of Who's friends, uh, he was at to get 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.159 as much you know what as he possibly could, and 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.560 he didn't really care where he got it. He was 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:32.800 not discriminating, and he wasn't worried, really worried about it. 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:35.360 Somebody had a boyfriend or a husband or whatever. He 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:37.880 just didn't care. And of course that could be said 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.880 for a lot of guys, probably most guys. Really, yeah, 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:44.160 that's kind of true. So they'll they'll do it. Yeah, 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:46.480 I'm not dissing you by any means, so don't take 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:49.240 don't get me wrong here, but yeah, but he kind 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:50.760 of had a one track mind. He was looking for 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:52.640 lots of you know what. But to repeat, he did 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:54.480 have a first date. It was somebody that he had 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.160 met online. That was on Friday evening and I don't 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:59.240 know if he cut the date short, but he winded 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:02.000 up meeting with ends later on. Well, he had said 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:04.080 the date. He told his friends that the date didn't 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:06.240 go so well, yeah I did. Yeah, And so maybe 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:07.880 he just sort of like being an excuse and got 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.000 out of there and ont met his friends to go drinking, 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.000 or maybe she did the same, or maybe she said 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:13.400 it was nice to meet you, I have to go. 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:16.920 And I was going to say in my brain when 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:19.560 he said it didn't go well, it's because he wasn't 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:23.000 like in her bed he was getting drinks with his friends. 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:25.800 Maybe that's what he meant to I don't know. It 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:27.880 could have been, or it could have eventually just sat 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:30.080 there stereo his adovate and she was fingering this really 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.839 big knife. But well, no, don't, don't. I'm getting ahead 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.000 of myself here. But for whatever reason, it didn't work 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:38.640 out and he didn't get any you know what. So 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:42.040 he's meeting with his friends at this place called Underground 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:44.680 s F, which is on Hate Street in San Francisco, 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.360 not far from his apartment. Hate Street is spelled for 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:49.560 those of you who don't know H A I G 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:55.880 H T. It's not h A T E and angry. Yeah, no, 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:59.680 not at all. Uh, it was about six blocks from's apartment. 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:01.880 I think that would That would explain why they met there. 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.520 It's just very convenient for yeah, very handy for him. Yeah, totally. 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:09.279 And apparently they were gonna they celebrated promotion at work. 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.120 He'd got a promotion making more money or something. While 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:13.679 he was there, of course, he told his friend Nil's 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.640 rama that the date had not gone. Well, it's so 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.840 weird to me, I guess, I don't know, it's just 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.720 weird to me that you would plan a date and 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:25.760 then plan a party with your friends, like a couple 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:28.360 hours later. It's a Friday afternoon. It could have been 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.920 as simple as a meat for happy hour drinks quote 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:35.920 unquote date, first date. I've done this work. It's like, hey, 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:38.200 do you want to grab a happy hour drink or 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:40.679 a cup of coffee? Because the great thing about having 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:43.800 a first date in that situation is you're just having 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:47.000 a drink, so you're not tied to wait for a 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:51.040 meal or anything like that. And being happy hour it's cheap. 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:54.680 So if the whole thing sucks, you're out five bucks 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.760 and boom, done gone. I guess I in my mind, 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.440 he was after one thing, and that one thing doesn't 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.160 necessarily mean that it's going to be a short end ever. 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:06.840 But but he probably told her at the outside. He 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:08.880 probably said, look, and let's get together. Let's have a 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:10.920 few drinks, but I've got to meet my friends later 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:14.520 for drinks, and then he was all set to probably 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.200 probably ditch his friends and go home with her if 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.240 that occurred, or or you know, let's let's make a 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:22.320 night of it, and you want to come. It's going good, 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:24.560 you want to come with me? I've had I've had 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:26.440 situations like that, was like, listen, I gotta go to 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:29.640 this thing. You want to come along, cool, let's keep going. 