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Speaker 1: Welcome to the movies you liked as an adolescent and

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Speaker 1: are now ashamed of shame cast. I'm Robert Evans and

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Speaker 1: today in the seat of eternal self hatred Jamie Loftus. Jamie,

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Speaker 1: you have just admitted, prior to the show starting that

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Speaker 1: you once loved the Dana Carve Vehicle Master of Disguise.

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Speaker 1: What do you have to say for yourself?

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Speaker 2: I feel fucking sick with myself, Robert, I haven't been

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Speaker 2: able to sleep in the twenty years since its release.

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Speaker 2: In my defense, it came out on my birthday, which

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Speaker 2: I feel like had a lot to do with why

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Speaker 2: I considered it my favorite movie. I felt a kingship

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Speaker 2: with it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, birthdays are like a performance enhancing drug for movies

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Speaker 1: that you see when you're eleven.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely true, the blood.

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Speaker 1: Doping of positive movie memories.

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Speaker 2: And furthermore, it's the most famous children's movie that was

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Speaker 2: shooting on nine to eleven, And so I thank you.

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Speaker 2: I wows felt like it would have been disloyal to

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Speaker 2: my country to say a word against the Master of Disguise,

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Speaker 2: particularly the turtle Turtle scene. However, you know, I think

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Speaker 2: the movie certainly doesn't hold up and I feel fucking

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Speaker 2: sick with myself every single day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder because famously Dana Carvey was dressed as

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Speaker 1: the Turtle Man when those planes hit those towers, and

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Speaker 1: James Cameron was twenty thousand feet below sea level exploring

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Speaker 1: the bottom of the ocean, and I wonder if they

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Speaker 1: ever cross paths at like a Hollywood event and started

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Speaker 1: talking about nine to eleven, So what are you up

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Speaker 1: to on that day?

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Speaker 2: And then Marlo Alberg just leans in apropos of nothing

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Speaker 2: and is like.

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Speaker 1: If I was there, I would have stopped it. Oh, Jamie,

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Speaker 1: you know, I can honestly say nine to eleven was

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Speaker 1: the first time I felt like this country let me

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Speaker 1: down because it delayed the release of the seminal Tim

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Speaker 1: Allen film Big Trouble, which it sure it sure did,

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Speaker 1: features a classic Patrick Warburton performance, by the way, it

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Speaker 1: sure do. Goddamn right. You see his ass, everybody, if

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Speaker 1: you want to see Patrick Warburton's ass, it's in that movie.

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Speaker 2: He is so underrated. I absolutely love love that man.

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Speaker 1: A total of talent.

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Speaker 3: Friends, just to say, this is behind the ba this.

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Speaker 1: Is behind the Bastards. A podcast about none of the

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Speaker 1: things that we were talking about. Uh, and today, actually, Jamie,

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Speaker 1: I've got you back in the hot seat, back in

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Speaker 1: the office, which is more of an ephemeral feeling than

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Speaker 1: a physical space, making.

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Speaker 2: Me an answer for my sins right off the jump.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, by talking again about our friend Sam Bankman Freed,

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Speaker 1: who you and I chatted about right after his life

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Speaker 1: collapsed last year, and I like we should do an update.

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Speaker 2: I think we should too, because I'll be honest, I

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Speaker 2: have done truly everything I can to avoid knowing more

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Speaker 2: about him, so I would say I know basically nothing

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Speaker 2: about him since we last spoke.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, It's it's amazing because normally, you know, I'm an

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Speaker 1: empathetic being, Like Sam has a face that I've just

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Speaker 1: always wanted to hit from the first time I saw

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Speaker 1: a picture of him. And normally when somebody goes through

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Speaker 1: this much shit, when like their life is this ruined, right,

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Speaker 1: Like I might I feel a little less like hitting

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Speaker 1: them because the world has hit them, but I still

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Speaker 1: kind of want to sock him in the fucking jaw.

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Speaker 1: Every time I see this guy.

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Speaker 2: Let me just check it has his face changed.

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Speaker 1: He wears suits sometimes now when he goes to court,

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Speaker 1: He's not wearing the basketball shorts.

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Speaker 2: Helpful and well, oh that's true. God, yeah, that's like

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Speaker 2: two different versions of an embarrassing, desperate way to present. Okay,

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Speaker 2: he's wearing a he's wearing a suit.

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Speaker 1: Now, yeah, he's wearing a suit. Now it looks like shit,

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Speaker 1: but whatever. Of course, I try not to judge people

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Speaker 1: on how they look unless that's part of the Cohn

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Speaker 1: and Sam as a guy for whom the dressing like

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Speaker 1: a slab was always part of his his like techbro genius,

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Speaker 1: you know, persona that he was putting on like a

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Speaker 1: fooled every puddy. A mug shot, Oh yeah, yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: got I believe there's a mugshot of him out at

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Speaker 1: this point, certainly when he went at the Bahamas. So

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Speaker 1: when we last left our buddy Sam in November of

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, he had been arrested in the Bahamas

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Speaker 1: and extradited to the United States, where he was charged

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Speaker 1: with so many financial crimes that he might theoretically spend

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Speaker 1: more than one hundred and fifteen years in prison.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Now, in the days and months since, a lot has happened,

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Speaker 1: and a lot more has come out about how the

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Speaker 1: former crypto mogul behaved before and after his fall. I

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Speaker 1: want to start with some of the latter information, because

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Speaker 1: by far, the most entertaining story to drop as a

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Speaker 1: result of these serried legal filings against Sam is that

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Speaker 1: he was using the nonprofit arm of FTX to attempt

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Speaker 1: to buy a sovereign name he could use as an

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Speaker 1: apocalypse shelter. That is by far the funniest story that's

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Speaker 1: dropped about these guys in the days months since.

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Speaker 2: What was the plan there?

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's a great question, Jamie. So let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the island of Nauru. It's an island in the southwest Pacific.

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Speaker 1: I think it's about twenty one hundred miles away from

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Speaker 1: the coast of Australia, which, given the fact that Australia

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Speaker 1: is really out in the middle of nowhere, is pretty

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Speaker 1: close to Australia. It is presently the world's smallest island nation.

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Speaker 1: It's got a population of about twelve thousand or so,

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Speaker 1: not a ton of people, and as an incredibly tiny country,

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Speaker 1: one of its primary assets is simply the fact that

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Speaker 1: it is a sovereign nation. Because there's things that countries

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Speaker 1: can do then nothing else can do, like issue certain

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Speaker 1: kinds like passports and visas and do certain kinds of

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Speaker 1: things with banking. Right, So, if you're a really tiny

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Speaker 1: country that doesn't have like a shitload of natural resources,

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Speaker 1: one thing you can export is the benefits of your sovereignty.

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Speaker 1: To say, really rich people who who might want certain

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Speaker 1: things that you can do as a country.

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Speaker 2: Plan is coming to get.

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Speaker 1: So there's a number of ways in which Naru has

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Speaker 1: kind of taken advantage of this to get by. One

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Speaker 1: of them is that they've sort of sold access to

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Speaker 1: their land to Australia to use, so that Australia has

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Speaker 1: used them for years as an offshore processing center for

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Speaker 1: asylum seekers. I think this stopped most recently in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: but there's been a couple of waves of this and

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Speaker 1: it was not a pleasant place, right. Conditions were so

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Speaker 1: brutal in sort of the offshore processing center on Nauru

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Speaker 1: from twenty twelve to twenty nineteen that several residents carried

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Speaker 1: out like deadly forms of protests, sowing their own lipshut

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Speaker 1: or lighting themselves on fire as a protest of the

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Speaker 1: conditions they were facing. Pretty ugly scene in the late

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Speaker 1: nineteen nineties. Kind of prior to this period, NARU was

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Speaker 1: the chief money laundering location for the emerging Russian oligarch class.

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Speaker 1: They helped a lot of these. All the archetypes you've

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Speaker 1: heard about in the context of Putin laund are about

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Speaker 1: seventy billion dollars in the ill gotten funds during the

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Speaker 1: early stages of the Russian Federation.

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Speaker 2: I have a good bastard's cameo.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, Naro's nar who's adjacent to a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of shitty people. Great, yeah, here, it's a lovely place.

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Speaker 1: Narus also designated a money laundering state by the US

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Speaker 1: Treasury in two thousand and two, which led to sanctions,

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Speaker 1: which I think is probably why they moved to like

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Speaker 1: letting Australia offshore migrants there for a while. And since

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Speaker 1: Australia stopped doing that in twenty nineteen, Sam Bankman, Freed

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Speaker 1: and his fellow effective altruists felt like they might have

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Speaker 1: had an opportunity there, right, Like Naru's kind of looking

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Speaker 1: for some new cash flow. They're looking for a sovereign

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Speaker 1: nation to do some things for.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's an opportunity to be effective.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, to be effectively altruistic towards yourself. Specifically, Sam

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Speaker 1: and his brother Gabriel Bankman Freed is actually the guy

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Speaker 1: sort of like organizing this attempted endeavor using ftx's charitable

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Speaker 1: donation's arm and their goal was to purchase the entire

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Speaker 1: island in order to construct what Gabe called a bunker,

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Speaker 1: shelter that would be used to quote ensure that most

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Speaker 1: effective altruists survive in the event that between fifty percent

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Speaker 1: and ninety nine point nine to nine percent of the

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Speaker 1: world population perishing a catastrophe.

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Speaker 2: Jesus, And that's like a pretty common this. I feel

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Speaker 2: like the Gabe of the situation is a very common

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Speaker 2: character in bat like just the devious brother. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I hate the bastard most of all, but I really

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Speaker 2: detest the devious brother as well. There's just it just

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Speaker 2: weeks of insecurity get your own grift man.

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Speaker 1: Especially since they're framing it not as look, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you got like a guy like Peter teal right,

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Speaker 1: and everybody knows Peter Teel's got like an evil rich

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Speaker 1: guy bunker to wait out the end of the world

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Speaker 1: if it happens, and like, fuck Peter teal but at

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Speaker 1: least that's Peter Tel's not pretending I have a bunker

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Speaker 1: to like, save the world by putting aside just the

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Speaker 1: best people. He's like, no, I'm a giant piece of

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Speaker 1: shit and I'm going to save myself if things go wrong. Okay,

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Speaker 1: like fucking Peter Teel, but at least it's honest. They're

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Speaker 1: framing it as my blood bunker for just boys. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's me and my blood boys. Jabe is like, no,

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Speaker 1: we have to in the event there's an apocalypse, we

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Speaker 1: have to save all the eas because they're the best people,

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Speaker 1: and that's what's best for the world that will do.

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Speaker 1: We're utilitarians, right, The greatest good for the greatest number

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Speaker 1: of people is to save all of the best people,

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Speaker 1: which is me and my friends, the other finance kids

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Speaker 1: who call themselves effective altruists, so they don't have to

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Speaker 1: feel bad for the fact that all they do is

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Speaker 1: play the stock market like every other piece of shit anyway.

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Speaker 2: So lucky that they all met each other.

