1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Unaddiction the Podcast. My name is doctor Enzinga Harrison. 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health. 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery. 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: have helped them along the way, and the formulas that 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time. 9 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: I am so excited to tell you about my book, Unaddictioned. 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: Six mind changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, is 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: now available from Union Squaring Company or wherever books are sold. 12 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: Maya Solovitz is the author, most recently of Undoing Drugs, 13 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: The Untold Story of Harm Reduction and the Future of Addiction, 14 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: which is the first history of the harm reduction move 15 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: aimed at focusing drug policy on minimizing harms, not highs. 16 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: Her previous New York Times bestseller, Unbroken Brain, A Revolutionary 17 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: New Way of Understanding Addiction, wove together neuroscience and social 18 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: science with her own personal experience of heroin addiction. It 19 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: won the twenty eighteen Media Award from the National Institute 20 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: on Drug Abuse, So you can see why we had 21 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: to have her on the Unaddictioned podcast. We dive into 22 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 1: everything from why she never went to prison to why 23 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: she continues to focus her writing and advocacy on addiction 24 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: and harm reduction. Yeah, so glad to have you. Thank 25 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: you so much for joining me here on the Unaddictioned podcast. 26 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 27 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: So I'll set it up for you. On the podcast, 28 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: I'm talking to a bunch of people who've had their 29 00:01:54,920 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: own recovery journey, and just like hope that people can 30 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: hear all of these different pathways to recovery and all 31 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: of these different pieces of formulas that people have and 32 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: maybe it helps them start their journey, or maybe it 33 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: helps them talk to their loved one about it, or 34 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: maybe it gives them an idea for something to add 35 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: to their own formula. So that's the idea. Do you 36 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: mind sharing with us what has your journey been? However 37 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,239 Speaker 1: you want to share that with us? Sure? 38 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 2: So I was basically a very geeky kind of kid who, 39 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,239 Speaker 2: you know, just didn't know how to connect to people basically, 40 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 2: and so I was sort of very into like intellectual obsessions, 41 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 2: like starting with like reading when I was like three, 42 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: and so I was just I was just weird. I 43 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: wasn't interested in the things my peers were interested in, 44 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:58,119 Speaker 2: and I was very oversensitive to lights and sounds and 45 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 2: emotions and all kinds of stuff like this. So I 46 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 2: just appeared like a very strange, smart kid. And so 47 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: you know that that was hard because I did really 48 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: want to connect to people, but I was just kind 49 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: of overwhelmed, and I started thinking that I must be 50 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 2: a bad person because everybody else seems to be able 51 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: to do this naturally, and also like I am selfish 52 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 2: because I need to like control things to keep my 53 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 2: sensory stuff manageable. And so I just kind of spiraled, 54 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 2: and eventually I discovered that drugs were a obsessive interest 55 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 2: that people would want to hear me go on about, 56 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: and that also were helpful in terms of managing some 57 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 2: of this stuff and allowing me to feel connected to people. 58 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 2: And if I had stuck with like weed and psychedelics, 59 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: I would probably have a different career at this time, 60 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: And it was the eighties and cocaine was enormously popular, 61 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: and so I got involved with that, and that kind 62 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 2: of made me feel like, oh, well, people actually want 63 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 2: me around because I can bring them coke, and everybody 64 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 2: wants to coke, so it's all good. And then by 65 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: that point I was at columb University and then I 66 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 2: got well, first I got suspended, then I got arrested, 67 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: and I like eventually got into recovery when I realized that, 68 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 2: you know, shooting up forty times a day and being 69 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 2: eighty pounds was really not especially a great way to live, 70 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: and I just knew I needed something different. So I 71 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 2: had a court date because I was still facing these 72 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 2: drug charges, and my parents got me. They my dad 73 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 2: went to the court date, he took me to my 74 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 2: mom's house. We went and I got into a detox 75 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 2: and then remember this is nineteen eighty eight, there really 76 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 2: wasn't much. 77 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: Available, yeah, and a maybe right, well. 78 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: Basically yeah, So I went to you know, your twenty 79 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 2: eight day twelve step model program, and I was told, 80 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 2: you know, by these apparent medical professionals, that this is 81 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 2: the one true way and everything else doesn't work and 82 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: it's bad. And so I just threw myself into that 83 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 2: and for the first I don't know, five or six years. 84 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,359 Speaker 2: I went to twelve step groups daily and I was 85 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 2: really involved in that, and I thought I knew everything 86 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: about addiction. And then I started reading some of the literature, 87 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: and I had always been a little bit, you know, skeptical. Well, 88 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 2: first of all, I was skeptical of the god thing, 89 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 2: because you know, if you go to treatment for depression, 90 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 2: nobody's going to tell you to like get on your 91 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 2: knees and shut up and pray and find out higher 92 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 2: power and all this stuff, and so that made me skeptical. 93 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 2: But I was just like, okay, whatever, this is what 94 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 2: they say works for this and so lah. But the 95 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: part that really sort of raised my hackles was that 96 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 2: somebody had taught me to clean my needles with bleach 97 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 2: when I was injecting drugs, and that basically saved me 98 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 2: from getting hib And I was really outraged that people 99 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 2: in the Ditions area not only were they not like 100 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 2: telling us, use bleach, you'll be safer, they were just like, 101 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: don't do that, don't teach these people anything. Let them 102 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 2: die as an example. And these are supposed to be 103 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 2: the people you care about if you work in treatment. 