1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:21,876 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:21,916 --> 00:00:25,076 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:25,676 --> 00:00:29,116 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. When we all come out from social 4 00:00:29,156 --> 00:00:33,756 Speaker 1: isolation after the coronavirus pandemic finally ends, and I'm assuming 5 00:00:33,756 --> 00:00:38,036 Speaker 1: it will, we will emerge changed, and we will emerge 6 00:00:38,076 --> 00:00:41,556 Speaker 1: into a changed world. Is there a chance that one 7 00:00:41,596 --> 00:00:45,356 Speaker 1: of those changes will be that we've become more environmentally 8 00:00:45,396 --> 00:00:49,596 Speaker 1: friendly or at least more environmentally aware. Are there things 9 00:00:49,636 --> 00:00:51,916 Speaker 1: we could be doing now while everything is on pause 10 00:00:52,356 --> 00:00:54,836 Speaker 1: that could have a long lasting impact on the health 11 00:00:54,916 --> 00:00:57,716 Speaker 1: of our planet or our thing is going to go 12 00:00:57,796 --> 00:01:00,996 Speaker 1: the other way? Is our need to restart our economy 13 00:01:00,996 --> 00:01:05,396 Speaker 1: and going to overwhelm our impulse to improve the environment. 14 00:01:06,156 --> 00:01:09,156 Speaker 1: Might the enormous cost of the bailouts were engaged and 15 00:01:09,236 --> 00:01:12,956 Speaker 1: now actually deter us from investing in a serious way 16 00:01:13,236 --> 00:01:16,556 Speaker 1: into transformation of our energy system to fight climate change. 17 00:01:17,276 --> 00:01:21,196 Speaker 1: To discuss these pressing questions, I'm joined by Bill mckibbon. 18 00:01:21,836 --> 00:01:24,476 Speaker 1: Bill's a central figure in the history of the climate 19 00:01:24,516 --> 00:01:27,356 Speaker 1: change struggle. He was one of the first people to 20 00:01:27,396 --> 00:01:30,996 Speaker 1: write and advocate about climate change almost thirty years ago 21 00:01:31,276 --> 00:01:34,516 Speaker 1: in his best selling book The End of nature. He's 22 00:01:34,516 --> 00:01:37,716 Speaker 1: been a central figure in the climate change movement ever since, 23 00:01:38,076 --> 00:01:40,396 Speaker 1: a writer for The New Yorker and the founder of 24 00:01:40,396 --> 00:01:45,636 Speaker 1: the grassroots climate campaign three fifty dot org, among other distinctions. 25 00:01:45,836 --> 00:01:52,356 Speaker 1: Bill is also the father of our shore runner, Sophie mckibbon. Bill, 26 00:01:52,396 --> 00:01:54,996 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me. I wanted to 27 00:01:55,036 --> 00:01:57,876 Speaker 1: start with what is, in a sense, the most obvious question, 28 00:01:58,396 --> 00:02:02,076 Speaker 1: which is here you are? You spend the better part 29 00:02:02,196 --> 00:02:05,356 Speaker 1: of your career trying to get the world to sit 30 00:02:05,436 --> 00:02:09,556 Speaker 1: up and take notice of a profound crisis, and you've 31 00:02:09,596 --> 00:02:12,236 Speaker 1: done an extraordinary job of it. Yet it's been a 32 00:02:12,236 --> 00:02:17,036 Speaker 1: struggle every step of the way. Then suddenly, February March 33 00:02:17,316 --> 00:02:22,436 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty, a handful of people initially die of 34 00:02:22,636 --> 00:02:26,756 Speaker 1: an obscure virus, and boom, just about the entire world 35 00:02:26,836 --> 00:02:31,196 Speaker 1: goes into full on crisis mode with almost no indication 36 00:02:31,356 --> 00:02:33,636 Speaker 1: of what the consequences are going to be. Listening to 37 00:02:33,676 --> 00:02:36,596 Speaker 1: a handful of experts whom no one had heard of before. 38 00:02:37,076 --> 00:02:41,716 Speaker 1: Does that seem strange too? Well, it doesn't seem strange 39 00:02:41,836 --> 00:02:45,996 Speaker 1: in that the immediacy of a pandemic, of a medical crisis, 40 00:02:46,036 --> 00:02:49,756 Speaker 1: the idea that everyone can quickly imagine themselves falling ill 41 00:02:49,876 --> 00:02:52,676 Speaker 1: or dying or the people around them that they love. 42 00:02:53,116 --> 00:02:56,436 Speaker 1: I mean, that's one of the reasons we move fast 43 00:02:56,556 --> 00:02:59,716 Speaker 1: in these situations. The other is, and it's not to 44 00:02:59,796 --> 00:03:03,716 Speaker 1: be discounted, the one good thing about the coronavirus is 45 00:03:03,836 --> 00:03:08,916 Speaker 1: there's not a trillion dollar industry whose business model depends 46 00:03:08,916 --> 00:03:11,996 Speaker 1: on us all getting sick and dying. There is a 47 00:03:11,996 --> 00:03:14,956 Speaker 1: trillion dollar industry whose business model depends on us not 48 00:03:15,076 --> 00:03:19,396 Speaker 1: taking climate change seriously. And that's been, more than anything else, 49 00:03:19,596 --> 00:03:22,396 Speaker 1: the reason that we haven't done so for thirty years. 50 00:03:22,876 --> 00:03:24,956 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about the sort of two 51 00:03:24,996 --> 00:03:28,636 Speaker 1: different pathways, each a bit extremely in the way they're stated, 52 00:03:29,236 --> 00:03:32,396 Speaker 1: that are being bandied about about what will happen in 53 00:03:32,436 --> 00:03:34,596 Speaker 1: the aftermath of Corona, assuming there is an aftermath of 54 00:03:34,636 --> 00:03:38,396 Speaker 1: Corona for us with respect to environmentalism and climate change. 55 00:03:38,556 --> 00:03:40,676 Speaker 1: The one being well, look, we now know that people 56 00:03:40,716 --> 00:03:42,796 Speaker 1: can get together and take seriously a threat, and this 57 00:03:42,876 --> 00:03:45,476 Speaker 1: is extraordinarily hopeful because we could learn from these things 58 00:03:45,716 --> 00:03:48,996 Speaker 1: and maybe translate them into the climate challenge. And then 59 00:03:49,036 --> 00:03:52,556 Speaker 1: the other saying very very pessimistically, there's a huge difference 60 00:03:52,556 --> 00:03:55,196 Speaker 1: between an immediate visible threat and a more difficult to 61 00:03:55,236 --> 00:03:58,556 Speaker 1: see one. In fact, industry will have a tremendously powerful 62 00:03:58,596 --> 00:04:00,596 Speaker 1: argument on its side that we should be putting aside 63 00:04:00,956 --> 00:04:03,996 Speaker 1: long term considerations in favor of short term rebuilding considerations, 64 00:04:03,996 --> 00:04:06,356 Speaker 1: and this is actually going to make things harder, not easier. 