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Speaker 1: So lucky all the good people I would love, I

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Speaker 1: would love honestly, Like, look, when the strike is over,

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Speaker 1: somebody at a network, bring me on. I will write

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Speaker 1: you a banger fucking script about an apocalypse where just

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Speaker 1: the EA guys are left in their bunker. Trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out society.

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Speaker 2: Okay, another incentive to end the strike would fucking rip.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we could do. We could do quite a tale.

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Speaker 1: We could have some fun with this one, Jamie.

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Speaker 2: I don't I think that there would be some effective altruism,

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Speaker 2: uh like ridiculous enough to do cameos.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I believe we could get We could get fucking

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Speaker 1: William mccaskell in. There no problem bring his Scottish ass

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Speaker 1: on board.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, vain little perverts.

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Speaker 1: Oh, and they're all They're all I'm gonna be honest,

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Speaker 1: kind of stupid. So I bet we could trick him,

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Speaker 1: like you don't have journalistic ethics with an HBO show. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we could just say we're bringing them on for an interview.

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Speaker 1: We could like film around him, liking what was that

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Speaker 1: fucking movie with uh? Oh yeah, Steve Martin where they

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Speaker 1: where they have to film the fake movie around Uh

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Speaker 1: what is it Chris rock Ship.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's the It's oh.

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Speaker 1: See now you're now now now it's I know, it's

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Speaker 1: driving me nuts. We have to figure this out. Uh.

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Speaker 2: I rewatched it recently.

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Speaker 1: It holds up.

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Speaker 2: It does hold up. It's like one of the best movies.

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Speaker 1: Bofinger fucking dope.

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Speaker 2: Younger.

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Speaker 1: We could do a bow Finger with William mccaskell where

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Speaker 1: he thinks he's getting interviewed for a documentary and we're

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Speaker 1: really making him the bad guy off our HBO series,

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Speaker 1: bringing Steve Martin to fuck it. He's still he still

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Speaker 1: got it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got good politics. He'd be great.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Uh glad, glad we remembered it. Watch Bowfinger, guys.

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Speaker 2: It holds up truly if you take anything away from today,

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Speaker 2: it really does. I was shocked at how well it helped.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, startlingly good movie, pretty good, like scientology joke. So,

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Speaker 1: Gabriel Bankman freed ran ftx's charitable donations wing, which included

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Speaker 1: a ton of money, for what many people have characterized

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Speaker 1: as political bribes. I'm not saying that he was bribing

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Speaker 1: politicians for FTX. I'm saying that's what a lot of

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Speaker 1: people have characterized what he was doing as. Now that

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Speaker 1: much has been known for a why, But it was

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Speaker 1: not until the current management of what remains of FTX

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Speaker 1: sued Sam. Because again there's new management that's trying to

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Speaker 1: recover as much money as possible and they're throwing Sam

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Speaker 1: under the bus. Because why wouldn't they, And that's how

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Speaker 1: all this stuff got revealed because they have all of

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Speaker 1: ftx's internal communications, so they found a bunch of shit

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Speaker 1: like that Sam was having Gabriel try to buy the

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Speaker 1: island of Nauru. Now it is unclear how serious their

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Speaker 1: attempt to buy this island was a representative of the

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Speaker 1: island's government has been like, no, no, no, we were

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Speaker 1: never putting our island for sale. This was never a

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Speaker 1: thing that was going to happen. And maybe that is

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Speaker 1: the case, maybe they were just being idiots fucking around.

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Speaker 1: But in a memo between Gabriel and an FTX officer,

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Speaker 1: the discussion was centered around the idea of buying the island,

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Speaker 1: of being in control of it as a sovereign country,

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Speaker 1: not just purchasing land, which is cool.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's a lot of work for a bit.

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Speaker 2: Not that I put it past him, but I'm just like,

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Speaker 2: it's not sounding like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think I don't put it past It's

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Speaker 1: possible that Naru whatever is telling whatever government officials telling

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Speaker 1: the truth they were never considering selling the island. But

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Speaker 1: it's also possible that Gabe at all believed they could

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Speaker 1: buy the island, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, they may in fact be that dumb.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Now there were discussions between these FDx

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Speaker 1: guys about using Naru as a base for human genetic experimentation.

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Speaker 1: You get the feeling that what their goal was to

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Speaker 1: create modified posthuman godlike bodies for their fellow effective altruists

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Speaker 1: so that they live forever and dominate mankind after the

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Speaker 1: collapse is undying immortals.

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Speaker 2: That just sent the ugliest photoshopped image like it was involuntary.

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Speaker 2: How quickly the like no neck, huge chest photoshops super.

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Speaker 1: So absolutely absolutely, Hey yeah, it sounds like a mix

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Speaker 1: between that one video game with the big robot dinosaur

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Speaker 1: and those sci fi books by that guy who wound

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Speaker 1: up being real anti Muslim But yeah, oh yeah.

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Speaker 2: A lot would be a lot of guys. I wonder

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Speaker 2: which guy.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's I think Ilium and olympos okay, I forget

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Speaker 1: the name of the author, but the premise of the

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Speaker 1: book is that like in the future, a bunch of

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Speaker 1: rich guys turn themselves into gods and decide to like

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Speaker 1: recreate the Trojan War with themselves as the Greek gods,

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Speaker 1: and they like resurrect a bunch of dead archaeologists to

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Speaker 1: make sure that they get the details right. It's it's fun,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's quite a series, except for the weird

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Speaker 1: moments of bigotry. Oh that good stuff. Dan Simmons I think,

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Speaker 1: is the author anyway. So, yeah, they're talking about we

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Speaker 1: want to create a human genetic experimentation base, and they're like,

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Speaker 1: we want to figure out what the sensible regulations around

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Speaker 1: human genetic enhancement are, but we also want to build

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Speaker 1: a lab. And while they're talking about this, Gabriel ads cryptically,

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Speaker 1: probably there are other things it's useful to do with

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Speaker 1: sovereign country. I don't know what he means by that,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, probably huh. So that could be as banal

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Speaker 1: is just like money laundering, which NARU obviously is quite

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Speaker 1: a history of, or issuing things like passports. But given

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Speaker 1: the fact that all these dummies are permanently poisoned by

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Speaker 1: a mixture of sci fi fandoms and weird futurist cults,

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Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say we all dodged a

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Speaker 1: bullet by the fact that they never got too far

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Speaker 1: in this scheme. Now, my favorite thing about this whole

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Speaker 1: idea is how dumb it is. On its face, there

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Speaker 1: are some countries that could act as really good apocalypse

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Speaker 1: shelters for the super rich. Right, Switzerland is one. A

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Speaker 1: lot of rich people have their apocalypse shelters in Switzerland.

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Speaker 1: New Zealand is another. But the problem for that is that,

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Speaker 1: like Switzerland and New Zealand are both functional states. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: if you're a billionaire there, you can have some outsized influence,

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Speaker 1: but you're not just gonna run everything because there's other

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Speaker 1: interests and like a functional system of government in place

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Speaker 1: in all of those places. I think Sam and them

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Speaker 1: were hoping that since Naru's small enough, they could just

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Speaker 1: utterly dominate the government, but they ignored the fact that

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Speaker 1: it's like one of the worst places imaginable to have

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Speaker 1: as an apocalypse shelter. For one thing, the island does

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Speaker 1: not grow much food, which means it has to import

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Speaker 1: in ninety percent of what it needs to sustain its

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Speaker 1: very small population it has.

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Speaker 2: It's all good, we have so much money.

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Speaker 1: It's okay, we'll just keep importing it. Yeah. It also

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Speaker 1: has very little fresh water, and most of its infrastructure

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Speaker 1: is on the coast and vulnerable to both rising sea

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Speaker 1: levels and hurricanes. It is very close to the bottom

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Speaker 1: of places that you would want to have as a shelter.

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Speaker 1: So very funny. All these people are silly, now, Jamie.

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Speaker 1: The main reason current FTX is revealing all this is

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Speaker 1: that they are suing the old management of the country company,

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Speaker 1: i e. SAM, to try and reclaim a billion or

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Speaker 1: so dollars they argue was funneled illegally into nonsense like

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Speaker 1: this and into the pockets of bankment Freed and his

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Speaker 1: lieutenants in the months before FTX collapsed due to insolvency.

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Speaker 1: Suit against SAM also includes some more confounding lines described

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Speaker 1: in this paragraph from an article on the suit by

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Speaker 1: crypto news site decrypt. The lawsuit further says that the

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Speaker 1: projects run by the FTX Foundation were frequently misguided and

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Speaker 1: sometimes dystopian. These included a three hundred dollars one thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars grant to an individual to write a book about

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Speaker 1: how to figure out what humans utility function are, as

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Speaker 1: well as a four hundred thousand dollars grant to an

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Speaker 1: entity that posted YouTube videos related to rationalist and effective

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Speaker 1: altruism material, including videos on grabby aliens. Now does that

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Speaker 1: all seem like nonsense to you, Jamie?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. Robert let's hear them out about the

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Speaker 2: grabby alien.

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Speaker 1: Don't worry, I'm going to explain all of this horseshit

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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 2: Uh my god, what kind of Rick and Morty ass nonsense?

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Speaker 1: It is some Rick and Morty ass nonsense. It's much

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Speaker 1: dumber than anything in Rick and Morty because at least

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Speaker 1: some of the people there understand story structure.

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Speaker 2: Unlike the at Please understand that it's a joke.

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Speaker 1: But it's a bit. Yes, yeah, so if you aren't

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Speaker 1: terminally adhered to one of the stupidest subcultures in the

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Speaker 1: broader tech sphere, that probably does seem like nonsense, and

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Speaker 1: it is. But let's start with the bit about paying

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Speaker 1: someone three hundred grand to write about what a human's

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Speaker 1: utility function is? Now, yes, what is a utility function?

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Speaker 1: Great question? In economics, a utility function is the measure

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Speaker 1: of welfare or satisfaction of a consumer as a function

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Speaker 1: of the consumption of real goods like food. In simple terms,

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Speaker 1: it's a way of describing the satisfaction or other benefits

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Speaker 1: gained by consuming a specific resource. This is important to

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Speaker 1: rational choice theory, which is a theory that states that

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Speaker 1: individuals use rational calculations to make rational choices to achieve

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Speaker 1: outcomes aligned with their own objectives. Now, most people who

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Speaker 1: aren't economists think that talking about the economy this way

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Speaker 1: is silly, because people are not in fact rational actors,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, we make shitty decisions all the time,

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Speaker 1: guided by misinformation or pressure that causes us to inaccurately

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Speaker 1: interpret the potential value of something like a college education

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Speaker 1: versus the cost of say, student loans.

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Speaker 2: Right, one could argue that Sam Bankman, Freed and co.

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Speaker 2: Are a great example of a wonderful example of the

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Speaker 2: IR But that's economics. This is not an economics podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm not an economist, And the way that Bankman, Freed

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Speaker 2: and his fellow Eas talk about utility functions is not

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Speaker 2: the same as how economists talk about it. Right, So

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Speaker 2: when economists are talking about this, it's part of how

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Speaker 2: to kind of figure out why people might make rational

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Speaker 2: choices by understanding like the value of sort of the ranked,

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Speaker 2: like preference they give to certain things that they might

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Speaker 2: expend resources on. Broadly speaking, when Bankman, Freed, and Eas

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Speaker 2: talk about utility functions, what they mean is something even

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Speaker 2: more abstract. And I'm going to quote from a summary

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Speaker 2: from a write up on a effective altruism dot Org,

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Speaker 2: a website you should avoid at all costs.

