1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 2: When I think of the story of the lynching of 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 2: Timothy Coggins, I think of the story of segregation and 4 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 2: race in America, that this is a murder that happens 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 2: because a black man was talking to a white woman. 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 10 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 13 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 14 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is 15 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's 16 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: a deep dive into the story behind the stories. 17 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 3: So I'm Wesley Lowry w E. S l E. Y. 18 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 3: Lowry is l O w E R Y. Yeah, and 19 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 3: I'm just a journalist. 20 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: Wesley Lowry is more than just a journalist. He's a 21 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: fantastic storyteller and a Politzer Prize winning reporter, and Lowry 22 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: has written a painfully intimate portrait about a family searching 23 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,199 Speaker 1: for justice in rural Georgia decades after a young man 24 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: was murdered. 25 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 2: When I think of the Timothy Coggan's story, I think 26 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 2: of the failure of the government to procure justice for 27 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: Timothy Coggin's, a black man who's been victimized. And I 28 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 2: think of a story of a generational trauma that you 29 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: had family members who now decades later, were still harmed 30 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: by this crime committed against the Coggan's family, who now 31 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 2: were hauled into a court to see someone finally be 32 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 2: brought to justice, and meanwhile, the fa families of the 33 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 2: two men who are convicted of this themselves having to 34 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 2: grapple with what happens. I think of a story that 35 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: reminds us that our history isn't so far in the past. 36 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: I think often we have a sanitized understanding, or we 37 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 2: believe that the worst of our past is so far 38 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 2: behind us, and yet we still have people walking in 39 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: the streets today guilty of some of the most heinous 40 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 2: crimes ever committed in our country. Families still directly victimized 41 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: by those crimes, and law enforcement agencies that have still 42 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 2: failed to address them, in part because of the race 43 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: and backgrounds of the victims. 44 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: Let's just start with setting the scene. This is nineteen 45 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: eighty three, Griffin, Georgia. What are the people like in 46 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: this town? 47 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: So, Griffin, Georgia is rural Georgia. For folks who are 48 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 2: aware of the state of Georgia. If you start in 49 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 2: Atlanta and start driving in basically any direction, about forty 50 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 2: five minutes from there, you're in a place that's pretty rural, 51 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 2: very white, historically relatively poor kind of farming town. Not 52 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: nearly as diverse as the big cities. But as is 53 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 2: the case across most of the rural South, you've got 54 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 2: black communities and you've got white communities. 55 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: What were people doing for a living in nineteen eighty three? 56 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty three, Griffin was still a relatively poor place. Now, 57 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 2: this is a town where you would have had a 58 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 2: fair number of people who are working as hired hands, 59 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 2: be it working out in the fields, be it working odd. 60 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 3: Jobs hauling lumber. 61 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: That this was very much kind of an agricultural environment 62 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: in Griffin, As is always the case, in rural places 63 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 2: with agricultural economies, you have more well off people who 64 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 2: own the land being developed, and then you have the 65 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 2: people who are working for them. 66 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 3: So you see a lot of this. 67 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 2: There is a fair amount of relatively impoverished people who 68 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 2: are just kind of salt of the earth, school bus drivers. 69 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 2: And this was a relatively lower to lower middle class 70 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 2: socioeconomic town and city full of both poor white people 71 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: as well as poor Black people. 72 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: You know, what is their sort of story. The Coggin's 73 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: family story. 74 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 2: Big black family living in gryffin Georgia, not particularly well off, 75 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: but also not the poorest of the poor. One of 76 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 2: these large families with lots of cousins and aunts and uncles, 77 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 2: and no one's quite sure how everyone's related to each other, 78 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 2: but they're all related to each other and have lived 79 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 2: in Griffin for several generations. You know, Timothy is one 80 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 2: of the children at the time, right among the youngest 81 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: generation of the cogginses, and so he's got a number 82 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 2: of sisters, other cousins, and at the time he's about 83 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 2: twenty three years old, known widely around town as being 84 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 2: extremely outgoing, always out at the bars and the clubs, 85 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: with someone whose family knew would sometimes disappear for days 86 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: at a time, not because he disappeared, but because he 87 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 2: was crashing on someone's couch. Kind of a social butterfly 88 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 2: who was known very widely throughout town. 89 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: He was close with his family, with his mom obviously. 90 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly, I mean close with his family. 91 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: Was he working? What was he doing? 92 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: My understanding is that Timothy Coggins was working, you know, 93 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 2: kind of a set of odd jobs. Still a kid 94 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 2: in his kind of early twenties, So he was working 95 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 2: when when he could find work, wasn't when he when 96 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 2: he wasn't, and otherwise was just kind of living life 97 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 2: and enjoying himself. 98 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: So what happens when trouble starts to happen like layout 99 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: that key night. Whatever we think was the impetus for. 100 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 2: This, it's disputed what exactly the impetus was. But what 101 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 2: we know is that Timothy had been, among his kind 102 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: of dalliances, had been talking with a young white woman. 103 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 2: And that young white woman was the on again, off 104 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 2: again girlfriend of a man who who Timothy Coggans had 105 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: known loosely, possibly via drug deals or just a kind 106 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 2: of known from around town. You know, Tim's family and 107 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 2: some of his friends had warned him about this that 108 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: you know, this is nineteen eighty three, a time where 109 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 2: across lots of the country interracial relationships are becoming much. 110 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 3: More common place. 