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Speaker 1: This episode of Thinking Sideways is not brought to you

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Speaker 1: five bucks. Check them out. Thinking I don't know stories

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Speaker 1: of things, we simply don't know the answer too. Bye there,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm your ghost

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Speaker 1: this week, joined as always by Steve and and what's

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Speaker 1: your name? I'm Joe? Sorry did I not say my name?

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe. Sorry. Okay, what are we gonna talk about

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Speaker 1: this week? Did we have any script for this week?

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Speaker 1: I don't know you were the Boss of the Man. Okay,

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Speaker 1: well here I got one. Here. This is from the

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Speaker 1: bottom of my suitcase. Uh. This is the death of

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Speaker 1: de la Plaza. And that's spelled just so you know.

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Speaker 1: It's h u g u e s. That's French French words.

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Speaker 1: It's our French names pronounced uh de la Plaza uh

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Speaker 1: and uh. He was killed in San Francisco in June

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Speaker 1: two thousand seven, so almost San Francisco. Yeah, he died.

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Speaker 1: I guess I should say he died first of all,

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Speaker 1: before we go to further on, to give a shout

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Speaker 1: out to our listener, Andrew, who suggested this mystery and

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Speaker 1: who probably is a killer also but tried just trying

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Speaker 1: to keep it along. I think I think so, Andrew,

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Speaker 1: you're not pooling us, but thanks anyway, And hopefully he

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Speaker 1: didn't kill him just for just to create a mystery

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Speaker 1: for us. But this is before we started recording, so

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Speaker 1: we're saying, yeah, I think it's one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: we have that five year rule. Yeah, exactly. Uh, so

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Speaker 1: so quick, very quick, biographical stuff on Uga Plaza. He

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Speaker 1: was French, but he had dual French American citizenship. His

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Speaker 1: parents still live in France. As far as I know,

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Speaker 1: they're still alive today. And by the way, they would

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Speaker 1: still like to know exactly what happened, because he did

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Speaker 1: have a strange, mysterious death and there were some really

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Speaker 1: big unanswered questions. Last I heard, they put up a

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollar reward for any information regarding us demise,

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Speaker 1: and as far as I know, the reward is still

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Speaker 1: around you guys, Have you guys heard anything one way,

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Speaker 1: anything to the contrary. But I hadn't really trapped down

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Speaker 1: the reward part. Back to back to he had lived

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Speaker 1: in the US. I believed he lived in New York

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Speaker 1: for a little while and then moved to San Francisco.

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Speaker 1: He had been in SF for about four years and

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Speaker 1: then uh, in two thousand seven, at age thirty six. Well,

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Speaker 1: he died. And that's what we're going to talk about,

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Speaker 1: is why did he die? What else did he do?

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Speaker 1: He worked while he was there at a company called

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Speaker 1: Lee Prague, which is an educational toy and oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're around then. They're still cracking out those devices to

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Speaker 1: educate your kids and all that stuff. So they're they're

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Speaker 1: big actually. Uh and he was, I guess a sound engineer. Ye. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so it sounds like a good job. One of

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Speaker 1: those hype in Bay Area jobs would be one of

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Speaker 1: the one per center. Was that in that was during

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Speaker 1: the Was that during the tech bubble? Uh? No, the

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Speaker 1: tech bubble was a little earlier. That was late nineties. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you're right, right. I just every time I think of

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Speaker 1: that kind of general area, like it was it in

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Speaker 1: the bubble or not? But it was still a good

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Speaker 1: paying job. You know, it might turn out that is

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Speaker 1: it is in the bubble, just the second bubble. We'll

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Speaker 1: find It's possible. It's entirely possible. It's the world. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well this bubbles all around us. Uh. But anyway, back

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Speaker 1: to our mystery, who also had a long term girlfriend

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Speaker 1: for about four years. Her name was Melissa Nix, and

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Speaker 1: if you've read any of the websites or news specials

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Speaker 1: about this show, you've heard of her. Uh. They had

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Speaker 1: unfortunately broken up by the time our Mystery occurred, and

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Speaker 1: he was dating around, apparently dating quite a lot. He

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Speaker 1: was a ladies man apparently. Yeah, that French accent didn't hurt, right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He was also an attractive young man. No, not a

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Speaker 1: bad looking guy. He's got the heavy eyebrows and that's

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Speaker 1: one of the things that you know, chicks dig, is

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Speaker 1: heavy eyebrows on a guy that says testosterone or something.

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Speaker 1: I don't, yeah, but they do like that. And he

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Speaker 1: had really heavy eyebrows. He was French. Yeah, I was

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Speaker 1: at it, okay, I ah, yeah. He was also besides

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Speaker 1: meeting girls in bars, which apparently he was very good at,

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Speaker 1: he would also meet them online. And in fact, on

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Speaker 1: the on the date of his death, he had a

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Speaker 1: first date somebody they had met online. So I think

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Speaker 1: we got well, we don't know what he was murdered doing.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say I was gonna name her as

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Speaker 1: a killer, but I guess I can't quite do that yet. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I guess that actually was the day before his death,

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Speaker 1: because technically he died in the wee hours of June

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Speaker 1: second night, two thousand and seven, but the date was

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Speaker 1: on in the evening Friday June one. But accorney to

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Speaker 1: one of Who's friends, uh, he was at to get

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Speaker 1: as much you know what as he possibly could, and

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Speaker 1: he didn't really care where he got it. He was

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Speaker 1: not discriminating, and he wasn't worried, really worried about it.

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Speaker 1: Somebody had a boyfriend or a husband or whatever. He

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Speaker 1: just didn't care. And of course that could be said

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Speaker 1: for a lot of guys, probably most guys. Really, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of true. So they'll they'll do it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not dissing you by any means, so don't take

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Speaker 1: don't get me wrong here, but yeah, but he kind

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Speaker 1: of had a one track mind. He was looking for

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Speaker 1: lots of you know what. But to repeat, he did

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Speaker 1: have a first date. It was somebody that he had

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Speaker 1: met online. That was on Friday evening and I don't

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Speaker 1: know if he cut the date short, but he winded

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Speaker 1: up meeting with ends later on. Well, he had said

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Speaker 1: the date. He told his friends that the date didn't

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Speaker 1: go so well, yeah I did. Yeah, And so maybe

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Speaker 1: he just sort of like being an excuse and got

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Speaker 1: out of there and ont met his friends to go drinking,

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Speaker 1: or maybe she did the same, or maybe she said

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Speaker 1: it was nice to meet you, I have to go.

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Speaker 1: And I was going to say in my brain when

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Speaker 1: he said it didn't go well, it's because he wasn't

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Speaker 1: like in her bed he was getting drinks with his friends.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's what he meant to I don't know. It

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Speaker 1: could have been, or it could have eventually just sat

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Speaker 1: there stereo his adovate and she was fingering this really

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Speaker 1: big knife. But well, no, don't, don't. I'm getting ahead

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Speaker 1: of myself here. But for whatever reason, it didn't work

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Speaker 1: out and he didn't get any you know what. So

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Speaker 1: he's meeting with his friends at this place called Underground

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Speaker 1: s F, which is on Hate Street in San Francisco,

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Speaker 1: not far from his apartment. Hate Street is spelled for

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Speaker 1: those of you who don't know H A I G

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Speaker 1: H T. It's not h A T E and angry. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: not at all. Uh, it was about six blocks from's apartment.

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Speaker 1: I think that would That would explain why they met there.

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Speaker 1: It's just very convenient for yeah, very handy for him. Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 1: And apparently they were gonna they celebrated promotion at work.

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Speaker 1: He'd got a promotion making more money or something. While

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Speaker 1: he was there, of course, he told his friend Nil's

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Speaker 1: rama that the date had not gone. Well, it's so

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Speaker 1: weird to me, I guess, I don't know, it's just

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Speaker 1: weird to me that you would plan a date and

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Speaker 1: then plan a party with your friends, like a couple

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Speaker 1: hours later. It's a Friday afternoon. It could have been

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Speaker 1: as simple as a meat for happy hour drinks quote

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Speaker 1: unquote date, first date. I've done this work. It's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: do you want to grab a happy hour drink or

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Speaker 1: a cup of coffee? Because the great thing about having

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Speaker 1: a first date in that situation is you're just having

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Speaker 1: a drink, so you're not tied to wait for a

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Speaker 1: meal or anything like that. And being happy hour it's cheap.

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Speaker 1: So if the whole thing sucks, you're out five bucks

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Speaker 1: and boom, done gone. I guess I in my mind,

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Speaker 1: he was after one thing, and that one thing doesn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily mean that it's going to be a short end ever.