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Speaker 1: Quote.

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Speaker 2: I'm really not looking forward to finding out how this

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Speaker 2: somehow relates to to the grabby aliens.

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry in a very dumb way, Jamie.

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Speaker 1: Quote Okay, good eas and rationalists love dropping the term

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Speaker 1: in every conversation. Using the term utility function can be

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Speaker 1: immensely helpful when aiming to maximize positive impact or do

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Speaker 1: the most good. The concept of a utility function provides

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Speaker 1: a systematic way to quantify and compare the potential benefits

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Speaker 1: of different actions, thus helping to guide decision making towards

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Speaker 1: the most effective outcomes. By representing values, goals, or beneficial

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Speaker 1: outcomes numerically, utility functions allow for a structured comparison and

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Speaker 1: prioritization of actions. If, for example, your goal is to

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Speaker 1: alleviate global suffering, you could assign values to different charitable

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Speaker 1: actions based on their estimated impact, thus creating utility function.

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Speaker 1: This function can then guide you to allocate your resources

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Speaker 1: like time or money, where they will generate the greatest

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Speaker 1: utility or good. Now, that just seems like you're saying

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Speaker 1: you should try to figure out how your money's gonna

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Speaker 1: be spent best right before you spend it. But that's

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Speaker 1: not actually what they're saying. What they are doing here

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Speaker 1: is they are they are set like a utility function.

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Speaker 1: This context is a way of assigning a number that

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Speaker 1: you have made up. There is no objective value to

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Speaker 1: this number. There's no rigor to this. You are making

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Speaker 1: up a number to determine the value of spending your

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Speaker 1: money in certain ways. And you are doing this so

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Speaker 1: that whatever it is you want to do with your money,

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Speaker 1: you can justify numerically as the scientifically best way to

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Speaker 1: spend your money. So I see you can. You can

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Speaker 1: argue in this way by assigning these values whenever wonky

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Speaker 1: way you want. Now, me, paying taxes to fund roads

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Speaker 1: and a healthcare system is a shitty use of my

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Speaker 1: money because it doesn't optimize this thing that I consider

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Speaker 1: to be of higher long term value. And the thing

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Speaker 1: that's of higher long term value to me is spending

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Speaker 1: money on fucking space travel research so that I can

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Speaker 1: be a demigod on Mars. Right, that's best for human

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Speaker 1: beings in the long term. So in utilitarian speak, you know,

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Speaker 1: the greatest good for the greatest number of people is

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Speaker 1: that's getting to Mars as opposed to feeding starving people.

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Speaker 1: Right now, you know the utility function of getting to

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Speaker 1: Mars as much higher, So that's where our money ought

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Speaker 1: to go.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's all yeah, it just like comes down to

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Speaker 2: like the great the greatest good is me hah smiling

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Speaker 2: a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. There's literally some writing on that in that vein.

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Speaker 1: So it is through math like this that EAS are

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Speaker 1: able to look at it a world where millions face

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Speaker 1: death by famine or disease or rising sea levels and

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Speaker 1: say the best way to help the planet is for

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Speaker 1: us to become finance Bros. And then spend our money

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Speaker 1: investing in AI companies or whatever. The fundamental selfishness of

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Speaker 1: this whole community is made clear when you read the

436
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 1: essays these people write on their websites, like less Wrong,

437
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 1: a blog founded by self declared AIX Yeah, Eliza Yidkowski.

438
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,719
Speaker 1: Yidkowski is a rationalist, which is a related subculture to

439
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,439
Speaker 1: the EAS. There's a lot of bleed over Sam and

440
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 1: a lot of his people were rationalists to rationalists adjacent

441
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 1: and Yeah. To give you an idea of how these

442
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 1: people talk about utility functions, I'm going to read an

443
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 1: excerpt from an article on this web site titled your

444
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 1: utility function is your utility Function? By David Udell. I've

445
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 1: been thinking a lot lately about exactly how altruistic I am.

446
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: The truth is that I'm not sure. I care a

447
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 1: lot about not dying, and about my girlfriend and family

448
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: and friends not dying, and about all of humanity not dying,

449
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: and about all life on this planet not dying too.

450
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,360
Speaker 1: And I care about the glorious transhuman future and all that,

451
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,640
Speaker 1: and the ten to the fiftieth power or whatever possible

452
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 1: good future lives hanging in the balance. And I care

453
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 1: about some of these things disproportionately to their apparent moral magnitude.

454
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 1: But what I care about is what I care about.

455
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: Rationality is the art of getting more of what you want,

456
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 1: whatever that is, of systematized winning by your own lights.

457
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: You will totally fail in that art if you bulldoze

458
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 1: your values in a desperate effort to fit in or

459
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 1: to be a good person, or to in the way

460
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: you're a model of society seems to ask you to.

461
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 1: So you see what he's saying, if you read between

462
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: the lines there, what the most rational thing for me

463
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 1: to do is whatever makes me feel.

464
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 2: Best, whatever gives me a little smile.

465
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 1: Don't let people shame you for spending your resources, you know,

466
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 1: entirely on yourself and your own whims Like you're actually

467
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: a hero if you do that.

468
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 2: Oh, it is so fascinating to me to watch, like,

469
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: I don't know. It seems like this like self conscious

470
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 2: reflex where they feel the need to define rational by

471
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,959
Speaker 2: something that is more closely aligned with reality and then

472
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 2: immediately be like, but what that actually means is yeah,

473
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 2: that's said.

474
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 1: The core of it is always being able to say that, like, well,

475
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 1: if you suggest the number one, I have a responsibility

476
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 1: to other people, and that that responsibility is to some

477
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 1: extent out of my hands, which is what we all

478
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: say when we're in a society. Right, I don't have kids.

479
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: I don't have a choice not to spend some of

480
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: the significant amount of money I pay in taxes educating

481
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: other people's kids. Now, I'm not a complete piece of shit,

482
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: so I'm fine with that because like, I've done very

483
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: well for myself, and kids need educations. That's just a

484
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: nice way for the world to work. But these people

485
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: are more of the feeling that, like, no, I should

486
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 1: do whatever is possible to avoid paying for, you know,

487
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: a public school system. And in fact, I'm often going

488
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: to advocate for some sort of like weird voucher based

489
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 1: system that allows me to not fund public schools because

490
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: the greatest good for the greatest number of peoples for

491
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: me to ensure that like me and my rich kid

492
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: friends all get to send our kids to special schools

493
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,199
Speaker 1: where like what, you know, fuck anybody else, Like I

494
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 1: don't have any other responsibility for the broader population. All

495
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: that actually matters is like me maximizing you know, my

496
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 1: own personal happiness. But I still want to feel like

497
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: like I'm a hero for doing it right if I

498
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: avoid paying taxes in order to like spend all of

499
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: my money investing in open AI so that I can

500
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: like take people's jobs away, Like I want to feel

501
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: like a hero for doing that, because what I'm arguing

502
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 1: is that it's best for you know, the people with

503
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: five hundred years from now, and there's going to be

504
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: more of them there than there are today. So I'm

505
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: a hero for like getting rich off of this company today.

506
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 2: You know, yes, well, because there's, first of all, there's

507
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 2: definitely going to be people in five hundred years.

508
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: Sure, for sure, definitely, Garrett. If these eas get their way,

509
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: sure yeah.

510
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. If we are doing the most good they're

511
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 2: that's so fucking exhausting. I mean, it does, like your

512
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 2: Peter Teel example. Not that you know, doing evil is

513
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 2: good in any capacity, but the most exhausting kind of

514
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: evil is the one that also insists on you validating

515
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 2: that it's not actually evil all that time, that it

516
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: deserves to cut the fuck up and ruin my life

517
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 2: or don't.

518
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: It's the same thing with a lot of these fucking

519
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: right wing media grifters. Were like, it's not enough for

520
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 1: them to be rich, it's not enough for them to

521
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: like get their way politically. They they they feel like

522
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: they have like an ethical their ode, like being cool

523
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: and respected, and it's the same good. Like these people

524
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 1: are all finance schools. They are all like actively fighting

525
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: to avoid paying taxes and to be able to concentrate

526
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: ever more power in an ever smaller number of people,

527
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: to destroy the lives of you know, artists and people

528
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: who are like working folks in order to like make

529
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: more short term profits. This is all what they actually

530
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: care about personally, but they want to feel like Gandhi

531
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: while they do it. Right, because what they're doing is guaranteeing.

532
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: What they'll argue Jamie is that like, well, you know

533
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: this may hurt this company, you know, me getting involved

534
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: in this company. Sure, we may destroy a lot of

535
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: jobs in the short term, but by doing so, we'll

536
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 1: be able to make sure that the AI we build

537
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: that eventually becomes our god is one that cares about

538
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 1: the future of humanity, and that's better for the most

539
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: people in long run.

540
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 2: Yes, and history should remember me as the greatest man

541
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 2: to ever live. And people will you know, that'll be

542
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 2: on television someday when my computer is writing every television show.

543
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: Fucking hate these people. So yeah, it's it's cool stuff.

544
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: And I think the fundamental selfishness of these people because

545
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: all that effective altruism and rationalism are really about is

546
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: by is creating a made up system of numbers to

547
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: justify you pursuing your own benefit as like science, right,

548
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 1: as like scientifically rational.

549
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 2: This is really it's not as if that doesn't, you know,

550
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 2: like math problems to serve a very small group self interest.

551
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 2: It's not as if that doesn't exist outside of this circle.

552
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 2: But it's just like bizarre, how uniquely like they lack

553
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: any sort of self awareness or I don't know, it's

554
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 2: just they're so fucking annoying, is what I'm trying to say.

555
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: That's very true, Jamie. And yes, this is all really

556
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: clear when you look at how the movement, the EA

557
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: movement treated Sam Bankman freed before and after his fall

558
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: from grace. If effective Altruism can be said to have

559
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: a pope, and it can, because all of these Silicon

560
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: Valley philosophical movements are just kirklan Brand Catholicism. Hope is

561
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: Will mccaskell, an Oxford moral philosopher and co founder for

562
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: the Center for Effective Altruism. When FTX collapsed and Sam

563
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: got arrested, he was quick to put out a statement

564
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: of outrage. I don't know which emotion is stronger, my

565
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: other rage at Sam and others for causing such harm

566
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: to so many people, or my sadness and self hatred

567
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: for falling for this deception. Now, the only reason I

568
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: would hesitate to call this horseshit, Jamie, is that horseshit,

569
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: by virtue of being inanimate waste, possesses a fundamental honesty

570
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: that mcaskell is incapable of.

571
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, fuck yeah, Robert, that's the bitchiest thing I've heard

572
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: you say in a while.