111 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 2: But in a lot of pockets of the country there 112 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 2: are still a lot of hostility. You know, tim Coggins 113 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 2: has been told this would be something that was okay 114 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: in Atlanta, but here in Griffin, gotta be really careful. 115 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 2: There had been a series of back and forths between 116 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 2: Timothy Coggins and Frankie Geppart, a man who worked in 117 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 2: the lumber yards and was kind of a regular in 118 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: one of the white trailer parks in Griffin, and they 119 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 2: had had a few kind of terse interactions, one around 120 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 2: what the Gap Parts would later describe as a drug. 121 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 3: Deal that went awry. Others around this question of. 122 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 2: Whether or not Timothy Coggins was carrying on with Frankie 123 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 2: Gabbart's girlfriend. And so that, to our knowledge now is 124 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: what kind of sets in motion the events that lead 125 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 2: to Timothy Coggins's death. 126 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: They were not keeping this secret, right, Timothy and Frankie 127 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,119 Speaker 1: Geppart's girlfriend at the beginning of this story really takes 128 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: place in a bar, club or some sort of establishment 129 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: in Griffin. 130 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 2: The story begins in a lot of ways in the 131 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: People's Choice, which was a popular club in Griffin. The club 132 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 2: and tell the People's Source was largely black, but on 133 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 2: occasion you would see white people in there as well, 134 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: particularly white women. According to the kind of understanding of 135 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 2: what would happened, Timothy had been seen dancing with and 136 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 2: carrying on with this woman. What exactly was going on 137 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 2: between them is unknown. Timothy Coggins isn't around to tell 138 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: us his story, and neither is this woman. We don't 139 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: have an extremely clear understanding of the extent to which 140 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 2: there even was a relationship between the two of them, 141 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: or was it the beginnings of one, was it something 142 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 2: fully developed, they just hung out a few times. Even 143 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 2: the suggestion that this might be going on was enough 144 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 2: to ultimately end up with a murder taking place. 145 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: So what happens. He's with this woman at the club 146 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: and they're dancing and they're getting some attention. 147 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 2: What we believe happened, now knowing everything of the story, 148 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 2: what prosecutors say happened, is that Frankie Geppart and his 149 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: brother in law show up at the club one night 150 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: asked to talk to Timothy Coggins. They pull him out 151 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 2: of the club and put him in a truck and 152 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 2: drive him off to a field where they more or 153 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: less beat and torture him, drag him from the back 154 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 2: of a truck, and then ultimately leave his body in 155 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: this field pretty severely mutilated. The thought here was that 156 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 2: this was a lynching that was carried out in very 157 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: personal terms because of the insults that Frankie Gapart and 158 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 2: Bill Moore, his brother in law, perceived at the idea 159 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 2: that this young black man would be flirting with would 160 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 2: be talking to a woman who they believe belonged to them. 161 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: Do you think that's the case or do you think 162 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: this was a little bit more of Gepart's contention that 163 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: it was more of a drug deal gone wrong. It 164 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: sounds like he was really stepping back from the racism. 165 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 1: Part of this is that, right. 166 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 2: You don't typically carve an X in someone's chest because 167 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 2: they ripped you off on some weed. Violent crimes that 168 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 2: are that brutal are typically done for personal reasons. 169 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: This is overkill. 170 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 2: Certainly, if he committed this crime, it seems very unlikely 171 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 2: that it would have been purely for. 172 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: Economic so he is dragged and then he's. 173 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 2: Dragged behind the truck, and what his body's found. There's 174 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 2: an ex similar to the Confederate battle flag that's been 175 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 2: carved into his chest. And so again, Timothy Coggins's body 176 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 2: has been pretty severely mutilated. This was not just a murder, 177 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: This was not just a shooting. This was something that 178 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: investigators who visited the crime scene and investigators who looked 179 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 2: at the evidence here saw something being remarkably personal, remarkably brutal, 180 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: and the type of killing that is meant to send 181 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 2: a message. 182 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: I remember reading about the story of James Bird Jasper, Texas, 183 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: and I'm from Texas, who is an older, gentleman black 184 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 1: who was dragged behind a truck I believe down a 185 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: road for quite a long time, and it was so brutal. 186 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 2: Our history includes no lack of examples of extremely brutal, 187 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 2: extremely personal crimes committed by white Americans when they believe 188 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 2: that Black Americans are stepping out of place, are stepping 189 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 2: out of wine, when a black man like Timothy Coggins 190 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 2: steps out of line when he does something that is 191 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 2: offensive to the white supremacist norms of the South, which 192 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 2: is that as a black man, he shouldn't be talking 193 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 2: to a white woman. They set out to show him 194 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 2: that he doesn't have the right to do that, and 195 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 2: his life is taken. A large percentage of the lynchings 196 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: of black men in our history have been specifically about 197 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 2: the suggestion that that black man has in some ways 198 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: had a sexual relationship with a white woman, be it 199 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 2: the accusation that there was a sexual assault, in many cases, 200 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 2: made up allegations, in other cases consensual relationships that are 201 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 2: then framed as such because in the white man's belief, 202 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 2: it's impossible for a white woman to have desired a 203 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 2: black man that way, So it must have been coercive, 204 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 2: it must have been an assault. And so again, what 205 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 2: we see with Timothy Coggins is frankly a remarkably unremarkable story. 206 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 3: It's what happens in our history time and time again. 