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Speaker 1: Very pleased today to be joined by Dave Pacman, whose

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Speaker 1: show I had a great time being on and really

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Speaker 1: happy to reciprocate today. A really interesting voice out in America.

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Speaker 1: Huge audience of people listening to Dave Pacmann being educated,

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Speaker 1: informed and inspired on his show. One of the things

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Speaker 1: that you know, I wanted to ask you, is, you know,

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Speaker 1: in this era of complete and total collapse of trust

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Speaker 1: in media and institutions, how do you account for the

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Speaker 1: growth of your show for the things that you're doing.

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Speaker 2: I think it's two things.

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Speaker 3: I think number one, it's just a result of the

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Speaker 3: changing media landscape, people consuming content asynchronously, less of a

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Speaker 3: sort of leaning on twenty four hour news stations. And

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Speaker 3: I think I've benefited hugely just from timing essentially that

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Speaker 3: these technologies and high speed internet, mobile phones, which account

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Speaker 3: for probably seventy percent of the content bite by time

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Speaker 3: that's consumed that I produce. I think that's been helpful

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Speaker 3: to everybody in my space. In addition to that, it

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Speaker 3: does seem as though, at least for the people that

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Speaker 3: are in my audience, when the risks to the core

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Speaker 3: tenets of our democracy seem most at risk, there's a

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Speaker 3: desire to find whatever to those people seems like sanity,

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Speaker 3: seems like someone who just is going to support political

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Speaker 3: differences aside some of the basics that the country is

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Speaker 3: funded on. And so I think that without question, the

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Speaker 3: threats to our democracy that go back to the Trump

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Speaker 3: term and obviously January sixth, have made people seek out, okay,

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Speaker 3: minor political differences aside, who can I count on that

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Speaker 3: no matter matter what, are going to support some of

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Speaker 3: these basics that seemed sacred at one point, And that's

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Speaker 3: the sort of environment I try to create.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's all those things.

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Speaker 1: When you look at Trump, tell me the threat that

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Speaker 1: you think he poses. And what I mean by that

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Speaker 1: is I have a Canadian wife. I've been very outspoken

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Speaker 1: about Donald Trump, and I was talking to somebody who

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Speaker 1: would be recognized in the country as a very very

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Speaker 1: prominent commentator has been for a long time, would be recognizable,

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Speaker 1: and he made a comment. It wasn't a joke, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't dark humor. It was pondering his personal situation with

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Speaker 1: regard to the probability of political reprisal and prisonment. Who

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Speaker 1: knows what if Trump is to be taken literally and seriously,

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Speaker 1: this person would certainly, as would I, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: be on a list of people he wants reprisals about.

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Speaker 1: I mean, after after the last election, after the Lincoln Project,

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Speaker 1: my involvement ended, there were millions of dollars of flyers

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Speaker 1: that were distributed, millions of dollars of cost to them

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Speaker 1: calling me a pedophile in all the adjacent zip codes.

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Speaker 1: That's harassment. Using the power of the state is something different.

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Speaker 1: But I but I say to my Canadian wife, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we ponder this would would and it's and it's and

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Speaker 1: it's flabbergasting to to me to even to think this.

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Speaker 1: But because I've been so outspoken against Trump, would I

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Speaker 1: have to leave the country? You know? Is there going

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Speaker 1: to be an American who asked for political asylum in

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Speaker 1: Canada because of Donald Trump if he comes back to power.

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Speaker 1: And when you talk about this stuff at some level,

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Speaker 1: when I hear this coming out of my mouth, I

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Speaker 1: think I sound batshit crazy, uh in the United States.

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Speaker 1: But there's a big part of me that that's saying

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Speaker 1: to that voice, No, this is plainly played out on

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Speaker 1: a seven year basis a lot like you thought it would.

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Speaker 1: And we're at a very dangerous moment. And and and

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Speaker 1: I'm one of the questions I've been like most looking

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Speaker 1: forward to asking you is this one. I mean, how

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Speaker 1: do how do you see danger? Right in this, in this,

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Speaker 1: in this moment, grow closer? Uh, steady at a distance? Real?

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Speaker 1: How do you? How do you see that? Well?

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Speaker 3: In terms of the danger, there's all the things that

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Speaker 3: have been said many times, including the ones you and

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Speaker 3: I spoke about when you were a guest on my

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Speaker 3: show show. When it comes to the attacks on media,

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Speaker 3: the weaponization of government against political opponents, threats to journals.

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Speaker 2: There's all the things you're talking about a suit.

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Speaker 3: I obviously believe all of those things. And the additional

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Speaker 3: layer I've been thinking about lately relates to what Hillary

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Speaker 3: Clinton said. It was either last week or the week before.

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Speaker 3: Many criticized her the idea that this is a cult

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Speaker 3: that needs to be deprogrammed. There's this question of how

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Speaker 3: far does the cult go? Does the cult outlive its

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Speaker 3: own leader? What are the circumstances in which the Republican

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Speaker 3: Party maybe can get back to what it was at

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Speaker 3: one point in the past, which I think there's an

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Speaker 3: important disagreement among the left about these accelerationist sort of debates.

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Speaker 3: Is the left better off with the craziest and most

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Speaker 3: dangerous possible person because they will ultimately fail and then

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Speaker 3: it will make our side look that much more sane and.

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Speaker 2: Then we can improve things.

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Speaker 3: Or are we the left better off with people like

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Speaker 3: Arnold Schwarzenegger Romney representing the right, who are less crazy,

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Speaker 3: arguably more effective, but sane people that we can deal with.

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Speaker 3: I tend to be in.

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Speaker 2: The latter group.

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Speaker 3: I've never bought into the accelerationist ideas part of it

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Speaker 3: is historical that some of the greatest advancements for my

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Speaker 3: political movement have come incrementally the progressive era of the

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Speaker 3: late nineteenth and early twentieth century, the New Deal era,

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Speaker 3: the Civil Rights era. So for me, the accelerationism has

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Speaker 3: never seemed like the way to go. So where that

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Speaker 3: gets me is at some point, I mean, Trump's almost eighty,

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Speaker 3: Maybe he wins and gets four more years, maybe he doesn't.

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Speaker 3: But what happens after that point? And when I see

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Speaker 3: the interviews that my correspondents.

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Speaker 2: Are doing with some of these people.

