Speaker 1: My name is Alex, and I have more than one partner.
Speaker 1: Nor no all right, will be all right soever? No
Speaker 1: be al alright, no Molly all right ever. I was
Speaker 1: raised in a family that, you know, my mom my
Speaker 1: dad were always together and it was always just kind
Speaker 1: of like super monogamous and uh, and I kind of
Speaker 1: picked up that same spirit. But when we were researching
Speaker 1: this episode, UM, there's a lot of really cool ideas
Speaker 1: that kind of came to my mind. The same way
Speaker 1: that people might have a spouse or a sexual partner,
Speaker 1: they might also have a best friend or a friend
Speaker 1: they play video games with, or a friend that they
Speaker 1: do certain activities with. And it started making me think
Speaker 1: about kind of the purpose for people in your lives.
Speaker 1: And that's why really was so excited to do this episode, UM,
Speaker 1: expanding kind of what relationships are in what they mean. So,
Speaker 1: while I have a girlfriend and I am a very
Speaker 1: monogamous minded person, I was so excited to kind of
Speaker 1: hear the reasoning and the um experience in life experience
Speaker 1: behind people who have different types of relationships. UM. And
Speaker 1: so this isn't really a story time because this is
Speaker 1: something that I'm really here to learn with you guys.
Speaker 1: Usually I have a real nice, long story about my
Speaker 1: experience in the field, but today I'm gonna let my
Speaker 1: guests do the talking. So this just got me thinking,
Speaker 1: is one partner enough? And what's it like to actually
Speaker 1: have more than one partner? What's up, y'all? It's Alex
Speaker 1: i oo here, this is my podcast. Let's get into
Speaker 1: it where we get into everything, especially things that I
Speaker 1: have no experience on. And today we're talking about O
Speaker 1: S O S. You're gonna hear that a lot in
Speaker 1: today's episode. It stands for other significant others. Like I
Speaker 1: said in my story, I don't have a lot of
Speaker 1: experience in this. I'm actually really excited to learn more,
Speaker 1: more and more about it. And I'm gonna be learning
Speaker 1: from not one, not two, which is our normal number,
Speaker 1: but three amazing guests. Uh and I want to introduce
Speaker 1: you to them right now. First up, we have a
Speaker 1: stand up comedian who's also the host of several podcasts,
Speaker 1: including The Male Gaze and Who's Your God. He's also
Speaker 1: been featured on Comedy Central and was a field correspondent
Speaker 1: for I Love You America with Sarah Silverman. The one
Speaker 1: and Only Steve Hernandez. What's up? Man, Hey all, that's
Speaker 1: great to be here. Thanks for having you. Are fortunate
Speaker 1: enough to actually have a real personal connection to another
Speaker 1: one of our guests. She is a Los Angeles based
Speaker 1: comedian host of What's Your Sign, a comedy astrology podcast.
Speaker 1: She's also been featured in Nylon, Bustle, The New York Times,
Speaker 1: Women's health magazine, Vogue, and Cosmopolitan. Julia Lokan, how are you?
Speaker 1: I'm good? Thank you so much for having me. You
Speaker 1: guys got a petty I mean combined. We're gonna get
Speaker 1: into your relationship in general, but just pedigree alone. You
Speaker 1: guys got just a full gamut of success, solid, solid credits. Uh.
Speaker 1: And on top of those credits that you guys share,
Speaker 1: we have one more guest with us. The author of
Speaker 1: the best selling book The All Or Nothing Marriage, How
Speaker 1: the Best Marriages Work, professor at Northwestern University, as well
Speaker 1: as a social scientists studying romantic relationships. He's published over
Speaker 1: a hundred fIF Geez, Louise, I'm looking at this. This
Speaker 1: is crazy, how much how much work has been done
Speaker 1: amongst my three guests. He's published over a hundred and
Speaker 1: fifties scientific papers and as a contributor to the op
Speaker 1: ed page of the New York Times. Eli Finkel, how
Speaker 1: are you, Eli? I'm doing well. I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1: Not only am I intimidated, but I'm very excited to
Speaker 1: to learn about about this topic about open relationships and
Speaker 1: other significant others. First up, Steve and Julia, You guys
Speaker 1: and myself are going to be talking about opening up
Speaker 1: your first hand experience in relationships that I can't speak
Speaker 1: on UH. And then we're gonna take a break and
Speaker 1: we're gonna come back, and Eli, you and I are
Speaker 1: going to be talking about the complications of UH and
Speaker 1: the intricate I would say intricacies more than complications of
Speaker 1: different types of relationships. And then, last, but not least,
Speaker 1: we got we're talking love hacks and it's gonna be
Speaker 1: all four of us and we're just gonna be figuring
Speaker 1: out how the best relationships work. Well. Um, but before
Speaker 1: we get into that, I have a question that I
Speaker 1: ask all of my guests, and it's pretty simple question.
Speaker 1: It is, what have you been doing this week to
Speaker 1: improve yourself? Julia, you seem like you have an answer
Speaker 1: for us. I do. I have lots of answers. I've
Speaker 1: adopted like a real uh mantra for the year. Not
Speaker 1: a resolution per se, but something that I'm constantly kind
Speaker 1: of trying to do, which is systems not stories. So
Speaker 1: I think I make up a lot of like negative
Speaker 1: self talk stories that end up persisting problems instead of
Speaker 1: solving them. So I'm trying to come up with like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I haven't been posting enough on social media. So instead
Speaker 1: of thinking like, oh, I'm bad at that, I'm going
Speaker 1: to create a schedule for myself and say, like Monday,
Speaker 1: I need to post this thing. Tuesday, I need to
Speaker 1: do this. Um, I've been feeling bad physically, and so
Speaker 1: I did yoga today. That's another one where I was like,
Speaker 1: that's a system over a story, instead of making up
Speaker 1: a story about how I'm a terrible person who doesn't
Speaker 1: take care of themselves. My friend was teaching a yoga
Speaker 1: class and I took that yoga class. I like that
Speaker 1: systems over stories. That's a I've never even heard of
Speaker 1: that before, but that makes so much sense as you
Speaker 1: explained it. I love that. I love that, Uh, Steve,
Speaker 1: you got something for us. Yeah, I've got a few things.
Speaker 1: I think in the middle of this pandemic and everything,
Speaker 1: especially it goes on longer and longer. I've been making
Speaker 1: it a real habit to reach out when I start
Speaker 1: to feel bad, when I start to feel anxious or depressed. So, uh,
Speaker 1: not only have been I've been making phone calls to
Speaker 1: my friends with especially I think as a as a man,
Speaker 1: men don't typically do this kind of thing, but I
Speaker 1: have been making phone calls. But twice this week I
Speaker 1: met my friends out socially distanced over at the Silver
Speaker 1: Lake Reservoir and we went for a two a walk.
Speaker 1: But we're able to talk for half an hour and
Speaker 1: then go, you know, on the two or three mile walk.
Speaker 1: It takes about an hour. And you know, no matter
Speaker 1: what anyone says, any kind of thing, just moving your
Speaker 1: body and seeing a friend because we can't do that anymore.
Speaker 1: It energizes you and makes you feel so good. And
Speaker 1: if you're feeling hopeless or anxious or depressed even a
Speaker 1: little bit, remembering that you're not in the Salona, that
Speaker 1: people love you in this world. It's been. It's it's
Speaker 1: it's changed the way I feel completely. Man. I love that,
Speaker 1: especially because, like you mentioned in the pandemic, it's really taken. Um.
Speaker 1: We've had episodes about it where anybody who has mental
Speaker 1: illness who's already kind of known about it and has
Speaker 1: been dealing with it, it's taken a hit and a
Speaker 1: lot of people are also now realizing um kind of
Speaker 1: the daily struggles. We just recorded an episode about about
Speaker 1: anxiety and how some of anxiety is built into everybody
Speaker 1: and some of it, especially in times like this, can
Speaker 1: really flare up. And so I think that's a great
Speaker 1: idea reaching out as huge. I started seeing a therapist
Speaker 1: in the pandemic. It was the first time that I
Speaker 1: decided to actually like reach out, reach out, and so
Speaker 1: the fact that that was your answer makes me very
Speaker 1: very happy. My friend, um Eli, how about you? What
Speaker 1: are you been doing this week to improve yourself? Well,
Speaker 1: the new academic term started this quarter and I'm teaching
Speaker 1: my undergraduate course on relationships science, the field where you
Speaker 1: use data to try to figure out what works and relationships.
Speaker 1: And I've been studying this stuff for over twenty years now,
Speaker 1: but I decided to do a significant overhaul on the course,
Speaker 1: especially because it's the first time I've ever taught several
Speaker 1: hundred people on zoom and it has been a blast.
Speaker 1: I've been doing a lot more work than necessary, and
Speaker 1: it's certainly paying off so far. I don't even know
Speaker 1: if I fully understand what you just said. But we're
Speaker 1: gonna unpack. We're gonna unpack all of it. Um Uh.
Speaker 1: It sounds like taking a course on on how successful
Speaker 1: relationships work. Probably is something that we should all do,
Speaker 1: and that's why we're here today talking about it. Um,
Speaker 1: we've got I'm just hyped today. We have such good energy.
Speaker 1: So let's get straight into it. Steve and Julia, let's
Speaker 1: get into talking. Eli. I'll be with you in just
Speaker 1: a sex you can sit tight. First off, you guys
Speaker 1: just got married. Congratulations, Thank you? How was? How was?
Speaker 1: What's a wedding like in in pandemic mode? What it
Speaker 1: would take me down? Take me down the road? Well,
Speaker 1: it's a real uh. I think it's like most things
Speaker 1: in in pandemic boat, it's a very much an exercise
Speaker 1: and surrender and being being okay with what you can
Speaker 1: and can't control in those kinds of things. Um, we
Speaker 1: went to Vegas and we're going to try to have
Speaker 1: a really small, intimate kind of family only ceremony in
Speaker 1: person thing, you know, obviously taking into account everything that
Speaker 1: was going on. Um. But as the numbers, particular here
Speaker 1: in l A got worse and worse, it just became
Speaker 1: apparent that that was not going to be an option. Um,
Speaker 1: but we still wanted to get married in it felt
Speaker 1: like a it's like a good way to kind of
Speaker 1: wrap up a shitty year, and we wanted to be
Speaker 1: married ads. So we decided to go to Vegas, which
Speaker 1: I'm a big Vegas person, and having like, uh, not
Speaker 1: a shotgun Vegas wedding, but some kind of like quicky
Speaker 1: Vegas wedding is like, uh a thing that I thought
Speaker 1: would be fun um. And it was very funny. It
Speaker 1: was like I mean not it was very special and
Speaker 1: romantic and sweet too, but it's just it was a
Speaker 1: really surreal you know, being in Vegas during your pandemic.
