1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: There's many, many ways in which these emotions show up, 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: and one of the things that psychologists talk about is 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:11,479 Speaker 1: this phenomena that they call disenfranchised grief, which basically means 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: that there's a thousand and one versions of these griefs 5 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: and these separations that are not socially acceptable to mourn, 6 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: and so we don't mourn them. We don't even name 7 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: them to ourselves as something that requires mourning because we 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: don't think of them that way. Hey, everyone, welcome back 9 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. 10 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: Thanks to each and every single one of you that 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 1: come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now 12 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: you know how much I like research, how much I 13 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: like psychology, how much I like the mind, and how 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: much I love learning from people who deeply take the 15 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: time to understand complexities, challenges, life situations that we all 16 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,959 Speaker 1: go through and sometimes we don't really have deep insight 17 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: on some of the biggest emotional challenges of the journey 18 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 1: of our lives. And today's guest is someone who does 19 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: just that. And I've been wanting to have her on 20 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: the podcast for a long long time, probably a couple 21 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: of years in the making, and we're finally doing that, 22 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: So I'm very very grateful today. Our guest is none 23 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: other than Susan Caine, the author of Quiet, The Power 24 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking, which 25 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: spent seven years on the New York Times Best seller 26 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: list and has been translated into over forty languages. It 27 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: was named the number one best book of the year 28 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: by Fast Company, which also named her as one of 29 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: its most creative people in business. Her writing has appeared 30 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: in The New York Times, The Atlantic, The Wall Street Journal, 31 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: and many other publications, and her record Smashing Ted Talk, 32 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: which was where I first discovered her, has been viewed 33 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: over thirty million times on ted dot com and YouTube combined, 34 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: and was named by Bill Gates as one of his 35 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: all time favorite talks. Now. Her most recent book that 36 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: I highly recommend you go in order right away, and 37 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: you're going to want to, especially during and after this conversation, 38 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: is called Bitter Sweet, How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole. Please, 39 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: welcome to the show, Susan Kine. Susan, thank you so 40 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: much for being here. Really grateful, really excited to learn 41 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: from you today. And these are actually my favorite conversations 42 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 1: on the podcast sitting with someone who has studied and 43 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: deeply absorbed a theme, a transition of life that is 44 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: often not spoken about enough. So thank you so much, Well, 45 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Jay for being here. It's just 46 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: such a joy. I've been a fan for a long time. Well, 47 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: the feeling is very mutual. Let's dive right in because 48 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: I think you know the work that you've done up 49 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: until now on being an introvert and being quiet and 50 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: stillness is really powerful. But this new book, Bitter Sweet. 51 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: What I find really interesting about this is I find 52 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: that as humans, and I'm speaking on my behalf and 53 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: I think a lot of my community feels this way 54 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 1: as well, is that we've never been taught about what 55 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: to do with pain. We've never really been taught about 56 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: what to do with the feeling of loss or sorrow. 57 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: We don't really know what to do with it. And 58 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: the generic advice we get with is well, it will 59 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 1: heal with time or it will go away naturally. And 60 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you, like, where did you start 61 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: on this journey of figuring out what to do with pain? 62 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: And when you started that journey what surprised you the most? 63 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: I had had experiences in my own life, and the 64 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: generations of my family before I even entered into this world, 65 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: had had experiences in their lives that I think kind 66 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: of set me up to be thinking about these kinds 67 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: of questions. This particular journey really started for me when 68 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: I noticed that I was drawn. I mean, I love 69 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: music of all kinds. I love happy, upbeat dance music, 70 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: but I found myself drawn especially to minor key kind 71 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: of longing, yearning music. And I started to notice that 72 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: that music had this effect on me that wasn't about sadness. 73 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: The only word I could use is love. Actually, I mean, look, 74 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: the music would give me a sense of uplift, and 75 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: I realized that the uplift came from love, and it 76 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: was because the musician composing music like that, they are 77 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: expressing the pain that all humans experience at one time 78 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: or another, and they're basically saying, we all feel this 79 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: some of the time. And I'm letting you know that I, 80 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: the musician, it felt that way. Everybody else listening to 81 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: this has felt this way, and the music is the 82 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: I'm going to take this extra step of turning the 83 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: pain into something beautiful, which I think is kind of 84 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: the call that we all have in this world. And 85 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: so anyway, it was really trying to understand what that 86 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: music was all about that got me started on this 87 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: inquiry of what bitter sweetness is. And I started looking 88 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: at all these different traditions from all over the world 89 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: and across time, and they're all telling us that the 90 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,679 Speaker 1: willingness to accept the fact that life is a mix 91 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: of joy and sorrow is one of the great bonding 92 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: agents we have because we all are humans who are 93 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: in that same state of being. So it's a great 94 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: bonding agent, and it's the source of our creativity and 95 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 1: it's the source of transcendence. But it all started, It 96 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: all started with music, and it probably started before that, 97 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 1: you know, with various family experiences that had primed me 98 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: to be thinking in these ways. And do you believe 99 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: that it's aw avoidance of that idea that life is 100 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: both bitter sweet and that life is both joy and sorrow? 101 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: Is it the avoidance that causes us more pain, or 102 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: causes us more stress and pressure? And it is that's 103 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: why we need acceptance? Is acceptance the right word? How 104 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: are you constructing that door process for us? I would 105 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: say acceptance is the first step. We do have to 106 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: accept and acceptance by the way, it looks like many 107 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: different things. You know, it doesn't only look like kind 108 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: of sitting calmly and letting things wash over us. It's 109 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: also understanding that some of the time we're going to 110 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: feel overwhelmed or angry or whatever it is in response 111 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: to anversive event and being okay with all of those 112 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: kind of chaotic emotions that come up. But all of 113 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: that that's only step one. There's a guy named Stephen 114 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: Hayes who's developed this thing called acceptance and Commitment therapy, 115 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: and it breaks down this process acceptance of stage one. 116 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: Commitment is stage two. What commitment looks like is it's 117 00:06:55,080 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: identifying the source of your pain and realize that the 118 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: only reason you feel pain in the first place is 119 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: because something has happened in an area that matters to you. 120 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: So to use it as a kind of signpost of 121 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: this is what matters to me. You know, maybe just 122 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: had a breakup or a bereavement or whatever it is, 123 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: and you realize, wow, like this this thing that I've lost, 124 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: this matters. So now you want to commit yourself to 125 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: that area of life because now you know how much 126 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: it matters. And we see people doing this in different 127 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: ways all the time, they're just not always aware of it. 128 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: Just as examples, after nine to eleven, suddenly in the 129 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: United States there was a huge rush of people signing 130 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: up to become firefighters, and in the wake of the pandemic, 131 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: there's a rush of people signing up for medical school 132 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: and for nursing school. And you could say both of 133 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: these decisions they're they're kind of counterintuitive. It's kind of 134 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: like people are signing up to be, you know, closer 135 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: to the source of the thing that has brought us pain. 136 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: But what humans want to do ultimately is humans want 137 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: to create meaning. So like if we can accept but 138 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: then also take that extra step of making meaning out 139 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: of the thing that has caused us pain, or making 140 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: a kind of human connection out of it, that's really 141 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: what brings us closer to wholeness. That's such a beautiful answer, 142 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: and I love hearing that from you, especially because you've 143 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: spent so much time in this space. If it's almost 144 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: like acceptance with meaning that turns into action, like some 145 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: sort of as you said, the examples of the firefighters 146 