65 00:04:07,156 --> 00:04:10,316 Speaker 1: So both those things are going to happen at one 66 00:04:10,396 --> 00:04:13,916 Speaker 1: level or another. There's a powerful desire to get back 67 00:04:13,956 --> 00:04:18,396 Speaker 1: to normal, and it'll manifest in all kinds of ways, 68 00:04:18,636 --> 00:04:21,116 Speaker 1: and some of those ways will make our job of 69 00:04:21,196 --> 00:04:26,156 Speaker 1: dealing with this other overarching climate crisis harder. Look, there's 70 00:04:26,196 --> 00:04:27,996 Speaker 1: not many people who are going to be eager to 71 00:04:28,436 --> 00:04:32,796 Speaker 1: jump back on the subway right because it's scarier place 72 00:04:32,876 --> 00:04:35,836 Speaker 1: than it was six months ago. So there'll likely be 73 00:04:35,916 --> 00:04:39,356 Speaker 1: a lot of people retreating the use of their private 74 00:04:39,436 --> 00:04:43,836 Speaker 1: automobiles in a lot of places, and with gas at 75 00:04:44,116 --> 00:04:46,796 Speaker 1: a dollar forty nine a gallon or whatever it is now, 76 00:04:47,116 --> 00:04:49,996 Speaker 1: there may well be a kind of booming sale of 77 00:04:50,356 --> 00:04:53,916 Speaker 1: SUVs and so on. On the other hand, you've got 78 00:04:53,996 --> 00:04:56,236 Speaker 1: lots and lots of places around the world that are 79 00:04:56,276 --> 00:05:00,716 Speaker 1: taking this moment as a way to make deep change. 80 00:05:01,116 --> 00:05:03,276 Speaker 1: The city of London, which we're used to thinking of 81 00:05:03,356 --> 00:05:06,676 Speaker 1: as the kind of epitome of hide bound old tradition 82 00:05:07,156 --> 00:05:11,116 Speaker 1: has announced that they're basically close most of the streets 83 00:05:11,116 --> 00:05:13,876 Speaker 1: in the center of the city to cars henceforth, and 84 00:05:13,956 --> 00:05:17,956 Speaker 1: it's going to be bikes and buses and pedestrians, so 85 00:05:18,156 --> 00:05:23,316 Speaker 1: it's cutting both ways. What the pandemic really demonstrates, however, 86 00:05:23,836 --> 00:05:28,636 Speaker 1: maybe something we haven't focused on yet. We basically shut 87 00:05:28,716 --> 00:05:32,036 Speaker 1: down the world for a matter of months in a 88 00:05:32,076 --> 00:05:34,436 Speaker 1: way that you or I would have thought was impossible. 89 00:05:34,796 --> 00:05:37,916 Speaker 1: Nothing like that's ever happened in our lifetimes, nothing even 90 00:05:38,076 --> 00:05:42,476 Speaker 1: close to what's ever happened. And yet it looks like 91 00:05:42,716 --> 00:05:47,316 Speaker 1: carbon emissions probably will go down maybe seven or eight 92 00:05:47,316 --> 00:05:51,236 Speaker 1: percent this year. That's it. And what that seems to 93 00:05:51,276 --> 00:05:55,076 Speaker 1: indicate is that an awful lot of what we're doing 94 00:05:55,636 --> 00:05:59,196 Speaker 1: is less as a result of individual choice than of 95 00:05:59,316 --> 00:06:03,476 Speaker 1: things being kind of hardwired into the system. That we're 96 00:06:03,476 --> 00:06:06,276 Speaker 1: going to have to get in the guts of modernity 97 00:06:06,596 --> 00:06:09,636 Speaker 1: and make some basic plumbing changes if we're going to 98 00:06:09,716 --> 00:06:14,476 Speaker 1: be achieving the kind of scale of emissions reductions and 99 00:06:14,556 --> 00:06:17,516 Speaker 1: things that the scientists tell us are necessary. And that's 100 00:06:17,556 --> 00:06:20,556 Speaker 1: an interesting thing to find out. We could all stop 101 00:06:20,556 --> 00:06:24,396 Speaker 1: flying and all stop driving and it still didn't really 102 00:06:24,516 --> 00:06:28,476 Speaker 1: bend this particular curve that much guide us into the 103 00:06:28,516 --> 00:06:31,756 Speaker 1: guts of modernity. Then I want to understand why the 104 00:06:31,876 --> 00:06:35,036 Speaker 1: numbers are not down as radically as that. What are 105 00:06:35,036 --> 00:06:37,916 Speaker 1: the causes of emissions that are remaining so great that 106 00:06:37,996 --> 00:06:41,116 Speaker 1: only seven or eight percent reduction will be achieved this year. Well, 107 00:06:41,116 --> 00:06:47,196 Speaker 1: it's because the underlying kind of autonomic systems on our planet, 108 00:06:47,196 --> 00:06:50,876 Speaker 1: the energy generation that we use every day, the energy 109 00:06:50,916 --> 00:06:53,876 Speaker 1: generation that you and I have been using to light 110 00:06:53,916 --> 00:06:57,756 Speaker 1: and heat our homes, to run everything around us, Every building, 111 00:06:57,836 --> 00:07:01,316 Speaker 1: every piece of the built environment at the moment is 112 00:07:01,716 --> 00:07:04,916 Speaker 1: plugged into this system that relies mostly on digging stuff 113 00:07:04,996 --> 00:07:09,636 Speaker 1: up and burning it. And that's what can change, and 114 00:07:09,956 --> 00:07:13,916 Speaker 1: can change pretty quickly if we want it to. We're 115 00:07:13,956 --> 00:07:17,916 Speaker 1: at a really interesting moment right now. Now. This pandemic 116 00:07:18,036 --> 00:07:21,956 Speaker 1: comes at the end of a decade in which engineers 117 00:07:21,956 --> 00:07:25,556 Speaker 1: have done spectacular work. They've dropped the price of a 118 00:07:25,556 --> 00:07:28,436 Speaker 1: solar panel or a wind turbine by something like ninety 119 00:07:28,516 --> 00:07:31,476 Speaker 1: percent to the place where these are now by far 120 00:07:31,556 --> 00:07:34,596 Speaker 1: the cheapest way to generate power around most of the world. 121 00:07:35,556 --> 00:07:39,716 Speaker 1: So over time we'll move in that direction. Seventy five 122 00:07:39,796 --> 00:07:42,476 Speaker 1: years from now, we'll probably run the world on sun 123 00:07:42,516 --> 00:07:45,596 Speaker 1: and wind because it's cheap. But if we just let 124 00:07:45,756 --> 00:07:49,876 Speaker 1: kind of economics dictate the pace, then we'll go so 125 00:07:49,956 --> 00:07:52,916 Speaker 1: slowly that that world we run on sun and wind 126 00:07:52,956 --> 00:07:56,356 Speaker 1: in seventy five years will be a fundamentally broken world. 