Speaker 1: I think you like I it just hit me on
Speaker 1: a lot more levels than I was expecting because you're
Speaker 1: seeing people. It was a weird thing to see people
Speaker 1: still kind of out acting like it's not a pandemic
Speaker 1: and all of the things that come with that. But
Speaker 1: it was also a really great I think, like I said,
Speaker 1: exercise and surrender of really being like that what's important
Speaker 1: about this isn't all of the other things like we
Speaker 1: wore Dodger jerseys and we got our rings when we
Speaker 1: were there and all of these things that it's like
Speaker 1: it was special because it was us getting married and
Speaker 1: professing our love to each other and doing this thing.
Speaker 1: It wasn't what we were wearing or any of those things.
Speaker 1: So it was a real like put your money where
Speaker 1: your mouth is kind of exercise for me. I think. Ah,
Speaker 1: And how long have you guys been together? Exactly? Six
Speaker 1: years here? Six years? Six years? And so was there
Speaker 1: any part of you guys that I know you had
Speaker 1: mentioned you wanted to wait. Seemed like of great time
Speaker 1: to to make something good out of the year. But
Speaker 1: was there any part of you guys that said, hey,
Speaker 1: we should just wait until it's until pandemics over so
Speaker 1: we can have the family and the party and the
Speaker 1: and the whole nine. I mean, we're still going to
Speaker 1: do that. That's that's the only reason. Julian her wedding dress,
Speaker 1: she has like a nice wedding dress and everything. We're
Speaker 1: still going to do that, God willing at in New
Speaker 1: Year's Eve next year. Everyone will be okay. By then,
Speaker 1: it'll be safe. But yeah, so we did it because
Speaker 1: I just I didn't want to call this. We only
Speaker 1: got engaged in early November. I just I didn't want
Speaker 1: to call her fiance. For a whole year we lived
Speaker 1: together already. She's been my wife in my heart for
Speaker 1: a while now, so it's just felt silly to me.
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm not gonna I was a little
Speaker 1: cautious because I felt bad about going to Vegas. But
Speaker 1: we went. We spent the night in a hotel and
Speaker 1: then our appointment was at twelve thirty pm, and then
Speaker 1: we got the heck out of Vegas. So I think
Speaker 1: there was just that thing. It was funny because we're like,
Speaker 1: let's go, let's do what. I wanted this to be official,
Speaker 1: and we did it. And then when we get to
Speaker 1: this little white chapel and this uh, super sweet, hilarious
Speaker 1: little Filipino woman in a glittery like bow tie was
Speaker 1: marrying us. And then she she was really great because
Speaker 1: she but she was rushing us too. She's like all right, now,
Speaker 1: walked down the aisle and she ran up front and
Speaker 1: press play on the CD player and the song played,
Speaker 1: and then she's like say something sweet to her, say
Speaker 1: it from your heart. And then I look into Julia's
Speaker 1: face and as fun as this, and I was like,
Speaker 1: this is just to make it official, but the real
Speaker 1: weddings next year. When I looked in her face, I
Speaker 1: was I was like, surprised at how moved I was.
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, the real weddings next year. But
Speaker 1: also I can't believe this. We're really getting married and
Speaker 1: then absolutely nobody in the world that I would rather
Speaker 1: be partnered with them, this perfect woman right here. So
Speaker 1: I was surprised at how how much emotion and how
Speaker 1: much is still right there and that thing that we
Speaker 1: want to do to be fun and to make it
Speaker 1: official with paperwork, but I was surprised at how swelled
Speaker 1: I was with emotion. She was like, speak from your
Speaker 1: heart and you gotta believe me, Alex, I've got like
Speaker 1: the sickest like of I was already written in my head,
Speaker 1: but so I didn't want to waste it in Vegas.
Speaker 1: So I was just like mm, I just said like
Speaker 1: very simple things, but also looking to joy his face,
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm so happy that we're here right
Speaker 1: now doing this because I'm so excited to be partnered
Speaker 1: up with them. My my heart is absolutely just overflowing
Speaker 1: right now. And I said, I'm actually so glad you
Speaker 1: guys said that too, because and I don't and I
Speaker 1: and I really hope that nothing that I say is
Speaker 1: taken for anything other than me really being excited about
Speaker 1: learning about other types of relationships. But I'm so glad
Speaker 1: that you started with that because your relationship isn't uh
Speaker 1: is not necessarily the I don't. I don't even know
Speaker 1: like a traditional relation. I don't know how, but maybe
Speaker 1: it's more traditional. We're gonna learn. But um, I want
Speaker 1: to get this right, Steve. You are open and Julia
Speaker 1: is not open. Is that correct? Yeah? I would say
Speaker 1: that I identify as non monogamous, polyamorous, and Julia at
Speaker 1: this point does not, So yeah, I would say that's
Speaker 1: fair to say. So I would love to to just
Speaker 1: break that down and conventional that's the word I was
Speaker 1: I was thinking of earlier. But I want to break
Speaker 1: that down because I'm so glad that you started with
Speaker 1: how how loving and incredible, even if it was in Vegas.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you talked about how rich your love
Speaker 1: is because I think a common misconception, including a misconception
Speaker 1: that I had for the longest time until I actually
Speaker 1: made friends with somebody a few years back who was
Speaker 1: in an open relationship and kind of schooled me a
Speaker 1: little bit. A common misconception with an open relationship is
Speaker 1: this whole like, well, they're not really. It's just they're
Speaker 1: like into each other, but they're not that into each other,
Speaker 1: but they don't want to not be with each other. Like.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of misconceptions, and so I'm glad that
Speaker 1: we're here um talking about and unwrapping it. Um. But first,
Speaker 1: before we get into the nitty gritty of that, I'd
Speaker 1: like to take it all the way back to kind
Speaker 1: of the early stages of your guys relationship, Julia. On
Speaker 1: your end, what was that conversation, Like, at what point
Speaker 1: did you guys have the conversation of being polyamorous or
Speaker 1: or monogamous? And you know, were you guys already in love?
Speaker 1: Was it right at the beginning on the first date?
Speaker 1: Walk me through that. Well, we're both um, stand up comedians,
Speaker 1: and that means that we uh, I guess thankful. I
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know if thankfully it is the
Speaker 1: right word, but I think I think thankfully. I mean
Speaker 1: I don't think we could do it any other way. Um,
Speaker 1: but I these are things that I knew about Steve
Speaker 1: before we were in a relationship together, because you talk
Speaker 1: about yourself in your material, so I was aware that
Speaker 1: he had been in previous, um, non monogamous relationships, and
Speaker 1: when we got together, it wasn't necessarily like an explicit
Speaker 1: conversation that we had, but I do feel like it
Speaker 1: was something that I knew was part of him and
Speaker 1: part of his baggage so to speak, that was coming
Speaker 1: with or like just part of who he is, and
Speaker 1: that that was something that would likely come up and
Speaker 1: then um, but it wasn't, uh, you know. I feel
Speaker 1: like it was more of a thing of like, yes,
Speaker 1: that's something that I'm aware of, will kind of cross
Speaker 1: that bridge when we get to it, because I think, uh,
Speaker 1: it wasn't something that was happening when we were first together,
Speaker 1: but as obviously we've been together longer, there's been just different,
Speaker 1: I think, different conversations about it at different points, sometimes
Speaker 1: around like is this something that you um can be
Speaker 1: okay with? Is kind of the I guess the main
Speaker 1: question that would come up at different points as we
Speaker 1: got further along in our relationship. So the thing that
Speaker 1: I'm really interested in earning about especially with you. I,
Speaker 1: Like I mentioned, I have made friends with people who
Speaker 1: are in open relationships, but I've never made friends with
Speaker 1: somebody who's in a I guess partially open relationship. I
Speaker 1: don't know if that's the proper term for it. Can
Speaker 1: you talk about your choice to be partially open and
Speaker 1: why that was still important to you to remain monogamous
Speaker 1: even though you were entering this relationship. It's something for
Speaker 1: me that's just not a thing right now. I can't
Speaker 1: say how I'm going to feel, you know, further down
Speaker 1: the line. And I think that's kind of my feeling
Speaker 1: about the whole thing in general, is more just like
Speaker 1: it's not really an issue for me, not not the
Speaker 1: practice in and of itself, but I mean the the
Speaker 1: to me. I don't I'm not like struggling with monogamy
Speaker 1: or anything. I don't. I don't necessarily think that that's
Speaker 1: always going to be the case or whatever, but I mean,
Speaker 1: especially literally right now, in the pandemic and whatnot, Like
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm certainly certainly not open, but I think
Speaker 1: it's less. I think it's more just like a to
Speaker 1: each their own kind of thing, So it's not necessarily
Speaker 1: a decided I am monogamous. He is not kind of thing.
Speaker 1: It's more just like, if this is what you need
Speaker 1: to do, this is what you do, I don't need
Speaker 1: to do that at the time. There may again, like
Speaker 1: I said, there may come a time in the future
Speaker 1: when I when I would like to, And at that point,
Speaker 1: I'm going to be really grateful that I'm with a
Speaker 1: partner who is open to those ideas and having those discussions,
Speaker 1: because I think that that more than anything, I think
Speaker 1: being able to talk about it and being able to
Speaker 1: hold the idea of evaluating is this working for me
Speaker 1: versus these are the ways that this is supposed to go.
Speaker 1: Um is the most important thing I think for anybody,
Speaker 1: whether you're in a monogamous relationship or a non monogamous relationship, whatever,
Speaker 1: whatever kind of even casual dating sort of thing, if
Speaker 1: if the core thing for all of those things is
Speaker 1: figuring out what actually works for you and makes you
Speaker 1: feel happy and fulfilled and like you are showing up
Speaker 1: in the most hole and complete kind of way. Oh man,
Speaker 1: this is the thing, is like I really have since
Speaker 1: you guys started speaking on your relationship, I'm like, wow, again,
Speaker 1: I think it's common misconceptions by by monogamous people. They
Speaker 1: ask questions that are probably very very annoying to be asked,
Speaker 1: and they and they um, and they view things in
Speaker 1: a different way where it's I think it's very label
Speaker 1: based and it's like, well, if you're in a relationship,
Speaker 1: then it means this and it has to mean that.