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Speaker 1: But but he probably told her at the outside. He

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Speaker 1: probably said, look, and let's get together. Let's have a

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Speaker 1: few drinks, but I've got to meet my friends later

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Speaker 1: for drinks, and then he was all set to probably

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Speaker 1: probably ditch his friends and go home with her if

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Speaker 1: that occurred, or or you know, let's let's make a

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Speaker 1: night of it, and you want to come. It's going good,

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Speaker 1: you want to come with me? I've had I've had

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Speaker 1: situations like that, was like, listen, I gotta go to

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Speaker 1: this thing. You want to come along, cool, let's keep going.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's all of your girlfriends that you have

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Speaker 1: currently on top of your wife. Yeah, they're not on

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Speaker 1: top of well yeah, but anyway that that didn't wind

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Speaker 1: up happening. So he was drinking with the buds and uh,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't seem that the bad day it really crushed

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Speaker 1: spirits because I think he was playing the numbers to

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Speaker 1: see and all that he probably already had somebody else

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Speaker 1: lined up for Saturday night. And by the way, she's

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Speaker 1: probably still wondering why he never shown. And it's so

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Speaker 1: it's worth noting that it wasn't as though he came

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Speaker 1: and was really despondent and like upset the state going well,

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Speaker 1: he just said it didn't go well, let's get on

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Speaker 1: with our night. He was actually, according to his friends,

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Speaker 1: in a very good mood. Yeah. Yeah, that's I feel

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Speaker 1: like that's important to set up the rest of the

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Speaker 1: night that we make sure that every it's very clear

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Speaker 1: that he was in a good mood, not moby, not depressed,

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Speaker 1: and he certainly didn't say anything about fearing for his

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Speaker 1: life or they ought to get me here. You know,

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Speaker 1: if I wind up dead, you know it's going to

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Speaker 1: be before I'm really sad. Yeah, the octopus. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: of course, there is this one theory, which is that

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Speaker 1: actually things seem to be really going well for him.

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Speaker 1: He'd been promoted, he was doing well financially, living in

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Speaker 1: San Francisco, you know, which is a nice, cool town,

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Speaker 1: getting lots and lots of you know what, and he

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Speaker 1: might have decided that, you know, it's not going to

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Speaker 1: get any better this than this. It's only downhill from here,

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Speaker 1: so I might as well go out in the high

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Speaker 1: note suicide. Yeah. I don't know if anybody it actually

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Speaker 1: does that not include that when theories come up, I

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Speaker 1: would agree with that. Uga left his friends and left

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Speaker 1: Underground Essa about one am Saturday morning, in the wee hours,

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Speaker 1: and he told Neil's Arama, his friend and coworker, that

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Speaker 1: he'd get together within the next day to ride motorcycles together. Um,

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Speaker 1: and apparently that never happened, unfortunately, Yeah, barely. Neil called

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Speaker 1: him multiple times, Yeah, Saturday and Sunday both, Yeah, like

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Speaker 1: leaving an angry message and say where are you a loser?

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Speaker 1: Or something. Yeah, and yeah, he had no idea. Of course,

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Speaker 1: I wonder why he never called him. Yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: We'll find out. Yeah, as our mystery progressive here the

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Speaker 1: usual eyewitness reports. Who was reportedly seen by somebody at

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Speaker 1: the intersection of Hate and Webster about two am. That

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Speaker 1: seems like a weird timeline, doesn't it a little bit?

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Speaker 1: A little bit because he's only like six blocks from

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Speaker 1: his house. Yeah, and he left his friends at and

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Speaker 1: so it's it is kind of hard to say. I mean,

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Speaker 1: maybe he actually bumped into some people on his way

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Speaker 1: towards the front door and bumped into some more people side,

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Speaker 1: I mean, who knows, or maybe swung by the bathroom

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Speaker 1: on the way out, or maybe his friends, like you know,

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Speaker 1: somebody misread the clock, you know, if they were all drinking.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty it's pretty unreliable sources. Yeah, exactly what time

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Speaker 1: it was, Well, we also don't know how the person

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Speaker 1: who saw him was keeping time, I mean a fast

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Speaker 1: watch or a fast clock, or they may have estimated

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Speaker 1: it on They may have said they called closing time

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Speaker 1: and I was outside and five minutes later I saw

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Speaker 1: so it must have been after too. Not understanding that

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Speaker 1: bar time is always fifteen minutes faster. Again, thou the

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Speaker 1: ways that could have gone absolutely, yeah, I totally are.

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Speaker 1: And and then he was caught. So the distance from

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Speaker 1: the front door of the club and the intersection of

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Speaker 1: Hayting Webster it's about a hundred ft. Yeah, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's not too far. So I think somebody's time was

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Speaker 1: a little bit off there. But he was also spotted

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Speaker 1: on a security camera nearest apartment at two or six am.

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Speaker 1: This idea is a little bit suspect. It's not a clear.

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Speaker 1: One of these days security cameras are actually to discover

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Speaker 1: that thing called high resolution. They're not there yet, but

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Speaker 1: one of these days. But it's really dark, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean you've seen the image. Yeah, and they had to

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Speaker 1: adjust the image to to see the silhouette that they

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Speaker 1: believe is So it doesn't really matter too much. I

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Speaker 1: mean it's not said that timeline for the murder. It

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Speaker 1: does help tie things together. Yeah, I mean, if what

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Speaker 1: you were saying is right, and somebody was all was

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Speaker 1: like fifteen minutes off in their time and they saw

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Speaker 1: him at two am, I could see him getting back

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Speaker 1: to his apartment about two or six or so. It's

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Speaker 1: not very far. Yeah, not at all. So he easily

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Speaker 1: could have made it back in that time, but he did,

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Speaker 1: long story short, make it home. It appears that he

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Speaker 1: actually got home ate a little food because there was

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Speaker 1: a plate we had some rice and peas on it

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Speaker 1: on the sketch and counter. Yeah, so I ate a

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Speaker 1: little bit. It also appears a little post bar food. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the booze exactly. And what was he absorbing the booze with? Okay, sure,

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Speaker 1: why not? It's not what I would choose, greasy bacon

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Speaker 1: or something. Well that's why we're not French. Probabusually used

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Speaker 1: like more booze to absorb the booze works, Well, yeah

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Speaker 1: it doesn't work, and then it's a good way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but whatever. So he had a little food served some

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Speaker 1: websites or maybe approximately half an hour round I guess

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Speaker 1: more dating websites. I think mostly dating websites. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: he was Yeah, he had, like I said, kind of

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Speaker 1: a one track mind. And there's uh, something's happened, and

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Speaker 1: not in any particular order, but he was stabbed three times.

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Speaker 1: He went outside to the sidewalk in front of his

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Speaker 1: apartment building. He came back inside, locked the dead bolt

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Speaker 1: to his front door, staggered around the apartment until he

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Speaker 1: bled to death, and it looks like from the blood

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Speaker 1: trail he likes staggered kind of into the kitchen, like

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Speaker 1: through the hallway into the kitchen and then back out

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Speaker 1: into the living room and eventually fell down. And it

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Speaker 1: wasn't a coherent path, not really now, not at all.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I've never been stabbed three times, so hey, no,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think it's possible to have a

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Speaker 1: coherent path when you have three tuns like that. But yeah, anyway,

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Speaker 1: but he uh, he walked past his cell phone at

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Speaker 1: least once, didn't pick it up to call on one one.

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Speaker 1: There were no bloody fingerprints on the cell phone, um,

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Speaker 1: and he didn't the all for help. There were sort

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Speaker 1: of signs of a struggle, like his TV and some

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Speaker 1: other stuff was knocked over, but you know, some maybe

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Speaker 1: he was in a fight to the desk with somebody

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Speaker 1: in his apartment, or maybe he was just staggering around

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Speaker 1: knocking stuff over randomly. Too hard to say. So I

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Speaker 1: know you're going to describe the wound shortly, but based

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Speaker 1: on the amount of blood loss, I mean, if you

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Speaker 1: when you go and people that are going to go

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Speaker 1: look for the crame scene photos and they're they're out there,

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Speaker 1: and there is literally blood everywhere on the walls, on

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Speaker 1: the floor, on the tables, I mean the places coated

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Speaker 1: in blood. Oh yeah. Well yet major at least one major,

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Speaker 1: major wound that was gushing, oh yeah, and some major

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Speaker 1: win would have been enough to ex saying when I

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Speaker 1: exanguinate him in about a minute, So I mean, that's quick.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of gush and blood. So that's so

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Speaker 1: I just want to say, is that, you know, when

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Speaker 1: we talk about this is there's literally blood everywhere, and

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Speaker 1: there's like handprints on the wall where you can see

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Speaker 1: him kind of falling and sliding. And that's why it

302
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Speaker 1: looks so inconherent, incoherent because there is so much spray

303
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Speaker 1: going on. Kind of hard to do a real blood

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Speaker 1: spatter analysis there. Really, it's kind of an embarrassment of

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Speaker 1: riches there. But as I said before, those things also

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Speaker 1: did not happen in that order. He was stabbed, Yes,

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Speaker 1: he did go out to the sidewalk. Yes, we don't

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Speaker 1: know which happened first, although I have an idea myself

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Speaker 1: personally know. But but let's just say for the sake

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Speaker 1: of saying that we don't know a hundred percent for

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Speaker 1: share here. Uh. Time of depth was placed by the

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Speaker 1: medical examiner between two and four am. But some neighbors

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Speaker 1: heard a ruck us about two thirty eight am, which

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Speaker 1: included I think a door slamming and somebody running down

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Speaker 1: some stairs and a body falling over. There was I

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Speaker 1: think there was one or two door slams. It happened, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and a and so there was a big thud, and

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Speaker 1: that was around two thirty eight. Uh. And so that's

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Speaker 1: what I'm guessing, the everything that started happening, that's what

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing. He died. Yeah. And then the next morning,

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Speaker 1: one of whose neighbors came out to get his paper

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Speaker 1: already saw there was blood on the stoop outside the

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Speaker 1: apartment building. And this apartment building you can find its

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Speaker 1: at four six to Linden Street, San Francisco. On street view.