207 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: So let's go back to the story. How is Timothy 208 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: discovered in nineteen eighty three. He has been brutalized, He's 209 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: been murdered. Remind me, where has he been left? How 210 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: do we find him? 211 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: So Timothy Coggins has been brutalized and his body in 212 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 2: a lot of ways torn to shreds, and he's been 213 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 2: left out in this field beneath this large tree that 214 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 2: was kind of colloquially known as the Hangings tree in town, 215 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 2: kind of out in the middle of nowhere between these 216 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: two fields, and a group of local residents, including a 217 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 2: young man, are out hunting and stumble across his body, Paul. 218 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 2: The police called the sheriff's office. Before long, the body 219 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 2: out there is identified as belonging to Timothy Cobbins. 220 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: The police go and talk to his family about this. 221 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: I'm assuming, I mean, how does this news spread across 222 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: this town. 223 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 2: They were having real difficulty identifying Timothy Cobbins. They weren't 224 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 2: sure who he was. I remember his sister telling me 225 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 2: that when she was first showed to photo by an 226 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 2: officer who had shown up to ask around as she 227 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 2: pretended not to recognize him, and she said, I don't 228 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 2: know who that is, but she knew immediately that it 229 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 2: was tim They identified tim as the person who was killed, 230 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 2: launched an investigation into who had killed him and why, 231 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 2: but pretty quickly closed that investigation and just kind of 232 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: moved on. 233 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: Well, let's go back just slightly. Why did his sister, 234 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: knowing that this was her brother. 235 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 2: Well, I think that very often, when we're confronted with 236 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: things that are difficult that we can't fathom, we deny them. 237 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 2: How often when a mother is told that their son 238 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: is killed, as she say no, no, no, that we 239 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: understand that to accept something as being true means it 240 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 2: is true, that it's happened, that we have to accept it. 241 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 2: And so, you know, my impression from my conversations were 242 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 2: that in those moments, Timothy's sister subconsciously just wanted a 243 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 2: few more minutes of not having to grapple with the truth. 244 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: And you have to think that this was their fear 245 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: knowing that he was out with this white woman. I'm 246 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: sure this was just something in their minds and think 247 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: was possible, but certainly was a possibility. 248 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 2: Look, I think it's every black family's sphere. There's always 249 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 2: been in this kind of concern. Certainly, you think in 250 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 2: this case, you know, given the fact that tim had 251 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 2: been talked to, had been warned, they've been having conversations 252 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 2: about it, this is certainly the type of thing they 253 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 2: feared could happen, not that he was doing anything wrong, 254 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 2: but that some other person would be offended by it 255 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 2: and would do something wrong. 256 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 3: To him. 257 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: Certainly, in cases of sexual assault, we talk about blaming 258 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: the victim, and that would be the case here too, 259 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: saying well, he shouldn't have gone out with a white woman. 260 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: He was sort of tempting the knowing that this is 261 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: a possibility that could happen. But that would be blaming 262 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: the victim. 263 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 3: I mean, timmy confence was murdered. 264 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 2: You know, there's not a legal justification because you slept 265 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 2: with someone who people don't want you to sleep with. 266 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: Man, by the way, I mean, we don't even know 267 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: and by the. 268 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 2: Way, we don't even know if he did that, right, Like, 269 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 2: it's not even this isn't even about a world where 270 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: we know for a fact that a thing had happened 271 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: or was happening. It was purely about in America, as 272 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 2: a black man, the idea that you would carry on 273 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 2: with or sleep with a white woman has always been 274 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: a thing that could get you killed. 275 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: Tell me about the investigation or the lack of it. 276 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 3: Well, there was almost no investigation. 277 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 2: Initially, the shriff's apartment locally made a few phone calls, 278 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 2: drove around, canvassed, but according to the records and what 279 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: we understand of them, after just about a week or 280 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 2: two the investigation was largely closed. Watched the frustration of 281 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 2: the Coggans family, which began receiving threats even as they 282 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 2: pressed for more investigation. 283 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: Tell me about the threats. What kind of threats? 284 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, Timothy Cogan's stepfather was a bus driver and he 285 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 2: had a decapitated dog left in the bus. There were 286 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 2: bricks thrown through the windows with notes saying well you're next, right. 287 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: There was essentially an intimidation campaign that was run. The 288 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 2: Coggans family had been pressuring the police to investigate this 289 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 2: and to get justice, and a message was sent very 290 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 2: clearly to them that they should drop this and leave 291 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 2: things alone. And so what ultimately did happen is that 292 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 2: the Sheriff's apartment largely closed the investigation without having interviewed 293 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 2: very many people and certainly without having gotten to the 294 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 2: bottom of this. And so for decades the murder of 295 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 2: Timothy Coggins sat unsolved. 296 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: Is this because people knew specifically that Frankie get Part 297 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: and Bill Moore were involved? Or was this the assumption 298 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: that one of the white residents of Griffin, Georgia was 299 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: involved and they didn't know who and it didn't really 300 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: matter because everybody needed to be protected. 301 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: Well, you know, we'll never know for sure what the 302 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: motivation for the investigators who didn't do their job. In 303 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 2: communities like Griffin, in times like nineteen eighty three, there 304 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 2: was an expectation among the black community that if they 305 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 2: were victimized, that the police would not take. 306 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 3: Those crimes particularly seriously. 