Speaker 1: And what you mentioned is like, look, at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, you're with somebody who's just so open
Speaker 1: minded that says, hey, if your heart desires something and
Speaker 1: you need to follow your heart, then like you go
Speaker 1: after it. Steve, I want to switch it over to
Speaker 1: you a little bit. I have not heard the your comedy, UM,
Speaker 1: your comedy routines that involve talking about your maybe your
Speaker 1: reasoning behind being polyamorous. But can you talk me through
Speaker 1: kind of what led you to that um that answer
Speaker 1: that was something at you that you desired. Um, I
Speaker 1: think it's something I got into with my ex. I've
Speaker 1: been doing this for about fifteen years and I was
Speaker 1: married previously, we were open. That wasn't the reason why
Speaker 1: we ended. We ended because I started doing comedy, which
Speaker 1: is a terrible life. I wouldn't I wouldn't put it
Speaker 1: on anybody I really do. I feel bad about it
Speaker 1: with my ex wife that I started comedy after we
Speaker 1: got married, and it was really like the worst thing
Speaker 1: you could put on someone but her. Her and I
Speaker 1: were open as well. Uh we stumbled into it. Uh um,
Speaker 1: you know, we stumbled into it. We started doing all
Speaker 1: the other things. And then when I was married, I
Speaker 1: was like a regular kind of anybody who would identify
Speaker 1: as polyamorous. All the kind of things you've heard are
Speaker 1: are like the scummy jokes or whatever. I was like
Speaker 1: the guy who was trying to, like ten years ago,
Speaker 1: fifteen years ago, I was trying to talk everyone into it,
Speaker 1: like this is like the best lifestyle for everyone. Everyone
Speaker 1: needs to think this way. It is like that. I
Speaker 1: now understand that that's absolutely not the case, and and
Speaker 1: that my how I define it as constantly evolving as well.
Speaker 1: I really love relationships and I really love people, and
Speaker 1: to me, ultimately, I want each relationship to be what
Speaker 1: it what it can be, and if that includes physicalness,
Speaker 1: that's okay. If it's a romantic relationship without touching, I
Speaker 1: would like it to be that kind of a thing too.
Speaker 1: I understand most people have a hard time just finding
Speaker 1: one partner so I know how greedy it looks for
Speaker 1: me to say I want like more than this perfect person.
Speaker 1: I mean, people would be like you, piece of ship
Speaker 1: you got, Julie, You've got the perfect person, and you
Speaker 1: still want more, And it's like I don't. I mean, yes,
Speaker 1: absolutely that's the case. I want the most out of life,
Speaker 1: and I want all my relationships to be authentically what
Speaker 1: both people want them to be. All makes sense, I
Speaker 1: mean I think that's and and that's why I want
Speaker 1: to walk into this next question kind of as if
Speaker 1: not as a curiosity, but you the way that you
Speaker 1: just explained it. Um, I think of a pretty common
Speaker 1: question that would be asked is like, isn't isn't an
Speaker 1: open relationship just basically like free pass to cheat? But
Speaker 1: the way that you explained it, it kind of feels
Speaker 1: a lot more ethical then then then the free pass
Speaker 1: the cheat type of things. So can you explain to
Speaker 1: me how how you differentiated that and knowing like you mentioned,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like people who kind of mask
Speaker 1: an open relationship with just not necessarily being able to
Speaker 1: be faithful to one person and so they just kind
Speaker 1: of go off. Can you explain to me the difference
Speaker 1: between the two of those things. Well, yeah, I can't.
Speaker 1: I can only tell you about my own journey. And
Speaker 1: there was a time when I was married previously, I
Speaker 1: remember like looking for people to hook up with. UM.
Speaker 1: I don't really do that anymore. It's become more of
Speaker 1: a philosophical thing for me. I very much want to
Speaker 1: honor our relationship. UM. I do know. Sometimes I di
Speaker 1: did somebody last year for about ten months, three months
Speaker 1: for the pandemic, and then kind of that seeped into
Speaker 1: the pandemic. We ended up having to end it because
Speaker 1: we just couldn't really see each other that much too.
Speaker 1: It got But when I was dating that person, uh,
Speaker 1: with Julia, I would tell her, you know, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: see this person this day, or I'm gonna go call
Speaker 1: her in the other room. And Julia would be okay
Speaker 1: with it sometimes and sometimes she you could tell that
Speaker 1: it bothered her. And so for me, I I know
Speaker 1: understand why it bothers her, because I think society and
Speaker 1: how we view romance has put so much weight on
Speaker 1: the romantic relationship that she's bound to think that I'm
Speaker 1: not enough for this person. So I understand that. UM,
Speaker 1: And those times I would come back and we would
Speaker 1: talk for a couple of hours or an hour, and
Speaker 1: then she would be okay and so um to me,
Speaker 1: I want to live the fullest life I can live.
Speaker 1: I I want Julia to be happy, but I do
Speaker 1: know what she feels hurt and stuff like that that
Speaker 1: it's based on stuff that I don't believe, and I
Speaker 1: don't think she really leaves. And I mean, the newest
Speaker 1: thing for me in the past year or two is
Speaker 1: I really want the people that I date or sleep
Speaker 1: with to be happy and whole too. There's been a
Speaker 1: lot of people that will agree to something like this,
Speaker 1: but I know ultimately they don't understand what they're signing
Speaker 1: up for that they end up falling in love, they
Speaker 1: end up wanting this other thing. And so the older
Speaker 1: I get, the longer I do it, the more I
Speaker 1: understand to ethically do this where everybody involved is gonna
Speaker 1: be happy and their expectations are gonna be mad. I
Speaker 1: think that it becomes a more rare and more rare opportunity.
Speaker 1: But I'm so glad the foundation of this is laid
Speaker 1: because I do believe I'm gonna be able to have
Speaker 1: those two or three other people in my life in
Speaker 1: the next twenty years where they're gonna be like different
Speaker 1: kinds of soul mates, like great friends that I happen
Speaker 1: to be able to have sex with and kiss sometimes.
Speaker 1: But to me, it's all about intimacy and it's all
Speaker 1: about being honest and open about all of those things,
Speaker 1: so that nobody old deceived or taking advantage of. You
Speaker 1: had mentioned that, you know, you had said sometimes you
Speaker 1: call and if it's in the other room, you always
Speaker 1: give it the heads up. Are there and this is
Speaker 1: I'm bringing Julia. You're back. You're back in the conversation.
Speaker 1: Thank you? Are there any you guys have specific rules?
Speaker 1: I'm really I'm truly curious. Is it something that you
Speaker 1: set ground rules ahead of time? Um? Was there anything specifically,
Speaker 1: Julia that you said, Hey, I really want to know
Speaker 1: these things. I don't want to know these things. What
Speaker 1: are the kind of the ground rules? I think at
Speaker 1: first I definitely had more of a like I don't
Speaker 1: want to know kind of position. But the more that
Speaker 1: things unfolded, the more I was like, well, I need
Speaker 1: to know, like a little bit only for the sake
Speaker 1: of I think it's like a protective thing for sure.
Speaker 1: But then, um, you know, you talked about doing an
Speaker 1: episode on anxiety. I think a lot of times your
Speaker 1: mind can come up with way more complicated Uh. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm a story mind, storyteller. That's why I need that
Speaker 1: mantre for me. That it's easier to to have someone say, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm talking to this person. Uh, like you just some
Speaker 1: some things I don't need to know, like details, but
Speaker 1: like it's it's so funny. We're best friends too, so
Speaker 1: even this last person for instance, which I would say
Speaker 1: it's our our whole relationship. Maybe we had a donuss
Speaker 1: don't tell thing, but we really didn't. We spend We're
Speaker 1: both comics, so we spent so much time together. There
Speaker 1: wasn't there's things here and there that I would do.
Speaker 1: But this is the first person I would say that
Speaker 1: I dated. We're together, and it felt so funny because
Speaker 1: she's my best friend and we talked about everything all
Speaker 1: the time, and so she was like, at first, I
Speaker 1: don't wanna, I don't want to hear about any of this,
Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, but you know, I'm sitting
Speaker 1: here and I have a French I'm like, have a
Speaker 1: different super thing that I'm excited about, or that I
Speaker 1: have issues with our problems with and I'm like, I
Speaker 1: can't believe I can't talk to my best friend about
Speaker 1: this stuff. And so I think at some point I
Speaker 1: did start that was something we talked about, and I
Speaker 1: did start talking about it and maybe problems I was
Speaker 1: having or issues or these things coming up. And I
Speaker 1: do think that did calm you down a little bit, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it helps because I think that's what I
Speaker 1: mean where I'm like, I think in your mind, you
Speaker 1: think it helps you to not know, And me for
Speaker 1: me saying I don't want to know, um uh, I think,
Speaker 1: like I said, is definitely a protective thing. But I
Speaker 1: think also for me it was really important to try
Speaker 1: my best to not have my own preconceptions or judgments
Speaker 1: influence his experience with this other person too, because as
Speaker 1: much as you know I have, I'm very aware that
Speaker 1: even though we're literally talking about monogamy, there are these
Speaker 1: same kinds of issues for relationships. In any kind of thing.
Speaker 1: You could replace this with someone who has like a
Speaker 1: is super into sports or whatever, like, there's always going
Speaker 1: to be things that that are potential things for disconnection
Speaker 1: or potential things for you to have problems with that
Speaker 1: you that are bringing up personal triggers for you that
Speaker 1: you project onto that other person. And I going into this,
Speaker 1: I wanted to be very clear that, like, I'm going
Speaker 1: to take responsibity for whatever comes up for me and
Speaker 1: know that it's coming up because of these things, but
Speaker 1: it is not a causal thing necessarily that like he
Speaker 1: is doing this to me to hurt me, Like this
Speaker 1: is what comes up for me is my fear of
Speaker 1: abandonment when you go when you go and do something
Speaker 1: without me, I get afraid that you're gonna leave me.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that that thing isn't like that. I'm
Speaker 1: not entitled to those feelings, but I'm able to understand
Speaker 1: that I am. I am not feeling that because he's
Speaker 1: doing that. I'm feeling that because I have that fear
Speaker 1: inside of me, and that might come again. That's what
Speaker 1: I mean and saying like for someone else, that same
Speaker 1: fear of abandonment might come up when someone goes to
Speaker 1: the gym too much or whatever. Like there's it's it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to literally be seeing another person, but because
Speaker 1: it is seeing another person, I do think it kind
Speaker 1: of accelerates those things for you to to deal with them.