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: and the healthcare workers, of people opting to take action 147 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: because of some meaning that they've gained. I think often 148 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:49,599 Speaker 1: we're scared of transforming sorrow or loss or pain into 149 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: acceptance or meaning because it means we have to spend 150 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: more time with it, right, Like it's when you open 151 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: up the wound, you have to spend more time with 152 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: the wound, and so it's often easier. How do we 153 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: Is it courage that's needed to look at a painful area? 154 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: And I love what you said about ultimately, if something 155 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: caused you pain, it's because it matters to you. What 156 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: is required to take a closer look at what matters 157 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: to you that's caused you pain? Is it courage? Is 158 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: it curiosity? Like what is that? What have you seen 159 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 1: that gives people the resilience required? Or is it resilience 160 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: that's required to actually assess that? I mean, I suppose 161 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: it's all those things. But I think one of the 162 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: one of the biggest factors that we overlook all the 163 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: time is connection. There's no pain that exists that many 164 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: other people haven't been through, or that people who have 165 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: been through it could still gather around together. But you 166 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 1: know there's a reason for example, like with alcoholics, anonymous, 167 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: like what do you do people gather around together to 168 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: lift each other up. They don't do it by themselves. 169 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: Or I think of someone who I talked about or 170 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: who I quoted. Really in Bittersweet, she was describing the 171 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: funeral of her grandfather, and she was describing how she 172 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: had never before seen her father cry. It was her 173 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: father's father who had passed away, and she said, you know, 174 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: it was incredibly sad. And a group of friends gathered 175 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: together and they were like a barber shop chorus, and 176 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: they sang this beautiful tribute in honor of her grandfather, 177 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: and the tears were streaming down her father's face. And 178 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: she says what she remembers of that moment most was 179 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: actually not the pain. It was what she calls the 180 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: union between souls that happened at that moment. And there 181 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: is something about these painful moments that can open us 182 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: up to that union between souls, and I think we 183 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: need to look for that everywhere we can, and you 184 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: see it everywhere around you once you become aware of it. 185 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: This is one of the reasons that I think it's 186 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: such a problem that in our culture we don't like 187 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: to talk about stuff like this. We see it as 188 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: kind of distasteful or maybe a little bit weak or 189 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: something like that. But God knows we need more of 190 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: a union between souls. Right now, we have nothing but division. 191 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: This is actually one of the things that most opens 192 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: us up and most joins us. Yeah, that's such a 193 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: great reminder, and you're so right that we I feel 194 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: a lot of us, including myself. At times in my life, 195 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: I've had the feeling that no one understands me and 196 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: only I'm going through this like only I'm struggling. And 197 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: I think today if we take a look at it 198 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: through the angle of social media or the idea of yeah, 199 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 1: anything from Instagram, through the TikTok, through the Facebook, or 200 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: whatever it may be, and people are looking at that 201 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: going well, my life doesn't look like that. My life's 202 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: a lot worse than that. And that comparison or that 203 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: judgment constantly makes us feel like we're more own in 204 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: our experience of pain. How do is that unhealthy to 205 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: feel that our pain is unique? Or is it useful 206 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: to feel that your pain is unique to you? I'm 207 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: fascinated by the uniqueness of pain, especially when you're talking 208 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: about the idea that actually pain is what connects us. 209 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: But often our experience of pain is well, no no, no, 210 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: my pain's different, or sometimes it's my pain's worse than yours, 211 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: or sometimes people gain perspective by thinking what someone else 212 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: has it worse off? And so I'm intrigued by is 213 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: pain healthier to see it when you see it as 214 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: unique or when you see it as connecting? Oh, that's interesting. 215 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: I mean. So I would always say every single person's 216 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: life story is unique. And of course there are some 217 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: pains that are more difficult than other pains, for sure, 218 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 1: But yeah, at the end of the day, understanding the 219 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: connection is the most healing of all it really is. 220 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: There's there's a Japanese Buddhist poet who I talk about 221 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: in Bitter Sweet. His name is isa I Ssa. He's 222 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: one of the great famous poets of Japan, and he 223 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: had this life experience where he kept he married late, 224 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: and he and his wife kept giving birth to children 225 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: who didn't live. They would die like stillbirths. And then 226 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: and then finally they had this daughter, Sato, and she 227 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: was healthy and beautiful and beloved, and then she too, 228 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: at like the age of two or three, she dies 229 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: of smallpox. And he's utterly heartbroken. And he's also trained 230 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: as a Buddhist monk, and so he's trained like in 231 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: the idea of impermanence, you know, in the idea of 232 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: accepting impermanence, and so he writes this poem after his 233 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 1: baby's death. He writes this poem. He's basically saying, I 234 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: get this world of do is just a world of do, 235 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,599 Speaker 1: you know, meaning just dow drops. I get it. Everything's impermanent. 236 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: And then he says, but even so, but even so, 237 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: and he's basically saying, you know, like even I, who's 238 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 1: trained in impermanence, even I am going to say, this hurts, 239 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: you know, for my baby daughter to have died this way, 240 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: this really hurts. And you have to ask, like, well, 241 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: why are we why First of all, why did he 242 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: write that poem? And second, why are we reading it 243 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: two hundred years later? And the answer is that he 244 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: wrote it because he knows that everybody has trouble with 245 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: that idea of impermanence. No one fully accepts it. Everybody grieves, 246 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: And we read it two hundred years later because our 247 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: lives are completely different from his, and yet they're exactly 248 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: the same. We would grieve too in the exact same situation. 249 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: And two hundred years later, we'll still read it. And 250 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: that's one of the great sources of uplift that we have. 251 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: It's one of the great truths. You know, that we're 252 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: all in this kind of like amazing state of like 253 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: constant love and loss that together as humans. That is 254 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: that that's our situation, and we're in that together, and 255 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: there's something incredibly beautiful about that. That's why we listen 256 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: to music. It's one reason, one big reason we listen, 257 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: one big reason we consume art is because we're kind 258 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: of allowing our artists and musicians and theologians and everyone 259 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: else to tell us these truths on behalf of all 260 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: of us and join us together that way. Yeah, that 261 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: truly is I'm really glad I asked you that question 262 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: because hearing you deepen that understanding for us around what 263 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: we're looking for in that connection and transitioning to music. 264 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: I realized that a few years ago, when you know, 265 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: you're traveling all across the world and I know you 266 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: do too, and you're speaking, or you're doing events, or 267 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: you're meeting people, and you realize that everyone's playing the 268 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: same music in every single country often and I know 269 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: every country has its own traditional music as well. Of course, 270 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: which is beautiful, but I also find that often you 271 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: find that music just you know, crosses language, crosses boundaries, 272 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: across his barriers. But I think one of the interesting 273 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: that you that you bring up is that normally people 274 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: would think that we listen to happy music to feel 275 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: happy and sad music when we're sad. But you talk 276 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: about how sad music can transform into something beautiful that 277 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: can uplift someone and bring them closer to a feeling 278 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: of joy. Walk us through that concept. Yeah, I mean, 279 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: so we know this that like the music that reliably 280 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: gives people, you know, shivers and chills and goose bumps, 281 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: it's the it's the sad music. It's the sad slow music. 282 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: And people will tell researchers that when they listen to 283 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: sad music, they feel like connected to states of wonder 284 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: and awe and transcendence. And you know, sad music is 285 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: incredibly uplifting. It lifts the mood, it lifts the spirits. 