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Speaker 1: You can see it. It's a modest, little wooden building.

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Speaker 1: It's got like four apartments, yeah, four, it's got it's

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Speaker 1: got a porch on it with like what four or

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Speaker 1: five steps up from the sidewalk. There's two two separate uh,

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Speaker 1: stone entrances. But yes, yeah, and then there's and then

330
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Speaker 1: there's like three doorways, three doors in there and in

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Speaker 1: the front of it, and so like a shared kind

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Speaker 1: of porch thing there. And uh yeah, so I assumed

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Speaker 1: that's where the blood all was. It was it was,

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Speaker 1: it was on the concrete and the sidewalk to I believe.

335
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Speaker 1: So the stuff that is on the sidewalk looks like

336
00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,280
Speaker 1: it is splattered over. Most of the blood is on

337
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Speaker 1: the first is on the landing, and then the first

338
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,479
Speaker 1: and the second step. He doesn't really go down beyond that. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I disagree with that, but that's the way look at

340
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Speaker 1: least in the photos I saw. But there's I mean,

341
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Speaker 1: there's blood all over. It just looks like drops to

342
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Speaker 1: me on the sidewalk. But there's a couple of the steps.

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Speaker 1: I'm When I say not on the sidewalk, I mean

344
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Speaker 1: not on actual street level sidewalk. There is. Yeah, there's

345
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Speaker 1: drips there. Okay, there there were drips there. Just there's

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Speaker 1: like a couple of drips and then like a couple

347
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Speaker 1: more drips and then the stairs. Then yeah, Okay, So

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Speaker 1: I I had this this report here from Michael Faranc

349
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Speaker 1: because that his name is pronounced. He's a forensic frantic

350
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Speaker 1: for forensic pathologists who a couple of years after the murder,

351
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Speaker 1: about a year and a half, I guess reviewed reviewed

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Speaker 1: all the evidence, including all the crime scene photos of

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Speaker 1: blood spatter evidence, and he said, quote, the bloodshed evidence

354
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Speaker 1: begins on the front doorsteps and sidewalk. So that was unquote.

355
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Speaker 1: That's so. So, yeah, there was some I don't think

356
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,480
Speaker 1: there was a lot on the sidewalk, but there was

357
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Speaker 1: there was some blood spatter on the sidewalk. Now it's

358
00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,360
Speaker 1: not and and uh, I probably made a bigger deal

359
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,600
Speaker 1: than it should have been. That's all right, that that

360
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,840
Speaker 1: gives us more time. Yeah, So anyway, Yeah, we were

361
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Speaker 1: with back to the neighbor. He came out to get

362
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Speaker 1: his papers, saw the blood, he calls the cops. The

363
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Speaker 1: cops get there at eight twenty am. Uh, they immediately

364
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Speaker 1: deduce that something had happened, and they put up some

365
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Speaker 1: yellow tape. And so yeah, then that's about the best

366
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Speaker 1: thing they did in this case so far. Yeah, they

367
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:42,199
Speaker 1: haven't distinguished themselves terribly, of course. But so let's talk

368
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Speaker 1: about his wounds. Yeah, let's talk about the wounds. So

369
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Speaker 1: there were three of them. You guys probably know, and

370
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Speaker 1: I guess it's it's hard to say. I've always assumed

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Speaker 1: that it was like it was a straight thrust to

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Speaker 1: the abdomen and then a downwards stabbed to the chest,

373
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Speaker 1: and then another downward stab at the base of the

374
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Speaker 1: neck on the left side, in the front. So basically

375
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Speaker 1: it was sort of into where the neck joins the abdomen,

376
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Speaker 1: just above your collar bone kind of and kind of

377
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Speaker 1: behind the collar bone, and that was and I've always

378
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,480
Speaker 1: assumed that it started with the you know, down and

379
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Speaker 1: then up and then the dra was in the neck,

380
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Speaker 1: But I guess that's not entirely cast in stone. I mean,

381
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Speaker 1: it could have been in any order. You know. The

382
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Speaker 1: description that I saw that made the most sense was

383
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Speaker 1: that it did it was his stomach was first. He

384
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Speaker 1: would automatically bend over, at which point somebody could stab

385
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Speaker 1: forward again and cut him in the chest, and then

386
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 1: stabbed forward again and hit him in the neck while

387
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,280
Speaker 1: he's bent over from the waist, because you know, your

388
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Speaker 1: automatic reaction when something hits you in your gut is

389
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Speaker 1: to grab your gut and bend over. So that's why

390
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 1: I presumed. After I read that, I was like, oh, yeah,

391
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Speaker 1: that makes the most sense as to what order these

392
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,240
Speaker 1: could have happened in that makes sense. Yeah. Another another

393
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Speaker 1: thing I thought is that is that maybe somebody stabbed

394
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Speaker 1: directly and then and then shifted the knife in their

395
00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,720
Speaker 1: hand and it stabbed downward. See that seemed awkward to me.

396
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,679
Speaker 1: Yeah and so but but anyway, however they did it,

397
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 1: they managed to stick in really good. And that last

398
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 1: one Devon's making stabbing milk. This is one of those

399
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,720
Speaker 1: stories where there's gonna be a lot of gesticulation happening. Sorry,

400
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,159
Speaker 1: I was just thinking, like you could do like down,

401
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:23,119
Speaker 1: down and then like like back around, like standing what

402
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,439
Speaker 1: they do in the movie standing in front of you

403
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,959
Speaker 1: and then down and then like turn around and like,

404
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,480
Speaker 1: but that would require him to not move what you

405
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,960
Speaker 1: just demonstrated, what you just described. Think it like stabs

406
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,159
Speaker 1: over and then stab stab stab. That's good aim, not

407
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 1: necessarily if it's a double edged knife and the guy

408
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,440
Speaker 1: bends over and you just you just gave them too

409
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 1: quick punches forward, you're just gonna hit him where you

410
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,280
Speaker 1: hit him, and one of them is a lucky shot.

411
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Speaker 1: I guess I'm willing to say it's like it's like

412
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Speaker 1: a quick stab to the gut and all he's going down.

413
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:02,439
Speaker 1: You like catch him in the chest, and then you

414
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 1: catch him in the next as he's That's what I'm saying.

415
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,639
Speaker 1: I see, Okay, Yeah, I'm just gonna keep stabbing with

416
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:14,639
Speaker 1: this one. Beaut from our listener, Dylan, Thanks than the

417
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 1: problem sit farther away. Actually, I think she's holdier for

418
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,359
Speaker 1: self defense. It's got a pointy end on it. Established

419
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:27,439
Speaker 1: she filed it down to a shirt to panted this

420
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 1: stuff on it, to this little bar, this little bottle. Okay,

421
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,239
Speaker 1: but so so so okay, so there, so there. So

422
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 1: there are a couple of different ways these wounds could

423
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 1: have happened. It could have I liked the idea, and

424
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 1: I tend to think that the neck wound happened last

425
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,679
Speaker 1: because that was the gusher. I think that if that

426
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,400
Speaker 1: had been the first one, then there would have been

427
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 1: more blood on the ground where the stabbing occurred or

428
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,880
Speaker 1: wherever it occurred, and then there would that we would

429
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 1: have probably got the set of footprints from the killer.