Speaker 1: A little bit more quickly. Um, but sorry, I went
Speaker 1: off on a tear. Uh. The like the knowing stuff.
Speaker 1: I think it does put your mind at because then
Speaker 1: you're just hearing again. You're you're allowing whatever whatever things
Speaker 1: are coming up for you are kind of creating worst
Speaker 1: case scenario sorts of things. So hearing about a person,
Speaker 1: it reminds you that they're a person. It reminds you
Speaker 1: that it's not like a boogeyman, uh, you know, like
Speaker 1: evil some somewhat saboteur coming to destroy you and your
Speaker 1: relationships and all of those kinds of things. So I
Speaker 1: think that it's still a fine line and it's it's
Speaker 1: it's up to you, the person on the receiving end
Speaker 1: will say to kind of be making sure that you
Speaker 1: are sifting through and saying, like, what's something that can
Speaker 1: be a practical ask of Like I said at one point, like, hey,
Speaker 1: could you do your best to like make these calls
Speaker 1: when I'm not here because I feel like a creep
Speaker 1: having a sit in the other rooms. Like you know,
Speaker 1: I know that you're gonna do this, but could you
Speaker 1: please that's like a practical ask versus like when you're
Speaker 1: doing this, it's hurt, you know whatever, Like those are things,
Speaker 1: what's what is okay to ask and what's not? Again,
Speaker 1: like systems versus the story. There we go, systems versus
Speaker 1: stories coming back. It's really it really is and and
Speaker 1: and I hope this is taken as a compliment. It's
Speaker 1: really cool hearing how like you guys are the most
Speaker 1: stable relationship I think I've ever seen, and it and
Speaker 1: it comes off of something that I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people either view as as different or maybe you know,
Speaker 1: all all different opinions, and it's and it's really cool
Speaker 1: just seeing how something that um that is so different
Speaker 1: than the way that I choose to express my love
Speaker 1: is still so stable and so comfortable. And it reminds
Speaker 1: me of my own relationships that I've had, and especially
Speaker 1: the relationship I'm in now that is so focused on
Speaker 1: making each other happy and also making ourselves happy. So
Speaker 1: I think that's awesome. You've already expressed and this is
Speaker 1: my last question before we take a break. Um, you've
Speaker 1: already expressed kind of the ways that it can get
Speaker 1: complicated or the anxieties about it, or um any of
Speaker 1: the problems that can come up. But what ways is
Speaker 1: as the relationship become better in this, in this partially
Speaker 1: open relationship. I am so in love with her. It
Speaker 1: makes me so like, I feel so blessed and so
Speaker 1: happy that someone would allow me to be myself in
Speaker 1: this way because because I don't you know, she she
Speaker 1: called it baggage. Really, I know she didn't mean it
Speaker 1: like that, but you know, going into it, this is
Speaker 1: kind of just how I am. And I know this
Speaker 1: is how I work best, and that I personally, uh
Speaker 1: wouldn't feel comfortable with the idea of monogamy, even just philosophically.
Speaker 1: It bothers me. So I love that she allows me
Speaker 1: to intellectually express this stuff, and you know that I'm
Speaker 1: able to go out like this, and I mean, it's
Speaker 1: just I just don't think it's gonna I feel so
Speaker 1: bad because she's all over my instagram. Alex you gotta
Speaker 1: see this instagram, but she's all over it, and I
Speaker 1: almost feel so bad because I'm so in love with her.
Speaker 1: It's so obvious that I'm in love with her that
Speaker 1: I almost don't want to see anyone else ever, because
Speaker 1: I'm like, I gotta rub it in, I gotta rub
Speaker 1: it in their face how much I love my wife,
Speaker 1: and I like an asshole. I do feel so free
Speaker 1: and able to come home and have this person is
Speaker 1: my home base and that accepts me and knows me,
Speaker 1: loves me unconditionally. To me, it is so freeing, and
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just I feel blessed. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I think that, like I said, there's nothing about it
Speaker 1: philosophically that I disagree with. To me, my my hesitations
Speaker 1: with with non monogamy open relationships is to me more
Speaker 1: about efficiency and effectiveness, and I think that it's a
Speaker 1: thing that's that Like you said, there's a there are complications,
Speaker 1: there are things like that, and it's not so much
Speaker 1: that I have no philosophical disagreements. It's more in the
Speaker 1: practice being in a non monogamous relationship. It also is
Speaker 1: held up a mirror in ways, like I've been saying,
Speaker 1: where it's like, even if it's not in our relationship,
Speaker 1: are there other areas of my life where I'm not
Speaker 1: being open in a way that I could be? Am?
Speaker 1: I am? I also like putting up barriers to connection
Speaker 1: in other ways. Maybe that that can mean literally in relationships,
Speaker 1: but also I think it's really forced me to um
Speaker 1: not forced, but forced in a lot of ways to
Speaker 1: uh like sped up. That's why I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: mean it like aggressively for but like like accelerated things
Speaker 1: to where I think, again, you can get mushier of like,
Speaker 1: oh is this I could have I could have done
Speaker 1: this like abandonment thing or self worth kind of thing.
Speaker 1: I could have projected that onto any number of things
Speaker 1: or and that's a problem that could have persisted for
Speaker 1: a bunch of years. But because again we're like dealing
Speaker 1: with it so immediately and so literally, I think it's
Speaker 1: really made me kind of um have to show up
Speaker 1: for myself in a lot of ways, and and um
Speaker 1: that I'm really happy for and really grateful for. And
Speaker 1: I'm grateful to have a partner who also like asks
Speaker 1: that of me and and wants me to be the
Speaker 1: fullest expression of who I am and the most kind
Speaker 1: of like honest, authentic someone who's like growing and challenging
Speaker 1: them selves and isn't going isn't going to let me
Speaker 1: off not growing and and addressing things because it's for
Speaker 1: it's because it's good, not not in a way because
Speaker 1: it's like, oh you need to do this, but in
Speaker 1: a way where it's like these are this is going
Speaker 1: to help you as a person. I'm like, I'm literally like,
Speaker 1: my heart is so warm right now. You guys are
Speaker 1: really it's really I'm so grateful that you guys are
Speaker 1: here just to want to expand my knowledge on this
Speaker 1: situation or on this um on this topic. And also
Speaker 1: just too, I think we need more love, Like we
Speaker 1: need more love in the world right now, and so
Speaker 1: getting to hear it from other people and like here
Speaker 1: people profess their love for each other, it's just so
Speaker 1: it's so amazing. Um, we're gonna take a quick break
Speaker 1: when we come back, I'm gonna be speaking with Eli
Speaker 1: about it's complicated, don't go anywhere. All right, we are back.
Speaker 1: This is let's get into it. And I have the
Speaker 1: one and only Eli Finkel, professor at Northwestern also the
Speaker 1: author of the All or Nothing may Ridge. Eli. We
Speaker 1: just you. You just got to listen to me speaking
Speaker 1: with Um with Steve and Julia, and uh, it just
Speaker 1: it just felt my I'm like, I'm so excited to
Speaker 1: speak with you on on the actual kind of I
Speaker 1: don't know scientific background of a relationship like that, but um,
Speaker 1: how how common are our relationships like that outside of monogamy. Well,
Speaker 1: if you're talking about non monogamous relationships in particular, I mean,
Speaker 1: they certainly go back at least till biblical times, and certainly, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, beyond that. Um, if you're talking about the
Speaker 1: sort of non monogamous relationship that Steve and Julia have,
Speaker 1: that's of the now, Um. The language that surrounds it
Speaker 1: with authenticity and growth and living a full and honest
Speaker 1: life like that. That's the language of America and the
Speaker 1: twenty one century more than it is the language of
Speaker 1: you know, King David. Yeah, and you and you talk
Speaker 1: a lot about how right now it's a lot different
Speaker 1: than the way it used to be. Society now tells
Speaker 1: us that we fall in love and the person that
Speaker 1: we choose has to be everything. It's got to be
Speaker 1: the place you find happiness, the place you go on adventure,
Speaker 1: is the place you have sex, you laugh, you're comforted,
Speaker 1: you're having intellectual conversations with and spiritually compatible all of
Speaker 1: these things, and that they should be just the one.
Speaker 1: You know, everybody talks about the one, and they talk
Speaker 1: about soul mate, and it's always a very singular term. Um.
Speaker 1: But in your book All or Nothing Marriage, you talk
Speaker 1: about how that idea, that concept is actually new, it's
Speaker 1: very very new. But at the same time there are
Speaker 1: there are other needs. So how can an OsO as
Speaker 1: we as were will use that term again, um, make
Speaker 1: your primary relationship better? Well, a relationships quality is determined
Speaker 1: to a large extent by how much the needs and
Speaker 1: expectations we bring to the relationship are met by this
Speaker 1: one other person. And it means that there's you know,
Speaker 1: a few different ways we can improve the relationship. UM.
Speaker 1: One way is to do what relationships you know therapists
Speaker 1: and scholars like me tend to tell people, which is
Speaker 1: how do you have more meaningful connections, how do you
Speaker 1: communicate better, how to have effective date nights. But another
Speaker 1: strategy that that isn't really about sort of investing more
Speaker 1: in the relationship, is figuring out the ways that this
Speaker 1: one person isn't going to be able to satisfy every
Speaker 1: single thing and stop relying on that one person to
Speaker 1: do those things. And so this is the idea of
Speaker 1: the other significant other or the OsO. There are many
Speaker 1: ways that we can look to our broader social networks
Speaker 1: for a range of different sorts of fulfillment. I don't
Speaker 1: just me and romantic or sexual sorts of connections. You know,
Speaker 1: we used to socialize in in same sex groups and
Speaker 1: nobody ever said things like I want to marry you
Speaker 1: because you're my best friend. It would have seemed ludicrous.
Speaker 1: But these days we spend more and more time with
Speaker 1: our one significant other. It comes at the expense of
Speaker 1: time that we spend separate from that person, but with
Speaker 1: other significant others, friends or or potentially romantic partners aside
Speaker 1: from the primary one um. And you know, to the
Speaker 1: degree that we can sort of spread the love around
Speaker 1: a little bit and make sure that we're we're focusing
Speaker 1: on our relationship in the ways that play to the
Speaker 1: strengths of that relationship and finding ways to look elsewhere
Speaker 1: when there might be a limitation or or a something
Speaker 1: less than perfect fulfillment within the relationship. So based off
Speaker 1: of that, and based off of also kind of what
Speaker 1: Julia and Steve had said, I started kind of connecting things.