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Speaker 3: They seem to be true believers to the degree that

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Speaker 3: I don't even know that it ends with Trump's whatever death,

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Speaker 3: the end of his political career.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what it is.

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Speaker 3: And so that's the layer that's scariest for me, which

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Speaker 3: is what does the cult do post Trump?

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Speaker 1: Let me talk about that and then we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: some of the things we're seeing on the on the

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Speaker 1: left right now play play out with regard to Israel

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Speaker 1: and Hamas and some of the fractures inside the Democratic Conference.

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Speaker 1: But yep, you and I agree that, and I just

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Speaker 1: want to just stipulate to this, make sure there's no disagreement.

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Speaker 1: If there is, it's fine, we'll just talk about it.

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Speaker 1: But for the purposes of being aligned, I think you

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Speaker 1: and I absolutely agree that MAGA is a minority faction

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Speaker 1: in the country that has the possibility to take power

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Speaker 1: and a coalition with apathy, That it's an autocratic faction,

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Speaker 1: that it is fascistic in character in nature, that it's dangerous,

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Speaker 1: and that it's ascended at some level, that it's spreading

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Speaker 1: what I would say to you, I mean, the answer

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Speaker 1: to your question is, Jim Jordan, is what the future

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Speaker 1: of this looks like? Right? That's what the metastasis is,

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Speaker 1: and it has rendered the third oldest political party in

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Speaker 1: the world, lock Stock and Barrel controlled by Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: and these people into a nunhouse and in a two

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Speaker 1: party system, you need two wings on the plane proverbially,

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Speaker 1: so to speak. In all of the great achievements that

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Speaker 1: you talked about, all of them required bipartisan cooperation. You have.

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Speaker 1: You know, one of the great heroes in the in

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Speaker 1: the country's history was the Republican governor of New Hampshire

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Speaker 1: who was one of FDR's most new dealers, John Wynning,

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Speaker 1: who goes on to become the US Ambassador of the

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Speaker 1: UK during the you know, during the Second World War.

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Speaker 1: You look at Arnold Schwarzenegger, who I look for. You know,

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Speaker 1: Arnold Schwarzenegger, Republican governor of California, has delivered the most

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Speaker 1: significant environmental achievement of the twenty first century is a

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Speaker 1: matter of policy, and that was California's Greenhouse Gas Reduction Act,

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Speaker 1: the first major global warming legislation of the country AB

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Speaker 1: thirty two. You know, So that's the you know, that's

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Speaker 1: the question at hand, right is you know, the ability

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Speaker 1: to look at the country as Americans and say, hey,

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Speaker 1: it's the idea of the country that's being challenged here.

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Speaker 1: You know, not a dispute over not a dispute over policies,

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Speaker 1: and I guess, how do you evaluate how the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party's leadership is doing framing that, you know, framing that

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Speaker 1: message right now? I mean, you have a lot of polls, incredibly,

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Speaker 1: you know, three years on in a in a two

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Speaker 1: team league where the people were talking about here party

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Speaker 1: of Marjorie Taylor Green, Lauren Bober, Josh Holly, Ted Bruz

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Speaker 1: and Donald Trump are ahead.

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Speaker 3: A couple different thoughts on this, I mean it's not sufficient,

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Speaker 3: but I think it is necessary to mention that there

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Speaker 3: is a material change to the texture of political debate

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Speaker 3: since the Trump era, wherein it actually doesn't matter what

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Speaker 3: Biden and Democrats do, they're starting with an even bigger

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Speaker 3: deficit than for example, George W. Bush did among Democrats

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Speaker 3: before he did. Anything like that happened under Bush, where

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Speaker 3: there was a contingent of Democrats who would just say,

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Speaker 3: no matter what, I don't approve of what the guy's doing,

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Speaker 3: that I don't care what the facts are. Group is

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Speaker 3: bigger than ever right now. So but that it's too

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Speaker 3: simple to just say that's all that's going on. It

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Speaker 3: is absolutely the case that even many Democrats don't know

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Speaker 3: about some of the achievements of Joe Biden. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'm starting to think about a segment for my show.

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Speaker 3: I don't know exactly what shape it'll take, but something

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Speaker 3: along the lines of, is Joe Biden the best Democratic

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Speaker 3: president of my lifetime? By achievements, I mean a lot

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Speaker 3: of the things that even I didn't think he would do.

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Speaker 3: He's forgiven more student loan debt than any president in

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Speaker 3: history by number of dollars, chipsacked inflation Reduction Act. You

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Speaker 3: don't have to like all this stuff, but from the

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Speaker 3: point of view of achievements, this guy's gotten, with a

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Speaker 3: divided Congress, a shocking amount of stuff done. I agree

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Speaker 3: with having gotten out of Afghanistan. It was a mess.

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Speaker 3: It would have been a mess if Trump did it too.

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Speaker 3: There's all of these things, and many Democrats have trouble,

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Speaker 3: and I'm not a Democrat, but I'm on the left,

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Speaker 3: have trouble naming any of these things or even saying, well,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, the economy is like kind of okay, maybe,

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Speaker 3: but it's not even really that great. So I think

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Speaker 3: you have to blame the Democratic Party for that to

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Speaker 3: some degree. Maybe corporate media, uh take some responsibility for that.

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Speaker 3: And there's a there's a real disconnect happening there.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to analyze the poll, the accumulation of all

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Speaker 1: the polls out there. Someone who's been around the track

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Speaker 1: and a couple of presidential campaigns. We were sitting around

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Speaker 1: in a meeting, and in a political meeting, right, there

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Speaker 1: are people around that table who have a lot of

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Speaker 1: different kind of views on policy and everything else. But

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Speaker 1: from a campaign perspective, right, a final campaign is not

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Speaker 1: a debating society. It's a it's trying to accomplish a goal.

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Speaker 1: It has a it has a broad amount of people

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Speaker 1: at the table. But but but ideally, you want to

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Speaker 1: be able to look at a set of facts right

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Speaker 1: in a condition and say what we're gonna do about it.

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Speaker 1: So I'll give you a perfect example. George W. Bush

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Speaker 1: Uh as someone you know, who knew him, You watch him.

