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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for

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Speaker 2: the future of this show.

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Speaker 3: This is the only place where you can find honest

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Speaker 3: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does

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Speaker 3: not exist anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please

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Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and

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Speaker 2: you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad free

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Speaker 2: and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

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Speaker 3: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 3: news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints

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Speaker 3: dot com.

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Speaker 1: Our good morning and welcome to Counterpoints.

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Speaker 4: And it was our first show since Thanksgiving. Hope it

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Speaker 4: was a good one.

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Speaker 1: We've missed a lot since then.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, the news just doesn't stop.

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Speaker 1: It's really not.

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Speaker 5: We thought it would get better when the election was over,

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Speaker 5: but no. Yeah, you can never get off this ride.

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Speaker 1: No chance.

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Speaker 4: So I mean today, obviously we're we're gonna start by

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Speaker 4: talking about the really pitiful attempt at a coup over

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Speaker 4: in South Korea, where the prime minister himself tried to

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Speaker 4: coup his own government with the military but didn't have

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Speaker 4: the military behind him, And we'll talk about how well

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Speaker 4: that worked out.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, not well, We've got some video footage. There's all

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Speaker 5: kinds of good stuff. Stay tuned for that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you thought January sixth was pathetic? Like, wait till

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Speaker 4: you see this one.

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Speaker 6: I don't know how many people thought January sixth.

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Speaker 1: Was pathetic they stood up?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it was pathetic in the sense that

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Speaker 4: what were those January six people thinking they were going

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Speaker 4: to accomplish if they took over the capitol, right, Like

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Speaker 4: you think, if you get the gavel, you've beaten the

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Speaker 4: final boss and now you're the speaker. Like that's not

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Speaker 4: actually how it works, Like this is not like seventeen

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Speaker 4: eighty nine in Paris or something.

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Speaker 6: Thank god.

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Speaker 5: We'll also be talking about John Stewart laying into Democrats

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Speaker 5: over their handling of the sweeping Hunter Biden pardon.

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Speaker 6: So we've got some video of that.

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Speaker 5: And breaking news actually that Pete Hegseth is actually being

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Speaker 5: considered as or being considered to be replaced. Yeah, being unconsidered.

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump is considering replacing Pete hag Seth, his nominee

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Speaker 5: to head up the Pentagon, with none other than Florida

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Speaker 5: Governor Ron DeSantis. That's a report in the Wall Street

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Speaker 5: Journal that has since just in the last twelve hours.

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Speaker 4: And to Sanctimonius, the Sanctimonius is qualified because he served

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Speaker 4: in the torture chambers in Guantanamo.

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Speaker 6: He did do that.

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Speaker 5: So we'll get into all of that because the story

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Speaker 5: is fluid and moving quickly. There's also a major Supreme

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Speaker 5: Court oral argument hearing today over the transgender treatment for

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Speaker 5: minors ban in Tennessee. So there's all kinds of interesting

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Speaker 5: stuff that we can talk about when.

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Speaker 6: It comes to that.

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Speaker 5: And we have Ben Wickler, who's running for DNC chair,

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Speaker 5: making a very powerful effort to head up the DNC.

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Speaker 5: The head of the Wisconsin Democratic Party.

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Speaker 6: He's going to be joining us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's one of one of He may be the

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Speaker 1: front runner. Ken Martin of Minnesota might be the front

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Speaker 1: runner for a chair At this point, it's not entirely clear.

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Speaker 4: What's wild is Ben Wickler, who comes from the kind

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Speaker 4: of progressive ish wing of the party move on that

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Speaker 4: that sort of world, just got the endorsement of Third Way,

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Speaker 4: the centrist organization, which is which shows which says a

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Speaker 4: lot of interesting things about where the Party is now

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Speaker 4: also at at dropsite. My colleague Jessica Burbank interviewed Dan Osborne,

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Speaker 4: the independent Nebraska Senate candidate, and we're going to exclusively

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Speaker 4: run that entire interview here. Jessica lives in Iowa, so

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Speaker 4: just drove over to Nebraska and sat down with him.

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Speaker 4: It's really really fascinating kind of window into how a

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Speaker 4: working person reflects back on a Senate campaign in which

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Speaker 4: he faced, you know, millions and millions of dollars in

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Speaker 4: negative ads and ended up losing fifty three forty seven

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Speaker 4: and out performing every other Democrat in the country except

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Speaker 4: for he was tied with John Tester for over performance

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Speaker 4: and John Tester Montana Center, you know three you know,

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Speaker 4: three times elected. So in other words, running as an

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Speaker 4: independent who has a genuine working class story to tell

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Speaker 4: is as good for your kind of brand as serving

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Speaker 4: for eighteen years as a populist kind of in Montana.

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Speaker 4: John to guy, he's a farmer, he's lost his finger

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Speaker 4: in a combine. You know, he's got he's got that

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Speaker 4: whole flat top thing going on.

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Speaker 1: So it works for him until it didn't and Montana

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Speaker 1: got too red.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that had the had Mitch McConnell raddled,

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Speaker 5: for sure that race heedd. Mitch McConnell rattled, so excited

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Speaker 5: to see the interview. Ryan, you had a fantastic report

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Speaker 5: at drop Site this week. I mean it was like riveting,

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Speaker 5: and we're going to break some of it down here.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: It's our first collaboration that we did at drop Site

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Speaker 4: with three other independent media outlets in Europe looking into

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Speaker 4: this giant of investigative journalism that is that was instrumental

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Speaker 4: in doing a lot of the investigations you've heard of,

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Speaker 4: like the Panama Papers, the Pandora Papers, a lot of

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Speaker 4: these investigations into oligarchs around the world. What we collectively

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Speaker 4: can reveal now for the first time is that the

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Speaker 4: primary funder of this organization is none other than the

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Speaker 4: United States State Department.

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Speaker 1: And so we're going to we're going to get into that.

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Speaker 1: One other thing I wanted to flag before I start

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 4: On two days from now will mark the one year

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Speaker 4: anniversary since Israel assassinated Palestinian poet Ray fought Alareer. After

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Speaker 4: his assassination, his poem if I Must Die, Let It

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Speaker 4: be a Tale became this absolute global sensation.

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Speaker 1: It's a.

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Speaker 4: It's a poignant it's a point poem that is addressed

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Speaker 4: to his daughter, basically asking her to carry on hope

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Speaker 4: for him and for the world.

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Speaker 1: His daughter was then killed in April.

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Speaker 4: Next week on Tuesday, there's a book called If I

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Speaker 4: Must Die, which is Ray fott Alareer's possumously published book

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Speaker 4: of prose and poems. And what we are going to

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Speaker 4: try to do and this is where this is where

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Speaker 4: you come in. We have nothing to do with the

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Speaker 4: publication of this book. It's by it's by our books.

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Speaker 4: But what we're going to do is we're going to

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Speaker 4: try to turn this into a bestseller as a small

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Speaker 4: measure of if not justice, at least a tiny bit

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Speaker 4: of revenge, to let people know that the world is

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Speaker 4: still watching, that the world has not forgotten about the

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Speaker 4: Palestinian people, and also that the world has not forgotten

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Speaker 4: about the assassins of raf fat Alayer and his and

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Speaker 4: his family. It's also an incredible book. It's one you're

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Speaker 4: going to want to own. I would do not order

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Speaker 4: it yet. It comes out on December tenth, so order

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Speaker 4: it on that day. We'll put a link down in

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Speaker 4: the in the notes or in the in the comments

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Speaker 4: where you can like sign up to get a reminder

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Speaker 4: to order it on Tuesday, because if everybody orders orders

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Speaker 4: it on Tuesday, that will fuel the algorithm and push

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Speaker 4: it to the very top.

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Speaker 1: And I think, I think we can do it.

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Speaker 4: You only have to sell five or ten thousand books

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Speaker 4: in a day, yeah, to hit basically number one on

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Speaker 4: the lists.

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Speaker 1: So it's possible.

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Speaker 4: Definitely, it can be done, and it should be done

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Speaker 4: for Raefatt's book, It's definitely possible.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that was an amazing poem.

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Speaker 4: Really it really, it's an extraordinary Just go google that

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Speaker 4: poem it's and you'll and as you read the poem,

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Speaker 4: you will see why.

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Speaker 8: We're doing this.

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Speaker 6: Let's get to South Korea.

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Speaker 4: Ryan so over in South Korea, over the last couple

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Speaker 4: of days, we watched a farcical attempt at a military

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Speaker 4: coup without the real support of the military unfold as

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Speaker 4: President yunsuk yoel and we can roll this here.

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Speaker 1: On Monday night, South Korea time declared a martial law.

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Speaker 4: This is a man with about the ten percent approval

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Speaker 4: rating and accused his opponents of being North Korean communist

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Speaker 4: sympathizers who were harassing him by impeaching in his cabinet

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Speaker 4: officials by investigating him.

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Speaker 1: By the way, here this turns out to be a

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Speaker 1: South Korean reporter here, the one who where is she?

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Speaker 5: Anyways, if you're watching this, there's a woman who grabs

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Speaker 5: a gun. And if you're listening to it, you see

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Speaker 5: you're seeing it. If you're listening to what we're watching

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Speaker 5: right now, is a woman grabbing a gun from a soldier.

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Speaker 5: She turns out, as Ryan was just about to say,

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Speaker 5: to be a.

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Speaker 1: Reporter, right mm hmm.

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Speaker 4: Then there's the soldier pointing a weapon right at or

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Speaker 4: she doesn't she doesn't back down at all, which is

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Speaker 4: which was a metaphor for kind of the the civil

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Speaker 4: civil society response from the South Korean people to this

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Speaker 4: declaration of martial law. You had, you had some you know,

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Speaker 4: you had some soldiers basically storming the capital, and we

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Speaker 4: put up this put up the put up the next

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Speaker 4: element here, kind of storming the parliament to try to

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Speaker 4: you know, take it over, to try to block the

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Speaker 4: parliament from overturning martial law, because the constitution says that

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Speaker 4: if basically of Parliament votes against the martial law, then

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Speaker 4: it's then it's lifted so the marshals were trying to

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Speaker 4: keep the law from you know, getting into the place

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Speaker 4: where they could cast the vote.

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Speaker 7: Uh.

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Speaker 4: There there's this great viral video of the leader of

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Speaker 4: the opposition scaling a wall. We can put the next

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Speaker 4: element up here, scaling a wall to get in. They

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Speaker 4: ended up they ended up voting I think one ninety

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Speaker 4: to zero or something to lift it. At one point,

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Speaker 4: you had soldiers trying to get in and they were

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Speaker 4: they were beaten back by reporters and other and kind

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Speaker 4: of staffers and lawmakers by you know, who wielded a

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Speaker 4: fire extinguisher, sprayed the solutions with a fire extinguisher, and

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Speaker 4: otherwise just kind of used their camera flashes in their

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Speaker 4: in their faces.

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Speaker 1: And you can put up this. You can put up

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Speaker 1: this next element here. Believe this is the one.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, where they South Korea's parlamly was one ninety zero

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Speaker 4: to lift the martial law. After that vote, you finally capitulated,

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Speaker 4: and he went on, Uh went on early in the

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Speaker 4: morning and said, look, it's too early to get a quorum,

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Speaker 4: but I promise once I finally get a quorum, I

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Speaker 4: will I will lift the I will lift the martial

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Speaker 4: law and will return things to where they were. I think, uh,

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Speaker 4: if you want, if you want a good rundown on

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Speaker 4: kind of the the history of what led up to

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Speaker 4: this and also the details of how this went down.

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Speaker 4: We'll have a story later today up over a drop

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Speaker 4: site news.

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Speaker 1: You can check that out.

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Speaker 4: Uh, Emily, the Biden administration is claiming that it was

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Speaker 4: caught off guard.

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Speaker 6: By this, that he did not tell them, that he.

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Speaker 4: Didn't tell them they were going to do this, and

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Speaker 4: that the apparently the intelligence community, whose job it is

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Speaker 4: to know that these kinds of things are going to

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Speaker 4: happen when done by your top ally apparently also didn't know.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 4: They also claimed some ignorance about the seizure of Aleppo,

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Speaker 4: which people have been like, how do you how are

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Speaker 4: you ignorant about that?

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Speaker 1: You're these are your guys seizing Aleppo?

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Speaker 5: Maybe st our President is sleeping through the day presumably.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So, So the best case scenario for the United States

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Speaker 4: here is that they were caught completely off guard. The

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Speaker 4: worst case scenario was that they were that they were

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Speaker 4: okay with this and thought it thought they could pull

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Speaker 4: it off. Some background here, which I which I think

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Speaker 4: is unlikely because it was such a comical farcical loop,

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Speaker 4: you know, pathetic attempt at a coup. So the background

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Speaker 4: here is that Yun is a very very tight ally

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Speaker 4: of the United States and has given the United States

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Speaker 4: the you know, the thing in one person that they

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Speaker 4: have wanted in South Korea for a while now, which

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Speaker 4: is not just somebody who's willing to go after labor unions,

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Speaker 4: which which that is the US interest in South Korea

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Speaker 4: to crack down on labor unions because we want cheap

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Speaker 4: exports out of out of South Korea, but also that

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Speaker 4: they will make make a tight alliance with their former

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Speaker 4: colonizer Japan and and form a bulwark against China like

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Speaker 4: that is our that is our thing in North Korea,

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Speaker 4: and North Korea is North Korea an emerging scene as

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Speaker 4: a China right, and so that there could be nothing

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Speaker 4: less popular and I mean in South Korea to do

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Speaker 4: than to create warm and friendly, cozy relations with Japan.

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Speaker 4: And it's not surprising that the president who would do

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Speaker 4: or the leader whould do our bidding on that question

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Speaker 4: would also be somebody who's got like a single digit approval.

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Speaker 5: Writing and so just if we put a two on

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Speaker 5: the screen, this is some of the political backdrop here

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Speaker 5: he was narrowly elected president of South Korea, was nearly

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Speaker 5: elected from the conservative it's called the People Power Party.

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Speaker 5: Their rivals are called the Democratic Party, funny enough, who

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Speaker 5: just had a big victory in the parliamentary elections. And

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Speaker 5: so he's a lame duck, as Politico reports in this piece,

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Speaker 5: and he's accusing the Democrats, members of the Democratic Party

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Speaker 5: of quote, sympathizing with Pyongyang and paralyzing the government with

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Speaker 5: anti state activities.

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Speaker 6: Those anti state activities obviously.

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Speaker 5: Targeted him and his party hampered him and his party

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Speaker 5: were arguing over the course of the last couple of

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Speaker 5: weeks over a budget build that the Democratic Party would

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Speaker 5: not green light. Again, he's a lame duck, and so

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Speaker 5: that's the kind of political backdrop of how he ends

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Speaker 5: up declaring martial law. In this speech, Biden administration says

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Speaker 5: it doesn't give a heads up. It was not given

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Speaker 5: a heads up, which is shocking given that over the

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Speaker 5: last half a century, this is one of our top

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Speaker 5: recipients of aid. If you look at the last half

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Speaker 5: century of foreign aid from the US to different countries.

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Speaker 4: South Carolina, South Korea is a leader. And then I

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Speaker 4: think people don't realize that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's like top I would say it's like

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Speaker 5: probably top five. Yeah, over the course of its it's

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Speaker 5: probably a little different in the last ten years, but.

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Speaker 1: Over the court years second.

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Speaker 6: Huge, huge recipient.

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Speaker 5: And so the fact that they get so much support

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Speaker 5: from the United States and then the president, who has

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Speaker 5: been close to our president, doesn't give a heads up

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Speaker 5: before declaring martial law. I'm not saying it's right or wrong.

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Speaker 5: I'm saying it's a massive slap in the face to

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Speaker 5: the Biden administration and it leaves a Biden administration looking ridiculous.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and this we supported the brutal police state and

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Speaker 4: military dictatorship in South Korea up through the late nineteen eighties, and.

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Speaker 1: So it's this.

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Speaker 4: There are Israel in the region basically like the are

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Speaker 4: kind of outposts, and this is just hugely embarrassing. Now

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Speaker 4: the opposition party is fairly American friendly too, but they're

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Speaker 4: more labor friendly, and so we're annoyed by that because

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Speaker 4: that means we have to pay a little bit more

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Speaker 4: for stuff that comes out of South Korea, and they'll

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Speaker 4: be less much less interested in making a common military

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Speaker 4: cause with Japan against China.

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Speaker 5: And they put up this is a three. The opposite,

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Speaker 5: the Opposition Party simply said the declaration is illegal and

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Speaker 5: unconstitutionalis is not all met actual requirements for emergency martial

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Speaker 5: law declaration that are stipulated in the Constitution and the

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Speaker 5: Martial Law Act. So it wasn't even legit martial law

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Speaker 5: according to the Opposition party here, if you're going to

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Speaker 5: declare martial law, you should do it within the law.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and the unions immediately declared a general strike and

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Speaker 4: are saying that they're going to remain on strike until

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Speaker 4: un just until you resigns. And it's it's really his

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Speaker 4: entire staff is resigning. It's very hard to see how

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Speaker 4: he is still in power even by the end.

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Speaker 1: End of this week.

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Speaker 4: So CIA should send a transport plane and get get there,

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Speaker 4: get their man out of there.

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Speaker 1: Like this, it's a wrap for this.

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Speaker 5: So on that note, let's roll a five. This is

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Speaker 5: Joe Biden egging on martial law president to sing American

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Speaker 5: Pie at an event last year.

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Speaker 1: Bill O Riley would say, to play us out.

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Speaker 6: To play us out.

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Speaker 5: This is a five and a good illustration of just

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Speaker 5: how friendly this relationship is. And I think maybe what

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Speaker 5: a statement on Joe Biden's his own lame duck president.

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Speaker 5: How exactly lame that lame duck president is so enjoy.

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Speaker 1: Well for you, and the music has died. I think

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Speaker 1: we can leave it that right.

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Speaker 6: That was the day that the music died. South Korean pie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there you go, shame well.

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Speaker 5: I hope everyone enjoyed that little musical interlude. It's not

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Speaker 5: often we get to do a musical interludes.

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Speaker 6: So a little treat.

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Speaker 5: John Stewart is excoriating the Democratic Party for its reaction

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Speaker 5: to Hunter Biden's pardon or Joe Biden's pardon of his

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Speaker 5: son Hunter Biden. The sweeping pardon has not gotten a

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Speaker 5: ton of criticism from Democrats as they've been asked to

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Speaker 5: respond to what the president did. So let's take a

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Speaker 5: listen to Stewart here.

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Speaker 9: It's not like he's ever gonna run again, So why

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Speaker 9: not take care of your kid even if you said

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Speaker 9: you weren't gonna I respect it.

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Speaker 8: I don't have a problem with it.

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Speaker 9: The problem is the rest of the Democrats made Biden's

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Speaker 9: pledge to not pardon Hunter the foundation of their defense

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Speaker 9: of America. This grand experiment. Yes, yes, yes to everything

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Speaker 9: that you guys were saying, if you hadn't made Hunter

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Speaker 9: Biden not receiving a pardon, the Mason Dixon line of

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Speaker 9: morality between Democrats and Republicans, there's a big gap between

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Speaker 9: the laws. The only thing that separates us from the

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Speaker 9: animals and monkey through shitting me first. I had no choice, rules, loopholes,

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Speaker 9: and norms. The distance between the systems Democrats say they

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Speaker 9: are revering and the one that they're using when they

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Speaker 9: need to is why people think it's rigged.

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Speaker 1: Use the rules, use the loopholes, the norms, but also

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Speaker 1: use it to help the people.

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Speaker 5: So Gavin Newsom has been basically the only major Democrat

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Speaker 5: I've seen gently condemn what Joe Biden did. But Ryan,

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Speaker 5: there's an interesting point also that Stuart is.

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Speaker 1: More people than that I think have been going after.

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Speaker 5: Him more than Gavin Newsom. Yeah, like people got elected officials.

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Speaker 4: Yes, like the Colorado Center Michael Bennett went after him, Breeheart.

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Speaker 4: There's a bunch of because because I think he's on

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Speaker 4: his way out, and I think people feel like it's

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Speaker 4: a free shot at him.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I've been curious about that. Actually, I mean it

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Speaker 5: seems it's a pretty.

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Speaker 1: Easy cableheads have not covered themselves.

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Speaker 6: In glory and they have no reason.

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Speaker 4: Politicians actually who actually have to deal with voters you'd think,

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Speaker 4: have been actually I think pretty critical of it is.

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Speaker 5: Stuart had a good montage of Jasmine Crockett, other elected

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Speaker 5: Democrats who have been very defensive of Biden.

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Speaker 6: But I totally take that point.

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Speaker 5: I think it's yeah, the Gavin Newsom is one very

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Speaker 5: as much as I can't stand at me, he's sort

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Speaker 5: of his political instincts are smart. The point you're making

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Speaker 5: about understanding where voters.

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Speaker 1: Are on this is a free hit.

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Speaker 6: And this is exactly where I was going.

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Speaker 5: The Biden actually said over and over again, as Crystal

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Speaker 5: and Sager have covered, that he wouldn't do this. But

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Speaker 5: what's interesting about that is it was all before the election.

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Speaker 5: So Hunter was going to be sentenced this month, and

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Speaker 5: I think in both cases, but not to say over

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Speaker 5: and over again before the election that you wouldn't pardon him,

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Speaker 5: and then after the election to pardon him. Whether the

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Speaker 5: timing had to do with the sentencing or the election,

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Speaker 5: voters are going to feel totally lied to and cheated

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Speaker 5: by Democrats and by journalists who weren't as skeptical of

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Speaker 5: those claims as they might otherwise have been. So Yeah,

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Speaker 5: obviously it is a huge free hit.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and I think we're covering this now because I

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Speaker 4: think people might be curious for our takes on this,

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Speaker 4: even though this is a day or two old. Now,

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Speaker 4: I'm curious more on yours. But from my perspective, yeah,

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Speaker 4: there are a bunch of different layers to this. On

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Speaker 4: the top layer, to me, if you are a mother

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Speaker 4: or father of a child who is child and I'm

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Speaker 4: calling him a child some years old, who has committed

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Speaker 4: a non violent crime or hundreds of non violent crimes,

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Speaker 4: you are a complete jerk if you just don't use

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Speaker 4: your part. You can pardon them, and you don't, and

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Speaker 4: they're in recovery, like, just pardon the person. It's what

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Speaker 4: you do as a parent. The other layers, though, are

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Speaker 4: the hypocrisy. Biden is the guy who deserves as much

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Speaker 4: credit for the drug war as anybody else. Hundreds of

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Speaker 4: thousands to millions of people rotting away who he has

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Speaker 4: never shed a tear for, and has the opportunity now

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Speaker 4: to pardon hundreds of thousands of nonviolent maybe tens of thousands,

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Speaker 4: nonviolent criminals who didn't get out from the first step,

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Speaker 4: and who are in federal prison and he hasn't done it.

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Speaker 4: He campaigned on ending the death penalty. He could commute

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Speaker 4: every federal death sentence today, and he ran on it,

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Speaker 4: So it would be a legitimate thing to do.

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Speaker 7: Is he going to do that?

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Speaker 1: No, he's not going to do that.

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Speaker 4: And then the layer below is, of course the lies,

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Speaker 4: like you want to pardon your son, fine, but did

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Speaker 4: you really have to lie about it and say that

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Speaker 4: you absolutely were not doing it when you knew you

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Speaker 4: were considering doing it. And then beyond just the lie,

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Speaker 4: it's one thing to lie and then flip and do it,

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Speaker 4: to lie and build the sand castle of your integrity

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Speaker 4: on top.

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Speaker 6: Of it, the sand castle of your nsycritic.

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Speaker 1: Like, come on, get out of here.

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Speaker 6: That's actually the title of like your.

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Speaker 1: Next book, Democratic Party.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, the sand castle. Y.

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Speaker 5: So what's interesting also is that Trump's defense has also

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Speaker 5: already used his legal defense has already invoked Biden's pardon

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Speaker 5: of Hunter in its own defense, saying, well, clearly this

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Speaker 5: shows or this proves just malfeasance, and the Biden doj

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Speaker 5: like this is a reflection even the president himself, which

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Speaker 5: is interesting because Biden's DOJ was already going fairy lenient

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Speaker 5: on Hunter to the point where a judge had to

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Speaker 5: stop when she looked at the deal that was being

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Speaker 5: presented by the DJ. This was what a year and

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Speaker 5: a half ago now and said as norieka is I

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Speaker 5: think the judging question? She said, I'm sorry what this

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Speaker 5: is the weirdest thing I've ever seen the prosecution present

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Speaker 5: me with.

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Speaker 4: Right, And even if you believe their rationale there, it

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Speaker 4: doesn't excuse the lying because they spent years saying that

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Speaker 4: the problem with Donald Trump is that he planned to

445
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 4: weaponize the Justice Department to get revenge against his political

446
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,439
Speaker 4: appointees if he was re elected as president. Like that

447
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 4: was one of the top lines that Democrats used against

448
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,880
Speaker 4: Donald Trump. So if you already knew that, why were

449
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 4: you saying that you weren't going to pardon Hunter to

450
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 4: then cite that, cite Trump's vindictiveness and his willingness to

451
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,159
Speaker 4: put cash matel or whatever as the head of the

452
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 4: FBI as the reason that you.

453
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 1: Change your mind.

454
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:30,679
Speaker 4: It's like, wait a minute, were you not watching your

455
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 4: own ads for the last two years. You're the ones

456
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:34,679
Speaker 4: who were saying that he was going to do this.

457
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 4: So yes, the lying, the hypocrisy, all of that is

458
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 4: the problem to me, not the part in itself. Like

459
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 4: I would have been angrier, and I was actually angry

460
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 4: at Biden when I foolishly thought that maybe he might

461
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 4: not actually pardon Hunter Biden, Like I thought.

462
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 7: That was.

463
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,719
Speaker 4: Cruel and vicious, like as a father, like just pardon

464
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 4: your son, just do it.

465
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, I mean Hunter Biden is somebody who, to

466
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 5: your point, has perhaps committed hundreds of non violent crimes

467
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 5: over the years, and he looks like he's.

468
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 4: Going, well, we definitely know, I mean he committed, He

469
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 4: probably committed. There were probably days during his bender where

470
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 4: he committed one hundred crimes.

471
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 1: In a single day.

