WEBVTT - Day Three, Part Two at the Milken Global Conference 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:05.680 This is Bloomberg Business Wait inside from the reporters and 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.440 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.440 gloom War, Business finance, and tech news. The Bloomberg Business 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:19.000 Week Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:22.279 You know, one of the components of Milkin. It's a 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:24.800 lot about finance and capital flows and where the money 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:27.440 is going, but it's also about wellness and health. And 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:29.440 with that in mind, I want to welcome our next guest. 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:32.080 Dale Cook is co founder and CEO of the digital 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:35.400 behavioral health therapy platform. It's called Learn to Live. He 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:38.400 participated in a panel. There's an app for that, hyper Health, 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:41.600 So we have a lot to get to Welcome. Welcome, 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:42.400 Nice to have you here. 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:43.519 Thanks so much for having me. 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:43.840 Carol. 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:45.720 Let's go to the I mean I said to you 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:48.520 before we got going, I love meditation. I think these 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.680 apps have really helped people access things like that. But 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:53.479 I also think in terms of I've heard a lot 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:56.760 of folks finally getting a chance to talk and have 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.880 some therapy online and things that they either couldn't do 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:02.760 in the past. Tell us about the panel and some 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:04.720 of the things that came up there is a lot 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:05.920 of applications out there. 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:09.319 Well, for sure, there's a lot of opportunity. As we know, 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:13.160 mental health has not only been a large problem for 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:16.720 many people globally and in the United States, it's getting 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:18.920 even more and more challenging, both in terms of people 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:23.360 suffering and those needing to find different ways to access care. So, 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:26.399 for example, in the United States, only half of the 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:30.080 counties in the country have at least one mental health 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:33.759 care practitioner. So you mentioned talk therapy, and it's great, 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.160 it can be great for any people, but the supply 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:39.840 of therapists for those who need it is it's very inequitable. 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:43.480 So we talk about food deserts, yes, like therapist desert exactly. 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:46.080 That's a great phrase for it. On top of that, 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.280 we also recognize that three out of four people in 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:52.200 America with a mental health problem do not want to 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:55.520 seek out traditional therapy, an in person therapist, or use 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:58.680 teletherapy because of stigma concerns. While it's gotten better, it's 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:02.000 still an ongoing issue. Access concerns. We just talked about that, 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:05.360 or cost concerns, and so in the panel, I think 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:09.240 one of the really great topics was what roles do 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:13.200 digital health apps play and how do we assess their 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.000 effectiveness their efficacy? And I think that was a key 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:18.399 component because we talked about, for example, in the mental 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:21.800 health space, two ways. We look at that as subjective measures. 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:25.000 So we were talking about meditation before the session, whether 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:29.240 or not the app you use is clinically validated. It 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:30.960 may or may not be, but it works for you. 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:33.760 So that's a subjective measure that's critically important. For example, 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:36.320 the work that Never Lived does, but in our space, 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:39.520 it's critically important for us and for our clients because 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:43.040 they're paying for the service to show the clinical efficacy. 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:45.720 And so there's a whole body of work that's been 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:48.520 done really over three decades for many digital apps, even 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.680 the early ones, to show clinical effectiveness, and even more 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:52.880 important in the mental health. 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:54.720 Space, dig a little deeper into that. So how do 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:56.800 you show that. I do think that's really important. And 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:58.760 I do also do think that there's a situation where 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:01.639 you're going to understand that there's something more that's needed here, right, 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:03.840 that's right to be able to identify that that's right. 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.280 And from the time we started nine years ago, my 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:10.200 co founder's PhD in psychology we recognize that in as 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:12.200 much as we want to reach people in the most 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:16.840 efficient and friendly way possible, we needed to show really 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:18.960 meaningful clinical results. So one of the ways we do 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:22.160 that is we measure our users, we call them members, 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:25.800 our members progress with what we call gold standard psychometric assessment. 