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:33.160 I mean, there's all of your girlfriends that you have 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:37.040 currently on top of your wife. Yeah, they're not on 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:41.960 top of well yeah, but anyway that that didn't wind 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:44.720 up happening. So he was drinking with the buds and uh, 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:47.160 it doesn't seem that the bad day it really crushed 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:51.320 spirits because I think he was playing the numbers to 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:53.400 see and all that he probably already had somebody else 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:56.199 lined up for Saturday night. And by the way, she's 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.480 probably still wondering why he never shown. And it's so 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:02.240 it's worth noting that it wasn't as though he came 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.840 and was really despondent and like upset the state going well, 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.160 he just said it didn't go well, let's get on 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:10.480 with our night. He was actually, according to his friends, 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:12.720 in a very good mood. Yeah. Yeah, that's I feel 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:15.680 like that's important to set up the rest of the 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.480 night that we make sure that every it's very clear 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:21.200 that he was in a good mood, not moby, not depressed, 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.440 and he certainly didn't say anything about fearing for his 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:25.240 life or they ought to get me here. You know, 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:27.640 if I wind up dead, you know it's going to 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:34.120 be before I'm really sad. Yeah, the octopus. Yeah, I mean, 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:36.120 of course, there is this one theory, which is that 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:38.400 actually things seem to be really going well for him. 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.720 He'd been promoted, he was doing well financially, living in 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:44.760 San Francisco, you know, which is a nice, cool town, 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.560 getting lots and lots of you know what, and he 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:50.319 might have decided that, you know, it's not going to 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.079 get any better this than this. It's only downhill from here, 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:54.440 so I might as well go out in the high 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:57.800 note suicide. Yeah. I don't know if anybody it actually 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:01.760 does that not include that when theories come up, I 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:04.920 would agree with that. Uga left his friends and left 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:10.520 Underground Essa about one am Saturday morning, in the wee hours, 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.440 and he told Neil's Arama, his friend and coworker, that 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:17.840 he'd get together within the next day to ride motorcycles together. Um, 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:21.520 and apparently that never happened, unfortunately, Yeah, barely. Neil called 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:25.240 him multiple times, Yeah, Saturday and Sunday both, Yeah, like 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:27.800 leaving an angry message and say where are you a loser? 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:30.840 Or something. Yeah, and yeah, he had no idea. Of course, 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:34.559 I wonder why he never called him. Yeah, I don't know. 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.560 We'll find out. Yeah, as our mystery progressive here the 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:41.160 usual eyewitness reports. Who was reportedly seen by somebody at 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:45.280 the intersection of Hate and Webster about two am. That 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:47.640 seems like a weird timeline, doesn't it a little bit? 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:49.679 A little bit because he's only like six blocks from 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:53.440 his house. Yeah, and he left his friends at and 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:55.560 so it's it is kind of hard to say. I mean, 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:58.040 maybe he actually bumped into some people on his way 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:00.320 towards the front door and bumped into some more people side, 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.559 I mean, who knows, or maybe swung by the bathroom 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:05.520 on the way out, or maybe his friends, like you know, 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:08.920 somebody misread the clock, you know, if they were all drinking. 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:13.440 It's pretty it's pretty unreliable sources. Yeah, exactly what time 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.440 it was, Well, we also don't know how the person 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.040 who saw him was keeping time, I mean a fast 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:20.959 watch or a fast clock, or they may have estimated 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:24.400 it on They may have said they called closing time 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.760 and I was outside and five minutes later I saw 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:29.680 so it must have been after too. Not understanding that 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.760 bar time is always fifteen minutes faster. Again, thou the 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.240 ways that could have gone absolutely, yeah, I totally are. 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:39.480 And and then he was caught. So the distance from 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:41.800 the front door of the club and the intersection of 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.040 Hayting Webster it's about a hundred ft. Yeah, so yeah, 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.160 that's not too far. So I think somebody's time was 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.960 a little bit off there. But he was also spotted 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.920 on a security camera nearest apartment at two or six am. 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.480 This idea is a little bit suspect. It's not a clear. 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:00.480 One of these days security cameras are actually to discover 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:03.240 that thing called high resolution. They're not there yet, but 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:07.280 one of these days. But it's really dark, yeah, I 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:09.760 mean you've seen the image. Yeah, and they had to 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:13.760 adjust the image to to see the silhouette that they 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.480 believe is So it doesn't really matter too much. I 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:19.599 mean it's not said that timeline for the murder. It 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:22.160 does help tie things together. Yeah, I mean, if what 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:24.200 you were saying is right, and somebody was all was 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:26.160 like fifteen minutes off in their time and they saw 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:28.960 him at two am, I could see him getting back 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:30.959 to his apartment about two or six or so. It's 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:33.959 not very far. Yeah, not at all. So he easily 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:36.200 could have made it back in that time, but he did, 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.680 long story short, make it home. It appears that he 