573
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: That's thank you, thank you. He and SBF met back

574
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,719
Speaker 1: at MIT when Sam was an undergrad. Mccaskell convinced him

575
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: that he could maximize his impact in humanitarian causes by

576
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: earning to give, you know, making as much money as

577
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: possible so that he can give it away in a

578
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: way that presumably will help the world. Now. When Sam

579
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: ultimately launched Alimeter Research, it was an EA project from

580
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: the start, staffed by Sam's friends in the community. One

581
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: software engineer told Time almost everyone who came on in

582
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: those early days was an EA. They were there for

583
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: EA reasons, says Naya Buscal, a former software engineer at Alameda.

584
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: That was the pitch we gave people. This is an

585
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: EA thing.

586
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 2: I know, I once again thinking about sports video games,

587
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 2: and I know it's not sports video games.

588
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: It is it is basically a sports video game.

589
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 3: I just had the flashback to the Yeah interview you did.

590
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: I was thinking, Okay, it's true, it's true.

591
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: In the early days, Sam's pitch was that fifty percent

592
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: of the company profits would be donated to EA causes,

593
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: and the initial round of investing that got the company

594
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: off the ground was funded entirely by rich EA types. Publicly,

595
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: mccaskell asked about talked about Sam like he was the

596
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: EA messiah, probably because ftx's Future Fund provided a huge

597
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: amount of support for his movement, and just nine months

598
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two, the Future Fund, run by Nick Bexted,

599
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: a moral philosopher who used FTX money to support various causes,

600
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: gave more than one hundred and sixty million dollars in

601
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: other people's money funneled through FTX too effective altruism, including

602
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: thirty three million dollars to organizations that mcaskell had a

603
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: direct interest in. So that's why mcaskell spoke so positively

604
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: about Sam, which is is made even more fucked up

605
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: when you realize that, like other people in the EA

606
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: movement had started warning mcaskell about Sam Bankman freed and

607
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: about him being a con man as early as twenty eighteen.

608
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: And I'm going to quote again from time this is

609
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,479
Speaker 1: about from the very start of Alimeter research. Within months,

610
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: the good karma of the venture dissipated in a series

611
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: of internal clashes, many details of which have not been

612
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 1: previously reported. Some of the issues were personal Bankman Freed

613
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: could be dictatorial, according to one former colleague. Three former

614
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: Alameda employees told Time he had inappropriate romantic relationships with

615
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: his subordinates. Early Alameda executives also believed he had reneged

616
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: on an equity arrangement that would have left bankman Freed

617
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: with forty percent control of the firm, according to a

618
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: document reviewed by Time. Instead, according to two people with

619
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: knowledge of the situation, he had registered himself as sole

620
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: owner of Alameda. So basically, Sam has unethically taken control

621
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: of the firm and all of the money invested in it.

622
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: And he is like fucking his subordinates.

623
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 2: Its like, and he's also a sex pest.

624
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: He's also a sex.

625
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: Surprising And he's I've ever heard in my entire life.

626
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: Taking money from people's what are effectively bank accounts and

627
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: FTX and he's using it to prop up the value

628
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: of different cryptos tokens on Alameda to make shit look

629
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: like it which is money laundering, right, that's all. It's

630
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: like theft and money. It's fraud, you know.

631
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 2: Or is it the future Robert remember that?

632
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, remember what Larry David taught us all.

633
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: I know, there were some really unforgivable.

634
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: Uh, it's pretty funny, it is. Of all, it is

635
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: like I am on team, Like I can't be angry

636
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: at Larry David because honestly, if Larry David advertises a

637
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: financial product and you decide, he seems like a good

638
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: guy to this seems like a credible company to me,

639
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's a little bit on you, right,

640
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: that's a little bit on you.

641
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 2: Oh Els was in that commercial there was that was

642
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 2: a that was a damning commercial.

643
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: Those Yeah, it is. It is. I still say a restaurant,

644
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: Larry David. But that's for a variety of reasons.

645
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 2: So I'm curious what your other reasons are. But that's

646
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 2: for another day.

647
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's for a different day. So this caused so

648
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: again all of this shit. That is why this is

649
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: like everything that was obvious in Alameda in twenty eighteen.

650
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: This is all the stuff that he gets arrested for

651
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two. And when they become aware of this,

652
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: of the fact that he's fucking is subordinates and money laundering,

653
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: a bunch of EA people start raising alarm bells. In

654
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, several Alameda executives try to force him out

655
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: of the company and accuse him of gross negligence. Sam

656
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: wins the power struggle, though, and so most of the

657
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: EA management team and half of the company resign. Now

658
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: this might be you could see this as like, well,

659
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: maybe those effective altruist types were just in it for

660
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: the altruism and once they saw Sam with Shady, they

661
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: packed up. And that's true for those individual people. You know,

662
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: there's some decent people who just got caught up in

663
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: the movement, and they clearly had some degree of moral integrity,

664
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,720
Speaker 1: But the broader effective altruism.

665
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 2: Movement incredibly low there, including unbelievable Will mccaskell.

666
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: It's pope never disaffiliated from Sam. Mccaskell was saying talking

667
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: about Sam like the second fucking coming up until late

668
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. And in exchange for laundering Sam's reputation,

669
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: Sam sent tens of millions of dollars one hundred and

670
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: sixty million to EA causes in twenty twenty two alone.

671
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: And that's why mccaskell maintained movement ties with Bankment Freed

672
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,479
Speaker 1: quote in the weeks leading up to that April twenty

673
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: eighteen confrontation with Bankman Freed and in the months that followed,

674
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: Maccoley and others, who was one of the executives that left,

675
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: warned mccaskell, Bexted and Karnofsky about her co founder's alleged

676
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: duplicity and unscrupulous business ethics. According to four people with

677
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: knowledge of those discussions, buscal recalled speaking to McCully immediately

678
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: after one of McCauley's conversations with mccaskell in late twenty eighteen.

679
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: Will basically took Sam's side, said Buskal, who recalls waiting

680
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: with McCauley in the Stockholm airport while she was on

681
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: the phone, Will basically threatened her. Buskall recalls, I remember

682
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: my impression being that Will was taking a pretty hostile

683
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: stance here and he was just believing Sam side of

684
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: the story, which made no sense to me. So Will

685
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: again perfectly willing to like throw down against, you know,

686
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: the more honest people in his movement and personally threaten

687
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: them in order to keep the money flowing to his

688
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: fancy cause so that he can he right.

689
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 2: And then the second that it becomes you know, pr

690
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 2: inconvenient to keep the association, there should be some maybe

691
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 2: there is like a term for that of just like

692
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 2: even the cadence of what you read earlier of just

693
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 2: like the disingenuousness of like, oh I had no idea.

694
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: Like you're like, Okay, now you knew damn well what

695
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: was going on, and you knew that that's you were

696
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: willing to continue pretending he was a good guy and

697
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: aligned with your movement as long as the money kept flowing.

698
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 2: Right, No, light, Yeah, it no longer serves your best

699
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: interests to stand by him.

700
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, now you'll yeah anyway, So, Sam, we

701
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: don't actually know if he's completely bankrupt. We know he

702
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: took about a billion in payments and loans from FTX.

703
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: He claims not to really have any of that money,

704
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: and that he's he's working on getting what assets he

705
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 1: does have to like try to make a few more

706
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: of the investors that they had whole. That said, we

707
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 1: know that a big chunk of the money that he

708
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: made was funneled into real estate in his parents' names.

709
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: So that's fun. Speaking of his parents, one of the

710
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: big early mysteries of his case was that when he

711
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 1: gets out on two hundred and fifty million dollar bond,

712
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: his parents are signed on to the bail agreement with

713
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: their house as collateral, but there were also two mystery

714
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: co signers and their house. We'll be talking about this

715
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: in a second is on the stand for campus. The

716
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: two mystery co signers were Larry Kramer, a family friend

717
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 1: and the former dean of Stanford, and Andreas Popke, who

718
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: signed a two hundred thousand dollars bond. Popke is a

719
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: senior research scientist at Stanford and an advisor to several

720
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: Valley startups. So Stanford is very invested primarily because of

721
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: who Sam's parents are in this case, which is interesting

722
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 1: to me and.

723
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,760
Speaker 2: Okay, because that was I mean, that is my outside

724
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 2: of his parents, I guess realistically, what is in it

725
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: for them by taking that risk.

726
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: I think it's actually just that these people are close

727
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: with his parents, who are professors at Stanford and deeply

728
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: tied into that community.

729
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 2: I can, I mean, I can very much see like

730
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 2: bougie parents with influence, being like, Sam's just a boy.

731
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 2: Anyone could have made this mistake. He thought he was

732
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 2: doing the right thing. He got mixed in with the rock.

733
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: This has to just be like some sort of crazy

734
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: mistake because they can't imagine he just it's so dumb

735
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 1: and blatant, like all he did was rob people in

736
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: order to like gamble, right, Like, fundamentally, there's not a

737
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: difference between like him taking people's money, claiming that he's

738
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: got a sure stock tip and then gambling at Vegas.

739
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 1: Like legally, there's no difference between that and what he did.

740
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: But they can't because his parents are like ethicists basically

741
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 1: at Stanford, and I don't think any of the people

742
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,439
Speaker 1: they are social with can imagine that his crimes were

743
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 1: that venal and foolish. But you know whose crimes are

744
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 1: not venal and foolish.

745
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 2: Jamie, Oh, tell me, Robert.

746
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: The products and services that support our podcasts.

747
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: Uh, never encountered a product I didn't love.

748
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:59,959
Speaker 1: No, that's exactly right. That's exactly right, and we are back.

749
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: So initially, the reason why these other Stanford people are

750
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: secret signers on to this bail agreement is because they

751
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 1: were afraid that they would be attacked because of how

752
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 1: angry people are at Sam And there was a reason

753
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: for this. Shortly after he was sent to house arrested

754
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: his parents home, someone drove their car into a barricade

755
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 1: set up outside of their house on the Stanford campus. Now,

756
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: as I stated earlier, both the elder Bankman Freeds are

757
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: former Stanford professors and their home is on campus, which

758
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: has created issues for the school. The university still will

759
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: not officially acknowledge that one of the world's most famous

760
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: accused felons currently resides in their prestigious walled academic garden

761
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: one Washington, Stanford.

762
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 2: Like really fumbleshit constant.

763
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, it's absurd. It's because they're not really

764
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: that smart.

765
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 2: But well, yes, this again another great case for it.

766
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 2: It's also like, I don't know, just the arguing, like, well,

767
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 2: his parents are like ethesis, how could he be fucked up?

768
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 2: Have you ever met someone who raised no offense?

769
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 1: People in the people.

770
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 2: Call out any love, but it's like they know, they

771
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: know the language.

772
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. So one part Washington Post article I found

773
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: noted Stanford Law School didn't respond to requests for comment

774
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: when asked whether they could confirm a rumor that nearby

775
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,760
Speaker 1: student co op had attacked the Bankman Freed home with eggs.

776
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: Stanford campus police did not respond. Socially, however, Bankman Freed

777
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: is a source of deep fascination. There are party flyers

778
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: with his likeness. He's a punchline. In campus comedy sketches,

779
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: students ride their bikes by on dates. The campus community

780
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: is well aware he's there. An annotated map located the

781
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: Bankman Freed home was posted on a student only social network.