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:27.520 So if you've been in for an annual physical, you 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:29.760 may have taken the PHQ nine for depression as part 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.880 of your annual physical. That's a gold standard, widely accepted 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:36.120 assessment tool. And so if you're in a depression program 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:37.920 with Learned to Live, you take that PHG nine at 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.280 the beginning and then at the beginning of each of 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.000 the eight subsequent lessons in the program, and as that 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.480 score drops, we can show improvement. Interesting, but it doesn't 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.720 stop there. So we take that data, we make it public, 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.040 it's reviewed, it's peer reviewed, and then it's published in 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:56.600 research journals. So that's step two, because it needs to 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:00.760 really be what we would call unassailable data, unassailable clinical 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.720 effectiveness data that our payer clients, our employer clients, our 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.720 university clients say this is the gold standard, that it's 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:12.000 been used for decades, and this digital health app can 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.800 be tied to that, and so we're comfortable that the 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:18.280 improvements we're seeing. The subjective part is important, but the 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:22.200 actual data, the raw data that we're seeing is really, 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:24.520 like I said, unassailable. And then in turn, it's driving 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:27.440 meaningful cost reduction for our clients. So we can attach 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:29.960 those two together where they say, Okay, it's not just 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:32.000 a nice to look at app and it's not just 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:34.520 really high engagement, which we're fortunate to get in the 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.599 communities that use our application. It really works. 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:40.640 I love the use of data, right, and just really 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:45.279 tracking it and it's not just kind of casual at all. 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:48.080 Right, And I think one of the nuances, and we 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.479 talked about this in the session yesterday here not was 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:55.400 it needs to be very user focused, right, So the 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:57.560 consumer needs to be able to kind of choose their journey. 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:00.280 It needs to be very friendly, very easy to navigate. 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:05.320 But underneath that has to be a very structured clinical 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:07.480 protocols that really drive the progress. 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:10.320 So dip Joe or Jane comes in and they want 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:12.840 to use the platforms, How does it work? What's it cost? 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.280 Give us an idea of logistically how it all work. 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:17.560 Sure, so one of the ways we think about it, 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:21.640 So we are very direct, consumer focused in terms of 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:23.640 how we deliver the app and make sure that you're 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:25.920 having a great experience on the app and that you're 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.600 progressing with your mental health improvement. But we have organizations 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:33.120 who are our clients. So, for example, a large Blue 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:36.640 Cross Blue Shield plan we serve almost thirty three million Americans, 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.200 is what we cover now with our services. And so 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.360 let's say you're a health plan client and you're made 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.120 aware through a communication from a Blue Cross Blue Shield plan. 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:47.600 When you come onto our site, there's a code that 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:50.880 you enter. It's very easy and essentially you're what I 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.240 call behind the curtain. There's no cost to you, and 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.200 right away you're presented with an assessment that's optional for 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:58.520 you to take, and it's a comprehensive assessment. So when 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:00.960 you take it takes about five minutes. You can see 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:04.719 how you score clinically across social anxiety and soomnia, substitute 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:08.160 depression and so on, and the results of that also 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:11.160 help guide you into the program that we think may 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:13.520 be best for you. Right but you can override that. 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:15.000 So if you say I don't want to do that, 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:16.800 I really am feeling anxious. I just want to go 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.520 into the anxiety program. You have full rain into that 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.320 and then immediately if you want, you can engage with 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:24.279 one of our clinician coaches that we have on staff 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:26.919 twenty four to seven. So you don't just need to 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:29.600 do the app on yourself, on your own and a 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:31.960 self directed way. You can engage with a clinician anytime 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:32.680 if you want to do. 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:34.440 Because I do think that there's nuances right when it 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:37.200 cots to wellness in a mental wellness, if you will 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:39.400 a mental well being, what is it cost? So it 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:42.440 sounds like there's a lot of coverage an acceptance that's. 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.440 Right, So to the individual users, zero cost, right because 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.080 the organization that you're with, your employer, your health plan 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:48.760 is paying for it. 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:53.880 But what acceptance has there been in general Corporate America 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:55.839 or health some of the major health. 0:06:55.640 --> 0:07:00.360 Insurers significant acceptance. So we fifty per you know, it's 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:02.480 hard to say what the overall penetration is. I can 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:05.680 tell you that, you know, we've grown to covering over 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:09.120 thirty three million Americans in a pretty short timeframe, and 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:12.160 that's a really interesting mix of payers, large scale payers. 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:14.760 You know, some payers we cover you know, twenty million 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.120 of their you know, membership and then we're fortunate to 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:20.720 see you know, twenty to thirty to forty percent engagement 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.880 of that population just with learn to Live. And so 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.800 if you consider traditional behavior health, which is one to 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.440 two percent a year for population, and we're doing twenty 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:32.840 or thirty percent, it gets very exciting for organizations. 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:35.320 How sticky is it in terms of people who come 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.000 up on the platform and then stay with it? 