Speaker 1: You know, Julia had mentioned the same way that somebody
Speaker 1: goes to the gym so much, it can make somebody
Speaker 1: feel like their time is being given somewhere else, or
Speaker 1: that they're dedicated to something else. How do you differentiate
Speaker 1: Or maybe there's not a differential like is is you know,
Speaker 1: if I like to play video games every night with
Speaker 1: my with my one homie that lives in on the
Speaker 1: other side of the earth, and I have to play
Speaker 1: it like it's it's how I get that out. Is
Speaker 1: that considered an os O? Is that just a hobby?
Speaker 1: That's because what I'm starting to realize is maybe before
Speaker 1: this podcast, I thought when you're in an open relationship,
Speaker 1: the only time that you're with other people is to
Speaker 1: like have because it's a sexual thing. And I always
Speaker 1: thought that, and I'm so wrong, like insanely wrong. And
Speaker 1: I'm so happy that I've come to this episodes that
Speaker 1: I can learn about the depths of open relationships. But
Speaker 1: now that now that we're kind of talking about and
Speaker 1: you say, sometimes it's people who just make you happy,
Speaker 1: or it's doing something and committing to something else outside
Speaker 1: of your relationship, how do you differentiate like an OsO
Speaker 1: then from something like I got. I go to the
Speaker 1: gym every day, and I have my workout partner that
Speaker 1: I go and I work out with all the time.
Speaker 1: I mean, I would define an OsO broadly, but there
Speaker 1: are certainly subcategories and and a workout buddy is very
Speaker 1: different from a sex buddy or a love buddy. UM.
Speaker 1: The broader context here, there are three different types of
Speaker 1: open relationships. UM. It sounds as if, if I've got
Speaker 1: it correctly, that that Steve and Julia have one that
Speaker 1: is asymmetric, so Steve is open and Julia is not.
Speaker 1: But also what we might just call open relationship. That's
Speaker 1: one type where the assumption is, look, you can, you're
Speaker 1: allowed to, um, you know, have some other people on
Speaker 1: the side, and the you know, people negotiate the contours
Speaker 1: of that. There's a second type, which informally you could
Speaker 1: call swinging, which is, um, we are with other people,
Speaker 1: but only when we're both there. So that might be
Speaker 1: something like orgies or perhaps uh, pretty sexual parties and
Speaker 1: things like that. UM. And the third type is is polyamory.
Speaker 1: And polyamory is a subcase of open relationships that that
Speaker 1: really is about long term, emotionally intimate connections with more
Speaker 1: than one partner. UM. By the way, it can easily
Speaker 1: be that all three are equally emotionally intimate. Right. So
Speaker 1: so the again, there's all these different variations. And I
Speaker 1: agree with you completely that there are many sorts of
Speaker 1: of reasons why people might want to open their relationship,
Speaker 1: not least of which is to benefit their relationship. Um.
Speaker 1: There are many deeply loving, intimate sorts of connections. I
Speaker 1: get the sense that Steve and Julia have a relationship
Speaker 1: like this, where where the the non monogamy that they've
Speaker 1: sort of written into the relationship actually serves to strengthen
Speaker 1: the relationship itself, among other goals. Um, and that is
Speaker 1: indeed one of them. May your reasons why people might
Speaker 1: want to do this. Some relationships can benefit from opening
Speaker 1: them up, especially if people are compatible in lots of ways.
Speaker 1: But one person, say, for example, has a strong a
Speaker 1: stronger sex drive or or different sorts of sexual kinks
Speaker 1: than somebody else does, which how often does that happen?
Speaker 1: A lot? So? So getting straight into that, how would
Speaker 1: a couple like, let's say you take a couple they
Speaker 1: are not open at all? Um, how does that couple
Speaker 1: know if an open relationship is one an option to
Speaker 1: an option that will help them or hurt them and
Speaker 1: overall just a good idea? Well overall. One of the
Speaker 1: great perils of being human is that you can't know.
Speaker 1: You cannot predict the future. And you know, I enjoyed
Speaker 1: listening to to Julie and Steve process um how they
Speaker 1: go about their consensual non monogamy, the Steve's openness in
Speaker 1: the relationship, and it's it's um. They didn't talk about
Speaker 1: it as something definitive. Julia raised the possibility that who knows,
Speaker 1: this is what I'm doing for now, but for later.
Speaker 1: You know, it's nice that I'll have opportunities available to me.
Speaker 1: There won't be strict rules about these sorts of things
Speaker 1: to me. A question that also comes to mind to
Speaker 1: add on top of that is, let's say that there's
Speaker 1: there is a problem like you had mentioned. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe one has more sex drive, one is always wanting
Speaker 1: to try new things or or any of the anything
Speaker 1: in a relationship. In my mind, I'm thinking if I
Speaker 1: was in that situation, I would think, how do I
Speaker 1: reignite the spark with this one person? But I think
Speaker 1: there's also this second mindset that goes, maybe it's time
Speaker 1: for me to find that that specific spark elsewhere, so
Speaker 1: that this relationship doesn't have to carry the burden of
Speaker 1: of those problems, you know what I mean? So, how
Speaker 1: do you know how to differentiate, how to discern which
Speaker 1: way to go? Well, you have two different situations. One
Speaker 1: is where you start entirely monogamous and then have to
Speaker 1: broach the conversation. That's a very delicate conversation to broach
Speaker 1: because we have these very strict rules about the way
Speaker 1: people are supposed to behave um, you know, in twenty
Speaker 1: one century America, right, these rules differ across time, and
Speaker 1: so it can be very, very hurtful to bring up
Speaker 1: the topic. In a case like Steven Julia, they knew
Speaker 1: from the start um what the contours of the relationship were,
Speaker 1: and either option has risk. I mean I would I
Speaker 1: would ask all of the people who think consensual not monogamy, like,
Speaker 1: that's terrifying. Why would you do that? There's so much risk. Well,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. It's not like commitment to permanent
Speaker 1: monogamy is risk free. It's not like Americans today have
Speaker 1: just totally nailed it right, like we know exactly how
Speaker 1: to do the perfect marriage, and as you can see,
Speaker 1: nobody's divorcing and everyone's happy. These things are very very complicated.
Speaker 1: So I don't think you can say we're going to
Speaker 1: open it and it's going to be fine, because our
Speaker 1: ability to know how that's going to play out is
Speaker 1: less than certain. Maybe we think we're opening up a
Speaker 1: little bit, but then somebody falls more in love than
Speaker 1: he intended to. Um. Maybe somebody thinks she'll be fine
Speaker 1: with having it be open, but then the pain comes
Speaker 1: and you know, she didn't anticipate it, and so be it.
Speaker 1: So there is definitely risk in doing it. I just
Speaker 1: don't think that the question really is is there risk
Speaker 1: in consensual nonmonogamy, because the answers yes, we should skip it.
Speaker 1: I think we need to be aware what the risks
Speaker 1: are of monogamy, which includes things like boredom, frustration, sexlessness.
Speaker 1: There's all sorts of risks that come from sixty years
Speaker 1: of committed exclusivity. And how do those risks play out
Speaker 1: for us relative to the risks of consensual nonmonogamy and
Speaker 1: for many relationships, many people, the best plan is going
Speaker 1: to be monogamy, but certainly not for everybody. You and
Speaker 1: and you had mentioned this exact thing of of how
Speaker 1: it's not like we've really nailed monogamy down. You know,
Speaker 1: divorce rates are at an all time high, and and
Speaker 1: it's not really not necessarily you know, proven that that's
Speaker 1: the that's the way to go. Um, in your in
Speaker 1: your studies, have you found any specific statistic that shows
Speaker 1: maybe open relationships have a higher success rate than monogamous relationships.
Speaker 1: So the the ideal study here is basically impossible. So
Speaker 1: so to draw causal conclusions, what we really want to
Speaker 1: do is take a stay ample of a few thousand
Speaker 1: people and randomly assigned some of them to have a
Speaker 1: monogamous relationship and some of them to have a consensually
Speaker 1: non monogamous relationship. For for practical reasons and um ethical reasons,
Speaker 1: you can't really run that study. So the best studies
Speaker 1: really that are available at this time is to take
Speaker 1: samples of people who have opted in right, So, among
Speaker 1: people who have opted into a consentually non monogamous relationship
Speaker 1: versus a monogamous relationship, who's who's happier if either right?
Speaker 1: Is there a difference? And that work has now been done.
Speaker 1: So if you take a sample of people who are
Speaker 1: consentually non monogamous, and the study I'm thinking of is
Speaker 1: they did a really good job. So these are all
Speaker 1: heterosexual couples, that is, a male identifying person with a
Speaker 1: primary partner who is female identifying or vice versa, and
Speaker 1: open right, so they have a primary partner of the
Speaker 1: other sex and non monogamous, and they compare that to
Speaker 1: a sample of people who also have UM male identifying
Speaker 1: with female identifying or vice versa. But they've adopted a
Speaker 1: monogamous norm. So, so far as we can tell, the
Speaker 1: major differ prints is the norm they have in their relationship. UM,
Speaker 1: So what are the differences when it comes to things
Speaker 1: like satisfaction and commitment? No differences. There are no differences
Speaker 1: in terms of overall level of satisfaction or average level
Speaker 1: of satisfaction. There are minor differences in terms of things
Speaker 1: like trust, um, And which way do you think that
Speaker 1: effect might go? Because I think if anything goes the
Speaker 1: other way, So the consensually non monogamous relationships are a
Speaker 1: little bit more trusting than the UH than the monogamous relationships.
Speaker 1: And I think it's partly the things that that we
Speaker 1: saw from from Steven Julia, where this doing this stuff well,
Speaker 1: having a primary partner and also seeing other people is
Speaker 1: is emotionally fraught and it requires additional levels of processing
Speaker 1: and conversation, and so I think that there is some
Speaker 1: benefit that comes from those sorts of conversations. Once again,
Speaker 1: let me underscore This is not a risk free option.
Speaker 1: People can get very very hurt in ways they don't anticipate,
Speaker 1: that can fall in love and is they don't anticipate.