127 00:07:57,076 --> 00:08:00,356 Speaker 1: So the job is to figure out can we push 128 00:08:00,436 --> 00:08:04,356 Speaker 1: the pace. And that's where the pandemic is interesting. Given 129 00:08:04,356 --> 00:08:08,436 Speaker 1: that we have all these now cheap technologies pretty much 130 00:08:08,516 --> 00:08:12,556 Speaker 1: ready to go, and given that we have a huge 131 00:08:12,996 --> 00:08:17,116 Speaker 1: now mass of unemployed people around the world who need 132 00:08:17,236 --> 00:08:20,476 Speaker 1: something to do, it's pretty clear to me that the 133 00:08:20,556 --> 00:08:24,876 Speaker 1: only task that the world faces that's on that same 134 00:08:24,956 --> 00:08:28,236 Speaker 1: scale is this task of moving us from one energy 135 00:08:28,276 --> 00:08:33,956 Speaker 1: regime to another. So retrofitting buildings with insulation and with 136 00:08:34,476 --> 00:08:38,396 Speaker 1: new appliances like air source heat pumps, building out a 137 00:08:38,516 --> 00:08:42,756 Speaker 1: network of electric car charging stations, putting up all that 138 00:08:42,836 --> 00:08:46,476 Speaker 1: sun and windpower. If there was an FDR around today, 139 00:08:46,836 --> 00:08:49,436 Speaker 1: those are the tasks he'd be seizing on for a 140 00:08:49,596 --> 00:08:54,236 Speaker 1: WPA or a CCC or whatever it was. And what 141 00:08:54,316 --> 00:08:56,556 Speaker 1: do you know, it just so happens that we have 142 00:08:56,716 --> 00:09:00,396 Speaker 1: in hand from a year ago this idea for a 143 00:09:00,436 --> 00:09:03,556 Speaker 1: green new deal. I have a feeling that that may 144 00:09:03,596 --> 00:09:07,556 Speaker 1: be one of the ways in which the world grapples 145 00:09:07,596 --> 00:09:11,636 Speaker 1: with the twin problem as it now faces, And indeed, 146 00:09:11,636 --> 00:09:14,156 Speaker 1: you can see it's starting to happen. Germany and South 147 00:09:14,276 --> 00:09:17,036 Speaker 1: Korea and a number of other countries seem to be 148 00:09:17,076 --> 00:09:20,196 Speaker 1: picking a kind of green New Deal template as their 149 00:09:20,436 --> 00:09:23,396 Speaker 1: way out of the economic trouble that they're now in. 150 00:09:24,276 --> 00:09:26,596 Speaker 1: Often when I listen to you, I'm struck by the 151 00:09:26,636 --> 00:09:30,796 Speaker 1: balance that you have to strike between making us afraid 152 00:09:31,276 --> 00:09:34,676 Speaker 1: in order to motivates the action and giving us some reassurance. 153 00:09:35,276 --> 00:09:37,516 Speaker 1: I want to double down on the fear right now, 154 00:09:37,556 --> 00:09:39,236 Speaker 1: because when I was listening to you just now, the 155 00:09:39,316 --> 00:09:42,636 Speaker 1: fear I think came when you were saying that we 156 00:09:42,716 --> 00:09:46,796 Speaker 1: need to make these fundamental, long run infrastructure investments of 157 00:09:46,796 --> 00:09:50,956 Speaker 1: a new Deal type. And right now we're doing, at 158 00:09:50,956 --> 00:09:55,196 Speaker 1: an international scale, the most massive instantaneous borrowing against the 159 00:09:55,236 --> 00:09:58,116 Speaker 1: future that we've done since the Great Depression. So if 160 00:09:58,116 --> 00:10:01,716 Speaker 1: we're already engaged in this really generational borrowing, how are 161 00:10:01,716 --> 00:10:04,636 Speaker 1: we going to have the capacity to do it again? 162 00:10:05,476 --> 00:10:10,356 Speaker 1: For environmental transformation, the first thing to be said is 163 00:10:10,876 --> 00:10:13,556 Speaker 1: the things that you're afraid of are good things to 164 00:10:13,556 --> 00:10:16,676 Speaker 1: be afraid of, but the things to really be afraid 165 00:10:16,716 --> 00:10:19,396 Speaker 1: of to really feel in the pit of your stomach, 166 00:10:20,196 --> 00:10:26,196 Speaker 1: are in fact the changes that are now expressing themselves 167 00:10:26,236 --> 00:10:29,396 Speaker 1: on the planet, even in the early phases of climate change. 168 00:10:29,796 --> 00:10:32,196 Speaker 1: I mean, we've warmed the planet one degree so far, 169 00:10:32,356 --> 00:10:34,636 Speaker 1: and that's been enough to knock pretty much all our 170 00:10:34,716 --> 00:10:39,596 Speaker 1: systems a kilter. The devastation that we're already seeing is enormous, 171 00:10:40,516 --> 00:10:44,796 Speaker 1: and it comes with an almost unimaginable price tag if 172 00:10:44,836 --> 00:10:47,076 Speaker 1: all you were thinking about was the kind of economic 173 00:10:47,316 --> 00:10:52,356 Speaker 1: challenge that it presents. The latest study I saw on 174 00:10:52,396 --> 00:10:55,916 Speaker 1: the price of unabated global warming by the end of 175 00:10:55,916 --> 00:10:58,716 Speaker 1: the century, who was about five hundred and fifty one 176 00:10:58,916 --> 00:11:03,036 Speaker 1: trillion dollars, which is considerably more money than currently exists 177 00:11:03,036 --> 00:11:06,996 Speaker 1: on planet Earth. So that's the scale of the challenge, 178 00:11:07,116 --> 00:11:12,036 Speaker 1: and that's precisely why we should be making as wise 179 00:11:12,236 --> 00:11:15,636 Speaker 1: investments as we can right now, even in the midst 180 00:11:15,636 --> 00:11:19,716 Speaker 1: of the kind of panic that surrounds this pandemic. I mean, 181 00:11:19,796 --> 00:11:22,436 Speaker 1: I think clearly people will look back and see this 182 00:11:22,476 --> 00:11:25,396 Speaker 1: as one of the few moments when we really did 183 00:11:25,676 --> 00:11:29,996 Speaker 1: get a sort of break, a pause in order to 184 00:11:29,996 --> 00:11:33,956 Speaker 1: reset some of our assumptions about the world. And we're 185 00:11:33,996 --> 00:11:36,316 Speaker 1: at a place where we can change some of those 186 00:11:36,356 --> 00:11:40,076 Speaker 1: assumptions and do it in ways that make economic sense. 