472
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 4: Now, the reason they went all the way back to

473
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 4: twenty fourteen and gave him this blanket pardon is because

474
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 4: the more serious crime that he may have committed is

475
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 4: FARA violations, which is not registering as a foreign agent

476
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 4: and then lobbying on behalf of a foreign government. The

477
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 4: hilarious defense that his team has been making behind the

478
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 4: scenes and was prepared to make if it went to

479
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:43,120
Speaker 4: trial was that he was so high and so irresponsible

480
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 4: that yes, he was paid to.

481
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 1: Do foreign influence work.

482
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 8: But he couldn't.

483
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 4: But he just cashed the checks and spent it on

484
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 4: drugs and put it up his nose and never actually

485
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 4: did the work. And it's the work, the unregistered work,

486
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,479
Speaker 4: that would be the crime, not taking the money, so

487
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 4: that it'd be hilariously novel legal theory. Like it's like

488
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,199
Speaker 4: if you were arrested for selling drugs and you're like, actually,

489
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 4: this was just baking soda and I just kept the

490
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,719
Speaker 4: guy's money, that way be like, Okay, well, actually, if

491
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 4: there was literally no cocaine in that bag, you may

492
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 4: have committed some fraud against this poor sap who thought

493
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 4: he was getting an eight ball.

494
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 1: But you didn't actually sell drugs.

495
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 6: You saved his life.

496
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 4: Hunter actually unless he snorted the baking soda. Well, I

497
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 4: mean it's so pleasant, I'm sure.

498
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 7: Yeah.

499
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 5: But in this case with Parah, the violation is actually

500
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 5: just not registering, as opposed to it's totally legal to

501
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 5: do the lobbying. It's more a question of like whether

502
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 5: or not you after you sign a contract, which he

503
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 5: did register, which is a funny kind of part of

504
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 5: that's why their defense just might not work, except.

505
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: If you didn't do the lobbying if you only took

506
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 1: the money. But if you registered but he never registered,

507
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: well no, if.

508
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 6: He signed the that's right.

509
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 5: But if he signed the contract and then he's supposed

510
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 5: to be frauded. You're supposed to register as soon as

511
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 5: you sign thirty days, right, like you get the thirty

512
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 5: day grace period.

513
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 4: Right, I mean, So that's why the pardon him, because

514
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 4: like this novel legal theory might be laughed out of

515
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 4: court by jurors.

516
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 1: Do you never know?

517
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 5: Amazing theory though, And just lastly, I'm reading from playbook

518
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 5: here they say lawrish for Trump deployed the President's statement

519
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 5: explaining his pardon of Hunter and a filing seeking the

520
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 5: dismissal of the hush money case against Trump in New York.

521
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 6: His lawyers argued that.

522
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 5: Biden's assertions about Hunter Biden have been selectively and unfairly

523
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 5: prosecuted and treated differently. We're tantamount to a quote extraordinary

524
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 5: condemnation of President Biden's own DOJ so an amusing tidbit there?

525
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I will I will say that the only

526
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 4: thing that got him so far on was this filling

527
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 4: out the form on the when he went to get

528
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 4: the gun and said it had this, and we've talked

529
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 4: about this before. My argument that I would have made it.

530
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 4: The jury didn't didn't pass water, I mean didn't pass

531
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 4: posiblely did the jury. But it says are you currently

532
00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 4: using drugs? And he checked no, right, And from my

533
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 4: perspective of if I'm filling that out, if I'm in

534
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 4: the gun shop not using drugs, then I'm not using drugs.

535
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: Like did I use drugs yesterday? Maybe? Do I plan

536
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: to use drugs tomorrow?

537
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 4: Absolutely not. Never touched them again as long as I live.

538
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,719
Speaker 4: And then maybe you relapse. It didn't work, But in

539
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 4: that moment when you filled out the form, and then

540
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 4: aside from that, it's like, aren't you all these big

541
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 4: Second Amendment champions, Like we're in the Second Amendment? Does

542
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 4: it say you know the pass no law? You know

543
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 4: there's shot pass, no law, the restricts you know the

544
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 4: right to keep bare arms except federal form that you

545
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 4: have to fill out about gun ownership. And then I

546
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 4: mean about drug use. And if you're okay with that,

547
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 4: are you okay with mental health?

548
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 6: Well, I mean you can flip that around so easily.

549
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 5: And Roe Biden like, aren't you and Hunter the opponents of,

550
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 5: you know, an expansive second second Amendment interpretation, and you shouldn't.

551
00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 5: Shouldn't this mean that everyone who's you've been convey on these.

552
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 4: Starts of venturegell It would have been quite ironic if

553
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 4: Hunter Biden ended up being used to go to the

554
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 4: Supreme Court to blow even greater holes in our gun

555
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 4: safety laws.

556
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:12,479
Speaker 6: Yeah, that would have been pretty interesting.

557
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: So that's one another thing that won't happen.

558
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 6: Hypocrites, all of them, right and left, no question about that.

559
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's about right.

560
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 5: So, speaking of people's personal addiction problems being weaponized against them,

561
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 5: Pete Hegseth is getting absolutely torched in the press. Before

562
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 5: his alleged drinking problems. He's talked about some of this

563
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 5: personally after he returned from war. But NBC News published

564
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 5: a story just yesterday detailing allegations all anonymously sourced, by

565
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 5: the way, from people inside Fox News, essentially saying that

566
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 5: he would show up to work hung over and that

567
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 5: everybody knew he was a heavy drinker. Now, since the

568
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 5: publication of that story, it has become clear that.

569
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 6: NBC News did not reach out to Pete.

570
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 5: Haigsas coworkers like Rachel Campo, stuffy and anchor actually on

571
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 5: Fox News. All kinds of people have come out on

572
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,239
Speaker 5: the record and said they've never heard anything like it.

573
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 5: They're obviously all friends and allies of Pete Haigseth. But

574
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 5: after the publication of that story, which comes after allegations

575
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 5: of sexual abuse, it comes after allegations of drinking and

576
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 5: wild sort of incompetent runs overseeing concerned vets for America,

577
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 5: Pete Haigseth now is being potentially replaced by Ron DeSantis.

578
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 6: We can put this element on the screen.

579
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 5: A Wall Street Journal report last night exclusively broke the

580
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 5: news that Donald Trump was mulling a replacement of Pete

581
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 5: Heigseth with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. What I saw last night, Ryan,

582
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 5: is people who seem to be in the DeSantis camp

583
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,959
Speaker 5: saying this story is true. They have people that are

584
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 5: telling them the story is true. It was confirmed by

585
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 5: other news outlets in different ways after the Wall Street

586
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 5: Journal published it.

587
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 6: And that is significant.

588
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 5: My former boss Jon Davis, who is very well sourced

589
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 5: from the Federalist in Trump world, says the story is

590
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 5: not true, that it's being planted by Desanta's allies. So

591
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 5: maybe there's a kernel of truth that they're using to

592
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 5: plant stories in places like the Wall Street Journal, making

593
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 5: it more likely that DeSantis ends up just stepping in

594
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 5: for Pete Hegseth. Hegseth's mom is going to be on

595
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 5: Fox News this morning, so literally as we're taping this,

596
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 5: and then she is also going to be He's actually

597
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 5: going to be on Brett Baer Show this evening. He's

598
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 5: meeting with senators here in Washington all week. So, Ryan,

599
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 5: this is a very precarious nomination at this point to

600
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 5: head up an agency that is deeply suspicious of outsiders,

601
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 5: that doesn't want outsiders. Whatever you think of Pete Hegseth,

602
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 5: there's a definitely a campaign to get him out of

603
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 5: the door.

604
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 7: Yeah.

605
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 4: And what's annoying to me as somebody who would love

606
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 4: to see a wrecking ball brought to both the Department

607
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 4: of Justice and to the Department of Defense, right is

608
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 4: I would like you guys on the right to kind

609
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 4: of get your act together. It's like, come on, like

610
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 4: you have a chance to take on these these titans

611
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 4: of elite power centers, and the two people you throw

612
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 4: at them are like, do seem to be real?

613
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: Wrecking balls.

614
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 4: I got differences with them in some areas, but like

615
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 4: these these both Matt Gates and Hexas what would be

616
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 4: real wrecking balls thrown into these institutions capital And if

617
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,959
Speaker 4: you're going to take on the man at that level,

618
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 4: you got to be squeaky clean.

619
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: These guys aren't squeaky clean.

620
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 5: Probably today, well Brett Kavanaugh was squeaky clean.

621
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 4: Well, Brett Kavanaugh squeaky clean. Also, he's not taking he's

622
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 4: not a wrecking ball, he's not taking on anything.

623
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: He's he's he's just a.

624
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 4: Servant of the of the Republican Party, like apparatus for

625
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 4: twenty thirty years.

626
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 5: I agree, But I think your point is actually really important,

627
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 5: which is that and also he got through. I think

628
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 5: he's really important because he's Trump nominees. Like if you

629
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 5: want to upend the Department of Justice, the FBI, and

630
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 5: the Pentagon nominating Pete Hagsath and Matt Gates right out,

631
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 5: like right right away, you know that there's going to

632
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,719
Speaker 5: be there's such easy targets, and you know that, let's say, hypothetically,

633
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 5: even though I think this is probably true, there are

634
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 5: people inside the Pentagon and their allies in the press

635
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 5: who are really eager to discredit any nominated that is

636
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 5: going to dramatically shake up the department. They will go

637
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 5: to any length to stop you.

638
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 6: From being confirmed.

639
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 5: So not only should you be squeaky clean, you shouldn't

640
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 5: be Matt Gates so obvious, or somebody who is. In

641
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 5: Pete Hagsath's case, he's admitted to drinking too much. He's

642
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 5: admitted we know that he's slept around with all kinds

643
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 5: of different women.

644
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 6: So it's it.

645
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 4: And that's and the thing with the mother is amazing

646
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 4: like that, and that's what you know. She in her

647
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 4: email that was published, which is wild that like a

648
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 4: mother's email to their son, is now part of the conversations,

649
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 4: she refers to him as like a serial abuser of women,

650
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 4: and people read kind of violence into that.

651
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: She doesn't say that in the email.

652
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 4: What she's really talking about is is emotional abuse and

653
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:17,479
Speaker 4: you know, relentless cheating and denigration and just treating women terribly.

654
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 4: And even if it's the case that the the charge

655
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 4: of sexual assault rape that he was accused of isn't

656
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 4: isn't true, like there's he wasn't charged there it's you know,

657
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 4: it's great. So he said she said let's say that

658
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 4: he didn't do it. At minimum, he was having an

659
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 4: affair within like weeks of his new girlfriend having a baby,

660
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 4: and that baby was breaking up his last marriage.

661
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 7: Like just.

662
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 4: Hillary Clinton's description of deplorable would fit that situation.

663
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 5: Although she probably wouldn't use it that way because it

664
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 5: would be uncomfortable for her own husband.

665
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 4: Yes, right, And once you're in the category of being

666
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 4: compared to Bill Clinton, that could then you're like, you've

667
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 4: kind of lost And again, you know, we're not saying

668
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 4: everybody's got to be a choir boy, but you got

669
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 4: to do a little better than this guys. Well, and

670
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 4: if you're going to try to take on like, if

671
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 4: you are going to toe the line and just do

672
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 4: what you're being asked by the powers that be, then

673
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 4: you can actually probably get away with all of this stuff.

674
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: The problem is you're going to take on the man, right,

675
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:36,959
Speaker 1: you got to you got to be a little bit

676
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: more stitched up.

677
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 6: Well, I think you and I both know.

678
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 5: The problem is that if you are somebody who actually

679
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 5: wants to radically transform a department like the Pentagon, you're

680
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 5: probably going to be a little crazy, right, Like that

681
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 5: takes a crazy person to say I want to go

682
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 5: into the Pentagon and upend it and fire people and

683
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,959
Speaker 5: threaten contracts, billion, multi billion dollar contracts like it's It's

684
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 5: very difficult, Rhonda Santis. And this is why I think

685
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 5: the story is particularly interesting. It's a similar dilemma that

686
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 5: Trump had with Attorney General Pam Bondi is a lobbyist

687
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 5: for major corporations, cutter, she is not Matt Gates. The

688
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 5: benefit from Trump's perspective and even from the perspective of

689
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,439
Speaker 5: those of us who say, like, enjoy the schadenfreude because

690
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 5: we believe that these departments desperately need some type of

691
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 5: like metaphorical grenade to be tossed in. That is, you

692
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 5: only get that with Matt Gates. You don't get that

693
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 5: with Pam Bondy. You only get that with Pete Hegseth

694
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 5: to the extent that he would be capable of it.

695
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 5: I don't know if any individual is actually really capable

696
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 5: of it.

697
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 6: You don't get that with Rhonda Santis.

698
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 4: But a revolutionary does not have to be reckless. Now,

699
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 4: the person you're right is interesting. You're right that the

700
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 4: personality type that produces a revolutionary is often somebody who

701
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 4: is has reckless tendencies. But your buddy Steve Bannon is

702
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 4: always talking about Lenin, Lenin and the vanguard, and he does. Look,

703
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 4: he loves talking about Lenin. Go read some Lenin and

704
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 4: talk about revolutionary discipline, Like, these cadres need more revolutionary discipline,

705
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 4: Go read some now, Like you think that any of

706
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 4: those revolutionaries would be tolerating this level of indiscipline when

707
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 4: they actually believe that their revolution is important, is so

708
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 4: important that it is going to save humanity. Like, if

709
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 4: you believe it, then you can zip it up at

710
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 4: a conference when your wife is like, just had a

711
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 4: baby six weeks ago.

712
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 5: Come on on, revolutionaries, Lenin didn't have syphilis camp that's no,

713
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 5: come on, but no, I mean, I think that's all

714
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 5: completely true. It's just and like if you look at,

715
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 5: for example, Bernie Sanders, somebody who on the right, let's say,

716
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 5: is what is the revolutionary comparison to Bernie Sanders on

717
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 5: the right? I mean, on the right, people who have

718
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 5: gone full maga and are true like quote unquote revolutionaries

719
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 5: and the sense that they want to throw the medical

720
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 5: metaphorical grenade into all of these departments.

721
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: Look at Ted Cruz.

722
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 10: Ted Cruz is more of a Rond DeSantis.

723
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: Though right, well, now Donald Trump not exactly the most.

724
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 5: But never drinks or touches drugs to that point.

725
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: He does the raping and the pillaging.

726
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 5: But yeah, the yeah, I mean, it's just hard to

727
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 5: it's it's not an easy thing because you tend to

728
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 5: be pretty eccentric if you are from that camp.

729
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: But I do want maw would not tolerate any of this.

730
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 5: Mal would not tolerate any of this. And as somebody

731
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 5: who's looking at the FBI and saying, what the like

732
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 5: this is?

733
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 6: This is disgusting.

734
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 5: You can't It's incredibly frustrating to see like somebody like

735
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 5: Matt Gates put in the nomination position to oversee the

736
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 5: to oversee the.

737
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: Dog and the validation.

738
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 4: From my theory, it looks to be cash Betel like

739
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 4: he's he seems like personally as far as we know,

740
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 4: button up, like we're not hearing story, we're not hearing

741
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 4: from his mother, not yet. But it's into depressions and

742
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,919
Speaker 4: he's just as much a revolutionary as arrest them.

743
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: And he's probably going to get confirmed.

744
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, we'll see, and that is, by the way, we'll

745
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 5: see with hegseeth there is a question of whether to

746
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,439
Speaker 5: be fair, if you've ever seen the Pentagon, I understand why.

747
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,439
Speaker 5: Obviously drinking, if he is an alcoholic, which I don't

748
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 5: think there's evidence that he's an alcoholic right.

749
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 6: Now, But if you are.

750
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 5: Sleeping around drinking a lot, there's potential for being compromised.

751
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 5: There's potential for being you know.

752
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 4: In a He's seen a lot of combat, right, I'm

753
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 4: sure he's got a lot of trauma that just got

754
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 4: to work out.

755
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 6: Yeah.

756
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And there's potentially self medicating with this, with this

757
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 4: exploitation of women and drinking and whatever.

758
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 5: If there's a I mean, if if there's a national

759
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 5: security emergency and the head of the Defense Department is drunk,

760
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 5: that's a problem. But it also creates opportunities again for

761
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 5: foreign compromunt and all of that. So I get why

762
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 5: some senators are joany Arns, for example, But.

763
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 4: They're probably just seizing it because they really don't want

764
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 4: him in there.

765
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 6: But it's an excuse.

766
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 1: He'd be a hand grenade thrown into the Pentagon.

767
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it becomes an excuse for all of

768
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 5: the lobbyists tripping in your ear about how bad this

769
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 5: is and how dangerous it is.

770
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,359
Speaker 4: If too much drinking disqualified you from a position of

771
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 4: power in Washington would be an anarchist system.

772
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 1: There'd be nobody in power.

773
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 5: Yes, the people who leaked to NBC News and honestly

774
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 5: saying that they suspected he was hungover at Fox and Friends,

775
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 5: I was like, how is NBC News publishing great great scoop?

776
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 6: All right, let's move on.

777
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 5: The New York Times describes the oral arguments happening at

778
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 5: the Supreme Court today as the quote marquee case of

779
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 5: the Supreme Court's term. They are considering a challenge to

780
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 5: a law in Tennessee known as SB one.

781
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 6: You may have heard of this.

782
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 5: It was passed last year that bans the use of

783
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 5: puberty blockers hormone therapy for teens who identify as transgender.

784
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 5: Scotus Blog says the dispute could be one of the

785
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 5: most significant decisions of the term, and with similar laws

786
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 5: in twenty three other states, the Court's ruling is likely

787
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,399
Speaker 5: to have broader implications for the protections available to people

788
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 5: who are identifying as transgender around the country. So those

789
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,959
Speaker 5: twenty three other laws are really critical here, and people

790
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 5: on both sides of the case are rallying outside of

791
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 5: the Supreme Court, as you would expect for a quote

792
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 5: unquote marquee hearing or oral arguments, So that will be

793
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 5: happening throughout the day here, So I'm going to read

794
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 5: a little bit from this New York Times article that

795
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 5: we can put up on the screen. They write, in

796
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 5: the intervening years, transgender rights have become a ferocious battleground

797
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 5: in the culture wars and controversies of our healthcare, bathroom sports,

798
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 5: and pronouns play a prominent role in the presidential campaign.

799
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 5: But the Supreme Court has had only glancing encounters with

800
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 5: such issues since the employment discrimination case in twenty twenty,

801
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 5: which featured a majority opinion from Justice Neil M. Gorsich,

802
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 5: mister Trump's first appointee to the Court. Now that is

803
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 5: interesting because this is the intervening years between Boss Stock.

804
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 6: So you may remember the boss Stock.

805
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: Ruling and which was Boss Stock.

806
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 5: But Bossk's the employment law that they're just referring to about.

807
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 1: Where Gorsa sided with the trans rights right.

808
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 5: Yes, so that gender identity is protected under sex, that

809
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 5: you are necessarily discriminating on the basis of sex. If

810
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 5: you're discriminating on the basis of gender identity, infuriated conservatives,

811
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 5: which is interesting because conservatives are feeling really good going

812
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 5: into the case today, and obviously they can afford to

813
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,720
Speaker 5: lose Gorsic, but Gorsich wrote the opinion in that case,

814
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 5: so they can afford to lose him going into the

815
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 5: case today, but they could it is Gorsich a Canarian,

816
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,760
Speaker 5: a coal mine is the boss Stock opinion a canary

817
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 5: and the coal mine for how other justices who some

818
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 5: conservers have been unhappy with the Trump justices. Obviously we

819
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 5: know what happened with Roe, but there are cracks in

820
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 5: what some people consider to be a really strong foundation,

821
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 5: obviously given that they were plucked straight from the list

822
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,919
Speaker 5: of the Federal Society list of approved justices, and people

823
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 5: have not been happy with how all the.

824
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 6: Justices have performed.

825
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 5: So the challenge to the Tennessee law feels a lot

826
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 5: of people feeling very confident about it. But obviously there

827
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 5: are reservations about what you could see from a Gorsich

828
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 5: or possibly someone else. I would say those fears would

829
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 5: be probably unfounded in this case. This was a law

830
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 5: that was passed by the representatives who were duly elected

831
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 5: by the people of Tennessee. So you have that going

832
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,359
Speaker 5: for you if you are on that side of the case.

833
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 5: So I wouldn't be as concerned about Gorsach in this one.

834
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 4: Is the difference for Gorsach here that one involves children

835
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 4: and the other involves adults.

836
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 6: Probably, Yeah, it's like.

837
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 4: When it comes to adults, I think most Americans, probably

838
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 4: even most people in Tennessee at this point, I don't know,

839
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 4: you tell you correct me if I'm wrong, would say

840
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 4: adult trans people should not be discriminated in any way

841
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 4: and should have all the same rights. Is everybody else

842
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 4: now what those rights entail When it comes to what's

843
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 4: sports teams you're allowed to play.

844
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 6: On, or bathrooms and locker rems, I.

845
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: Think it's a source of contention.

846
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 4: But when it comes to employment, yeah, discrimination, I think

847
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 4: everybody would say, you can, you absolutely should not be

848
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 4: able to discriminate against somebody.

849
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: I oh that reason.

850
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:19,760
Speaker 5: I think public opinion is on that side of the debate.

851
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 5: But I also think, yeah, it's because the conversation is

852
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 5: so dominated by bathrooms and locker rooms that's become really

853
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 5: difficult as a kind of wall to get over more

854
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 5: For the New York Times here they say the Tennessee

855
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 5: law prohibits medical providers from prescribing puberty, delaying medication, offering

856
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 5: hormone therapy, or performing surgery to treat the psychological distress

857
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,919
Speaker 5: caused by incongruence between experience gender and that assigned at birth.

858
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 5: But the law allows those same treatments for other purposes.

859
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 5: So this is where that question again, the boss that

860
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 5: question about sex discrimination comes in the Times continues. The

861
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 5: primary question for the justices is not whether Tennessee's ban

862
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 5: is wise or consistent with the views of medical experts.

863
00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 5: It is instead whether the law makes distinctions based on sex.

864
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 5: If it does, a demanding form of judicial review quote unquote,

865
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 5: heightened scrutincy scrutiny kicks in. If it does not, the

866
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 5: Tennessee law will almost certainly survive. So when Gorsa surprise

867
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 5: everybody by saying gender identity, you're necessarily discriminating on the

868
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 5: basis of sex. If you're discriminating on the basis of

869
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 5: gender identity, or he also talked about sexual orientation, that

870
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 5: becomes a question here if you are a boy who

871
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 5: is allowed to or let's say, if you're a girl

872
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 5: who is allowed to take puberty blockers because you have

873
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 5: an early menstrual cycle or other medical condition that were

874
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 5: Previously it was commonplace to use puberty blockers to treat

875
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 5: certain medical conditions, and you can get those puberty blockers

876
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 5: for that purpose, but you can't give them to somebody

877
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 5: of the other sex.

878
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:48,760
Speaker 6: Is sex the question?

879
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: So I don't think it. I don't think sex is

880
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: the question.

881
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 4: There the question there is the condition and the condition

882
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 4: that you're talking about. There is the early onset of puberty,

883
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 4: which is related to sex, obviously, but everybody, both sexes

884
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 4: go through puberty, so it's not intimately tied to it

885
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 4: that the details of it are tied to your particular sex,

886
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 4: but you're going to go through puberty either way.

887
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: So in that sense, I think it wouldn't It wouldn't apply.

888
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 4: And Gorsuch is logic in that case was always interesting

889
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 4: and it's like, it's like so slippery is hard for

890
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 4: me to keep my mind around. But what he's what

891
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 4: he's basically saying is that it is sex discrimination because

892
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 4: if a man shows up to work dressed as a man,

893
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 4: they will not be discriminated against by the employer, like

894
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 4: just as a matter of fact, like of course they

895
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 4: won't if a woman shows up dress as a woman,

896
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 4: they won't be discriminated against.

897
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 1: But if a originally.

898
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,800
Speaker 4: Biologically a biological woman shows up to work dressed as

899
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 4: a man, which is how conservatives would describe but trans man,

900
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 4: then they might face discrimination. And so a person dressed

901
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 4: exactly the same gets discriminated against according to this Gorsuch

902
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 4: logic because their underlying sex is different, and so therefore

903
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 4: it's sex discrimination. Therefore it's covered by the Civil Rights Act,

904
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 4: which was always really to me an interesting way of

905
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 4: getting to constitutional protection for trans writes. But I don't

906
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 4: think it applies in this case if you're Gorsic, because

907
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 4: the reason for the ban is the condition now is

908
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 4: the condition that it's being treated Now. I'm sure for

909
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 4: many people, including me, it's like it's really uncomfortable to

910
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 4: have state lawmakers going in and saying precisely what a

911
00:45:55,719 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 4: doctor is out allowed to prescribe as treatment for particular conditions,

912
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 4: like that's that's that's that that makes me really uncomfortable.

913
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 4: On the other hand, the way that this entire conversation

914
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 4: unfolded was was it was so fast and it was

915
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 4: not very democratic.

916
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: It was not it was not kind of out in

917
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 1: the open. There was no.

918
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 4: Discussion about it, uh, And there seems to be so

919
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 4: much like inability to do it in the normal scientific way,

920
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 4: like like researchers who are trying to look into it

921
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 4: from different directions, like won't publish information if it doesn't conform.

922
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: To like what they were hoping for like that.

923
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 4: So that part of it, you're like, all right, well,

924
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 4: I understand why the public is now intervening because the

925
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 4: faith that we put in the scientific process was undermined

926
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,240
Speaker 4: by the scientific process itself being politicized. So if it's political,

927
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 4: it ought to be democratic broadly, rather than in some

928
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 4: back room, insular case as.

929
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: Just just as a process.

930
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 4: And I think it shows that the that the approach

931
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 4: that the trans Rise movement took at which was and

932
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 4: this was their strategy from the beginning, was to go

933
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 4: right to the top, like to change minds at the

934
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 4: very top, and then from the top down change everybody

935
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 4: else's mind.

936
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 1: And I think what that it shows is.

937
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 4: That that that is that's not going to work. You

938
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 4: have to change everybody's mind. You have you have to

939
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 4: really reach people rather than.

940
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: Just the elites.

941
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 6: You have to get buy in.

