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Speaker 1: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm

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Speaker 1: jessicasiveto executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for the

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Speaker 1: Devil The Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series explored

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Speaker 1: the story of Robert Shin, the La based Chakaina Church

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Speaker 1: and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chakaina Church over two

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Speaker 1: decades ago before establishing seven M Films and is named

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Speaker 1: in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Kalia Gray, former member of Chakina Church and

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Speaker 2: Seven M Films. In this episode, we're going to be

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Speaker 2: exploring the role of trust and ethical boundaries in creative education.

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Speaker 3: It was really similar to last week's episode.

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Speaker 2: We're going to be looking in the form of acting

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Speaker 2: coaches once again. In this instance, the boundary between education

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Speaker 2: and a more high controlled environment comes into question. So

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Speaker 2: we talk about like the creative industry as a whole.

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Speaker 2: We see a lot of similar stories popping up where

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Speaker 2: it's a very vultar group.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of people that want to break into

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Speaker 3: the industry and it's a little bit difficult to.

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Speaker 2: Get in, so that breeds a lot of ways people

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Speaker 2: can I guess dangle a carrot in front of creatives

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Speaker 2: and people still on the come up, and I feel

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Speaker 2: like that's what really happened to my friends and I

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Speaker 2: in Chicaina.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's important that we go down this

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Speaker 3: rabbit hole.

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Speaker 2: So today's story was brought to us by our producer,

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Speaker 2: Sophie Hi.

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Speaker 4: Sophie Hi guys on the pod today.

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Speaker 1: On the pod here she is, So, how did you

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Speaker 1: come across the story?

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Speaker 3: Tell us a little bit more about it.

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Speaker 4: It sort of came from a party on my roof

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Speaker 4: of my building and I was talking a bit about

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Speaker 4: our podcast, and then my neighbor was like, I think

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Speaker 4: some of our neighbors are in a high controlled group,

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Speaker 4: and he was talking about how you've been invited to

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Speaker 4: go to see this show at this theater. And after

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Speaker 4: the show, a friend sent him an article and it

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Speaker 4: was the cut article that we're going to be talking

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Speaker 4: about today. And in the article it says a lot

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Speaker 4: of things about this acting group. And when this was

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Speaker 4: brought up, it was like a group of people that

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Speaker 4: are also actors, and a lot of people were talking

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Speaker 4: about how they've been in similar situations or they've been

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Speaker 4: in like in intense acting groups. And I thought, well,

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Speaker 4: we should talk about this on the pod. And yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's a little close to home. The acting group moved

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Speaker 4: from Toronto to Brooklyn, close by to where I live.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think with Sophie being in New York, obviously

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Speaker 1: we're in LA and Sacramento are adjacent. But you know what, Khalio,

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Speaker 1: when you were saying that we're focusing on acting coaches

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Speaker 1: the last two episodes, but just creative groups in general.

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Speaker 1: One thing with creatives like acting, like dancing and performers,

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Speaker 1: you're constantly working on your craft, like you are always

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Speaker 1: seeking coaching and teachings that you're going to advance your career,

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Speaker 1: advance your styles, maybe explore different styles that you haven't

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Speaker 1: done before. And so I think that this particular group

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Speaker 1: seems to have quite a bit of this happening because

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Speaker 1: there are always going to be people that are seeing

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Speaker 1: those that they can try to take it. And so

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Speaker 1: I think with parallels from Chicaina and these acting groups,

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Speaker 1: it was top of mind for Sophie, and I think

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Speaker 1: just being able to have that conversation is going to

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Speaker 1: be interesting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, So thanks again Sophie for bringing this to us.

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Speaker 3: Without further ado, let's get into it.

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Speaker 2: So Michelle Lonsdale Smith, she's an actress, director, teacher. She's

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Speaker 2: been doing this for thirty years. She has a lot

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Speaker 2: of experience in film, TV and theater, and as of today,

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Speaker 2: she is the artistic director and co founder of Grace

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Speaker 2: Moon Arts Company. It's a creative organization that's based in

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Speaker 2: New York, like we were mentioning, and the company has

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Speaker 2: a lot of different programs like performances, workshops, and a conservatory,

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Speaker 2: and it aims to provide a platform for artists to

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Speaker 2: explore and express their craft. Before all of this, she

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Speaker 2: was involved in acting classes and studios such as LS