307 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 2: How might that be compounded if the person believed to 308 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: have committed the crime was white, or friends or buddies 309 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 2: with the sheriffs investigating, or someone who was known around town. 310 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 2: All of those are factors that could then add into it. 311 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 3: You know. 312 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 2: Again, what's so difficult in case like this one is 313 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 2: all the things that will never know quite for sure. 314 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: So is the Coggin's family intimidated? Was it bricks through 315 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: the window, the decapitated dog? What is their reaction to 316 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: this closed investigation? 317 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 2: To them further solidifized what they already believed to be true, 318 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 2: which was that their brother had been targeted and killed 319 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 2: specifically for his race, and that now the people who 320 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 2: had done it were targeting them, telling them not to 321 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 2: apply any pressure to make sure that those who committed 322 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 2: this crime were not held accountable. And so again, I 323 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 2: think there was deeply frustrating for the Coggins family. All 324 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 2: of this in many ways was an exercise and a 325 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,239 Speaker 2: flexing of power. That we did what we did with impunity, 326 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: and we're going to continue doing that, and we're going 327 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 2: to remind you who has the power here, who's in 328 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: control here. 329 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: And these are the people who are standing next door 330 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: to them or standing right next to them at a 331 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: grocery store. These are the people who are serving them 332 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: food or own the gas station. It must have been 333 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: terrifying for them to not know and have to wonder. 334 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: So this case doesn't go cold. This is just shut 335 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: down completely as far as the sheriff's departments concerned in Griffin, Georgia, 336 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: this is done. It's closed, and that's it. 337 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 2: It was clear when these files were later reviewed that 338 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 2: there was very little, if any investigation done by the 339 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 2: sheriffs early on, that they did not put in a 340 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 2: good faith effort to figure out who would kill Timothy Coggins. 341 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 2: As the case file sat open. As it sat in 342 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 2: the cold cases file, it didn't seem like anyone else 343 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: put in much of an effort, even as other investigators 344 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 2: came back and tried to look at it. 345 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 3: There would be an interview done here at an interview 346 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 3: done there. 347 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: So if we're sticking with the chronology here, what happens next? 348 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: Is this a full almost forty years and then something happened? 349 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: I mean, how do we jump from nineteen eighty three 350 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: two weeks and we're done? 351 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 2: So just a few years ago the case landed on 352 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 2: the death of a state investigator. In the state of Georgia, 353 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 2: cold cases, especially for felonies murder, end up going to 354 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: the state, to the GBI, the Bureau of Investigation, the 355 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 2: state Bureau of Investigation, and their cold. 356 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 3: Cases get recycled. 357 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 2: They get cycled to different investigators every few months, with 358 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 2: the hope being that every unsolved case that we have 359 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 2: is constantly getting some level of fresh eyes. So this 360 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 2: case ends up landing on the desk of a new investigator, 361 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 2: a man named Jared Coleman, and as he starts looking 362 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: through these files, he realizes that there are a lot 363 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 2: of leads that haven't seemed to be addressed. That even 364 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: in the initial case file, it was clear that these 365 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 2: two men, Frankie gep Hart and Bill Moore, where people 366 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 2: who witnesses said they should talk to, and yet it 367 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 2: never seemed like they had been fully interviewed by police. 368 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 2: In the years since, there had been a number of 369 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 2: new witnesses who had come forward and said that at 370 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 2: some point Frankie Guppart had confessed to them of having 371 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 2: committed this murder. Jail house witnesses, snitches who were saying, Hey, 372 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: I'm incarcerated with this guy, and he's talking about how 373 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 2: he killed this kid in nineteen eighty three, and there 374 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 2: were notations in the file, but they were never fully done. 375 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 2: Agent Coleman goes, well, all right, let me try to 376 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 2: interview Frankie Geppart and Bill Moore. And when he gets 377 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 2: to them, initially they deny having ever even heard of 378 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: the murder of Timothy Coggins, which is something that raises 379 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 2: a big red flag for him. 380 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 3: This is a small rural. 381 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,719 Speaker 2: Community that Timothy Coggins's murder in nineteen eighty three had 382 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 2: been the talk of the town for years. The idea 383 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,239 Speaker 2: that these two men who had been here forever, who 384 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: lived just up the street from where this murder took place, 385 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 2: it never quite passed the smell test. And so because 386 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 2: of that, Agent Coleman began applying more pressure, doing more 387 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: interviews and ultimately tracking down more people. 388 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: Now, let's pause. So Geppart was in prison at some point, 389 00:19:59,320 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: is that right? 390 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 2: He was a person At many points he was what 391 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 2: they called a frequent flyer in. 392 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 3: The local courthouse. 393 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 2: Okay, he get arrested for a drunken brawl, or for 394 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 2: sectually assaulting someone at a party, or for mouthing off 395 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 2: in a cop or you know, he was someone who 396 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 2: had a very long set of interactions with law enforcement, 397 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: and so at various junctures he was incarcerated, be it 398 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 2: for a month or for a year, for six weeks, 399 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 2: or in jail awaiting trial for the latest charge. In 400 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 2: all those cases, he would have roommates and bunk mats 401 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 2: and cell mats, people he knew, people he drank with 402 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 2: when he was out, and he was known for having 403 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 2: these massive trailer park parties and bashes that he would host. 404 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 2: Frankie had been talking to a lot of people over 405 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 2: the course of the years about what he had done. 406 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: Well, this goes back to your committing a crime with impunity. 