430
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 1: There were no footprints from anybody other than well, they

431
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 1: were the only footprints at the crime. There's another reason

432
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 1: that that could be. But let's keep talking about how

433
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 1: so so it could have been stabbed as he was

434
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 1: saying one grip one to three gut chest, neck or

435
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 1: or or one grip stab and then shift grips, reverse

436
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 1: the knife in your hand and a step down. Or

437
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,399
Speaker 1: or it could have been two people. Okay, could have

438
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,200
Speaker 1: been two people. Yeah, it could have been Or there's

439
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,640
Speaker 1: one more theory, right, is that it could have been

440
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 1: It could have been a right handed guy stabbing himself

441
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 1: and committing suicide. Yeah, and it's been said, but yeah,

442
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 1: I think of the medical examiner in this case that

443
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 1: his wounds are not inconsistent with self inflicted wounds. I mean,

444
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 1: it's tough, really hard, that would be really painful. Yeah,

445
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of especially when you think about committing

446
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: Harry Kerry. You know, it's like you think of the

447
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 1: idea of stabbing in your abdomen and like, you know,

448
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,479
Speaker 1: pushing up and gutting yourself kind of but reaching up

449
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: and stabbing yourself kind of in the neck. That's kind

450
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 1: of problematical for me. The whole the whole thing of

451
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 1: doing it yourself is really really difficult to me. People

452
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,879
Speaker 1: have done it, Okay, look at Steve's got the wand okay,

453
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 1: so but anyway, that's those are the various series. I mean,

454
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 1: you know, so one one attacker, two attackers, no attackers, Okay,

455
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: that's where we're at here. I think probably one but knife,

456
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 1: well the knife. Of course, the knife was never found,

457
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 1: oh of course. Yeah, that's not the big twist of

458
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 1: the story, just you know, yeah, yeah, although the police

459
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 1: did not that they found some knives in the kitchen

460
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 1: that that could have that could conceivably have made those wounds. Well,

461
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 1: I mean, realistically, who doesn't have a knife in the

462
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: kitchen who could have made those wounds? Yeah, I mean,

463
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: anybody who has a set of knives has knives that

464
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 1: could have made those knives were clean. Yeah, so stabbed

465
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 1: himself three times and then put the knives clean the

466
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 1: eyes and put them away yeah, wall spurting blood, yeah exactly,

467
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 1: and cleaned them sufficiently so that they had no blood

468
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 1: evidence on them, right, So that means like bleached them

469
00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:59,919
Speaker 1: for blood. Yeah, and they found it's not just like

470
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 1: a casual scrub down with the with the whatever sponge

471
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 1: that he has a little like dish soap on it.

472
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: Still no, no, right, because that's not going to get

473
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 1: all the blood off of it. You have to like

474
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 1: seriously though, I think it's fair to say that the

475
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 1: knife was not found at the scene. I would think

476
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 1: it's fair to say that that's what that would be

477
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 1: fair to say. Yeah. Another twist is the doors were

478
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: locked from the inside, which is why some people have

479
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: called this story a locked door mystery, locker room mystery,

480
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: locker room mystery. I see, I got that wrong. Sorry,

481
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: but yeah. And the blood spatter, by the way is

482
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 1: unusual according to police, because there is that trail from

483
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: the sidewalk up the stairs to the apartment door, which

484
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 1: would be consistent with it was getting stabbed outside or

485
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 1: getting stabbed inside the apartment and then going outside and

486
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: then coming back inside, which maybe going outside to get

487
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: rid of the knife. Yeah, yeah, maybe, Okay, I know

488
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 1: you're not. I mean, the thing is is you're not.

489
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: You're not the person who said that. I mean, you

490
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: didn't make that. You didn't make that up. I didn't

491
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 1: know I didn't make it, which is the thing that

492
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 1: is most frustrating about. Uh huh. Yeah. The bloods better

493
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: evidence does not indicate there was a struggle in the apartment,

494
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: and because of that, the San Francisco Police Department has

495
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 1: ruled the cause of death unknown. They're not willing to

496
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: come down firmly on one side or the other. Suicide

497
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 1: versus homicide. Bloods better indicates does indicate that it was

498
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 1: moving slowly and kind of wandering around the apartment. The

499
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: bloods better being like if you've been running, say, and

500
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: I've been in the middle of a fight, then it's

501
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 1: the blood droplets are kind of elongated, elliptical, whereas if

502
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: he's just sort of moving slowly extanding still, they're just round.

503
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: So he was moving slowly, which would indicate to me

504
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: that obviously it wasn't probably in a fight. Uh, you

505
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 1: think he'd be moving rapidly to get to his phone

506
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 1: and call police or do something. But he was probably

507
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 1: in shock and already had lost a lot of blood,

508
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: probably wasn't thinking too clearly, and he did walk past

509
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 1: his cell phone and didn't try to call it on

510
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 1: one one, So you know, that kind of supports the

511
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: suicide theory um along with the fact that there was

512
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: nobody that we know of that would want to kill him.

513
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 1: On the other hand, though he was in a good

514
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: mood that night, there are no previous indicators of suicidal behavior,

515
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 1: and of course the knife was missing, although we will

516
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: say yet again as we do every single time we

517
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: talked about suicide. Just because somebody is in a good

518
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: mood doesn't mean that they are not suicidal, you know,

519
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 1: under underneath it all. But but I agree that it

520
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like it's not normal. It's not standard suicide procedure,

521
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 1: which I know there isn't actually that thing. But there

522
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: are a lot of things that he did that I

523
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 1: don't know that they just don't line. They don't They

524
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: don't make sense to me. But well, we'll talk about

525
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: the suicide theory a little bit more. And actually, um,

526
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: I guess, I guess theories are coming up here. So

527
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: but before we go into those juicy, juicy theories, let's

528
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: take a quick break. We run together in the rain

529
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: to a cold, tiled room, just to find that it's

530
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: totally empty and deserted, before running back to your vehicle

531
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: that brought us there. We do this for days and days.

532
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: Eventually you get frustrated and you just leave me on

533
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: the seat of your car in the heat and the

534
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: sun and the cold of night. I watch you put

535
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: other more important things on top of me. I'm more

536
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: fragile than you might think. Sure, when I'm new, I

537
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: look really pristine, and sturdy. But it doesn't take very

538
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: much for my corners to become folded and shabby, my

539
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: edges to free quickly and fold easily. I carry your

540
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: things from here to there, And while I'm designed to

541
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: do just that, you ask me to do more. You

542
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: ask me to hold your things for so much longer. Someday,

543
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: maybe you'll use me as transportation device instead of a

544
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: storage device. Your mother would really love this birthday card,

545
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: even though it's a month late. The problem is you

546
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: just can't find the time to buy stamps. The good

547
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 1: news is it's really easy to buy stamps on stamps

548
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: dot Com. Anything you can do at the post office

549
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 1: you can now do right from your desk with stamps

550
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: dot com. Buy in print official US postage for any

551
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: letter package using your own computer and printer. And unlike

552
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: the post office, Stamps dot Calm never closes, so you

553
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: can get postage whenever you need it. I've used it,

554
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: I've loved it. It's super fast and easy. Right now,

555
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: if you use the code thinking for this special offer,

556
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: you can get a four week trial that includes postage

557
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: and a digital scale. So don't wait. Go to stamps

558
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 1: dot com before anything else. You can click on the

559
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: little radio microphone at the top and type in thinking

560
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: that's stamps dot com with the code, thinking, because let's

561
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: face it, you should let your letters experience the excitement

562
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: of postal handling instead of the drudgery of just sitting

563
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: on your dashboard. And we're back. Hey, I found that

564
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: sandwich from last week. Then we took last week's break. Yeah,

565
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: it's sort of fell downage with the cushions to the couch,

566
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: but yeah it's still there. The cash deserves everything preserves,

567
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: coent sandwiches, cat litter. Well, that's the area has followed

568
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: the T two subsets here, there's suicide and the murder.

569
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: So I can do with suicide. Let's deal with suicide first,

570
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: because that's the easy. Yeah, yeah, let's let's get that

571
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,959
Speaker 1: out of the way. This is a kind of a

572
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: locked room mystery. So because of that, the police sort

573
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: of thing that it's possible that's death was a suicide.

574
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: And again they they've got a lot of grief over this,

575
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: although tactically speaking, they haven't come down all the way

576
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: on the side of suicide. They just said that think

577
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: maybe I thought originally they did say suicide. And then

578
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: an independent investigation was like reopened, and there was pressure

579
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: from the outside. Yeah. The French opened an investigation and

580
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: they were like, um, no, you can't say this as

581
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: a suicide. And so the San Francisco police were like, okay, fine,

582
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: it's it's open open. It was investigated not just by

583
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: the French, but also I think they asked the lap

584
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: D to conduct an investigation into it. I think also

585
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: maybe the Marine County p D kind of shaff to somebody.

586
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: There's a lot of outside investigations. Yeah, So basically it's

587
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: my understanding what happened in San Francisco was like it

588
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: was suicide obviously, and then like five other organizations said no.

589
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: If you watch the interview with the woman who makes

590
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: the declaration of the cause of death, is is what

591
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: they did. They actually call it suicide. I think they

592
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: eventually called it what um unknown or something. It was unknown,

593
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: It was unknown, but she went to weird lengths to well,

594
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: you can't you don't have anything to prove it as murder.

595
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: So I'm saying it's unknown and to me, the most

596
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: unlikely unknown. It was like, it was really weird. And

597
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: that's what everybody got so up in arms about was

598
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: the fact that the SFPD could have just said, well,

599
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: we said it's unknown, we don't know how, but somebody

600
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: staked a flag in the ground, and they all rallied

601
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: around it. And that's what really blew up in their faces.