942
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 4: Because they had like one elite buy in for many years,

943
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,839
Speaker 4: and it wasn't enough because people weren't bought in.

944
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 5: This is a really good point about how there was

945
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 5: censorship within like scientists censoring science in a way that

946
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 5: may have ultimately hurt the goal of those scientists.

947
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 8: Right.

948
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 4: They succeeded in their their strategy that worked, but it

949
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:50,919
Speaker 4: didn't work in the long run.

950
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 6: Right, Yes, so short term games might not pan out

951
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 6: long term. Yeah.

952
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 5: I think that's a good point. And this is from

953
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 5: the Times. They say Tennessee is brief. Their legal brief

954
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 5: said that scientific uncertainty meant that legislatures, rather than court

955
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 5: should decide what treatments are available to minors. It pointed

956
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 5: to what it said was a lack of consensus abroad.

957
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 5: Politico has a kind of tongue in cheek piece about

958
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 5: how conservatives used to bemoan the influence of European politics

959
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:21,399
Speaker 5: on American politics and laugh about whether we want to import.

960
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 6: European stuff here.

961
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 5: But I think the reason conservatives point to Europe in

962
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 5: this case is that a lot of these smaller concentrated

963
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 5: countries with democratic socialist healthcare systems have really concentrated samples,

964
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 5: and they were all in to your point, their elites

965
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 5: had bought all in on this, the public had bought

966
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 5: all in on this, and then it shifted when those

967
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 5: concentrated samples didn't turn out the right way as they

968
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 5: anticipated they would.

969
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 1: In those cases, there was a medical question.

970
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 4: There was research done, and they care because it's public money, right, like,

971
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 4: is this working.

972
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 1: As a treatment?

973
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 7: Right?

974
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 6: And it didn't. Yeah, I mean it.

975
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 4: Initially the argument was if you don't do this treatment,

976
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:00,760
Speaker 4: these people are going to commit to it side exactly.

977
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 4: And so then he studied it and they're like, oh wait,

978
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:03,839
Speaker 4: there's actually that's not.

979
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 5: There are some other effects too that have to be

980
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 5: factored into a cost benefit analysis about protecting and preserving

981
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 5: the lives of people who are suffering from gender just

982
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 5: for you, an extremely real and anguishing condition if you

983
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 5: talk to people who are going through it. And so

984
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 5: the reason that a lot of conservatives point to it

985
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 5: is that actually it is because it's an example because

986
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 5: these countries were so culturally progressive on the question that

987
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 5: even them walking it back and it's not totally banned.

988
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 5: The Biden administration which joined the parents and doctors that

989
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 5: were suing the State of Tennessee.

990
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 6: Over this law.

991
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 5: The Biden administration. That's why it's USA versus. In this case,

992
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 5: it's the Biden administration joined to the suit. They have

993
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 5: said that in Europe there aren't blanket bands like there's

994
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 5: in Tennessee, which is true. They have basically restricted like

995
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 5: even the cast review from doctor Hillary Cass in the

996
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 5: UK said that some of these treatments should still be

997
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 5: available in some cases. So there aren't blanket bands in

998
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:57,959
Speaker 5: the same way that Tennessee has.

999
00:49:57,920 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: A blanket band. Just feels wrong.

1000
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:04,399
Speaker 5: It's interesting because it's it is saying that in this

1001
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 5: case medical professionals can't like we have outright banned and

1002
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 5: a lot of this came. We can put the second

1003
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 5: element up on the screen. After Matt Walsh got documents

1004
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 5: from the University of from Vanderbilt, I'm sorry inside Vanderbilt.

1005
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 5: The Daily Wires Matt Walsh blog says Benjamin Ryan is

1006
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 5: not exaggering when he takes credit for triggering the Supreme

1007
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 5: Court case over pediatric gender transition treatment. The Tennessee Attorney

1008
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 5: General's brief to the Court in defense of the state's

1009
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 5: ban makes more reference to Walsh on page one. In

1010
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 5: the Fallow twenty twenty two, Walsh publicized the first gender

1011
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,720
Speaker 5: transition treatment and surgeries that Vanderbilt was providing. This prompted

1012
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,399
Speaker 5: the legislature to ban the practice and ultimately gave rise

1013
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 5: to this case against the state that will now reach

1014
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 5: the Supreme Court, and it is being argued by Chase

1015
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 5: Stranger of the ACLU, who is trans. Walsh got documents

1016
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,280
Speaker 5: from that. Basically, we're showing there was like a profit

1017
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 5: motivation inside some of these medical conversations about wishing trans

1018
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 5: care for minors. It's just really icky stuff that obviously

1019
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 5: to your point about getting the buy in, it hurt

1020
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 5: when all of this information starts coming out that there's

1021
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,359
Speaker 5: other motives and that cost benefit analysis.

1022
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:16,320
Speaker 6: And it's not saying it's the only motives.

1023
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 5: I think most of these medical professionals sincerely believed that

1024
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 5: this is life saving care, that this is the right

1025
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 5: thing to do.

1026
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:26,839
Speaker 4: Right and their argument was it's much more it's much

1027
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 4: harder for somebody to transition as an adult than it

1028
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 4: is to transition as a child before you've gone through

1029
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 4: the puberty and that sex you were born into. But

1030
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 4: that's a that is an empirical question that was being

1031
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,839
Speaker 4: treated as an empirical fact but had not yet been

1032
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 4: answered exactly, And of course it turns out that you know,

1033
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 4: stopping delaying monking with natural puberty has major implications for

1034
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 4: the development of your every body, of course.

1035
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so then it's a.

1036
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 4: Cost benefit question of what is the what is the

1037
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 4: psychological cost of not doing and delaying it until you

1038
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 4: go through puberty and adult And what about people who

1039
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 4: you know, aren't necessarily sure at ten or nine years

1040
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:16,879
Speaker 4: old exactly what they want to do, and if they

1041
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 4: do something at nine or ten that's irreversible, what is

1042
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 4: the cost of that and is it being factored in right?

1043
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 5: No, I think it is a really good point about

1044
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 5: the way the even the way some of this was

1045
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 5: explained to the public and to parents has been overreach

1046
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 5: in a way that's hurt the cause of the people

1047
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 5: who were trying to promote these treatments in the first place,

1048
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 5: because it ends up leaving people like feeling and so

1049
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 5: the rug was pulled out from under them, and then

1050
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,879
Speaker 5: not trusting and saying like, yes, blanket banned, there's no

1051
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:52,800
Speaker 5: appropriate way to prescribe these medications for this condition, et cetera.

1052
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,959
Speaker 5: So I think that is an important point, and of course,

1053
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 5: what they're actually deciding at the Supreme Court today.

1054
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,280
Speaker 6: Is sex discriminate. It's a different question.

1055
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 5: That's what the argument is going to be over whether

1056
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 5: or not this is Obviously, it'll factor in whether or

1057
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 5: not this is these treatments are appropriate. Obviously, what's being

1058
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 5: argued by the State of Tennessee is that these are experimental.

1059
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 5: And that's kind of what we're getting at you. If

1060
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 5: you're not being honest about whether these treatments are experimental,

1061
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 5: that can factor in. So there will be some debate

1062
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 5: about the merits of the treatments. But sex discrimination, it's

1063
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 5: sort of like the Boss Doc case, a really sort

1064
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 5: of fascinating constitutional issue at hand. All right, let's move

1065
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 5: on to our guest, Ryan, I'm excited to talk to

1066
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 5: Ben Wickler.

1067
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 4: Ben Wickler, candidate for DNC chair and current chair of

1068
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 4: the Wisconsin Democratic Party.

1069
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 1: Stick around for that.

1070
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 4: Well, the illustrious tenure of Jamie Harrison is coming to

1071
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 4: an end of the Democratic National Committee, which means this

1072
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 4: mess of a party now is a new leader leaping

1073
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 4: at the opportunity to take on that thankless task. Is

1074
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 4: Ben Wickler, among other people. Ben is currently the chair

1075
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 4: of the Democratic Party in Wisconsin. And look, anybody that

1076
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 4: comes on this show, I think is already in our

1077
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 4: minds one of our favorites for the job. So, Ben,

1078
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 4: thank you for joining us.

1079
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:22,280
Speaker 8: Good morning, thanks for having me on today.

1080
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, so let's start with the question of the basic question,

1081
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 4: why do you think democrats lost and what can democrats

1082
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 4: do differently and what is the DNC's role in facilitating that.

1083
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 11: The big picture this year is that in every wealthy

1084
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 11: democracy around the world, left right and center parties lost votes.

1085
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 11: And when you look at who they lost, it's not

1086
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 11: concentrated among one when ethic group, or one racial group,

1087
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 11: or one gender or one geography.

1088
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:57,720
Speaker 8: It is across the board.

1089
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 11: The biggest uniting thing is people who are the most

1090
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 11: affected by high prices. And the second thing, in my view,

1091
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 11: something that's much under discussed, is that it's people who

1092
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 11: were the beneficiaries of support during the COVID pandemic that

1093
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 11: dramatically raised the income that people had, especially in the

1094
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 11: bottom end of the economic spectrum, and then that support

1095
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 11: went away. And so even though wages were growing more

1096
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 11: at the bottom end of the economic spectrum for the

1097
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:24,720
Speaker 11: first time in a long time in the United States,

1098
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 11: thanks to a lot of policies that they strongly support people's

1099
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 11: experience of how much money they had went down at

1100
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 11: the same time as prices went up, and the fury

1101
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 11: and frustration about that for folks who had to choose

1102
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,240
Speaker 11: between filling a prescription or buying groceries. That led people

1103
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 11: to vote for something different. It's not an endorsement of

1104
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 11: Trump's plans or policies. The highest swing came among the

1105
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 11: people paying the least attention to political news, and the

1106
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 11: biggest swing towards the strongest support from Harris came from

1107
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 11: people who knew the most about her policies and Trump's.

1108
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 11: And what that tells us about what we have to

1109
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 11: do is that we have to mount a permanent campaign

1110
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 11: that actually breaks through and reaches people who are not

1111
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 11: paying attention to politics to make totally clear that we

1112
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 11: are fighting for them and what the other side plans

1113
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 11: to do to them, which is to rip them off

1114
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 11: in order to enrich a handful of the wealthiest people

1115
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 11: in the universe who are now peopling the Donald Trump

1116
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 11: incoming administration.

1117
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's true.

1118
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 4: I think twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two kind

1119
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 4: of opened a window to people that said, oh wait,

1120
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,839
Speaker 4: you actually can have a better world. Like overnight, we

1121
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 4: cut child poverty in half, and Democrats were celebrating it. Look,

1122
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 4: we cut child poverty and half, like, wow, we can

1123
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 4: do that. We increased unemployment benefits to such that people

1124
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:38,920
Speaker 4: who lost their jobs had a little bit.

1125
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: More breathing room as they.

1126
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:43,839
Speaker 4: Were looking for a new work, and then we took

1127
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 4: it all away.

1128
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 1: So I think you're exactly right about that.

1129
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 4: But then what can Democrats do about that between now

1130
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 4: and the next election and also.

1131
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 8: In general, Well, we know the biggest policy battle most

1132
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 8: likely for next year already, which is that the Trump

1133
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 8: administration last time they were in their one major signature

1134
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 8: legislative accomplishment was passing a multi trillion dollar tax cut

1135
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 8: for billionaires and giant corporations, and that expires next year.

1136
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:14,840
Speaker 8: And so we know that there's going to be a

1137
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 8: huge fight in Congress over what should happen with those

1138
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 8: tax cuts and with that money. And we know that

1139
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 8: the Republicans across the board are going to try to

1140
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 8: shovel gigantic amounts of money that a lot of people

1141
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 8: could urgently benefit from instead to the people who already

1142
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 8: have the most. And Democrats can unite and fight back

1143
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 8: against that at every level in a way that makes

1144
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 8: absolutely clear whose side we're on and whose side the

1145
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 8: GOP is on. In this moment, there's a lot of disagreements,

1146
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 8: and it's a healthy thing within the Democratic Coalition, but

1147
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 8: there is a united belief that we shouldn't be dismantling

1148
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 8: the support that the middle class and working class folks

1149
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 8: across this country rely on in order to enrich the

1150
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 8: already ultra wealthy. And that's a fight that we can

1151
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 8: wage that resonates across our whole coalition, and it will

1152
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 8: be in this center of the fight next year. So

1153
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 8: that my platform is unite, Fight, Win. We're going to

1154
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 8: do that next year, and we've got to do that

1155
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 8: each year to show who we're for and who the

1156
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 8: Republicans are for, why they're trying to divide us in

1157
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 8: order to rip us off. I think if we do that,

1158
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 8: we're going to be able to make dramatic gains at

1159
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 8: the state level and local level, at congressional level, and

1160
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 8: build up towards a chance to win control the government

1161
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 8: back in the twenty twenty eight elections.

1162
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 5: Ben there are or are there structural changes that need

1163
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 5: to happen when it comes to fundraising, Obviously Democrats have

1164
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 5: benefited significantly from corporate money and from billionaires as well

1165
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 5: as Republicans. So would you commit to changing fundraising practices

1166
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 5: at the DNC or does anything like that need to

1167
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 5: happen at the DNC so that the party becomes more

1168
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 5: recentered with working class voters.

1169
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 11: So I think the biggest thing for me is to

1170
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 11: win the political power to change the rules that affect everybody.

1171
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 11: And the second thing is I think as Democrats we

1172
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 11: should be clear about the big uniting values we fight for,

1173
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:00,120
Speaker 11: which is including very much fighting for working people and

1174
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 11: fighting for the fundamental idea that everyone deserves freedom and respect.

1175
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 11: And folks can invest in that or not, and hope

1176
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 11: they I hope that they do do it it to that,

1177
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 11: but we're not going to shrink away from that kind

1178
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:11,920
Speaker 11: of fight. We're not going to try to make a

1179
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 11: deal to give, you know, half as many trillion dollars

1180
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 11: to billionaires in order to curry favor with folks who

1181
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 11: might decide to support the Republicans or Democrats. If only

1182
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 11: Democrats would get on board with Trump's policies on this,

1183
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 11: I think we have to fight for what we're for

1184
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 11: and then list as much support as we can to

1185
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 11: build a winning coalition to make that happen.

1186
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 4: And so your roots are really on the kind of

1187
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 4: progressive wing of the Democratic Party. But the people who

1188
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 4: are voting on who becomes DNC chair, they are not

1189
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:46,000
Speaker 4: a whole lot of people from that wing. So I'm

1190
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 4: curious as you're kind of positioning yourself for DNC chair,

1191
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:52,680
Speaker 4: like tell our viewers like who votes for DNC, what

1192
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 4: types of Democrats are those and how does that shape

1193
00:59:57,640 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 4: how the DNC thinks about what it's going to do.

1194
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 11: But my job before being the state party chair in

1195
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 11: Wisconsin was the Washington d C director at move On

1196
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 11: and It move On, I was deeply involved in the

1197
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 11: fight against the repeal of the Affordable Care Act, and

1198
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 11: then moved back to Wisconsin when I ran for wisdam's chair,

1199
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:15,920
Speaker 11: I discovered a lot of the people voting in the

1200
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:19,720
Speaker 11: electorate for chair of the state party. We're getting my

1201
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 11: emails at move On and they knew about that work.

1202
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 11: The members of the DNC, they represent the full kind

1203
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 11: of ideological coalition to the Democratic Party. But the central

1204
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 11: thing is that they believe in the Democratic Party as

1205
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 11: a force that can make positive change in people's lives.

1206
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 11: And that is a belief that I deeply share. And

1207
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 11: I know there's lots of critics left, right and center.

1208
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 11: I think that the Democratic Party has been a driving

1209
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 11: force behind many of the biggest steps forward in our

1210
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 11: country's history. It is absolutely there's lots of other moments

1211
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 11: that are in our history, but we need to build

1212
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 11: on those things that are good. And what I've done

1213
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 11: in Wisconsin, my pitch now is that I can help

1214
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 11: you unite a party where we're going to be a

1215
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 11: big tent. We're not going to force out folks who

1216
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:04,439
Speaker 11: identify as centrist or moderate, or folks who or folks

1217
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 11: that was my coffee, folks who identify as progressive. We're

1218
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 11: going to find the big uniting values and fights that

1219
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 11: can bring us together. And in Wisconsin, you know there

1220
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 11: are Democrats running in different kinds of districts who have

1221
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 11: different views. Often, I think to identify as a centrist

1222
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 11: means to say to voters who believed in a caricature

1223
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 11: of what the left believes in. No, I don't believe

1224
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 11: in that caricature. But centrist Democrats, progressive Democrats, everyone are

1225
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,360
Speaker 11: going to be together and fighting against Trump's giant ripof

1226
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 11: attempt next year and against his most extreme and awful nominees.

1227
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 11: There's a whole bunch of stuff that brings us together

1228
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 11: as a party, and we have to find the energy

1229
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 11: that comes from those kinds of fights in order to demonstrate.

1230
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 8: While we're about and.

1231
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 5: Ben and I are both from Wisconsin, but as someone

1232
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 5: on the right, I've been kind of fascinated by the

1233
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 5: debate swirling over whether or not the Kamala is for

1234
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 5: quote unquote. They then add that the Trump campaign ran

1235
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 5: over and over again in swing states actually was working.

1236
01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 5: Is that something that significantly moved voters. There's some research

1237
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:01,600
Speaker 5: that says it did move voters. So I'm curious Ben

1238
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 5: fear take on whether that ad was successful in states

1239
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 5: like Wisconsin, where obviously you oversaw Tammy Baldwin overperforming Kamala

1240
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:14,040
Speaker 5: Harris and Tammy Baldwin obviously openly gay, So there's something

1241
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:16,960
Speaker 5: to that as well when we're considering the ad in question,

1242
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:20,920
Speaker 5: So was that ad successful? If so, why and what

1243
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 5: would you do to sort of combat messaging like that

1244
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 5: from Republicans in a way that helps Democrats win the

1245
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 5: war there?

1246
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 11: Well, what's interesting is the states where that ad was

1247
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 11: being run the most are the states where the shift

1248
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 11: towards Trump were the least. The Wisconsin had a shift

1249
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 11: of one and a half points towards Trump relative to

1250
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 11: twenty twenty. Nationwide, it was six points. Outside the battleground states,

1251
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 11: it was six points seven points. So the places where

1252
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 11: Trump campaigned the hardest and Harris campaign the hardest, Harris

1253
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:49,640
Speaker 11: did better than the places where neither of them were campaigning.

1254
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 11: And we saw the same flood, a massive flood of

1255
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 11: anti transads attacking Tammy Baldwin and down ballot Democrats. We

1256
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 11: flipped fourteen state legislative seats and Tammy Baldwin won her race.

1257
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 11: I think the central argument in that ad that I

1258
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:05,080
Speaker 11: would guess, did have some effect, and they ran a

1259
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 11: lot of tests of It was an argument about who

1260
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 11: signed Tammy's on because she's for they them, which is

1261
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 11: a bid to I guess non binary phobia, not for you.

1262
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 11: It was an argument that she wants to spend money

1263
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 11: on people other than you, and that was tapping into

1264
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 11: it was trying to inflame division and fear, and at

1265
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:26,320
Speaker 11: the same time it was making an economic argument that

1266
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 11: she's not focused on your priorities and fighting for people

1267
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 11: like you. And this is a context where Democrats lost

1268
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 11: people making under fifty thousand dollars a year. So there's

1269
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 11: a cultural message. But the central, big message that Trump

1270
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 11: was trying to win with was I'll bring down your prices,

1271
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 11: i won't do taxes on tips.

1272
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 8: I'm going to be you know, do all this stuff.

1273
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 11: And for Democrats, puncturing that and showing that in fact

1274
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 11: Trump is not is completely against working people. He's the

1275
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 11: guy who smashes unions and wants to fire people who

1276
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 11: are striking. He's the guy who wants to carve up

1277
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:59,280
Speaker 11: the federal government and give them handouts to people with

1278
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 11: hundreds of billions of dollars in their bank accounts. That

1279
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 11: argument can puncture those kinds of appeals to division that

1280
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 11: are that are fundamentally about othering some community in order

1281
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 11: to make voters feel like Democrats would put them in

1282
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 11: an out group. And I think we need to be

1283
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 11: able to narrate and explain why they're doing that and

1284
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 11: then punch back. And we have won a lot of

1285
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 11: races in the face of those attacks up and down

1286
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 11: the ballot in the state of Wisconsin.

1287
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 8: We can do the same thing nationwide.

1288
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:26,800
Speaker 4: Our colleague Crystal has made an interesting point about that

1289
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:30,520
Speaker 4: ad which I agree with, which is that and actually

1290
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 4: flows out of your point that it was the he's

1291
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:36,760
Speaker 4: for you part of it that may that probably landed

1292
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 4: harder than the previous part. But the idea that Democrats

1293
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 4: care about other stuff like they're that they're not they're

1294
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 4: not serious about taking care of your needs here domestically,

1295
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 4: And I think there's a counterintuitive kind of connection to

1296
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:57,480
Speaker 4: democratic foreign policy there as well, Like I feel like

1297
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:02,160
Speaker 4: the amount of energy and time forget the money, but

1298
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 4: the money matters too, but the amount of focus on

1299
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 4: the war in Ukraine and also the Israeli genocide going

1300
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:11,720
Speaker 4: on in God's a plus that which then you know,

1301
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 4: unspooled into this regional conflict beginning really in October, the

1302
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:21,280
Speaker 4: worst possible time for the for the Biden Harris team deliberately,

1303
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:24,320
Speaker 4: so I'm sure you know from that Yahu's perspective, But

1304
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:29,280
Speaker 4: as voters see Biden focusing so much on things overseas,

1305
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:35,360
Speaker 4: the war's overseas, it feeds into that perception that Democrats

1306
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 4: care about things other than what's going on here to

1307
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 4: me at this moment, So I'm curious for you, what

1308
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 4: role do you think the the kind of more militaristic

1309
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 4: approach that Democrats took bringing Liz Cheney onto state, onto

1310
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 4: the stage with them really in Wisconsin, like really solidify

1311
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 4: that idea that this is the thing that we care about.

1312
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 4: Uh do you think that that hurt Democrats?

1313
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:01,240
Speaker 11: So I know that others disagree with me on this,

1314
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:03,640
Speaker 11: I don't think it hurt Democrats. And I will say

1315
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 11: that the counties where we actually increased not just the

1316
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 11: number of Democratic votes, but actually increased the margins worthy

1317
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:14,959
Speaker 11: suburbs of Milwaukee, they moved towards Democrats this year, while

1318
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:16,440
Speaker 11: the rest of the country and the rest of the

1319
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 11: state moved a little bit in Wisconsin on a lot

1320
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 11: nationally towards Trump. And the question is you know which

1321
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 11: message wound up landing the most. You have to be

1322
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 11: a pre tuned in voter to think to think about

1323
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 11: foreign policy. When you see Liz Janey Kamala Harris on

1324
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:35,720
Speaker 11: stage talking about democracy and talking about how across the

1325
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:38,080
Speaker 11: spectrum we think that Trump is a disaster. Now you

1326
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 11: have to be a fairly tuned in voter to be

1327
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:42,720
Speaker 11: thinking about democracy too. It's not a message that if

1328
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:45,160
Speaker 11: you're trying to figure out how to not lose the

1329
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:46,880
Speaker 11: place where you put your kids to bed at night

1330
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:49,800
Speaker 11: because the cost of housing is so high, you're probably

1331
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:52,760
Speaker 11: not thinking about, you know, the erosion of democratic norms.

1332
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 11: So this is a message that was fine tuned towards

1333
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:57,560
Speaker 11: voters who were still trying to make up their minds,

1334
01:06:57,560 --> 01:07:00,480
Speaker 11: who had misgivings about Trump. But from the evidence that

1335
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:02,720
Speaker 11: I can see, it did move those voters. At the

1336
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:05,920
Speaker 11: same time, your broader point that a lot of Trump's

1337
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 11: argument against the foreign policy of the Biden administration and

1338
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:13,720
Speaker 11: of previous Republicans is fundamentally about this is all about

1339
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 11: other people elsewhere, and we should be focused on right here.

1340
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:19,440
Speaker 11: That's the kind of core of America first, and that

1341
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 11: is a is a potent argument, especially when people are

1342
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 11: in economic pain. And I think that for Democrats centering

1343
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:29,160
Speaker 11: the fight of the moment on actually being on people's side,

1344
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:32,040
Speaker 11: understanding their struggles and fighting to change it and explaining

1345
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:35,760
Speaker 11: why it's so hard, why it's so expensive. The fact

1346
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:39,200
Speaker 11: that every single Republican voted against trying to expand the

1347
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 11: extend the child the child tax credit, for example, and

1348
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:45,760
Speaker 11: voted against support for childgaard and against support for housing.

1349
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 11: All these things every Republican voted against them, and a

1350
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:51,560
Speaker 11: couple of Democrats didn't, you know, weren't ready to go along.

1351
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 11: But there's overwhelming, near unanimity, and I think in this

1352
01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 11: Congress could be unanimity around extended priorities that actually do

1353
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 11: go directly to people lived experience and struggle. I'm a

1354
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 11: believer that people vote, as Kelly and Conway said, who

1355
01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:07,600
Speaker 11: I don't agree with mon much. Fundamentally, people vote on

1356
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:10,200
Speaker 11: what affects them, not what offends them. And I think

1357
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:13,040
Speaker 11: when you look at a lot of the Republican ads

1358
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:15,000
Speaker 11: and messaging, you think it's about something that defends you,

1359
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:17,599
Speaker 11: but it's actually a way of saying Democrats are focused

1360
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:19,599
Speaker 11: on a thing that offends you, and they're not focused

1361
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 11: on what affects you. And for Democrats, our strongest argument

1362
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:25,000
Speaker 11: against that is to fight about the things that affect

1363
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 11: people in a way that provokes a reaction from the Republicans,

1364
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:30,639
Speaker 11: to make clear whose side they're on if they're out

1365
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:34,040
Speaker 11: there trying to protect the rights of the ultra ultra wealthy,

1366
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:38,559
Speaker 11: to smash social security, and to break apart the supports

1367
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:41,160
Speaker 11: that allow people to have a middle class life and

1368
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:43,799
Speaker 11: be able to support their kids. If Republicans are defending

1369
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:46,760
Speaker 11: that terrible policy and weird on offense, then that makes

1370
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:49,680
Speaker 11: clear what the battle lines are. And that's why it's

1371
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:51,599
Speaker 11: so critical that we engage in these fights, as we

1372
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:54,120
Speaker 11: did in the healthcare fight that became the defining issue

1373
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:56,519
Speaker 11: of twenty eighteen. Because we fought so hard in twenty

1374
01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 11: seventeen again to repeal the Affordable Care Act. That changes

1375
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:01,760
Speaker 11: what an election is about, and that to me is

1376
01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:02,680
Speaker 11: a cute role for.