407 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 2: There was a woman who dated Frankie Geppart who told 408 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 2: police that he would beat her, and as he beat 409 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 2: her would tell her that if you don't get your 410 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 2: act together, you're going to end up like that black 411 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 2: kid in the ditch a few years. 412 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: Ago, except he didn't say black. I'm pretty sure no. 413 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 3: He did not. 414 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 2: And so there was this sense that this was something 415 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 2: that was openly discussed, openly talked about, that anyone who 416 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 2: was in the know knew that Frankie Geppart had been 417 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 2: involved in this murder. That when an agent Colbyn was reinvestigating, 418 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 2: he went to one trailer in the trailer park. Right, 419 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 2: he's just canvassing, He's just trying to talk to anybody 420 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 2: about do you ever hear anything about this? And when 421 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 2: he gets to one of the trailers and explains why 422 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 2: he's there, the resident goes, oh, Frankie Geppart killed that boy. Again, 423 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 2: this was something that was just talked about openly, that 424 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 2: there wasn't a big mystery about what had happened. That 425 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 2: for decades an entire community of people knew who murdered 426 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 2: Timothy Coggins, and it was the guy hosting the party 427 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 2: up the. 428 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: Street, the GBI agent. This must not have been an 429 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: easy case for him, sure. 430 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 2: I mean, when I talked to agent Coleman, my impression 431 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 2: very much was that he sees this as a job 432 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 2: right At the end of the day, someone was murdered. 433 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 3: This is the most serious crime. 434 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 2: You can commit against another human being, and he had 435 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 2: a chance, he had an opportunity to solve What message 436 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 2: does it send about our justice system if someone can 437 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 2: murder someone, brag. 438 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 3: About it and never go to prison. 439 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 2: And I think that, you know, my impression from my 440 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 2: conversations with Agent Coleman were that the more time he 441 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 2: spent in this case, the more clear it became to 442 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 2: him that law enforcement had failed previously. 443 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: What about his mother, Timothy's. 444 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 2: Mother, Timothy's mother, she got sick in late twenty fifteen, 445 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 2: early twenty sixteen, and had long before that kind of 446 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 2: given up. You know, the Congitz family had stopped talking 447 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 2: a lot about what had happened to Timothy. It was 448 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 2: too heavy. They still lived in the community, lived in 449 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 2: the town. They all knew what happened. It was painful, and. 450 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 3: They all started trying to move on. 451 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 2: In February sixteen, Timothy's mother, on her death bed, had 452 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 2: a premonition. She started declaring to Timothy's sister that they 453 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 2: were going to find the person who killed Timothy. 454 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 3: There was going to be justice, that she just knew 455 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 3: this thing was going to happen. 456 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 2: And Timothy's sister tells me later that she goes, you know, 457 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 2: she just thought her mother was out of her mind. 458 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 2: She was just talking right, an end of life, and 459 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 2: she's of a certain age and she's fine whatever. But 460 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 2: sure enough, not too long after that, the Congan's family 461 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 2: receives its first call from Asian Coleman, who said, Hey, 462 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 2: we've reopened the investigation. 463 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,479 Speaker 3: I think I know who did this. Let's get him 464 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 3: this time. 465 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: I bet that sparked a lot of prayer, even more 466 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: than usual after that. 467 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Right, you have to you have to imagine. 468 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 2: But you also you also have to think about how 469 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 2: hard it is for a family like theirs. Right, It's 470 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 2: been so many years. You've accepted that no one cared 471 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 2: about your brother being murdered. You accepted that this wasn't 472 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 2: gonna get solved, no one cared about the threats you got. 473 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 2: And now some new young investigator guys trying to get 474 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 2: your family all riled up that they're really going to 475 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 2: solve it this time. And you have to you have 476 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 2: to imagine that kind of Understandably, there's a level of all, right, 477 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 2: if you say so, Agent Coleman, Sure, okay, because there's 478 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 2: such a risk and of vulnerability to believe it, getting 479 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: your hopes up that there's going. 480 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 3: To be justice served. 481 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 2: You've been disappointed on this for decades, for most of 482 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 2: your life, and now you have to believe this voice 483 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 2: on the other end of the phone telling you he's 484 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 2: going to solve it this time. And so it's interesting 485 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 2: to imagine what that must be like for the family, 486 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: and then also for Agent Coleman and for the prosecutors, 487 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 2: the pressure that puts on them. 488 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: They must have been confident. They had to have been confident. 489 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 1: Right now, You've got all of these people who are 490 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,199 Speaker 1: now saying, okay, we know that this is what happened. 491 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: Physical evidence. Where are we with physical evidence? 492 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 2: When Agent Coleman first brought the potential charges here, he's 493 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 2: got all of these witnesses, Paul, who say, Frankie Gebhart 494 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 2: did this, Bill Moore did this. They confessed it to me, 495 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: and they confessed it here. I heard them over talk 496 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 2: talking about at a party. Right, they bring the charges, 497 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 2: but at the time there's almost no physical evidence whatsoever. 498 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 2: The entire case file has gone missing in the Sheriff's department. 499 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 2: The original police reports, the evidence, the tire tracks, the 500 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 2: blood samples that, like anything you would need in. 501 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 3: The court of law, doesn't exist. It's all good. 502 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 2: And among the things that had never been found had 503 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,239 Speaker 2: been the murder weapon, the knife that had been used 504 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 2: to stab and to carve into Timothy Cobbin's investigator, Coleman, 505 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 2: is meeting with the prosecutors and they're trying to figure 506 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 2: out what they're going to do, and they conclude, we 507 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 2: gotta find something that all of these witnesses, who themselves 508 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 2: in many cases are criminals, are inmates who overheard Frankie 509 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 2: depart saying something correct. 