187 00:11:40,596 --> 00:11:44,276 Speaker 1: What it really takes is some degree of leadership, and 188 00:11:44,316 --> 00:11:49,596 Speaker 1: of course right now we're coming up empty there. Our 189 00:11:49,676 --> 00:11:53,276 Speaker 1: problem is, and this is the thing that makes me 190 00:11:53,636 --> 00:12:00,196 Speaker 1: scared sometimes at night. Climate change, like the coronavirus, is 191 00:12:00,636 --> 00:12:04,036 Speaker 1: a problem where the answer has to come fast, if 192 00:12:04,076 --> 00:12:07,876 Speaker 1: it's going to come at all. They're both time tests, 193 00:12:08,196 --> 00:12:11,636 Speaker 1: and the time is short. So we failed the timed 194 00:12:11,716 --> 00:12:16,356 Speaker 1: test part of the coronavirus, right. We took off February 195 00:12:16,436 --> 00:12:19,836 Speaker 1: from effective policy making, and as a result we were 196 00:12:19,876 --> 00:12:23,556 Speaker 1: really screwed. And the countries that spent February doing the 197 00:12:23,636 --> 00:12:26,476 Speaker 1: things that needed doing were by and large ended up 198 00:12:26,596 --> 00:12:30,436 Speaker 1: better off than we did. With climate change. We took 199 00:12:30,476 --> 00:12:34,516 Speaker 1: off the last thirty years from offensive policy making, and 200 00:12:34,636 --> 00:12:37,916 Speaker 1: so now we're in really deep trouble as a result, 201 00:12:38,516 --> 00:12:42,556 Speaker 1: not only are we going to have significant damage, our 202 00:12:42,636 --> 00:12:48,596 Speaker 1: only chance of avoiding just sort of civilization scale carnage 203 00:12:49,116 --> 00:12:51,996 Speaker 1: is if we make huge progress in the next decade. 204 00:12:52,636 --> 00:12:55,916 Speaker 1: The next decade for climate change is the equivalent of 205 00:12:55,916 --> 00:13:00,116 Speaker 1: what February was for coronavirus. Our chance to get it 206 00:13:00,236 --> 00:13:04,316 Speaker 1: at least partly right If we are able to internalize 207 00:13:04,316 --> 00:13:07,036 Speaker 1: that in some way, then we've got a shot. If 208 00:13:07,076 --> 00:13:10,916 Speaker 1: we're not, then we'll just aimlessly wander through and we'll 209 00:13:10,956 --> 00:13:14,436 Speaker 1: be in trouble far forwards than anything we're in now. 210 00:13:15,356 --> 00:13:26,316 Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a moment. One of the 211 00:13:26,436 --> 00:13:29,356 Speaker 1: ongoing challenges that the whole climate change movement has faced 212 00:13:29,676 --> 00:13:35,516 Speaker 1: has been a genuine skepticism by many ordinary people at 213 00:13:35,556 --> 00:13:38,876 Speaker 1: the authority of science. A sense of scientists is disconnected 214 00:13:38,916 --> 00:13:41,436 Speaker 1: as belonging to elites who don't have the interest of 215 00:13:41,516 --> 00:13:43,996 Speaker 1: ordinary people at heart. Do you have a sense that 216 00:13:44,396 --> 00:13:47,996 Speaker 1: the public reaction to science and to scientific authority during 217 00:13:47,996 --> 00:13:51,316 Speaker 1: the Corona crisis is likely to make a difference in 218 00:13:51,316 --> 00:13:54,156 Speaker 1: that conflict, because it does seem to me they are translatable. 219 00:13:54,196 --> 00:13:55,756 Speaker 1: I mean, for example, if we were to get an 220 00:13:55,796 --> 00:13:58,636 Speaker 1: effective vaccine for Corona, which I myself I am not 221 00:13:58,676 --> 00:14:00,836 Speaker 1: convinced as a high probability event from all the experts 222 00:14:00,876 --> 00:14:03,676 Speaker 1: I've spoken to, but it's also a possible event that 223 00:14:03,756 --> 00:14:07,516 Speaker 1: could in principle, really enhance the prestige of scientific authority, 224 00:14:07,676 --> 00:14:10,276 Speaker 1: and if we don't, seems at least possible to me 225 00:14:10,276 --> 00:14:15,076 Speaker 1: that that could further deflate the authority of the scientific community. Yeah, 226 00:14:15,156 --> 00:14:18,276 Speaker 1: it's a really good question, and I think actually there's 227 00:14:18,276 --> 00:14:21,716 Speaker 1: some pretty good signs. The news business being what it is, 228 00:14:21,756 --> 00:14:24,716 Speaker 1: we have no choice to focus on all the knuckleheads 229 00:14:24,716 --> 00:14:26,996 Speaker 1: who wanted to go out to the bar or were 230 00:14:27,196 --> 00:14:32,276 Speaker 1: standing around the Michigan Governor's office with AK forty sevens 231 00:14:32,356 --> 00:14:34,916 Speaker 1: or whatever it was that people were doing. But for 232 00:14:34,956 --> 00:14:38,996 Speaker 1: the most part, Americans were like, yeah, Okay, if the 233 00:14:39,116 --> 00:14:41,876 Speaker 1: doctor says we need to stand six feet apart, we 234 00:14:41,956 --> 00:14:46,916 Speaker 1: best stand six feet apart. I've been pretty pleasantly surprised 235 00:14:47,236 --> 00:14:53,756 Speaker 1: by how well Americans dealt with the reality that suddenly 236 00:14:53,836 --> 00:14:57,356 Speaker 1: was thrust upon them. Most people really did turn their 237 00:14:57,356 --> 00:15:01,476 Speaker 1: lives upside down. The polling seems to show that most 238 00:15:01,476 --> 00:15:04,396 Speaker 1: people respected the politicians who told them to do that 239 00:15:04,596 --> 00:15:08,716 Speaker 1: and worked with them to make it done. We're in 240 00:15:08,876 --> 00:15:14,316 Speaker 1: a weird political fever dream these last years. You know 241 00:15:14,836 --> 00:15:17,716 Speaker 1: a place where it's very hard to find a center 242 00:15:17,836 --> 00:15:21,316 Speaker 1: where up is down and down is up. You know 243 00:15:21,316 --> 00:15:24,716 Speaker 1: where we live in a world of odd conspiracy theories, 244 00:15:24,756 --> 00:15:30,236 Speaker 1: whether they're about vaccinations or climate change, or chemtrails, or 245 00:15:30,636 --> 00:15:32,996 Speaker 1: on and on and on down a long and dreary list. 246 00:15:34,516 --> 00:15:38,116 Speaker 1: It's possible that this pandemic has been enough of a 247 00:15:38,156 --> 00:15:40,636 Speaker 1: shock to the system that will will help us wake 248 00:15:40,716 --> 00:15:43,516 Speaker 1: us out of that fever dream a little bit. I've 249 00:15:44,636 --> 00:15:47,756 Speaker 1: spent an awful lot of time trying to explain to 250 00:15:47,836 --> 00:15:54,276 Speaker 1: people that physics and chemistry aren't negotiable. You can't force 251 00:15:54,316 --> 00:15:58,396 Speaker 1: them to compromise, that they're not going to meet you halfway. 