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Speaker 2: and COEO or Lonsdale Smith and Co. Studios, which is

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Speaker 2: what we're really going to be focusing on today. So

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Speaker 2: this acting studio was a destination for a lot of

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Speaker 2: aspiring actors and people seeking personal and professional development, like

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Speaker 2: we were saying happens really often in this industry, like

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Speaker 2: seeking that guidance and mentorship to help navigate the waters

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Speaker 2: of the industry. Lonzale Smith's teaching style was really intense

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Speaker 2: and was said to be transformative. She put a lot

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Speaker 2: of emphasis on confronting unresolved personal issues to unlock a

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Speaker 2: deeper level of emotional expression on stage.

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Speaker 3: And that sounds really familiar to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's also very similar to what Candice was

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Speaker 1: doing as well.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So her approach was often described as pushing students

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Speaker 2: to explore raw personal emotions through intense and emotionally charged exercises.

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Speaker 3: Ooh, like what we're going to get into it?

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Speaker 2: They had a detailed expose in the cut from a

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Speaker 2: couple of years ago, and it revealed testimonies from twenty

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Speaker 2: six former students.

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Speaker 1: Good for them for coming forward, that's that's all. That

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Speaker 1: is a lot.

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Speaker 2: It brought to light the darker side of her teachings

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Speaker 2: and showcased an alleged environment where students were manipulated into

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Speaker 2: becoming emotionally dependent on Michelle and mentioned how they had

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Speaker 2: lost their sense of identity and personal autonomy. So let's

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Speaker 2: go ahead and break it down.

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Speaker 3: I'm leaning in.

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Speaker 1: But it's also so frustrating because we've we've heard this before.

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Speaker 1: I mean again, we've mentioned this a number of times

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Speaker 1: of how they all just seem to take like the

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Speaker 1: same page from the same damn like how to take

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Speaker 1: advantage of people leaders. Yes, but yes, okay, let's get

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Speaker 1: into it.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So several students have spoken about the intense nature of

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Speaker 2: her classes, which can border.

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Speaker 3: On alleged emotional manipulation.

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Speaker 2: So Michelle allegedly pushed students into very vulnerable states to

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Speaker 2: try to break them, believing that the emotional upheaval would

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Speaker 2: lead to better acting.

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Speaker 1: So she's like trying to say, it's probably like the

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Speaker 1: equivalent of a method actor. It's like really good, So deep,

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Speaker 1: really get into the most vulnerable place to find quote

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Speaker 1: unquote the character.

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Speaker 3: Right, it's not uncommon.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not uncommon. It's like and if anything, You're like, yes,

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Speaker 1: she's getting me into these places I never thought I

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Speaker 1: could find. So okay, I can see where this is

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Speaker 1: going with the emotional manipulation of it.

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Speaker 3: So this is forgive me for I have followed. We'll

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Speaker 3: be right back.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now

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Speaker 1: back to our conversation.

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Speaker 2: Some of her students have come out and said that

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Speaker 2: they felt it was taken to extremes and was psychologically damaging.

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Speaker 2: Michelle reportedly encouraged students to sever personal relationships big red flag,

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Speaker 2: I'm waving a big red flag and change their appearance

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Speaker 2: and reveal very intimate details of their lives to her

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Speaker 2: under the guise of artistic growth. So come confess to

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Speaker 2: me all of your deepest, darkest secrets, so we can

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Speaker 2: really help you grow because I'm assuming, I'm assuming if

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Speaker 2: it's surface level, we're not digging deep into anything.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, as an example, some students were allegedly given notes

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Speaker 2: that included being told to cut their hair, fire their agents,

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Speaker 2: or even sometimes end things with a significant other.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Other reports indicated that Michelle's studio emphasized total commitment to

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Speaker 2: her vision and the studio itself. This includes not just

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Speaker 2: a deep focus on the acting, but also like a

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Speaker 2: devotion to her as a mentor. Some former students felt

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Speaker 2: that this level of dedication ordered on control and pressured

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Speaker 2: them to prioritize her studio over their own personal lives.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that is real extreme manipulation if you're having

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Speaker 1: people cutting their hair. But again, when we're dealing with actors,

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Speaker 1: it's not that crazy. It's not uncommon. It's like this role.

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Speaker 1: You look at Demi Moore and g I Jane. You know,

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Speaker 1: she shaved her head bald, and it was like such

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Speaker 1: a powerful scene an iconic movie, and that doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: that odd.