510 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 3: These are not choir boys and priests. 511 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 2: Who are the witnesses, which, by the way, for folks 512 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 2: who involved in criminal just system is very rarely the case. 513 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 2: Very few witnesses and criminal cases are the priests to 514 00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 2: whom you just gave confession. 515 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 1: Criminal criminals. There's a shock. 516 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 2: Sure, you're in jail, and that's how you're in the 517 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,239 Speaker 2: same place as Frankie got part for him to be 518 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 2: explaining what had happened. 519 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: Right, and he probably mouthed off a lot in jail 520 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: for credibility. 521 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 2: You know you're in jail, you're talking, you know you're 522 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 2: trying to and part of it because everyone's insecure. 523 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 3: I mean, think about you can't be more vulnerable than 524 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 3: being in prison. None of you don't have any rights. 525 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 1: Somebody said that Gepart said that I killed this black 526 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: kid just for fun, right, or it was something along 527 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: those lines. 528 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, but there was somebody testified in court 529 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 2: that gep Part had been kind of bragging about it. 530 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 2: I just did this, and I missed the good old 531 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 2: days and we could just do things like this and 532 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 2: treat people however we wanted, and and so. 533 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: It frames it differently. 534 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 3: Now. 535 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 2: Meanwhile, prosecutors are desperately searching for evidence. They get a 536 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 2: warrant to go into Frankie Geppart's trailer, hoping that maybe 537 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 2: there's some evidence. 538 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 3: They can't really find anything. 539 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 2: They take all these knives out of his house, hoping 540 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 2: one of them might be the knife. None of them 541 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: are the nice sixty knives of the Frankie get Part 542 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,719 Speaker 2: is still about it. There's this jail house witness, as 543 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: jailhouse snitch, who tells the investigators that, oh, Frankie came 544 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 2: to me the other day and he was bragging that 545 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,120 Speaker 2: you took sixty of his knives, but you didn't get 546 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: the right one because the real knife is down the 547 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 2: hole in the well, back behind his trailer. 548 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: One idiot, and so, thank goodness, criminals aren't smart, many 549 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: of them. 550 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 3: He had said this before. 551 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 2: There was at least one other witness who had suggested 552 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 2: that perhaps the evidence might be back in the well. 553 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 2: But there was an issue for prosecutors that the well 554 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 2: was really close. 555 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 3: To Frankie Geppart's trailer. 556 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 2: There was no way for them to go down into 557 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 2: it without actually destroying the trailer itself, which they don't 558 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 2: really have a right to do. Just because someone's locked 559 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 2: up board you suspected them of a crime, doesn't mean 560 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 2: you can go knock their house down. 561 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 3: And so they had a logistical issue. 562 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 2: They were convinced that crucial evidence was in the bottom 563 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 2: of this well, but the well was too close to 564 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 2: the trailer, and they didn't know what they were going 565 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 2: to do. So they set out trying to find different 566 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 2: ways to get into this well, and finally they find 567 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 2: this hydro vac company that can basically blast water into 568 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 2: the well and then suck it all up and bring 569 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 2: with it all the debris, and so they power. 570 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 3: Washed the well. 571 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 2: Knife more or less take out all these tanks of 572 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 2: water and dirt and debris, dump them out and then 573 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 2: dig through it. 574 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that must have taken forever days. 575 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 3: And then they got to go through all of it. 576 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 2: But as they go through it, and it's clearly years 577 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 2: of trash that's been thrown down, their debris. But among 578 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 2: the things they find are a broken knife, Adidas shoe 579 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 2: believed to be the same time that Timothy Cobbins was 580 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 2: wearing the night he disappeared, and a T shirt that 581 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 2: was torn up and seemed to have slash marks and 582 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 2: blood marks on it. That after all of those years, 583 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,719 Speaker 2: it appeared that the evidence from Timothy Coggins's murder had 584 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: been sitting in the bottom of that well for all 585 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 2: of those decades, in the back of Frankie Gopart's trailer, 586 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 2: and all anyone had to do was go looking for it. 587 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: Could they pull any forensic evidence off of any blood 588 00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: or anything, it's post degraded. 589 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 2: It was all degraded at that point, And again I 590 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 2: would remind you they didn't have any blood of Timothy 591 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 2: Coggins anymore. 592 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 3: At this point, they'd lost all their original evidence. 593 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 2: And so even if they could get something off of 594 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: that evidence they didn't have anything. 595 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 3: To match it to. 596 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 2: But to my knowledge, there wasn't anything particularly forensic they 597 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: could get off of either the knife, the shirt, the shoes. 598 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 2: That this physical evidence was still in some ways circumstantial, 599 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: but just so happened to fit the exact circumstances that 600 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 2: were in the prosecutor's theory. This was always going to 601 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 2: be a difficult case. Everyone who they could get understand themselves, 602 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 2: was a felon, a white supremacist in a prison gang. 603 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: So it's easy to shoot holes in all of those 604 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: people absolutely, of course. 