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Speaker 1: Anybody who looks at George W. Bush and he's like,

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Speaker 1: that guy is stupid. I've always regarded as the mark

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Speaker 1: of stupidity is the person who says that got that

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Speaker 1: out loud. Right. He's not a dumb guy, by like

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Speaker 1: any stretch of the imagination, and neither was Ronald Reagan. Right,

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Speaker 1: I think their writing and everything else proves. And I

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Speaker 1: understand the politics of it. And there was a cohort

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Speaker 1: of the population right that these guys, these are dumb guys.

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Speaker 1: Neither one of those campaigns, and I was part of

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Speaker 1: one of them, ran a campaign trying to assert George

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Speaker 1: Bush was the smartest guy in the country. He's a

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Speaker 1: genius in fact. And so I look at the Biden campaign.

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Speaker 1: The first thing I see is they say that he's

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Speaker 1: not old, he's the wisest guy in the land. And

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Speaker 1: then I look at the polling. It's not what people believe.

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Speaker 1: They have deep, deep worry about this. And so there's that.

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Speaker 1: And so there are two things the American people are

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Speaker 1: constantly told. The first is that the country is hopelessly

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Speaker 1: and evenly divided. In fact, about eighty percent of the

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Speaker 1: country broad principles, agrees on solutions demmigration, guns, abortion, even

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Speaker 1: bigger numbers, broad dissatisfaction with healthcare industry, insurance companies, lots

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Speaker 1: of room for common ground, And they're told over and

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Speaker 1: over again countries right down the middle. Now eighty of

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Speaker 1: the country is saying we don't want the Trump and

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Speaker 1: Biden rematch. Don't want it, and so there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of crossover in that from left to right, tall to short,

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Speaker 1: you know, skinny, skinny to heavy right, a lot of

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Speaker 1: cross section of America in that the two political parties,

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Speaker 1: as institutions that were told never agree on anything. Well

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Speaker 1: as an observer sitting out here in California today, they

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Speaker 1: agree on something, right, I mean they agree on is

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Speaker 1: in a duopoly structure, Right, you're gonna get what you

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Speaker 1: get and you're gonna like it. And so here we

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Speaker 1: sit in October, Trump slightly ahead eighty percent of the

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Speaker 1: country saying we don't want it, eighty percent of the

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Speaker 1: Republicans on the stage like autonomatons, right, saying to a

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Speaker 1: question right after they condemned the guy for the insurrection,

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Speaker 1: but yes, we'd be for him forever, no matter what's

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Speaker 1: if he's the nominee. What Joe Scarborough said, like on

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Speaker 1: a show, it was one hundred percent true, right, that

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Speaker 1: every single Democrat who comes on that show when the

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Speaker 1: camera like goes off there, like I'm really worried about

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Speaker 1: Biden's age, right, and I've been in this meeting with

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Speaker 1: him and this happened or this happened or that happened.

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Speaker 1: But when the camera liight goes on, it's all shut out.

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Speaker 1: And I just mentioned that because I'm old enough to

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Speaker 1: have been sitting watching that exact same thing happen in

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Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, when I was sitting with all the Republicans

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Speaker 1: and so like, there was a time when every Republican

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Speaker 1: in America had the position I have on Trump. We

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Speaker 1: all had it. When it ended, there were like ten

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Speaker 1: of us left right right, there were ten of us left.

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Speaker 1: So I look at that right now, and I want

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Speaker 1: what is your reaction to that? Right, this idea, this

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Speaker 1: belligerence in the political class that you know, someone talks

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Speaker 1: about primary ing Biden, challenging Biden, right, credible thing. It's

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Speaker 1: not just a dance that goes nuts, right, It's it's

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Speaker 1: MSNBC that goes nuts. Right, It's it's across the board.

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Speaker 1: And I just what is the disconnect between the political

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Speaker 1: and media elite? And I hate to use the elite

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Speaker 1: because it's but what's the disconnect here between the country

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Speaker 1: and the people broadcasting from DC and New York as

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Speaker 1: you see it? Because it is profound.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think there's a few different interesting things to

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Speaker 3: talk about here. And one of the elements of this

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Speaker 3: that isn't mentioned in the polls that I've seen, which

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Speaker 3: would be even if you think Biden's too old, are

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Speaker 3: you still going to vote for him if he's on

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Speaker 3: the ballot and the alternative is Trumper DeSantis? And I

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Speaker 3: believe the answer is overwhelmingly the answer is yes. So

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Speaker 3: you know, I, as I've talked about with my audience,

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Speaker 3: I don't have any For me, it is yeah.

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Speaker 1: Right for me, it is right. I mean he could

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Speaker 1: be in and he could be in a liquid oxygen.

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Speaker 4: Right, I mean, well, so I think I think what

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Speaker 4: that gets us to is I would love to move

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Speaker 4: to the next generation of leaders and have someone more

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Speaker 4: energetic I've talked about, not necessarily on all policy, but

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Speaker 4: in terms of style and ruthlessness in dealing with some.

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Speaker 2: Of these crazies.

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Speaker 3: I like Gavin Newsom's approach. I like Pete boudha Jeedge.

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Speaker 3: There's a bunch of different people that I think would

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Speaker 3: be from a from an optics perspective, way way way better.

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Speaker 3: And so do I think Biden's too old? But in

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Speaker 3: some sense by the letter of the question, I guess

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Speaker 3: I do. But obviously I'm voting for him, and so

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Speaker 3: I don't know it's if it's so much about a disconnect.

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Speaker 3: I think corporate center left media isn't willing to just

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Speaker 3: say what I'm saying, which is, yes, this is true,

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Speaker 3: and we're still better off with Biden, and so in

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Speaker 3: order to keep up a certain appearance, they will just

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Speaker 3: say and the Democrats will just say he's not too old,

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Speaker 3: which is almost like a short cut to he's too old,

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Speaker 3: but we're still going to vote for him because it's

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Speaker 3: the better option. I'm more comfortable saying it the way

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Speaker 3: I see it. I think most of my audience is

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Speaker 3: kind of on the same page. Right by the way,

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Speaker 3: And one of the things, if I can just quickly add,

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you've seen the actuarial analyses of

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Speaker 3: Trump and Biden. I mean, Biden's a couple years older,

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Speaker 3: but statistically he's going to live longer because he's not

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Speaker 3: obese and he exercises and whatnot. So I think if

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Speaker 3: we only want to care about who's likely to survive,

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Speaker 3: I think it's a crazy conversation.

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Speaker 2: But the math is on the side of Joe Biden.

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Speaker 1: I shure gram with people with this when this subject

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Speaker 1: comes up, on how long Trump's going to live for it.