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.280 It's incredibly sticky. I would say, you know, if we're 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:44.000 speaking in sort of digital health app terms, roughly thirty 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:49.000 percent of you So wrong to say, but it's important, right, 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:51.920 I mean, when we think about reframing mental health into 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:55.040 a daily mental fitness routine or it needs to be 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:58.240 sticky and we need to stick with it. And so 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:03.800 it's been very, very very sticky, very popular. About thirty 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:06.240 percent of our users who begin with us are still 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:07.640 interacting with us a year later. 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.440 Your client retention rate is that very high. 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:12.680 Very high? And certainly we like to think that we 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:14.600 have an amazing team that learned to Live, but part 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:16.080 of it is that there's tremendous need. 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.360 Yeah, what's the demographics? Is there a typical demographic or 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.200 is it all over all over the place? 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:23.880 You know it's changed over the past nine years, but 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:27.680 I would say currently there's a few different kind of 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.680 bumps in the Bell curves, if you will. We have 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.280 a really interesting use in sort of the nineteen to 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:36.199 twenty two age Raine, so we offer our programs thirteen 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:40.200 and up, and then we have another kind of tip 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:43.400 of the curve in the early thirties, about late fifties, 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:47.920 and then interestingly in the seventies and so we've moved 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:51.360 into Medicare in addition to Medicaid, and we have tremendous 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:52.160 use among seniors. 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.120 I'm not surprised. I mean, having had elderly parents and 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:58.680 depression is often you know, you see it and just 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:04.960 talking with friends that that's pretty common. Privacy issues an 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:05.840 excellent question. 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:10.160 So this is where different organizations are highly differentiating in 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:12.560 the space. And as we know, especially with COVID, there's 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.960 been a proliferation of time health apps, right, and so 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:19.160 organizations have become much more sophisticated and discerning. 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:21.040 It's stressful just trying to figure out how to do it. 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.440 It is and it's a highly personal journey, right. So 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.320 for you as a user, you care what happens to 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:28.560 the data that you're using in an app, it's a 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:30.800 really big deal. And so for example, learn to Live, 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.600 there's very strict protocols we follow. There's something called High 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:36.640 Trust Certification, which is kind of a gold standard for 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.760 health plants that you need to meet, Soft two compliance, 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.679 Hippo compliance. All of these are standards that we've met 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:43.240 years ago. 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:44.800 But even though the data, as you said, goes to 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:46.880 research journals and stuff like, all of that is just 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:48.520 kind of like it's. 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:52.760 Just that's all masked very yes, and that's with permission, 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:56.240 So we don't ever publish. We never personally identify any 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:58.959 of our users, even to our clients. So if you 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:02.040 had access via a Blue Cross plan, that plan would 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.080 never see your personal idelfiable data. 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:07.280 Just last question, what are your plans for the future. 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.920 Well, we're going to continue to grow and expand you know, 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:14.160 there's a massive need for mental health program so that's 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:16.360 one area we're going to keep adding new programs, and 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:20.120 two we're continue to find really big ways to integrate 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.640 into other points of the mental health care ecosystem. 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:24.720 Well, really fascinating, And I feel like I'm a little 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:26.280 stress because we got to talk a little bit about banks. 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:28.160 So I'm going to have to shift gears, but stay 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:29.480 in touch and let me know how things are going. 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:30.960 As your Carol, Thanks good luck. 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:33.760 Dale Cookie's co founder and CEO of Learned to Live 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:34.640 here at Milkin. 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:38.480 If you're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast, catch 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:41.920 us live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.439 on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:48.719 Business app, or watch us live on YouTube. 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.560 Things are getting done, the world is moving forward, and 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.760 that is true when it comes to aviation and clean technology, 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:58.040 which is something that's come up a lot here at Milkin. 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.560 So we want to talk about that with our next guest. 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:03.920 Delighted to bring in about Miftakoff. He's founder and CEO 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.160 of Zerio Avia. They have backing for Bill Gates, break 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.440 Through Energy Ventures and Jeff Bezos Climate Pledge Fund. 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:13.520 Welcome, Welcome, thank you, thank you. Great to be here. 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:15.840 I love talking clean technologies, I said to you, and 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:18.680 I love talking what's going on with aviation. Tell us 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:19.960 about your company first of all. 