104 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 2: But they were literally out there opposing syringe exchange a 105 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 2: lot of the major treatment people, and they were all 106 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 2: on about enabling people and stuff like this, and I 107 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: was like, well, first of all, you guys know that 108 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 2: people relapse all the time. You see this, most of 109 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 2: your people relapse, and so we're supposed to just get 110 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: aids like and infect other people like really, you know, 111 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 2: and at that time, it was incurable and mostly fatal. 112 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 2: So you know, so I got very skeptical very quickly. 113 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 2: And I also annoyed a lot of people in the 114 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: program because I was like, you know, the gay people 115 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 2: are out there doing stuff, why aren't we, like we're 116 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: dying too, and so you know. But anyway, so I basically, 117 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: uh decided that the best way to approach this was 118 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 2: to I had always been interested in journalism and the media, 119 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 2: and I was reasonably good at it. So I basically 120 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 2: got into a career in journalism trying to expose the 121 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 2: myths and ridiculous lies that are so prevalent. And you know, 122 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 2: one of the things they like was first very obvious 123 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: was just how racist it was, because I mean, you know, 124 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 2: I would go to court when I had this cocaine 125 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: case against me, and I was often the only white 126 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: defendant and I was not the only white drug dealer, 127 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 2: so you know, I mean, and it was just like 128 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 2: I was just like why, like what is this, Like 129 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 2: why is this this way? So, you know, I just 130 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 2: started reading a whole lot of stuff and just trying 131 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 2: to understand it, you know, because I think like people 132 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 2: come into this area and they think that, you know, 133 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 2: there's some rationality to it that like these drugs are legal, 134 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 2: and these drugs are illegal because like some scientists sat 135 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 2: down and said, like these are safe, right, and no, 136 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 2: it's just like racism and anti immigrant nonsense, so correct, 137 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 2: you know. So I just like, I, you know, it's 138 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 2: it's kind of fascinating to be in an area where 139 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 2: when you're on the street you learn a whole set 140 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 2: of stuff that's not true. You get taught in drug 141 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: education a whole set of stuff that's not true, in 142 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 2: rehab that a bunch of stuff not true, and so 143 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 2: the only way in the media. 144 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: On TV and news and movies and documentaries even you 145 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: learn a bunch of stuff that's not true exactly. 146 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 3: And so like I was just like, okay, like can 147 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 3: we do something about this, because if we actually want 148 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 3: to solve this problem rather than like have an excuse 149 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 3: to like lock up black people, then. 150 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: We like we need more excuses. 151 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 2: But it's just like, you know, I mean, I've just 152 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 2: been like especially ours lately with this debate over decriminalization, 153 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 2: where people are like, oh, you know, well we need 154 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,839 Speaker 2: to threat of jail to get people into treatment, and 155 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: I'm like, wait a minute, Okay, So this means black 156 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: people must get the best treatment and they must have 157 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 2: like the best access to care, and now that they 158 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 2: are less likely to get treatment because they have fewer resources, 159 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 2: you know, again, like it's just none of this stuff 160 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 2: is logical. None of this stuff makes any sense, and 161 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 2: you know it, especially with the arguments over decriminalization lately, 162 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 2: it's just like, you know, wait a minute, okay, you mean, 163 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 2: fentanyl spread all over the country, and everywhere fentanyl goes, 164 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 2: overdose rates rise, but this is suddenly caused, like all 165 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 2: the homelessness in the United States is because there are 166 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 2: hippies in San Francisco and decriminalization in Oregon, and it's like, 167 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 2: you know, we just kind of had a pandemic. Maybe 168 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: that has something to do with what's going on, but yeah, 169 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 2: it's like the politicization of this stuff is infuriating. 170 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love you. I love so many things. Okay, 171 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: so I'm gonna try to touch on like all of 172 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: the ways. I was over here shouting a man while 173 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: you were talking. So like the first starting with your 174 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: own journey into drugs, I always say, drugs serve a purpose. 175 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: We use drugs because they serve a purpose. And if 176 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,359 Speaker 1: we're trying to help people find their path to recovery 177 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 1: and stay on their recovery path, you have to know 178 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: what purpose those drugs were serving, and you have to 179 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: get that purpose another way. And so for you, like 180 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: in the book and just in life period, in the 181 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: way I practice medicine and do my advocacy and all 182 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: of this, it's like we are pack animals and we 183 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: need that connection, and so drugs became that conduit for 184 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: you to make that connection. And then as you get 185 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: into treatment, So that's like a huge one. Connection is 186 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: the literal cure, right, if we're looking for a cure 187 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: for addiction. Connection is the literal cure comes straight into 188 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: what you were saying next Maya, which is like you're 189 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: in all these rooms and you're thinking about all of 190 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: the way we're explicitly excluding people, but then also all 191 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: of the way implicitly we're saying we don't care if 192 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: you die. Like when I describe harm reduction to people, 193 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, in a nutshell, harm reduction is like, even 194 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: though you use drugs, we don't want you to die. 195 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: In a nutshell, that's what it is. And so like, 196 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: if you can fix your mouth to look a person's 197 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: child in the face who was suffering and say you 198 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: should die because you're using drugs, that's what you're doing 199 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: when you oppose harm reduction. 