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Speaker 1: And I say, my over under on this is about

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Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty five, right, he'll be He'll be

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Speaker 1: eating four big macs a day, dividing America well into

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Speaker 1: his one hundred and naughts. I hope not, but but

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Speaker 1: I but I do worry about it. Let me let

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Speaker 1: me turn away from the Republican craziness for for a minute.

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Speaker 1: And and I want to talk to you, as a

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Speaker 1: progressive about about a couple of things that that are

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Speaker 1: never talked about on MSNBC and and every and everything else.

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Speaker 1: If you watch Fox News for any length of time,

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Speaker 1: what you appreciate is that the dishonesty is epic. The

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Speaker 1: propaganda is effective. It has been generally unresponded to over

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Speaker 1: the case of many years. But the programming doesn't run

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Speaker 1: against Joe Biden, per se. It runs against the most

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Speaker 1: extreme instances of whatever you want to call it on

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Speaker 1: the far left. So Fox is running against the San

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Speaker 1: Francisco District Attorney. Right, that's their image of America. And

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Speaker 1: I've talked to people, I mean, who genuinely believe right.

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Speaker 1: Portland has gone. It's gone. Right, It's like Nagasaki Hiroshima, Right,

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Speaker 1: it was burned in the Black Lives Matter is a

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Speaker 1: nice city. It's gone. It's been gone for years. It's

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Speaker 1: gone now. I've lived in California on four different stints,

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Speaker 1: and I lived in San Francisco and was in and

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Speaker 1: out of San Francisco at times all the time when

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Speaker 1: Willie Brown and Gaven Newsom were to mayor. And I'm

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Speaker 1: going to say this about Gaven Newsom right, who I've

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Speaker 1: known for a long time, and I like Gavin was

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Speaker 1: a great mayor, and so it was Willy Brown as

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Speaker 1: San Francisco did not look in any way, shape or

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Speaker 1: form then like it does today. And I think that

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Speaker 1: Gavin Newsome is unimpeachable with regard to his progressive credentials

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Speaker 1: and in a historic way, whether it's gay marriage or

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Speaker 1: another or things. I think he's pragmatic. I don't think

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Speaker 1: being progressive and pragmatic or in conflict with each other whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: But people want law in order. And when you look

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Speaker 1: at Los Angeles, you look at San Francisco, it is

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Speaker 1: hard not to look and conclude are things falling apart?

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Speaker 1: What's happening here in all of this? Politically, question who

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Speaker 1: would accruse to the benefit of we will never be

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Speaker 1: taken over in this country politically through an election by

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Speaker 1: some far left cabal. We will we will be a

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Speaker 1: fascist country long long, long, long before that could that

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Speaker 1: could ever conceivably happen in the in the United States.

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Speaker 1: But when you look at the at that reality that

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Speaker 1: I just went through, Mayor of San Francisco District Attorney,

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Speaker 1: and then you look at the images on elite campuses

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Speaker 1: right in a country where sixty percent of you know,

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Speaker 1: the population is living paycheck to paycheck, forty percent don't

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Speaker 1: have four hundred dollars, and you're looking at these Harvard

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Speaker 1: students out right in what what a lot of Americans

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Speaker 1: view as a pro Hamas rally right in the immediate aftermath,

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Speaker 1: right before the Israeli strikes from back. React to that

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Speaker 1: because politically, that a resurgent, angry left manifesting itself politically

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Speaker 1: helps only one person on the ballot in this election.

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Speaker 1: And they have a right to do it. Everyone has

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Speaker 1: a right to participate in America. Say whatever. But I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering how you see that now, because that fissure on

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Speaker 1: the left has been one dimensional on the crime piece

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Speaker 1: out of the cities, and now there's a second element

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Speaker 1: to it, and there's a fracture on this in the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Conference.

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Speaker 3: Well, listen, I am at odds with a contingent of

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Speaker 3: my audience and a significant contingent.

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Speaker 2: On the left of this issue.

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Speaker 3: And it's since this Hamos terrorist attack happened it's only

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Speaker 3: become more pronounced.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: My view on this issue is that, I mean, forget

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Speaker 3: about pro Hamas. I mean, it's a terrorist group that

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Speaker 3: committed a terrorist attack.

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Speaker 2: Period.

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Speaker 3: We can talk about decolonialization, we can talk about the blockade,

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Speaker 3: we can talk about stopping water and food settlements. I'm

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Speaker 3: up for talking about all of it, but anything short.

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Speaker 2: Of this was a terrorist attack.

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Speaker 3: They were targeting civilians, women, children, etc. And as progressives,

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Speaker 3: there can't be anything other than a full denouncing of that.

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Speaker 3: That already puts me at odds with a component of

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Speaker 3: the people on the left. Now, very quickly the emails

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Speaker 3: start coming in, David, you're biased on this issue because

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Speaker 3: you're Jewish. You're just not the right person to comment

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Speaker 3: on this because you're Jewish, which I am quick to

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Speaker 3: remind my audience. You know, that's the argument the right

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Speaker 3: used against us when we were.

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Speaker 2: Talking about gay rights.

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Speaker 3: Right wingers would email me and go, David, you can't

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Speaker 3: let of course the gay people want rights, they're biased,

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Speaker 3: we need they can't be involved in figuring out what

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Speaker 3: to do. Or during the Iraq War era of two

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Speaker 3: thousand and three, you oppose the war, did you serve,

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Speaker 3: Oh you didn't, Well, then you're just biased against the military.

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Speaker 2: It's the same argument, right.

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Speaker 3: So, and by the way, if the Jews are biased

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Speaker 3: on the issue, we've got to discount what any Palestinian

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Speaker 3: says because they're also biased on the issue. We've got

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Speaker 3: a discount what Americans say because America has a vague

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Speaker 3: So this stuff, to me is some of.

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Speaker 2: The worst of the left.

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Speaker 3: Now, I believe that I see this issue through a

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Speaker 3: progressive lens, and so my view is, I'm never going

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Speaker 3: to support authoritarian regimes or terrorist groups.

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Speaker 2: I'm never going to support groups.