1377
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:03,599
Speaker 8: The Democratic Party.

1378
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:05,960
Speaker 11: It is to help define and narrate where the battle

1379
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:09,200
Speaker 11: lines are in a way where the large majority of

1380
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 11: the country actually wants a country that works for working people,

1381
01:09:12,320 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 11: and as shared focus on building infrastructure in every state,

1382
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:18,439
Speaker 11: figuring out the critical fights we need to have, making

1383
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:20,519
Speaker 11: sure we have that people and the resources to do them,

1384
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:23,639
Speaker 11: and then leaning into those fights that bring the majority

1385
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:25,640
Speaker 11: of the country together against people who are trying to

1386
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 11: rip off almost everyone else.

1387
01:09:27,280 --> 01:09:28,720
Speaker 5: And one of the reasons I think your bit is

1388
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,680
Speaker 5: so compelling of people is that the Wisconsin Democratic Party was,

1389
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 5: let me put this in a charitable way, sort of

1390
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:37,040
Speaker 5: a mess in the Scott Walker years, sort of wandering

1391
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:38,840
Speaker 5: in the wilderness in the Scott Walker years. But What

1392
01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:41,000
Speaker 5: was always interesting about the Scott Walker years is that

1393
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:44,840
Speaker 5: Wisconsin isn't exactly a purple state, is a pretty blue state,

1394
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 5: and these kind of Tea Party era austerity messages were

1395
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:51,559
Speaker 5: for some reason attractive to Wisconsin voters, not just at

1396
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:55,200
Speaker 5: the top of the goodnatorial ticket, but down ballot in races,

1397
01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:58,920
Speaker 5: assembly races, Senate race, state Senate races around the state

1398
01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:00,839
Speaker 5: for a number of your it was almost a decade,

1399
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:03,080
Speaker 5: And I guess I'm curious been what lessons you took

1400
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 5: from bringing the Democratic Party of Wisconsin out of the

1401
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:10,040
Speaker 5: wilderness after the Scott Walker era. Why were those policies

1402
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:13,720
Speaker 5: so attractive to Wisconsin voters at that time, and how

1403
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:17,559
Speaker 5: did Democrats sort of rebuild and repitch their message after

1404
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 5: that era.

1405
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:21,040
Speaker 11: So I agree with you that I think there's a

1406
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:24,200
Speaker 11: kind of beating blue heart or a heart that is

1407
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:27,600
Speaker 11: at the root of the progressive movement is in Wisconsin.

1408
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:30,559
Speaker 8: And there's also a far right straight in Wisconsin.

1409
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 11: The John Birch Society is based in Appleton, and Jail

1410
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:37,679
Speaker 11: Gunner Joe McCarthy came from Wisconsin, and both Wisconsin's exists.

1411
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:40,719
Speaker 11: They're always in contention for political power in the state.

1412
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:44,679
Speaker 11: We saw this zigzag where Obama won a massive landslide

1413
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:46,680
Speaker 11: in two thousand and eight, Scott Walker won big. In

1414
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:49,800
Speaker 11: twenty ten, Obama went again and Tammy Baldin in twenty twelve.

1415
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:53,240
Speaker 11: Scott Walker won again in twenty fourteen. In twenty sixteen,

1416
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:55,800
Speaker 11: what we saw was the culmination of what Walker and

1417
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 11: Republicans did in all those years, which is to rig

1418
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:01,800
Speaker 11: the state, to break our de mindocracy. They gerrymandered the

1419
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 11: living daylights out of our legislative districts. They suppressed voting rights,

1420
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:08,600
Speaker 11: they smashed unions, They defunded public education and public services.

1421
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:12,200
Speaker 11: They used every tool they could to try to undermine

1422
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:16,040
Speaker 11: the basis of worker power and of people power, out

1423
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:20,200
Speaker 11: of an educated citizenry, and all the things that allow

1424
01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 11: what the public wants to be expressed through their votes

1425
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:25,840
Speaker 11: and turn into public policy. And that culminated in twenty

1426
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:27,840
Speaker 11: sixteen when Trump won the state. He was the first

1427
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:31,240
Speaker 11: Republican to win the state of Wisconsin since nineteen eighty eight.

1428
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:35,720
Speaker 8: Now that said, it was also a very close year, and.

1429
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:38,120
Speaker 11: Wisconsin elections are close over and over five the last

1430
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:40,640
Speaker 11: seven presidential racism Wisconsin have come down to less than

1431
01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:43,479
Speaker 11: one percentage point So the thing for me has been

1432
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:46,839
Speaker 11: to work with our whole coalition, with our amazing allies

1433
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:49,240
Speaker 11: and local activists all over the state and say we

1434
01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:52,960
Speaker 11: need a permanent campaign that organizes in every corner of

1435
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:55,880
Speaker 11: the state of Wisconsin, that builds trusted local communicators to

1436
01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:59,439
Speaker 11: communicate with their own communities door to door, neighbored in neighbor,

1437
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:03,000
Speaker 11: organizing campaigns that'll operate year round, and not just in

1438
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 11: the big elections, but also things like state Supreme Court races,

1439
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:07,960
Speaker 11: which you know, to make this vivid, we just had

1440
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:10,200
Speaker 11: an election. We're gearing up for a state Supreme Court

1441
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:15,120
Speaker 11: race this spring April. First, Susan Crawford, a judge who

1442
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:17,720
Speaker 11: defended Planned Parenthood in court and its defended workers' rights

1443
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:21,160
Speaker 11: against Brad Shimmel, who was Scott Walker's Attorney general and

1444
01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:23,519
Speaker 11: helped lead the fight against the Affordable Care Act for

1445
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:27,479
Speaker 11: abortion bands for gerrymandering, defended that in court, supported Act

1446
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:30,760
Speaker 11: ten and terrible anti worker policies. That fight is gearing

1447
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:33,200
Speaker 11: up right now, and we have an organizing team right

1448
01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:36,200
Speaker 11: now pulling together the voter universes, making the plans. Will

1449
01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:38,240
Speaker 11: be knocking on doors in freezing cold in the winter

1450
01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:40,559
Speaker 11: of this year, and it's by winning those fights that

1451
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:42,800
Speaker 11: we've been able to unrave the legislative maps that allowed

1452
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:45,760
Speaker 11: us to flip fourteen state legislative seats this November. I

1453
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,120
Speaker 11: think there are Sudent Crawford's and Brad Shimmels running for

1454
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:50,880
Speaker 11: offices no one's ever heard of nationwide, and that, to

1455
01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:53,640
Speaker 11: me is what the Democratic Party nationally should partner with

1456
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:57,160
Speaker 11: state parties and local parties around this around the country

1457
01:12:57,320 --> 01:13:00,519
Speaker 11: to lean into those battles because those have enormous ballot

1458
01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:04,360
Speaker 11: consequences and can help tip presidential elections. If you make

1459
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:07,040
Speaker 11: sure that the rules actually empower people to have a voice,

1460
01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:09,680
Speaker 11: then you can stop those who want to put our

1461
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:12,200
Speaker 11: democracy in chains for being able to rate the system

1462
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:13,320
Speaker 11: to ensure that they stay in power.

1463
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:15,280
Speaker 4: And I wanted to ask you about one of the

1464
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:17,800
Speaker 4: more high profile things that you've been criticized about by

1465
01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:21,680
Speaker 4: some party activists, and that is ballot access during the

1466
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:26,960
Speaker 4: presidential the twenty twenty four presidential election, Dean Phillips kind

1467
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:29,840
Speaker 4: of sued the Wisconsin Party, which you're the chair of,

1468
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:33,559
Speaker 4: in order to get on the ballot, and some party

1469
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 4: activists have said that you and the Wisconsin Democratic Party

1470
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:39,960
Speaker 4: were too closed off and made it too hard, you know,

1471
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:43,080
Speaker 4: for people to get on the ballot, and that's anti

1472
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:46,439
Speaker 4: democratic and so on. Now, I personally don't think that

1473
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:49,800
Speaker 4: this issue will be relevant in the DNC race, And

1474
01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:52,559
Speaker 4: because I think DNC delegates don't care about that, I

1475
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:54,479
Speaker 4: think that's a different problem.

1476
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:55,200
Speaker 1: I think they should.

1477
01:13:55,240 --> 01:13:56,639
Speaker 4: I think they should care about it, But I think

1478
01:13:56,680 --> 01:13:59,160
Speaker 4: the kind of the party insiders you're going to choose

1479
01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:01,600
Speaker 4: this or probably all on the side of following the

1480
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:04,240
Speaker 4: following the rules, and if Dean Phillips doesn't follow rules,

1481
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:08,080
Speaker 4: you screw him. But I wanted you to give your

1482
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:11,960
Speaker 4: your your perspective and your counter to this criticism that

1483
01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:14,639
Speaker 4: that the Wisconsin Democratic Party kind of unfairly kept people

1484
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:18,800
Speaker 4: off off the ballot, and that Joe Biden really needed

1485
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:21,720
Speaker 4: a challenge, and that the lack of a challenge to

1486
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:25,720
Speaker 4: him was one of the things that undermined Democrats when

1487
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:29,599
Speaker 4: it came to, you know, the final election results.

1488
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:33,000
Speaker 11: So in Wisconsin, there's two ways on the on the

1489
01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:36,400
Speaker 11: presidential ballot if you're running in a Democratic or Republican primary.

1490
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:39,719
Speaker 11: The first is that the party, which had long before

1491
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:43,640
Speaker 11: endorsed Joe Biden, can put the names of candidates on

1492
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:46,479
Speaker 11: the ballot at a meeting that's held. And then the second,

1493
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:50,680
Speaker 11: which my team explained to Dean Phillips' campaign manager, is

1494
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:52,840
Speaker 11: that you can go and collect eight thousand signatures from

1495
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:55,559
Speaker 11: your supporters to get you on the ballot, and you

1496
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:58,360
Speaker 11: have a period to do that, and we collect many,

1497
01:14:58,439 --> 01:15:01,280
Speaker 11: many times that number of signatures for ballot access. We're

1498
01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:03,559
Speaker 11: in the midst of doing that right now for local candidates.

1499
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:05,160
Speaker 11: We'll get on the ballot for school board and city

1500
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 11: council races. That work happens in winter in Wisconsin every

1501
01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:13,080
Speaker 11: single year because every spring there's a spring election, and

1502
01:15:13,120 --> 01:15:16,600
Speaker 11: the Phillips campaign decided not to do any organizing. I

1503
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:18,840
Speaker 11: don't know if they had supporters, they could have asked

1504
01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:21,559
Speaker 11: to go and stand outside a grocery store and ask

1505
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:23,200
Speaker 11: people to sign the nomination papers.

1506
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:24,200
Speaker 8: But this is a.

1507
01:15:24,120 --> 01:15:26,880
Speaker 11: Matter of course for almost everyone who gets on the

1508
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:29,479
Speaker 11: ballot for every office in the state of Wisconsin, and

1509
01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 11: they chose not to do it, and instead they decided

1510
01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:33,200
Speaker 11: to go to court and then launch a media campaign

1511
01:15:33,280 --> 01:15:35,599
Speaker 11: to say that this was the big Party stomping out

1512
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:38,120
Speaker 11: their right to get on the ballot and run for president.

1513
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:42,280
Speaker 11: They wound up getting sixteen thousand votes. They did worse

1514
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:45,000
Speaker 11: than Rona Santis in Wisconsin who dropped out a long

1515
01:15:45,040 --> 01:15:49,519
Speaker 11: time before on the Republican side. And you know, ultimately,

1516
01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:51,200
Speaker 11: to me, I think you have to be able to

1517
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:53,960
Speaker 11: demonstrate and build support and do some organizing if you

1518
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:56,200
Speaker 11: want to run for president of the United States or

1519
01:15:56,280 --> 01:15:59,920
Speaker 11: just about any office. So I hear the criticism, but

1520
01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:02,000
Speaker 11: to me, there was a very clear path that my

1521
01:16:02,040 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 11: team made clear to the campaign that they chose not

1522
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:06,400
Speaker 11: to take and have decided instead to launch a media

1523
01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:07,160
Speaker 11: campaign about it.

1524
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:10,320
Speaker 4: Once they launched the media campaign, why not just fold

1525
01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:11,000
Speaker 4: and put them on?

1526
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:11,680
Speaker 1: All right?

1527
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:12,160
Speaker 7: Fine?

1528
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:13,680
Speaker 1: And why not put it?

1529
01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:16,280
Speaker 4: Why in the party just put him on like in

1530
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:18,519
Speaker 4: that meeting because it was clear he was running, or

1531
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:20,240
Speaker 4: maybe he wasn't running by then, I don't know.

1532
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:22,360
Speaker 8: He was he was.

1533
01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:24,439
Speaker 11: I mean, they they reached out and asked about what

1534
01:16:24,439 --> 01:16:28,639
Speaker 11: the process does. We explained that that process. They they

1535
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:32,080
Speaker 11: sent a letter about their candidacy. They didn't literally ask.

1536
01:16:32,080 --> 01:16:33,599
Speaker 11: I'm sure they would have liked us to put them

1537
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:35,920
Speaker 11: on the ballot. We had an extensive message with a

1538
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:39,200
Speaker 11: very clear ass from the Biden campaign. But fundamentally, if

1539
01:16:39,200 --> 01:16:40,920
Speaker 11: you're going to challenge US sitting president. You should have

1540
01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:44,439
Speaker 11: a campaign that builds capacity to do that. And we're

1541
01:16:44,479 --> 01:16:47,519
Speaker 11: the Democratic Party of Wisconsin had endorsed Joe Biden, and

1542
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:50,880
Speaker 11: you know there the opportunity for them was right there

1543
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:53,679
Speaker 11: in the law. They didn't launch the media campaign until

1544
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 11: they launched the lawsuit the day before the filing deadline

1545
01:16:56,200 --> 01:16:59,559
Speaker 11: for those signatures. So I was honestly a little bit baffled.

1546
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:01,599
Speaker 11: I thought that the period where they were collecting signatures

1547
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:03,360
Speaker 11: and then said that was when they were preparing their lawsuit.

1548
01:17:03,800 --> 01:17:06,040
Speaker 11: But you know that is that, that is how it

1549
01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:07,920
Speaker 11: went down. There are different rules in different states, but

1550
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:10,400
Speaker 11: in Wisconsin it's there's a very clear path for people

1551
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:13,800
Speaker 11: who want to challenge, you know, challenge, want to get

1552
01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:15,800
Speaker 11: on the ballot, even if a party didn't put them there.

1553
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:19,720
Speaker 11: And this is something that you know, for decades has

1554
01:17:19,720 --> 01:17:21,840
Speaker 11: been the practice when there's an in common president, the

1555
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 11: party puts that candidate on and other people, you know,

1556
01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:26,320
Speaker 11: go collect some signatures if they want to get on

1557
01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:26,719
Speaker 11: the ballot.

1558
01:17:27,760 --> 01:17:29,519
Speaker 1: I guess the family doesn't have anything else.

1559
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:31,600
Speaker 4: Last question, we would be and some news that is

1560
01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:35,639
Speaker 4: breaking this morning, Third Way Endorse has endorsed your bid

1561
01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 4: for d M c chair. From my perspective, that's kind

1562
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:41,360
Speaker 4: of shocking, Like I feel like that should disqualify you.

1563
01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:44,240
Speaker 4: But then on the other hand, Third Way has taken

1564
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:46,840
Speaker 4: some really interesting positions over the last couple of years.

1565
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:49,120
Speaker 4: They've been supportive of the child tax credit like they've been,

1566
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:52,120
Speaker 4: They've been supportive of a lot of kind of social

1567
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:55,600
Speaker 4: spending and even said nice things about Bernie Sanders. You

1568
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 4: and I, you know, twenty years ago, you know, we

1569
01:17:58,240 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 4: remember Third Way being a wortal enemy and you know,

1570
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:04,639
Speaker 4: probably said some pretty vicious things about you back when

1571
01:18:04,640 --> 01:18:07,680
Speaker 4: you move on, what the heck's going on here? How

1572
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:09,800
Speaker 4: did you wind up with Third Wave support? And why

1573
01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:13,799
Speaker 4: shouldn't this just kind of rule you out of contention

1574
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:15,479
Speaker 4: as far as progressives.

1575
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:19,720
Speaker 11: Are concerned, Well, my argument is unite fight when, and

1576
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:23,720
Speaker 11: uniting means bringing a whole bunch of people together to

1577
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:26,120
Speaker 11: fight fights that we can agree on. That I think

1578
01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:29,800
Speaker 11: spell out the core difference between what Republicans are about

1579
01:18:29,840 --> 01:18:32,280
Speaker 11: in this in this era and what Democrats can and

1580
01:18:32,320 --> 01:18:34,800
Speaker 11: should be about in this era. If you read the

1581
01:18:34,840 --> 01:18:36,960
Speaker 11: opb ed I read it this morning, they made the

1582
01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:40,000
Speaker 11: argument that I represent from the Midwest, I see how

1583
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:44,320
Speaker 11: campaigns actually happen in a place that's incredibly you know, contentious,

1584
01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:47,040
Speaker 11: and where Republicans throw everything they can and we fight

1585
01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:49,639
Speaker 11: back and we're able to win more often than we lose.

1586
01:18:50,080 --> 01:18:52,240
Speaker 11: They argue that I'm from a new generation and I

1587
01:18:52,240 --> 01:18:54,880
Speaker 11: think seriously about how we communicate, where we communicate. I'm

1588
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:56,720
Speaker 11: here with you right now. I have a background in

1589
01:18:56,760 --> 01:18:58,400
Speaker 11: new media. There's a lot that we need to do

1590
01:18:58,439 --> 01:19:00,719
Speaker 11: to retool how we reach people who do not trust

1591
01:19:01,080 --> 01:19:04,000
Speaker 11: mainstream media sources or don't tune into political news, and

1592
01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:07,160
Speaker 11: that's something that's non ideological but critical for victory. And

1593
01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:10,080
Speaker 11: then their last point is that I recognize that there

1594
01:19:10,120 --> 01:19:12,280
Speaker 11: will be candidates, you know, in different places in the

1595
01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:15,040
Speaker 11: ideological spectrum, and I believe in a big tent, and

1596
01:19:15,400 --> 01:19:17,320
Speaker 11: I do I think that, you know, I was talking

1597
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:20,000
Speaker 11: to the chair of the Louisiana Democratic Party last night,

1598
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:23,400
Speaker 11: and how you win in Louisiana is very different from

1599
01:19:23,520 --> 01:19:25,759
Speaker 11: how you win in Vermont or lots of different places.

1600
01:19:26,040 --> 01:19:28,479
Speaker 11: But there are some core values that are fundamentally the

1601
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:31,200
Speaker 11: same across all those places. And that's I'll go back

1602
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:34,040
Speaker 11: to where I started this interview. Democrats believe that our

1603
01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:37,599
Speaker 11: economy should work for working people. And there's some debates

1604
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:39,680
Speaker 11: about exactly how to do that, but that is a

1605
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:42,719
Speaker 11: fundamental core belief for this party, and we believe everyone

1606
01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:45,360
Speaker 11: is worthy of freedom and dignity and respect, that that

1607
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:50,320
Speaker 11: is just a fundamental value, and making that case often

1608
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:52,920
Speaker 11: with different language in different places. There'd be different messengers

1609
01:19:52,960 --> 01:19:55,479
Speaker 11: who are more trusted in different places than others, finding

1610
01:19:55,520 --> 01:19:57,800
Speaker 11: ways to puncture the right wing caricature of what it

1611
01:19:57,840 --> 01:20:00,840
Speaker 11: means to be a Democrat. That workplace differently in different

1612
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:03,799
Speaker 11: parts of the country. But fighting for those fundamental values

1613
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:08,519
Speaker 11: is actually uniting victorious proposition, and when voters clearly hear

1614
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:11,360
Speaker 11: what it is that we are actually fighting for, they

1615
01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:13,479
Speaker 11: do respond. And I think we have to get a

1616
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 11: lot better at making those battle lines clear and making

1617
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:19,400
Speaker 11: clear who we're for, which is the many in this country,

1618
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:23,320
Speaker 11: The vast majority of Americans do much better when Democrats

1619
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:26,519
Speaker 11: are able to set these policies. If we can do that,

1620
01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:28,040
Speaker 11: then I think we're going to be able to win

1621
01:20:28,680 --> 01:20:33,240
Speaker 11: sweeping like many, many, many elections down ballot in twenty five, six, seven, eight,

1622
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:37,920
Speaker 11: and we can end this era of pretty frightening kind

1623
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:42,280
Speaker 11: of mega extreme authoritarian attacks and plutocracy. That is the

1624
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:45,360
Speaker 11: ultimate recent white people are backing those attacks. We can

1625
01:20:45,479 --> 01:20:48,000
Speaker 11: end this over the next four years, and there'll be

1626
01:20:48,040 --> 01:20:50,080
Speaker 11: a lot of challenging fights in the middle, but we've

1627
01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:50,920
Speaker 11: got to do this work.

1628
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:53,479
Speaker 4: And I guess just last last question and just quickly,

1629
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:55,920
Speaker 4: I'm just curious personally, because of the work you've done

1630
01:20:55,960 --> 01:20:58,280
Speaker 4: in wisconstant bringing that party back to life. You can

1631
01:20:58,320 --> 01:21:00,880
Speaker 4: kind of punch your own ticket in the party. People

1632
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:03,639
Speaker 4: have talked about you as a potential senator or governor,

1633
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:08,040
Speaker 4: cool jobs. Becoming d NC chair if you actually do

1634
01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:10,559
Speaker 4: it probably sets you back from any of those ambitions

1635
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:12,919
Speaker 4: because DNC chairs are not generally popular.

1636
01:21:14,120 --> 01:21:17,519
Speaker 1: So what are you thinking, Like, why go for this job?

1637
01:21:18,800 --> 01:21:22,280
Speaker 11: I am drawn to this job because the stakes of

1638
01:21:22,320 --> 01:21:24,560
Speaker 11: this job are so enormous, and I think this is

1639
01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:26,360
Speaker 11: a time when I hope a whole lot of people

1640
01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:29,680
Speaker 11: are running into the fire. I think the stakes for

1641
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:32,679
Speaker 11: the rest of our lives, the rest of our kids lives,

1642
01:21:32,720 --> 01:21:34,680
Speaker 11: the rest of the lives of all the people in

1643
01:21:34,720 --> 01:21:37,000
Speaker 11: this entire country are going to be affected by what

1644
01:21:37,080 --> 01:21:39,559
Speaker 11: happens in these next four years. And trying to contain

1645
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:41,680
Speaker 11: the damage and also fight back in a way that

1646
01:21:41,800 --> 01:21:45,559
Speaker 11: builds strength for Democrats and for people who believe in

1647
01:21:45,600 --> 01:21:49,479
Speaker 11: democracy and in an economy that works for everyone. Over

1648
01:21:49,479 --> 01:21:52,240
Speaker 11: these next four years, we can win trifectas in states

1649
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:53,920
Speaker 11: that are out of reach right now. We can break

1650
01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:57,040
Speaker 11: Republican drivevectors. We can break Republican super majorities in states

1651
01:21:57,080 --> 01:22:00,360
Speaker 11: like North Carolina where they just won this critical state

1652
01:22:00,400 --> 01:22:03,320
Speaker 11: Supreme Court race and now Republicans are trying to throw

1653
01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:06,160
Speaker 11: out tens of thousands of votes. We can make changes

1654
01:22:06,200 --> 01:22:08,360
Speaker 11: that will affect people's lives in every corner of the country,

1655
01:22:08,360 --> 01:22:12,000
Speaker 11: including in my state in Wisconsin. And that, to me,

1656
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:14,479
Speaker 11: I'm drawn to this job just for one reason, which

1657
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:16,439
Speaker 11: is the impact that we can have together if we

1658
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:18,519
Speaker 11: unite and fight these fights. I think that if we

1659
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:22,160
Speaker 11: can win, ultimately, the only measure of politics is the

1660
01:22:22,160 --> 01:22:24,400
Speaker 11: impact that it has on people's lives. That's the thing

1661
01:22:24,439 --> 01:22:26,400
Speaker 11: you have to work backwards from when you're deciding what

1662
01:22:26,479 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 11: to do. And if you think that the stakes are

1663
01:22:29,439 --> 01:22:31,720
Speaker 11: as high as I think they are, I think that

1664
01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:34,599
Speaker 11: the opportunity to work with folks in every state across

1665
01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:36,960
Speaker 11: this country with the Democratic Party at this moment, is

1666
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:39,160
Speaker 11: that the highest impact thing we can do to try

1667
01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:40,320
Speaker 11: to create that change the people.

1668
01:22:40,360 --> 01:22:41,120
Speaker 8: That's really need.

1669
01:22:41,760 --> 01:22:44,360
Speaker 4: All right, Well, that's Ben Wickler, chair of the Wisconsin

1670
01:22:44,400 --> 01:22:47,760
Speaker 4: Democratic Party candidate for DNC chair. If you're watching this

1671
01:22:47,880 --> 01:22:49,760
Speaker 4: and your name is Ken Martin or your name is

1672
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:51,680
Speaker 4: Ram Emmanuel, feel free to reach out to us.

1673
01:22:51,680 --> 01:22:54,040
Speaker 1: We're happy to have you on as well. No favorites

1674
01:22:54,080 --> 01:22:58,280
Speaker 1: here at Counterpoints, but then thank you so much for

1675
01:22:58,560 --> 01:22:59,200
Speaker 1: coming on.

1676
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:00,760
Speaker 8: So much for read me.

1677
01:23:01,240 --> 01:23:03,040
Speaker 1: You got it.

1678
01:23:04,360 --> 01:23:04,640
Speaker 7: All right.