602
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: That kind of is although I know where to go

603
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: to commit murder now, because they don't even have to

604
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: work that hard to make it look like suicide. Yeah,

605
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: but let's see what was he having as for Okay,

606
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: the front door was dead bolted from the inside. Back

607
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: door was locked. I've heard that it wasn't dead bolted. Yeah,

608
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: I heard it was a push lock, like the handle, Yeah,

609
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: the kind of you push the button behind you or

610
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: you know, you twist the lock and pull shut behind

611
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: you either way, a knob yeah. Yeah. But the thing

612
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: about it is so that the killer could have exited

613
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: that way, but that that backdoor just leads to a tiny,

614
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: enclosed courtyard. I don't know if you looked at the

615
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: aerials of the building and the surrounding buildings and everything,

616
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,959
Speaker 1: I don't remember. There's no way to get from that

617
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: teeny courtyard to the street, except it looks like you

618
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: can exit, like through the basement of the apartment building

619
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: and there's a there's a basement door that comes out

620
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: on Linden Street. So maybe if you're in that court

621
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: already have a key, well, I guess you can get

622
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: out that way. Really, you don't need a key. I mean,

623
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: you guys have lived in apartments, right, You've lived in

624
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: apartment communities like this. It's June right in San Francisco.

625
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: It's not cold, somebody's doing their laundry. Props the door open.

626
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: It's propped open. I mean, it's not beyond the realm

627
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: of possibility that that little basement door could be propped open.

628
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: It would be a crazy stroke of luck, said murderer.

629
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: I wouldn't count to have that door propped open, say,

630
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: in an apartment with locked doors, in a community that

631
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: has so many homeless wandering around. That's the reason that

632
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: people have all those loft doors. That's why everything is

633
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: that you. Yeah, but we're talking a backdoor from an

634
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: enclosed courtyard, right. But that's the last the couple of

635
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: apartments ago that I was in, there was an actually

636
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: there was an external door that went out the back

637
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: of the building. But that thing also had an automatic lock.

638
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: And I always used to make me so mad. I thought,

639
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: this is so dumb, like nobody here until the day

640
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: I found a homeless guy back there, and there was

641
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: like it was an enclosed little area, like literally no

642
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: way in. Well, this guy had hopped defense. But I

643
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: was like, nobody's ever going to do this this fense,

644
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: I mean it was it looked really enclosed. Yeah, it's

645
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: not actually surrounded by offenses, surrounded by buildings. Yeah, I'm

646
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: talking about the external door that had to have the

647
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: key that you were talking about. No, no no, no, that's

648
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: what we're talking about, right. The door comes from that

649
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: comes from that little that little courtyard. I would think

650
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: that you don't really need to worry about people wandering

651
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: it out the street that will get into your basement.

652
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: But I would worry about people from the other buildings

653
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: who have egress into that tiny court ar too. Possibly

654
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: I would keep it mostly locked. I'm sure people left

655
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: it open at least sometimes, So, I mean, it's it's

656
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: for me, it's not beyond the realm of possibility. But again,

657
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: that would that would be a crazy stroke of luck

658
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: for that person. It really would be. So if somebody

659
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: did stab him to death inside there, well, and then

660
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: how do they leave and dead bolton door? Well, it's

661
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: a lock court group courtyard mystery. Yeah, courtyard. So what

662
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: but what happened on the knife? Did Did you clean

663
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,719
Speaker 1: the knife and put it away? That sounds about impossible,

664
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: And again we have to reinforce that it wasn't just

665
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: a cursory scrub down that you mean. It would have

666
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: had to have been an intense cleaning while dushing blood

667
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: out of what is almost dear jugular. And it's like,

668
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: when I've got one minute to live, I know I'm

669
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: going to spend it cleaning. Yeah. Well, SFPD said the

670
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: reason he went outside was to dispose of the knife. Well,

671
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 1: that's possible. Another another theoria said he's threw the knife

672
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 1: out a window. M but he was in the first floor. Yeah,

673
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: here's the one thing I was gonna say, brought it

674
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: up against other buildings now, But okay, but I when

675
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: I looked at the street view, so I looked, and

676
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: there's there's a tree there and there's a pot on

677
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 1: the ground. I was like, well, they would have searched

678
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: the pot to see if the knife was in the pot.

679
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: But what I did notice is that the front face

680
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: of his building, the one that as you're looking at

681
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: it directly directly to the right. It's bumped out about

682
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: two feet farther into the sidewalk. And it's only a

683
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,800
Speaker 1: one and a half story building. So theoretically somebody standing

684
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: on Oogs patio could turn and if they had really

685
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: good aim, chuck the knife up onto that flat roof

686
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 1: of that building next door. But that, again is just

687
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: that's such a leap, especially for him to do while

688
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 1: bleeding so much and not have you know, I mean,

689
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: if he's if he's got blood coming out of his

690
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: neck and he hauls back to throw the knife, I

691
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: would expect it to be like a rain bird of

692
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: blood on the side of his house. Interesting blood spatter.

693
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: And again we and as we were kind of talking about,

694
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 1: like these are these are wounds that are going to

695
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: bleed out fast, very fast. Yeah. And actually from the

696
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: Michael Ferrank's analysis that I read a sentence before he

697
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: talks about the but the blood spatter, and he said

698
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: that it appears to him that the blood spatter is

699
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: just one track. In other words, if he'd gone outside

700
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: disupposed to them, I've gone back inside, then there would

701
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: have been a track out. It should have been twice

702
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: as much blood. Yeah, that would have been two trails

703
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: of blood, there was only one, which indicates not that

704
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: he came out and went back in, but instead that

705
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: he was stabbed outside and then went inside. So maybe

706
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: he committed suicide outside he's dabbed himself repeatedly with a knife,

707
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: and then through the knife away, and then one inside dead,

708
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: bolted the door and expired. Okay, that's yeah, I mean

709
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: as as I will just say, that's the dumbest thing

710
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: I've ever heard. It's a little silly, it's super dumb.

711
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean I would I don't know

712
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: if it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I've heard

713
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: some pretty dumb things, but I would say it's to

714
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: dumbest things I've ever heard. Well, okay, top fifty maybe, Yeah,

715
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: I know, so it's not It doesn't really pass the

716
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: smell test with me either. I don't know. I mean,

717
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: you know, theoretically, if he stabbed himself in front of

718
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: his apartment building, ran inside through the knife, wayne ran inside,

719
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: and if the police didn't search the immediate area, which

720
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: you would kind of expect him to do, and they

721
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 1: said they did, uh yeah, so it doesn't make any sense. Also,

722
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: there was no suicide. Note although it's not a requirement,

723
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,479
Speaker 1: it's not really required. I mean there usually is, but yeah,

724
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: it's not required. Well so here's one. Yeah, it's really rare.

725
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: I think I'm pretty sure it's super rare for somebody

726
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: who's about to commit suicide to make themselves a meal,

727
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: particularly one of rice and peas. I don't know if

728
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: he was a vegan or not or whatever. If it

729
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: was going to be my last meal, it would be

730
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: something better than that. Yeah, and you would probably finish it. So,

731
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's one of the things that

732
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: I saw while we were doing the research is like

733
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 1: a number of people brought up and they said, it's

734
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: really hard for me to believe it's a suicide because

735
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 1: he I mean, he made himself a meal, he ate

736
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: and then stabbed himself. Like why why, that's a good question.

737
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: Why why I go surfing a dating site? You know,

738
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: the whole the whole idea behind surfing dating sites is

739
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 1: there's no future plan that. Yeah, there's no somebody's absolutely

740
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: no point in wasting that time, you know, if you're

741
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: going to kill yourself. And of course his family and

742
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: friends don't like to suicide. Terry by that you guys

743
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: probably are aware and raised enough of a stink of

744
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: course that we talked about the French investigation, the lp

745
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: D investigation, and the French like, uh, they issued like

746
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: a two thousand page report at that It was like

747
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: it was massive. It was massive, and they were like

748
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: pretty unequivocal that yes, it was murder. Uh. And they

749
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: did find one interesting piece of evidence that the SFPD

750
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: somehow missed, I guess was that who's watch was was

751
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: I guess torn off his wrist and laying under his

752
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: body when they found it. Yeah, and they found some

753
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: a set of DNA at it that did not belong

754
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 1: to him, which is interesting. Yeah, I don't actually think

755
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 1: that's as necessarily damning as a lot of was out

756
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: at the bar. He was probably you know, you you

757
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: have contact with people. And how much DNA was it?