286 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: I'm sorry I meant happy music. I'm not sure what 287 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: I just said, but anyway, but it's the sad music 288 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: that makes us feel like, you know, we're touching, touching 289 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: something higher. And I think this is because as humans 290 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: we all enter this world. It's it's like part of 291 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: our emotional DNA to feel that we belong in another 292 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: more perfect and more beautiful state. Um. You know, whether 293 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: you use religious terms to express that of like that 294 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: we belong with with the divine, or we belong in 295 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: the Garden of Eden or in Zion or Mecca or 296 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: whatever it is. There's this feeling of we belong somewhere 297 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: else and you know, the Wizard of Oz we belong 298 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 1: somewhere over the rainbow. That's just that's a state that 299 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: human beings feel on a fundamental level. Sad music minor 300 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: key music puts us in touch with this state. So 301 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: instead of making us feel sad, it's making us feel 302 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: connected with the more perfect and beautiful world to which 303 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: we feel we belong. And you know you're talking about 304 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: different cultures. You can see this music all across the world. 305 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: You know, there's like like in Portugal, in Brazil or 306 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: Portugal is the music of Fotto and Portugal and Brazil 307 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: they both have the idea of sodaje, you know, the 308 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 1: idea of the longing for like a lost love that 309 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: you may never have experienced in the first place, and 310 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: this is embodied in the music, and as I understand it, 311 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: in Hinduism, there's an idea of viraja, which is the 312 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: same idea of kind of like longing for a lost love, 313 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: and the idea there is that music. The legend has 314 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: it that music and poetry like began with that sense 315 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: of loss. And there's like a a tale of a 316 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: bird that is weeping because its lover was killed by 317 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: a hunter's bow, and and that moment of the bird's 318 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: weeping is said to be the start of all of 319 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,239 Speaker 1: all art and poetry. So there's something very deep in 320 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: us that feels these things but is uplifted by them 321 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 1: because we're together in that state of exile, and we're 322 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: together in that state of longing for a better world 323 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: that we're always reaching for. Hiring is challenging, especially right 324 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: now when you have so much on your plate. Luckily, 325 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: there's one place you can go where hiring is simple, 326 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 1: fast and smart, a place where growing businesses connect to 327 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: qualified candidates. That place is zipp recruiter dot com forward 328 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 1: slash on purpose. Zippracruter does the work for you. Zipp 329 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: Recruiter uses its powerful technology to find and match the 330 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: right candidates up with your job. 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To try zipp recruiter for free, 337 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: my listeners can go to zip recruiter dot com forward 338 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: slash on purpose that zip recruiter dot com, forward slash 339 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: n p U r p o se, zippercruter dot com 340 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: forward slash on purpose zippercruter the smartest way to hire. Yeah, 341 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: what is that? That's so interesting and I agree with 342 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 1: you and you're spot on that. Especially in the Bukte tradition, 343 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: there's a statement similar to viraja. It's called vipra lumber bove, 344 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: which means service in separation or love in separation, and 345 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: love in separation or longing is seen as higher than 346 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: love in connection because there's a deeper longing. There's a 347 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: deeper sense of connection and intimacy that is experienced in 348 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: wanting to be reunited with a loved one, whether that 349 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: be the divine in certain traditions, or whether that be 350 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: a person. But what I find really interesting is how 351 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 1: some of these concepts can be so easily misconstrued or swayed. 352 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: Like the idea that I think a lot of people 353 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: would feel that longing for a better life actually causes 354 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,479 Speaker 1: a lot of pain, as opposed to the idea that 355 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: you're really putting forward is longing of knowing that there 356 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: is more. And I'm just trying to really get into 357 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 1: that subtlety of like longing for a better life actually 358 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: causes us more pain and stress sometimes, whereas what I 359 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: think you're saying, and I'd love to clarify that more deeply, 360 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: is longing knowing that there is more, There is meaning, 361 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: there is purpose to this experience. Does that help? Is that? 362 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: And I'm really allowing my mind to like connect random 363 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: dots right now, I'm not following my notes or my 364 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 1: questions at all because I just feel like there's so 365 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: much depth here on cover. I hope you don't mind 366 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: me doing that. By the way, Susan, I apologize. Are 367 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: you kidding? Oh my gosh, I love that. No, no, no, 368 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: I think it's a spot on question. And I think 369 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: that what you might be getting at is the difference 370 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: between longing for, you know, material things or that kind 371 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: of thing versus a kind of more existential longing for, 372 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: you know, that which is beautiful, good, true, longing for 373 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: like perfect love, longing for the divine. Those are very 374 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: different kinds of longings for, you know, like I'm longing 375 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: for a nicer car. That maybe we're using the same 376 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: word to describe two very different states of being. Yeah, no, no, 377 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 1: that that that clarifies it. I think that's a great, 378 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: great thought that affects that. And for me, I think 379 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: what I love about what you're saying and in this 380 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: book is that, you know, artists and musicians most of 381 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: the time get their inspiration from sadness, darker emotions and experiences, 382 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: and it's often a really painful, traumatic transition in their 383 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: life that creates their greatest art form. You gave the 384 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: example of the bird is just a few moments ago. 385 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: And do you think that the opportunity to transform pain 386 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: into something creative like music or art or poetry is 387 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: possible for everyone or is the right way for everyone? 388 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: When a lot of people would say, well, I'm not 389 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 1: poetic or I'm not artistic, or I'm not creative. Is 390 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: that still what you've found and discovered to be a 391 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,719 Speaker 1: really healthy form of healing? Oh? Yeah, absolutely. I'm so 392 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: glad that you has that question because I use the 393 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: W when I talk about this, and I do say, 394 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 1: you know, whatever pain you can't get rid of, make 395 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: that you're a creative offering. But I'm using that word 396 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: creative in in a very loose sense, like it doesn't 397 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: have to be you know, the painting hanging on the wall. 398 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: It could be like the cake you bake, or the 399 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: organization you found, or you know, the time you reach 400 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: out to the friend who really needed to hear the 401 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: thing that you just said at that exact moment. You know, 402 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: there's a lot of different kinds of creative acts. The 403 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: real creativity is the transformation of pain into beauty, and 404 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: beauty can take endless different forms. In the book, I 405 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: talk about a lot of different people who do things 406 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 1: like this, you know, like the mother whose child is 407 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: killed by a drunk person on a highway and starts 408 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: mothers against drunk driving. You know, there's a thousand examples 409 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: like this. So I was hesitating as you could see 410 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 1: even to give that example, because I also wouldn't want 411 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: people to feel like, well, it necessitates, you know, starting 412 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: some gigantic, famous organization. It doesn't take anything like that. 413 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: It just takes some kind of act. It could be 414 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: an act of extremely modest and private transformation. But I 415 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: think the transformation is the key. Yeah, I love that 416 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: as a solution. I think what I notice in my 417 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: work is that often for people to get started, even 418 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: when things are somewhat more stable, starting is so difficult. 419 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: And the idea of starting anything when you're in trauma 420 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: or pain. And you are right that when you look 421 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: at some of even the greatest careers of musicians or actors, 422 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: often what they create is to heal their trauma. But 423 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: they don't necessarily heal their trauma in that journey. What 424 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: do you think is the difference. There's two questions here. 425 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: Let's start for I'm really getting excited about this topic. 426 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: Let's start first with how does someone start simply when 427 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: they're in so much pain, They've gone through a really tough, 428 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: difficult situation. They're not Buddhist monk trained, they're not exposed 429 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: to feeling that they're naturally creative in what the world 430 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: considers to be creative. I agree with you. This could 431 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: be a business, it could be a it could be 432 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: a painting, it could be a room in your home 433 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: that you redesign. Like, it doesn't need to be an 434 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: entity or a huge charity. But how does someone just 435 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: start when they're actually like, how how can I start? 436 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 1: I'm just so stuck in my pain? Well, I mean 437 00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: the first place to start, remember at the beginning were 438 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: talking about before there's commitment to the thing that you value. 