Speaker 1: But there are all sorts of upsides as well of
Speaker 1: this type of relationship. For again, for the people who
Speaker 1: feel comfortable trying it. You know, I'm surprised, but I'm
Speaker 1: also not necessarily surprised about that trust finding because you know,
Speaker 1: Juliet mentioned at first and I don't mean to speak
Speaker 1: about you, what like you're not here, Julia, but she
Speaker 1: mentioned at first, you know, that she didn't want to know,
Speaker 1: and then the kind of the anxiety of not knowing,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking to myself, Yeah, if I didn't know, then
Speaker 1: any time my significant other would leave, if my girlfriend
Speaker 1: would leave for the grocery store, I'm like, just gonna
Speaker 1: go talk to that fucking guy at the grocery store.
Speaker 1: But now that you know, I think having the knowledge
Speaker 1: and having the open conversation pun intended having the open
Speaker 1: conversation about hey, this is this is how I feel,
Speaker 1: and everything always builds more trust. So if you're if
Speaker 1: you're kind of covering the infidelity with hey, my heart
Speaker 1: is open and this is where I go. It actually
Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense that that you would have
Speaker 1: more trust a relationship like that. Yeah, one quick thing
Speaker 1: on on terminology. So the reason why people who are
Speaker 1: are you know, receptive to this lifestyle arrangement, this type
Speaker 1: of relationship use the clunky language of non monogamy and
Speaker 1: consensual nonmonogamy is because language like infidelity, UM and and adultery,
Speaker 1: this is usually language of people being dishonest. So so
Speaker 1: infidelity I don't I don't think there's any infidelity UM
Speaker 1: in Stephen and Julia's relationship. But in a non monogamous relationship,
Speaker 1: it's not infidelity, it's openness, it is honesty. That's that's
Speaker 1: so again. I could talk about about people in general
Speaker 1: because I mostly focus on data, but because UM, Steve
Speaker 1: and Julia were so generous with their story, we can
Speaker 1: use them as an example. I hope, I hope that's
Speaker 1: fine with everybody. Um, they have this this emotional processing
Speaker 1: and what does that do? Like they come out, you know,
Speaker 1: he comes out of the room. He's just at the
Speaker 1: conversation and the two of them sit on the couch,
Speaker 1: maybe pour a glass of wine and have a conversation
Speaker 1: about what it means and it's an opportunity for her
Speaker 1: to say, for example, I'm not putting words in your mouth, Julia,
Speaker 1: just sort of speaking hypothetically like that was a little
Speaker 1: hard on me. And he can say, I know, and
Speaker 1: I'm sensitive to that, and it's very important to me
Speaker 1: that you feel loved. And they can take this opportunity
Speaker 1: to share what they feel in their sensitivity about those things,
Speaker 1: and the norms in favor of doing that are very high.
Speaker 1: In the poly community in particular, there are very very
Speaker 1: strong norms in favor of lots of communication. It's one
Speaker 1: of these things where I actually feel like the monogamous
Speaker 1: world has a whole lot to learn from the consensually
Speaker 1: non monogamous world in terms of how to communicate, just
Speaker 1: like I think that UM, the the sort of vanilla
Speaker 1: world has a whole lot to work to learn from
Speaker 1: the kink or b D s M community about the
Speaker 1: nature of consent. I think people UM who are monogamous
Speaker 1: have a lot to learn about how to communicate effectively
Speaker 1: about emotions and hurt feelings UM from people who are
Speaker 1: practicing uh non monogamousts. I totally agree. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: just a sponge today, Like it's really it's really the
Speaker 1: level of I mean because I think in my mind,
Speaker 1: in my relations Jim, if you can talk or in
Speaker 1: any relationship, if you can talk about your heart in
Speaker 1: its fullness, then you can talk about anything like You're
Speaker 1: not gonna get offended by tiny little things, if you
Speaker 1: can have big, broader conversations of of open honesty. UM,
Speaker 1: your advice for a couple sometimes centers around adjusting your
Speaker 1: expectations from your relationship or from what your marriage could
Speaker 1: do for you. How does that apply here with open
Speaker 1: relationships and how is it a little bit different. Well.
Speaker 1: One of the things that that's especially enlightening about studying
Speaker 1: this stuff is all of us are born into a
Speaker 1: certain cultural and historical moment, and we think that we
Speaker 1: know exactly what marriages and we act as if marriage
Speaker 1: has sort of always been like this or or else.
Speaker 1: We look at at you know, leave it to Beaver
Speaker 1: and say that marriage was always like that before, But
Speaker 1: it wasn't. The nine fifties was a bizarro world that
Speaker 1: existed for like fifteen years, and it just happened to
Speaker 1: be the time that TV came in. Marriage was never
Speaker 1: like that before, and it was never really like that after. Um,
Speaker 1: so today we have a whole range of different expectations.
Speaker 1: And like I said, it didn't used to be the
Speaker 1: case that people talked a lot about marrying their best friend,
Speaker 1: or about you know, living an authentic life, and and
Speaker 1: about you know, being in a marriage that helps us
Speaker 1: grow as individuals. That's very much of the now. And
Speaker 1: and in my book, I I track the history of
Speaker 1: these ideas and and this is where in the third
Speaker 1: major era of marriage in America, I call it the
Speaker 1: self expressive era, where these sorts of emotional and psychological
Speaker 1: needs are foundational to our expectations of marriage. That is,
Speaker 1: we think that a marriage that doesn't deliver these things
Speaker 1: is inadequate. Now, in the fifties that wasn't really the case,
Speaker 1: and certainly in eighteen hundred that wasn't the case when
Speaker 1: really it was about food production and shelter um. But
Speaker 1: these days we have these sorts of expectations. The thing
Speaker 1: that was most fun about writing the book is that
Speaker 1: I had started thinking that these changes are bad, that
Speaker 1: basically we are ruining marriage. We're putting so many expectations
Speaker 1: on this one relationship that there's no way it can
Speaker 1: withstand all the weight that we're throwing on it, I
Speaker 1: came to think something different. In the end, I came
Speaker 1: to think that when you're throwing all these expectations, it
Speaker 1: is true that a marriage that would have been totally
Speaker 1: adequate for our grandparents may disappoint us today. But it's
Speaker 1: also true that a level of marital connection is possible
Speaker 1: today that was out of reach in an era where
Speaker 1: we weren't even trying. And so so the calibration of
Speaker 1: what is it that we're going to look to our
Speaker 1: marriage to do in terms of our deep emotional fulfillment,
Speaker 1: in terms of our sexual fulfillment, in terms of helping us,
Speaker 1: inspiring us in our career, if we can play to
Speaker 1: the strengths of the marriage on those things, and also
Speaker 1: figuring out, you know where am I not ready to
Speaker 1: look to just this one person? So so Steve has
Speaker 1: a philosophical objection and many people do to monogamy. He's
Speaker 1: not willing to look to one person for just that.
Speaker 1: Do they have the sort of relationship that they can say, look,
Speaker 1: that is a reasonable place for you to look elsewhere
Speaker 1: to fulfill some of your needs. And we don't have
Speaker 1: strict rules about which needs you you need to meet
Speaker 1: here versus in this other sort of context. I'm perplexed
Speaker 1: right now. I am, like, I'm just this is so cool.
Speaker 1: I'm really grateful for all three of you guys for
Speaker 1: being on the show. I have one more question before
Speaker 1: we take a break. You've studied now romance in general,
Speaker 1: but even these topics for decades. Now, what's something that
Speaker 1: you wish people knew People like me who are literally
Speaker 1: probably listening to this podcast, like, whoa, I never even
Speaker 1: thought about it like that. What's something that you wish
Speaker 1: people knew about the benefits, like the real benefits of
Speaker 1: having an OsO, either romantic or or otherwise, well, that
Speaker 1: it can benefit the primary relationship. And again, I'm not
Speaker 1: a zealot for this stuff. I'm not a fanatic saying
Speaker 1: everybody should be doing this, Like Steve, I think there
Speaker 1: are very very serious, you know, risks involved with this.
Speaker 1: It's not for everybody. But but I think the assumption
Speaker 1: that if there's some amount of non monogamy, some amount
Speaker 1: of non exclusivity, that suggests some sort of failing in
Speaker 1: the primary relationship, and if if the relationship were good enough,
Speaker 1: then there would be no need to look elsewhere. I
Speaker 1: think it is the wrong logic um. Certainly that's true
Speaker 1: in some situations, but it may well be the case
Speaker 1: that you know, we're unbelievably compatible in all sorts of ways,
Speaker 1: and this is a way that's that you know, monogamy
Speaker 1: isn't a huge priority to either one of us, and
Speaker 1: we both think it's fun to be with other people,
Speaker 1: or we find like we have a deep intellectual connection
Speaker 1: with somebody else that doesn't in any way step on
Speaker 1: the connection that we feel with our primary partner, that
Speaker 1: that having an additional partner can actually benefit the relationship.
Speaker 1: And I didn't talk about the relevant studies here, but
Speaker 1: for example, there's one study that looks at how intimate
Speaker 1: we feel with our partner as a function of whether
Speaker 1: we're in a monogamous or a non monogamous relationship. Here again,
Speaker 1: this is a separate study from before. No difference. Right,
Speaker 1: You might think that intimacy is this limited commodity, and
Speaker 1: for each minute that Steve talks to some other woman,
Speaker 1: that that's a minute of intimacy that he doesn't get
Speaker 1: with Julia. There's no evidence that that's the case. Wow,
Speaker 1: we're just factual, We're just we're just Wow, this is
Speaker 1: this is so sick. We're taking a break, but it's
Speaker 1: a quick break because we gotta talk. We gotta keep
Speaker 1: talking about this. Don't go anywhere. We are back. I
Speaker 1: told you it's going to be a quick break. We
Speaker 1: are here talking about love hacks. Uh. This is I'm
Speaker 1: so excited about this, this whole episode, Like, I can't
Speaker 1: wait for people to hear this. Steven and Julia from
Speaker 1: your guys experience, what's something that you wish totally monogamous
Speaker 1: couples like me, what's one thing you wish they knew
Speaker 1: about being an open relationship? I think just that it's
Speaker 1: kind of what I've been saying the whole time, where
Speaker 1: it's like it's not that different from any other kind
Speaker 1: of problem, and it's not necessarily the solution to your problem.