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Speaker 3: That subjugate women or gays, or if you want to

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Speaker 3: leave the religion, what happens if you leave there. I'm

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Speaker 3: a progressive, so I'm never going to support these things. Now,

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Speaker 3: many on the left disagree and say, David, you're ignoring

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Speaker 3: the colonial history of Israel. You're ignoring this context, ignoring

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Speaker 3: that context. The truth is, if I were to summarize

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Speaker 3: my main gripe with this contingent of the left right

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Speaker 3: now without delving into details, it would be many on

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Speaker 3: left and right want to make the Israeli Palestinian conflict

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Speaker 3: a simple issue, and they will attack.

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Speaker 2: Those who want to bring new ones nuance.

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Speaker 3: The right will say, it's really simple, Israel's the only

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Speaker 3: democracy there. Everybody else are savages. They should bomb everybody.

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Speaker 3: The right will say, I'm sorry. The people on the

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Speaker 3: left will say, it's a really simple issue. Israel is

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Speaker 3: a unique, bloodthirsty oppressor that can do no right and

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Speaker 3: maybe doesn't even deserve to exist. I don't agree with

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Speaker 3: any of these simple views on the issue, and I'm

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Speaker 3: finding that people on both sides of the aisle are

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Speaker 3: very displeased with the perspective that I'm putting forward.

432
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: As somebody who does this and has a massive audience,

433
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: and you know, it's clear that you deeply respect the audience.

434
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: There's a trust relationship. It's a great show. And do

435
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: you find when you look at the comments and the

436
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: emails coming in, does it worry you? It certainly does

437
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: when I see some of mine. Sometimes it's the capacity

438
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: of people to hold competing contradictory or duance thoughts, and

439
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: the emotiveness of a reaction to an opposing point of

440
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: view or thought does it. It's something I find very

441
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: very concerning and is something that has changed incredibly over

442
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: the York of my adult life.

443
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm very troubled by it. And you know, I

444
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 3: showed my audience some of the messages I got over

445
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 3: the last week from people saying, you know, I'm canceling

446
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 3: my paid subscription because you're just so biased on this

447
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 3: issue of hamas and the idea of bias really means

448
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 3: I have an opinion you don't like.

449
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 2: We all have biases. These are opinion shows. By definition,

450
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: it's all bias.

451
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 3: None of us are claiming to be doing reporting here,

452
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 3: and it's.

453
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 2: Not unique, right.

454
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 3: I mean, I know that my audience and I sometimes

455
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 3: disagree about, for example, GMO foods. I've seen no good

456
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 3: evidence that GMO foods are unhealthy for humans to consume. Yes,

457
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 3: if they're GMO in order to cover them in pesticides,

458
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 3: the pesticides can be bad. But I just don't see

459
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 3: any evidence that GMO is unhealthy. Some people in my

460
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 3: audience disagree. They say it's bad for you. On nuclear

461
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 3: Many in my audience are reflexively against nuclear power, like

462
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 3: as a bridge to renewables, because they think of the

463
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 3: safety record of the seventies. And I know a little

464
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 3: bit about how new nuclear would be built, and I

465
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 3: don't think there's a safety issue, and I'd be open

466
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 3: to doing that as.

467
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 2: A bridge to renewables.

468
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 3: Many in my audience disagree, but those disagreements don't have

469
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 3: the texture of I'm canceling my membership right now, that

470
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 3: me just saying, hey, you know, like, yes, it's when

471
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 3: any civilian dies, it's a tragedy. When any child dies,

472
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 3: it's a tragedy. But imagine if Israeli military was willing

473
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 3: to use human shields in the way that Hamas does,

474
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 3: what do you think with the death toll would be

475
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 3: in these situations Because there's not a moral equivalence in

476
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 3: some canceled I'm not even allowed to open that door.

477
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 3: And so it's very troubling. And at the end of

478
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 3: the day, I'm comfortable just disagreeing with people, being in

479
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 3: the room with people I disagree with and think, hey,

480
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 3: here's nine things we when we disagree with It sounds.

481
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: That doubt Hayford has gone without having the impulse to

482
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: kill them, I imagine, right for their lives and all

483
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: of these things. I've always had friends you know that,

484
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: you know, just have have ranged the political spectrum, I

485
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: mean from you know, you know, in my view, a

486
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: way out there far left right. You know, a couple

487
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: you know that you know, always been way out there

488
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: on the you know, on the right, and you know,

489
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: never been an issue. It's you know, to me, you know,

490
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: the line cross is when you deny the result of

491
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: an election. The entire society foundationally is built around we

492
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: apportioned power through elections. So I don't know how the

493
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: society continues when all of a sudden you have the

494
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: political leadership of one of the country's two parties decide

495
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 1: we're going to opt out of the foundational element of

496
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: the of the society.

497
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 3: The other things I think have been over the line

498
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 3: would be if somebody is just straight up like a

499
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 3: KKK anti semi, obviously I'm not going to have them

500
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 3: in my social circle. Yeah, but I think these are

501
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 3: sort of like reasonable limits.

502
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I mean, you know, I you know,

503
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: I got my I have a frank group that, like,

504
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: you know, you look at any given problem, right and

505
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: you know, you would have one guy who so you

506
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: know you need to spend a billion to spend sending

507
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: that problem. And then you got someone on the right

508
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: be like, no, I think at fifty dollars, right, But

509
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: what like maybe you meet in the middle somewhere. But

510
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: when you look at the reaction on it's just on

511
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: the campuses, the civilian casualties that will occur in Gaza,

512
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: the loss of life, it's no less impoortant than the

513
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: loss of an Israeli life. The loss of a Palestinian

514
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: child is no greater an offense in my view, in

515
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: the eyes of God, than the loss of an Israeli child.

516
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: The difference, indisputably is that the Israeli children killed in

517
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: October seventh were murdered and the Palestinian children who will

518
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: suffer and die will die in a war that came

519
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: as a result of an act of terror and murder

520
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: that was state sponsored by the Iranian regime full stop.

521
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: And then there's an additional context. This was a pogrom.

522
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: What is a pod ron? Why are pogroms in port

523
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: And I suspect that those Harvard students in the most

524
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 1: privileged cocoon that you can imagine in the country, don't know,

525
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: haven't been taught, they don't know a lot about the Holocaust,

526
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: they don't understand what it means for Jews to hide defenseless,

527
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: waiting to be killed in that matter, and the repetition

528
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 1: of that through history, and then the mass cheering globally

529
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: for a savagery that is written about in the Jerusalem

530
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: Post in terms of what are you looking at here?