758
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: Was it just a little spot of it? Was it

759
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: smeared and sber And that's how they got it, Like

760
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: I had no idea how how? And that's that's the

761
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 1: whole thing is Yeah, I mean you can get DNA

762
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: from all kinds of place, I guess for me, And

763
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 1: the end though, it's the fact that his watch was

764
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: off of him under his body. It's less. I mean, yes,

765
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: the DNA is interesting. It should have presented the San

766
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: Francisco Police Department with a reasonable doubt to not think

767
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: that it was suicide. But the fact that it was

768
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: not even on him anymore, but it was under his

769
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 1: body is like, why would that not sign up a

770
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: red flag for you? Yeah, I could. I can see

771
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: something like, you know, raising her arm is in a

772
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: defensive way to ward off blows. And maybe the the

773
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: watch gets damaged, maybe you get somebody's DNA, but a

774
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 1: very at least gets damaged and sort of at least

775
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: partially torn off, that kind of thing. But but I

776
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: I can okay, I'm I can't believe. I'm gonna kind

777
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: of step up and defend the SFPD a teeny bit

778
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,959
Speaker 1: here and say that it is just as likely that

779
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: the watch was broken prior to that, and he had

780
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: set it down, and in his stumbling flailing through his apartment,

781
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 1: he knocked it up because his apartment was in shambles.

782
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: He knocks it off of something, it falls on the ground,

783
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: and then he, to make the mystery deeper, intentionally falls

784
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 1: upon it. And that part is it is me being

785
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: a jerk, But he may literally have knocked it on

786
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: the ground and then fallen on it and it just

787
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: happened to be that. Again, they're like, well, obviously these

788
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: two things were originally together when we don't really know that.

789
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: It's a good point, is I could I could picture

790
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 1: it being like sitting on the edge of the shelf,

791
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: he's stumbling around, he goes to grab the edge of

792
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: the shelf and hera to catch himself. Yeah yeah, so,

793
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: I mean, who knows. It's really hard that the watch

794
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 1: is not doesn't really all. I think we're all in

795
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: agreement that, you know, the suicide things just suicide thing

796
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 1: doesn't really fly. Yeah, so that leaves murder. I don't know,

797
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:40,439
Speaker 1: I'd like murder better and suicide murder. Yeah, yeah, it's

798
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: it's fun stuff. Well, the the indicate, as I think

799
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: I said, the crime scene evance kind of indicates the

800
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 1: stabbing took place outside the environment, and he went inside

801
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: to get away from his attacker. And I can't say

802
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: it's tea he didn't call nine one one, but I

803
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: don't think it would have made a difference. Frankly, as

804
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 1: fast as he was bleeding, oh yeah, yeah, it was.

805
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: I'm afraid that he didn't have enough time. No, he

806
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: was doomed, unfortunately, poor guy. But so the question, if

807
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 1: it is murder, what was the motivation? Who killed him

808
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: and why? All of his friends said that who had

809
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: no enemies who would want to kill him? But obviously

810
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: that's not quite true. Right, Well, let's go through some

811
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: theories about possible motivations. Okay, first off, robbery murder. What

812
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 1: do you guys think about that one? So flesh that

813
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: out for me. What do you let me let me

814
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: hear what you think robbery murder means for this case. Yeah,

815
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: somebody goes to rob him and you know, maybe he

816
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: puts up a little bit of a fight and he

817
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: gets stabbed and the attacker runs away. The problem, one

818
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: of the problems I have with this, of course, is

819
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: that you know, whoever it was, the robber didn't take

820
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: his wallet or money or anything. So the robber would

821
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: have to have camped to his door and knocked on

822
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: his door at two thirty or two forty in the

823
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: morning exactly and deciding that I'm going to rob the

824
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: person that lives in this house. Yeah, that's the problem

825
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 1: with robbery murder is that he wasn't just walking down

826
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 1: the street, he was actually inside and they came outside.

827
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: They don Can you, um, just for the sake of it,

828
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: can you tell me how it is that we know

829
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: that he was inside and one outside analysis is yeah,

830
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: I mean they did you know that he was inside

831
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: and came outside. We know that the murder happened, or

832
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: we think the murder probably happened outside, right, But how

833
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: do we know that he was inside and came outside. Well,

834
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: the evidence is apparently because there was food on the

835
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 1: countertop and fear that he had made himself a meal. Uh,

836
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: And also apparently there was evidence said he was on

837
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: his computer for about maybe half an hour before we

838
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: get murdered. I'm willing to accept the computer thing, right,

839
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 1: But I guess for me there is a big question.

840
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: And I know I said this to disprove the suicide theory,

841
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: but there's no way to know. I mean, yeah, he

842
00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: could have made it, you know, from lunch, or he

843
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 1: could made it as a snack before he went to

844
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: meet for happy hours. Somebody may have said, Huh, this

845
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: guy is dead. There's food. Touch it is it warm?

846
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 1: If it was warm when the cops got there, he

847
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 1: would have had to have been murdered very recently because

848
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 1: food gets called. Oh wait, no, they didn't come till

849
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:21,439
Speaker 1: eight four years Okay, never mind, I apologize. I also

850
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: had he also had some of that food in his

851
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: stomach still undigested if he didn't, like, I don't know

852
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: if he went on his date and then went home

853
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 1: and then went out to meet his buddies, or if

854
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,439
Speaker 1: he just went straight over to so they don't really

855
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: give a good time frame of And the food was

856
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: pretty undigested in his stomach, so he must have been

857
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: murdered recently after. I think that was the main reason

858
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: the computer history is undeniable. Yeah, again, I'm willing to

859
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 1: accept that. But the food one has always been like,

860
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: I don't really understand why they found some of his gullet. Okay,

861
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 1: apparently they look okay, well, they look at the inners. Well,

862
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: one would assume they would have also done a comprehensive

863
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: search of the area for or a knife point. So

864
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 1: at this point I'm not willing to assume anything. Yeah, so,

865
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, call me crazy, but but I agree.

866
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: I think a random robbery murder is probably not the

867
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: right now, No, probably not one. This maybe the tiny

868
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: bit more likely is that he came outside. Maybe he

869
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: heard something interrupted a crime in progress said they heard

870
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: several commotions. Yeah, so maybe heard the same first initial

871
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: commotion and that's what drew him outside. Yeah maybe maybe so.

872
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: Did he have a motorcycle or a car or anything.

873
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: He did have a motorcycle, Yeah, And I don't know

874
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: where he had it parked on the street presumably. I

875
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 1: don't know where he would have put it. I mean,

876
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: I guess you had it on the sidewalk in front

877
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 1: of us. Apart, well, you can in cities, even in Portland,

878
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: you can rent you know, spots and parking lots and

879
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: stuff like that for a long term for storage if

880
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: you don't want to park it on the street. Street

881
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: parking it is just so out of control and so

882
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 1: difficult in that city that that's why a lot of people,

883
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: you know, render a spot, you know, downtown or wherever

884
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: where they keep their vehicle. But with the motorcycle is

885
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 1: usually easier. I guess that's why I was asking those

886
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: because it sounded like that, you know, he could totally

887
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 1: could have been somebody messing with his motorcycle and he

888
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 1: came down and was like, what are you doing? And yeah,

889
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,919
Speaker 1: and then ran away. And at that point, you don't

890
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: steal the motorcycle because you get stuck with the motorcycle.

891
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 1: Motorcycle because if you look at the security camera. One

892
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 1: of the things that I watched was the time progression

893
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: of the security camera. And there's a big old car

894
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 1: sitting across the street. But there's no motorcycle there that

895
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: I ever saw. It could be close down. Maybe that

896
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: big old car belong to I don't think that. And

897
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: for just for my own sake, you didn't smoke or anything, right,

898
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: He wasn't impossible that he went out for a cigarette,

899
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: you know. I don't know. It's a good point. I

900
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 1: think I've seen pictures of him with a cigret his

901
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: hand for some reason. I want to say that, but

902
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 1: I can't. I'm not positive about it. I can't remember.

903
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: But I mean a lot of pictures that There's a

904
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: website that his friends have out in the way and

905
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 1: you can see it. We'll post a link to it. Actually,

906
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: there's a ton of pictures of him. Unfortunately, some of

907
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: the pictures he's wearing a speedo. Just be warned, or

908
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: unfortunately for some of us. Yeah, but yeah, so you

909
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: might be smoking a cigy one of those other corps.

910
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:30,959
Speaker 1: You know, you go boozing with your friends. That doesn't

911
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 1: mean you're a regular smoke I don't know, but yeah,

912
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: that's possibly you just went outside to smoke a cigarette

913
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: or something like that, and you know, and just ran

914
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,760
Speaker 1: into the wrong psycho boy out there and got stabbed. Yeah,

915
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: it's good. And it's also the possibility of random murder.

916
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: But that's kind of that kind of right is right

917
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: there with he interrupted a crime kind of the same thing,

918
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 1: went outside and somebody was in a bad mood. I

919
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 1: guess I have a sharp knife. One thing that you

920
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: I don't see on this list is um gang murder.

921
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: San Francisco is pretty hotbed, especially in two thousand and seven.