252 00:15:59,356 --> 00:16:03,116 Speaker 1: And that's why these kind of issues are so difficult 253 00:16:03,196 --> 00:16:06,556 Speaker 1: for our political system. I mean, even at its best, 254 00:16:06,716 --> 00:16:10,916 Speaker 1: even when it's working correctly, political system is set up 255 00:16:10,996 --> 00:16:15,196 Speaker 1: to favor compromise. Right. You get groups of people with 256 00:16:15,396 --> 00:16:18,556 Speaker 1: different opinions about topics and they have to somehow kind 257 00:16:18,556 --> 00:16:22,996 Speaker 1: of meet in the middle. That's not what coronavirus or 258 00:16:23,076 --> 00:16:26,676 Speaker 1: climate change are like. They set the terms. If the 259 00:16:26,756 --> 00:16:30,476 Speaker 1: microbe says stands six feet apart, stands six feet apart. 260 00:16:30,516 --> 00:16:34,556 Speaker 1: If the carbon dioxide molecule says we can't keep burning stuff, 261 00:16:34,596 --> 00:16:38,716 Speaker 1: it's getting too hot, then you best pay attention. So 262 00:16:39,436 --> 00:16:41,876 Speaker 1: there are no silver linings in a pandemic. But if 263 00:16:41,876 --> 00:16:43,476 Speaker 1: we're going to go through this much trouble, we might 264 00:16:43,476 --> 00:16:46,996 Speaker 1: as well learn something. And a basic bottom line thing 265 00:16:47,036 --> 00:16:52,396 Speaker 1: to learn is that reality is real. Doesn't matter if 266 00:16:52,436 --> 00:16:56,516 Speaker 1: the president stands it is electern and tries to proudbeat 267 00:16:56,956 --> 00:17:01,036 Speaker 1: the microbe into submission. It could care less. And in 268 00:17:01,116 --> 00:17:05,556 Speaker 1: a world where we've spent the last twenty thirty years 269 00:17:06,396 --> 00:17:11,116 Speaker 1: ever more firmly entrenched behind our screens, where reality seems 270 00:17:11,236 --> 00:17:14,476 Speaker 1: mutable and adaptable and easy to play with, and so 271 00:17:14,596 --> 00:17:17,396 Speaker 1: on and so forth, this is a pretty good reminder 272 00:17:17,716 --> 00:17:22,036 Speaker 1: that that's actually not how reality works. At some level. 273 00:17:22,076 --> 00:17:24,836 Speaker 1: I'm very sympathetic to everything you've said. I see myself 274 00:17:24,836 --> 00:17:27,636 Speaker 1: as a believer in science. I haven't been out in 275 00:17:27,676 --> 00:17:30,836 Speaker 1: a bar, nor have I marched on the State House 276 00:17:30,996 --> 00:17:34,516 Speaker 1: with my a R. Fifteen. That said, I think I 277 00:17:34,596 --> 00:17:38,476 Speaker 1: might have some subtle philosophical difference with you with respect 278 00:17:38,516 --> 00:17:40,636 Speaker 1: to how I think about the motivation of the people 279 00:17:40,636 --> 00:17:42,996 Speaker 1: who did both of those kinds of things. I think, 280 00:17:42,996 --> 00:17:45,516 Speaker 1: with respect to people who are going to a bar, 281 00:17:46,036 --> 00:17:51,796 Speaker 1: they're expressing a fundamental human instinct, a towards sociality, towards 282 00:17:51,836 --> 00:17:57,196 Speaker 1: being with other people, and be towards some desire to 283 00:17:58,196 --> 00:18:00,836 Speaker 1: look straight in the face of something like corona and 284 00:18:00,876 --> 00:18:03,516 Speaker 1: say it actually wouldn't be so bad if we individually 285 00:18:03,596 --> 00:18:05,796 Speaker 1: got it. Then, with respect to the people who are 286 00:18:05,796 --> 00:18:09,956 Speaker 1: you marching, sometimes even armed. They're expressing what I would 287 00:18:09,956 --> 00:18:13,916 Speaker 1: call of the libertarian impulse that is distrustful of the 288 00:18:13,956 --> 00:18:17,396 Speaker 1: way that power functions in the world that we have. 289 00:18:17,916 --> 00:18:20,196 Speaker 1: And I see both of those impulses the kind of 290 00:18:20,236 --> 00:18:22,476 Speaker 1: impulse to human sociality, and let's just all get the 291 00:18:22,516 --> 00:18:25,556 Speaker 1: disease and the libertarian impulse to be distrustful of government 292 00:18:25,556 --> 00:18:30,516 Speaker 1: authority as important ways of interpreting the world. Now, I 293 00:18:30,556 --> 00:18:32,516 Speaker 1: agree with you that the laws of physics don't change 294 00:18:32,596 --> 00:18:34,956 Speaker 1: based on what we would like them to be. But 295 00:18:35,076 --> 00:18:37,196 Speaker 1: we're talking in all these cases about what we should 296 00:18:37,196 --> 00:18:39,516 Speaker 1: be doing from the standpoint of policy, and their political 297 00:18:39,596 --> 00:18:42,436 Speaker 1: judgment does come in. So the standing six feet apart 298 00:18:42,876 --> 00:18:45,636 Speaker 1: isn't I don't think dictated by the virus. That's a 299 00:18:45,756 --> 00:18:49,676 Speaker 1: regulatory response to how we should address the underlying question. 300 00:18:49,676 --> 00:18:52,796 Speaker 1: And we could say, let's let everybody get this virus, 301 00:18:53,076 --> 00:18:55,156 Speaker 1: and that we'll have terrible consequences for some people, and 302 00:18:55,156 --> 00:18:57,876 Speaker 1: it might overcome our healthcare systems, it may lead to many, 303 00:18:57,876 --> 00:19:00,236 Speaker 1: many deaths, but we make the judgment that we shouldn't 304 00:19:00,276 --> 00:19:01,996 Speaker 1: do that. I mean those to me fall in the 305 00:19:01,996 --> 00:19:04,476 Speaker 1: realm of human judgment, and I think that responses to 306 00:19:04,516 --> 00:19:08,316 Speaker 1: climates similarly do I mean, we're talking about very complicated 307 00:19:08,316 --> 00:19:11,796 Speaker 1: cost benefits, and although I happen to come down on 308 00:19:11,836 --> 00:19:15,036 Speaker 1: your side of the coin, I do nevertheless see it 309 00:19:15,116 --> 00:19:20,356 Speaker 1: as a realm of negotiation and discussion and cost benefit 310 00:19:20,476 --> 00:19:23,116 Speaker 1: where we should do that in the shadow of real science. 