531
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: If you've been in a war zone, you've seen death

532
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: in a war zone, it's a horrible thing. But what

533
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: was this and that this according to some of the eyewitnesses,

534
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: it's probably comparable to what happened in Rwanda, was the

535
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: level of butchery and the level of savagery. Progressivism historically

536
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: in this country, which misunderstood, has not been a democratic

537
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: party vessel in both parties. Teddy Roosevelt one of the

538
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 1: great progressives. But progressivism was steeped in a morality, an optimism,

539
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: a belief of inclusion. Do you view this as an

540
00:35:54,719 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: infection a cancer? Because when you have people cheering for

541
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: the savage butchering of babies before there's any type of reprisal,

542
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: is their first instinct? What is that and what it

543
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: is to me is anti semitism, obviously, And and I

544
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: and I really mean this, right, and I and I

545
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 1: I was the one thing I would say Trump did good, Right,

546
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: I always have this question. I've never said this out loud.

547
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: It was it did give me one thing Trump did

548
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: did did did a good job at it. And there

549
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: is one thing I think Trump did a good job

550
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 1: with the space program. And I'm a space program guy, right,

551
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 1: But you know, I've kind of changed my tune over

552
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks because we go to Mars.

553
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: We're going on Elon Musk rocket, which means probably our

554
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: first export off the Earth is going to be anti Semitism,

555
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 1: which we should probably just keep here, right since it's

556
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: right like kind of the first like sign of the

557
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: first hatred, and we're not ready to get it. And

558
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: I just want to ask you, you know, I've been

559
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: I'm a very outspoken, you know, as a as a Republican,

560
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 1: former Republican on the right about all of this. You know,

561
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: how do you think about which I think needs to

562
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 1: be confronted, is the baseline of immorality, That there's some

563
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:40,399
Speaker 1: group dynamic, some thread across these universities that are very

564
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: specific in character where there's some sort of significant explosion

565
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: of dogma grounded in anti semitism after unfathomable violence, they're

566
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 1: out cheeriot. I mean, can you imagine if there was

567
00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: a Prosis rally like five years ago and I just

568
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: help me figure out what that is? And as a progressive, yeah,

569
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: what are we gonna do about it?

570
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 2: What we're gonna do about it?

571
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: I don't know.

572
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 3: But the degree to which I mean, listen, I've been

573
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 3: whenever this comes up, I'm careful to point out that

574
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 3: I really do believe that we're talking about an extremely loud,

575
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 3: overrepresented group of the left. The reason I'm confident in

576
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 3: saying that is when I brought this issue to my audience,

577
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 3: you might wrongly think, looking at the comments on my videos,

578
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 3: et cetera, that the group you're describing is a huge

579
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 3: portion of my audience. Once I told my audience about

580
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 3: this and really started hearing from the people who they

581
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 3: just live their lives, They go to work or raise

582
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 3: their kids, They listen to my show, and they don't

583
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 3: feel the need to write me all the time. I

584
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 3: heard a day from a deluge of people who said, hey,

585
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 3: you know what, the stuff you're saying isn't even controversial

586
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 3: to me. I'm a progressive. Obviously, you're saying things that

587
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 3: make perfect sense. You're hearing disproportionately from a very loud group.

588
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 3: I think that that to a degree is true about

589
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 3: the college campuses, and also there are some real problems

590
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,919
Speaker 3: to be dealt with. You know, my younger half sister

591
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 3: is in college now, and I'm not going to say

592
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 3: where she goes to school, but at where she goes

593
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 3: to school, there is a mandatory fee for an on

594
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 3: campus uh Arab American Muslim group that immediately demonstrated in

595
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 3: favor not of the killing of children, but immediately felt

596
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 3: that after this terrorist attack by Hamas was the time

597
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 3: to come out and say we're decolonializing, we're moving closer.

598
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 3: And the on campus Jewish group, the Hillel group, doesn't

599
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 3: get any funding from everybody. It's listen, if you want

600
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 3: to donate to Hilll, you can, and you can take

601
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 3: a guess, you know which which group is getting the

602
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 3: appropriate amount of funding despite the controversial actions that they're

603
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 3: taking on campus. That that sort of stuff is like

604
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 3: a structural problem in my mind, and what I think

605
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 3: it comes down to to a great degree is that

606
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 3: Jews in the US you have to fight to explain

607
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 3: to people that it's a historically marginalized minority group because

608
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 3: of many of the tropes about conspiracies to control banking

609
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 3: in Hollywood and the sort of stuff that's.

610
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: Become part of the narrative.

611
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 3: And you're kind of pushing a boulder up a hill,

612
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 3: you're swimming against the current. We saw this with the

613
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 3: Women's March, where there was a resistance to having Jewish

614
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 3: women on the board because they weren't marginalized enough.

615
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 2: They were privileged in modern.

616
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 3: America twenty twenty, twenty seventeen, or whatever year it was.

617
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 3: So I think it's a combination of lack of information,

618
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 3: lack of historical knowledge as you point out, and some

619
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 3: successful movements that have worked the lot on these lines

620
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:01,439
Speaker 3: to convince people.

621
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 1: When you when you when you look at the next

622
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five years in American life, something's going to

623
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: give here. And I'll use for data points. So the

624
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: Pentagon cannot pass an audit, it's too big to audit.

625
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: And that being the case, what it would it means

626
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: substantially right, And this is the largest kind of just

627
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: you know, part of the budget. A non entitlement is

628
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: we don't know where things are, We don't know what

629
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 1: things cost. We don't know why things are where they are,

630
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: why they cost what they did. We just it's it's on.

631
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: It's unmanageable, and that's a that's a threat to national security.

632
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 1: There is no group of people that have been more

633
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: profligate with taxpayer money in all of the course of

634
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: human history than the Republican Congress and Republican presidents of

635
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 1: the of the most recent era, though they bear the

636
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 1: majority of the reason we're at thirty three trillion dollars

637
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: in debt as a as a country. You know, Democrats

638
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: have have some involvement on that. One question I have

639
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 1: for you, like, on that piece of it. Does that

640
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: worry you? There is a school thought that the size

641
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 1: of America's debt doesn't matter, it can grow infinitely. I've

642
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: never been in that school, but I'm also someone who

643
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: has been wrong in that the implication and the consequences

644
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 1: for the debt or something at this level that I

645
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 1: already thought would have happened. But like I've come to

646
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 1: the conclusion I'm not I'm not an economist, but I

647
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: but I have a I have a I have a

648
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: ideological point of view, so to speak, which is, there

649
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: will be a debt crisis ultimately, and when it happens,

650
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: it's poor people who will be the most dramatically affected

651
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: by it. And and so before I kind of go

652
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: into the back half of this question, does that does that?