922
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: There's a lot of gang activity there. Um, and I

923
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 1: know that there are some gangs where their initiation as

924
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: you go stab someone, and so it's smaller. Is that

925
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 1: the urban legend? No, I think it's true ur legends,

926
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 1: the one where they drive around with their headlights. I've

927
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: heard this and I've never I've never seen anything that

928
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 1: definitively said, yeah, we have reports of this and we've

929
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: confirmed this is actually it and it's not just an

930
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: urban legends. And that's why I'm asking because I've always presumed,

931
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: based on something I can't remember, that that was total crap. Oh,

932
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: I've never heard that it was crap. I've always thought

933
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: it was true. But I mean, so it's not on

934
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: it's not impossible impossible. It's not impossible that it was

935
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: a technically a random act of violence, but connected random selection,

936
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 1: a murder of you know, a gang related murder or

937
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: some kind. I'll go for that. Um. Again, it doesn't

938
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 1: explain necessarily why he was outside, So that's the tricky part. Yeah,

939
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: I mean, somebody lured him outside or just be like again,

940
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: he went outside to smoke a cigarette or for some

941
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: reason or another and then see, yeah, so I was that.

942
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:19,800
Speaker 1: You know, there's always an where somebody rings your doorbell

943
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: and you come out there's a paper bag on fire.

944
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: Just an innocent paper bag, an innocent paper bag. You're

945
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: not innocent, don't Okay, we're gonna rule out the paper bag.

946
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,240
Speaker 1: They didn't find any of that stuff on the porch.

947
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: Another possibility is mistaken identify. I like this one. Yeah,

948
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: I mean not, I like a real theory, but I

949
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: do like it. Well, yeah, maybe somebody saw him or

950
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: and thought he was this man. You guys know this man.

951
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: Hopefully you all know who this man is, right, you

952
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: dream of this man? Exactly? Do you ever dream this man? Yes, exactly.

953
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: You do a google on it, just this in and

954
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 1: you'll see a picture and then go look at that

955
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 1: the drawing of this man, and look at the pictures

956
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: of Oog and do you see a resemblance. There's some resemblance.

957
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: There's probably some resemblance between this man and me. Well

958
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: that's I'm not to like jump ahead or burst the

959
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: bubble or whatever, but that's the point of this man.

960
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 1: Uh and he I mean it was a it was

961
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 1: a composite sketch created by a psychology sociologist as a

962
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: psychic sociology psychological test or experiment or something like that.

963
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a whole like point of this man.

964
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: We've since found out, but early days of this man,

965
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,479
Speaker 1: I mean, I was totally wrapped up in the whole

966
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 1: idea of he's creepy. It's kind of creepy. I can

967
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: see super creepy. If somebody saw and I'd say, you've seen,

968
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: you've been reading about this man. You see you So

969
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,800
Speaker 1: even though you might think the resemblance is not totally exact.

970
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 1: They do bear. Besides just the incredibly bushy eyebrows they bear,

971
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 1: they do have a few other features in who had

972
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 1: I mean similar faith shape. Yeah, yeah, no, definitely kind

973
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: of similar kind of hairline. I mean, I could totally

974
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: see where somebody, oh my god, it's this man in

975
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: real life. Oh my god, I must kill him. He's

976
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 1: been haunting my dreams and I'm gonna get it. And

977
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 1: he's been haunting everyone's dreams, not just mine. Everyone is

978
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: doing Society of Favor. Yeah, it's yeah, exactly, and seriously,

979
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: I mean, and we all know it was basically a hoax,

980
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,479
Speaker 1: but you know, I mean yeah, I mean, I don't

981
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 1: know that it was actually actually out there by two

982
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: thousand seven. Two thousand and six was when it was

983
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: two thousand six, so supposedly when it really started. When

984
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: it started, so it's it's conceivable somebody saw who thought,

985
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 1: oh my god, it's this mandle of two thousand seven

986
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: when dies, So it's had plenty of time to spread

987
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 1: around the internet. Yeah, and so this guy is like,

988
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 1: oh my god, I've never dreamed of this man. Now

989
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 1: I've just seen him in real life. Now, now he's

990
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 1: going to be in my dreams, and God knows what

991
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: he's gonna be doing to kill him, or I've dreamed

992
00:50:57,719 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: of him a lot, and or maybe there's that too.

993
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 1: I think the whole idea that all these people were

994
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: dreaming of this guy was was the Hox part. I

995
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,839
Speaker 1: don't think anybody really was. I never dreamed of. I mean,

996
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 1: this man is a kind of a mystery enigma in

997
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: and of itself. It's not really unsolved anymore. But we

998
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 1: could do an entire episode on it, so I won't

999
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,320
Speaker 1: delve too far into it. But that would be as

1000
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: it would, yeah, except for it solved. But I mean

1001
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 1: it's not unheard of that people kill. I mean, there

1002
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 1: was that murder the two girls who killed that other

1003
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 1: girl because Slenderman told them to. Yeah, you know, I mean,

1004
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 1: mental illness is a thing, and when you get wrapped

1005
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: up in certain internet memes, I mean it's not. There

1006
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: are a lot of problems with this theory, certainly, but

1007
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: for some reason, I believe it more than I believe suicide.

1008
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: Which I know it's crazy, but I believe it more

1009
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 1: than I believe suicide at this point. So I don't know,

1010
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:52,800
Speaker 1: So let's go. Yeah, so we'll sort of give that

1011
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 1: a maybe. Let's see what other theories do we have.

1012
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 1: He was murdered by a psycho check that he met online.

1013
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it's possible as possible some Glenn close type woman,

1014
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: maybe attraction yet maybe the one that he had met

1015
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 1: earlier that that evening. It could have been one that

1016
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 1: he met earlier, a month earlier, who had been tracking

1017
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 1: him and it finally decided that to show her love,

1018
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 1: she had to stab him or felt scorned because she

1019
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,399
Speaker 1: thought they had something special and more and then caught

1020
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: him out. I caught him out. It was nesting stab

1021
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 1: stabs because to her they were in a relationship. To him,

1022
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: it was really nice that one time, and thank you

1023
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: very much. I gotta go. Yeah, that happens, huh, it does?

1024
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:40,800
Speaker 1: It does. Matter of fact. The only the only downside

1025
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 1: of the psycho check thing is the whole statu I

1026
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 1: think about stabbing somebody is it's not easy? Well, I mean,

1027
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 1: you gotta push the knife in and then you gotta

1028
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 1: pull it back out again. It's not easy. It's as

1029
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: easy as it looks at the movies. Now, okay, let

1030
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: me ask you a question, because I didn't ever see

1031
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 1: this in the reading Okay, do we know generally what

1032
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 1: they think the size and the length of this knife was? Okay,

1033
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 1: I never, I never. I'm sure that the mmy is

1034
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 1: probably medical examiner probably was able to come up with

1035
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: a good estimate. Okay, But if we think about this,

1036
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 1: let's just say your average steak knife, not serrated, but

1037
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,720
Speaker 1: just a steak knife that's a relatively thin and narrow

1038
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: blade and that's not too hard versus you know, the

1039
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,399
Speaker 1: big kitchen knife. You have this like two inches long

1040
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 1: at the back and about a foot long. That would

1041
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 1: I could see being difficult to getting it in and

1042
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 1: then it wedging against body parts and bones and being

1043
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: harder to pull it right, I mean, your body collapses

1044
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,879
Speaker 1: on in and sucks that thing in, right. And that's

1045
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: why I was asking if it was Originally I was

1046
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 1: wondering about it is. Do we know if it was

1047
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 1: a single or a double sided blade? Because if it's,

1048
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 1: if it's sharp on both sides, that makes it much

1049
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 1: easier because you can literally cut it back out as

1050
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: you pull. Yeah. And sorry, look on your face and

1051
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: you didn't like I did not like that. I don't

1052
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 1: know why I didn't like that. I just didn't. Yeah,

1053
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it maybe it wasn't a huge

1054
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 1: knife because it did go into as long. But I'm

1055
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 1: trying to trying to measure with my fingers here the

1056
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 1: distance thing my collar bone and my long it's not

1057
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: I guess it's not that far. It could have been

1058
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: maybe a six inch. Yeah, that's a big knife. It's

1059
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 1: not a small knife either. It's not like a pairing knife.

1060
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 1: It's not a steake knife, right, I mean, that's like

1061
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:34,399
Speaker 1: a kitchen knife. At least. My stake nifere about six

1062
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: inches long. Yeah, that depends on the steake knife too.

1063
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 1: Not a flimsy stea knife, I hope, because that wouldn't

1064
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: survive even probably the first or second stabbing. But yeah,

1065
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 1: but I mean I have steake knives. They are stout

1066
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: enough to stab people three times, no doubt. If you

1067
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:51,400
Speaker 1: watched them in Bleach. No I will, I mean, but

1068
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: it's necessary, I will do that. But so that's why

1069
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 1: that's the only downside of the whole psycho check is

1070
00:54:57,800 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: just I don't I think it takes more strength. But

1071
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:01,720
Speaker 1: there our women out there, especially if you're a psycho.