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.640 actually got home ate a little food because there was 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:44.400 a plate we had some rice and peas on it 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.280 on the sketch and counter. Yeah, so I ate a 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:49.000 little bit. It also appears a little post bar food. Yeah, 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:55.480 the booze exactly. And what was he absorbing the booze with? Okay, sure, 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.880 why not? It's not what I would choose, greasy bacon 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:01.000 or something. Well that's why we're not French. Probabusually used 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:05.640 like more booze to absorb the booze works, Well, yeah 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:12.040 it doesn't work, and then it's a good way. Yeah, 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.880 but whatever. So he had a little food served some 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.800 websites or maybe approximately half an hour round I guess 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.640 more dating websites. I think mostly dating websites. Yeah, so 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:26.480 he was Yeah, he had, like I said, kind of 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:31.320 a one track mind. And there's uh, something's happened, and 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:34.640 not in any particular order, but he was stabbed three times. 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:36.960 He went outside to the sidewalk in front of his 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:40.120 apartment building. He came back inside, locked the dead bolt 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.480 to his front door, staggered around the apartment until he 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:44.160 bled to death, and it looks like from the blood 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.040 trail he likes staggered kind of into the kitchen, like 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.040 through the hallway into the kitchen and then back out 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.120 into the living room and eventually fell down. And it 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.199 wasn't a coherent path, not really now, not at all. 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.400 But you know, I've never been stabbed three times, so hey, no, 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:00.600 I mean, I don't think it's possible to have a 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:04.120 coherent path when you have three tuns like that. But yeah, anyway, 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:07.360 but he uh, he walked past his cell phone at 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.000 least once, didn't pick it up to call on one one. 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:13.120 There were no bloody fingerprints on the cell phone, um, 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:16.000 and he didn't the all for help. There were sort 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.360 of signs of a struggle, like his TV and some 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:22.080 other stuff was knocked over, but you know, some maybe 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.400 he was in a fight to the desk with somebody 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:27.280 in his apartment, or maybe he was just staggering around 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:30.320 knocking stuff over randomly. Too hard to say. So I 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.320 know you're going to describe the wound shortly, but based 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:35.560 on the amount of blood loss, I mean, if you 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:37.400 when you go and people that are going to go 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.080 look for the crame scene photos and they're they're out there, 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:46.280 and there is literally blood everywhere on the walls, on 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:50.480 the floor, on the tables, I mean the places coated 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:56.400 in blood. Oh yeah. Well yet major at least one major, 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.440 major wound that was gushing, oh yeah, and some major 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:02.520 win would have been enough to ex saying when I 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:07.080 exanguinate him in about a minute, So I mean, that's quick. 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:09.280 That's a lot of gush and blood. So that's so 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:10.520 I just want to say, is that, you know, when 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:13.000 we talk about this is there's literally blood everywhere, and 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.200 there's like handprints on the wall where you can see 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.320 him kind of falling and sliding. And that's why it 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.960 looks so inconherent, incoherent because there is so much spray 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:24.480 going on. Kind of hard to do a real blood 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:27.360 spatter analysis there. Really, it's kind of an embarrassment of 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.160 riches there. But as I said before, those things also 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:32.640 did not happen in that order. He was stabbed, Yes, 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:34.920 he did go out to the sidewalk. Yes, we don't 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:38.120 know which happened first, although I have an idea myself 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.520 personally know. But but let's just say for the sake 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.400 of saying that we don't know a hundred percent for 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.000 share here. Uh. Time of depth was placed by the 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:50.119 medical examiner between two and four am. But some neighbors 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.640 heard a ruck us about two thirty eight am, which 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.640 included I think a door slamming and somebody running down 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.320 some stairs and a body falling over. There was I 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:01.360 think there was one or two door slams. It happened, yeah, yeah, 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.040 and a and so there was a big thud, and 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:07.360 that was around two thirty eight. Uh. And so that's 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:11.080 what I'm guessing, the everything that started happening, that's what 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:13.880 I'm guessing. He died. Yeah. And then the next morning, 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:16.480 one of whose neighbors came out to get his paper 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:18.520 already saw there was blood on the stoop outside the 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:21.360 apartment building. And this apartment building you can find its 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.920 at four six to Linden Street, San Francisco. On street view. 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.560 You can see it. It's a modest, little wooden building. 