653
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: Does government spending without really kind of strategy purpose profly it?

654
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 1: Does that? Does that bother you as a as a progressive?

655
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: Like boil your blood? Do you look at it through

656
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: a prism of when you mismat it's trillions of dollars

657
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 1: of resources, the people who get hurt by that, or

658
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: the people that you're trying to deliver a service to you?

659
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: How do you think about government inefficiency, spending, and debt

660
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: as a progressive? Before I kind of ask you the back.

661
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 3: Half of this question, I try to look at it

662
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 3: from as much of a data driven perspective as possible

663
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 3: and kind of take ideology aside I mean, ideologically, there

664
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 3: are certain activities that I want mediated through government. I

665
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 3: don't want private militaries. I think when it comes to

666
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 3: the military, I'm a socialist. When it comes to healthcare,

667
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 3: I would like to see more government involvement doesn't have

668
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 3: to be Medicare for all. I've seen successful models from

669
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 3: many different countries that have mixed systems or nonprofit systems. Okay,

670
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 3: but I'd like to see government more involved, either directly

671
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,720
Speaker 3: or through regulation in that area, and that involves spending,

672
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 3: et cetera. With regard to the debt, in the terms

673
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 3: of its raw numbers, number one one, the debt sort

674
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 3: of can keep going up in the sense that if

675
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 3: as a percentage of the size.

676
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 2: Of the country it's under control.

677
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 3: We can all understand how if you make ten grand

678
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 3: a year versus a million bucks a year, one hundred

679
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 3: thousand dollars debt represents a very different situation at the

680
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 3: individual level. So similarly, the debt can keep going up

681
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 3: if it remains a relatively stable proportion of GDP. You

682
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 3: can argue it's actually not really a problem as long

683
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 3: as we're not laid on payments and it doesn't become

684
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 3: a national security issue because of who the money is

685
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 3: owed to, etc. So simply as a mathematical reality, the

686
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 3: debt kind of can keep going up indefinitely. Within context

687
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:47,879
Speaker 3: in terms of why we are deficit spending. That's where

688
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,760
Speaker 3: I just look at the economic multiplier effect of different

689
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 3: government programs. You take something like food stamps and compare

690
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,800
Speaker 3: it to cutting taxes for the richest one percent, we

691
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 3: can assign an economic multiplier, meaning what is the likely

692
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 3: follow through effect of every dollar spent on food stamps

693
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 3: versus a dollar given to someone who doesn't need it

694
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 3: is just going to stick it in a bank account.

695
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,760
Speaker 3: And so I believe that you can do deficit spending

696
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 3: with a higher economic multiplier that is economically stimulative, and

697
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 3: that's not a problem to me. That's not scary to me.

698
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 1: So when you look at healthcare, and the back half

699
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: of the question is as a progressive whose basic argument

700
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: is I want government to provide more services in more

701
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 1: spaces to achieve an outcome that accrues to the public

702
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 1: good and to the national.

703
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:54,439
Speaker 3: Interest generally speaking, Yeah, I mean to say I want

704
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 3: the government doing more. I might want to change some

705
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,399
Speaker 3: of the things the government's doing rather than just say

706
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 3: add a whole bunch of stuff.

707
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think there are areas that are we

708
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 2: have an interest in.

709
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 3: Taking out of simply the market system and saying we're

710
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 3: going to affect them in some way.

711
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: So, so healthcare, you talked about very briefly, when you

712
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 1: see government involved in healthcare in a different role or

713
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,280
Speaker 1: increasing role, however you think about it from this moment,

714
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 1: do you want to seek government operating the healthcare system

715
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: or do you want to see government really assuming payment responsibilities?

716
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: Right in an economy where we have this crazy system

717
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: where in the end and it's too complicated to talk

718
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 1: about it at the time, we have left, but trust me, right,

719
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 1: like everyone watching, you all pay for this. Everybody pays right,

720
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:01,959
Speaker 1: We're ready all paying for this, right, So the notion

721
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 1: that a cost would be imposed on you that you're

722
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: not already paying with regard to healthcare has always been

723
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 1: on trip. Right, it's coming. So but I think, like

724
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 1: a lot of people hear you say that here a

725
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 1: progressive say that is say the government is going to

726
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 1: be between me and my doctor as opposed to government's

727
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: going to pay into a system in a way that

728
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 1: removes my economic anxiety that I break my leg I'm

729
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: going bankrupt, am I?

730
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 2: So here's the deal? What I would do.

731
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 3: This is so far from realistic in terms of the

732
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 3: direction that this country is going that what I would

733
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 3: do if I were to rebuild it to the ground

734
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 3: up is less relevant than the options that would be

735
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:54,240
Speaker 3: improvements on what we have now. There are countries, including

736
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 3: Argentina and many others. Every country has pros and cons

737
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 3: where the government does operate rate some hospitals, and then

738
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 3: there are also private hospitals, and you are entitled to

739
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 3: free Obviously, everybody's paying for it one way or the other,

740
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 3: whether it's through healthcare premiums or taxes or however it is.

741
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 2: You can go to the public hospitals.

742
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 3: You can also choose to go to private hospitals and

743
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,720
Speaker 3: pay out of pocket or get different insurance that covers

744
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 3: you at the private hospitals.

745
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 2: But what's the point of the whole thing.

746
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,720
Speaker 3: The point of the whole thing is everybody gets access

747
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 3: to something, regardless of ability to pay. In other countries,

748
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 3: it's not that the government is operating any health care facilities,

749
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,320
Speaker 3: but they are simply becoming a central insurance.

750
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:43,320
Speaker 2: It is not tied to employment.

751
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 3: If you do work, you do pay an additional tax.

752
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: If you don't work, well, then.

753
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 3: It's subsidized by those who do work, but it's not

754
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 3: tied to employment, and that's a very common model in

755
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 3: many countries as well. You could also look at a

756
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 3: model where everybody is required to get their own health insurance,

757
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 3: the health insurers are nonprofit and it is subsidized by

758
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 3: the government. I mean, all of these options I'm open to.