Speaker 1: Like Eli was saying, I don't think that it's for
Speaker 1: everyone or the solution to every problem. But it can
Speaker 1: be a gateway to connection, and it can be it's
Speaker 1: an option. It's a possible solution to something, again, not
Speaker 1: always the solution. But also because just because that's not
Speaker 1: there doesn't mean you don't also have relationship problems. You
Speaker 1: have relationship problems no matter what. So it's all about like,
Speaker 1: what are those problems? And if you're a monogamous that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean, like I said too, that you are having
Speaker 1: any more intimacy or that you are not. So as
Speaker 1: long as you are getting what you want from your relationship,
Speaker 1: who cares how it's how it's working. Um for me,
Speaker 1: I would have to say, um, you know it's it's funny.
Speaker 1: My social media is so funny because my Instagram is
Speaker 1: all Julia like so much Julie too much Julia, and
Speaker 1: my Twitter in yeah, and my Twitter is I joke
Speaker 1: around a lot about being non monogamous and babes and
Speaker 1: checking out babes and doing stuff that nothing crass or anything.
Speaker 1: You know I have, Uh, I have a lot of
Speaker 1: like a women friends and a big women audience and
Speaker 1: stuff too. So you could feel they would get mad
Speaker 1: at first if I would tweet about it, because they
Speaker 1: love Julius so much. They fall in love with her
Speaker 1: on my Instagram and so they're kind of protective of her.
Speaker 1: But you could see over time they understand it. It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: but obviously they're staying together and Steve loves her. It's
Speaker 1: almost like, listen, if you will allow me to be free,
Speaker 1: like truly free then um, like you will own my
Speaker 1: heart in like so many ways. So I think by by,
Speaker 1: I think time has played out and showed to our
Speaker 1: comedy community and everything that you know, if you can
Speaker 1: allow the other person to be themselves, that's such a
Speaker 1: loyalty and like a true fidelity of my heart exists.
Speaker 1: It's almost by you know, that's stupid old saying that
Speaker 1: if you like open your hand and let the bird
Speaker 1: fly away, then it's and it comes back it's yours
Speaker 1: that we that's truly like how it's played out. I
Speaker 1: feel what do you give? No, I was just gonna
Speaker 1: say no, I agree, and I feel like I haven't.
Speaker 1: I feel like I haven't said I love you enough
Speaker 1: on this Uh like that I feel like it's implied
Speaker 1: we're married and I love you, but it is. I
Speaker 1: think that's the thing that you ask yourself most importantly,
Speaker 1: that it's like if you everything that you are doing
Speaker 1: should be coming from love, and that might mean like
Speaker 1: loving someone, also can mean breaking up with someone or
Speaker 1: having it not work or whatever. But I think that
Speaker 1: anything in that thing, as much as it is a clichee,
Speaker 1: it is very true that if you are like too
Speaker 1: afraid to try the thing for fear of losing the relationship.
Speaker 1: It's not yours you're holding. You were having to hold
Speaker 1: it under a condition that is not real. That's what
Speaker 1: I at least tell myself is that I'm like, if
Speaker 1: I really love this person, then I need to love
Speaker 1: them exactly as they are. That doesn't mean I'm not
Speaker 1: entitled to my feelings about it, or that I can't
Speaker 1: still be hurt or asked them to, you know, change behaviors, whatever.
Speaker 1: But but if you really love someone, it cannot be
Speaker 1: conditional on them doing only behaving in one certain way.
Speaker 1: So I think that remember reminding yourself that you that
Speaker 1: you love this person like is is the thing too?
Speaker 1: Write Eli you had something that I have a question
Speaker 1: for you. So it wouldn't surprise me if if some
Speaker 1: of the listeners are thinking, really it's not okay to
Speaker 1: ask possibly even demand any type of sacrifice? Um, any
Speaker 1: thoughts on that, like in principle are there? Is it
Speaker 1: okay to make those demands? I think you absolutely can
Speaker 1: make those demands. I think you can. You can always
Speaker 1: ask for anything, um, And it doesn't mean that you
Speaker 1: get them. And I think, more importantly, if you aren't
Speaker 1: sure why you are asking them to make that demand
Speaker 1: if you don't pass through. And mind you, my mom
Speaker 1: is a psychiatrist. I've been in therapy. I'm like a
Speaker 1: real therapy person. I've I've read all the not not
Speaker 1: all the books, but every book ever, every book, every
Speaker 1: one was just published. Yeah, this is this is something
Speaker 1: that I have. I have thought through a lot and
Speaker 1: all those things. So I understand that, like that is,
Speaker 1: we aren't taught to like think like this necessarily. But
Speaker 1: I think again, this idea of like, if you aren't
Speaker 1: sure why you're demanding that of someone, it's going to
Speaker 1: pop up in another way in your relationship, likely that
Speaker 1: doesn't have anything to do with monogamy or not. So
Speaker 1: if it's a boundary for you and you know that
Speaker 1: about yourself, then yeah, again you can ask, you can
Speaker 1: ask whatever you want, but you have to be prepared
Speaker 1: to deal with the consequences if their answer is no.
Speaker 1: And if it's really a boundary, if it was more
Speaker 1: of a way to like manipulate someone's behavior instead of
Speaker 1: a I know myself, I know that I'm not going
Speaker 1: to be comfortable with this, Like then it's coming from
Speaker 1: a boundary love place as opposed to a like, you're
Speaker 1: my husband, I'm allowed to tell you you need to
Speaker 1: do this thing the right I want to. I want to.
Speaker 1: It's because she read everybody. It's because she read every
Speaker 1: book ever. So you both you both brought something up
Speaker 1: and and it made me want to kind of make
Speaker 1: a statement. But I'm still gonna come in it as
Speaker 1: a question because I am such a newbie into this conversation.
Speaker 1: It seems like either way, a non monogamous relationship is
Speaker 1: definitely for a strong couple. You know, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of couples who choose not monogamy as like a last
Speaker 1: resort to a relationship that's not strong. Um, but what
Speaker 1: are some markers that you and your relationship could survive
Speaker 1: or even thrive if it were to open up? Lak,
Speaker 1: She's read all the books. I've every book. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: I mean the other thing is is you're You're you're
Speaker 1: unique in the sense of like you hit that crossroads
Speaker 1: where you were like this is a path that we're
Speaker 1: about to take. What what what gave you those inklings
Speaker 1: that like this is the right move to do something
Speaker 1: that you've never really done before. Well, I do want
Speaker 1: Julia to answer, but we are very much obsessed with
Speaker 1: a thing has to last forever or as for as
Speaker 1: long as possible. To me, if if you're using this
Speaker 1: stuff and you end up breaking up, it's because you
Speaker 1: needed to break up, and that's okay. And if at
Speaker 1: some point Julie and I need to break up, I mean,
Speaker 1: that was a real This is my second marriage, and I, like,
Speaker 1: I thought I was never gonna get married again. But
Speaker 1: we've talked about it so much. I knew would make
Speaker 1: her so happy, and I was, I'm surprised at how
Speaker 1: happy it's made me. But I just thought about it
Speaker 1: and I was like, I just realistically, I can't see
Speaker 1: a way. I'm older now and she's older, we're not kids.
Speaker 1: I can't see it ending. If it does end, if
Speaker 1: we our value systems change or we want different things,
Speaker 1: that happens with life. But to me, it's never about
Speaker 1: how can we make this last forever. It's how can
Speaker 1: we both be the healthiest, most full versions of ourselves
Speaker 1: And and that might be hopefully that means we stay
Speaker 1: together forever, but it might not mean that. So I
Speaker 1: think it's important to to realize that people breaking up
Speaker 1: is absolutely not the end of the world. Some of
Speaker 1: the worst relationships. I know people have stayed together forever. Julia, No,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I think first and foremost, if
Speaker 1: you are thinking about it, then it's maybe worth exploring.
Speaker 1: Doesn't mean necessarily actually literally opening up, but I'm a
Speaker 1: big fan of like, if something philosophically works, you should
Speaker 1: kind of be able to apply it to other things
Speaker 1: besides that thing. So if you are feeling stagnant in
Speaker 1: some kind of way, maybe it's not literally opening up
Speaker 1: your relationship, but maybe it is uh, hanging out with
Speaker 1: your friends or just even asking yourself, am I identifying
Speaker 1: with this partnership? Like what would it mean to me
Speaker 1: if this partnership didn't work? And what fears do that
Speaker 1: bring up for for me? About my self worth? About uh,
Speaker 1: what pressures am I maybe putting on this person that
Speaker 1: I'm not aware of that I am saying, Like is
Speaker 1: there do I want to go back to school? Do
Speaker 1: I wanna like start up a new hobby? Is there
Speaker 1: other things? I think it's again this the same thing.
Speaker 1: Is this idea of like, oh, our relationship is the problem.
Speaker 1: I think sometimes it's your problem and it's not. It's
Speaker 1: not like because the relationship isn't working, it's because you
Speaker 1: aren't working in some way, and not to say that
Speaker 1: it's like your fault, but uh, I think it's like
Speaker 1: being not being afraid to ask the questions, but exploring, like, well,
Speaker 1: what what are my resistances to that in not opening up?
Speaker 1: Or like where am I if I don't do it
Speaker 1: in this way? Where else could I uh be more
Speaker 1: open in my life? Yeah? Totally, Eli. You you you
Speaker 1: put your hand up so I know you can speak
Speaker 1: to this. How I would love for people to think
Speaker 1: about monogamy is a Titanic ask. The idea that you
Speaker 1: will not have emotional or romantic or sexual um connections
Speaker 1: with anybody but me for the next fifties sixty years
Speaker 1: is gigantic, and that's fine. I think many people should
Speaker 1: indeed make that ask. It's the best option for many
Speaker 1: many people. But treating it as some default, as some
Speaker 1: obvious thing that we're gonna do and then we're gonna
Speaker 1: start getting to what we're really asking of each other,
Speaker 1: that's a risk. That's a risk of we're going to
Speaker 1: ask more than is appropriate given what we're willing to invest.
Speaker 1: And and so what I would urge people to do
Speaker 1: is to be deliberate about this decision. Do we want
Speaker 1: to commit to a lifetime of monogamy together? If so,
Speaker 1: what does that mean? What does that mean in terms
Speaker 1: of my fitness regiment? What does that mean in terms
Speaker 1: of of how I'm going to, you know, manage my
Speaker 1: work related travel and make sure that I don't put
Speaker 1: myself in risky situations, make sure that I don't become
Speaker 1: a comedian. Right, there are all sorts of things that
Speaker 1: we're gonna need to calibrate in order to make that happen.