311 00:19:23,916 --> 00:19:26,476 Speaker 1: So on all kinds of counts, I agree with you, 312 00:19:26,956 --> 00:19:30,196 Speaker 1: But I think the really interesting political question you raise 313 00:19:30,596 --> 00:19:35,196 Speaker 1: is the one about kind of libertarian impulse. You and 314 00:19:35,236 --> 00:19:38,716 Speaker 1: I have lived our lives in the shadow of Ronald Reagan, 315 00:19:39,556 --> 00:19:43,676 Speaker 1: hence in the idea that markets solve all problems. That's 316 00:19:43,716 --> 00:19:47,116 Speaker 1: been the most powerful impulse political impulse I think of 317 00:19:47,116 --> 00:19:51,756 Speaker 1: our time on this planet, and I've been suspicious of 318 00:19:51,756 --> 00:19:53,756 Speaker 1: it from the beginning for a lot of reasons, but 319 00:19:53,796 --> 00:19:57,356 Speaker 1: I think those suspicions get more powerful all the time. 320 00:19:57,836 --> 00:20:01,876 Speaker 1: Reagan's great laugh line, as you'll recall, was the nine 321 00:20:02,036 --> 00:20:04,916 Speaker 1: scariest words in the English language are I'm from the 322 00:20:04,996 --> 00:20:08,156 Speaker 1: government and I'm here to help. Well, I don't think 323 00:20:08,196 --> 00:20:11,716 Speaker 1: those are words in the English language. I think the 324 00:20:11,796 --> 00:20:16,236 Speaker 1: scariest words are we've run out of ventilators, the hillside 325 00:20:16,236 --> 00:20:19,436 Speaker 1: behind your house is on fire, and those are not 326 00:20:20,156 --> 00:20:24,316 Speaker 1: problems that you're capable of addressing. By trying to maximize 327 00:20:24,356 --> 00:20:27,516 Speaker 1: your own wealth. Those are problems that you're capable of 328 00:20:27,556 --> 00:20:32,796 Speaker 1: addressing when we come together to do things jointly. That's 329 00:20:32,916 --> 00:20:38,476 Speaker 1: always been the interesting philosophical dilemma around climate change. The 330 00:20:38,596 --> 00:20:41,516 Speaker 1: reason that the right had so much trouble dealing with 331 00:20:41,556 --> 00:20:44,196 Speaker 1: it and has been forced to deny it really over 332 00:20:44,236 --> 00:20:47,316 Speaker 1: and over again, is that there was, at least at 333 00:20:47,356 --> 00:20:50,436 Speaker 1: this point, no real way to deal with it without 334 00:20:50,836 --> 00:20:55,156 Speaker 1: strong joint action. I mean, I think the syllogism that 335 00:20:55,396 --> 00:21:01,396 Speaker 1: formed in a lot of conservative minds over time was 336 00:21:02,796 --> 00:21:08,156 Speaker 1: markets solve all problems. Markets aren't solving climate change. Therefore 337 00:21:08,236 --> 00:21:11,196 Speaker 1: climate change is not a problem. That's not a very 338 00:21:11,196 --> 00:21:15,556 Speaker 1: good syllogism, but it's emotionally comforting. If you spent the 339 00:21:15,636 --> 00:21:19,356 Speaker 1: last thirty years, you know, marinating in Russia, Limbaugh, then 340 00:21:19,436 --> 00:21:22,516 Speaker 1: it's an appealing idea and one that an awful lot 341 00:21:22,516 --> 00:21:25,916 Speaker 1: of people stuck with, including the President in the United States. 342 00:21:26,396 --> 00:21:29,796 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about the way people form 343 00:21:29,916 --> 00:21:35,036 Speaker 1: their commitments to bake picture questions like climate change and 344 00:21:35,116 --> 00:21:38,396 Speaker 1: its relationship to the political tribe that they belong to. 345 00:21:38,956 --> 00:21:41,676 Speaker 1: I've been struck in recent conversations I've had with friends. 346 00:21:42,196 --> 00:21:45,596 Speaker 1: There are people who are sort of left science skeptics. 347 00:21:45,876 --> 00:21:48,556 Speaker 1: For example, they might be skeptical of vaccines. There are 348 00:21:48,556 --> 00:21:51,156 Speaker 1: antivactors left and right, but there is a thing of 349 00:21:51,836 --> 00:21:54,436 Speaker 1: skeptical of certain respects of science people on the left, 350 00:21:54,796 --> 00:21:57,916 Speaker 1: and yet those same people tend to be very clear 351 00:21:58,196 --> 00:22:01,396 Speaker 1: that climate change science is real, whereas on the right, 352 00:22:01,756 --> 00:22:04,516 Speaker 1: I would expect a pretty close affiliation between people who 353 00:22:04,516 --> 00:22:08,116 Speaker 1: are skeptical of science on say, vaccination, and are also 354 00:22:08,236 --> 00:22:10,916 Speaker 1: very skeptical of climate change. So there's a kind of 355 00:22:11,036 --> 00:22:15,436 Speaker 1: fascinating mismatch there. My working hypothesis, and I have no 356 00:22:15,476 --> 00:22:18,276 Speaker 1: idea if there's anything to this about why that might be. So, 357 00:22:18,756 --> 00:22:22,636 Speaker 1: is that people form their beliefs in this tribal way, 358 00:22:22,796 --> 00:22:26,516 Speaker 1: almost in the way that they form religious beliefs. Well, 359 00:22:26,556 --> 00:22:28,996 Speaker 1: I think that actually you have an interesting kind of 360 00:22:29,076 --> 00:22:33,636 Speaker 1: natural experiment here with climate change about where the source 361 00:22:33,676 --> 00:22:36,316 Speaker 1: of some of this all comes from. If you look 362 00:22:36,316 --> 00:22:40,436 Speaker 1: at around the world, very very very few places, really 363 00:22:40,556 --> 00:22:44,556 Speaker 1: none have this level of skepticism around climate change that 364 00:22:44,596 --> 00:22:47,036 Speaker 1: we do here. It was really only in the US 365 00:22:47,036 --> 00:22:51,876 Speaker 1: that climate denial became a serious thing. You know, look 366 00:22:51,916 --> 00:22:55,156 Speaker 1: at conservative leaders and other parts of the world. Angelo 367 00:22:55,236 --> 00:23:00,676 Speaker 1: mercal conservative and yet very powerful voice for action on 368 00:23:00,836 --> 00:23:03,636 Speaker 1: climate change, and you can have a dozen different examples. 