759
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 3: I've interviewed experts on the Singaporean system, which is different

760
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 3: and very interesting. Germany and Switzerland have different models. France is,

761
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:22,280
Speaker 3: like I believe, a nonprofit plus additional insurance. I'm really

762
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:26,760
Speaker 3: open to any system that will ensure no one falls

763
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 3: below the cracks and ends up using the emergency room

764
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 3: for primary care, never paying, and then we all pay

765
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 3: for it anyway. Nobody benefits from that. That's one priority.

766
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 3: And also, if it's possible, decreasing the cost to the

767
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:44,399
Speaker 3: end user as well.

768
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 1: So this here's my last here's my last question for you,

769
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: and I want to bring you back to something that

770
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 1: you said at the beginning when you were talking about

771
00:50:55,480 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: President Biden infrastructure legislation, some of the domestic policy achievements.

772
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,400
Speaker 1: I was hiking in Utah last week on a CCC

773
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: trail and there's a there's a road marker for it.

774
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,839
Speaker 1: It was made by men from New York and New Jersey, right,

775
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 1: And there's a New Jersey native right live in Utah.

776
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: You know, almost almost ninety years later, right, walking on

777
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: this chat trail, what an achievement? Rights, And there's academics

778
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 1: right that will debate, right, hey, was this successful or not?

779
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 1: Like as you're walking on the trail, right, that counts

780
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: as an element of success too. Right. So there's got

781
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: the twenty first century infrastructure of the country, like fifty

782
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: years from now when you look back, like who did that? Right,

783
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: Joe Biden did that? Right in the same way that

784
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: we look at the infrastructure like right now in the country,

785
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 1: drive on an interstate highway? Who did that? Dwight Eisenhber

786
00:51:53,880 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: did that? And enormously transformational pieces of legislation. I completely

787
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: believe that historic politically and psychologically. It's like the White House.

788
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: When I look at kind of the comments, there's this neediness.

789
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 1: It's like the campaign is in search of it. Thank

790
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,879
Speaker 1: you at a moment when the country's in a fuck

791
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: you state of mind. And secondly, everything that government can

792
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 1: do has to be built on a foundation of belief

793
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: that it can make things better, and right now trust

794
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 1: is so broken. So to me, it's like trying to

795
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 1: start a fire with wet Wood. The greatest progressive leader

796
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:03,399
Speaker 1: in American history, bar none was Franklin Roosevelt by way

797
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: of achievement and success. When times were tough in nineteen

798
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 1: thirty two, his campaign song was not everything sucks, it

799
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 1: was happy days are here again. How does a progressive

800
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 1: specifically talk to the country about rebuilding the trust necessary

801
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 1: to implement a progressive agenda, which inherently is built on

802
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: we can do something, and that's something is going to

803
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 1: make things better. How do you think about that as

804
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 1: somebody who I view as a real important voice communicating

805
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: to a new generation about some of the most important

806
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 1: ideas that have ever been put down by the mind

807
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 1: of humanity to paper. And this imperfect experiment is the

808
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 1: result of it. The political traditions that have emerged from

809
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 1: within it are as old as democracy and its concepts itself,

810
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:28,760
Speaker 1: the ideas of restraint versus the power of change, trying

811
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 1: to find that's societ, that societal harmony. But trust, to

812
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 1: me just seems so elemental. I wanted to ask you

813
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 1: that last question before I ask you to deliver your warning,

814
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: which I'm looking forward to.

815
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:46,320
Speaker 3: I mean, listen, I would probably go to folks like

816
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 3: you to figure out the right way to message this,

817
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 3: but just thinking off the top of my head. I

818
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 3: think the case I would try to make is I

819
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 3: understand the reason for the erosion, and trust anyone after

820
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 3: the last seven years would have a limited or non exist.

821
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 2: Amount of trust.

822
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 3: Here the historical successes of the movement I consider myself

823
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 3: part of I would talk about some of the ones

824
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 3: I mentioned earlier. We also don't need to convince anyone

825
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 3: in the sense that we already have the vast majority

826
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 3: of the public on our side, as you talked about earlier,

827
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 3: when it comes to so many of these issues, we've

828
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 3: got sixty seventy, sometimes eighty percent agreement already. What we

829
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:24,759
Speaker 3: need to do is every single one of us participate

830
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 3: in the system such that the elected officials in DC

831
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 3: actually represent our views rather than, as Princeton said, the

832
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 3: views of the wealthy end of corporations. If we can

833
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 3: do that, then we are going to start going in

834
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 3: a path where we can continue to have more of

835
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 3: these achievements.

836
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's the arc that I would

837
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 2: kind of try to establish.

838
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 1: Next time I talk to you. The thing I'd love

839
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 1: to talk about is the size and scale of corporations

840
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 1: in America in the twenty first century and how we

841
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: appropriately about breaking them up. But I I've run out

842
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: of time. It's been a great discussion. We've started a

843
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 1: new thing here where we ask our guests to deliver

844
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 1: a warning, oh boy, to the audience, and uh, here

845
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: you go.

846
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 3: A warning of just a general warning of any.

847
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 1: Kind a warning. There's a lot happening in the in

848
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: the world right now. And you know, what do you

849
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 1: wanna what do you want to say to you know,

850
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: people about any subject it's important for them to hear.

851
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 1: I'll give you two mon there's a great, great patriot,

852
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:45,360
Speaker 1: deeply knowledgeable, in a vital voice in America's political ecology

853
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 1: right now.

854
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 3: I think I'll give you my political and my non political.

855
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 2: The political is.

856
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 3: Really try to look at primary sources for whatever it

857
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 3: is that you're trying to figure out in the world.

858
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:03,439
Speaker 3: Primary source, whether it's books from people who were actually there,

859
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 3: whether it's original direct reporting from those on the ground,

860
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 3: whatever is, primary sources. Don't get sucked in beyond that.

861
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 3: Start with primary sources. And then number two a warning

862
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 3: that it's a really good idea to try to walk

863
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 3: ten thousand steps a day and eat thirty grams of

864
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 3: fiber a day. That's my health warning to everybody. Two

865
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 3: goods of good bits of advice I hope.

866
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 1: Day FACTA, thank you very much, great to be with

867
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 1: you today.

868
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 2: Really appreciate it.

869
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 1: Bet, thank you.