Speaker 1: And and the problem is, because everybody've used this as
Speaker 1: that's obvious default, people aren't engaging with the size the
Speaker 1: magnitude of the ask. So God bless you want to
Speaker 1: be monogamous forever, that's terrific. What are the things you're
Speaker 1: not going to ask of your marriage? What are the
Speaker 1: things that you're gonna do in order to make sure
Speaker 1: that monogamy can actually be plausible for the two of
Speaker 1: you over the next however many years that you hope
Speaker 1: the relationship lasts. I was gonna say, let me backtrack.
Speaker 1: I think demanding that your partner not become a comedian
Speaker 1: is the only thing that you're allowed to demand in
Speaker 1: or the only demand that is across the board. I know,
Speaker 1: I know, I totally I love that because it is
Speaker 1: the thing I think, no matter what the default that
Speaker 1: there is no kind of relationship that doesn't require immense
Speaker 1: communication and deliberation and self discovery and sacrifice in all
Speaker 1: of those ways. Is monogamy or not. All relationships require
Speaker 1: work and and thought and effort and all of those things.
Speaker 1: It seems to me, as I've as I'm learning this
Speaker 1: real time firsthand, you know, learning on this podcast, the
Speaker 1: biggest thing is like, and it's so corny, but it's like,
Speaker 1: you gotta follow your heart, you know, Julia, you said,
Speaker 1: sometimes do it. Sometimes following your heart and really loving
Speaker 1: somebody is leaving them and breaking up with them, like
Speaker 1: you had mentioned as well, Steve, Like, it's not following
Speaker 1: your heart, is not staying in a thirty year marriage
Speaker 1: where you're miserable and you secretly wish that you were
Speaker 1: you know that you were somewhere else with someone else.
Speaker 1: Um And and the same thing is following your heart
Speaker 1: is knowing Hey, this you know, even though monogamy is whatever,
Speaker 1: this is the main popular thing, it's not it's not
Speaker 1: where my heart goes. I gotta go this way and
Speaker 1: with a partner, It's like, Yo, this is something that's
Speaker 1: really important to me. It's following my heart. And every
Speaker 1: great relationship I think incourage is the other person to
Speaker 1: follow their heart and chase after what their you know,
Speaker 1: what their desires are. And so that's something that I
Speaker 1: really took away, especially from this whole episode. But I
Speaker 1: do want to close out that this segment is called
Speaker 1: love hacks, and and the reason why it's called that
Speaker 1: is Eli in your book, Uh, you talk about love hacks.
Speaker 1: Can you explain that, um and and tell us maybe
Speaker 1: one of your favorite love hacks? Sure? Well, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean the book um Is is really about how we
Speaker 1: calibrate our expectations to what we as a couple can
Speaker 1: actually achieve. UM sort of helps people think well about that.
Speaker 1: So in some sense, the book is a supply and
Speaker 1: demand story. It says, you can demand whatever you want
Speaker 1: to ask of the relationship, but then the supply matters.
Speaker 1: Are we compatible enough, are we investing enough time in
Speaker 1: the relationship? Are we keeping ourselves fit enough to be
Speaker 1: attractive to our partner for fifty years? These are the
Speaker 1: sorts of supply and demand calibrations. But there's a little
Speaker 1: bit of a short cut that that's not going to
Speaker 1: make a bad relationship a good one, but it can
Speaker 1: help around the edges, which is the the idea of
Speaker 1: love hacks. Are there quick and dirty things we can
Speaker 1: do to make the relationship a little bit stronger that
Speaker 1: don't require big date nights and big conversations, that that
Speaker 1: require relatively little investment, relatively little supply, but that can
Speaker 1: increase the quality of the relationship. UM. It's based a
Speaker 1: little bit on the on the observation by the novelist
Speaker 1: Marcel Proust who says that mystery is not about traveling
Speaker 1: to new places, but about looking with new eyes. And
Speaker 1: in the book, I talked about eight different you know,
Speaker 1: science backed love hacks. UM. One of the ones that
Speaker 1: you know we created in our lab here at Northwestern
Speaker 1: is we we recruited a hundred and twenty married couples.
Speaker 1: We randomly assigned half of them to a condition where
Speaker 1: they thought about conflict in their marriage from the perspective
Speaker 1: of a neutral third party who wants the best for everybody.
Speaker 1: One of them was in a control condition where they
Speaker 1: didn't do that task. And we found that even though UM,
Speaker 1: the writing task took only twenty one minutes. We found
Speaker 1: that people who had immersed themselves in this third party perspective,
Speaker 1: how can we think about conflict from this perspective of
Speaker 1: a neutral third party who wants the best for everyone?
Speaker 1: That just re orienting your thinking in that way made
Speaker 1: your relationship better over a subsequent year. Wow, and you
Speaker 1: and and and I also want to touch on this
Speaker 1: is you have mentioned this during the break, is that
Speaker 1: people act as if the study of romance, or or
Speaker 1: open relationships or or consensual monogamy is just kind of
Speaker 1: like table talk. But in reality, there's so much research
Speaker 1: behind this. And you're obviously a firsthand example of of
Speaker 1: how much research has done in books that have been written,
Speaker 1: including your own, including uh and I want you to
Speaker 1: shout it out. I can't exactly remember what. It's something
Speaker 1: slut um but that is actually not scientific um. But
Speaker 1: but it is. It is a book about relationships. There
Speaker 1: are there are many books books about relationships. Not all
Speaker 1: of them are based in the data. In fact, very
Speaker 1: few are. And it's one of the major reasons why
Speaker 1: I wanted to write the book is is there are
Speaker 1: thousands of people who have devoted their entire careers to
Speaker 1: collecting data about what makes relationships better or worse just
Speaker 1: on average. Right, you can't really say and therefore you
Speaker 1: you specific couple this is how you should to it.
Speaker 1: But it provides useful clues to know that these sorts
Speaker 1: of behaviors tend on average to be beneficial, these sorts
Speaker 1: of behaviors tend on average to be particularly harmful. And
Speaker 1: there are I don't know tens of thousands, hundreds of
Speaker 1: thousands of journal articles cloistered in academic libraries, and so
Speaker 1: one of the things I wanted to do was to
Speaker 1: distill what I thought were some of the main learnings
Speaker 1: from that scholarly literature and and bring it and bring
Speaker 1: them to the public. Well, you definitely did, um and
Speaker 1: and and I'm so grateful that, uh that that you
Speaker 1: were here on the podcast, as well as Julia and Steve.
Speaker 1: You know, growing up not knowing anybody who was even
Speaker 1: in an consensual, non monogamous relationship until just a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago, seeing not only a consensual non monogamous relationship,
Speaker 1: but also seeing how much love it's just as strong
Speaker 1: as my parents who have been monogamous for thirty years
Speaker 1: with each other, and understanding that the overall goal in
Speaker 1: a relationship across the board is to just be open
Speaker 1: and honest and loving with each other. I know that
Speaker 1: for a moment it kind of became like the live
Speaker 1: version of breaking down your relationship. And so I'm so
Speaker 1: grateful that you guys came on, and also the fact
Speaker 1: that you guys are like the gold standard for love
Speaker 1: in itself and so um it means a lot to me.
Speaker 1: And I think it's time for my favorite segment of
Speaker 1: the show so that people can see all of these
Speaker 1: pictures of Julia, like you're talking about Steve. It's called
Speaker 1: not So Shameless promo. Uh, just tell us about what
Speaker 1: you're working on, what you're excited about, and where we
Speaker 1: can find you on social media. Go for it. Oh,
Speaker 1: I've got a bunch of podcasts. I have a religion
Speaker 1: podcast I used to be a minister called Who's Your
Speaker 1: God with Amy Miller, a movie podcast called Us from
Speaker 1: the Vista, and a horny guys news podcast called The
Speaker 1: Male Gauge. You can find me at Big hern on
Speaker 1: Twitter and Hernia on Instagram. Hernia did you get Is
Speaker 1: that actually just spelled like hernia? I can't believe I
Speaker 1: got it. I cannot believe that you've got that. That's amazing.
Speaker 1: People should follow you just for the just for the handle,
Speaker 1: just for the handle. People always say oh Hernia, like like, well,
Speaker 1: just refer to them him as if that is his name.
Speaker 1: So it's a good one. That's a good sign. I
Speaker 1: love it. Julia hit Us listening not so shameless promo. Sure,
Speaker 1: I am at Julia Logan on all platforms, as you
Speaker 1: mentioned in my intro. I also I'm a co host
Speaker 1: of an astrology comedy podcast called What's Your Sign? Uh.
Speaker 1: If you're into astrology or not into astrology, I personally
Speaker 1: love having haters listen. Uh. I love talking to astro haters.
Speaker 1: It's one of my favorite things. I am truly fueled
Speaker 1: by the astro haters. So you could you could totally
Speaker 1: hate it and absolutely listen. But that's at What's Your
Speaker 1: Sign Podcast on all of the platforms. Um. I I'm
Speaker 1: gonna start offering astrology readings, so if you're interested in that,
Speaker 1: slide in my d m Eli finkel Um the author
Speaker 1: of The All or Nothing Marriage, a professor at Northwestern University.
Speaker 1: The book tries to take what we know, take a
Speaker 1: data based approach. What we know about relationships um to
Speaker 1: help people figure out how they themselves can build wronger
Speaker 1: relationships as possible. I'm on social media handle is Eli
Speaker 1: J Finkel f I n K E L and primarily
Speaker 1: on Twitter, but Paul Show on Facebook, Instagram, etcetera. I
Speaker 1: love that you know you can always find me at
Speaker 1: alex Iono everywhere. It's the best part about having a
Speaker 1: weird last name ai O n oh. But more importantly,
Speaker 1: please make sure you rate our podcast and subscribe. You
Speaker 1: can leave a review. That is how we grow. But
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful that you can and listen today and
Speaker 1: I'll talk to you guys next time. We really want
Speaker 1: you to get the help you need, so if you
Speaker 1: need help, please seek independent advice from a competent healthcare
Speaker 1: or mental health professional. The views and opinions expressed in
Speaker 1: this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or
Speaker 1: individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the
Speaker 1: opinions of I Heart Media or its employees. This podcast
Speaker 1: should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, counseling,
Speaker 1: or therapy. Listening to the podcast does not established dr
Speaker 1: patient relationship with hosts or guests of alex iono, let's
Speaker 1: get into it, or I heart Media. No guarantee is
Speaker 1: given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made
Speaker 1: on this podcast. Wol if that's a doozy