439 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: First there's acceptance, and an acceptance includes kind of like 440 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: sitting with the wash of pain. So it may be 441 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,959 Speaker 1: that you're not really ready to do any kind of 442 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: like grand act or modest act of transformation for quite 443 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: a long time, and that's okay, you know, and to 444 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: accept that also to the extent you start to feel 445 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: like open and ready to it. Connection really is the key, 446 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: you know. And maybe it's one other person who you're 447 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: connecting with, and maybe it's a person you don't ever 448 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 1: meet in real life, and it's just somebody you're you're 449 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: connecting with over the internet, you know, I hear. I'm like, 450 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: coming from my introverts background of knowing that people have 451 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 1: very different wishes and how they want to connect, and 452 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: you should be honoring your own wishes. You know, some 453 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: people will want to be in a room full of 454 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: friends or strangers, and some people really don't want that, 455 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: and all that's fine, But I do think that connection 456 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: of one kind or another is always going to be 457 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: the key. It's it's what humans want most of all. 458 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: I'm just thinking of somebody who I am. Can I 459 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: talk to a lot for the book, and I wrote 460 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: about her. This is my a good friend of mine. 461 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: Her name is Lois. She's my sister's mother in law, 462 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: and and she she lost her daughter, Wendy to a 463 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: varying cancer and they were like incredibly close. And Lois 464 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: is an incredibly upbeat, cheerful person by nature. She's not 465 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: a bittersweet type at all. But you know, she kind 466 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: of went into a time of really dark despair. And 467 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: it was something like two years, you know that she 468 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: was like in her house and hardly coming out. And 469 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: she said just kind of like creating a shrine to 470 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: her lost daughter all over the house. She said, like 471 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: she was hanging pictures of her like up at all 472 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: these crazy angles all over the house. Like she didn't 473 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 1: even have the wherewithal to hang them straight or in 474 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: any way that made sense. She was really in an 475 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:06,239 Speaker 1: altered reality, and what started to bring her out was 476 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: realizing that she still loved her husband deeply, loves her 477 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: other children deeply, her grandchildren deeply, and feeling that the 478 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: message that she was sending to them was that maybe 479 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: they shouldn't be moving forward with their lives, or maybe 480 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: they didn't matter so much because she was so lost 481 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 1: in the love for her one daughter, and it was 482 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: that that was one of the things that most pulled 483 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: her out. And it doesn't mean that her grief has 484 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: gone away at all, but there's this incredible way of 485 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: putting it that comes from the writer Nora mcinnerney. The 486 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: difference between moving on versus moving forward. You know, the 487 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: message we get in this culture is, you know, eventually 488 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: you should move on, like get over it. That's the 489 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: message we're getting one way or another. And instead we 490 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: can move forward, which means you do go on with 491 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: your life, but you're carrying the last person with you always. 492 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: You don't ever have to leave them behind. They have 493 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: shaped you, they will shape you forever. They will always 494 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: be a part of you. You're carrying them with you 495 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: even as you move forward, and I think that's a 496 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: much healthier and more manageable way for people to deal 497 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: with their last beloveds. And with all of that, I 498 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: think connection is at the heart of all of these ideas. 499 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: Were there any specific examples you saw of how people 500 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,959 Speaker 1: carry someone with them long term in a way that 501 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,479 Speaker 1: becomes healthier and healthier for them as opposed to more 502 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: and more deabilitating for them where they what were some 503 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: of those examples. I'm intrigued as to how someone who's 504 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: had really like you said, like you were talking about 505 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: people who've lost you know, children or people who've lost 506 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: partners or of course parents, Like, what was the healthiest 507 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: way or methods that you saw people keep people in 508 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: their lives without it impacting their current relationships and their 509 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: current outlook as well. Well with Lois, who I just 510 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: told you about, who who lost her daughter, she often 511 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: talks about how she really wants to still be talking 512 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: about her daughter all the time. And you know, she 513 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,479 Speaker 1: said people around her would very understandably often like not 514 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: talk about her daughter because they were afraid to remind 515 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: her and upset her. But of course, you know, someone 516 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: in that situation doesn't need any reminding. They haven't forgotten 517 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: any way, but much more to the point than that, 518 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: they want the person still to be part of their lives. 519 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: So they want them to they want to be able 520 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: to talk about them in everyday life and just bring 521 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: up their name naturally. Now I'm not saying every single 522 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: person feels that way, and if, like, if you know 523 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: someone like this in your life, it's probably a good 524 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: idea to ask them what their preference is. But but 525 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: I do think many people feel that way. And then 526 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: another example is from Norah mckinnerney who who has this 527 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: idea of moving on versus moving forward, and her situation 528 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: was that she had lost her husband when she was 529 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: still quite young, and she did end up remarrying, but 530 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: she says that the marriage she has now and the 531 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: relationship she has now with her new husband is the 532 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: way it is because of her last husband. You know, 533 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: she is the person who she is, and she is 534 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: the wife and partner that she is because of the 535 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: experiences that she had with her last husband, and so 536 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: he's still present with them and a part of her 537 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: and and it's all integrated. It's not like there doesn't 538 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: have to be this stark delineation, you know, between that 539 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: which was and that which is. It's more like it's 540 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: all one continuous flow. How do we need to adapt 541 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: as a society do you think to allow for this 542 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: kind of healing, this kind of life, because, as you said, 543 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: most often we don't want to talk about it. If 544 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: someone does talk about someone they've lost in their life, 545 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: it can be quite unsettling and uncomfortable. A because I 546 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: think people are not used to talk about these themes, 547 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: as we discussed previously, but also because people are scared 548 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: of saying the right thing or the wrong thing, and 549 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: they'd rather not. And then ultimately it's about well, you know, 550 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: when is it right to talk about it? I think 551 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of aspects of this that make it complicated. 552 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: What are you seeing a good progress? Did you even 553 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: come across any communities or any tribes or societies or 554 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: places in the world or people that you found were 555 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: having healthier conversations around loss. Do those even exist? Yeah, 556 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: there's actually and I don't know if I'll be able 557 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: to give you, you know, names at my fingertips, but 558 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: it's actually fascinating there. I would say there's a movement 559 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: now that has sprung up to talk more about death 560 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: and grief and loss and all of it. That it's 561 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: a broader movement with many different subgroups to it. I 562 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: think we kind of reached a tipping point. You know. 563 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: It's like in the early it was around the early 564 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: twentieth century that we started moving loss and death and 565 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: all of it, you know, completely off stage. It was 566 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: like seen as being completely non appropriate, don't talk about it. Ever. 567 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: This was a period where it also became like out 568 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: of fashion even to talk about bad weather, like you 569 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: weren't supposed to notice anything negative at all. And I 570 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: think there's our reclamation process that's going on right now 571 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: with people realizing we will actually be more whole if 572 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: we can integrate all of this into our daily lives. 