200 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 201 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I love your love. Your started out before 202 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: we were taping. I was like, I'm such a fan 203 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: because you take really this what to me, I'm a 204 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: lay person, Okay, so like if this is wrong, maya 205 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: just be like ending and that's wrong. You don't know 206 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: what you're talking about. But to a lay person, what 207 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: looks like an investigative journalistic approach, which is like I 208 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: call bs on this that you call a fact, Here's 209 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: why that's actually not even true. This that you call 210 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: a fact. Here why that's bs. This that you call 211 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: a fact, here's why that's racism. This that you call 212 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: a fact, Here's why that's right. And I'm just like 213 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: I follow your writing so close. 214 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 2: Thank you No, I mean, it's really it's just like 215 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 2: it's so it's so distressing to see so many people 216 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 2: think that they know what's going on and think that 217 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 2: they're doing the right thing and think that they you know, 218 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 2: I mean, I kind of describe it as like, you know, 219 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 2: a lot of journalists who cover this area, like they 220 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 2: have this attitude of everything I need to know about 221 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 2: drugs I learned and dare you know, it's like they 222 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 2: do not like they do not know what they don't know, 223 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 2: and that gets in the way of so many things. 224 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 2: Like when you look at like people trying to cover 225 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 2: harm reduction, they're like, well, oh, but isn't this enabling people? Well, 226 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 2: enabling is a made up thing, like codependence is a 227 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 2: made up thing. Like human beings are interdependent, like you 228 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: just said, we're pack animals, Like we are social fundamentally, 229 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 2: and like we're all connected. And so the idea that 230 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: like anybody is independent and that any human being can 231 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: be happy with zero human connection, it's just not true. 232 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 2: Like we're just not wired that way. Like even people 233 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 2: who are on the authism spectrum like me, who probably 234 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 2: need a lot less social contact than other people, still 235 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 2: need social contact and Yeah, it just is so hard 236 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 2: because when you think you know something, you don't bother 237 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 2: to check it, and yes, to check things, because in 238 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: this area, so much of what would be taught is 239 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 2: really not true, and it's just in fact the opposite 240 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 2: to the case, like you know, this whole tough love 241 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 2: thing when we talk about harm reduction, which is kind 242 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 2: of the opposite of that. It's basically like, you know 243 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: that you're a human being, and we know that, Like 244 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: if we treat you as a human being with like 245 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 2: dignity and respect, you will feel cared for. And if 246 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: you feel like worthwhile and cared for, you will be 247 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 2: much more likely to take care of yourself be or 248 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 2: not much more likely to be like yeah, I'm gonna 249 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 2: go like get as messed up as possible, like you know, 250 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 2: because why are people seeking oblivion? Like you know, now, 251 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 2: not everybody was seeking oblivion, Like some people just want 252 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 2: to Like for my case, I didn't want to be unconscious. 253 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 2: I wanted to be like conscious in a better way 254 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 2: and like sort of more safely conscious. Some people, Yeah, 255 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 2: wives are so miserable that they want to be out 256 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 2: and you know, so trying to make their life more miserable. 257 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 2: That is not going to fix. 258 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: That, right, that is going to make it worse. I 259 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: heard this beautiful quote. It was twenty nineteen. I was 260 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: at a conference in North Carolina, I can't remember. It 261 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: was an opioid conference, and Monique Tula at that time 262 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: was executive director of the National Harm Reduction Coalition, and 263 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: she said, harm reduction is the practice of unconditional love 264 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: for people who use drugs. And that just crawled inside 265 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: my heart and soul and I have been saying it 266 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: ever since, because harm reduction is the practice of unconditional 267 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: love for people who use drugs. I recently had a 268 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: colleague who was trying to get their head around harm reduction. 269 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: So I co founded this company is called Eleanor Health. 270 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: We serve people who have addiction at all phases of 271 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: the illness, including during active use, which is not heard 272 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: of right in a treatment setting typically, So we have 273 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: integrated the principles of harm reduction actually into the care 274 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: journey that we offer people. And so this person said, 275 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on harm reduction? And I said, 276 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: every day that my child is alive is another chance. 277 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: That's my thoughts on harm reduction period, right, And so 278 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: like you said, I don't think the people who are 279 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: in opposition, I don't think they literally are like just die. 280 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: I think they really think they're doing the best. And 281 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: to your point, when we have facts that are wrong 282 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: that we don't challenge, that's when the danger comes in. 283 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and I mean I do think on you know, 284 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 2: so many people on you're taught in you know, the 285 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 2: twelve step rooms and in popular culture and all over 286 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 2: the place that you know, people don't get better until 287 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 2: they hit bottom. And you know, even AA knew that 288 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 2: that was a problematic idea back in the day because 289 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 2: they have this whole high bottom and low bottom thing, right, 290 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 2: and they were like, you know, on action. And when 291 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 2: you get into that then it starts to become a 292 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 2: very silly concept because you realize, oh, we can only 293 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 2: define this retrospectively when somebody's got better, So their bottom 294 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 2: might be you know, like stubbing their toe or something, 295 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 2: and that's what they decide to recover, where somebody else 296 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 2: is like dead or somebody you know, you just don't 297 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: know until they've either died in recovery or died using. 298 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 2: So it's not useful scientifically at all. But it's also 299 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 2: like bad because it sort of brings this idea that like, 300 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 2: negative consequences are ultimately what fixes a dick, And by definition, 301 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 2: addiction is compulsive drug used despite negative consequences, So by definition, 302 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 2: that's not what fixes it. Otherwise, by definition, it wouldn't exist, right, Yeah, 303 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 2: it's so filled with paradox. But anyway, like you know, 304 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: some people do get better when things are horrible. But 305 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 2: if you look at it, who's more likely to get better? 