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.600 It's got like four apartments, yeah, four, it's got it's 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:33.000 got a porch on it with like what four or 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:37.240 five steps up from the sidewalk. There's two two separate uh, 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:40.560 stone entrances. But yes, yeah, and then there's and then 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.200 there's like three doorways, three doors in there and in 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:45.080 the front of it, and so like a shared kind 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:48.000 of porch thing there. And uh yeah, so I assumed 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:50.120 that's where the blood all was. It was it was, 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.960 it was on the concrete and the sidewalk to I believe. 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.160 So the stuff that is on the sidewalk looks like 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.280 it is splattered over. Most of the blood is on 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:02.400 the first is on the landing, and then the first 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:06.479 and the second step. He doesn't really go down beyond that. Yes, 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.280 I disagree with that, but that's the way look at 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:11.159 least in the photos I saw. But there's I mean, 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:13.919 there's blood all over. It just looks like drops to 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:18.520 me on the sidewalk. But there's a couple of the steps. 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:20.400 I'm When I say not on the sidewalk, I mean 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:24.520 not on actual street level sidewalk. There is. Yeah, there's 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:26.840 drips there. Okay, there there were drips there. Just there's 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:28.480 like a couple of drips and then like a couple 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:33.920 more drips and then the stairs. Then yeah, Okay, So 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.760 I I had this this report here from Michael Faranc 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:41.080 because that his name is pronounced. He's a forensic frantic 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:47.600 for forensic pathologists who a couple of years after the murder, 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:50.280 about a year and a half, I guess reviewed reviewed 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.359 all the evidence, including all the crime scene photos of 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:57.000 blood spatter evidence, and he said, quote, the bloodshed evidence 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:01.280 begins on the front doorsteps and sidewalk. So that was unquote. 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:03.639 That's so. So, yeah, there was some I don't think 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:05.480 there was a lot on the sidewalk, but there was 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:09.080 there was some blood spatter on the sidewalk. Now it's 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.360 not and and uh, I probably made a bigger deal 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:15.600 than it should have been. That's all right, that that 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.840 gives us more time. Yeah, So anyway, Yeah, we were 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.160 with back to the neighbor. He came out to get 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:24.480 his papers, saw the blood, he calls the cops. The 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:28.040 cops get there at eight twenty am. Uh, they immediately 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.600 deduce that something had happened, and they put up some 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:34.800 yellow tape. And so yeah, then that's about the best 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:36.800 thing they did in this case so far. Yeah, they 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:42.199 haven't distinguished themselves terribly, of course. But so let's talk 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:44.000 about his wounds. Yeah, let's talk about the wounds. So 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:47.080 there were three of them. You guys probably know, and 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:49.960 I guess it's it's hard to say. I've always assumed 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.040 that it was like it was a straight thrust to 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.760 the abdomen and then a downwards stabbed to the chest, 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:57.760 and then another downward stab at the base of the 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:00.440 neck on the left side, in the front. So basically 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:03.240 it was sort of into where the neck joins the abdomen, 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:05.520 just above your collar bone kind of and kind of 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:08.560 behind the collar bone, and that was and I've always 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.480 assumed that it started with the you know, down and 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.080 then up and then the dra was in the neck, 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:17.439 But I guess that's not entirely cast in stone. I mean, 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:19.200 it could have been in any order. You know. The 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:21.840 description that I saw that made the most sense was 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:25.879 that it did it was his stomach was first. He 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:30.520 would automatically bend over, at which point somebody could stab 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.880 forward again and cut him in the chest, and then 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:37.000 stabbed forward again and hit him in the neck while 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:39.280 he's bent over from the waist, because you know, your 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:41.520 automatic reaction when something hits you in your gut is 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:44.440 to grab your gut and bend over. So that's why 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:47.320 I presumed. After I read that, I was like, oh, yeah, 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:49.360 that makes the most sense as to what order these 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:52.240 could have happened in that makes sense. Yeah. Another another 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.280 thing I thought is that is that maybe somebody stabbed 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:57.639 directly and then and then shifted the knife in their 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:00.720 hand and it stabbed downward. See that seemed awkward to me. 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:04.679 Yeah and so but but anyway, however they did it, 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.000 they managed to stick in really good. And that last 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:11.080 one Devon's making stabbing milk. This is one of those 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.720 stories where there's gonna be a lot of gesticulation happening. Sorry, 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.159 I was just thinking, like you could do like down, 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:23.119