1679
01:23:04,680 --> 01:23:08,040
Speaker 4: As you guys know, we covered the independent Senate campaign

1680
01:23:08,080 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 4: of Dan Osborne in Nebraska here quite closely. Osborne was

1681
01:23:12,200 --> 01:23:16,960
Speaker 4: a union leader who led this iconic Kellogg's Strike I

1682
01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:21,160
Speaker 4: think in twenty twenty one in Nebraska, where they saved

1683
01:23:21,160 --> 01:23:24,800
Speaker 4: the enormous number of jobs went out on strike, captivated

1684
01:23:24,840 --> 01:23:28,400
Speaker 4: the tension of the Nebraska public.

1685
01:23:28,840 --> 01:23:31,040
Speaker 1: He then ends up running as an independent pre Senate.

1686
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:34,519
Speaker 4: The Democrats decide not even to run a candidate, which

1687
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:37,320
Speaker 4: was a smart move on their part because they weren't

1688
01:23:37,320 --> 01:23:39,800
Speaker 4: going to be Dan Osborne, who's a veteran, he'd worked

1689
01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:43,000
Speaker 4: in the plant for twenty years. He'd been a registered

1690
01:23:43,040 --> 01:23:46,120
Speaker 4: independent his entire life, or at least since he had

1691
01:23:46,439 --> 01:23:48,840
Speaker 4: registered as an adult to vote when he was eighteen

1692
01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:53,720
Speaker 4: or so. He ended up overperforming basically every other Democrat

1693
01:23:54,479 --> 01:23:56,840
Speaker 4: in the country, but it wasn't enough to win. He

1694
01:23:56,920 --> 01:24:02,280
Speaker 4: still lost fifty three forty seven. Republican incumbent deb Fisher.

1695
01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:06,439
Speaker 4: My colleague over at drop site News, Jessica Burbank, who

1696
01:24:06,439 --> 01:24:09,519
Speaker 4: lives in Iowa, drove over to Nebraska and sat down

1697
01:24:10,120 --> 01:24:13,320
Speaker 4: with Dan Osborne to get his reflections on the race.

1698
01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:15,280
Speaker 1: And we're gonna play this that just in a moment.

1699
01:24:15,439 --> 01:24:17,960
Speaker 4: And one thing, just thank you to everyone here who

1700
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:22,000
Speaker 4: watches this show who has supported drop Site News. Something

1701
01:24:22,040 --> 01:24:25,400
Speaker 4: like ten percent of our paid subscribers come from the

1702
01:24:25,479 --> 01:24:28,320
Speaker 4: kind of breaking points world, and that has enabled us

1703
01:24:28,360 --> 01:24:30,880
Speaker 4: to expand what the reporting that we're able to do.

1704
01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:32,240
Speaker 1: To bring Jessica Burbank on.

1705
01:24:32,320 --> 01:24:34,760
Speaker 4: You guys might know as she filled in for a

1706
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:40,800
Speaker 4: while as Brianna's replacement over at Rising, she quit that

1707
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:43,920
Speaker 4: to join us, which we're proud of, yes, and so

1708
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:45,360
Speaker 4: thank you guys for that.

1709
01:24:46,040 --> 01:24:49,559
Speaker 1: So here is and so the reporting that we're.

1710
01:24:49,400 --> 01:24:51,280
Speaker 4: Able to do with dropsite then helps us over here

1711
01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:53,680
Speaker 4: and Daniel builds our capacity.

1712
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:56,280
Speaker 5: As we reported about a month ago, Dan Osbourne had

1713
01:24:56,280 --> 01:24:58,720
Speaker 5: the National Republican Senatorial Committee.

1714
01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:01,479
Speaker 6: Led by Mitch McConnell. The time very nervous towards the

1715
01:25:01,560 --> 01:25:01,960
Speaker 6: end of they.

1716
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:04,599
Speaker 4: Always spent millions and millions of dollars calling him Democrat Dan,

1717
01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:06,880
Speaker 4: calling McBurnie brow because they.

1718
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:09,839
Speaker 5: Didn't realize what was happening. They didn't trust the polling

1719
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:12,679
Speaker 5: that was coming out until way too late, when there

1720
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:14,400
Speaker 5: it was, you know, you're getting to a month before

1721
01:25:14,439 --> 01:25:16,439
Speaker 5: the election and there are polls that are really close

1722
01:25:16,479 --> 01:25:18,519
Speaker 5: coming out. They just didn't trust it until that point,

1723
01:25:18,520 --> 01:25:20,599
Speaker 5: and it caught him off guard, which is really cool.

1724
01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:24,960
Speaker 4: And Democrats for their own part, completely botched the entire thing.

1725
01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:26,480
Speaker 1: They didn't help Osborne.

1726
01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:30,200
Speaker 4: National Democrats didn't help Osborne basically at all on his own.

1727
01:25:30,240 --> 01:25:32,599
Speaker 4: And at the very end, you had Chuck Schumer telling

1728
01:25:32,640 --> 01:25:35,800
Speaker 4: people like tweeting like, hey, everybody, go vote for Dan

1729
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:38,040
Speaker 4: Osborne to help Democrats save the Senate.

1730
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:39,200
Speaker 1: And it's like.

1731
01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:44,320
Speaker 4: You're not helping him at all. No, Like, he's not

1732
01:25:44,360 --> 01:25:46,240
Speaker 4: a Democrat. He's never even said he's going to caucus

1733
01:25:46,320 --> 01:25:48,960
Speaker 4: with you. The number one attack on him is that

1734
01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:51,360
Speaker 4: he's a Democrat in disguise. So you're doing nothing to

1735
01:25:51,439 --> 01:25:54,080
Speaker 4: help him, but you're publicly saying that he's going to

1736
01:25:54,120 --> 01:25:57,639
Speaker 4: help you when he comes to Washington, Are you trying

1737
01:25:57,680 --> 01:26:00,280
Speaker 4: to stop him, and it's like, are you actually trying

1738
01:26:00,360 --> 01:26:03,080
Speaker 4: to stop him? Because it because him winning would actually

1739
01:26:03,080 --> 01:26:07,200
Speaker 4: be a threat to the Democratic Party in every rural

1740
01:26:07,200 --> 01:26:11,080
Speaker 4: area because it would show that actually the path to election.

1741
01:26:10,920 --> 01:26:13,800
Speaker 1: Is not through the Democratic Party. He would you did

1742
01:26:13,840 --> 01:26:15,120
Speaker 1: you actually tang him on purpose?

1743
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:16,559
Speaker 6: It's an amazing camp.

1744
01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:18,320
Speaker 4: Because that because those Shumor quotes were used in ads

1745
01:26:18,320 --> 01:26:18,800
Speaker 4: against him.

1746
01:26:18,800 --> 01:26:19,719
Speaker 6: Then yeah, of course.

1747
01:26:19,800 --> 01:26:24,439
Speaker 4: Anyway, So check out this great interview by Jessica Burbank

1748
01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:25,800
Speaker 4: with Dan Osborne.

1749
01:26:26,080 --> 01:26:29,040
Speaker 10: Here you go, we're back again. Did one of the

1750
01:26:29,080 --> 01:26:33,360
Speaker 10: first interviews. Now we're doing the last. Dan Osborne was

1751
01:26:33,400 --> 01:26:39,240
Speaker 10: in a campaign that outperformed every single Democrat that ran

1752
01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:42,559
Speaker 10: in the state that was supposed to go Republican, either

1753
01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:45,639
Speaker 10: narrowly or by a large margin. And out of all

1754
01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:49,519
Speaker 10: of these states, you can compare yourself. You outperformed every

1755
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:52,280
Speaker 10: single one. How'd you do that?

1756
01:26:53,840 --> 01:27:00,840
Speaker 12: Well, that's fascinating. I haven't I haven't dug into numbers yet,

1757
01:27:01,400 --> 01:27:02,599
Speaker 12: Still licking my wounds.

1758
01:27:02,640 --> 01:27:05,680
Speaker 7: I mean I thought, I mean, I really thought I

1759
01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:06,160
Speaker 7: was gonna win.

1760
01:27:07,920 --> 01:27:13,920
Speaker 12: I did that because people are thirsty for a change.

1761
01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:16,280
Speaker 12: You know, at the end of the day, I feel like,

1762
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:19,440
Speaker 12: you know, people ask me, what could you have done differently?

1763
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:22,679
Speaker 12: And I don't think there's anything I could have done differently.

1764
01:27:23,280 --> 01:27:26,120
Speaker 7: I think, at the end of the day, lies one.

1765
01:27:27,320 --> 01:27:30,000
Speaker 12: You know, all the ten million dollars came in against

1766
01:27:30,040 --> 01:27:31,680
Speaker 12: me in the last two weeks, and it was all

1767
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:35,640
Speaker 12: about lies. And you know, people read enough of it.

1768
01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:37,160
Speaker 12: I guess they believed it when they went to the

1769
01:27:37,520 --> 01:27:44,599
Speaker 12: voting booths. So but I did it because also I

1770
01:27:44,640 --> 01:27:48,120
Speaker 12: was just being myself, just a guy who's punched a clock,

1771
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:49,840
Speaker 12: who knows what it's like to put Christmas on a

1772
01:27:49,920 --> 01:27:50,400
Speaker 12: credit card.

1773
01:27:50,479 --> 01:27:52,879
Speaker 7: And I focused on the issues.

1774
01:27:54,320 --> 01:27:57,000
Speaker 12: You know, I would tell people I don't think Republicans

1775
01:27:57,000 --> 01:27:59,320
Speaker 12: and Democrats are enemies here.

1776
01:27:59,040 --> 01:28:00,320
Speaker 7: We're all America.

1777
01:28:00,240 --> 01:28:01,519
Speaker 12: At the end of the day, and let's just talk

1778
01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:04,880
Speaker 12: about issues. Let's talk about what matters to the people

1779
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:07,920
Speaker 12: in the room that I was talking to. So when

1780
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:12,240
Speaker 12: we did that, everybody's head started nodding together, and you know,

1781
01:28:12,560 --> 01:28:14,040
Speaker 12: neighbors became neighbors again.

1782
01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:16,960
Speaker 7: And you know, if nothing.

1783
01:28:16,720 --> 01:28:19,479
Speaker 12: Else I accomplished, I would drive around Nebraska and I

1784
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:21,439
Speaker 12: would see my sign next to a Trump sign, and

1785
01:28:21,439 --> 01:28:23,439
Speaker 12: I would see my sign next to a Harris sign

1786
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:27,160
Speaker 12: in the same neighborhood. So I brought neighbors together and

1787
01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:28,280
Speaker 12: it makes me feel good.

1788
01:28:28,479 --> 01:28:30,559
Speaker 10: Something you said on the campaign trail was along the

1789
01:28:30,600 --> 01:28:33,880
Speaker 10: lines of Congress and people in politics are a lot

1790
01:28:33,920 --> 01:28:38,320
Speaker 10: of millionaires that work for billionaires. How much of your

1791
01:28:38,320 --> 01:28:40,400
Speaker 10: campaign success do you think is people that are just

1792
01:28:40,479 --> 01:28:41,040
Speaker 10: sick of that?

1793
01:28:42,040 --> 01:28:42,840
Speaker 7: I think the.

1794
01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:45,320
Speaker 12: Bulk of it for sure, And I don't think enough

1795
01:28:45,320 --> 01:28:48,400
Speaker 12: people are getting that message. The millionaires that work for

1796
01:28:48,439 --> 01:28:50,360
Speaker 12: billionaires are not going to work for people like me.

1797
01:28:51,439 --> 01:28:53,800
Speaker 12: They're just simply not They're going to take care of themselves.

1798
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:57,760
Speaker 12: I did an event with Sean Fayn and one in

1799
01:28:57,840 --> 01:29:00,880
Speaker 12: Omaha and one and Lincoln. We did rallies together and

1800
01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:04,959
Speaker 12: he tells a story in his speech about a society

1801
01:29:05,000 --> 01:29:08,559
Speaker 12: of mice that they're just like us. They go to work,

1802
01:29:08,720 --> 01:29:10,600
Speaker 12: they send their kids to school, and they vote in

1803
01:29:10,600 --> 01:29:13,679
Speaker 12: elections every four years. But the kicker is they vote

1804
01:29:13,720 --> 01:29:16,200
Speaker 12: for cats. And you know, a different set of cat

1805
01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:19,160
Speaker 12: comes in every four years and tries to tell them

1806
01:29:19,160 --> 01:29:21,759
Speaker 12: that their lives is going to be better. And finally,

1807
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:24,080
Speaker 12: one day, you know, they elect all kinds of different cats.

1808
01:29:24,120 --> 01:29:26,840
Speaker 12: But eventually they wake up and they realize that that

1809
01:29:26,920 --> 01:29:29,679
Speaker 12: we're mice. And the problem is is We're being ruled

1810
01:29:29,680 --> 01:29:32,360
Speaker 12: by cats, and I think that's what we got going

1811
01:29:32,400 --> 01:29:34,680
Speaker 12: on here. But I think more people are starting to

1812
01:29:34,720 --> 01:29:37,800
Speaker 12: wake up to that fact every single day that you know,

1813
01:29:37,880 --> 01:29:40,760
Speaker 12: the millionaire and the billionaire class are not going to

1814
01:29:40,760 --> 01:29:43,400
Speaker 12: be have a worker's agenda. They're going to take care

1815
01:29:43,439 --> 01:29:44,920
Speaker 12: of each other, and the cats are going to take

1816
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:45,599
Speaker 12: care of the cats.

1817
01:29:45,840 --> 01:29:48,560
Speaker 10: Something that's going on right now in the media a

1818
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:52,000
Speaker 10: lot is people trying to figure this out, a lot

1819
01:29:52,000 --> 01:29:54,840
Speaker 10: of Democrats trying to figure out what we did wrong,

1820
01:29:55,400 --> 01:29:58,600
Speaker 10: Why aren't people voting with us? And you hear a

1821
01:29:58,600 --> 01:30:02,240
Speaker 10: lot of different reasons for it. But the phrase economic

1822
01:30:02,320 --> 01:30:05,080
Speaker 10: populism is starting to come up as a part of

1823
01:30:05,080 --> 01:30:10,080
Speaker 10: that conversation. What do those words mean to you? Economic populism, they.

1824
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:13,560
Speaker 12: Don't mean anything to me. I'm not a political analyst

1825
01:30:14,040 --> 01:30:17,160
Speaker 12: or anything like that. I'm you know, I'm going back

1826
01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:19,680
Speaker 12: to work and right now my priorities taking care of

1827
01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:22,639
Speaker 12: my family and you know, my debt collectors. They don't

1828
01:30:23,040 --> 01:30:25,919
Speaker 12: care that I ran the closest Senate race in the country.

1829
01:30:26,600 --> 01:30:30,040
Speaker 7: They need their money, so I'm back to work. But

1830
01:30:31,280 --> 01:30:35,240
Speaker 7: economic populism, I don't know what that means.

1831
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:39,799
Speaker 12: All I know is I held almost two hundred public events,

1832
01:30:40,200 --> 01:30:43,160
Speaker 12: and we focused on issues and we just talked about

1833
01:30:43,160 --> 01:30:49,360
Speaker 12: what mattered to people who Every policy and issue that

1834
01:30:49,479 --> 01:30:52,360
Speaker 12: I formed an opinion on or drafted even a policy

1835
01:30:52,360 --> 01:30:54,720
Speaker 12: on was based off of those people that I talked

1836
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:57,320
Speaker 12: to every day, not based off of a party boss

1837
01:30:57,400 --> 01:31:00,120
Speaker 12: telling me what issues I should think in a certain way.

1838
01:31:01,640 --> 01:31:03,720
Speaker 12: So I think that was part of the success, was

1839
01:31:03,760 --> 01:31:06,280
Speaker 12: just listening to people and what it is that they need.

1840
01:31:06,560 --> 01:31:07,360
Speaker 7: It's just listening.

1841
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:11,840
Speaker 10: You were in your campaign differently than I've seen a

1842
01:31:11,840 --> 01:31:15,960
Speaker 10: campaign run. I went to one of your events where

1843
01:31:17,280 --> 01:31:20,080
Speaker 10: it turned into a town hall right. People were bringing

1844
01:31:20,120 --> 01:31:23,040
Speaker 10: stuff up, you were responding to it. How much did

1845
01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:27,320
Speaker 10: your campaign change for your speeches even change from beginning

1846
01:31:27,400 --> 01:31:29,760
Speaker 10: to end based on what people said to you.

1847
01:31:30,680 --> 01:31:34,040
Speaker 12: Yeah, I would say a lot of it changed, you know.

1848
01:31:34,439 --> 01:31:39,720
Speaker 12: For example, student debt relief, student loan relief. When I

1849
01:31:39,760 --> 01:31:42,439
Speaker 12: first heard of that, I was like, oh no, I

1850
01:31:42,439 --> 01:31:47,400
Speaker 12: don't like that, you know, because I worked, I paid

1851
01:31:47,479 --> 01:31:49,400
Speaker 12: my own way through life, and I think people should

1852
01:31:49,400 --> 01:31:52,400
Speaker 12: do the same for the most part. But I was

1853
01:31:52,520 --> 01:31:55,800
Speaker 12: speaking to a teacher and she was a teacher for

1854
01:31:55,880 --> 01:32:00,800
Speaker 12: over ten years, and she said that she didn't she

1855
01:32:00,840 --> 01:32:02,880
Speaker 12: didn't qualify for it because she hadn't been in the

1856
01:32:03,040 --> 01:32:05,880
Speaker 12: business long enough of teaching. So it's not like they

1857
01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:08,160
Speaker 12: just I just figured they'd start a to z and

1858
01:32:08,200 --> 01:32:09,240
Speaker 12: start handing out money.

1859
01:32:09,400 --> 01:32:10,200
Speaker 7: It's not like that.

1860
01:32:11,000 --> 01:32:14,200
Speaker 12: What it really is like is is nurses and teachers

1861
01:32:14,439 --> 01:32:16,720
Speaker 12: and really important fields like that that are taking care

1862
01:32:16,720 --> 01:32:20,959
Speaker 12: of us and taking care of our kids.

1863
01:32:19,800 --> 01:32:21,599
Speaker 7: You know, like farming, teaching, and nursing.

1864
01:32:21,680 --> 01:32:23,280
Speaker 12: We have to take care of those people because if

1865
01:32:23,280 --> 01:32:24,920
Speaker 12: we don't have those people, I don't have to.

1866
01:32:24,920 --> 01:32:26,240
Speaker 7: Tell you what happens next.

1867
01:32:27,080 --> 01:32:31,880
Speaker 12: So it was really about learning what these things actually meant.

1868
01:32:31,960 --> 01:32:34,000
Speaker 7: And I changed my mind on that because I was like.

1869
01:32:34,040 --> 01:32:37,360
Speaker 12: Yeah, if you've been teaching for ten years or over

1870
01:32:37,439 --> 01:32:40,320
Speaker 12: ten years, and you still have fifty thousand dollars in

1871
01:32:40,360 --> 01:32:42,519
Speaker 12: debt because in order to make more money teaching, you

1872
01:32:42,600 --> 01:32:43,960
Speaker 12: have to go back to school, so you have to

1873
01:32:43,960 --> 01:32:47,000
Speaker 12: go further in debt. And so these professions are so

1874
01:32:47,040 --> 01:32:48,800
Speaker 12: important we got to take care of them. And so

1875
01:32:48,960 --> 01:32:50,880
Speaker 12: I definitely was able to change my mind on a

1876
01:32:50,880 --> 01:32:55,000
Speaker 12: few things like that, And my speech didn't really change

1877
01:32:55,000 --> 01:32:56,839
Speaker 12: other than I suppose things got added.

1878
01:32:57,080 --> 01:32:59,439
Speaker 7: So by the time I was finished, my speech was

1879
01:32:59,439 --> 01:33:00,120
Speaker 7: probably too long.

1880
01:33:02,160 --> 01:33:06,320
Speaker 10: And another thing, and another get in here. Yeah, I

1881
01:33:06,360 --> 01:33:08,519
Speaker 10: think there's not a lot of listening going on now.

1882
01:33:10,040 --> 01:33:12,280
Speaker 7: I mean, maybe that's it, listening populism.

1883
01:33:12,520 --> 01:33:13,760
Speaker 10: Listening populism.

1884
01:33:14,000 --> 01:33:16,599
Speaker 7: They should try it, because we just coined it right here,

1885
01:33:16,680 --> 01:33:17,080
Speaker 7: right now.

1886
01:33:17,320 --> 01:33:20,559
Speaker 10: I think it's good. The people you hear from are,

1887
01:33:20,600 --> 01:33:22,800
Speaker 10: like you said, the people who run the country. They

1888
01:33:22,880 --> 01:33:25,839
Speaker 10: keep it moving, and for some reason, in our politics

1889
01:33:25,880 --> 01:33:29,439
Speaker 10: and in our economy, they are not treated as the

1890
01:33:29,479 --> 01:33:35,200
Speaker 10: most important members. Much less than that, they're treated as

1891
01:33:35,280 --> 01:33:39,040
Speaker 10: almost expendable in many ways. And what I've heard is

1892
01:33:39,520 --> 01:33:43,160
Speaker 10: when people talk about economic populism is okay. So you're

1893
01:33:43,200 --> 01:33:46,880
Speaker 10: saying the Democrats need to focus on welfare, on social security,

1894
01:33:47,360 --> 01:33:53,120
Speaker 10: on entitlements, and I'm curious what you make of that.

1895
01:33:53,479 --> 01:33:57,000
Speaker 10: And I will say I think a lot of people

1896
01:33:57,000 --> 01:34:01,000
Speaker 10: in the labor movement if these democrats were listening, when

1897
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:05,040
Speaker 10: they talk about reducing economic inequality, they talk about earning

1898
01:34:05,080 --> 01:34:09,000
Speaker 10: better wages, earning what you've already worked for. We're already

1899
01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:12,679
Speaker 10: paid way less than we put in as working people.

1900
01:34:12,960 --> 01:34:16,200
Speaker 10: And so that's very different from a sort of structure

1901
01:34:16,240 --> 01:34:18,200
Speaker 10: where the money goes to the company, it's taxed by

1902
01:34:18,240 --> 01:34:20,479
Speaker 10: the government, and then we get to decide how it's

1903
01:34:20,479 --> 01:34:22,679
Speaker 10: spent and how it gets to you. It's still robbing

1904
01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:25,680
Speaker 10: working people of their agency in some way. What do

1905
01:34:25,720 --> 01:34:28,760
Speaker 10: you make of this conversation about, oh, economic populism, So

1906
01:34:28,960 --> 01:34:31,560
Speaker 10: if Democrats want to win, they need to do more welfare.

1907
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:36,719
Speaker 12: No, the vast majority, well, the vast majority of people

1908
01:34:36,720 --> 01:34:39,160
Speaker 12: that I've talked to, they're not looking for handouts.

1909
01:34:39,600 --> 01:34:41,960
Speaker 7: I'm not looking for a handout. People just want to know.

1910
01:34:42,000 --> 01:34:45,479
Speaker 12: Plan and simple simply says simple as I could put it.

1911
01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:47,240
Speaker 12: They just want to know, if they work hard in

1912
01:34:47,240 --> 01:34:50,320
Speaker 12: this country, that their paycheck matters, that they're not going

1913
01:34:50,360 --> 01:34:52,320
Speaker 12: to get taxed to death, and that they're going to

1914
01:34:52,320 --> 01:34:54,879
Speaker 12: be able to afford a house, be able to afford groceries,

1915
01:34:54,920 --> 01:34:57,000
Speaker 12: be able to pay their bills, and have a car

1916
01:34:57,160 --> 01:35:02,200
Speaker 12: to set on a side all year for Christmas and

1917
01:35:02,320 --> 01:35:03,120
Speaker 12: some for college.

1918
01:35:03,360 --> 01:35:03,800
Speaker 7: That's it.

1919
01:35:05,439 --> 01:35:07,439
Speaker 12: That's what they That's what they want to know, and

1920
01:35:08,040 --> 01:35:11,559
Speaker 12: what they're seeing is too big a government and too

1921
01:35:11,560 --> 01:35:15,000
Speaker 12: many handouts. Do handouts need to be had, Yes, of

1922
01:35:15,040 --> 01:35:17,120
Speaker 12: course there's people that need it that can't work right.

1923
01:35:17,120 --> 01:35:18,720
Speaker 7: Those are the folks that we got to take care of.

1924
01:35:19,360 --> 01:35:21,680
Speaker 12: Uh and and most most people that I came in

1925
01:35:21,720 --> 01:35:26,040
Speaker 12: contact with are fine with that, but I think they

1926
01:35:26,080 --> 01:35:27,599
Speaker 12: just feel like it's just gotten too far.

1927
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:30,799
Speaker 7: But most people aren't looking for a handout.

1928
01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:32,800
Speaker 12: Most people just want to know that their paycheck is

1929
01:35:32,840 --> 01:35:33,639
Speaker 12: going to be protected.

1930
01:35:34,439 --> 01:35:37,840
Speaker 7: Paycheck populismycheck pul coined another one.

1931
01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:40,240
Speaker 10: Yeah, I like turning out on us.

1932
01:35:40,320 --> 01:35:43,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, their motion detected, So get up and run around.

1933
01:35:43,720 --> 01:35:46,920
Speaker 10: Yeah, scrappy. A shout out to Grunwald for housing us.

1934
01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:47,320
Speaker 10: Thank you.

1935
01:35:48,160 --> 01:35:48,960
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1936
01:35:49,000 --> 01:35:52,720
Speaker 10: So I sent you an op ed, like I don't know,

1937
01:35:52,760 --> 01:35:56,320
Speaker 10: a couple of days ago. I don't think I mentioned,

1938
01:35:56,400 --> 01:35:58,840
Speaker 10: but this is where I first saw it. Did you

1939
01:35:58,880 --> 01:36:00,479
Speaker 10: know Bernie Sanders tweet that out?

1940
01:36:02,800 --> 01:36:02,880
Speaker 7: No?

1941
01:36:04,000 --> 01:36:08,040
Speaker 10: Yeah, So the op ed was about your campaign, what

1942
01:36:08,200 --> 01:36:12,559
Speaker 10: you contributed, the need to center working class people, working

1943
01:36:12,600 --> 01:36:15,240
Speaker 10: class voices, and working class candidates.

1944
01:36:16,720 --> 01:36:21,840
Speaker 7: Interesting. I spent a tremendous amount of time. Oh my

1945
01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:27,160
Speaker 7: family looks good, a tremendous amount of time. You know.