306 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 2: A person who has resources or a person who doesn't. 307 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 2: And that's the argument, all the argument you need against 308 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 2: the whole bottom idea. You know, there's no disease where 309 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 2: you are much more likely to get better if you're poor, 310 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 2: and you know, not one. Yeah, you know, I mean 311 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 2: and not addiction especially, you know, and that obviously does 312 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 2: not mean that poor people cannot recover, because we know many. 313 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: It's the system, it's not the people exactly. 314 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 2: You know, we need to like recognize that, like addiction 315 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 2: is like any other condition, and people respond better to 316 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 2: like love and kindness than they do to humiliation when punishment. 317 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, what other illness? So we're like, Okay, you're sick, 318 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: you're struggling, you're suffering, So I'm going to be mean 319 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: to you, to help you get better. It doesn't make 320 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 1: any sense. 321 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 2: No, The only other one that I can think of 322 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 2: these days is chronic pain, and we're treating people with 323 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 2: chronic pain at least as bad as we are treating 324 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 2: people with addictions. Case it's you know, and it's it's 325 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 2: like wait a minute, like why can't we hold in 326 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 2: our head? Some people do benefit from opioid, some people 327 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 2: do not. The people who do should be left alone. 328 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 2: The other people should be given help, Like not that hard? 329 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So you made me. I always at 330 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: the beginning of every show, I say, Enzinga, don't forget 331 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: to say and then I never say it because we 332 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: just jump right in and I remember at some point 333 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: in the middle. So here we are at the point 334 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: in the middle where I'm remembering. I'm going to ask 335 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: you at the end, what is one thing you want 336 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: people to unlearn, or one stigma you want people to undo, 337 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 1: or one conversation you want people to uncover. I'm going 338 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: to ask you that at the end. What made me 339 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: think of it was you said, you know, people really 340 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: think that folks don't recover from addiction, And the current 341 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: statistic is that seventy five percent of people recover, and 342 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,959 Speaker 1: that's with a system that sucks. So imagine what it 343 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: could be. Right, So let me turn this into a 344 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: question for you, Maya, when you think about your recovery today, 345 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: what are the pieces of your formula that make that 346 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: reduced risk of relapse of this illness called addiction for you? 347 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 2: So it's you know, my friends, my husband, my. 348 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: Cats, connection, connection, connection. 349 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 2: I love my kitties and my husband and my friends, 350 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 2: my family. Obviously music, just music. Oh oh my god. 351 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 2: What kind of kitty is that? 352 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: This is icy? So we have always been a dog family. 353 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: He's a little Siberian kitty. He's like ten weeks old now. 354 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: He followed my niece home from the bus stop two 355 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: years ago. We've always had dogs and now we have 356 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: this little kiddy and he's the love of all of 357 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,199 Speaker 1: our lives. So when you said your cat, I was like, 358 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: I feel what you mean. He's sitting and he's sleeping 359 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: in the chair behind me. 360 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 2: Gorgeous. 361 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 1: But I'm sorry, go ahead, your husband and your friends, your. 362 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 2: Kids, two cats, and the you know music I like 363 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 2: surprisingly these days, like working out, you know, it's just 364 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 2: like and obviously I have to say, like just my 365 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: work and the passionate feeling I have around trying to 366 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 2: do something that makes a difference, and you know, being 367 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 2: able to have a voice in this situation to some 368 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 2: extent at least. So you know, all of that is 369 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 2: just really amazing. And it's just been so nice to 370 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 2: you know, be able to realize that, hey, actually people 371 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 2: do like you. You're not a horrible person. You can 372 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 2: contribute to off, you can do stuff that you know, 373 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: I mean, sometimes I feel like nobody's listening, but oh 374 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 2: we are listening, thanks, so you know, and yeah, just 375 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 2: to be also just be able to do like fun 376 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 2: things like listen to music. And I'm slowly beginning to 377 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 2: learn to like play music. So this is exciting to 378 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 2: have the opportunities to do these things. And and you know, 379 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 2: I just feel enormously grateful that, uh, you know, I've 380 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 2: been able to sort of find my way to this. 381 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 2: And I should also mention that antidepressants have been really 382 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 2: helpful to me. And I've been on like prozec and 383 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 2: Walbutrin for like ages. And I have no intention of 384 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 2: breaking messing anything up it's working. I'm not going to 385 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: mess with it if it stops working. Then I'll deal. 386 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: And I say that because like so many times, like 387 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 2: people on you know, mesadone or people morphine or whatever, 388 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 2: like feel like, oh, I'm not really really recovery because 389 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 2: I'm still taking something, and I'm like the heck with that, 390 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 2: Like I don't see it as being any different, Dislike. 391 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: Yes you are. 392 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, this allows me to like not be so overwhelmed 393 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 2: by the sensory stuff that has previously made it very 394 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 2: hard to be me. I don't see that as an issue. 