369 00:23:04,916 --> 00:23:08,396 Speaker 1: I think that it's pretty clear in retrospect, thanks to 370 00:23:08,436 --> 00:23:12,116 Speaker 1: a lot of great investigative reporting, what the source of 371 00:23:12,156 --> 00:23:15,796 Speaker 1: that is. Thirty years ago we now know the fossil 372 00:23:15,836 --> 00:23:19,676 Speaker 1: fuel industry knew everything there was to know about climate change. Exxon, 373 00:23:19,956 --> 00:23:23,076 Speaker 1: biggest company in the world in the nineteen eighties, had 374 00:23:23,076 --> 00:23:26,156 Speaker 1: a great scientific staff. Their product was carbon. Of course, 375 00:23:26,196 --> 00:23:28,796 Speaker 1: they set out to understand it, and understand it they did. 376 00:23:29,276 --> 00:23:34,516 Speaker 1: They've discovered in their archives graphs that show with unerring 377 00:23:34,556 --> 00:23:38,036 Speaker 1: accuracy what the CO two concentration and temperature would be 378 00:23:38,076 --> 00:23:40,436 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty. But of course what they didn't do 379 00:23:40,956 --> 00:23:44,196 Speaker 1: was tell any of the rest of us. Instead, the 380 00:23:44,316 --> 00:23:48,236 Speaker 1: industry spent a huge amount of money building the kind 381 00:23:48,276 --> 00:23:52,356 Speaker 1: of architecture of deceit and denial and disinformation that kept 382 00:23:52,476 --> 00:23:55,636 Speaker 1: us locked for thirty years in a totally phony debate 383 00:23:55,676 --> 00:23:58,876 Speaker 1: about whether or not global warming was real, a debate 384 00:23:58,916 --> 00:24:01,436 Speaker 1: that both sides knew the answer to at the beginning. 385 00:24:01,756 --> 00:24:04,316 Speaker 1: It's just one of them was willing to lie. And 386 00:24:04,516 --> 00:24:07,476 Speaker 1: when you're willing to lie in that way and poison 387 00:24:07,516 --> 00:24:10,276 Speaker 1: the debate in that way, and when you have unlimited funds, 388 00:24:11,036 --> 00:24:13,716 Speaker 1: when you're able to go hire everybody who told the 389 00:24:13,756 --> 00:24:16,356 Speaker 1: same lie about the tobacco industry and put them to 390 00:24:16,396 --> 00:24:20,156 Speaker 1: work in this new context, well you get things done. 391 00:24:20,636 --> 00:24:24,636 Speaker 1: The Koch brothers, who are the biggest influences in our 392 00:24:24,676 --> 00:24:27,756 Speaker 1: political system probably over the last twenty or thirty years, 393 00:24:27,996 --> 00:24:30,636 Speaker 1: are also our biggest oil and gas parents. I mean, 394 00:24:30,756 --> 00:24:33,636 Speaker 1: that's how they had the money to buy a political 395 00:24:33,716 --> 00:24:36,716 Speaker 1: party and take physics and turn it into a part 396 00:24:36,756 --> 00:24:40,156 Speaker 1: as an issue. So I think that it's worth always 397 00:24:40,556 --> 00:24:43,676 Speaker 1: bearing that in mind, that we've been guided down this 398 00:24:43,876 --> 00:24:46,916 Speaker 1: path by people who knew precisely what they were doing. 399 00:24:47,436 --> 00:24:50,356 Speaker 1: So I just want to close by asking you, do 400 00:24:50,396 --> 00:24:54,036 Speaker 1: you feel more optimistic about climate change than you did 401 00:24:54,156 --> 00:24:58,156 Speaker 1: when you first began to write and advocate about the subject. 402 00:24:59,436 --> 00:25:02,396 Speaker 1: I feel way less optimistic, I fear, than I did 403 00:25:02,796 --> 00:25:05,756 Speaker 1: back in nineteen eighty nine, when I wasn't very optimistic then. 404 00:25:05,836 --> 00:25:07,756 Speaker 1: I mean, I wrote the first book about this, and 405 00:25:07,796 --> 00:25:12,636 Speaker 1: its cheerful title was the End of Nature. But I 406 00:25:12,676 --> 00:25:17,396 Speaker 1: would not have predicted either how fast change was going 407 00:25:17,436 --> 00:25:20,476 Speaker 1: to come. It turns out that scientists are conservative by 408 00:25:20,556 --> 00:25:26,476 Speaker 1: nature and dramatically under predict not overestimate change one faces, 409 00:25:27,116 --> 00:25:30,436 Speaker 1: and I would not have predicted just how sclerotic our 410 00:25:30,516 --> 00:25:34,996 Speaker 1: political systems, especially the US, would be in response that 411 00:25:35,036 --> 00:25:39,636 Speaker 1: we would be warned powerfully of a huge crisis and 412 00:25:39,676 --> 00:25:43,316 Speaker 1: then do nothing about it. On the other hand, the 413 00:25:43,476 --> 00:25:48,276 Speaker 1: thing that makes me hopeful that at the very least 414 00:25:48,276 --> 00:25:50,996 Speaker 1: will make a fight out of this has been the 415 00:25:51,116 --> 00:25:54,516 Speaker 1: rise over the last decade of movements to try and 416 00:25:54,676 --> 00:25:57,676 Speaker 1: do something about it, because that's clearly what it's going 417 00:25:57,756 --> 00:26:00,956 Speaker 1: to take now. I tried to help start that process 418 00:26:00,956 --> 00:26:03,836 Speaker 1: with one of the first iterations of this three fifty 419 00:26:03,836 --> 00:26:06,876 Speaker 1: dot org, which became the first kind of global grassroots 420 00:26:06,876 --> 00:26:13,236 Speaker 1: climate movement, and that's made really, really really gratifying for 421 00:26:13,356 --> 00:26:15,916 Speaker 1: me to watch the emergence of so many others in 422 00:26:15,956 --> 00:26:20,036 Speaker 1: the last few years, to watch extinction rebellion, to watch 423 00:26:20,116 --> 00:26:23,556 Speaker 1: the Green New Deal in the Sunrise movement in this country, 424 00:26:23,756 --> 00:26:29,796 Speaker 1: to watch the almost miraculous emergence of this cadre of 425 00:26:29,836 --> 00:26:33,036 Speaker 1: millions upon millions of high school students and junior high 426 00:26:33,036 --> 00:26:37,796 Speaker 1: school students around the world demanding change. So I don't 427 00:26:37,836 --> 00:26:41,396 Speaker 1: know what that adds up to in terms of optimism 428 00:26:41,436 --> 00:26:44,956 Speaker 1: and pessimism. We're in a very difficult place where we 429 00:26:45,076 --> 00:26:48,836 Speaker 1: have to move very very fast, and as with coronavirus 430 00:26:49,196 --> 00:26:52,676 Speaker 1: having delayed this long, there's no longer any outcome that 431 00:26:52,756 --> 00:26:56,356 Speaker 1: doesn't involve lots and lots of trauma, lots and lots 432 00:26:56,356 --> 00:27:00,956 Speaker 1: of damage. But we know what to do in the 433 00:27:01,036 --> 00:27:06,076 Speaker 1: broadest terms. We have the resources, the technologies and things 434 00:27:06,076 --> 00:27:10,636 Speaker 1: that we could employ, and we've built movements that can 435 00:27:10,636 --> 00:27:14,916 Speaker 1: try and push political will in the right direction. It's 436 00:27:15,076 --> 00:27:19,356 Speaker 1: a titanic battle, maybe the most titanic battle that human 437 00:27:19,396 --> 00:27:23,796 Speaker 1: beings have ever engaged in, and we don't know the outcome. 