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Speaker 2: Right, And I know I also agree because I do

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Speaker 2: think back into Chicina too, even like the being told

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Speaker 2: to end things with an agent, manager, or significant other.

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Speaker 2: We've seen both of those examples, or I've seen both

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Speaker 2: of those examples in Chicina as well. So that's why

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Speaker 2: for me, when I was diving into this, it was

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Speaker 2: starting to give cult like it was starting to give. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I have been there before in a situation similar to that.

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Speaker 2: So some former participants really liken the environment to a

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Speaker 2: cult because of the strong sense of the US versus

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Speaker 2: them mentality. I saw that a lot in Chicina as well, and.

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Speaker 3: There were reports of a very.

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Speaker 2: Exclusive atmosphere where loyalty to the studio in Michelle was expected.

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Speaker 3: If you're going to be part of the organization.

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Speaker 2: Anybody who questioned or left the prog would get shamed

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Speaker 2: and ostracized by others that were in it.

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Speaker 1: This goes back to what we were talking about a

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Speaker 1: little bit of last week, is like what makes it

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Speaker 1: a cult, what makes it a high controlled group? And

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Speaker 1: then sometimes those two things are very muddy.

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Speaker 2: So Michelle has been known to encourage focusing on not

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Speaker 2: just acting skills, but also personal transformation.

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Speaker 1: That's like, Candace, our real Candace, Let's go deeper, Let's

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Speaker 1: find that personal connection outside of the craft that you're

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Speaker 1: trying to hone in on.

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Speaker 2: So okay, So some of it was seen as positive,

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Speaker 2: but in some instances it reportedly involved pushing students into

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Speaker 2: confronting personal trauma or breaking down their emotional defenses. Critics

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Speaker 2: pointed out that this could be physically and mentally harmful,

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Speaker 2: particularly when not handled by a professional psychologist or professional

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Speaker 2: psychological care.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, some students felt.

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Speaker 2: That Michelle's programs lacked accountability in terms of helping them

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Speaker 2: actually advance in their personal careers. Students were reporting that

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Speaker 2: the focus was more on their personal growth than actually

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Speaker 2: preparing them for work in the industry.

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Speaker 1: So then we're really getting into the parallels of canvas

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Speaker 1: because she started to muddy acting classes to self help

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Speaker 1: and life coaching and bluring those two lines.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because it and it's you know, it's what their

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Speaker 2: first marketing is like, let me help you learn how

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Speaker 2: to be a better actor, let me help you with this,

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Speaker 2: and then turns around it's like, and you know what

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Speaker 2: will really help personal transformative growth?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So you had mentioned that she is actively well.

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Speaker 1: She's currently the artistic director and co founder of a

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Speaker 1: company I forget Grace Moon Arts. Yes, so even though

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of people that have come forward

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Speaker 1: twenty six people like again, good on those former students

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Speaker 1: for coming forward and discussing what that must have been

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Speaker 1: like for them. But if she's currently in this position,

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Speaker 1: she must still have some students and followers that are

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Speaker 1: buying it.

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Speaker 3: I would assume, right. Yes, so she does have some

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Speaker 3: former students who swear by her.

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Speaker 2: There are people who took her class, like there was

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Speaker 2: an actress from sex Lives from College Girls, among other

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Speaker 2: people who were seeing success in their.

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Speaker 3: Professional lives after taking her classes. Got it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But the students who did come out and speak out,

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Speaker 2: they mentioned that Michelle would blur the lines between personal

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Speaker 2: development and professional training, so it was really hard for

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Speaker 2: them to assess whether they were receiving practical, industry specific

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Speaker 2: training or if the focus was more on serving her

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Speaker 2: own personal philosophies.

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Speaker 1: I think what's hard is when there are people that

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Speaker 1: are meant to be put into a position of teaching

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Speaker 1: that then take credit for the success of the talent

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Speaker 1: that other people have, right, And that parallels a lot

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Speaker 1: of what Robert does, a lot of what it sounds

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Speaker 1: like Candice allegedly is doing, and Michelle she seems to

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Speaker 1: be taking a page right out of that book as well.