395 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 2: I see that as something that's been very helpful. And 396 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 2: I think that, you know, while it's obviously super important 397 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 2: connection and meaning and purpose and all of that, sometimes 398 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: you can't get to that if you don't have the 399 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 2: appropriate therapy or the appropriate medication or whatever it is 400 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 2: for you. So it's it's like, definitely you need love, 401 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: but sometimes all you need isn't love. Sometimes you need 402 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 2: a little more And that's okay too. 403 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that entire line. I want to go 404 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: down it a bit. So we talk about biological, psychological, 405 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: and environmental, and the six conversations are like, there's a 406 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: set of biological things you're born into, psychological things you're 407 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: born into. That's like your early childhood environmental things you're 408 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: born into. That's like your zip code where you grow up. 409 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: And then there are set of biological, psychological, and environmental 410 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: factors as we're adults that we have more control over 411 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: to change those because they're happening in real time. But 412 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: those things that we grew up with are also still 413 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: exerting effect and we have to put pieces in the 414 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,199 Speaker 1: formula that address those things. So to your point, we 415 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: don't put any stigma around it when love is not 416 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: enough for your diabetes, and we don't put any stigma 417 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: around it with love is not enough for your asthma. Right, So, like, 418 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: if you're on an asthma regimen that's working, and we 419 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: know there are biological, psychological, and environmental inputs to asthma, 420 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 1: nobody's going to pressure you to change your medication routine 421 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: when your asthma is controlled. To the contrary, they're like, 422 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: why would you break it? No, what's the saying, why 423 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: would you fix it if it's not broken? And yet 424 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: this is what we're doing because people don't understand substance 425 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: use just orders an addiction as a chronic medical condition. 426 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, no, And I mean I get it that, 427 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 2: Like you know, the way we do medication in this 428 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 2: country is horrible pain in the butt, especially with methadone. 429 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 2: I would really want, you know, I hope that we 430 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 2: are going to begin to reform this system. Yes, it 431 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 2: is ridiculously you know, overregulated, and it is crazy that 432 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 2: people you know, have to go every day for as 433 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 2: long as they do, or like sometimes. 434 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: People with the least resources by the way, right because 435 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: people with resources are not taking methadone. 436 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 2: No, and I mean there's that, and or they're getting 437 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 2: it for. 438 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: Pain from the pharmacy with a prescription. 439 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 2: Yes, it's crazily over It makes it into basically chemical probation. 440 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 2: And I don't I wouldn't judge anybody for like wanting 441 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 2: to be off of that as quickly as possible, even 442 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 2: though staying on that or UB is the only thing 443 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 2: we know that cuts the death rate in half. What 444 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 2: we should be doing is encouraging people to be staying 445 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 2: on and to be have access that is not stigmatizing 446 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 2: to just go to the doctor, you know, go to 447 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 2: the doctor, go to the pharmacy, get your drugs whatever. 448 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 2: And I get it that, like, you know, when methodone 449 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 2: needs to be prescribed carefully because it is really strong 450 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 2: and it naive. People can die on it quite easily, 451 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 2: and doctors have killed people with it trying to treat 452 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 2: pain and not understanding how to use it. So it 453 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 2: does need a little bit more regulation than well. 454 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: The same is true though for fit Andal. 455 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah, no, not like I am not saying that 456 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 2: like that means like we should, Like, you know, if 457 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 2: you get surgery of just jump in a clinic every 458 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 2: I don't. 459 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: Know, you have to show up every day, you know, No, 460 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: I mean. 461 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 2: It's just ridiculous. You know, the understanding how to use 462 00:26:53,760 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 2: these medications properly is important, not creating situations where doctors 463 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 2: or clinics or whoever just have this horrible power relationship 464 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 2: with patients where you know, it's like, oh, well I'm 465 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 2: in a bad room, so you can't go on vacation. 466 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 2: I'm not giving me take homes like this happens. 467 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: I know. I had a lady that wanted to switch 468 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: from methadone to buper norphan. We were able to do 469 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: it for her and she ultimately did great, even though 470 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: that is a super hard switch to make, but she 471 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: had been on methodone completely utterly stable, completely negative drug 472 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: screens working grandchildren, the whole I'm talking about, like life 473 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: is together minus chronic back pain and chronic sedation from 474 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 1: the methodone. So she wants to make a switch to 475 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: buper Norphan. Six years she's been stable at the same clinic. 476 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: They still have her on every two weeks take homes, 477 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: So every two weeks she has to drive an hour 478 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: and forty five minutes there to get a two week 479 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: supply an hour forty five minutes back. And she said, 480 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: if they knew I wanted to switch to buper Norphan, 481 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 1: they would cut my dosing immediately. So we had to 482 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: be so strategic because I didn't want to give her 483 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: a break and like have her have withdrawal in the middle, right, 484 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,239 Speaker 1: We had to be so strategic. It was like what 485 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: day do you pick up your dosing. I had to 486 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: try to taper down her Methodone within the two week 487 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: dosin that they had given her cross her over to 488 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: the Buper Norphan. It was totally not an ideal crossover strategy, 489 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: purely because to exactly your words, the system had so 490 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: much power over that methodone dosing and she had been 491 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: stayable for six years. 492 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 2: No, it's like I mean, I you know, and I 493 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 2: hear this like with pain patients where I'm a pain 494 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 2: patient that I know like tested positive for heroin and 495 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 2: never did heroin and got like cut off. Yeah, this 496 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 2: woman is an agony for like no reason. 