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:22.360 Yeah, so we started a company five years ago, a 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:25.640 lill more than five years. We have built a technology 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:29.600 in house. We're flying multiple prototypes already the largest one 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.120 flying in the UK. The company is between West Coast 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.720 US and the UK twenty seedars and we just announced 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:39.200 with Alaska, one of our launch partners and airline investor, 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:43.480 a large aircraft development, seventy six seat aircraft. That's serious 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:47.760 that we're looking to start running on our powertrain later 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:49.240 this year and flight next year. 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:51.360 So tell me about your powertrain. 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:55.400 Yeah, So it's hydrogen electric to hydrogen board the aircraft 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.680 and then converting that to electricity using the fuel cells 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:01.520 and Electrica Iron's motors. 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:02.720 All the critical. 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:04.840 Technology we have in the house, which is important because 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:08.720 you cannot really use automotive technology. It's very hard to certify, 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:11.319 so you need to develop everything from scratch your build 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:12.080 to the whole days. 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.040 So that's what we've done before that. 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:19.440 Before zero, I did the electric car company and charging 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.720 systems already in sustainable transport, so this was natural. 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:23.560 I'm sold that. 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:26.760 I sold that started to think about what's next. 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:31.079 I'm a pilot myself, so flying helicopters airplanes is personally 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.880 connected to the industry and didn't really started seeing you know, 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:37.680 people talking about, you know, maybe we should stop flying 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.680 and maybe we should all sit at home, and I 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:41.679 really didn't like that. 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.439 So so is what we're doing the focus on evs 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.679 in their current state, not the future. In terms of 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.760 alternative fuel, is it hydrogen that really makes the difference? 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:55.400 And you think that ultimately is what takes over? 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:58.760 I know it depends on that your book, It depends 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.240 on the type of but you know, we like to 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:04.440 think that we are unbiased. We're first principles based. Yeah, 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:06.960 and my previous company was all about batteries. 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.800 I know, is that the answer because that has problems too, 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:12.320 and you need power to fuel those batteries. 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:13.199 That's right, that's right. 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:16.680 But so the secret source from my previous company was 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:19.960 exactly around that. And I did apparently yesterday on the 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:21.760 future of mobility and all that. We had a little 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:25.319 bit of discussion around it, and the key was, yes. 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:29.520 It requires a lot of new power. But those cars 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:30.559 typically sit. 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:32.840 In the parking lot, either at your work or at 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.000 your house for ninety five percent of the time, and 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:38.240 if they keep kept plugged in, then you can use 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:41.240 that battery capacity to store all that renewable power. So 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.600 renewable power problem is, you know, sun shines, you have power. 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:46.840 Sun doesn't shine, you don't have power, right, and everybody 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.720 quotes that as a problem. But if you have storage 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.920 connected batteries connected all the time in these electric vehicles, 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:55.040 then you can store that power use it later, right, 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:57.800 So that's why I think will happen in the automotive space. 0:13:57.800 --> 0:13:59.080 So batteries work there. 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:02.360 The bigger problem there is recycling off all these materials, right, 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:07.160 because right now you know single digit percentage penetration. You know, 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.240 we have enough materials is not a huge problem. But 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:11.840 when you have you know, fifty seventy percent of all 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:15.800 cars being electric as a lot of chart for aviation, 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:18.920 this is a complete non starter because you know what's 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:22.960 worked for your Tesla, right, or for my wife's Desla, 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:26.440 because I don't have a car anymore, which is you know, 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.320 a thousand cycles on the on the battery, that's three 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.800 hundred thousand miles. You ver will drive three hundred thousand 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.720 miles in your car. But in a commercial aircraft you 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:37.400 go through that battery in six. 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.080 Months, right, like what kind of size the mattery? 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.200 Right, and then your replace, replace, replace, So material problem 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:44.840 is huge, and even before that it wasths too much. 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:45.520 It doesn't work. 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.480 Hydrogen is the only way to do large commercial aircraft 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:49.480 over long distances. 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.200 But what about some of the concerns and problems with hydrogen. 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.000 Yeah, so the main problem actually from the technology standpoints, 0:14:56.120 --> 0:15:00.640 the main problem is hydrogen takes more volume, yeah, to store. 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.760 So what we are doing and we're going after the 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:08.520 existing aircraft, existing fleets, and then existing types of aircraft, 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.960 maybe new aircraft, but existing types. So what we do 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:15.480 is we retrofit those aircraft and line fit and we're 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:17.120 able to achieve about. 