573 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: It's it's not about a love of the macab or 574 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: the more a bit or it's nothing like that. It's 575 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: just like tell the truths about being alive, like integrate 576 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: at all. And so, yeah, these movements are springing up, 577 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,959 Speaker 1: and and then I think you see it in other 578 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: ways too, you know, like I don't know, the last 579 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: ten or twenty years, it's become it's become increasingly common 580 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: to talk about things like compassionate leadership. And what does 581 00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: compassion mean. We think it means, yeah, be nice. The 582 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: word compassion, it literally means to suffer with someone, That's 583 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: what it means. And so this movement for compassion is 584 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: really talking about making a place for people to be 585 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: able to bring their joys and their pains and for 586 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: other people and colleagues to be there with them. And 587 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: of course it's uncomfortable and messy, and no one has 588 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: the answer yet of exactly like how to do business 589 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: with all our lives and all our emotions out there too. 590 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: It's complicated, but I do think we're starting to wrestle 591 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: with it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think that at 592 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: least being able to have honest, transparent, non judgmental spaces 593 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: seems to be a good beginning point. Ye. And I 594 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: think that that requires a lot of openness because often 595 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: there's a judgment on how we want to be treated 596 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: about our loss, and then there's a judgment from the 597 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: people on the outside of how you should be reacting 598 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:05,720 Speaker 1: to your loss, and so there's this mishmash of expectation 599 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 1: based on judgment, which seems really uncomfortable. Like if you've 600 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,319 Speaker 1: just gone through a loss, but then you're expecting that 601 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: people should deal with you a certain way. That's really 602 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: tough because chances are most people are not equipped with 603 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 1: the tools to know how to interact with you. But 604 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: then those people are also expecting you to get over it, 605 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 1: as you said, or move on instead of move forward. 606 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: And so I find that there's often this, yeah, this 607 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: tension between these two sets of expectations that ends up 608 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: causing a bit more stress. So it really requires a 609 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: lot of openness and judgment a non judgment from everyone. 610 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: One of the most moving moments I've ever seen at 611 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,760 Speaker 1: a conference came when the organizer of the conference asked 612 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: everybody to write down on a piece of paper just 613 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 1: something that they had been through recently or were going through, 614 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: you know, some like life trial. And people wrote these 615 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: things on their pieces of paper and put them in 616 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: a hat, and they all went up to the front 617 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 1: of the room, and then the organizer sat and on 618 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: the stage and he's just started pulling these pieces of 619 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: paper out of the hat and reading them aloud. And 620 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,839 Speaker 1: it was so profound because it was like, you know, 621 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: one person was going through like a terrible divorce and 622 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: another was dealing with an illness, and you know, it's 623 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: just like one thing after another, and you realize if 624 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,399 Speaker 1: you had looked around at these people, all of them 625 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: cheerfully milling around the conference and you know, like happily 626 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: shaking each other's hands, you'd have no idea of what 627 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: their true stories are because we don't present that particular 628 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,359 Speaker 1: face to the world. That's not what we do. And 629 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: so just the moment of being reminded of all our 630 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: complexities that are existing behind our smiling faces, that was 631 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: very profound. And I think there's probably a lot of 632 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: different ways that we could do that. You know, like 633 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: in schools, they sometimes have what's called a parking lot 634 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: of like a whiteboard where the could write down what 635 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: they're experiencing or feeling or thinking or whatever, and they 636 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: don't have to put their names. You look at the 637 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: whiteboard and you suddenly see like a picture of the 638 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: emotional and experiential state of the class. And I think 639 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: we could be looking for more and more ways to 640 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: do that with each other, so that so that even 641 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 1: if we're not so skilled yet dealing one on one 642 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,959 Speaker 1: with how do I, you know, how do I talk 643 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: to you about what you personally? You are experiencing collectively, 644 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: we can under we can see each other a little 645 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 1: more clearly. Yeah, did did you find a difference in 646 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: approach susan to people who lost someone to death? Are 647 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: you passing away, etc? Or losing someone who is still 648 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: alive who may even still be in your life to 649 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: some degree, who who maybe maybe they're geographically distant, but 650 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: they're still present, they still have their own life. You 651 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: may be aware through friends or through social media. What 652 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,240 Speaker 1: was the Was there a difference in approach to dealing 653 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,800 Speaker 1: with those two types of loss? Did you see different 654 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: ways of emotionally regulating or reacting to the different types 655 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: of loss? I think what we've been talking about now, 656 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: especially with the examples you've shared, have been very much 657 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: you know, losing a child or losing in that sense, 658 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: But what about like losing a partner or losing a 659 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: long term friend or someone in that capacity. Yeah, And 660 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: it's funny actually or not funny bit that we went 661 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 1: in the direction of bereavement, because I mean, I talk 662 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: about bereavement in the book, but that's not really the focus. 663 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: The focus is much more and just like in general, 664 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 1: the fact of you know, this human condition of there 665 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: being a pain of separation and a desire for reunion 666 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 1: that animates us in so many ways. So, yeah, to 667 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 1: your question, of course, it depends on each individual circumstance, 668 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: but people do go through quite profound losses and separations. 669 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: There's many, many, many, many ways in which these emotions 670 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 1: show up. And one of the things that psychologists talk 671 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: about is this phenomenon that they call disenfranchised grief, which 672 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: basically means that there's there's like a thousand and one 673 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: versions of these these griefs and these separations that are 674 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: not socially acceptable to mourn, and so we don't mourn them. 675 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: We don't even name them to ourselves as something that 676 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: requires mourning, because we don't think of them that way. 677 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 1: You know, if you broke up with somebody, Yeah, everybody 678 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,439 Speaker 1: knows that you might have a few tissue boxes out 679 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: for a few days or something, that nobody thinks of 680 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,760 Speaker 1: it as a subject of mourning, and other people aren't 681 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 1: primed to react that way. You know, your colleagues aren't 682 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 1: prime to support you in the way that they would 683 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 1: if you were having a classic bereavement. So I think 684 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,399 Speaker 1: the real difference has to do much more with our 685 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 1: expectations for ourselves and what we expect of each other 686 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: in terms of how we process. Yeah, I think as 687 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: I'm talking to you and I'm listening and thinking about 688 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: some of the areas I saw in the book, what 689 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 1: I'm always fascinated by is the balance of how do 690 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 1: we encourage people and ourselves to talk about our pain, 691 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: to discuss it as we're encouraging here, and to be 692 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 1: more transparent about it. What is the balance that allows 693 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: you to use that to then turn it into something 694 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: creative or action based or meaning or moving on and 695 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 1: becomes like a form of self expression. And when does 696 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: it actually limit you? Because I think we experience both right, Like, 697 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 1: so you see people build empires out of their pain 698 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 1: and no one knows they're going through anything, So they 699 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: can build something really phenomenal coming from a place of 700 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 1: lack during their childhood or their pain or whatever it 701 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: may be, and no one even knows, and no one's unaware. 702 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 1: And we've seen that play out in unhealthy ways. But 703 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,799 Speaker 1: you also see the opposite where or you see two 704 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: other ways where someone is expressing their pain but they're 705 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: constantly in their pain. They don't they can't find a 706 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 1: way out of the cycle. What is the balance between expressing, accepting, 707 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: finding meaning, and discussing your pain on a daily basis 708 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,399 Speaker 1: versus being able to transform it as you're encouraging into 709 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: me that what have you've seen? Is that difference maker? 710 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 1: Because I think we are encouraging people to share more 711 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 1: and that's massively needed. But I guess what is that 712 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,959 Speaker 1: what creates momentum towards a shift? And like you're saying, 713 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 1: there's this tyranny of positivity, right, it's not about just 714 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 1: what we should just be positive or you should look 715 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: at the bride side like that's that. We know that 716 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 1: that's out of date and that should not be amplified 717 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: across the world. But what is the balance? I think 718 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: it's a common concern. It's like, well, if we let 719 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: this in, maybe it'll take up all the oxygen, you know, 720 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,399 Speaker 1: maybe there won't be space for anything else. Maybe maybe 721 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,400 Speaker 1: I'll kind of like never come out of it again. 