782
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 2: Okay, I be honest. If someone asked you out and

783
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 2: they're like, here's my concept for a first date, We're

784
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 2: gonna go watch Sam Samuel Bank We're getting.

785
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: We're getting married that night. Jamie, I was.

786
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 2: Like, we're going like, bring a flask, watch one of

787
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 2: history's stupidest villains, and then for each other in a

788
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 2: parking line.

789
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Jamie, that's that's the dream. That's the dream. None

790
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 1: of this. That's effective altruism right there. That's the greatest

791
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: good for the greatest number of people.

792
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: Sam could stand to learn a thing or two from these.

793
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: These theoretical Stanford students. Yes, so if you so again.

794
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: Sam's parents are both well respected teachers and experts in

795
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: different fields of ethics. Both were recruited to the university

796
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,839
Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, and they almost immediately hooked up.

797
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: Barbara Freed made a name for herself as a She's

798
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: like a philosopher. Basically. Her big thing was she wrote

799
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: a paper dissecting the ethics of the trolley problem. Whereas

800
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: Joe Bankman is a finance ethics guy. He writes a

801
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: lot about like again, like not breaking the law with

802
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: finance shit. It seems to be a big focus of his.

803
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 2: This is a very obvious thing to say, but I

804
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 2: do in defense of the Bankman family. I do appreciate

805
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,399
Speaker 2: when someone really rolls with their last name. I think

806
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 2: that that is a very fun quality. This is this

807
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 2: is an example of it not working out. I think

808
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 2: it's also equally bizarre when someone has a last name

809
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 2: where you're like, why are you not doing that job?

810
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,879
Speaker 2: For example? Yeah, maybe I've told you this before. It's

811
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 2: one of my favorite facts I've learned in my life.

812
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 2: My childhood dentist's name was doctor Vagenis and met. Nevertheless,

813
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: Glorious insisted in going into team. For some reason, I

814
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 2: found it infuriating. I'm like, just roll with it, man,

815
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 2: that's your last name.

816
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: ANOD needs to go after this guy. No, I'm sorry.

817
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 1: I know you don't know how to do this job,

818
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: but that's your life now. People will trust you until

819
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: you figure it out. I do you you know, are

820
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: the labydpeaking of nominative determinism. Joe Bankman would be it.

821
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: I wouldn't trust Joe Bankman as a drug dealer, but

822
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: I would. I would. I would trust Johnny Cocaine as

823
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: a financial expert, like like as a stockbroker. Johnny Cocaine, Yeah,

824
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 1: let him invest my money. He knows what he's doing.

825
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 2: I just, you know, say what you will about Joe Bankman,

826
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 2: and I'm sure you should. I know nothing about this man,

827
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 2: but at least he got into the right business.

828
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: Yeah he does, he does. Now. I people talk with

829
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 1: like awe about this guy, like he's so ethical, he's

830
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,479
Speaker 1: such like a decent man. He thinks so much about

831
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: doing the right thing. When the Washington Post is like

832
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: giving examples of noteworthy things in his past, one of the.

833
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 2: Ones you must talk about Ted Lasso.

834
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: In two thousand and two, he wrote a tongue in

835
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: cheek suggestion on how to avoid a Major League Baseball strike,

836
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 1: and his solution in this paper that's supposed to be

837
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: a joke was to levy taxes on teams and players.

838
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: Who's ruck that could only be avoided if the players

839
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: donated money to charity or the teams agreed to sell

840
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 1: Nickel hot dogs giants fans. Now, I don't know what

841
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: the joke is here, but it apparently tore it up

842
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 1: among upper middle class Ivy League finance academics. They all

843
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: talk about this is very funny.

844
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 2: Wait it comes up again. Is like remember when he said.

845
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 1: It was in the Washington Post article about this guy,

846
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 1: as like, look at a look at this. This is

847
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 1: like a noteworthy moment from his career. This like bad

848
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: joke that he made. But I guess that's what fucking

849
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 1: Stanford people find funny.

850
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 2: Imagine maybe it's hilarious that Yeah, I don't get it.

851
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: Christ maybe Stanford people were just like I think it's hilarious,

852
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 2: just like the word hot dog. They're like, oh, poor

853
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,879
Speaker 2: people food. Like I don't know.

854
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: Now, everything you find about these people is like, wow,

855
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: it taught like is their friends talking about Like it's

856
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: so shocking that this could happen. You know, these were

857
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: like the best people we knew. They were so concerned

858
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: about ethics, raised their sons like little adults, and they

859
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: were always talking about utilitarianism. How could this have gone wrong?

860
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel when I read anecdotes about them,

861
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 1: like it's pretty obvious why it went wrong. And to

862
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: kind of make that point, Jamie, here's a quote from

863
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: an excellent write up by Puck News. Quote. Bankman, who

864
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,280
Speaker 1: once boasted to a friend that his father had dutifully

865
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: recorded every cash receipt, wrote three case books on tax

866
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 1: shelters and tax evasion, becoming one of the country's leading

867
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: experts on the subject. One of Bankman's law students in

868
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: those early years was Peter Teal, who later told Bankman

869
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: that his tax law class was his most valuable because

870
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: he was able to put a lot of his Facebook

871
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: stock in an ira. As Bankman would later recall on

872
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: a podcast, this modest feed of financial engineering would save

873
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: Teel more than a billion dollars. So ethics, Jamie. Avoiding

874
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: a billion dollars in taxes so that Peter Teal can

875
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: spend it given Joe swastik Oat money to write New

876
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: York Times columns on racism. Hooray, I love ethics.

877
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 2: Shit yeah, and I and here I was a clown,

878
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 2: a fool about to be like, well, everyone wants to

879
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 2: rebel against their parents. That's probably why he's a cartoon villain.

880
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: When he talks ethics. It's not getting busted for being

881
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 1: a piece of shit with money. That's what it seems

882
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 1: like to me. Not an expert on ethics, I am

883
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: an expert on being a piece of shit though, So yeah, but.

884
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 2: You're a far different piece of shit.

885
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: Thank you, Jamie.

886
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 2: Thank Can I celebrate that about you? I like that is,

887
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 2: but I mean I'm not. I guess shocked that that

888
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 2: is exceedingly ethical to the Stanford crowd. But wow, damning.

889
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 1: So anyway, Barbara Freed, being a good Liberal, was horrified

890
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: by the Trump election and shows to fight back by

891
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: founding a political fundright raising group, Mind the Gap, which

892
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: was extremely successful during the Trump years and is rumored

893
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: to have acted is the model for ftx's own political

894
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: donation machine. Both of Sam's parents have seen their reputations

895
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: suffer with his arrest, and I'm going to continue with

896
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: a quote from Puck. Official property records show that Joe

897
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: Bankman and Barbara Freed were the named owners of a

898
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: sixteen point four million dollar beachside vacation home in Old

899
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 1: Fort Bay, part of a broader real estate portfolio owned

900
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: by FTX and senior executives totaling hundreds of millions of dollars.

901
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 1: They may have stayed there while working with a company

902
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: sometime over the last year. Sam said, though he denied

903
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: knowing any details about the three hundred million dollars worth

904
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 1: of real estate that FTX and his parents bought in

905
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: the Bahamas.

906
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 2: Oh, okay, so they know about absolutely everything in the.

907
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like it sounds like now. Joe and

908
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: Barbara have said that they've been working to return the

909
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: property to the company for some time, working too. Joe Bankman,

910
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: in particular, has hardly been a passive observer in his

911
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: son's scandal and may now be exposed to some legal

912
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 1: risk himself. Bankman interviewed and hired the first lawyers for

913
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: Alimeter Research back in twenty seventeen, and effectively served as

914
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: ftx's first attorney. He handled the inbound that came and

915
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 1: made the resulting introduction that helped FTX raise one hundred

916
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: and thirty million from his former law student. Private equity

917
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: mogul Orlando Bravo spent his free time on ftx's charitable

918
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: and regulatory efforts, and was ultimately in the room before

919
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: Sam made the fateful decision to sign the documents that

920
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 1: declared Chapter eleven. So they seem very involved in shady themselves.

921
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: I don't buy. Oh, they're so innocent. Their son just broke,

922
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: you know, made a mistake or whatever. They're all they

923
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: all just didn't think that this was criminal because the

924
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: people's money they were taking were poor, and they're fucking

925
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: Stanford brats, Like I have no respect for them. I

926
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: hope they lose their fancy Stanford house. They heard a

927
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 1: lot of it.

928
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, particularly because I mean it sounds like

929
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 2: this was their mo o from the start anyways, So

930
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 2: why would we now think that they would be above

931
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 2: this behavior if they're like, oh no, here's a way, Like,

932
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,760
Speaker 2: I don't know. It seems like their definition of ethics

933
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 2: is things you can technically get away with.

934
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, you think it's not illegal for Peter Teal to

935
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: get this billion dollars that he doesn't paid taxes on

936
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:57,240
Speaker 1: because you know, fuckery anyway, mister Bankman and missus Freed

937
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: have joined now the expanding cast of disgrace Stanford affiliates.

938
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: This includes recently university president Mark Tessier Levine, currently accused

939
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: of manipulating images on research papers in a way that

940
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 1: is equivalent to falsifying lab data for Alzheimer's research. Obviously,

941
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: there's also Bastard's Pod alumni, the Thernose Lady, another famous

942
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: Stanford disgrace. And then there's the fact that they're alumni.

943
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 2: King my favorite Stanford disgrace.

944
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then there's all their alumni who have created

945
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: companies or helped run them that have shattered the foundations

946
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: of our democracy in pursuit of a quick buck. Stanford's

947
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: current reputation is so grimy that a Washington Post article

948
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: on SBF's associations with the school ends with these lines,

949
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 1: and this is very funny. Jamie Adrian Daub, a Stanford

950
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: professor of comparative literature in German Studies and the author

951
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 1: of what Tech Calls Thinking, sees an encouraging sign in

952
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: Stanford being only peripherally involved in the bankman Freed scandal.

953
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: That might not have been the case ten years ago.

954
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,359
Speaker 1: He notes, when the Silicon Valley hepe machine operated at

955
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 1: more of a fever bitch than it does today. Other

956
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: than his physical location, it's actually not that connected to

957
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: us for once, Dob said, And that way, it's a

958
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 1: sign of progress and also a little bit melancholy. Stanford

959
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: was a place where the future was shaped, so it's

960
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: quite possible that's not happening anymore, that it's happening in

961
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 1: the Bahamas now and only comes to Palo Alto once

962
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 1: it gets indicted. That's so funny.

963
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 2: I'm hug up on other than its physical location.

964
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, other than the fact that he's here. He's not

965
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 1: very involved.

966
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 2: That's a big one, babe, that's a big one.

967
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: But it does seem significant to me.

968
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 2: No, if they're happy, I'm happy. That's great.

969
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 1: It's funny.

970
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 2: We have to return to to Elizabeth Holmes at some

971
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,760
Speaker 2: point because I'm very uniquely interested in her rebranding as Liz.