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:18.280 Half the range. Right. 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:22.040 So an example I mentioned in Alaska, they have thirty 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.920 of those aircraft propel large propeller aircraft, seventy six seed 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:28.080 aircraft on fleet. Those aircraft on fossil fuel, they can 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.920 fly for one five hundred miles six hours in the air. 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:34.800 Nobody flies those things for six hours. So we are 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:36.680 coming in and we're saying we can't deliver half the 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:40.120 range seven hundred miles, and all the operators say, well, 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:43.560 that's fine because we fly them today three hundred miles 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:46.360 four hundred miles max. Right, Because when they were designed 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.120 back in the day, they were designed for long missions, 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:49.680 not anymore. 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.040 How big can you go in terms of like the 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:55.600 jumbo plane that I'm going to take home from Lax 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.920 back to New York. Is this ultimately what you can do? 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:00.000 Yeah, it's cossiles. 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.000 So within ten years we're hoping to get to what's 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:06.080 called single aisle, so Boying seven thirty seven or Airbus 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:06.760 A three twenty. 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:08.480 And what's holding you back from doing it? 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:09.840 Today? 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.960 We need to scale the technology, the fuel cells most 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:17.800 importantly to these large power levels, high power levels, right, 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:20.400 So today we have the technology that power is already 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:24.040 twenty seed aircraft and this flying, and we're submitting that 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:27.800 engine for certification later this year, launching twenty twenty five, 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.160 so two years out you'll be able to buy tickets yeah, 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:34.320 for that aircraft. The next size is the seventy six 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:36.400 seed aircraft. That will take us about five years to 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.800 get to commercial, but you know, within ten years we'll 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:41.440 be able to get to to get you. 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:42.040 To New York. 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:46.920 What's the safety Yeah, frequently asked question to the point 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.640 that at some point I had, you know, second page 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:53.960 on my presentations, Hindenberg, you know, just showing safe then 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:56.520 and then you know the message there is technology has 0:16:56.560 --> 0:17:00.040 moved on right in eighty plus years, Yeah, so we 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:04.040 have one hundred week meaning you know, society, right, Yeah, worldwide, 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.320 we have over one hundred thousand ground vehicles operated on 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:11.200 hydrogen by unqualified personal You can you know, anybody can 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.400 walk into Toyota dealership today and buy a hydrogen car, 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:18.680 drive off, go into the fueling station and fuel up 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:23.040 with hydrogen, buy herself himself, you know, without any training. 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:24.440 Yeah, and no incidents. 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:26.600 But I don't see that anywhere, Yeah. 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:28.280 Because you know, a hundred thousand is not a huge 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:31.800 number with respect to you know, billions of vehicles worldwide, 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:32.760 but they're there. 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.240 California actually has like a third of them. 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.240 But where are we then doing more of that versus 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:39.200 the eb batteries? 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:43.760 Yeah, the vehicles, the hydrogen fuel cell technology is expensive 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.359 now relative to the combustion cars. 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:48.960 Relative to battery is much more expensive. 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:52.439 So Toyota I think still loses money on every vehicle, 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:53.840 and those are not cheap vehicles. 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.080 I think the is it double the cost of combustion 0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:58.840 it's probably ten x ten. 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:00.800 Times, probably ten What about evy batter. 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:02.879 Part of that is volume game as well, right, so 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:04.760 you know you don't you don't have a long going 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:09.240 but in aviation, everything is expensive, right, So your performance 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:12.640 you're not based on cost, you based on performance and safety, 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:16.520 so you have a lot more room on the cost basis, 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:19.720 and that allows us to deploy these technologies in aviation. 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.160 And coupled with the fact that you know batteries will 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:28.280 not work sustainable aviation fuels are really fundamentally much more 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:33.520 expensive than hydrogen than hydrogen electric, that gives us an opportunity. 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:35.280 You have airlines lending up to order. 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.199 Absolutely, we have pre orders for about ten billion dollars 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:44.360 of worth of future revenues. Might have American Airlines, United Airlines. 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:46.840 For bigger, for the bigger actually for. 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:48.280 Regional planes to start with. 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.600 So in the next seven years we're looking to do, 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.760 you know, fulfill those orders, start fulfilling those orders. We 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:58.240 are now taking deposits, booking productions laws, very exciting time. 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:01.240 Unbelievable now, it's fascinating. So you think in ten years 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:04.720 from now it will be all over, well. 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:08.880 Not quite all over the big tween isle planes. 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:11.520 It will take more time, right, so these are what 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:15.320 you would take you know, from Lax to London, for example, right, 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:18.280