1946
01:36:27,240 --> 01:36:33,200
Speaker 12: They they called me Bernie Brow, democrat in sheep's clothing.

1947
01:36:34,000 --> 01:36:34,960
Speaker 7: What else? I don't know?

1948
01:36:35,240 --> 01:36:39,840
Speaker 12: Democrat Dan, you know, all the all the name calling, uh, you.

1949
01:36:39,800 --> 01:36:42,880
Speaker 7: Know, because again lies to try to win an election.

1950
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:46,360
Speaker 12: I've I've been a registered independent from the time I

1951
01:36:46,360 --> 01:36:47,640
Speaker 12: could vote I've.

1952
01:36:47,400 --> 01:36:48,799
Speaker 7: Never really understood why.

1953
01:36:49,640 --> 01:36:52,680
Speaker 12: How you know to join a party you have to

1954
01:36:52,720 --> 01:36:55,320
Speaker 12: be on this side of every issue and reject all

1955
01:36:55,360 --> 01:36:58,000
Speaker 12: of this and I don't really get that.

1956
01:36:58,520 --> 01:37:01,639
Speaker 7: So uh but no, I did not know about this.

1957
01:37:02,479 --> 01:37:03,320
Speaker 7: That's interesting.

1958
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:08,880
Speaker 10: Yeah, he also wrote this email that a lot of

1959
01:37:08,960 --> 01:37:13,080
Speaker 10: people are speculating what it could possibly mean. I'll give

1960
01:37:13,080 --> 01:37:15,920
Speaker 10: you a copy of it. But a lot of people

1961
01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:18,519
Speaker 10: think that I don't know. He's going in the direction

1962
01:37:18,600 --> 01:37:21,240
Speaker 10: of starting his own party, starting his own thing. It's

1963
01:37:21,240 --> 01:37:25,320
Speaker 10: a lot about how the Democratic Party has failed working

1964
01:37:25,360 --> 01:37:26,479
Speaker 10: people in some ways.

1965
01:37:27,200 --> 01:37:32,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's came across my ex and this happened around.

1966
01:37:31,840 --> 01:37:34,519
Speaker 10: The same time he posted this tweet of an op

1967
01:37:34,640 --> 01:37:38,719
Speaker 10: ed about your campaign. So in a path forward after

1968
01:37:38,800 --> 01:37:43,160
Speaker 10: this election, it seems like people are looking to you

1969
01:37:43,960 --> 01:37:47,960
Speaker 10: as a roadmap what to do next. How does it

1970
01:37:48,000 --> 01:37:49,200
Speaker 10: feel to be in that position?

1971
01:37:50,160 --> 01:37:55,360
Speaker 13: Well, you know, it feels good because it's what I believe,

1972
01:37:55,720 --> 01:38:00,240
Speaker 13: it's what I stand for, and you know, I'm to

1973
01:38:00,280 --> 01:38:00,720
Speaker 13: work now.

1974
01:38:01,040 --> 01:38:05,400
Speaker 12: I started a pack fund Working Class Heroes dot fund.

1975
01:38:07,000 --> 01:38:10,280
Speaker 12: People can go there and they can actually nominate candidates

1976
01:38:10,280 --> 01:38:13,960
Speaker 12: who they think might fit the bill, that want to

1977
01:38:14,000 --> 01:38:16,080
Speaker 12: run in their perspective areas and we can help them.

1978
01:38:16,479 --> 01:38:17,320
Speaker 7: That's what I want to do.

1979
01:38:17,360 --> 01:38:20,240
Speaker 12: I want to take this to a national level what

1980
01:38:20,280 --> 01:38:25,160
Speaker 12: we did here in Nebraska, because again, as simply as

1981
01:38:25,200 --> 01:38:28,240
Speaker 12: I can put it, Congress needs to look like us, right.

1982
01:38:28,280 --> 01:38:31,160
Speaker 7: It needs to look like this building right here.

1983
01:38:31,520 --> 01:38:34,479
Speaker 12: It has enough business execs and lawyers, which we need

1984
01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:37,360
Speaker 12: those two, but we need people who are going to

1985
01:38:37,360 --> 01:38:42,840
Speaker 12: approach issues based off of their life experiences on working

1986
01:38:42,920 --> 01:38:45,920
Speaker 12: sixty to seventy to eighty hours a week, punching a clock.

1987
01:38:47,000 --> 01:38:49,799
Speaker 7: I'm not saying that's a qualifier. It certainly isn't.

1988
01:38:50,160 --> 01:38:54,200
Speaker 12: But we have to have those people that are qualified

1989
01:38:54,240 --> 01:38:56,280
Speaker 12: to do that, that are going to be able to

1990
01:38:57,040 --> 01:39:01,479
Speaker 12: Now I'm sounding ridiculous, but you're not qualified, you know

1991
01:39:01,520 --> 01:39:03,760
Speaker 12: what I mean though, Like, yeah, just because you're a

1992
01:39:03,760 --> 01:39:07,160
Speaker 12: working person doesn't mean you're qualified to be a leader, certainly,

1993
01:39:08,280 --> 01:39:10,400
Speaker 12: But there are people that can do it that we

1994
01:39:10,479 --> 01:39:13,280
Speaker 12: need to do it, that will have the worker agenda.

1995
01:39:13,680 --> 01:39:17,920
Speaker 12: So when they approach social Security, they'll approach social Security

1996
01:39:18,000 --> 01:39:20,360
Speaker 12: like they need it someday because they do.

1997
01:39:21,040 --> 01:39:21,240
Speaker 7: Right.

1998
01:39:21,439 --> 01:39:26,200
Speaker 12: That's the difference I think between somebody who comes from

1999
01:39:26,200 --> 01:39:29,559
Speaker 12: a background like mine and a background owning their own

2000
01:39:29,640 --> 01:39:31,120
Speaker 12: law firm in New York City.

2001
01:39:31,960 --> 01:39:35,519
Speaker 10: Let's talk about this for a second, because I know

2002
01:39:35,720 --> 01:39:38,600
Speaker 10: so many people who have never set foot on a

2003
01:39:38,640 --> 01:39:42,519
Speaker 10: college campus that are a lot smarter than people who have.

2004
01:39:43,880 --> 01:39:47,880
Speaker 10: And I think there seems to be an expectation, or

2005
01:39:48,520 --> 01:39:51,160
Speaker 10: maybe it's a belief that has been pushed on us,

2006
01:39:51,200 --> 01:39:53,479
Speaker 10: that to be a member of Congress you have to

2007
01:39:53,640 --> 01:39:57,400
Speaker 10: be a lawyer, be a policy expert, be a businessman.

2008
01:39:59,280 --> 01:40:01,360
Speaker 10: What would you say people who still think.

2009
01:40:01,240 --> 01:40:04,040
Speaker 12: That one, Oh, I would say they're wrong, because I

2010
01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:06,840
Speaker 12: would agree with some of the smartest and I know

2011
01:40:06,880 --> 01:40:09,599
Speaker 12: plenty of people with fancy degrees.

2012
01:40:09,800 --> 01:40:11,320
Speaker 7: I've met a lot of them recently.

2013
01:40:12,200 --> 01:40:14,720
Speaker 12: And some of the smartest people I know are in

2014
01:40:14,760 --> 01:40:20,720
Speaker 12: the trades or even auto mechanics. They just chose a

2015
01:40:20,720 --> 01:40:24,439
Speaker 12: different path in their life. And it seems to be

2016
01:40:25,560 --> 01:40:28,080
Speaker 12: again the millionaires working for billionaires. It seems to be

2017
01:40:28,120 --> 01:40:34,160
Speaker 12: this ruling class agenda. It seems to be this elitist mentality,

2018
01:40:34,200 --> 01:40:37,200
Speaker 12: if you will, for example, you know you mentioned in

2019
01:40:37,400 --> 01:40:41,240
Speaker 12: the very first video, less than two percent of our

2020
01:40:41,280 --> 01:40:43,280
Speaker 12: elected officials in the House and Senate come from the

2021
01:40:43,280 --> 01:40:48,240
Speaker 12: working class, and actually veterans, less than two percent of

2022
01:40:48,320 --> 01:40:52,200
Speaker 12: veterans who run actually come from the enlisted ranks.

2023
01:40:52,720 --> 01:40:54,840
Speaker 7: It's all officers.

2024
01:40:55,000 --> 01:40:58,320
Speaker 12: So there does seem to be this mentality in order

2025
01:40:58,320 --> 01:41:00,519
Speaker 12: to be in a leadership role you have to have

2026
01:41:00,600 --> 01:41:03,760
Speaker 12: gone to a fancy school or been an officer at

2027
01:41:03,800 --> 01:41:05,840
Speaker 12: West Point and things like that.

2028
01:41:05,960 --> 01:41:09,479
Speaker 7: So but like for me, I just took a different

2029
01:41:09,479 --> 01:41:10,160
Speaker 7: path in my life.

2030
01:41:10,240 --> 01:41:12,240
Speaker 12: You know, my wife got pregnant. I had to go

2031
01:41:12,280 --> 01:41:14,240
Speaker 12: get a job, so I dropped out of school. My

2032
01:41:14,320 --> 01:41:17,040
Speaker 12: degree wouldn't have gotten me. I don't believe anywhere anyway.

2033
01:41:17,520 --> 01:41:20,800
Speaker 12: I like working with my hands, So that's how I

2034
01:41:20,880 --> 01:41:22,040
Speaker 12: ended up here right now.

2035
01:41:22,080 --> 01:41:24,120
Speaker 7: But you know, that's our path that we choose.

2036
01:41:24,760 --> 01:41:28,400
Speaker 10: It's not so much that we're saying working people are

2037
01:41:28,520 --> 01:41:33,000
Speaker 10: valued above people who are lawyers, right, it's maybe we

2038
01:41:33,040 --> 01:41:36,200
Speaker 10: should see everyone as equals, and the fact that we

2039
01:41:36,280 --> 01:41:40,040
Speaker 10: have to fight for that is interesting. Do you feel

2040
01:41:40,040 --> 01:41:44,200
Speaker 10: like that's changing that people are after the pandemic, maybe

2041
01:41:44,240 --> 01:41:46,879
Speaker 10: realizing essential workers really are important and essential?

2042
01:41:46,960 --> 01:41:47,480
Speaker 7: Yeah?

2043
01:41:47,600 --> 01:41:50,719
Speaker 12: Yeah, And you know I kind of bag on lawyers

2044
01:41:50,760 --> 01:41:52,639
Speaker 12: too often. I feel like I pick on them too much.

2045
01:41:52,640 --> 01:41:55,320
Speaker 12: So if you're a lawyer out there, I'm sorry, because

2046
01:41:55,320 --> 01:41:56,840
Speaker 12: there are obviously I know a lot of very good

2047
01:41:56,840 --> 01:41:58,400
Speaker 12: people that are lawyers.

2048
01:41:58,240 --> 01:42:01,120
Speaker 7: And you know, and they make good money.

2049
01:42:01,200 --> 01:42:04,120
Speaker 12: That's that's great, you know, that's that's capitalism and its finest.

2050
01:42:04,160 --> 01:42:06,599
Speaker 12: And I think again, everybody wants to know that, they

2051
01:42:06,640 --> 01:42:09,519
Speaker 12: want to have the opportunity to get ahead in this country,

2052
01:42:09,560 --> 01:42:11,240
Speaker 12: and I feel like that's dwindling away. I think the

2053
01:42:11,439 --> 01:42:14,080
Speaker 12: or at least the belief that that people can get ahead,

2054
01:42:14,880 --> 01:42:18,720
Speaker 12: you know, for some folks, is dwindling away because of

2055
01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:22,599
Speaker 12: you know, the cost of housing and groceries and everything else.

2056
01:42:22,600 --> 01:42:24,880
Speaker 12: It's becoming more and more difficult every day to just

2057
01:42:24,920 --> 01:42:28,000
Speaker 12: stay even, let alone get ahead. But yeah, again, lawyers,

2058
01:42:28,040 --> 01:42:31,360
Speaker 12: business execs, folks like that have their place in government.

2059
01:42:31,479 --> 01:42:35,240
Speaker 12: But again, Congress needs to reflect its people, and right

2060
01:42:35,240 --> 01:42:36,320
Speaker 12: now it just simply doesn't.

2061
01:42:37,120 --> 01:42:40,559
Speaker 10: Do you feel like the media understood this message that

2062
01:42:40,720 --> 01:42:42,160
Speaker 10: was so central in your campaign?

2063
01:42:43,560 --> 01:42:47,479
Speaker 12: Yeah, I don't know the media in general. I think

2064
01:42:51,000 --> 01:42:53,559
Speaker 12: I think people did understand that. I mean, you know,

2065
01:42:53,600 --> 01:42:55,599
Speaker 12: we saw one of the biggest red waves in history,

2066
01:42:55,640 --> 01:42:59,640
Speaker 12: and I believe they used what populace what do you

2067
01:42:59,720 --> 01:43:06,000
Speaker 12: call that? Economic economic populism? Yeah, as their root, their

2068
01:43:06,040 --> 01:43:07,040
Speaker 12: base of their campaign.

2069
01:43:07,080 --> 01:43:10,320
Speaker 10: If I'm not mistaken, Yeah, the Trump campaign.

2070
01:43:09,920 --> 01:43:11,080
Speaker 7: Did ye See?

2071
01:43:11,080 --> 01:43:16,679
Speaker 12: The difference is is he never you know, did anything

2072
01:43:16,760 --> 01:43:17,040
Speaker 12: like this.

2073
01:43:17,160 --> 01:43:17,519
Speaker 7: He didn't.

2074
01:43:17,520 --> 01:43:20,400
Speaker 12: He didn't put in a sixteen hour day outside or

2075
01:43:20,479 --> 01:43:23,040
Speaker 12: with his you know, coming home with knees and backs

2076
01:43:23,040 --> 01:43:29,400
Speaker 12: and hips and elbows and wrists hurting. So I don't

2077
01:43:29,439 --> 01:43:32,280
Speaker 12: really understand that why white people buy that hook line

2078
01:43:32,280 --> 01:43:35,120
Speaker 12: and sinker from somebody who's never really done.

2079
01:43:34,960 --> 01:43:38,800
Speaker 10: It, and that experience just being a working person in America,

2080
01:43:38,840 --> 01:43:43,640
Speaker 10: putting them time in, you feel gives you experience to

2081
01:43:43,800 --> 01:43:47,920
Speaker 10: be an economic populist or a listening populist.

2082
01:43:47,640 --> 01:43:50,599
Speaker 12: Because if I've walked the walk, you know, that's that's

2083
01:43:50,600 --> 01:43:54,759
Speaker 12: the big difference. I nobody can understand anything like somebody

2084
01:43:54,800 --> 01:43:55,880
Speaker 12: who's been there and done that.

2085
01:43:56,600 --> 01:43:57,479
Speaker 7: You know, you could read.

2086
01:43:57,280 --> 01:44:01,080
Speaker 12: About it in books, but to actually experience it day

2087
01:44:01,080 --> 01:44:04,000
Speaker 12: in and day out for twenty years, it's a big difference.

2088
01:44:05,120 --> 01:44:07,520
Speaker 10: And do you feel like the coverage of your campaign

2089
01:44:08,160 --> 01:44:08,880
Speaker 10: understood that?

2090
01:44:09,720 --> 01:44:11,880
Speaker 7: Yeah? I would say so, because.

2091
01:44:11,640 --> 01:44:15,200
Speaker 10: I've heard when folks talk about the outcome of this election,

2092
01:44:15,320 --> 01:44:17,360
Speaker 10: they talk about you. They talk about how you are

2093
01:44:17,360 --> 01:44:22,760
Speaker 10: a leader with Kellogg's and as someone who grew up

2094
01:44:22,800 --> 01:44:26,200
Speaker 10: working class. I hear it and it almost sounds like, well,

2095
01:44:26,200 --> 01:44:30,160
Speaker 10: this is something that can be replicated with anyone if

2096
01:44:30,160 --> 01:44:32,439
Speaker 10: we just have this message. But is there something to

2097
01:44:32,520 --> 01:44:35,280
Speaker 10: having the experience of growing up working class?

2098
01:44:35,560 --> 01:44:39,520
Speaker 12: Yeah, definitely growing up you know, my dad was a railroader,

2099
01:44:41,080 --> 01:44:45,639
Speaker 12: and you know, we grew up very modest, i'd say comfortable.

2100
01:44:45,680 --> 01:44:47,840
Speaker 12: I never I never, you know, felt like I went

2101
01:44:47,920 --> 01:44:50,559
Speaker 12: hungry as a kid or anything like that. Definitely didn't

2102
01:44:50,560 --> 01:44:54,519
Speaker 12: grow up poor, but modest for sure. And then you know,

2103
01:44:55,479 --> 01:45:00,679
Speaker 12: walking the walk myself, you know people somebody Sometimes people

2104
01:45:00,720 --> 01:45:03,679
Speaker 12: ask me the question, I'll say, what do you want

2105
01:45:03,680 --> 01:45:05,799
Speaker 12: people to know about you that they don't know already?

2106
01:45:06,240 --> 01:45:07,760
Speaker 12: And I would say it was, Well, people know me

2107
01:45:08,200 --> 01:45:12,840
Speaker 12: for the strike at Kellogg's originally and my fight against corporations.

2108
01:45:13,320 --> 01:45:16,680
Speaker 12: But what they don't know is for twenty years I

2109
01:45:16,760 --> 01:45:20,320
Speaker 12: worked daying near seven days a week, three hundred fifty

2110
01:45:20,360 --> 01:45:24,040
Speaker 12: some days a year, and I worked hard. You know,

2111
01:45:24,320 --> 01:45:26,160
Speaker 12: when a line as a mechanic, when a line was

2112
01:45:26,200 --> 01:45:29,200
Speaker 12: down at my plant, it cost a company one hundred

2113
01:45:29,200 --> 01:45:31,400
Speaker 12: thousand dollars an hour when that line was down. So

2114
01:45:31,479 --> 01:45:33,479
Speaker 12: I went out there and I got really good at

2115
01:45:33,479 --> 01:45:35,920
Speaker 12: my job, and I would fix it and I took

2116
01:45:35,960 --> 01:45:38,719
Speaker 12: pride in what I did. And when the company asked

2117
01:45:38,760 --> 01:45:41,840
Speaker 12: for volunteers for grassroots committees to try to, you know,

2118
01:45:41,880 --> 01:45:44,160
Speaker 12: make the plant better and make the company better. I

2119
01:45:44,240 --> 01:45:46,639
Speaker 12: volunteered for everyone because I knew if they did good,

2120
01:45:46,680 --> 01:45:47,200
Speaker 12: I did good.

2121
01:45:47,840 --> 01:45:49,800
Speaker 7: So that's what people don't know about me.

2122
01:45:49,840 --> 01:45:52,360
Speaker 12: And that's that's what it means when I say walking

2123
01:45:52,400 --> 01:45:53,559
Speaker 12: the walk, I've lived it.

2124
01:45:53,640 --> 01:45:55,760
Speaker 7: I've done it, and I understand it.

2125
01:45:55,760 --> 01:45:58,880
Speaker 12: At it at a deeper level, more so than somebody.

2126
01:45:58,520 --> 01:46:00,840
Speaker 7: Born with a silver spoon could possibly.

2127
01:46:00,479 --> 01:46:03,360
Speaker 10: Ever to work for a living means something.

2128
01:46:03,080 --> 01:46:06,559
Speaker 7: In America, It does it should do you think.

2129
01:46:06,439 --> 01:46:09,240
Speaker 10: That's a part of why Congress has not done a

2130
01:46:09,280 --> 01:46:11,320
Speaker 10: good job addressing economic inequality.

2131
01:46:11,400 --> 01:46:15,080
Speaker 12: Absolutely, Yeah, because they simply can't understand it. They're inoculated

2132
01:46:15,080 --> 01:46:18,320
Speaker 12: from the very laws that they enact because it doesn't

2133
01:46:18,360 --> 01:46:18,880
Speaker 12: affect them.

2134
01:46:19,560 --> 01:46:22,040
Speaker 10: Do you see some of these folks who are voting

2135
01:46:22,080 --> 01:46:24,960
Speaker 10: for Trump as just being upset about that and seeing

2136
01:46:25,000 --> 01:46:25,799
Speaker 10: him as an outsider.

2137
01:46:26,000 --> 01:46:28,599
Speaker 7: There's people, Yeah, there's people again.

2138
01:46:28,680 --> 01:46:31,559
Speaker 12: They they just want to go to work and provide

2139
01:46:31,560 --> 01:46:35,280
Speaker 12: for their family. Most people get their politics from their

2140
01:46:35,360 --> 01:46:37,679
Speaker 12: commute to and from work and they don't pay attention

2141
01:46:37,720 --> 01:46:39,920
Speaker 12: to it the rest of the time. And you know,

2142
01:46:40,360 --> 01:46:42,720
Speaker 12: during the election cycle, we get the mailers and we

2143
01:46:42,800 --> 01:46:45,679
Speaker 12: get the commercials, and that's for a lot of people.

2144
01:46:47,680 --> 01:46:53,000
Speaker 12: You know that that type of voter who isn't super

2145
01:46:53,040 --> 01:46:56,400
Speaker 12: plugged in and does a lot of research, that's how

2146
01:46:56,400 --> 01:46:58,720
Speaker 12: they get their information. And I think that's how I

2147
01:46:58,800 --> 01:47:01,479
Speaker 12: lost was they were just I guess you'd call it

2148
01:47:01,520 --> 01:47:02,679
Speaker 12: an uninformed voter.

2149
01:47:07,720 --> 01:47:10,479
Speaker 10: Something that certainly hasn't changed after this election is the

2150
01:47:10,520 --> 01:47:14,959
Speaker 10: way I've noticed the media, especially liberals, talk about Trump voters.

2151
01:47:15,960 --> 01:47:18,200
Speaker 10: They say a lot about Trump, they criticize what he says.

2152
01:47:18,240 --> 01:47:20,439
Speaker 10: That's good and fine, but I think a lot of

2153
01:47:20,479 --> 01:47:26,000
Speaker 10: assessments have just been tacked on to his base, and

2154
01:47:26,680 --> 01:47:30,840
Speaker 10: maybe uninformed voters, like you said, are working people who

2155
01:47:31,120 --> 01:47:35,480
Speaker 10: can't possibly have the time to understand every single politician

2156
01:47:35,560 --> 01:47:37,000
Speaker 10: statements and policies.

2157
01:47:37,520 --> 01:47:39,320
Speaker 7: Sure, how do you.

2158
01:47:39,360 --> 01:47:43,720
Speaker 10: See this sort of information asymmetry of what people know

2159
01:47:43,800 --> 01:47:47,600
Speaker 10: and what they're expected to know contributing to people's feelings

2160
01:47:47,640 --> 01:47:49,920
Speaker 10: of you're an elitist and you're looking down on me.

2161
01:47:51,160 --> 01:47:53,760
Speaker 10: Do you see that as shaping our politics that you

2162
01:47:53,800 --> 01:47:56,240
Speaker 10: notice it on the campaign trail with people you talk to.

2163
01:47:57,720 --> 01:48:01,880
Speaker 12: Yeah, you know a lot of the people that were

2164
01:48:02,479 --> 01:48:08,599
Speaker 12: conservative minded, Again, one of their biggest problems was they

2165
01:48:08,640 --> 01:48:12,320
Speaker 12: were getting talked down to by Democrats, and then you

2166
01:48:12,360 --> 01:48:16,960
Speaker 12: would talk to somebody who leaned progressive and they would

2167
01:48:17,000 --> 01:48:17,599
Speaker 12: feel like.

2168
01:48:19,080 --> 01:48:21,080
Speaker 7: They got lied to by the Republicans.

2169
01:48:21,280 --> 01:48:23,840
Speaker 12: You know, we live in an age where there's so

2170
01:48:23,960 --> 01:48:28,200
Speaker 12: much information. It is so difficult to decipher all of

2171
01:48:28,240 --> 01:48:30,719
Speaker 12: the information we get. Like, I feel sorry for my kids,

2172
01:48:31,040 --> 01:48:33,720
Speaker 12: like my sixteen year old daughter, and you know, the

2173
01:48:33,840 --> 01:48:39,920
Speaker 12: constant bombardment of information that they receive on a daily basis.

2174
01:48:39,920 --> 01:48:43,240
Speaker 12: I don't think the human mind is equipped to deal

2175
01:48:43,320 --> 01:48:44,320
Speaker 12: with that right now.

2176
01:48:44,320 --> 01:48:45,719
Speaker 7: We haven't evolved fast enough.

2177
01:48:46,400 --> 01:48:51,160
Speaker 12: And so as a consumer of information, how do we

2178
01:48:51,800 --> 01:48:56,960
Speaker 12: find the truth in all of it? For example, I

2179
01:48:57,120 --> 01:48:59,719
Speaker 12: was on the road, I think I was in Norfolk, Nebraska,

2180
01:48:59,760 --> 01:49:03,679
Speaker 12: camp painting when Trump got convicted at thirty nine felonies,

2181
01:49:03,760 --> 01:49:05,640
Speaker 12: and I crossed the time zone the night before, so

2182
01:49:05,680 --> 01:49:08,840
Speaker 12: I didn't realize I had another hour before my first event.

2183
01:49:09,280 --> 01:49:11,080
Speaker 12: So I stayed in my hotel room and I turned

2184
01:49:11,120 --> 01:49:13,719
Speaker 12: on the news and I watched thirty minutes of Fox News,

2185
01:49:14,200 --> 01:49:17,519
Speaker 12: and when I got done, I was like, Wow, this

2186
01:49:17,600 --> 01:49:20,280
Speaker 12: guy is getting a raw deal. You know, there's just

2187
01:49:20,320 --> 01:49:23,240
Speaker 12: people coming after him. He may be guilty of a

2188
01:49:23,280 --> 01:49:25,760
Speaker 12: few things, but for the most part, this is a

2189
01:49:25,800 --> 01:49:30,240
Speaker 12: political you know, scam. And then I watched thirty minutes

2190
01:49:30,240 --> 01:49:33,040
Speaker 12: of MSNBC and I was like, dang, this guy needs

2191
01:49:33,040 --> 01:49:34,920
Speaker 12: to go to jail. You know, which is it is?