497 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and even if she had done here. 498 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 2: Exactly, like people still have pain, Like, it's not like yeah, 499 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 2: the whole thing. And I mean, I think this sort 500 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 2: of goes back to that fundamental legal problem that we 501 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 2: have in this country where we had Supreme Court decisions 502 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 2: in like nineteen nineteen and around then where it was 503 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 2: basically like, it is not a legitimate part of medicine 504 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 2: to prescribe opioids to people with opiodus disorder, or cocaine 505 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,239 Speaker 2: to people with cocaine or whatever. You know, that is 506 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 2: just we are deciding, because we are white men, that 507 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 2: this is not okay. And literally there was no actual 508 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 2: reasoning in the decision. They were like, well, it's obviously immoral, 509 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 2: and okay, I'll yes to you maybe, but you know, 510 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 2: that decision means that doctors treating pain are always terrified 511 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 2: that the cops are going to come and say, actually, 512 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 2: that person is predicted and now you are doing something 513 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 2: illegal and we're going to take your license and it 514 00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 2: put you in jail. And you know, until very recently 515 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 2: there was a Supreme Court decision that said, like, no, 516 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 2: you cannot. If you're going to prosecute a doctor for 517 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 2: over prescribing, you have to prove that they had criminal intent. 518 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: You cannot just say that like, oh, they're outside the 519 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 2: CDC guidelines, therefore it's criminal. Like they accidentally name a 520 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 2: drug dealer when their patient was overweight and needed a 521 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 2: hire dose. 522 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: Right, I was getting a license in a state and 523 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: there were a couple of different ones, So I won't 524 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: call the exact state just in case I get it wrong, 525 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: because I wouldn't if I was this state. I wouldn't 526 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: want anybody saying this about me wrong. But so I'm 527 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: taking like the test that you have to take to 528 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: get your license to be a physician in this state 529 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,479 Speaker 1: and tells you like about the state laws. And it's like, 530 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: if you're treating a person for paying disorder and there 531 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: you're in drug screen is positive for an illicit substance 532 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: or you have concern that they're diverting medication that you're prescribing, 533 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: what are you legally required to do? And I just 534 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: refuse to get the question right because I just refused 535 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: to put the answer that I knew was the answer. 536 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: It was called the police and make a report. 537 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 2: Are you kidding me? 538 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I am not kidding. And I was like, 539 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: I refuse, like I will just get this answer wrong 540 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: because I refuse to say that that's the right answer, 541 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: because that's not the right answer. But it is. Literally, 542 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: this is the programming. It's coded into the test that 543 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: physicians take to get a license in that state to 544 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: criminal and out criminalize people that have substance use disorders. 545 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: It's wild, Okay, Okay, isn't that crazy? Okay? I want 546 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: to change. I want to change Lane. I felt myself 547 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: getting on a soapbox and we're going to be on 548 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: that the rest of the show. I wanted to click 549 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: in Maya, if it's okay, You've mentioned a couple of 550 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: times that you have autism spectrum disorder, and you described 551 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: it before you called it that as being very sensory 552 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: sensitive and having difficulty connecting with people socially and feeling 553 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: ostracized even by yourself and by other people, and so 554 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: I then you said something that really caught my ear. 555 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: When you don't know about it, you don't ask and 556 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: so I think one of the assumptions people make about 557 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: people with autism spectrum disorders is that you don't need 558 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: the connection or you don't want the human connection. And 559 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: then when I asked about your recovery formula, that was 560 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: number one, two and three. So I think it would 561 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: be super helpful for people listening who maybe have had 562 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: a similar experience to you, but no one has told 563 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: them these are symptoms of autoism spectrum disorder. And you're 564 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: wonderful and great and you know to be loved and 565 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: we understand this connection. So maybe can you just talk 566 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: to us about how you came to understand and that 567 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: how you came to be on prozac and Will Butcher 568 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: and whatever else went into you being in this comfortable 569 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: space with yourself that you seem to be in now. 570 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, So the I saw an article in New 571 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 2: York Times and it was at the time called Aspergers, 572 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 2: which apparently we now know the guy was affiliated with 573 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 2: the Nazis in some ways, so it should not be 574 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 2: called that anymore. There some people dispute this. Other people 575 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 2: are like, no, he like some people were saying, oh, 576 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 2: he protected the people that he was seeing and tried 577 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,239 Speaker 2: to keep them away from the camps or you know, 578 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 2: being killed. Others are like, no, no, he was part 579 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:38,719 Speaker 2: of I don't know. 580 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: All I know is that I had no idea that 581 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: was why we stopped calling it Asperger's Like I knew 582 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: we stopped, but I did not know that. Yeah, so 583 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: oh now I gotta go check the facts. 584 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 2: But the funny thing, yeah, I like, I mean, there's 585 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 2: definitely still some dispute over this, although I think side 586 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 2: that says he's actually a Nazi is winning the the 587 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 2: So there was this article New York Times about this condition, 588 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 2: and it stuck with me in part because there was 589 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 2: a very silly part of it where like this wife 590 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 2: was married to the guy with it, and when he 591 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 2: would be acting particularly asked, being a very kind of 592 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: anti social way, she would call him an ass burger, 593 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 2: and it was it was a little joke between them. 594 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 2: But anyway, like I was just like, wow, like that's me, 595 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 2: Like I have like all that stuff. I'd maybe heard 596 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 2: about autism before, like maybe you know, in this sort 597 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 2: of stereotypical like rain Man thing or just like somebody 598 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 2: who is like just very very severely disabled. So you know, 599 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 2: I was just like, oh wow, that's like interesting, and 600 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 2: then like the antidepressants didn't explicitly get prescribed for the 601 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 2: sensory stuff, it was because I actually was depressed, probably 602 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 2: in part from all the self hatred this other stuff. 