722 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 1: And and I guess that's where I think that the 723 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:13,839 Speaker 1: the bittersweet view of life is so helpful because it's 724 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,919 Speaker 1: the bittersweet view of life is saying life will include pain, 725 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: life will include sorrow, but it also will always include 726 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,919 Speaker 1: joy and beauty and so the you know, the job 727 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:29,359 Speaker 1: is to like never forsake one for the other. You know, 728 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 1: So if you if things happen to be going amazingly 729 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: for you, don't forsake the fact of the tragedies in 730 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: the world that exist now and may one day exist 731 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 1: for you. But by the same token, if things aren't 732 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,719 Speaker 1: going well, don't forsake the miracle of this world. Don't 733 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 1: forsake that either. And I think that that's really useful. 734 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you this one parable that I came 735 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: across that I found so helpful for framing all this. 736 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,760 Speaker 1: This one comes from the Kabbalah, which is the mystical 737 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 1: side of Judaism. And the parable is that all of 738 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:11,800 Speaker 1: creation was originally and intact and divine vessel that then shattered, 739 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: and that the world that we're living in now is 740 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: the world after the breakage. So it's a broken world, 741 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: but it's also a world in which scattered all around 742 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,320 Speaker 1: us are the shards of light from this vessel. And 743 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,359 Speaker 1: the job for all of us is to bend down 744 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 1: and pick them up and like, and you're going to 745 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,400 Speaker 1: notice different shards of light from the ones that I notice. 746 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: But we each have the capacity you know, to be 747 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: aware of the breakage and to turn in the in 748 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,920 Speaker 1: the direction of beauty. Like those those two things always 749 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 1: can and must coexist, you know. And the idea of 750 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,279 Speaker 1: this parable is is to kind of like bring bring 751 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: more of the divinity into into this kind of lower 752 00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:00,080 Speaker 1: realm in which we live. And you know, whether and 753 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: takes that in literal religious terms there as a metaphor, 754 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 1: I think makes no difference in terms of it's how 755 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 1: helpful it can be in how to live. Yeah, and 756 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: that that is the hardest part. I find that from 757 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 1: people I speak to when they look at what's happening 758 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,839 Speaker 1: in the news and happening around us and happening all 759 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 1: across the world, I mean, it just feels bit, a bit, 760 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 1: a bit, a bit a bitter, like there's there's not 761 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,719 Speaker 1: really much sweetness, or the sweetness feels very fleeting, or 762 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:30,239 Speaker 1: the sweetness feels very short lived, and the sweetness is 763 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: more ephemeral than the bitter, and the bitter feels so 764 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 1: bold and large and big that it just overshadows. I'm 765 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:42,359 Speaker 1: sure you have the same conversations and and and I've 766 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 1: found that getting to that balance of seeing both and 767 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,799 Speaker 1: recognizing the light, it's it's it's tough. It's I find 768 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,839 Speaker 1: that it's tough for people to understand that, and that's 769 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,880 Speaker 1: just a reflection based on what you're saying. I agree 770 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: that the balance is useful and powerful and recognizing where 771 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,000 Speaker 1: we can support and help. To me, that's always been 772 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:06,759 Speaker 1: the greatest lesson I think I learned was you know, 773 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 1: in times of uncertainty, don't look for certainty, look for service, 774 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 1: like look for meaning, look for purpose, because you will 775 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:19,439 Speaker 1: always find meaning and service and purpose in life. You 776 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 1: will not always find pleasure and happiness and joy, which 777 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,360 Speaker 1: are not, you know, possible. And when I look to 778 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,440 Speaker 1: I think the work of Edith Eager in her book 779 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,239 Speaker 1: The Gift or Victor Frankel in Mansearch for Meaning, and 780 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: you know, two people who lived through incredible atrocities, like 781 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 1: they turned towards finding meaning and finding purpose. And so 782 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 1: I loved what you said at the beginning, and so 783 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,400 Speaker 1: to me, that's that's always been what creates the balance 784 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 1: is you can't just look for joy. I think looking 785 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:57,200 Speaker 1: for joy or expecting pain are both really tough places 786 00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 1: to live because if you look for joy you may 787 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 1: not always find it, and if you live in pain, 788 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,719 Speaker 1: that's really difficult, and so looking for meaning, service and 789 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,440 Speaker 1: purpose seemed to be parts forward to me at least 790 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,439 Speaker 1: I agree with that, And I would say to each 791 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: individual person listening, to use the word and the ideal 792 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,920 Speaker 1: that speaks most to you. You could speak of truth, 793 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:20,719 Speaker 1: you could speak of beauty, you could speak of love. 794 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,080 Speaker 1: But basically it's talking about, like, look for the higher 795 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,279 Speaker 1: ideals because those kind of like transcend whether you happen 796 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,680 Speaker 1: to be in a state of joy or sorrow at 797 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,839 Speaker 1: any given moment, there's still the higher ideals on top 798 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,719 Speaker 1: of all of that for which we can live. And 799 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 1: I'll tell you, like, just for me personally, one exercise 800 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,400 Speaker 1: I found myself doing over these last few years, and 801 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,120 Speaker 1: I just kind of stumbled into it. But I start, 802 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 1: or I try to start most of my days, especially 803 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:52,359 Speaker 1: my work days, with an act of beauty. So I 804 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,319 Speaker 1: look at a lot of art on social media, and 805 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,759 Speaker 1: almost every day I share art on my social media feed, 806 00:46:57,920 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 1: and it's like one of the first things I do 807 00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,440 Speaker 1: and I working that morning, and it's attracted all these 808 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 1: other people who love that too, and it's become a 809 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:10,080 Speaker 1: kind of community based around that shared ideal. And it's 810 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: a small act, you know, It's like, here's a piece 811 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,879 Speaker 1: of beauty to start our day with. It's not going 812 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,759 Speaker 1: to save the world, but there's something about stepping in 813 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,480 Speaker 1: that direction that I think is it is just incredibly 814 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:27,040 Speaker 1: helpful and uplifting. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, how do you think 815 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,399 Speaker 1: we can? What I love about this book is that 816 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,279 Speaker 1: you're obviously talking about the individual, but you're also talking 817 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:37,319 Speaker 1: about organizations and companies and systems. And one of the 818 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 1: things that fascinates me is this idea that you bring 819 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:40,719 Speaker 1: up about how do you think we can end the 820 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 1: you know, the whole winners and losers idea and tell 821 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:46,760 Speaker 1: us a bit about that. I thought that was really interesting. 822 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: You know, people say, well, why do we have this 823 00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:52,600 Speaker 1: whole toxic positivity thing in the first place? And I 824 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:54,799 Speaker 1: kind of went back and looked at our history, and 825 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,920 Speaker 1: I think a lot of it has to do with 826 00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,919 Speaker 1: the fact that around the nineteenth century, when became very 827 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,200 Speaker 1: focused on business, people started asking the question, if somebody 828 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,880 Speaker 1: is a success or failure at business, is it because 829 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:10,959 Speaker 1: of good luck or bad luck? Or is it because 830 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,720 Speaker 1: of something in the person? And increasingly the answer became 831 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 1: it's because of something inside the person, And so we 832 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,960 Speaker 1: started looking at people and characterizing people as either winners 833 00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,439 Speaker 1: or losers, and over time, the use of the word 834 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:30,120 Speaker 1: loser has increased astronomically over time. And if you think 835 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,960 Speaker 1: about it, if we're all afraid to be losers and 836 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,799 Speaker 1: don't want to be associated with being a loser, then 837 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:41,040 Speaker 1: of course we're going to avoid any discussion of anything 838 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,520 Speaker 1: that has to do with loss or pain or sorrow 839 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,160 Speaker 1: or longing or like anything that we're talking about. You 840 00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:49,560 Speaker 1: would want nothing to do with it. Basically, what it's 841 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:53,360 Speaker 1: meant is we're existing in this false dichotomy. So we 842 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:58,719 Speaker 1: have to get to a place where collectively in our 843 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,520 Speaker 1: organizations we can just kind of be more comfortable with 844 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:05,600 Speaker 1: integrating all of these things together. And that's so tough, Susan, 845 00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,320 Speaker 1: because like, and I've worked in the corporate world for 846 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,120 Speaker 1: a few years and I felt that they were really 847 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,480 Speaker 1: trying to develop that culture and investing in it, and 848 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,400 Speaker 1: they did a pretty good job. And that was around 849 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:19,680 Speaker 1: nine years ago now where they were doing a good job, 850 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,440 Speaker 1: which I'm sure it's improves even since then. But I 851 00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,520 Speaker 1: think that it's tough because, like you said, when you're 852 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:34,359 Speaker 1: chasing promotions and pay rises and career growth, turning around 853 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,399 Speaker 1: and saying, hey, I'm really struggling at home. It's very 854 00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:43,399 Speaker 1: hard for an untrained manager or leader to recognize that 855 