2192
01:49:35,439 --> 01:49:37,800
Speaker 12: Are they coming after him and lying about him? Or

2193
01:49:37,840 --> 01:49:41,600
Speaker 12: is he guilty? And so the answer is, I mean,

2194
01:49:41,640 --> 01:49:43,280
Speaker 12: I would have to have all the information in front

2195
01:49:43,320 --> 01:49:46,080
Speaker 12: of me to decipher myself on like a jury, if

2196
01:49:46,120 --> 01:49:48,320
Speaker 12: you will. But we don't have access to that information.

2197
01:49:48,520 --> 01:49:52,160
Speaker 12: So it is it's so hard and I don't have

2198
01:49:52,200 --> 01:49:57,080
Speaker 12: an answer for it other than it sucks, you know.

2199
01:49:57,160 --> 01:50:01,800
Speaker 12: And but the uninformed voter that I believe is one

2200
01:50:01,840 --> 01:50:05,599
Speaker 12: of the key ingredients to winning a successful election is

2201
01:50:06,840 --> 01:50:09,720
Speaker 12: you know. And you know again, deb Fisher spent ten

2202
01:50:09,760 --> 01:50:13,320
Speaker 12: million dollars in the last two weeks on mailers and

2203
01:50:13,400 --> 01:50:15,680
Speaker 12: ads painting me out to be somebody I'm not, and

2204
01:50:16,040 --> 01:50:19,320
Speaker 12: they just believed it because that's the information.

2205
01:50:18,920 --> 01:50:21,200
Speaker 7: That they received. You how do you reach that? How

2206
01:50:21,240 --> 01:50:22,360
Speaker 7: do you change that? I don't know.

2207
01:50:22,800 --> 01:50:26,360
Speaker 10: And it's a tough state. There's ninety Republican counties. The

2208
01:50:26,680 --> 01:50:29,720
Speaker 10: two that are Democrats have about forty six percent of voters.

2209
01:50:29,880 --> 01:50:33,320
Speaker 10: But this is a state that the Democrats didn't run

2210
01:50:33,360 --> 01:50:37,360
Speaker 10: a candidate in for the Senate race. How much of

2211
01:50:37,400 --> 01:50:41,360
Speaker 10: this picture of our politics today is painted by the

2212
01:50:41,439 --> 01:50:44,799
Speaker 10: Democrats sort of leaving certain parts of the country behind

2213
01:50:44,840 --> 01:50:46,120
Speaker 10: and not investing in them.

2214
01:50:46,240 --> 01:50:48,679
Speaker 12: Yeah, you know, especially I mean I can only speak

2215
01:50:48,720 --> 01:50:51,559
Speaker 12: to Nebraska, but you know, you I've traveled to the

2216
01:50:51,640 --> 01:50:54,240
Speaker 12: state and all of the radio stations are owned by

2217
01:50:55,439 --> 01:51:00,120
Speaker 12: Mike Flood, who's a congressman in Congressional District one. The

2218
01:51:00,160 --> 01:51:04,040
Speaker 12: newspapers are all by Republicans, so the information that they receive.

2219
01:51:05,360 --> 01:51:06,719
Speaker 7: Is certainly going to be biased.

2220
01:51:07,160 --> 01:51:10,240
Speaker 12: You know, every radio show you listen to in Greater

2221
01:51:10,320 --> 01:51:14,479
Speaker 12: Nebraska is conservative, so they don't even get another side

2222
01:51:14,479 --> 01:51:17,479
Speaker 12: of the story unless they're you know, plugged into the Internet,

2223
01:51:17,520 --> 01:51:21,240
Speaker 12: which most people probably aren't, you know, scrolling politics on

2224
01:51:21,280 --> 01:51:24,559
Speaker 12: the Internet and rural Nebraska I can't imagine. But so

2225
01:51:25,000 --> 01:51:27,559
Speaker 12: you know, that's where I think they've they've given up.

2226
01:51:28,120 --> 01:51:30,720
Speaker 12: And you know, if you want to be successful in

2227
01:51:30,800 --> 01:51:33,559
Speaker 12: rural Nebraska, you have to at least have your message

2228
01:51:33,560 --> 01:51:34,599
Speaker 12: out there for people to hear.

2229
01:51:35,040 --> 01:51:39,160
Speaker 10: And there couldn't be two candidates. Further on the political spectrum,

2230
01:51:39,200 --> 01:51:42,080
Speaker 10: when you talk about elites running our economy and government,

2231
01:51:42,120 --> 01:51:45,400
Speaker 10: then you and deb Fisher. This is someone who has

2232
01:51:45,439 --> 01:51:48,439
Speaker 10: served in the Senate, who has taken a ton of

2233
01:51:48,479 --> 01:51:53,639
Speaker 10: money from railroad lobbyists while North Platt, the largest railroad

2234
01:51:53,640 --> 01:51:56,920
Speaker 10: in the world, is here in Nebraska, and she's an

2235
01:51:56,920 --> 01:51:59,840
Speaker 10: active legislation to essentially allow these huge companies to regulate

2236
01:51:59,840 --> 01:52:05,000
Speaker 10: them selves compromise safety. Do you think running against deb

2237
01:52:05,080 --> 01:52:10,160
Speaker 10: Fisher helped you make this case to people who were

2238
01:52:10,160 --> 01:52:11,479
Speaker 10: they aware of what she was doing?

2239
01:52:11,560 --> 01:52:14,479
Speaker 12: No, most people aren't. Most people. Most people aren't aware

2240
01:52:14,520 --> 01:52:17,599
Speaker 12: of right to repair. Most people aren't aware of you know,

2241
01:52:17,640 --> 01:52:20,519
Speaker 12: what she has done, always sided on the corporate side

2242
01:52:20,560 --> 01:52:25,000
Speaker 12: of almost everything, you know, because that's her big donor base,

2243
01:52:25,000 --> 01:52:27,960
Speaker 12: and that's how they keep winning elections. You know, working

2244
01:52:27,960 --> 01:52:32,360
Speaker 12: people can't afford to buy senators. Multi national corporations do

2245
01:52:32,920 --> 01:52:37,719
Speaker 12: or can, and they do. So that's the uphill battle

2246
01:52:37,920 --> 01:52:41,760
Speaker 12: that working people have is we don't have the money.

2247
01:52:41,760 --> 01:52:43,600
Speaker 12: And that's what I'm hoping this fund will do is

2248
01:52:43,880 --> 01:52:47,080
Speaker 12: somewhat level of the playing field, so people do have

2249
01:52:47,120 --> 01:52:50,680
Speaker 12: a resource that they could go to and not have

2250
01:52:50,760 --> 01:52:53,160
Speaker 12: to take corporate money and just fall right in line

2251
01:52:53,200 --> 01:52:54,200
Speaker 12: with and do their bidding.

2252
01:52:54,760 --> 01:52:57,280
Speaker 10: Do you see the pack as ever being a path

2253
01:52:57,360 --> 01:52:59,160
Speaker 10: towards the third party?

2254
01:52:59,560 --> 01:53:00,880
Speaker 7: I've never thought about it that way.

2255
01:53:03,360 --> 01:53:07,799
Speaker 12: I mean, I would certainly consider thinking about a third party,

2256
01:53:08,360 --> 01:53:11,600
Speaker 12: you know, I just mostly think about just getting a

2257
01:53:11,600 --> 01:53:14,960
Speaker 12: seat at the table first of all, for you know,

2258
01:53:15,680 --> 01:53:20,240
Speaker 12: people like me, nurses, teachers, plumbers, carpenters, bus drivers, you know,

2259
01:53:21,320 --> 01:53:25,519
Speaker 12: people who do these trades and do these things every

2260
01:53:25,560 --> 01:53:27,680
Speaker 12: single day to provide for their families, to give a

2261
01:53:27,720 --> 01:53:30,680
Speaker 12: different outlook. That need that is so sorely needed in

2262
01:53:30,680 --> 01:53:33,880
Speaker 12: our government at all levels of government. For example, in

2263
01:53:33,920 --> 01:53:37,400
Speaker 12: the state legislature here, twelve thousand dollars is the annual

2264
01:53:37,439 --> 01:53:39,440
Speaker 12: salary for a state senator in Nebraska.

2265
01:53:39,560 --> 01:53:40,599
Speaker 7: I don't know how you can.

2266
01:53:41,080 --> 01:53:42,800
Speaker 12: You can't live off that, so you either have to

2267
01:53:42,800 --> 01:53:46,400
Speaker 12: be retired personally wealthy, or have a spouse that can

2268
01:53:46,439 --> 01:53:49,160
Speaker 12: take care of things so or have a business, you know,

2269
01:53:49,240 --> 01:53:51,920
Speaker 12: be a successful business person. So those are the only

2270
01:53:51,920 --> 01:53:55,320
Speaker 12: people that were tending to get that's a problem. Again,

2271
01:53:55,400 --> 01:53:59,240
Speaker 12: our state legislature doesn't represent you know, the full array

2272
01:53:59,640 --> 01:54:02,479
Speaker 12: of the people in the state. So it's the same

2273
01:54:02,520 --> 01:54:05,559
Speaker 12: on the federal So hopefully this is something that we'll

2274
01:54:05,560 --> 01:54:07,640
Speaker 12: be able to minimize that.

2275
01:54:08,360 --> 01:54:10,040
Speaker 10: I like how you brush it off, like, oh, I

2276
01:54:10,120 --> 01:54:12,120
Speaker 10: never thought I would ever need a party because you

2277
01:54:12,200 --> 01:54:17,240
Speaker 10: outperformed these candidates with a huge party backing them. Yeah,

2278
01:54:17,280 --> 01:54:19,400
Speaker 10: and I think some people maybe are searching for a

2279
01:54:19,400 --> 01:54:24,880
Speaker 10: political home. So how can people around the country get

2280
01:54:24,920 --> 01:54:26,120
Speaker 10: involved with the pack?

2281
01:54:26,680 --> 01:54:28,640
Speaker 12: You know, it would start by going to the website

2282
01:54:29,080 --> 01:54:32,600
Speaker 12: Working Class Heroes Dot fund and learning about it, and

2283
01:54:32,760 --> 01:54:37,240
Speaker 12: you know they can solicit to it as far as

2284
01:54:38,080 --> 01:54:42,120
Speaker 12: wanting help from it or donating to it would be

2285
01:54:42,360 --> 01:54:42,920
Speaker 12: a good way.

2286
01:54:42,960 --> 01:54:44,240
Speaker 7: You know, my.

2287
01:54:44,240 --> 01:54:47,400
Speaker 12: Average donation on the campaign was forty dollars, so I

2288
01:54:47,440 --> 01:54:50,720
Speaker 12: believe my campaign was truly powered by the people the

2289
01:54:50,720 --> 01:54:53,760
Speaker 12: way the framers of the Constitution intended this country to

2290
01:54:53,800 --> 01:54:57,120
Speaker 12: be a government buying for the people. And hopefully that's

2291
01:54:57,120 --> 01:55:00,520
Speaker 12: what this pack does as well. So you know, people

2292
01:55:00,560 --> 01:55:02,640
Speaker 12: think if I gave five bucks, that doesn't matter, Well,

2293
01:55:02,880 --> 01:55:05,280
Speaker 12: it definitely does matter, you know, if enough people do it.

2294
01:55:05,800 --> 01:55:08,800
Speaker 12: So so it's going to be working people helping out

2295
01:55:08,800 --> 01:55:12,160
Speaker 12: working people. Because if enough working people donate five, ten,

2296
01:55:12,240 --> 01:55:17,200
Speaker 12: fifteen dollars, you know, and we can help get three

2297
01:55:17,200 --> 01:55:20,000
Speaker 12: people elected, well that's worth it right there and then,

2298
01:55:20,080 --> 01:55:21,480
Speaker 12: and then it's only going to grow from there.

2299
01:55:21,880 --> 01:55:24,240
Speaker 10: It seems that coming out of this election, the Democrats

2300
01:55:24,240 --> 01:55:27,760
Speaker 10: aren't doing much listening a lot of the pundits I've

2301
01:55:27,800 --> 01:55:31,720
Speaker 10: listened to have said that a focus on social issues

2302
01:55:32,120 --> 01:55:36,640
Speaker 10: is what cost us the election, which I don't know

2303
01:55:36,680 --> 01:55:39,360
Speaker 10: that everyone has that takeaway. A lot of people say,

2304
01:55:39,600 --> 01:55:42,000
Speaker 10: maybe we should have focused on economic populism, we should

2305
01:55:42,040 --> 01:55:44,200
Speaker 10: have focused on bread and butter issues, But it seems

2306
01:55:44,280 --> 01:55:48,480
Speaker 10: that nevertheless, that's not something that it seems that they're

2307
01:55:48,480 --> 01:55:50,400
Speaker 10: taking away as a lesson or are going to focus

2308
01:55:50,400 --> 01:55:53,400
Speaker 10: on in the future, which kind of creates a lane

2309
01:55:53,480 --> 01:55:58,080
Speaker 10: for something like your pack to eventually turn into a party.

2310
01:55:58,240 --> 01:55:59,920
Speaker 10: So are you open to it?

2311
01:56:01,480 --> 01:56:03,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I'm open. I'm open.

2312
01:56:03,560 --> 01:56:06,040
Speaker 12: You know, I'm leaving everything on the table as of

2313
01:56:06,120 --> 01:56:10,080
Speaker 12: right now. You know, again, right now, I'm focused on

2314
01:56:10,120 --> 01:56:14,040
Speaker 12: getting back to work and getting into that groove. But also,

2315
01:56:15,040 --> 01:56:17,800
Speaker 12: you know, in twenty twenty six there's quite a few

2316
01:56:18,240 --> 01:56:20,320
Speaker 12: seats coming open in Nebraska.

2317
01:56:20,440 --> 01:56:23,280
Speaker 7: I'm leaving all those on the table. Everything. I'm not

2318
01:56:23,360 --> 01:56:25,600
Speaker 7: ruling anything out. Yeah, I'm going to see where the

2319
01:56:27,160 --> 01:56:29,160
Speaker 7: wind takes us with our sail up here.

2320
01:56:30,720 --> 01:56:31,920
Speaker 10: That's good. The fight not over.

2321
01:56:31,960 --> 01:56:33,560
Speaker 7: It sounds like it is not over.

2322
01:56:33,760 --> 01:56:37,480
Speaker 10: Thanks for talking to me. Yeah, I'm giving you all

2323
01:56:37,520 --> 01:56:38,320
Speaker 10: this homework.

2324
01:56:38,520 --> 01:56:39,120
Speaker 7: You can keep it.

2325
01:56:39,840 --> 01:56:41,839
Speaker 10: You want to keep it hanging on the fridge.

2326
01:56:44,600 --> 01:56:48,000
Speaker 4: One of the largest and most influential investigative journalism outits

2327
01:56:48,040 --> 01:56:50,680
Speaker 4: around the world that you've probably never heard of is

2328
01:56:50,680 --> 01:56:55,240
Speaker 4: called occ RP. That's short for Organized Crime and Corruption

2329
01:56:55,720 --> 01:56:56,680
Speaker 4: Reporting Project.

2330
01:56:56,680 --> 01:56:56,840
Speaker 8: Now.

2331
01:56:57,000 --> 01:57:01,000
Speaker 4: OCCRP has been instrumental in some of the biggest kind

2332
01:57:01,040 --> 01:57:04,000
Speaker 4: of global scoops that you probably have heard of. Some

2333
01:57:04,040 --> 01:57:09,879
Speaker 4: of those are called Swiss Leaks, Panama Papers, Pandora papers.

2334
01:57:09,920 --> 01:57:17,760
Speaker 4: These are collaborative journalistic collaborative journalistic projects that involve news

2335
01:57:17,840 --> 01:57:22,200
Speaker 4: organizations like Lamone, the Der Spiegel, the Washington Post, the Guardian,

2336
01:57:22,280 --> 01:57:25,839
Speaker 4: like the biggest names around the world. But the muscle

2337
01:57:26,560 --> 01:57:31,360
Speaker 4: for a lot of these projects has been the organization OCCRP,

2338
01:57:31,520 --> 01:57:34,840
Speaker 4: which has more than two hundred journalists around the world

2339
01:57:34,920 --> 01:57:39,840
Speaker 4: operating in at least sixty countries. They're the ones that

2340
01:57:39,920 --> 01:57:42,800
Speaker 4: really put the meat behind these stories that then get

2341
01:57:42,840 --> 01:57:46,200
Speaker 4: published in major papers around the country. We have a

2342
01:57:46,200 --> 01:57:49,480
Speaker 4: new investigation up at drop site news we can put

2343
01:57:49,560 --> 01:57:52,240
Speaker 4: up on the screen here which reveals for the first

2344
01:57:52,240 --> 01:57:56,080
Speaker 4: time that more than fifty percent of the funding from

2345
01:57:56,200 --> 01:58:02,800
Speaker 4: occr for OCCRP comes from the United States government, and

2346
01:58:02,960 --> 01:58:07,200
Speaker 4: the bulk of that coming from US A I. D.

2347
01:58:07,560 --> 01:58:12,440
Speaker 4: H The first important grant that went to occ RP

2348
01:58:13,040 --> 01:58:18,200
Speaker 4: was from a the international was from a law enforcement

2349
01:58:18,760 --> 01:58:21,080
Speaker 4: agency within the state department.

2350
01:58:21,720 --> 01:58:21,840
Speaker 12: UH.

2351
01:58:24,080 --> 01:58:25,600
Speaker 1: Now we will put.

2352
01:58:25,360 --> 01:58:27,640
Speaker 4: The full link to We'll put the link to the

2353
01:58:27,640 --> 01:58:31,320
Speaker 4: full story here at the notes of this article. We'll

2354
01:58:31,320 --> 01:58:33,880
Speaker 4: put it down in the comments. And always, of course,

2355
01:58:34,120 --> 01:58:36,600
Speaker 4: UH if you're not getting our emails yet over at

2356
01:58:36,840 --> 01:58:38,960
Speaker 4: drop side News, go to drop side news dot com.

2357
01:58:39,320 --> 01:58:42,200
Speaker 4: UH sign sign up to get those. We can put

2358
01:58:42,240 --> 01:58:47,880
Speaker 4: up this next element. We worked in collaboration with three

2359
01:58:48,000 --> 01:58:52,080
Speaker 4: with three independent news outlets over in Europe, and you

2360
01:58:52,400 --> 01:58:55,240
Speaker 4: can read more about them in the article that we

2361
01:58:55,360 --> 01:58:58,960
Speaker 4: have linked down here. And in order to in order

2362
01:58:59,000 --> 01:59:02,760
Speaker 4: to find the detail of this funding, we didn't actually

2363
01:59:02,760 --> 01:59:06,520
Speaker 4: need anybody to leak this or to blow a whistle.

2364
01:59:06,960 --> 01:59:10,840
Speaker 1: What we had to do is find the audit reports

2365
01:59:10,840 --> 01:59:11,720
Speaker 1: that are that.

2366
01:59:11,720 --> 01:59:16,760
Speaker 4: Are on file, that are that are available publicly, and

2367
01:59:17,360 --> 01:59:21,480
Speaker 4: cross reference them with federal budget documents. And it was

2368
01:59:21,520 --> 01:59:26,200
Speaker 4: a rather painstaking process, but the result is what you

2369
01:59:26,280 --> 01:59:26,800
Speaker 4: see here.

2370
01:59:27,560 --> 01:59:29,960
Speaker 1: Our calculation was that more than.

2371
01:59:29,800 --> 01:59:31,760
Speaker 4: Fifty percent of this of the money ended up coming

2372
01:59:31,760 --> 01:59:34,360
Speaker 4: from the United States government. Now, when we went to

2373
01:59:34,680 --> 01:59:39,840
Speaker 4: OCCRP for comment, one quibble they had with our methodology

2374
01:59:40,000 --> 01:59:44,080
Speaker 4: is they said that you should not actually count federal

2375
01:59:44,120 --> 01:59:49,640
Speaker 4: government money that is given to OCCRP that OCCRP then

2376
01:59:50,040 --> 01:59:54,000
Speaker 4: sends on to sub grantees. Okay, I kind of think

2377
01:59:54,040 --> 01:59:57,920
Speaker 4: you should count that, But if you exclude that money,

2378
01:59:58,160 --> 02:00:02,240
Speaker 4: you are still left with forty six percent of the

2379
02:00:02,280 --> 02:00:06,120
Speaker 4: funding coming from the United States government. Now that also

2380
02:00:06,240 --> 02:00:11,720
Speaker 4: sets aside the fact that the UK and other major

2381
02:00:11,760 --> 02:00:17,720
Speaker 4: Western powers in Europe also contribute money to OCCRP something

2382
02:00:17,800 --> 02:00:20,880
Speaker 4: like roughly fifteen million dollars over the last over the

2383
02:00:20,920 --> 02:00:24,720
Speaker 4: last ten years, on top of what the US is

2384
02:00:24,760 --> 02:00:25,360
Speaker 4: already setting.

2385
02:00:25,440 --> 02:00:28,000
Speaker 1: So why does this matter.

2386
02:00:29,040 --> 02:00:32,360
Speaker 4: Well, from the one hand, and I'm curious for your

2387
02:00:32,360 --> 02:00:35,640
Speaker 4: take on this, you could say, look, it's very difficult

2388
02:00:35,640 --> 02:00:39,760
Speaker 4: to fund investigative journalism, and investigative journalism is important. And

2389
02:00:40,120 --> 02:00:44,920
Speaker 4: the argument that OCCRP makes is that there are there

2390
02:00:44,960 --> 02:00:48,640
Speaker 4: are no kind of serious strings attached to this money

2391
02:00:48,680 --> 02:00:53,200
Speaker 4: because the United States stands for freedom and democracy and

2392
02:00:53,240 --> 02:00:57,320
Speaker 4: the free press, and it is in America's interest for

2393
02:00:57,400 --> 02:01:00,640
Speaker 4: there to be investigative journalism around the world, and so

2394
02:01:00,680 --> 02:01:03,600
Speaker 4: they fund it with a clean, hands hands off approach,

2395
02:01:04,440 --> 02:01:08,960
Speaker 4: and you can just you known any product of that

2396
02:01:09,040 --> 02:01:12,000
Speaker 4: is going to be beneficial to the world because investigative

2397
02:01:12,040 --> 02:01:15,280
Speaker 4: journalism is good, corruption is bad, and the US supports,

2398
02:01:16,680 --> 02:01:20,880
Speaker 4: you know, the US supports that that entire process. Now,

2399
02:01:21,320 --> 02:01:24,800
Speaker 4: the one one detail counter argument to that is that

2400
02:01:25,600 --> 02:01:28,240
Speaker 4: when the federal government gives money to an organization, it

2401
02:01:28,240 --> 02:01:29,520
Speaker 4: does actually come with strings.

2402
02:01:29,960 --> 02:01:31,320
Speaker 1: One of the strings, some of them.

2403
02:01:31,200 --> 02:01:35,960
Speaker 4: Are silly, like not silly, but trivial, like the journalists

2404
02:01:35,960 --> 02:01:39,280
Speaker 4: have to fly American American airlines, not American airlines itself,

2405
02:01:39,320 --> 02:01:41,480
Speaker 4: but an American airline if it's possible.

2406
02:01:41,560 --> 02:01:43,080
Speaker 1: Okay, that's kind of funny, but.

2407
02:01:43,000 --> 02:01:47,640
Speaker 4: That's not actually harming the journalism. The other string that

2408
02:01:47,640 --> 02:01:51,760
Speaker 4: comes attached is that the US government can veto the

2409
02:01:51,800 --> 02:01:57,200
Speaker 4: top hires of the organization, which is a pretty significant one.

2410
02:01:57,400 --> 02:01:58,680
Speaker 4: And then on the other hand, there's the kind of

2411
02:01:58,680 --> 02:02:04,800
Speaker 4: the atmospheric where you don't have to directly let an

2412
02:02:04,880 --> 02:02:10,240
Speaker 4: organization know what America's interest is in a particular country.

2413
02:02:10,280 --> 02:02:13,880
Speaker 4: Everybody already knows, and people know like, if we're investigating

2414
02:02:14,480 --> 02:02:17,920
Speaker 4: let's say, America's adversaries, that's going to be looked on fondly.

2415
02:02:18,920 --> 02:02:20,200
Speaker 1: If we're invested.

2416
02:02:20,240 --> 02:02:22,960
Speaker 4: If we're not, we're if we're going after America's friends,

2417
02:02:24,280 --> 02:02:27,120
Speaker 4: that you know that might come with consequences, might not,

2418
02:02:27,400 --> 02:02:29,200
Speaker 4: but it might, and I'm sure that's in the back

2419
02:02:29,200 --> 02:02:30,800
Speaker 4: of people's minds. So I'm curious for your take on

2420
02:02:31,200 --> 02:02:35,360
Speaker 4: broadly what it means that this giant of journalism is

2421
02:02:35,400 --> 02:02:38,440
Speaker 4: actually majority funded by the US government.

2422
02:02:38,600 --> 02:02:41,520
Speaker 5: I mean, I think their excuse or their justification or

2423
02:02:41,560 --> 02:02:44,760
Speaker 5: their rationalization where they say, actually, if you crunch the numbers,

2424
02:02:44,760 --> 02:02:47,440
Speaker 5: it's only forty six percent of their funding is laughable

2425
02:02:47,480 --> 02:02:50,360
Speaker 5: because to any person, if you explained that they are

2426
02:02:50,480 --> 02:02:53,600
Speaker 5: quietly half funded by the United States government at the

2427
02:02:53,680 --> 02:02:57,760
Speaker 5: very least forty six necessarily you're pretty close to halfway

2428
02:02:57,760 --> 02:03:00,360
Speaker 5: funded at that point. Even getting a significant chunk of

2429
02:03:00,360 --> 02:03:03,640
Speaker 5: your funding from the United States government is meaningful when

2430
02:03:03,880 --> 02:03:08,560
Speaker 5: you are primarily chasing stories on foreign targets. And that's

2431
02:03:08,600 --> 02:03:12,400
Speaker 5: really important because to your point, Ryan, you wrote in

2432
02:03:12,400 --> 02:03:14,800
Speaker 5: the story is very fair and helpful story. They have

2433
02:03:14,880 --> 02:03:17,800
Speaker 5: gone after the United States government and certain reports they

2434
02:03:17,800 --> 02:03:19,880
Speaker 5: have done things that may be unfavorable to the United

2435
02:03:19,880 --> 02:03:24,240
Speaker 5: States government. But if we're using taxpayer resources to intentionally

2436
02:03:24,760 --> 02:03:29,640
Speaker 5: muckrake on foreign adversaries, that's very worth knowing when you're

2437
02:03:29,680 --> 02:03:33,320
Speaker 5: considering the source of the reporting and their denial ish

2438
02:03:33,680 --> 02:03:35,880
Speaker 5: reminding me a little bit of what they said when

2439
02:03:36,160 --> 02:03:39,280
Speaker 5: I know you remember this the Cuban Twitter fiasco of

2440
02:03:39,320 --> 02:03:41,960
Speaker 5: like twenty fourteen, when USAID tried to create a quo

2441
02:03:42,080 --> 02:03:46,720
Speaker 5: Cuban spring with like a Twitter in Cuba. They said,

2442
02:03:47,760 --> 02:03:51,600
Speaker 5: this is the USAID. This is a comment to Time magazine.