603 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 2: But it seemed to me that like it just like 604 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 2: like one of the things that I found really helpful 605 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 2: with the opiates was like it just turns the volume 606 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 2: down and it's like less, you know. And and with 607 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 2: SSRIs in particular, I found that like, yeah, it's just 608 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 2: like I'm less anxious for one, but I'm just like 609 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 2: not also so like you know, vulnerable to like sounds 610 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 2: and lights and just intensity. I always get into arguments 611 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 2: with people who are like, you know, oh, like, look 612 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 2: the data shows that the SSRIs are all Perceibo now, 613 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 2: and I'm like, you can't tell me it's Perceibo on 614 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 2: the sensory stuff because it just isn't. But also, like 615 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,479 Speaker 2: you know, you first told me when this stuff first 616 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 2: came out, it was like this miracle drug and made 617 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 2: me better than well then you told me about no. 618 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 2: But wait, then I was supposed to be making made 619 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 2: into a serial killer or mass shoot or something, and 620 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 2: you know what the thing is, I actually think it 621 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 2: can be all three, like, because people's responses to these 622 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 2: things are so varied, and I have seen people on 623 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 2: the wrong medication like they might become suicidal or even 624 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 2: like homicide, you know, and I've seen people on the 625 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 2: right medication is just oh it works, like you know, 626 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 2: and I've seen people have just nothing effect. So I think, 627 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 2: I am I am not a doctor, but I imagine anybody 628 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 2: in practice who like sees a lot of people on 629 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 2: these different psychiatric medications just knows how widely individualized the 630 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,959 Speaker 2: response is. And so when you have to look at 631 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,800 Speaker 2: like clinical trials, it makes analyzing the data really hard 632 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 2: and like you know, when you you know, but I 633 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 2: think what sometimes happens is like you get like a 634 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,399 Speaker 2: large proportion doing better and a large proportion doing worse, 635 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 2: and looks like placebo because by the numbers they average out. 636 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 2: So but the individual people are experiencing harm or benefit. 637 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 2: And so you know, that is where I guess medicine 638 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 2: has a bit of an art as opposed to just science. 639 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,760 Speaker 2: But yeah, so I mean, but so that was basically 640 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 2: for me, and I just like, over time, just read 641 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 2: a lot and talked to a lot of people, and 642 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 2: you know, began to understand that. Yeah, Okay, as like, 643 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 2: because I had just had all these other diagnoses like 644 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 2: OCD and like depression and addiction, and I even once 645 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 2: got bipolar, which I don't think was correct, but but 646 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 2: this one like actually made sense of all the weird 647 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 2: symptoms like as well as some of the you know, 648 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 2: I'm usually like you know, very early reading and being 649 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 2: very intellectual, you know, very obsessive, but also like I 650 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 2: probably could also be called ADHD. I have a lot 651 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 2: a lot of focus on the stuff that I'm focused 652 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 2: on though, so that had been like really disability for me. 653 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 2: I can see how in different circumstances that might have 654 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 2: become that way, especially if I didn't have something that 655 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 2: I was sort of obsessively interested in. 656 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. I really loved the way you told that story, 657 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: because I think this is why this book is about 658 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 1: having conversations and this podcast is about having conversations. Because 659 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 1: even though that New York Times article wasn't a person 660 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: you talked to, so not you know, quote unquote a conversation, 661 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: it was somebody talking about an experience, and you saw 662 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: yourself in it, and that was the beginning of like 663 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,439 Speaker 1: a journey to healing and recovery. And so that's why 664 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,879 Speaker 1: stigma is so deadly when we stay silent the way 665 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: we used to stay silent about AHIV. We started talking 666 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 1: about HIV, we got to a cure. We used to 667 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 1: stay silent about epilepsy. We started talking about epilepsy, we 668 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: get to treatment. We used to stay silent about suicide. 669 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: We're talking about suicide. We're still at all time highs, 670 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 1: but at least we're talking about it in practicing prevention 671 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: so that we can start going the same way. And 672 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: so like same thing that I'm hoping for addiction, And 673 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: I think we have started talking about addiction in a 674 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: way we weren't before, and the people with addiction in 675 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: a way that we weren't before. That I hope is 676 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 1: like going to help us set on a different trajectory. Yeah, 677 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,399 Speaker 1: so God bless that New York Times ar No, No, I. 678 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 2: Mean I should look it up, you know. I do 679 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,359 Speaker 2: think also one of the things that actually makes on 680 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,280 Speaker 2: twelve step programs and just anywhere where people just share 681 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 2: their personal experiences about things really powerful for a lot 682 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,839 Speaker 2: of people is that you get to hear, you know, 683 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 2: other people on you know, who've been through things that 684 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,439 Speaker 2: you might have been through or have looked through things 685 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 2: in a slightly different way. And you know, I definitely 686 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 2: benefited from hearing people in twelve step meetings just talk 687 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 2: about like the ways that they saw themselves that were 688 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 2: completely we obviously wrong from the outside. All right, right, 689 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,360 Speaker 2: so you were a gorgeous model. You are not ugly 690 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 2: like you know, and I'm like, well, then maybe I'm 691 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,280 Speaker 2: not a horrible person the way I think I am either. 692 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 2: You know, I came to the conclusion that the wrong 693 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 2: people hate themselves. 694 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm just gonna let that one lay right there. 695 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: It took me a second. I was like, oh, I 696 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,719 Speaker 1: get it. Yes, so this is so wild. Okay, we're 697 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: forty seven minutes in, which means we're at the end. 698 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: So thank you for like being such an amazing conversation 699 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 1: that it's already over when it feels like it just started. 700 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,360 Speaker 1: So let's roll into what I promised would be the 701 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: last question, which is, and it doesn't have to be 702 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: one thing. You could tell us whatever you want to 703 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: tell us, maya, but something we need to unlearn, or 704 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: some stigma we need to undo, or some conversation we 705 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 1: need to uncover that based on your personal and professional 706 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: experience would get us on the right track. 