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Speaker 2: So other red flags for Michelle students who didn't fully

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Speaker 2: comply with her message or started to question her authority,

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Speaker 2: they would face punitive measures in this group, So any

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Speaker 2: students who resisted or showed signs of independent thought were

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Speaker 2: ostracized and created a further divide between the students and

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Speaker 2: also the outside worlds. And a lot of former students

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Speaker 2: had come out and explained the emotional toll that they

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Speaker 2: felt while taking Michelle's program and struggling with the long

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Speaker 2: term psychological consequences that resulted from Michelle's teachings. A lot

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Speaker 2: of Michelle's former students mentioned estrangement from their families, feelings

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Speaker 2: of inadequacy, and a diminished sense of self. And that

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Speaker 2: was a really common theme among students who attended.

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Speaker 1: Her classes, which we go back to high control group

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Speaker 1: called you have that isolation, the control that's coming in.

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Speaker 1: You know, obviously with a cult, there's a leader, there's leadership,

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Speaker 1: which it sounds like Michelle is like she wants to

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Speaker 1: be the sole voice, and if you challenge her, then

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Speaker 1: you're being punished in some sort of way. So she

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Speaker 1: starts to for me, leaning more into the cult within

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Speaker 1: a high controlled environment. Right absolutely, when we returned the

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Speaker 1: conclusion of our conversation, this is forgive me for I

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Speaker 1: have followed. Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed.

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Speaker 1: Here's the conclusion of our conversation.

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Speaker 2: So when all of this came out, the controversy sparked

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Speaker 2: broader discussions about ethical standards within acting schools and potential

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Speaker 2: dangers of unchecked authority within artistic education. There are students

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Speaker 2: that did defend Michelle and claimed that her methods led

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Speaker 2: to breakthroughs that had really helped them with their careers.

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Speaker 2: Other former students felt very differently and chose to speak

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Speaker 2: up about her methods.

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Speaker 1: That's always so hard, I mean, I think in any group,

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Speaker 1: and obviously we've seen it with Chakaina and how there

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Speaker 1: are people that have gotten out and they've been able

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Speaker 1: to deprogram and take that time to heal. And then

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Speaker 1: when you're outside of a situation looking back in, you're like, okay,

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Speaker 1: you see what was actually going on, But then the

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Speaker 1: people that are still in there are for lack of

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Speaker 1: better word, they're dying on that cross, like they are

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Speaker 1: standing firm into their beliefs of what that is. I'm

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Speaker 1: curious though, if those people that have claimed that her

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Speaker 1: methods led to breakthroughs, if they're still working with her.

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Speaker 2: I also still had plenty of more questions after the research,

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Speaker 2: but I'm glad it has sparked some debate amongst like

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Speaker 2: acting coaches and mentors about what the standards should be

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Speaker 2: when it comes to acting schools, especially something so deep

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Speaker 2: and personal and like moving. Like you know, people talk

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Speaker 2: about like method acting and the things that people have

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Speaker 2: to go through to find that character or even to

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Speaker 2: have that breakthrough within themselves to put on a better

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Speaker 2: or different art.

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Speaker 3: And then where those lines and start to blur.

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Speaker 1: And you hear the horror stories too of like some

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Speaker 1: actors getting stuck into that state of mind, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it starts to question the heath Ledgers when they really

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Speaker 1: took it there to find Joker. And you know sometimes

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Speaker 1: in some cases with Jim Carrey, I mean, they're both

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Speaker 1: incredibly talented actors, but you think about what that process

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Speaker 1: is like coming out of it, when you are going

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Speaker 1: into such a deep, dark state of mind. So it's

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Speaker 1: definitely something to be like cautious of. I know friends

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Speaker 1: that are actors that will take it to that place,

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Speaker 1: like there is a psychological element that they have to

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Speaker 1: make sure that they balance because it can be dangerous.

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Speaker 1: And so for someone to come in with allegedly no

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Speaker 1: training of any sort or be able to provide resources

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Speaker 1: that would help find that balance, it sounds like it's

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Speaker 1: maybe more of a manipulative tool for her allegedly. Those

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Speaker 1: are just the things that I hope that this podcast

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Speaker 1: helps people. Just think about those red flags we were

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Speaker 1: talking about last week. Just will keep hitting it. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna keep hitting these so it's embedded in all of

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Speaker 1: our brains so we know what to look out for exactly,

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Speaker 1: and start that gut feeling we all get every once

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Speaker 1: in a while like why am I feeling this way?