438 00:27:24,156 --> 00:27:29,916 Speaker 1: It's not like other political questions where over time you 439 00:27:30,156 --> 00:27:33,716 Speaker 1: had some sense that the right thing was eventually going 440 00:27:33,756 --> 00:27:36,476 Speaker 1: to happen. We don't know that we can do it 441 00:27:36,516 --> 00:27:39,916 Speaker 1: fast enough. We're going to find out, and the only 442 00:27:39,996 --> 00:27:42,756 Speaker 1: variable we can affect is how many of us push 443 00:27:42,836 --> 00:27:49,796 Speaker 1: how hard for change, and that's why we push hard. Bill. 444 00:27:49,836 --> 00:27:52,236 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for your analysis of where we 445 00:27:52,316 --> 00:27:55,996 Speaker 1: stand on climate in the moment of Corona, and thank 446 00:27:56,036 --> 00:27:59,036 Speaker 1: you much more fundamentally for all of your work over 447 00:27:59,076 --> 00:28:01,876 Speaker 1: these years to draw attention to the immediacy of much. 448 00:28:03,116 --> 00:28:06,236 Speaker 1: Reflecting on my conversation with Bill, I wish he had 449 00:28:06,276 --> 00:28:09,756 Speaker 1: been able to end in a more optimistic place than 450 00:28:09,836 --> 00:28:13,876 Speaker 1: he did. I myself walked away from our conversation shocked 451 00:28:13,876 --> 00:28:17,476 Speaker 1: by one fact and scared by another. It turns out 452 00:28:17,516 --> 00:28:20,476 Speaker 1: that not driving too much, not flying too much really 453 00:28:20,476 --> 00:28:23,516 Speaker 1: don't have the transformative degree of impact that I might 454 00:28:23,556 --> 00:28:27,676 Speaker 1: have imagined otherwise. And I'm terrified by the reality that 455 00:28:27,716 --> 00:28:31,996 Speaker 1: the only way to transform our global emissions is by 456 00:28:32,036 --> 00:28:36,476 Speaker 1: a major, long term generational investment in the transition to 457 00:28:36,596 --> 00:28:39,956 Speaker 1: solar power and to win power. Because that would have 458 00:28:39,956 --> 00:28:42,836 Speaker 1: been challenging under the best of circumstances. But at a 459 00:28:42,876 --> 00:28:46,276 Speaker 1: moment when the world is borrowing against our future in 460 00:28:46,396 --> 00:28:50,996 Speaker 1: unprecedented ways in order to avoid an immediate crisis of 461 00:28:51,076 --> 00:28:55,396 Speaker 1: depression like magnitude, it's going to be much more difficult 462 00:28:55,676 --> 00:28:59,916 Speaker 1: to muster public support for a long term, extremely expensive 463 00:28:59,956 --> 00:29:04,276 Speaker 1: investment in the transformation of how we generate and store energy. 464 00:29:05,076 --> 00:29:07,196 Speaker 1: Contrary to what sometimes may seem to be the case 465 00:29:07,236 --> 00:29:10,316 Speaker 1: in the middle of this crisis, there actually be some 466 00:29:10,516 --> 00:29:13,916 Speaker 1: finite limitation on the degree to which we can borrow 467 00:29:13,956 --> 00:29:16,796 Speaker 1: against our future, and the moment we start thinking to 468 00:29:16,836 --> 00:29:19,076 Speaker 1: ourselves that there might be some trade off between how 469 00:29:19,116 --> 00:29:21,836 Speaker 1: much we borrow and what our future looks like we're 470 00:29:21,836 --> 00:29:24,596 Speaker 1: going to see a softening of willingness to make major, 471 00:29:24,716 --> 00:29:29,316 Speaker 1: long term generational investments in climate change. If there's a 472 00:29:29,356 --> 00:29:32,236 Speaker 1: glimmer of a hint of something positive to say here, 473 00:29:32,756 --> 00:29:35,316 Speaker 1: it's that we are all recognizing in the midst of 474 00:29:35,316 --> 00:29:39,196 Speaker 1: this coronavirus crisis that we do need to listen to scientists, 475 00:29:39,356 --> 00:29:42,236 Speaker 1: and we do need to rely on governments in order 476 00:29:42,276 --> 00:29:46,196 Speaker 1: to coordinate our action. Coordinated action and reliance on science 477 00:29:46,276 --> 00:29:48,876 Speaker 1: are going to be crucial to any kind of productive 478 00:29:48,876 --> 00:29:52,076 Speaker 1: response to the climate change challenge that we face. I 479 00:29:52,116 --> 00:29:54,676 Speaker 1: wish I could conclude with something profoundly optimistic to say, 480 00:29:55,036 --> 00:29:58,556 Speaker 1: but if Bill couldn't, I certainly can't either. Until the 481 00:29:58,596 --> 00:30:01,596 Speaker 1: next time I speak to you, be careful, be safe, 482 00:30:01,836 --> 00:30:05,156 Speaker 1: and be well. Deep Background is brought to you by 483 00:30:05,196 --> 00:30:09,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia gene Cott, with research 484 00:30:09,236 --> 00:30:12,436 Speaker 1: help from Zooe Winn and mastering by Jason Gambrel and 485 00:30:12,516 --> 00:30:16,996 Speaker 1: Martin Gonzalez. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. Our theme music 486 00:30:17,076 --> 00:30:20,116 Speaker 1: is composed by Luis Garratt. Special thanks to the Pushkin 487 00:30:20,156 --> 00:30:25,076 Speaker 1: Brass Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg and Mia Loebell. I'm Noah Feldman. 488 00:30:25,476 --> 00:30:28,436 Speaker 1: I also write a regular column for Bloomberg Opinion, which 489 00:30:28,436 --> 00:30:32,196 Speaker 1: you can find at Bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. To 490 00:30:32,196 --> 00:30:35,716 Speaker 1: discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, go to Bloomberg dot 491 00:30:35,796 --> 00:30:40,036 Speaker 1: com slash podcasts. And one last thing. I just wrote 492 00:30:40,036 --> 00:30:43,356 Speaker 1: a book called The Arab Winter, A Tragedy. I would 493 00:30:43,356 --> 00:30:45,436 Speaker 1: be delighted if you checked it out. You can always 494 00:30:45,476 --> 00:30:47,836 Speaker 1: let me know what you think on Twitter about this episode, 495 00:30:47,996 --> 00:30:51,596 Speaker 1: or the book or anything else. My handle is Noah R. Feldman. 496 00:30:52,076 --> 00:30:53,556 Speaker 1: This is deep background