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:47,600 Speaker 1: those things can be connected but also disconnected. I have 856 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,560 Speaker 1: a team today, and I know that I have team 857 00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,680 Speaker 1: members that could be going through something at home, but 858 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:58,160 Speaker 1: actually being at work is what lets them get away 859 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:02,000 Speaker 1: from that and channel channel their pain into work. So 860 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:04,920 Speaker 1: what they're doing what you're saying, which is they have 861 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,120 Speaker 1: a painful environment, whatever that it may be, but they're 862 00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:11,920 Speaker 1: fueling their work with that passionate momentum to say, I'm 863 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:13,719 Speaker 1: going to be more creative, I'm going to love this. 864 00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,120 Speaker 1: So it's not necessarily that because they have a troublesome 865 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,279 Speaker 1: home that they're going to perform less at work. But 866 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:25,319 Speaker 1: I think that that requires a lot of emotional maturity 867 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,160 Speaker 1: from leaders and managers to recognize that work performance is 868 00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:34,560 Speaker 1: not directly correlated with home situation and that it's a 869 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,960 Speaker 1: lot more complex than that. So is there something that 870 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,480 Speaker 1: leaders and managers and people who lead people, even if 871 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,839 Speaker 1: it's two people or one person, like even if it's 872 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,560 Speaker 1: leading your family, you know, it's like, how do you 873 00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,600 Speaker 1: how do we help people develop that emotional maturity Because 874 00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,359 Speaker 1: most of us, And I know I would say that 875 00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,439 Speaker 1: if I told my boss that I you know, even 876 00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:00,880 Speaker 1: if you told you boss, like, oh, I'm feeling like 877 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,600 Speaker 1: I've got a headache this morning, that would feel like, 878 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:05,520 Speaker 1: oh no, no, I can't say that to them, because 879 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:07,560 Speaker 1: if they think I have a headache, then they won't 880 00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,279 Speaker 1: challenge me, or they won't think I'm reliable, or they 881 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,600 Speaker 1: won't think that I'm someone they can trust because they're 882 00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,000 Speaker 1: worried about me. Does that make sense, Yeah, I mean, 883 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,360 Speaker 1: it makes perfect sense. And you're reminding I used to 884 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,400 Speaker 1: be a corporate lawyer before I became a writer, and 885 00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,839 Speaker 1: I remember so much this feeling of like, I mean, 886 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,319 Speaker 1: I did this in the nineteen nineties. I stopped in 887 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,560 Speaker 1: two thousand and one. It was actually really before anyone 888 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,719 Speaker 1: was talking about this stuff. But I so remember the 889 00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,799 Speaker 1: feeling of walking into work and feeling like I had 890 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,359 Speaker 1: to put on a kind of emotional superhero costume, like 891 00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,560 Speaker 1: you know, everything had to seem like completely together all 892 00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,880 Speaker 1: the time, and there was a way in which that 893 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,479 Speaker 1: would make you feel really good in the short term 894 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,440 Speaker 1: because you because you were wearing the superhero costume and 895 00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:54,520 Speaker 1: that feels good. But in the long term, you get 896 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,319 Speaker 1: kind of burned out from it. So what can leaders do? 897 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,360 Speaker 1: As with everything, it's so helpful when leaders go first, 898 00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:05,479 Speaker 1: you know, like for leaders to model being able to 899 00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,560 Speaker 1: talk about something that's going on with them at the 900 00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,799 Speaker 1: same time that they're equally committed to their work. That's 901 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,160 Speaker 1: opening the door, that's showing other people how to do 902 00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:17,520 Speaker 1: it and that it can be done. And I do 903 00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:19,359 Speaker 1: want to say, and again this is me wearing my 904 00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:23,239 Speaker 1: introvert hat here, I want to say, like a lot 905 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:25,719 Speaker 1: of people don't want to show up to work and 906 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,719 Speaker 1: divulge everything that's going on in their private lives. So 907 00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:33,839 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about some kind of expectation or obligation 908 00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,520 Speaker 1: to be able to do that, but rather for all 909 00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:40,280 Speaker 1: of this to just become a more matter of fact, 910 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,839 Speaker 1: no big deal way in which we relate to each 911 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,600 Speaker 1: other on a daily basis. You wouldn't hesitate because why 912 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:49,799 Speaker 1: would you any more than you would hesitate to say 913 00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:53,680 Speaker 1: that you're moving from one house to another, Like there's 914 00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:56,600 Speaker 1: no real reason that's so much that these topics have 915 00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:00,719 Speaker 1: to be so loaded. Yeah, I really feel you're encouraging 916 00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,799 Speaker 1: is really healthy and powerful. And I went in my 917 00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:10,040 Speaker 1: own subjective experience you know, when I trained to be 918 00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,360 Speaker 1: a coach many years ago, and today I do a 919 00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:16,160 Speaker 1: lot of coaching, whether it's private clients or exact coaching 920 00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:20,120 Speaker 1: or corporate coaching. And I find that the greatest skill 921 00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,880 Speaker 1: that I gained through my month time and in my 922 00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:30,320 Speaker 1: coaching work is the ability to hear someone's experience without 923 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:35,560 Speaker 1: projecting my own value onto it. So the challenge with 924 00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:39,000 Speaker 1: the human mind is when you hear someone has a headache, 925 00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,680 Speaker 1: you think, well, when do I have headaches? How does 926 00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:46,520 Speaker 1: that affect my performance? Oh? Not good? That means their 927 00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:50,000 Speaker 1: performance won't be good or even in a positive sense. 928 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:54,320 Speaker 1: If we feel we are trustworthy people, when someone says 929 00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,000 Speaker 1: something that sounds trustworthy in our vocabulary, we project that 930 00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,359 Speaker 1: they are trustworthy. And so it works both ways, like 931 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,480 Speaker 1: we give people benefit of the doubt because of our 932 00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:11,920 Speaker 1: projected self valuation, and then we also project our negativity 933 00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,680 Speaker 1: or flaws onto other people as well. That if we 934 00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,160 Speaker 1: would lie in a situation, we're more likely to think 935 00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,239 Speaker 1: someone else is lying in that situation as well. And 936 00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,680 Speaker 1: so there's this projection mechanism that's going back and forth, 937 00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:30,200 Speaker 1: and so it really requires so much emotional stillness to 938 00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:33,640 Speaker 1: hear someone's experience and to truly believe that that is 939 00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:35,560 Speaker 1: just what they're going through, and that we need to 940 00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:42,240 Speaker 1: almost be investigators not interrogators, curiously of what that means 941 00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:46,719 Speaker 1: for them. And I think that's that balance that I'm 942 00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:49,000 Speaker 1: trying to do as a coach. But even through the 943 00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:52,240 Speaker 1: Monk tradition was like I think often in the corporate 944 00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:59,120 Speaker 1: space especially, there's an interrogation versus a intrigue around someone's 945 00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,719 Speaker 1: current experience. So you know, it's say, if someone's not 946 00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,200 Speaker 1: performing well, we interrogate them why are you not performing well? 947 00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:08,680 Speaker 1: What's going wrong? Like why haven't you shown up? Like 948 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,960 Speaker 1: why are your numbers down? Right? Like there's that interrogation, 949 00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:15,680 Speaker 1: but because we are thinking, well, oh, if if I 950 00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:19,239 Speaker 1: was performing badly, then there must be something wrong, rather 951 00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:22,520 Speaker 1: than the intrigue of like, well is there something happening, 952 00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:24,600 Speaker 1: like is there some way we can help you? Or 953 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,440 Speaker 1: or do you want to talk about anything, which is 954 00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:32,440 Speaker 1: far more of that intrigue versus interrogation. So but that 955 00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:36,080 Speaker 1: requires a lot, Like it's so easy to slip into 956 00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:39,319 Speaker 1: interrogator mode, isn't it. Yeah, I think this is one 957 00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:43,400 Speaker 1: place where culture can really help. And here I'm thinking 958 00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,680 Speaker 1: of one organization that I looked at in the book. 959 00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,759 Speaker 1: It was a University of Michigan case study by Jane 960 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:55,319 Speaker 1: Dutton and others, and it looked at this organization called 961 00:55:55,320 --> 00:56:01,319 Speaker 1: Midwest Billings, and Midwest Billings was basically they were bill 962 00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,920 Speaker 1: collectors for a hospital. So their job was to collect 963 00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,240 Speaker 1: the unpaid bills of people who had been in the hospital. 964 00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,319 Speaker 1: So this is not a fun job. No one likes 965 00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,960 Speaker 1: this job. The turnover in the industry is really high 966 00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:18,160 Speaker 1: because no one wants to do it. But at Midwest Billings, 967 00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:23,120 Speaker 1: they somehow develops this culture of compassion where everybody just 968 00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,080 Speaker 1: like got really into helping each other, like in this 969 00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:28,680 Speaker 1: joyful way. And you know, so if somebody showed up 970 00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:32,640 Speaker 1: with a cold, like they were running to CBS to 971 00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:35,000 Speaker 1: get the box of tissues, you know. And if somebody 972 00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:39,000 Speaker 1: was going through domestic violence, they were like, you know, 973 00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:43,360 Speaker 1: gathering round to support them. There's this one amazing quote 974 00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,759 Speaker 1: from a woman who had lived all her life with 975 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,760 Speaker 1: her mother. Her mother was her best friend, her everything, 976 00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,840 Speaker 1: and then her mother died unexpectedly and it was like 977 00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,200 Speaker 1: the worst, you know, the worst time of her life. 978 00:56:55,800 --> 00:57:01,200 Speaker 1: And she says she remembers how she felt like when 979 00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:03,200 Speaker 1: this happened, she's like, I have to get back to 980 00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:05,000 Speaker 1: the office. I have to get back to the office. 