972
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:48,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, genius, because now I've forgotten her horrible crimes.

973
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I forgot about all of her crimes once she

974
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 2: had a cool and relatable name and had school relatable babies.

975
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: Well, escape hay kiss started going by Alan.

976
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 2: That's true. We can't take away that she's scammed Henry Kissinger. Yeah,

977
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 2: scam people out of their lives. But you know, yeah,

978
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 2: but the Henry Kissinger thing we cannot forget.

979
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: I say, we give her six months off as a

980
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: result of the Kissinger stick to me. So this brings

981
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 1: us to the subject of what precisely Sam Bankman Freed

982
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 1: has been up to in the nine months or so

983
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 1: since his fall from grace. The short answer is that

984
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 1: he has not had a wonderful time. In January, a

985
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,760
Speaker 1: month or so after he was granted bail under house arrest,

986
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,720
Speaker 1: the Southern District of New York, accused him of inappropriately

987
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 1: contacting former and FTX employees in order to influence their

988
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 1: testimony on his case. Sam tried to frame all of

989
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 1: this as part of his ill advised apology tour that

990
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 1: he embarked on last year in the lag period between

991
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: FTX collapsing and his formal charges.

992
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, did he hit the notes up? What happened?

993
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 1: Oh, he's like calling them. Actually, I'm going to read

994
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:56,399
Speaker 1: a quote from Puck in order to describe how he's

995
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: illegally contacting people. On a simber twelfth, the same day

996
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: he was rested in the Bahamas, Bankman Freed emailed FDx

997
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 1: bankruptcy CEO John Jay Ray the Third, offering potentially pertinent

998
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: information concerning future opportunities and financing for FDx and its creditors,

999
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: and asked to work constructively with Ray in the chapter

1000
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 1: eleven teen to do what's best for customers. No response Then,

1001
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: after his extradition, the crypto mogul sent another email to

1002
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 1: Ray on December thirtieth, in which he offered advice accessing

1003
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 1: Alameda funds. Still no response. Then, while being summoned to

1004
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: court in New York, SBF tried Ray again on January second.

1005
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: Mister Ray, I know things haven't gotten off on the

1006
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 1: right foot, but I really do want to be helpful.

1007
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 1: As I'm guessing you've heard, I'm in NYC for the

1008
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: next day. I'd love to meet up while I'm here,

1009
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 1: even if just to say hi, Ray, to not take

1010
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 1: him up on this offer, And.

1011
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:42,720
Speaker 2: He has no shit.

1012
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 1: He's reached out to several people, and it's always like,

1013
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,399
Speaker 1: I just want to help, you know, get as much

1014
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 1: money as we can for the customers. I just want to,

1015
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: you know, help you deal with the confusing aspects of this.

1016
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 1: But it's like, you're not supposed to be talking to

1017
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: people when you're in Sam situation who were involved in

1018
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: the company like this, because they're probably going to testify

1019
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 1: against you.

1020
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 2: I don't feel convinced that he understands that. I don't know,

1021
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 2: he's talking like a fucking spam email.

1022
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, he really is. And in general, Sam has opted

1023
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: to take all of the actions under house arrests that

1024
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: are likeliest to cause stress ulcers in his lawyers. In

1025
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 1: addition to repeatedly contacting FTX employees, he decided to start

1026
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 1: a substack where he planned to explain how fd and

1027
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 1: it's like, there's that famous line from the wire, are

1028
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 1: you taking notes on a criminal conspiracy? But in this

1029
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 1: point the case, it's like, are you publishing blog posts

1030
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: about your criminal conspiracy after being indicted?

1031
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 2: It's out growing an audience, Robert h Loah, It's all

1032
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 2: a part of the play.

1033
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like if al Capone had started in New

1034
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 1: York Times call um on having people machined gun and

1035
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,720
Speaker 1: alleys after he'd gone away to fucking Alcatratz.

1036
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,359
Speaker 2: Like, hear me out, you guys, It actually makes way

1037
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 2: more sense when I explain it.

1038
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, uh so neither. He only writes, like I think,

1039
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 1: two posts before he gives up because they're they're bad.

1040
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 1: He's bad and blogging. I tried to read them. He's

1041
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:07,919
Speaker 1: dog shiit writer.

1042
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 2: Well can I I mean not to be aggressive, but

1043
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 2: that's most substacked people.

1044
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: It's by the way, find my substanct not you, Robert No,

1045
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:19,479
Speaker 1: I know.

1046
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 2: You have more than two, but I'm just saying the

1047
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 2: average friend of mine that harangues me into you know

1048
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 2: these damn emails, it's too and and then they're done anyways,

1049
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 2: but not I'm probably going to start one that I'm

1050
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:38,720
Speaker 2: just being insecure.

1051
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 1: What I wanted to do in a I think you'll

1052
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:42,760
Speaker 1: beat Sam Bankman Freed, No, no question.

1053
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,280
Speaker 2: Your substock is great.

1054
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 1: Thank you, sir.

1055
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 2: Your substack is great.

1056
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,760
Speaker 1: Thank you, Jamie. This has been wonderful for my ego.

1057
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 2: Those are two that I actually read.

1058
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 1: So Sam's is bad though, and it's bad like in

1059
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:01,959
Speaker 1: part of part of what he's doing is like he's

1060
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:05,319
Speaker 1: been charged with a bunch of specific crimes, right and

1061
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: the posts that he puts up he does not acknowledge

1062
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: any of the charges against him. He doesn't like defend

1063
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 1: himself from them. Instead, he lays out a bunch of

1064
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 1: misleading in arcane spreadsheets to try and like argue that

1065
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,839
Speaker 1: the company shouldn't have collapsed the way it did and

1066
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,800
Speaker 1: that he like didn't realize like why he didn't realize

1067
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,279
Speaker 1: it was so bad he's doing. It's the same thing

1068
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 1: as like the EA shit we open the episode with

1069
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 1: right this throwing out like confusing piles of numbers in

1070
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: order to distract people, right, Like, this is just like chaff.

1071
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 1: You know, that's what he's doing, is he's throwing out

1072
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 1: chaff in the way of a bunch of poorly formatted spreadsheets.

1073
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 1: They don't convince anyone that he's innocent.

1074
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 2: I was to say, but it sounds like it. Also.

1075
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:47,240
Speaker 2: It did not work.

1076
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:49,839
Speaker 1: It did not work at all. You should not do

1077
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 1: this if you are being indicted for numerous financial crimes

1078
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: bt dubs. So in early February, the judge overseeing Sam's

1079
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,800
Speaker 1: case forbade him from using encrypted messaging app like Signal

1080
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: because he was so frequently trying to talk to other

1081
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: people who were part of this case with him in secret,

1082
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 1: which is illegal. He also got in trouble because he

1083
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: was caught using a VPN, which could have potentially allowed

1084
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: him to hide his communications. Sam argued he was just

1085
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 1: using a VPN to access his international NFL game pass account.

1086
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,879
Speaker 2: So I was like, did he just say he was

1087
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 2: trying to want a Canadian Netflix. Yeah, that would be

1088
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 2: fucking classical officer.

1089
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: I just had a lot of shit to torre at homie,

1090
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:34,879
Speaker 1: Like you get it, my men, he has since been

1091
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 1: limited to a normal flip phone due to his repeated

1092
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 1: inability to abide by his bail conditions. Now, some might

1093
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: note that Sam has already gotten more second chances than

1094
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:48,400
Speaker 1: most accused criminals get with their bail conditions, it seems

1095
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 1: accurate to say that the leniency he has received gave

1096
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:53,279
Speaker 1: him reason to feel as if he could act with impunity,

1097
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 1: which is why a couple of weeks ago he leaked

1098
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,799
Speaker 1: his ex girlfriend's diary to The New York Times.

1099
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 2: Which is take me through the Witch's wi.

1100
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,479
Speaker 3: That wasn't what I thought you were going to say.

1101
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:08,240
Speaker 1: I know, I know, nobody thought it was gonna head here.

1102
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 2: You know, I mean, it's although it seemed like we

1103
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 2: were due for another spiteful action against a woman for

1104
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 2: seemingly no reason.

1105
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely absolutely. Now I will say I don't like

1106
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 1: this woman either. Caroline Ellison is I think a pretty

1107
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: shitty person.

1108
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 2: She was the we spoke about her last time, right, Yeah, yeah.

1109
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: She unpleasant lady. She was the former CEO of Alameda.

1110
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: I've been fucking listening to this podcast called Spellcaster, which

1111
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 1: is like a wondery podcast about Sam Bankman Freed. I

1112
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 1: don't like it. The woman who does it like was

1113
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 1: at a was at a bachelorette party with Carolyn Ellison

1114
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 1: right before the charges dropped and was like, Oh, she's

1115
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 1: so smart, She's so and she repeats the same bullshit

1116
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 1: everyone says about Sam. They were such, they were like geniuses,

1117
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 1: and it's like, no, they just like blew out a

1118
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 1: bunch of numbers you didn't understand and convinced you they

1119
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 1: were smart because they said numbers right, Like, there's nothing

1120
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 1: these people have done that is smart.

1121
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 2: With situations like that, I'm like, I guess I appreciate

1122
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 2: the disclosure, but like, why the fuck were you hired

1123
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 2: to do this show?

1124
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 1: Well, it's it's because big media is just as tiny

1125
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 1: and insular a world full of rich people as finance,

1126
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 1: and in fact, a lot of the same families have

1127
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: people at the times and people and fucking investment banks,

1128
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 1: which is why here at cool Zone Media we exclusively

1129
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 1: hire people who used to sell ketamine on their college

1130
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 1: campuses in order to get by. You know. That's that's

1131
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 1: that's the Cool Zone guarantee or adderall.

1132
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 2: You know, And I appreciate that you made an exception

1133
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 2: for some of us that you didn't have to be

1134
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 2: good at it. You just had to truck. No.

1135
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 1: In fact, we will not hire you if you were

1136
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 1: good at selling trump campus. Why did you even apply

1137
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 1: to this media mediocre part time campus drug dealers. That's

1138
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 1: our that's our higher ring pool. Yeah, that's our, Like,

1139
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 1: I don't know whatever, I don't know the names of

1140
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 1: enough fancy news.

1141
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 3: Really not that big of a stretch, Let's be honest.

1142
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 2: I'm fucking proud of that.

1143
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 1: So Carolyn Ellison, former CEO of Alameda and also Sam's

1144
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:25,919
Speaker 1: on again off again bo she immediately turns.

1145
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 2: Like you using the term bo but continue?

1146
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: Why not?

1147
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 2: That's what I should I use boo. I kind of

1148
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 2: like boo.

1149
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 3: I was like, I was like, that doesn't really make sense.

1150
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 1: But they were ko boos. So she immediately turned state's

1151
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 1: witness and admitted guilt for her share of the illegal

1152
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 1: activities committed by Alameda, and she apparently, as a part

1153
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 1: as part of immediately rolling handed over her diary. I

1154
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: think that's how they got her diaries was part of

1155
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 1: the terms of like the Yeah, so it gets introduced

1156
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,400
Speaker 1: into evidence, which obviously Sam I think will get access

1157
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 1: to as a result to that, because that's the way

1158
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 1: discovery works. I believe that's how he got her diary.