605 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 2: Of course, and then you've got a bunch of physical 606 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 2: evidence that's been sitting in the bottom of a well 607 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 2: for X number of years. You can't subject to the 608 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 2: same level of forensic analysis that because we don't have 609 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 2: Timothy Coggness's blood, you can't say, well, his blood was 610 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 2: found on the shirt. Well, we don't know what his 611 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 2: blood was anymore. And so there was always some real difficulty. 612 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 3: In this case. 613 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: Now, these people who came forward, these snitches, were they 614 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: asking for something in return? That is one way to 615 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: kind of establish their credibility is if they're just kind 616 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: of going listen, I just want to report this. I 617 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: don't need a lesser sentence. I don't want any special privileges. 618 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: Were they looking for something? Do you think some of 619 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: these folks, some of. 620 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 2: Them had given their statements in exchange or in seeking 621 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 2: some type of leniency, be it in their own sentence 622 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 2: or parole or something like that. But what was also 623 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 2: true is that so many of these people had come 624 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 2: forward at different junctures and time. 625 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 3: It seemed that everyone who. 626 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 2: Had a one on one conversation with Frankie Getpart walked 627 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 2: away understanding that he had murdered this kid. 628 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 3: And so, no matter what their various motivations were. 629 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: These were insistent. 630 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 3: These were not people who prosecutors and police sought. 631 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 2: Out going well, did Frankie ever tell you about the 632 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 2: In many cases, these were people who themselves came forward 633 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 2: and said, let me tell you about this thing that 634 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 2: I've been told. What was true was just the consistency 635 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 2: and the breath in a secret, right. I mean, so, 636 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,479 Speaker 2: in addition to the Joe House snitches, you had local residents. 637 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 2: You had ex girlfriends of the men who said they 638 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 2: talked about it. 639 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 3: You had people who had been at. 640 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 2: Parties with them who drunkenly overheard them talking about it. 641 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: They have all of these witnesses who are testifying, they 642 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: have the evidence gathered. They place him under arrest. Where 643 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: is Bill Moore in this whole thing? Did Bill put 644 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: his hands on Timothy Coggin's or is it specifically get 645 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:28,719 Speaker 1: Part that they're focusing on. 646 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 2: Both men are charged with the murder. They don't charge 647 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 2: Frankie as if he was particularly worse than Bill. The 648 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 2: idea was that they were. These are two men who 649 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 2: are relatively inseparable. They're best friends, brothers in law. 650 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: Is that right? 651 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're brothers in law. Bill I believe is married 652 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 2: to Frankie's sister. Long time best friends who are both 653 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 2: there that night, who both commit the crime, are both 654 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 2: charged with it. Gut Part comes up first. His trial 655 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 2: happens first. Gut Part's still denying it. They find the 656 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 2: physical evidence in the well. They take him the trial, 657 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 2: where person after person after person testifies that they heard 658 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 2: him bragging about this murder. Ultimately, the jury comes back 659 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 2: with a guilty verdict and concludes that Frankie Geppart did 660 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 2: do this. 661 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 3: He did murder Timothy Coggins. 662 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 2: I mean he needed to be held responsible for ultimate 663 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 2: gep Part is sentenced to life in prison. Bill Moore 664 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 2: takes a deal for a twenty year sentence. Plea agrees 665 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 2: to plead guilty. So both of these guys, after decades, 666 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 2: end up facing the types of sentences they would have 667 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 2: faced from the beginning had police aggressively pursued this case. 668 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: What is the reaction of their family? Of the men's 669 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: family get Part and more. Are they outraged? 670 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 2: They thought their uncle and their father that they thought 671 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 2: they were being harassed. Some of these family members had 672 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 2: never heard of this murder. And one day the cops 673 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 2: show up at your father's house, your uncle's house, and 674 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 2: say he murdered a kid thirty years ago. You might 675 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 2: reasonably go, I don't. 676 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 3: Know about that. What do you mean, I've never heard 677 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 3: of this. What are you talking about? My uncle killed 678 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 3: a kid in eighty three. 679 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 2: And so there was a real skepticism, there was a 680 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 2: real frustration, and there was a real pain. I believe 681 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 2: it was Billmoor's daughter sat in trial for each day 682 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 2: and was just heartbroken, was upset, broke down in tears 683 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 2: after Frankie Getpart's conviction. You know, her uncle has been 684 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 2: convicted and sentenced to life in prison, and she's having 685 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 2: to grapple with this idea that maybe this man who 686 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 2: I know and who I love, who is my family, 687 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 2: murdered someone. 688 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: So it sounds like they might have believed the evidence. 689 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 2: Then it's no longer that your uncle or your dad 690 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 2: has been accused of a thing. It's that they've been 691 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 2: convicted of right. A jury sent them to prison. 692 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 3: Right. 693 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 2: No matter what you think about what you're looking at 694 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 2: in front of you, you have to grapple with this 695 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 2: idea that your uncle, your father, your brother is now 696 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 2: a convicted murderer. 697 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: Is their relief with the Coggins family. 698 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 3: There is some relief. 699 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 2: What I've written with and about families related to people 700 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 2: who've been victimized. One of the big things very often 701 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 2: is this just feeling of the unknown, not knowing who 702 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 2: the person is, that they're out there, different theories still 703 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 2: popping into your head, and this feeling that your loved 704 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 2: one was victimized, was treated this way. 705 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: Right, Oh, somebody's gotten away with something. 706 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 3: You know, at the very least there's a closure. 