981 00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:08,719 Speaker 1: And she said it was partly because she knew it 982 00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:12,200 Speaker 1: would take her mind off things, but she said, she's like, 983 00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:15,800 Speaker 1: to this day, I'll never forget the look of love 984 00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:19,800 Speaker 1: on Latitia's face. Letitia was her colleague, and she's like, 985 00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:21,880 Speaker 1: you don't expect that from your co workers. I will 986 00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:27,200 Speaker 1: never forget that love. And this unit, their turnover it 987 00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:29,320 Speaker 1: was something like two percent. It was like nothing compared 988 00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:31,440 Speaker 1: to the rest of the industry. They got their bills 989 00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:36,240 Speaker 1: collected in record time. And it was because they had 990 00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:40,240 Speaker 1: this culture where it was like pro it was proactive compassion. 991 00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:42,080 Speaker 1: It was like they were all looking for the chance 992 00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:45,360 Speaker 1: to do it. So as opposed to the the attitude 993 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,920 Speaker 1: you were talking about of an attitude of interrogation and inquiry, 994 00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,760 Speaker 1: it was more like, yeay, when we get the chance 995 00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:55,080 Speaker 1: to be helpful to each other. And that's just it's 996 00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:58,720 Speaker 1: a very different emotional starting place. Yeah, I mean, that's 997 00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:01,680 Speaker 1: that's beautiful. That's beautiful, and I can only hope and 998 00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,960 Speaker 1: wish that more and more we can move towards that. 999 00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:06,880 Speaker 1: And I think the best thing you've just said now 1000 00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:09,480 Speaker 1: as well, is that it's something we have to create 1001 00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:12,240 Speaker 1: in our families, in our communities, in our towns. It's 1002 00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:15,920 Speaker 1: it's not something we can expect from leaders or decision makers. 1003 00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:18,320 Speaker 1: It's something we're going to have to bring to the 1004 00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,960 Speaker 1: spaces where we have influenced Susan. I could I could 1005 00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:22,760 Speaker 1: speak to you for hours and hours, because I feel 1006 00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,680 Speaker 1: like the work that you do and the way you write, 1007 00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,000 Speaker 1: and even this conversation, like, I feel like you've really 1008 00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,560 Speaker 1: given me permission to kind of really reflectively have a 1009 00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:35,960 Speaker 1: conversation with you rather than you know, systematically interview you. 1010 00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:38,360 Speaker 1: And I appreciate you for that and being able to 1011 00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:41,720 Speaker 1: go there as well. But we end every podcast, an 1012 00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:43,840 Speaker 1: on purpose episode with a final five. So I'm going 1013 00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:46,280 Speaker 1: to ask you a final five, and this is called 1014 00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,480 Speaker 1: the fast five, where we answer every question in one 1015 00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:54,320 Speaker 1: word to one sentence maximum. Okay. I'm terrible at okay, 1016 00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:57,640 Speaker 1: no problems. I'm terrible at sticking to it myself, but 1017 00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:03,600 Speaker 1: let's try. So the first is, what is the best 1018 00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:07,280 Speaker 1: thing you can say to someone who's going through something painful? 1019 00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:10,840 Speaker 1: I love you, that's beautiful. What is the worst thing 1020 00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,920 Speaker 1: you can say to someone that's going through something difficult, 1021 00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:17,120 Speaker 1: get over it or you know, or some variation or 1022 00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,480 Speaker 1: anything that you do that that signals that third thing. 1023 00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:22,960 Speaker 1: What's the first thing you do every morning and the 1024 00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:27,160 Speaker 1: last thing you do every night. I'm laughing at myself 1025 00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:28,960 Speaker 1: because I want to say the first thing that I 1026 00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,760 Speaker 1: do every morning is listen to music. But honestly, the 1027 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:33,640 Speaker 1: first thing I do every morning is look at my phone, 1028 00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,440 Speaker 1: and I'm really trying to get out of that. What 1029 00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:38,720 Speaker 1: music would you do? What music would you like to 1030 00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,640 Speaker 1: wake up to? I like that answer. That's beautiful. Oh 1031 00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,880 Speaker 1: you know, I just kind of like, go to my playlist. 1032 00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:46,640 Speaker 1: I should say, By the way, I have this Bitter 1033 00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:49,800 Speaker 1: Sweet playlist that I created. It's on Spotify and it's 1034 00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:52,480 Speaker 1: on Apple Music. If people want to go there, so 1035 00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:56,520 Speaker 1: lately sweet. Yeah. Yeah, Like if you google my or 1036 00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,760 Speaker 1: look in Spotify under Susan Kane and bitter Sweet, you'll 1037 00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:02,440 Speaker 1: find I love that. That's so cool. I hope everyone 1038 01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:05,760 Speaker 1: goes in downloads the place. That's that's great. I love that. 1039 01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,400 Speaker 1: All right, Well, question on before how would you define 1040 01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:12,800 Speaker 1: your current purpose? Yeah, telling the truth of what it's 1041 01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:16,120 Speaker 1: like to be alive, you know, like hopefully like and 1042 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,560 Speaker 1: talking about the things that people don't feel like you 1043 01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:21,720 Speaker 1: can chit chat about at the grocery store, but the 1044 01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:24,680 Speaker 1: things that matter the most. That's beautiful. I love that. 1045 01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,400 Speaker 1: And fifth and final question, if you could create one 1046 01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,080 Speaker 1: law that everyone in the world had to follow, what 1047 01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:33,000 Speaker 1: would it be. I don't know what to say, because 1048 01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:34,800 Speaker 1: I'll tell you the very first thing that I thought 1049 01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:39,320 Speaker 1: of is be kind But I'm really I'm resisting that 1050 01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:42,480 Speaker 1: only because I think that when you start mandating or 1051 01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:46,840 Speaker 1: regulating kindness, that's often like the road to hell. So 1052 01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:51,200 Speaker 1: it is my highest value, but I don't like to 1053 01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:55,800 Speaker 1: associate it with law or you know, or a compulsion. 1054 01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:59,240 Speaker 1: It has to come from a different source than that. Absolutely, 1055 01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:03,000 Speaker 1: absolutely well, Susan, thank you so much for your time, 1056 01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:07,400 Speaker 1: your energy, your presence in this conversation, your vulnerability, and 1057 01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:09,880 Speaker 1: for everyone who's been listening and watching. I hope you 1058 01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:13,200 Speaker 1: go and grab a copy of Bitter Sweet, How Sorrow 1059 01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:15,959 Speaker 1: and Longing Make Us Whole. We will put the link 1060 01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:19,280 Speaker 1: to this in the caption in the comments. Please please 1061 01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:20,600 Speaker 1: please go and grab a copy of the book. If 1062 01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:22,760 Speaker 1: you enjoy today's conversation, if you want to learn more 1063 01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:25,160 Speaker 1: about how to deal with loss, how to deal with sorry, 1064 01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:27,640 Speaker 1: how to deal with pain in the workplace, in your 1065 01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:30,480 Speaker 1: life when you're seeing it all around you, And the 1066 01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:33,400 Speaker 1: book evolves into the conversation we actually started, which is 1067 01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:35,439 Speaker 1: also dealing with death and loss in that way. So 1068 01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:39,320 Speaker 1: I really hope that you enjoyed this conversation, Susan, and 1069 01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:41,960 Speaker 1: I would love to see what resonated with you, what 1070 01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:45,000 Speaker 1: connected with you, So please do tag us on Instagram, 1071 01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:48,200 Speaker 1: on Twitter, or on Facebook, on whatever platform you use. 1072 01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:51,200 Speaker 1: Please do let us know what were the insights that 1073 01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:54,000 Speaker 1: you're going to practice or remember, what's going to change 1074 01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:56,560 Speaker 1: the way you think about something. And I'm hoping that 1075 01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,680 Speaker 1: this episode makes you reach out to someone and say, 1076 01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,080 Speaker 1: how you doing? How are you doing? Really? What is 1077 01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:03,520 Speaker 1: it that I don't know about you? What is this 1078 01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:06,040 Speaker 1: something that we haven't spoken about in a while? So 1079 01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:09,320 Speaker 1: please do share this conversation with the loved one as well, Susan, 1080 01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:11,400 Speaker 1: any last words or anything you'd like to share with 1081 01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:13,720 Speaker 1: our community. No, I mean, thank you so much for 1082 01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,520 Speaker 1: having me so wonderful and unique to talk to you, 1083 01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,160 Speaker 1: and I don't know to the community. I guess I would. 1084 01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:22,440 Speaker 1: I'll repeat something I said from the very beginning, but 1085 01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:25,440 Speaker 1: it really is to me. One of the biggest takeaways 1086 01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,440 Speaker 1: of this whole quest that I've been on for these 1087 01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:30,840 Speaker 1: past seven years of writing this book is the idea 1088 01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:33,280 Speaker 1: of that whatever pain you can't get rid of, make 1089 01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,480 Speaker 1: that you're creative offering that. Yeah, and I hope that 1090 01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:39,520 Speaker 1: we can stay attached through social media. And I have 1091 01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:42,160 Speaker 1: a newsletter which is Susan Kane dot net. You can 1092 01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,480 Speaker 1: find it. But yeah, this has just been wonderful to 1093 01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:47,960 Speaker 1: spend this time. So thank you. Yeah, and I love that. 1094 01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:49,840 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you ended on that, Susan. I think 1095 01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:54,520 Speaker 1: that's such a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, practical, actionable takeaway for 1096 01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:56,720 Speaker 1: all of us is any pain we're going through, turned 1097 01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:59,880 Speaker 1: it into something creative, turned it into something beautiful, turned 1098 01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:03,520 Speaker 1: in to something transformative for yourself and others. So, Susan, 1099 01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:05,560 Speaker 1: thank you so much for your time. Thank you so 1100 01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:07,919 Speaker 1: much for being here, and for everyone who's been listening 1101 01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:10,360 Speaker 1: and watching. I appreciate you. I'm grateful to you, and 1102 01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:12,360 Speaker 1: I hope you'll pass this on to someone else as well. 1103 01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:13,439 Speaker 1: Thank you so much.