2443
02:03:51,640 --> 02:03:55,080
Speaker 5: They said, working to improve platforms of communication is a

2444
02:03:55,160 --> 02:03:58,840
Speaker 5: core part of what USAID works to do. It's an

2445
02:03:58,840 --> 02:04:01,360
Speaker 5: accurate to say that the program goes beyond that. So

2446
02:04:01,440 --> 02:04:04,680
Speaker 5: their defense is really similar that what they're doing is

2447
02:04:04,800 --> 02:04:10,240
Speaker 5: just improving communication. They're just furthering democracy via the free press.

2448
02:04:10,600 --> 02:04:12,760
Speaker 1: It's with a bunch of bots in Cuba.

2449
02:04:12,880 --> 02:04:13,080
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2450
02:04:13,080 --> 02:04:15,520
Speaker 4: And the history is I think really important, and we

2451
02:04:15,560 --> 02:04:18,560
Speaker 4: go into it in detail in the story, but it

2452
02:04:18,640 --> 02:04:23,800
Speaker 4: goes back interestingly to the Philippines, where there was a

2453
02:04:23,880 --> 02:04:29,040
Speaker 4: nationalist leader there, Joseph Strata, who had a stand offfice

2454
02:04:29,080 --> 02:04:31,920
Speaker 4: relationship with the United States, because then anybody who was

2455
02:04:32,080 --> 02:04:34,400
Speaker 4: a nationalist and is not just completely in the pocket

2456
02:04:34,720 --> 02:04:37,200
Speaker 4: of the United States is by definition going to have

2457
02:04:37,200 --> 02:04:43,839
Speaker 4: a standoffish relationship. And there was a nonprofit investigative outfit

2458
02:04:43,920 --> 02:04:47,680
Speaker 4: there in the Philippines that broke some significant.

2459
02:04:47,120 --> 02:04:49,120
Speaker 1: Corruption news around Astrata.

2460
02:04:49,160 --> 02:04:53,640
Speaker 4: That outlet has taken money from the National Endowment for Democracy,

2461
02:04:54,040 --> 02:04:58,280
Speaker 4: which was created in the nineteen eighties to move The

2462
02:04:58,640 --> 02:05:03,680
Speaker 4: CIA is kind of under underground, clandestine funding of civil society.

2463
02:05:03,920 --> 02:05:06,960
Speaker 4: You know, in Europe, for instance, post World War Two,

2464
02:05:07,120 --> 02:05:09,880
Speaker 4: the CIA was funding Paris Review and basically any any

2465
02:05:09,920 --> 02:05:13,720
Speaker 4: cultural project in Europe was had was getting money from

2466
02:05:13,720 --> 02:05:14,120
Speaker 4: the CIA.

2467
02:05:14,200 --> 02:05:16,600
Speaker 1: That was exposed in the nineteen seventies. It was embarrassing.

2468
02:05:16,880 --> 02:05:19,440
Speaker 4: So in the nineteen eighties they created an e D

2469
02:05:19,680 --> 02:05:24,120
Speaker 4: which is legally a nonprofit, but is almost exclusively funded

2470
02:05:25,240 --> 02:05:27,800
Speaker 4: you know, by the by the US government for these

2471
02:05:28,040 --> 02:05:29,920
Speaker 4: national national security interests purposes.

2472
02:05:30,000 --> 02:05:30,920
Speaker 6: And we've said as much.

2473
02:05:31,120 --> 02:05:33,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is is not a conspiracy theory.

2474
02:05:33,360 --> 02:05:35,360
Speaker 4: This is I mean, it's a conspiracy, but it's not

2475
02:05:35,400 --> 02:05:37,640
Speaker 4: a theory. It's done out, it's done out in the open,

2476
02:05:37,640 --> 02:05:39,920
Speaker 4: and it's part of our uh. It's part of our

2477
02:05:39,920 --> 02:05:40,640
Speaker 4: foreign policy.

2478
02:05:41,120 --> 02:05:41,280
Speaker 7: UH.

2479
02:05:41,360 --> 02:05:44,120
Speaker 4: And it and it operates a hand in glove with US.

2480
02:05:44,160 --> 02:05:46,240
Speaker 4: A I D U S A I D was making

2481
02:05:46,360 --> 02:05:48,280
Speaker 4: the grants to any D and any D would then

2482
02:05:48,320 --> 02:05:50,520
Speaker 4: fund them, would then send them to O C, C

2483
02:05:50,720 --> 02:05:56,280
Speaker 4: RP and other places. And so this this Philippine organization

2484
02:05:56,320 --> 02:06:00,360
Speaker 4: broke this news UH. It created an impeachment inquiry, which

2485
02:06:00,760 --> 02:06:04,960
Speaker 4: did not succeed in UH in impeaching him, but it

2486
02:06:05,000 --> 02:06:09,200
Speaker 4: also created street protests, and the street protests eventually led

2487
02:06:09,240 --> 02:06:10,960
Speaker 4: to his ouster in a coup.

2488
02:06:11,800 --> 02:06:11,920
Speaker 7: UH.

2489
02:06:12,440 --> 02:06:16,760
Speaker 4: Michael Henning was a State department official who are consortium

2490
02:06:16,800 --> 02:06:18,440
Speaker 4: of news organizations.

2491
02:06:19,360 --> 02:06:21,160
Speaker 1: Interviewed for this article.

2492
02:06:21,160 --> 02:06:25,040
Speaker 4: In particular, NDR, which is a German public broadcaster, interviewed

2493
02:06:25,080 --> 02:06:28,960
Speaker 4: him and he said that he when he was stationed

2494
02:06:28,960 --> 02:06:32,440
Speaker 4: in the Philippines, he saw the effectiveness of the of

2495
02:06:32,480 --> 02:06:34,920
Speaker 4: the of the pen being mightier than the sword, that

2496
02:06:35,560 --> 02:06:40,800
Speaker 4: being able to wield that investigative journalism against a geopolitical

2497
02:06:40,800 --> 02:06:43,520
Speaker 4: adversary was extremely powerful.

2498
02:06:43,920 --> 02:06:44,120
Speaker 1: UH.

2499
02:06:44,160 --> 02:06:48,640
Speaker 4: And also you know it gives the USA a deniability

2500
02:06:48,680 --> 02:06:52,040
Speaker 4: there this is these are these are just the Philippine

2501
02:06:52,040 --> 02:06:55,440
Speaker 4: people standing up for the corruption that they have the

2502
02:06:55,600 --> 02:06:57,360
Speaker 4: witness and they want and they want to clean it,

2503
02:06:57,440 --> 02:07:00,800
Speaker 4: clean it out. Henning that then gets sent over to

2504
02:07:00,840 --> 02:07:04,720
Speaker 4: Bosnia where he where he serves in the embassy over there,

2505
02:07:04,920 --> 02:07:08,600
Speaker 4: and he was instrumental in getting the initial funding and

2506
02:07:09,080 --> 02:07:11,920
Speaker 4: helping to and or helping to set up O c

2507
02:07:12,040 --> 02:07:12,400
Speaker 4: c r P.

2508
02:07:12,560 --> 02:07:14,440
Speaker 1: He said that he connected.

2509
02:07:15,400 --> 02:07:18,600
Speaker 4: UH the drew Sullivan, who was the founder of O

2510
02:07:18,720 --> 02:07:21,920
Speaker 4: C c r P and still runs it with the

2511
02:07:22,040 --> 02:07:24,880
Speaker 4: editor of that Philippine paper, so that they could they

2512
02:07:24,920 --> 02:07:29,520
Speaker 4: could swap they could swap notes. Uh Sullivan, who also

2513
02:07:29,920 --> 02:07:34,000
Speaker 4: gave an interview for this project, said that, you know,

2514
02:07:34,320 --> 02:07:38,000
Speaker 4: transitioning Eastern Europe, you know, from a more kind of

2515
02:07:39,000 --> 02:07:44,760
Speaker 4: Soviet leaning, Russia friendly, state centric type of economy to

2516
02:07:46,160 --> 02:07:51,200
Speaker 4: a neoliberal, Western friendly, market oriented, you know, free of

2517
02:07:51,240 --> 02:07:56,840
Speaker 4: corruption economy was central to the spread of journalism in

2518
02:07:56,880 --> 02:08:01,200
Speaker 4: that in that region. So nobody really is denying at

2519
02:08:01,240 --> 02:08:05,680
Speaker 4: all that the mission here is the pursuit of US

2520
02:08:05,760 --> 02:08:06,720
Speaker 4: national interest.

2521
02:08:06,840 --> 02:08:07,600
Speaker 6: It's not novel.

2522
02:08:07,920 --> 02:08:09,880
Speaker 5: I mean, there's that quote that was given to David

2523
02:08:09,880 --> 02:08:14,240
Speaker 5: Ignatius in nineteen ninety one about how the NED a

2524
02:08:14,280 --> 02:08:17,240
Speaker 5: lot of what they're doing overtly was done covertly by

2525
02:08:17,360 --> 02:08:20,280
Speaker 5: the CIA years ago. Its from like Alan Winston, right, Yeah,

2526
02:08:20,520 --> 02:08:22,520
Speaker 5: it was. I mean, that's the government said it openly.

2527
02:08:22,560 --> 02:08:24,960
Speaker 5: So it's not novel that the US government would do this,

2528
02:08:25,120 --> 02:08:27,240
Speaker 5: which is why some of the denials are sort of funny.

2529
02:08:27,280 --> 02:08:30,040
Speaker 5: It's like, this is part of this is a practice

2530
02:08:30,080 --> 02:08:31,680
Speaker 5: of the United States for a long time, and that's

2531
02:08:31,720 --> 02:08:34,560
Speaker 5: where I thought your story hit on something really interesting

2532
02:08:34,760 --> 02:08:39,040
Speaker 5: about how the impeachment or the whistle blower and this

2533
02:08:39,080 --> 02:08:40,840
Speaker 5: gets to Ukraine. So if you're on the right and

2534
02:08:40,880 --> 02:08:42,440
Speaker 5: you're not sort of like a diet in the wool

2535
02:08:42,480 --> 02:08:46,640
Speaker 5: adversary of the NED, which was supported by Reagan era

2536
02:08:46,840 --> 02:08:47,680
Speaker 5: sort of cold.

2537
02:08:47,440 --> 02:08:49,040
Speaker 6: Warriors and all those things.

2538
02:08:49,800 --> 02:08:52,400
Speaker 5: I mean in all, seriously, the thing the problem with

2539
02:08:52,520 --> 02:08:55,840
Speaker 5: practices like this are pretty clear when you think about

2540
02:08:55,880 --> 02:08:59,640
Speaker 5: how in the whistleblower letter that led to the impeachment

2541
02:08:59,720 --> 02:09:01,800
Speaker 5: was just part of the predicate for the pH.

2542
02:09:01,560 --> 02:09:06,520
Speaker 6: Of Donald Trump, of Donald Trump, the mphment of Donald Trump.

2543
02:09:06,680 --> 02:09:08,320
Speaker 6: It immediately cited.

2544
02:09:08,200 --> 02:09:10,800
Speaker 1: The report a report from the CRP.

2545
02:09:10,960 --> 02:09:14,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, the OCCRP, And you start to put the that

2546
02:09:14,440 --> 02:09:16,680
Speaker 5: doesn't mean that what was in the report was wrong.

2547
02:09:16,880 --> 02:09:17,400
Speaker 1: But it does.

2548
02:09:17,520 --> 02:09:19,480
Speaker 4: There's a real wait a minute quality to it where

2549
02:09:19,480 --> 02:09:22,920
Speaker 4: you're like, wait a minute. Yeah, the whistleblower letter to

2550
02:09:23,080 --> 02:09:30,640
Speaker 4: Congress about Donald Trump, Yeah, cited in its footnotes OCCRP

2551
02:09:30,800 --> 02:09:35,680
Speaker 4: reporting four times. And OCCRP is half funded by the

2552
02:09:35,720 --> 02:09:36,400
Speaker 4: federal government.

2553
02:09:36,520 --> 02:09:37,400
Speaker 6: And then the CIA.

2554
02:09:38,480 --> 02:09:41,240
Speaker 5: There were CIA email addresses used in the organization of

2555
02:09:41,280 --> 02:09:44,480
Speaker 5: the letter to suppress the Hunter Biden laptop reporting. Right,

2556
02:09:44,720 --> 02:09:47,400
Speaker 5: the CIA is not friendly to Donald Trump. The FBI

2557
02:09:47,520 --> 02:09:49,640
Speaker 5: is not friendly to Donald Trump. There have obviously been

2558
02:09:49,800 --> 02:09:52,000
Speaker 5: the FAI was talking about a qute unuote insurance policy

2559
02:09:52,080 --> 02:09:56,000
Speaker 5: against Donald Trump in twenty sixteen, and then the CIA.

2560
02:09:56,080 --> 02:09:58,280
Speaker 5: There's email addresses used by the CIA to organize the

2561
02:09:58,360 --> 02:10:01,760
Speaker 5: letter suggesting that the laptop was disinformation, leading to its

2562
02:10:01,760 --> 02:10:05,320
Speaker 5: suppression in the media. You put those pieces together and

2563
02:10:05,360 --> 02:10:09,880
Speaker 5: you think, huh, what is the CIA potentially planting with

2564
02:10:10,000 --> 02:10:11,760
Speaker 5: friendly sources. And one of the things I thought your

2565
02:10:11,800 --> 02:10:17,120
Speaker 5: story was really helpful and elucidating was how these casual

2566
02:10:17,840 --> 02:10:23,640
Speaker 5: connections at USAAD and reporters, you know, even though they

2567
02:10:23,640 --> 02:10:27,680
Speaker 5: say we're not getting top down directions about what's being

2568
02:10:27,720 --> 02:10:30,960
Speaker 5: planted or propaganda or what we need to write, it's

2569
02:10:30,960 --> 02:10:32,680
Speaker 5: just sort of like you're hired because you're on.

2570
02:10:32,640 --> 02:10:34,480
Speaker 6: The same wavelength, right.

2571
02:10:34,840 --> 02:10:35,080
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2572
02:10:35,120 --> 02:10:37,200
Speaker 1: And also and we don't know, we don't know what's

2573
02:10:37,240 --> 02:10:38,160
Speaker 1: being talked about.

2574
02:10:38,040 --> 02:10:40,280
Speaker 4: Right and if it's and if it's just an OCCRP

2575
02:10:40,400 --> 02:10:44,440
Speaker 4: to its credit, I will say, does disclose their list

2576
02:10:44,480 --> 02:10:46,760
Speaker 4: of funders like they will say we do get money

2577
02:10:46,800 --> 02:10:48,280
Speaker 4: from the State Department, like you can find that on

2578
02:10:48,320 --> 02:10:50,880
Speaker 4: their website. They've never said we get half our money

2579
02:10:51,160 --> 02:10:53,000
Speaker 4: from the State Department, but they have disclosed that.

2580
02:10:53,000 --> 02:10:54,280
Speaker 1: They do get some money from this area.

2581
02:10:55,360 --> 02:10:57,760
Speaker 4: But when you're reading an article in the Washington Post

2582
02:10:57,840 --> 02:11:00,800
Speaker 4: or the Guardian that was actually you know that the

2583
02:11:01,040 --> 02:11:04,960
Speaker 4: meat of the reporting was done by OCCRP. As a reader,

2584
02:11:05,240 --> 02:11:08,520
Speaker 4: you don't know that this is heavily funded by the

2585
02:11:08,680 --> 02:11:11,280
Speaker 4: US government because you're reading it in the Washington Post

2586
02:11:11,400 --> 02:11:11,920
Speaker 4: or the Guardian.

2587
02:11:12,400 --> 02:11:14,680
Speaker 1: So it's a way to launder it back back through.

2588
02:11:15,440 --> 02:11:17,560
Speaker 4: And you know, we talk at the very end of

2589
02:11:17,600 --> 02:11:22,320
Speaker 4: the story about the obvious counterexample to the idea that

2590
02:11:22,400 --> 02:11:26,280
Speaker 4: the US just loves investigating global investigative reporting, which people

2591
02:11:26,360 --> 02:11:28,840
Speaker 4: watching US if probably in their mind they're go, wait

2592
02:11:28,880 --> 02:11:32,480
Speaker 4: a minute, hold on, the US loves global investigative reporting.

2593
02:11:32,560 --> 02:11:37,640
Speaker 1: They love least, they just love that. What about Wiki League,

2594
02:11:39,520 --> 02:11:40,400
Speaker 1: do they really so?

2595
02:11:41,040 --> 02:11:45,160
Speaker 4: Wiki Leaks, which expose you know, enormous amounts of corruption

2596
02:11:45,840 --> 02:11:49,720
Speaker 4: in the Middle East and helped to spark the Arab spring,

2597
02:11:50,240 --> 02:11:52,480
Speaker 4: was on the rise at the at a similar time

2598
02:11:52,560 --> 02:11:56,280
Speaker 4: as OCCRP, and the reaction and the posture of the

2599
02:11:56,400 --> 02:11:59,240
Speaker 4: United States government towards Wiki Leaks. Now, obviously there's some differences.

2600
02:11:59,800 --> 02:12:03,120
Speaker 4: The you know, Wiki leaks also deals with much more

2601
02:12:03,440 --> 02:12:05,000
Speaker 4: often in classified information.

2602
02:12:05,080 --> 02:12:09,360
Speaker 1: Oh, se r P is almost very rarely to your

2603
02:12:09,520 --> 02:12:11,320
Speaker 1: deals in classified information. They deal in.

2604
02:12:12,840 --> 02:12:17,000
Speaker 4: You know, huge caches of bank documents or other you know,

2605
02:12:17,160 --> 02:12:22,120
Speaker 4: off offshore financial operations will will be you know, the

2606
02:12:22,560 --> 02:12:24,760
Speaker 4: massive amounts of data will be leaked on that and

2607
02:12:24,960 --> 02:12:29,600
Speaker 4: exposing financial corruption often of you you know, oligarchs and

2608
02:12:29,920 --> 02:12:31,080
Speaker 4: other US adversaries.

2609
02:12:31,360 --> 02:12:35,000
Speaker 1: So there are differences between WikiLeaks and o c c RP.

2610
02:12:35,200 --> 02:12:38,440
Speaker 4: But Wiki leaks exposed massive corruption in the Middle East

2611
02:12:38,480 --> 02:12:42,800
Speaker 4: help help lead to the Arab Spring. The response of

2612
02:12:42,840 --> 02:12:47,000
Speaker 4: the United States was relentless you prosecution and persecution and

2613
02:12:47,240 --> 02:12:52,400
Speaker 4: attempts to extradite publisher Julian Assange and ultimately convicting him

2614
02:12:52,440 --> 02:12:55,480
Speaker 4: of publishing classified information in this plea deal that let

2615
02:12:55,600 --> 02:12:57,360
Speaker 4: him go back to Australia.

2616
02:12:57,640 --> 02:12:59,440
Speaker 1: So completely different approaches.

2617
02:12:59,560 --> 02:13:02,800
Speaker 6: Well, and if I'm misremembering this, you'll know better.

2618
02:13:02,880 --> 02:13:05,160
Speaker 5: But if I'm remembering correctly, in the similar way that

2619
02:13:05,280 --> 02:13:10,640
Speaker 5: there are conspicuous questions about joining Assange and Russia, like

2620
02:13:10,920 --> 02:13:13,240
Speaker 5: where there thing is unfearable to Russia that didn't come

2621
02:13:13,280 --> 02:13:16,120
Speaker 5: out in Wiki leaks, there are sort of similar questions

2622
02:13:16,160 --> 02:13:18,600
Speaker 5: about Pandora and Panama papers. Right, They're like it's a

2623
02:13:18,720 --> 02:13:20,360
Speaker 5: sort of complicated, multi layers.

2624
02:13:20,400 --> 02:13:21,560
Speaker 4: A lot of people are like, well, wait a minute,

2625
02:13:21,720 --> 02:13:24,040
Speaker 4: what about the stuff, where's the where's the good stuff

2626
02:13:24,080 --> 02:13:24,960
Speaker 4: on our holigarchs?

2627
02:13:25,120 --> 02:13:26,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was a lot of like it.

2628
02:13:26,360 --> 02:13:28,880
Speaker 5: It was heavy Russian oligarchs, yeah, right, which is not

2629
02:13:29,000 --> 02:13:31,560
Speaker 5: journalism by the way, if you have all of the information, right,

2630
02:13:31,600 --> 02:13:33,440
Speaker 5: if you have the information on all of the oligarchs

2631
02:13:33,800 --> 02:13:37,360
Speaker 5: in the data, and you're only publishing on the Russians.

2632
02:13:37,200 --> 02:13:39,240
Speaker 4: Right, But they may have only had the information on

2633
02:13:39,280 --> 02:13:40,880
Speaker 4: the Russians, right, we don't know where the heck did

2634
02:13:40,880 --> 02:13:41,560
Speaker 4: they get this stuff?

2635
02:13:41,720 --> 02:13:44,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, but we don't know even though it's potentially

2636
02:13:44,320 --> 02:13:45,280
Speaker 5: being funded by our money.

2637
02:13:45,360 --> 02:13:47,480
Speaker 1: Their sources just never seen to get exposed either.

2638
02:13:47,920 --> 02:13:48,640
Speaker 6: Crazy stuff.

2639
02:13:48,760 --> 02:13:50,440
Speaker 1: But why can't they Why can't they see how they

2640
02:13:50,480 --> 02:13:51,200
Speaker 1: find their sources?

2641
02:13:51,320 --> 02:13:53,400
Speaker 6: It's a great story. Interesting, there's a great story, and

2642
02:13:53,880 --> 02:13:56,360
Speaker 6: you managed to I think break through the right too.

2643
02:13:56,800 --> 02:13:59,000
Speaker 1: Oh good, I'm glad people are reading it. Yeah, so

2644
02:13:59,160 --> 02:13:59,600
Speaker 1: check it out.

2645
02:14:00,360 --> 02:14:02,400
Speaker 4: We'll put a link down there, but it's you can

2646
02:14:02,440 --> 02:14:04,760
Speaker 4: find it over drop site news dot com where you

2647
02:14:04,760 --> 02:14:08,040
Speaker 4: can find it at Media part which is the French

2648
02:14:08,880 --> 02:14:12,560
Speaker 4: independent news organization. I forget the name of the Italian

2649
02:14:12,600 --> 02:14:15,520
Speaker 4: one is very Italian, and it's the Reporters United, which

2650
02:14:15,560 --> 02:14:17,040
Speaker 4: is the Greek Greek paper that.

2651
02:14:17,040 --> 02:14:17,560
Speaker 1: We worked on it.

2652
02:14:19,120 --> 02:14:23,280
Speaker 4: So we'll put links to all of them because they

2653
02:14:23,760 --> 02:14:25,800
Speaker 4: it was a real thrill and privilege to work with

2654
02:14:25,880 --> 02:14:30,480
Speaker 4: all of these journalists. Stefani Marizzi, you may know, was

2655
02:14:30,520 --> 02:14:32,120
Speaker 4: the Italian journalists who worked on this, has done a

2656
02:14:32,120 --> 02:14:35,080
Speaker 4: lot of work on on on Wiki leaks, and hopefully

2657
02:14:35,080 --> 02:14:38,240
Speaker 4: we'll do more kind of collaborations with them and grow

2658
02:14:38,480 --> 02:14:42,520
Speaker 4: the network of independent news organizations around the world that

2659
02:14:42,600 --> 02:14:43,760
Speaker 4: are they're willing.

2660
02:14:43,640 --> 02:14:44,880
Speaker 1: To take on these kinds of stories.

2661
02:14:45,000 --> 02:14:48,080
Speaker 6: Maybe I'll get some money from the government. I don't

2662
02:14:48,120 --> 02:14:49,360
Speaker 6: think so. I don't think so.

2663
02:14:49,960 --> 02:14:51,760
Speaker 1: We might have bitten that hand a little bit too hard.

2664
02:14:52,000 --> 02:14:54,480
Speaker 6: Well, there's also the fact that you're already working for

2665
02:14:54,560 --> 02:14:55,040
Speaker 6: the CIA.

2666
02:14:55,160 --> 02:14:59,400
Speaker 5: That's right, Yeah, never forget, Never forget well, Bran, great reporting.

2667
02:15:00,080 --> 02:15:03,000
Speaker 5: Great to be back here on the festive Winter set.

2668
02:15:04,200 --> 02:15:06,760
Speaker 5: As we discussed all kinds of terrible things. It's nice

2669
02:15:06,800 --> 02:15:08,600
Speaker 5: to have the charming Snowflakes behind us, and.

2670
02:15:08,680 --> 02:15:12,720
Speaker 1: We will have a counterpoints Friday, So come back.

2671
02:15:12,600 --> 02:15:16,480
Speaker 6: On Crazy One, very crazy one. Yeah, looking forward to that.

2672
02:15:16,680 --> 02:15:18,880
Speaker 6: And the merch is back by the way is. The

2673
02:15:18,920 --> 02:15:20,120
Speaker 6: holiday merch is back.

2674
02:15:20,240 --> 02:15:22,480
Speaker 5: So if you want our faces and stuff, pick it

2675
02:15:22,560 --> 02:15:24,240
Speaker 5: up breakopoints dot com.

2676
02:15:24,800 --> 02:15:25,280
Speaker 8: See you later,