707 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 2: They know who did it, and those people are paying 708 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 2: a price for now. That doesn't bring Timothy back, It 709 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 2: doesn't take away years of pain and frustration. But it 710 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,280 Speaker 2: does send a message to them that someone cared about 711 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,879 Speaker 2: tim cared enough to go track down the person who 712 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 2: killed him and make sure he's sitting in prison. 713 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: Where does this story fit in with you as a 714 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: journalist and as a person who has to talk to 715 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: these people about this incredible trauma even though it happened 716 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: forty years ago. 717 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 2: You know, I do a lot of work that involves 718 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 2: talking to traumatized families, That involves talking to the families 719 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 2: who are related to people who've been victims in police shootings, 720 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 2: in mass shootings, people who died in hurricanes or earthquakes 721 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 2: or wildfires. That a big portion of the work that 722 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 2: I do involves telling the stories of people who've lost someone. 723 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 2: One of the things I try to do impossible and 724 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 2: it's one of the things that I think helps draw 725 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 2: me to this story. Was times when you can take 726 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 2: a story from contemporary time and place it in concert 727 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 2: and place it in conversation with our history. 728 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 3: What does the story of. 729 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 2: Timothy Coggins's death tell us about who we have been 730 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 2: as a country, and what does it tell us about 731 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 2: who we are today and therefore about who we can 732 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 2: be and happened not a century ago, but within many 733 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 2: of our lifetimes. The Coggans family doesn't get closure, doesn't 734 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 2: receive justice if the people of Griffin, Georgia, and the 735 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 2: people of Georgia broadly are unwilling to acknowledge what happened. 736 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 3: In the first place. 737 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 2: And so I just I think about that a lot, 738 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 2: you know, because I think so much of the conversations 739 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 2: we have in this country around issues of race are 740 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 2: debates about how much we let ourselves look backwards. It's like, 741 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 2: are we talking about that. 742 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 3: Stuff too much? Or shouldn't we just move on? 743 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 2: Or shouldn't we like to what extent and how honestly. 744 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 3: Should we talk about what was happening in the past. 745 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 2: Right or should we let it be what it is? 746 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 2: And what I appreciate about this was that this was 747 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 2: not a theoretical conversation. It's not a theoretical article. It 748 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 2: is not some debate or a philosophical like no, no, no. 749 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,240 Speaker 2: This is a story about a family that was wrong. 750 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: And do you think about that? When I read this story, 751 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: I thought, is it okay? Is it a positive that 752 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: it happened? It took almost forty years, but this happened 753 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,800 Speaker 1: or is it the negative the Godess took forty years. 754 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 2: What I appreciate about this story is that it's a 755 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 2: story that does kind of in some ways have the 756 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 2: like movie. 757 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 3: Disney happy ending, right, and then they lock up the 758 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 3: bad guy, the family gets justice. 759 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 2: But it's impossible to sit here and beat your chest 760 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 2: and be excited and happy about the fact that after 761 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 2: forty years they arrested a murderer right right. That it's 762 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 2: and I think that that speaks to the reality of 763 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 2: these issues. Even when we go back and do the 764 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,720 Speaker 2: work to address and resolve an injustice from the past, 765 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 2: that in justice still happened. The reality is when we 766 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 2: let something like this happen in our society in the 767 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 2: first place, there's no putting the genie all the way 768 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 2: back into the bottom. No matter what we do, the 769 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 2: Coggins family will still lose, still lost, Timothy. 770 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: Where does this fit into the story of Griffin Georgia. 771 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: Is this a little bit of redemption? 772 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 2: I think that Griffin Georgia still needs to determine and 773 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 2: decide where it thinks it fits in. And what I 774 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 2: mean by that is that I've covered enough stories, especially 775 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,760 Speaker 2: stories that have any historical weight, to them across the South, 776 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 2: or in small suburban communities where the communities themselves are 777 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 2: very torn about the legacy of those stories that for 778 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,280 Speaker 2: parts of the black community, very often it's a feeling 779 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 2: of we have to remember that this thing happened here, 780 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 2: and for part of the white community it becomes a 781 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 2: source of shame. Everyone's gonna think we're all this way. 782 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 2: It's up to Griffin, I think, to decide, and so 783 00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,919 Speaker 2: it's gonna be really interesting to see what happens five 784 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 2: years out, ten years out, twenty years out. 785 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 3: We know that we will know the story. 786 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 2: I'm very proud to whatever extent I've been able to 787 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 2: contribute to the story of Timothy Coggins's death being known. 788 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:12,479 Speaker 3: I'm glad I was able to help write it down. 789 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 2: Yet it remains to be seen if this is something 790 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,839 Speaker 2: that causes Griffin to shrink in embarrassment, or like the 791 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 2: prosecutor and the cops in this case, lean in and 792 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 2: embrace and reckon with what that history means and how 793 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 2: it challenges us to be better. 794 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words. 795 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 4: One of the saddest things about this case is that 796 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 4: sort of the best thing about Joe was turned against him. 797 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 4: You know, he couldn't just have been this warm guy 798 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 4: who Yes, he also liked to dress well and a 799 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 4: few other things. This meant that he was gay. In 800 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 4: the nineteen eighties, small town, Texas, the insinuation that a 801 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 4: high school principal, someone who's around teenage boys all the 802 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 4: time is gay, was poisonous is completely toxic. 803 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 804 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the year this has 805 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more Media Production. Alexis and 806 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Epan is our sound designer. 807 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for US. 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