1159
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:06,440
Speaker 2: Was she also a Stanford Head?

1160
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 1: I don't think she went to I think she her

1161
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 1: parents were professors at M I T h Wow.

1162
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, losers over it Yeah yeah.

1163
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, just Hobo University right there.

1164
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 2: Until it happens to me. I love when someone's diary

1165
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 2: is introduced into evidence, and that brings me back to

1166
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Holmes yet again, when she like her her creepy

1167
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 2: little sexts with Sunny Belwani ooh.

1168
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: Some of the worst some of the very worst sex.

1169
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 2: That is maybe the moment that I felt closest to her.

1170
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,640
Speaker 2: That's when she That's when Liz almost got me because

1171
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 2: she was sending walls of text to this guy and

1172
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 2: then he was sending me back. Okay, and it's like, you.

1173
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 1: Know what, brutal. No, No, she deserves she deserved a

1174
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 1: man like Jeff Bezos, who would call her the most

1175
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 1: unsettling nickname I've ever heard, you know, but at least

1176
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 1: he was bonded a live girl.

1177
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right. I think we we as we

1178
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 3: we we we we as a collective blocks that out intentionally.

1179
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very funny. It does make it clear that

1180
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 1: he's not a robot, because like, nobody, nobody fakes that.

1181
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 1: That's that's that's evidence that he feels something. What he

1182
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: feels is off putting, it's frightening, it's like profoundly unsettling.

1183
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:32,120
Speaker 1: But he does feel something.

1184
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 2: But unfortunately, yeah, chat GPT could have outdone that in

1185
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 2: terms of sounding like a person.

1186
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah. So anyway, Sam gets access to her diary

1187
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: one way or the other. Uh, and then he hands

1188
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 1: her diary to the New York Times so that they

1189
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 1: can write an article about it. Now that is unethical

1190
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 1: as fuck and possibly illegal. The prosecution has asked that

1191
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 1: he be jailed, that his bay will be revoked because

1192
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: of what he did. Sam's this is still going on

1193
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 1: as we talk. I'll record a little update if he

1194
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 1: does go to jail as a result of this. Hey everyone,

1195
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 1: Robert here just wanted to update you that, since we

1196
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 1: recorded this episode a couple of days before you're hearing it,

1197
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:18,560
Speaker 1: Sam Bankman freed was remanded to custody. He is incarcerated

1198
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 1: now and he will remain in jail after violating his

1199
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 1: bail conditions, until his trial in October at least, and

1200
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:29,960
Speaker 1: possibly well beyond that, depending on how the charges and

1201
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: sentencing and all that stuff go. I should note that

1202
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 1: kind of the most recent story after that is that

1203
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 1: his lawyers requested that he'd be allowed to have his

1204
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:44,080
Speaker 1: ADHD medication and depression medication, which he ran out of

1205
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 1: soon after being taken into custody. The judge has ordered

1206
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:50,440
Speaker 1: that he'd be given that medication. Obviously, I'm always in

1207
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 1: favor of people who are incarcerated having access to medication

1208
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:57,840
Speaker 1: if anyone's interested. I don't actually think putting Sam in

1209
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 1: jail's going to do much good. I'm a little bit

1210
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 1: more mixed on this than I normally am, just because

1211
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 1: of the case of Adam Newman, the wee work guy

1212
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 1: who got off Scott free from his giant financial crimes

1213
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 1: and is now starting another giant grift company. And we'll

1214
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:17,640
Speaker 1: probably fuck with a bunch of other people's lives. But

1215
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 1: I do kind of think it's unlikely that we're going

1216
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 1: to get much benefit out of this. That said, I

1217
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 1: don't really feel for Sam. He had many many chances

1218
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:29,120
Speaker 1: not to be in this situation, and he fucked all

1219
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:32,440
Speaker 1: of them up. So, you know, fuck the guy. Sam's

1220
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 1: lauriers have argued he was not attempting to discredit a

1221
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 1: week a witness, but just to respond to a toxic

1222
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 1: media environment, which he says unfairly portrays him as a villain.

1223
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 1: And I guess we're part of that toxic media environment.

1224
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 1: Although Sam free tip here, handing your ex girlfriend's diary

1225
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:51,640
Speaker 1: to the New York Times is a bad way to

1226
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 1: seem like, not the villain. That's kind of villain behavior, homie.

1227
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 1: That hate to tell you.

1228
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 2: I again, but it's like again you can imagined his

1229
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 2: like doofy loser fucking logic of like no officer, I

1230
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:09,400
Speaker 2: was just being a petty bitch. Is that the law?

1231
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 2: And you're like, yeah, this is, yes.

1232
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 1: Yes it is, actually, sir bruh. So humorously enough, that

1233
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 1: is the legal argument his lawyers are making. And they

1234
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:20,360
Speaker 1: kind of have a point because they're like, look, if

1235
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 1: you read the New York Times article based on her diary,

1236
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 1: he seems like a piece of shit, So clearly we

1237
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 1: weren't trying to influence the prosecution. And like, they do

1238
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:33,240
Speaker 1: have a point because he does come across as the

1239
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 1: bad guy in that article that he made happen. So

1240
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 1: that's funny he comes up, this.

1241
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:40,760
Speaker 2: Is the bad guy in most things.

1242
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:43,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna quote from some of that New York

1243
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:46,920
Speaker 1: Times coverage here. Mister Bankman Freed and Miss Ellison have

1244
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:50,960
Speaker 1: started an unsteady also started an unsteady romantic relationship, with

1245
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:55,000
Speaker 1: multiple breakups and reconciliations. At times. Miss Ellison worried that

1246
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 1: mister Bankman Freed thought she wasn't good enough when he

1247
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 1: was around. She wrote in February twenty twenty two in

1248
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:02,960
Speaker 1: a Google document, she had an instinct to shrink and

1249
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:06,360
Speaker 1: become smaller and quieter and defer to others. After one split,

1250
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 1: miss Ellison cut off communication with mister bankmin Freed. I

1251
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:11,959
Speaker 1: felt pretty hurt rejected, she wrote in the April twenty

1252
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 1: twenty two Google document. Not giving you the contact you

1253
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 1: wanted felt like the only way I could regain a

1254
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 1: sense of power. Miss Ellison was compensated far less generously

1255
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 1: than other top executives at FTX and Alomedia, though it's

1256
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 1: unclear whether she was aware of it. According to court filings,

1257
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 1: the Exchangees, founders and other key employees received three point

1258
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 1: two billion dollars in payouts and loans. Of that total,

1259
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:34,600
Speaker 1: six million went to Miss Ellison, compared with five hundred

1260
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 1: and eighty seven million for mister Singh ftx's head of engineering,

1261
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 1: and two hundred and forty six million for mister Wang,

1262
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 1: one of the founders. Mister Bankman Freed received two point

1263
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 1: two billion. So's Ellison is definitely not innocent here. She

1264
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:52,919
Speaker 1: has admitted guilt in this case, but the reporting makes

1265
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:54,919
Speaker 1: it seem as if her main role was to act

1266
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,360
Speaker 1: as a patsy. Sam knew she was in love with

1267
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 1: him and deeply insecure, so he put her in charge

1268
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 1: of Alameda so that he could use it as part

1269
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 1: of his grift to manipulate the value of his CRISP

1270
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 1: crypto empire using customer funds. And this basically the six

1271
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:11,280
Speaker 1: million he gave her, which is a tiny fraction of

1272
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 1: like the three billion they funnel to executives. That's like

1273
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:17,360
Speaker 1: him paying her to be a smoke screen. Right, She's

1274
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 1: not an equal partner in this enterprise. And one of

1275
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:21,720
Speaker 1: the things that had happened right before this fell apart

1276
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 1: is he had he had stopped paying attention to her

1277
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:27,760
Speaker 1: in Alameda in order to start throwing money through another

1278
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,320
Speaker 1: crypto exchange run from a woman he was fucking now

1279
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 1: that he had like, so it seems like this was

1280
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 1: a path for him.

1281
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:37,840
Speaker 4: Stop stop what I'm not doing this. I'm just talking

1282
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 4: about what he did. I just really just it's well,

1283
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:43,640
Speaker 4: it's bad. He's a bastard. That's why we're talking about him.

1284
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:46,480
Speaker 2: I just really I just really need I don't know

1285
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:48,760
Speaker 2: who needs to hear this, but we just really need

1286
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:50,600
Speaker 2: people to stop fucking Sam Pankman.

1287
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 1: That's this is very bad, gross behavior.

1288
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 2: It's gross and it's bad for the world.

1289
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:03,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so you know, fuck this guy. One bit

1290
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 1: of schadenfreude I can give you all is that, according

1291
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:09,840
Speaker 1: to Puck News, Sam's present situation is so unpleasant that

1292
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 1: he considers his trips across the country to go to

1293
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 1: court in New York the highlight of his life now

1294
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 1: because he gets to like go out in the street.

1295
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 1: He's surrounded by lawyers in private security, so it's like

1296
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 1: he's got an entourage again. He gets to travel. This

1297
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:24,400
Speaker 1: is like the closest he gets to feeling like when

1298
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:27,680
Speaker 1: he used to be a billionaire. So that's kind of fun.

1299
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 1: The downside is from the perspective of an FBF hater,

1300
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:35,200
Speaker 1: the downside is that recently one of his charges was dismissed.

1301
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:38,720
Speaker 1: The campaign finance violation. This was not due to him

1302
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 1: being innocent, but due to some legal weirdness involving the

1303
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:45,400
Speaker 1: letter of the extradition agreement the US signed with the Bahamas. Basically,

1304
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 1: when we put together the agreements that they'd extra died him,

1305
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:51,280
Speaker 1: that was not on the document. So the FEDS had

1306
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:53,479
Speaker 1: to like drop the charge in order to not deal

1307
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 1: with a bunch of other bullshit. It's a technicality, but

1308
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 1: it means that his brother, Gabe and several members of

1309
01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:02,400
Speaker 1: the philanthropic at FTX probably will not be charged for

1310
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:06,120
Speaker 1: very likely committing crimes. And I say they likely committed

1311
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:11,000
Speaker 1: crimes because FTX executive Nashad Singh already pled guilty this

1312
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:15,840
Speaker 1: spring to participating in a straw donor scheme. So he is, yeah,

1313
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:18,760
Speaker 1: and he pled guilty before they dropped this charge, which

1314
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:21,200
Speaker 1: he's got to feel like an asshole for doing because

1315
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 1: now he is going to get punished for that, even

1316
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:25,800
Speaker 1: though SBF is no longer being charged for it.

1317
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 2: Wow, that's I mean. Look, sometimes you do the ethical

1318
01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 2: altruistic thing and it comes back to bite you in

1319
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:33,719
Speaker 2: the ass.

1320
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 1: What do you do? Yeah, what are you going to do? Hey?