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Speaker 1: And then encouraging us all to start listening to that

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Speaker 1: gut feeling.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, and also saying the quiet part out loud.

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Speaker 2: So I definitely feel. You know, mentorship is it can

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Speaker 2: be very important, it can be very empowering. But if

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Speaker 2: you are out there and you do want to learn

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Speaker 2: a new service, a new skill and new industry, Just

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Speaker 2: please do your research, because there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: people that will claim that they can help you, and

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Speaker 2: you have to, like you said, listen to that inner

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Speaker 2: voice to be able to discern is this really helping me?

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Speaker 2: And if so, at what cost am I allowed to

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Speaker 2: ask questions here? Do I feel safe here? You are

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Speaker 2: ultimately in charge of your own education furthering yourself, So

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Speaker 2: make sure that you have those things in mind when

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Speaker 2: seeking something new, or when wanting to join a new

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Speaker 2: community or an group of any kind. If you feel

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Speaker 2: uncomfortable being able to know the line between challenging yourself

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Speaker 2: and a situation that you want to avoid or you're

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Speaker 2: going to have to get yourself out of one day.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, I think it's important to add that mentoring and

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Speaker 1: programming like this resources to be able to have acting

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Speaker 1: classes and sometimes be able to like tie into like

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Speaker 1: your own personal deepness to find characters like those type

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Speaker 1: of programs, those type of classes and schools exist and

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Speaker 1: they don't have an ulterior motive in any sort of way,

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Speaker 1: and so like there's always going to be the bad apples,

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Speaker 1: and so I think that it's important for us just

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Speaker 1: to reiterate that, like even though we are talking about

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Speaker 1: this particular group that those type of schools, those type

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Speaker 1: of teachers, mentors can be very beneficial to a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, and in this case, it sounds like Michelle

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Speaker 1: was beneficial to some people. It's just maybe to what

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Speaker 1: extreme that she'll go to continue to manipulate people. I

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Speaker 1: wonder if they're still the people that do talk about

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Speaker 1: her in a success story type of way, if they

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Speaker 1: continued with her program, because I just wonder if it's

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Speaker 1: that continuation where she starts to get that power trip

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Speaker 1: and she starts to feel some type of control versus

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Speaker 1: maybe more of a one off. But like I said,

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Speaker 1: not sure, but just to be mindful again, these are

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Speaker 1: the red flags for people to be looking out for.

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Speaker 1: But also important just to state that, like, there are

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Speaker 1: good people out there that really do want to provide

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Speaker 1: a service and better people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, better themselves or their talent or they're yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're seeing these common themes.

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Speaker 3: So I hope the.

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Speaker 2: More that we can call it out and notice when

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Speaker 2: something is wrong and that hey, this this doesn't sound

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Speaker 2: like a positive group to be a part of, I

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Speaker 2: think we should draw some attention to it. I think

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Speaker 2: it's more now are people able to see and call

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Speaker 2: it out because of how common it has become and

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Speaker 2: how much we are hearing about it in the past,

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Speaker 2: you know, a few years. But I definitely encourage any

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Speaker 2: of our listeners to go check out the detail expose

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Speaker 2: in the cut. Twenty six former students is a lot,

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Speaker 2: so I know, I am still really curious about this

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Speaker 2: group and I want to hear more as well.

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Speaker 1: Excellent Clea, thank you for sharing this story. Fascinating and

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Speaker 1: definitely going to do my own research and diving deeper

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Speaker 1: into this because again, just good on the twenty six

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Speaker 1: former students for coming forward and sharing their truth and

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Speaker 1: their experience, and that's what this is all about, is

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Speaker 1: just continuing to use our voices and to speak up

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Speaker 1: and to find that safe space. So thanks Kalia, thank

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Speaker 1: you everyone, and we'll see you next week.

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Speaker 2: Forgive Me For I Have Followed as a production from

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Speaker 2: wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast network,

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Speaker 2: hosted by me Khalia Gray and me Jessicasabetto Forgive Me

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Speaker 2: For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson and

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Speaker 2: Sophie Spencer's. Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself, Wilmer Balderama,

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Speaker 2: Leo Clem, and Aaron Burlison at WV Sound.

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Speaker 5: This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original

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Speaker 5: music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts

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Speaker 5: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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Speaker 5: you listen to your favorite shows. See you next week,

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Speaker 5: See you next week,