1072
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: You know, as we all know from the movies, psychos

1073
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 1: are super strong. It comes with yea, yeah, exactly. It

1074
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: just seems to super strength. The doctor looks at you

1075
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: and says your psycho and also your psycho strength. Yeah,

1076
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:22,280
Speaker 1: you're superhero. Sorry, by the way, for all those psycho

1077
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 1: chick listeners, I apologize in advance. Please no kill I

1078
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 1: that was actually that was actually Steve's idea. Yea. So

1079
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 1: there's one more theory. I like this one murdered by

1080
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: a jealous boyfriend your husband. This has a lot of it, really,

1081
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 1: does you know, Because let's face it, I mean he

1082
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 1: was like as as his friend said, he didn't care

1083
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,239
Speaker 1: they had a boyfriend or a husband. He didn't care.

1084
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 1: And really that that takes care of the whole problem

1085
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: was with upper body strength and pulling the knife out

1086
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 1: and everything like that some of the problem, some of

1087
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: the problem. Actually, well not every guy is super strong,

1088
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 1: let's face it. And yes, I'm thinking that's the best motivation.

1089
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: Say that that that's the person that has the motive. Yeah,

1090
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 1: I mean it's a more common motive than being a

1091
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 1: psycho and going bersik and having a glend close kind

1092
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 1: of thing where you obsessed with somebody, but also like

1093
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,800
Speaker 1: more than like random, right, it's more more likely than random.

1094
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 1: The only problem I have with this is that it

1095
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 1: like a normal dude who flies off the handle and

1096
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: gets mad and goes stab somebody to death and then

1097
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: never talks about it ever again and lives a totally

1098
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 1: normal life. Like that is insane. That's crazy. You don't

1099
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 1: know that that happened. He might have Actually, he might

1100
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: have actually gone off and gotten sown in jail for

1101
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 1: that's true. I mean, I guess he could have. Yeah,

1102
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 1: but you know, and this is one of the reasons

1103
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 1: criminals get caught is they're stupid and they talk. But

1104
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 1: maybe this guy was actually smart enough to just keep

1105
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,319
Speaker 1: his freaking mouth shut and never say a word about

1106
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 1: it to anybody. There are a lot of unsolved crimes

1107
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 1: because there are a lot of perpetrators who do that.

1108
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: They do it and they tell nobody. Smart Yeah, alternately, right,

1109
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: I mean, there is the possibility he's got angry issues, right,

1110
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 1: I mean, clearly has some angry issues, gets tossed in

1111
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 1: jail for assault, and then, you know, a couple of

1112
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 1: years later, gets released because guess what, assault ain't murder.

1113
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 1: So I mean, you know, and he realizes, oh, yeah,

1114
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: I should probably not tell anyone about that smart move. Yeah.

1115
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 1: I don't know, but yeah, it's just Yeah. To me,

1116
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: it's it's just more common. I think it's a it's

1117
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: a better motive to me, because I mean, psych people

1118
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: are nuts enough to just stab somebody because they're obsessive.

1119
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 1: They're not nearly as common as people who are willing

1120
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 1: to stab somebody because they had sex with their wife. Yeah.

1121
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: I mean that's you know, that's a good motive from murder.

1122
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: There's there's been a lot of killing over that. I

1123
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 1: mean it's a frequent one. I don't know that it's

1124
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 1: a good one. Frequent, that's what I mean. I don't

1125
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 1: mean good is in it's a more motivating, it's just

1126
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 1: a lot more common. Yeah. So what do we got here? So, okay,

1127
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: we got suicide, We've got he thought he was this man.

1128
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 1: We've got the jealous husband. I'm gonna go with jealous husband.

1129
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 1: What do you guys? Yeah, I mean, just for the

1130
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 1: sake of because I like it. I like that it's

1131
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 1: this man, this man. But I think I think probably

1132
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 1: jealous husband or boyfriend is the most likely. Does I

1133
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 1: to a degree? I kind of like the idea of

1134
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 1: the interrupted crime because that would also explain, because that

1135
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 1: the neighbor says there were two or three loud bangs.

1136
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 1: So if there's a crime going on or something's happening outside,

1137
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 1: that to me is what would draw him out. Because

1138
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 1: he's got a peep hole on the door, and if

1139
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 1: there was some angry guy banging on the door and screaming,

1140
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 1: and I go to the peephole and I'm like, huh,

1141
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 1: that's a really angry dude. I'm not opening the door.

1142
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 1: You know, my be that you actually carried the murder

1143
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:04,680
Speaker 1: weapon to this, to the murder scene. He might have

1144
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 1: having seen this guy out there, and I said, well,

1145
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 1: I can't avoid this, but I'm gonna grab a knife

1146
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 1: just in case. I think that that's a pretty to avoid.

1147
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 1: You wait for the guy to bang on your door

1148
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 1: for five minutes, and then you call the cops. You

1149
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 1: could do that too, you know, like he didn't go with,

1150
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 1: you wouldn't have had to go out there. But I

1151
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 1: feel like he might have been curious enough to see

1152
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 1: what was going on and made the interruption. There are

1153
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: definitely those personality types though, that are like, oh yeah, okay,

1154
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 1: bring it true, I got this knife in my hand,

1155
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 1: you're on my property. I'm going to call the cops

1156
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 1: on you. Bring it, shut up, get out of here. Yeah,

1157
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 1: I slept with your wife. What oh oops, you have

1158
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 1: that knife and you're stabbing me. This was a bad

1159
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 1: idea according to playing right. I mean that for me

1160
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 1: to get in that mindset is not so hard. I

1161
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 1: can see how he could have talked to himself up

1162
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 1: into that. I agree it was dumb, but yeah, I'm

1163
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 1: sure he regretted it. We didn't have longer regretted, So

1164
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 1: that's the that's the silverlining of that. Yeah, but he

1165
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 1: might have actually taken he might have actually gone out

1166
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 1: there with an eye to confront this totally, except that

1167
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 1: I don't know that we know that any knives were

1168
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 1: missing that anybody knows that. But then again that's hard

1169
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 1: to track down. Nobody knows how many knives are in

1170
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: my house never mind. Yeah, I don't know either. You

1171
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 1: lose n eyes from sets and and actually you can

1172
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 1: buy a nize individually too, like you know, so yeah,

1173
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 1: we have a lot in my house. Yeah. Hey, well, okay,

1174
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 1: another mysteries solved. And sorry Chippy, we left you out again.

1175
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:36,280
Speaker 1: We'll work you in next time, I promise. But time

1176
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 1: for a little housekeeping here. You probably want to know

1177
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 1: if we have a website, while we do have a website. Finally,

1178
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 1: it's called Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. Uh. If you

1179
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: want to contact us to tell us how much you

1180
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 1: love us whatever, we have one of those email things too.

1181
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 1: It's called Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. And

1182
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 1: of course you can find us besides a website. You

1183
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 1: can find stuff out there, like our episodes which you

1184
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 1: can listen to, uh, and what else we've got that

1185
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 1: new list also of all our episode list makes it

1186
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 1: easy to find past episodes. Uh. And also we're on iTunes,

1187
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 1: among other places where you can subscribe. You can download

1188
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 1: our stuff. You can rate us, review us proferably a

1189
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 1: good review at a high rating. We'd like those a

1190
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 1: lot better. And go upload a lot of five star

1191
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 1: reviews too. We like that too, yea, yeah, definitely do that. Uh.

1192
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 1: Streaming we are everywhere also Google Play besides everywhere you

1193
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:37,919
Speaker 1: can stream us. Google Play not included in everywhere. Yeah,

1194
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 1: exactly what else? Social media? We are on the Facebook

1195
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 1: where we have a group in a page. So joined

1196
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 1: the group and what else they want to do? Oh? Yeah,

1197
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 1: I like the page, okay, and then just you you know,

1198
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 1: like like sort of you can sort of lyric and

1199
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 1: read stuff or you can post stuff or whatever, you know,

1200
01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:00,120
Speaker 1: have conversations and and stuff like that. Uh, and us

1201
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:03,320
Speaker 1: how much you love us? Yeah. We're also on Twitter

1202
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 1: where we are thinking sideways, not thinking but thinking no

1203
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 1: g and we have a subreddit thinking sideways and what

1204
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 1: else merchandise you want to know, working by cool merch Uh.

1205
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 1: So we're on Zazzle and red Bubble where we have

1206
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 1: what shirts, mugs, stickers for those on the website. Yeah,

1207
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:23,160
Speaker 1: I think we've got a night light, you know, but

1208
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 1: you probably will find the shirts and mugs when we're useful.

1209
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 1: And that's about it, I think. Yeah, yeah, anything else,

1210
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 1: that's all I got. Yeah, alright, yeah, and obviously if

1211
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 1: you are, if you're a goose killer, you know, I

1212
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 1: know a way to make a hunter grand Just let

1213
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 1: me know and I will split it with you. Okay,

1214
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 1: all right til next week, guys, step Snap Snap