1321
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:40,320
Speaker 1: Everyone just wanted to note that since we recorded this,

1322
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 1: the prosecution has noted that they will be seeking to

1323
01:08:43,320 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 1: add those charges back on that were dropped. So it's

1324
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:50,439
Speaker 1: possible that both Sam and other members of his inner

1325
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:53,479
Speaker 1: circle will be charged with all that stuff. We just

1326
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:55,640
Speaker 1: really kind of don't know at this point. But I

1327
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:58,680
Speaker 1: do want to note that the prosecution is at least saying, hey, like,

1328
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:03,320
Speaker 1: despite this little mess up, we are not just giving

1329
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:06,479
Speaker 1: up on this charge. So heads up about that could

1330
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:12,400
Speaker 1: change in the future. Well, Jamie, yeah, how you doing.

1331
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:15,720
Speaker 2: I really well, I have a question for you.

1332
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:17,800
Speaker 1: I have an answer for you.

1333
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:22,120
Speaker 2: Well, I sure fucking hope. So no. My question is

1334
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:25,920
Speaker 2: that I'm curious, what do you see happening here? What

1335
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:28,280
Speaker 2: feels plausible to you at this time.

1336
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:31,160
Speaker 1: You know, I've been seeing a lot of people be like, Oh,

1337
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 1: he's gonna get off, He's gonna get all he's got

1338
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:36,280
Speaker 1: too many connections, too many you know, people who he

1339
01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:38,599
Speaker 1: could roll on. I don't think he has many people

1340
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:41,680
Speaker 1: he could really roll on. I don't think he was like,

1341
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:45,160
Speaker 1: especially since these finance charges have been dropped. I don't

1342
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 1: know that I really think he's got the savvy to

1343
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:53,040
Speaker 1: have like a guy like John McAfee, I believe John

1344
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:55,960
Speaker 1: McAfee killed himself. I don't believe there's anything shady there.

1345
01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:57,720
Speaker 1: I know a lot about the guy. It makes sense

1346
01:09:57,760 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 1: to me that when his fucking running finally stopped, he

1347
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 1: would do that. But McAfee probably did have some dirt

1348
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:07,519
Speaker 1: on some people. He was that kind of cunning, right,

1349
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:10,479
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be shocked if John McAfee had put together

1350
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:13,160
Speaker 1: some dirt on some people, right. I don't think Sam

1351
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:15,479
Speaker 1: Bankman Freed is that cunning. I don't think he was

1352
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:18,400
Speaker 1: like smart enough to have dirt on anyone who could

1353
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 1: get him out of this situation. I think there's a

1354
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:23,760
Speaker 1: pretty good chance he does hard time. I think he

1355
01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 1: fucked with too many people, he fucked with the money,

1356
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:28,400
Speaker 1: and he fucked with it in too dumb of a way.

1357
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:29,479
Speaker 1: So I think he's screwed.

1358
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 2: Okay, that was my instinct as well, because I feel

1359
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:34,599
Speaker 2: like he doesn't even have I mean, he doesn't have

1360
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:38,400
Speaker 2: any sort of like I think sometimes with these types

1361
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:41,120
Speaker 2: you get some sort of press narrative that it's like

1362
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:44,519
Speaker 2: they're playing four D chess, and like, even if that's

1363
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:47,439
Speaker 2: not entirely true, there's like a median narrative that sticks

1364
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:50,240
Speaker 2: to them. That makes them seem more plausible. But I

1365
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:53,160
Speaker 2: just feel like everything that's, like, all of his actions

1366
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:55,840
Speaker 2: and all of the media surrounding him, except for a

1367
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:59,320
Speaker 2: very very small amount, seems to reinforce the fact that

1368
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 2: he's completely incompetent and malicious in every way.

1369
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:10,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I would say that, Well, good.

1370
01:11:11,560 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 2: God, I mean not that I you know, I don't know.

1371
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:17,160
Speaker 2: I mean it seems like he's fucked. I certainly hope

1372
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:17,719
Speaker 2: he's fucked.

1373
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:21,160
Speaker 1: I hope he's fucked. I hate him. I think he's

1374
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 1: a gross person. I hope Will mccaskell goes away or

1375
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:28,000
Speaker 1: gets like eaten by eaten by a large fish would

1376
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:30,719
Speaker 1: be my pick, if I got it. If like God

1377
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:31,720
Speaker 1: is like, what do you want me to do to

1378
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:33,720
Speaker 1: Will mccaskal, I'm like, you, you remember that thing he

1379
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 1: did with a whale back in the day. What if

1380
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 1: he didn't get out? What if a whale just eats him?

1381
01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:38,640
Speaker 4: You know?

1382
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:41,880
Speaker 2: And then God'd be like, oh, amazing. I love playing

1383
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:42,240
Speaker 2: the hits.

1384
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:45,719
Speaker 1: I love great pitch. You know what, Robert, I'm gonna

1385
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 1: give you that HBO series you've been asking for.

1386
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 2: Robert, you were an amazing collaborator.

1387
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:56,799
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Me and God co creators of my HBO series.

1388
01:11:57,120 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 1: I am hoping if the strike goes on, they take

1389
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:02,240
Speaker 1: my reality show Pitch super Soaker full of Piss, which

1390
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:06,200
Speaker 1: I really think has some path Jamie, I mean premises.

1391
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:10,120
Speaker 2: No, go ahead, tell me the promise of super Soaker

1392
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:11,880
Speaker 2: full of piss, Robert. I'm ready.

1393
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:14,599
Speaker 1: So I'm in a van. I filled a super soaker

1394
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:18,080
Speaker 1: with my piss, and I drive around like Rodeo drive,

1395
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:20,479
Speaker 1: and I get out when I see someone who looks

1396
01:12:20,520 --> 01:12:22,880
Speaker 1: famous and I score them with a super soaker full

1397
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:25,600
Speaker 1: of piss, and then we film it and then I

1398
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:26,639
Speaker 1: leave very quickly.

1399
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:29,400
Speaker 2: Okay, I mean I'm on top with that.

1400
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:31,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's a great I think it's good.

1401
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:34,640
Speaker 1: You know, I will get you know, I don't know.

1402
01:12:35,160 --> 01:12:37,280
Speaker 2: I would be kind of pro like if you could

1403
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:39,960
Speaker 2: get I think the soundtrack is going to be really

1404
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:42,160
Speaker 2: key there, Like I think if you could give me

1405
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:44,880
Speaker 2: some like Jock jam situation, like.

1406
01:12:45,680 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 1: This is exciting. All live all live editions of Blink

1407
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:53,439
Speaker 1: one eighty two songs doues, you know, because they they

1408
01:12:53,439 --> 01:12:55,759
Speaker 1: are one of the worst live bands that ever played.

1409
01:12:55,800 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 1: So it's really just upsetting to the to the viewer.

1410
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:02,120
Speaker 1: That's the goal here, and you know.

1411
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:05,160
Speaker 2: Given who blink one eighty two like rolls with these days,

1412
01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:08,559
Speaker 2: you may in fact run into Travis on Rodeo Drive.

1413
01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, utial full.

1414
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:14,120
Speaker 1: Poet right in the face, just just a full load

1415
01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:16,280
Speaker 1: of it, you know, just to say.

1416
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:19,599
Speaker 3: I hate this idea because it means that some fucking

1417
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:23,000
Speaker 3: celebrity will murder you and then we'll be gone, and

1418
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:23,840
Speaker 3: then I'll be sad.

1419
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:27,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest, I'm not great at recognizing celebrities,

1420
01:13:27,200 --> 01:13:29,400
Speaker 1: so I'm anytime I could just see someone in a

1421
01:13:29,439 --> 01:13:32,280
Speaker 1: suit and spray him with the piss. Yeah, Jamie, I

1422
01:13:33,160 --> 01:13:38,600
Speaker 1: know we can sell. No, we just roll down the

1423
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:42,040
Speaker 1: streets and stick Jonas Roberts spray, pray, spray, get the

1424
01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:42,880
Speaker 1: fuck out of here.

1425
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:46,759
Speaker 2: Wow, No Jonas, Robert.

1426
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:49,960
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, that's right. I'm going to rely

1427
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:52,200
Speaker 1: on Jamie to recognize him though.

1428
01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:54,120
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I did see that, Jamie.

1429
01:13:54,840 --> 01:13:58,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, Well the Jonas brothers have their own

1430
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:02,120
Speaker 2: vanity popcorn brand, now, isn't that something? These are the

1431
01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:04,280
Speaker 2: amazing things I can teach you, Robert.

1432
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:09,120
Speaker 1: I've already taught me so much about hot dog through

1433
01:14:09,160 --> 01:14:11,160
Speaker 1: your best selling book Raw Dog.

1434
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:13,799
Speaker 2: Wow. Perfect trans pivot.

1435
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:14,320
Speaker 1: You're welcome.

1436
01:14:14,439 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 2: Let us spicy plug though gorgeous, gorgeous plug. Hey, it's

1437
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:22,000
Speaker 2: never too late to start reading about hot dogs. It's

1438
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:23,920
Speaker 2: never too late, never learning.

1439
01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:30,160
Speaker 1: Reading about hot dogs and also America fascinating story. Raw

1440
01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:32,280
Speaker 1: Dog find it wherever books are found.

1441
01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:37,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thank you so much. I truly I was.

1442
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:41,280
Speaker 2: I mean, as you know, I did a Bastard's episode

1443
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:44,120
Speaker 2: about hot dogs as I was writing that book so

1444
01:14:44,160 --> 01:14:45,920
Speaker 2: that I would remain focused.

1445
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:47,800
Speaker 1: And it's the best way.

1446
01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:52,799
Speaker 2: And I have heard that the subject of that episode, George,

1447
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:57,280
Speaker 2: say that the hot dog eating community is actively protecting

1448
01:14:57,320 --> 01:14:59,679
Speaker 2: him from its existence. He does not know it exists.

1449
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:03,680
Speaker 2: He does not the book. Everyone in his life is

1450
01:15:03,880 --> 01:15:07,920
Speaker 2: really actively try Like every hot dog eater or many

1451
01:15:08,320 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 2: gaters I talked to, We're like, yeah, no, we know

1452
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:13,439
Speaker 2: about the Bastard's episode and we know about the book,

1453
01:15:13,479 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 2: but we really don't want George to know about it.

1454
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:17,320
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, fair.

1455
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:21,800
Speaker 1: Enough, beautiful jam. That made me feel great. You can

1456
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:24,320
Speaker 1: sign up for this show and all other cool Zone

1457
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 1: shows ad free at cooler Zone Media. That's for Apple subscribers.

1458
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:31,200
Speaker 1: We are working on the Android option. You can find

1459
01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:34,320
Speaker 1: my novel After the Revolution, by typing After the Revolution

1460
01:15:34,439 --> 01:15:37,760
Speaker 1: into whatever book buying site you use, or just walk

1461
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:41,680
Speaker 1: into a bookstore and demand it from the manager at

1462
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:47,760
Speaker 1: sword point. Anyway, Goodbye, Goodbye Bye.

1463
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:51,639
Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1464
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:55,280
Speaker 3: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia

1465
01:15:55,439 --> 01:15:58,679
Speaker 3: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1466
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:01,120
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or where you get your podcasts.