707 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 2: Well, there's a couple of things here, and I've stressed 708 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,320 Speaker 2: them a little bit earlier, but I still think it's important. 709 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 2: Tough love, uh uh love love. 710 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: You know, oh zero stars. 711 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 2: Secondly, and I mean again, this doesn't mean that you 712 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 2: don't hold people accountable when they need to be held accountable. 713 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 2: It just means that you don't be mean to somebody 714 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,280 Speaker 2: as a way of helping them. Like that does not help. 715 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 2: Similarly with enabling, like you know, if prescribing heroin, we 716 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 2: looked at the data. When you prescribe heroin, it does 717 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 2: not keep people in active addiction longer than if you 718 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 2: just leave them alone. So therefore enabling cannot be true 719 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 2: because free heroin like that should you know, be the 720 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 2: most enably enabling thing. 721 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,880 Speaker 1: You could do, the most enabling. 722 00:41:58,360 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 2: I know, I just made that up. 723 00:41:59,680 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: You know. 724 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 2: No, it's just like and hitting bottom. All of these 725 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 2: things have got to go. These are not useful to 726 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,720 Speaker 2: helping people get better, Like what is useful to helping 727 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 2: get people get better from addiction is what is useful 728 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,959 Speaker 2: to helping people get better from just about anything, which 729 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 2: is like support and resources and kindness and you know, 730 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 2: figuring out why people you know, you started with this 731 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 2: like this idea that like, you know, people take drugs 732 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 2: for reasons, why what is this doing for them? Or 733 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 2: what were they trying to get from it? Maybe they're 734 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,320 Speaker 2: no longer getting it now, but what were they trying 735 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 2: to get from it? And how do we get them 736 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 2: to have that? Because you know, the reason that we're 737 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 2: having so much addiction now and such crisis with like 738 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 2: a really unequal world is that this you know, inequality 739 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 2: like tears us apart from each other and polarizes and 740 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 2: it even makes rich people unhappy. It doesn't like it's 741 00:42:55,719 --> 00:43:00,360 Speaker 2: not healthy, and so you know, we shouldn't be surprise 742 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,279 Speaker 2: like if we lose our middle class that we are 743 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 2: going to like have a lot of unhappy people and 744 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 2: they're going to use drugs. So we need to like 745 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,879 Speaker 2: make this place better by making it more equal, by 746 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 2: you know, spreading the wealth a little bit, because this 747 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 2: is absolutely concentration is just crazy, and you know, I 748 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 2: just sometimes think about it. It's like, you know, some 749 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 2: people like they could like literally give every person one 750 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,839 Speaker 2: hundred dollars and they'd still have money. Like that's like 751 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 2: nobody should have that amount of money. I know that 752 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 2: sounds kind of disconnected from this, but it isn't because 753 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,960 Speaker 2: when when we let things go to the point where 754 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 2: that like they are now, our politics gets into this 755 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,719 Speaker 2: horror that we're seeing now are and we can't deal 756 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,799 Speaker 2: with the environment, We can't like our medical system is 757 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 2: falling to pieces. 758 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:50,279 Speaker 1: You know. 759 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,400 Speaker 2: Meanwhile, it's like, and what's so annoying about it is 760 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 2: that like we actually know how to solve a lot 761 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 2: of these problems, actually know what could help, and it 762 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:03,799 Speaker 2: actually wouldn't even there would still be rich people, you know. 763 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,360 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just like you just want it to 764 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,880 Speaker 2: be that greedy, right. This is a little bit oversimplified, 765 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,359 Speaker 2: but I think that we can do a lot better 766 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 2: in the way that we structure our society in order 767 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:21,800 Speaker 2: to have it be a kinder place that produces lessening. 768 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,840 Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. So I would recap 769 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,320 Speaker 1: that as you were talking, I like envisioned a big, 770 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 1: huge burning trash can that you were throwing things in, 771 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:42,280 Speaker 1: and you're like, we're throwing tough love in the trash, 772 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 1: replacing it with compassion, throwing this concept of enabling, like 773 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,400 Speaker 1: you have to disconnect from people throwing it in the trash, 774 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,880 Speaker 1: replacing it with connection, throwing rock Bottom in the trash, 775 00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,719 Speaker 1: set fire on it. I guess that it makes sense. 776 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,839 Speaker 1: It set it on fire, whatever order the words are 777 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,799 Speaker 1: supposed to come in. Yes, it's in the trash, it's 778 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,000 Speaker 1: burning right, It's like get to the root cause, which 779 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 1: I think was your last sentence, which was so beautiful, 780 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,879 Speaker 1: and we can end on it, which is we have 781 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:19,280 Speaker 1: to restructure these communities we're living in and these cultures 782 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,840 Speaker 1: we're living in to be kinder, and that would produce 783 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: less addiction. I would say they heard it here first, 784 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 1: but you've been like so vocal in writing about this 785 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 1: all day every day that that would just not be true. 786 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: But I'm so so grateful that you came on, Maya. 787 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:36,880 Speaker 1: This was amazing. 788 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 2: That was thanks No, really great to talk to you 789 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,400 Speaker 2: as well. We should do this again sometime. 790 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,839 Speaker 1: We should thank you. Thank you so much for tuning in. 791 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: And if you like this episode, please check out my 792 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:52,600 Speaker 1: book on addiction, Six Mind Changing Conversations that Could Save 793 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,920 Speaker 1: a Life, available at Barnes Andnoble, Bookshop, dot Org, Union 794 00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:01,400 Speaker 1: Squaring Company, Amazon, and wherever books are sold. If you 795 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,759 Speaker 1: liked this episode, please share it with someone you think 796 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,880 Speaker 1: may need to hear it. Also, please subscribe to this 797 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 1: podcast and leave a five star review that helps us 798 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,320 Speaker 1: reach any and everyone who may be looking for support 799 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:15,600 Speaker 1: in the face of addiction.