1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:01,920 Speaker 1: I feel like whenever you ask me how do you 2 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: define sex? I have a kind of a frustrating answer 3 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: because my answer is to really think about, like, what 4 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: does creating a clear definition of sex do? 5 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 2: Who does that serve? Right? 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: I think that when that line was drawn initially, initially, 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: you know, traditionally, like specially in purity culture, where it 8 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: was like, this is the point where you have your virginity, 9 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: this is the point where you lose your virginity. That 10 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: defines how likely you are to be able to get married, 11 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. Right, all of those things you're worth, 12 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: sometimes your literal financial worth as a woman. 13 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 2: So I just try to challenge. 14 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: The idea that we need to agree on that because 15 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: why And I will say, like, I just think that 16 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: everybody gets to decide what feels like sex to them. 17 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 3: I'm hope, ordered and welcome to voiceover a space where 18 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 3: we're learning and unlearning all the myths we're taught about 19 00:00:54,400 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 3: love and relationships. Today we're talking about something I think 20 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 3: everyone will feel seen by. It's how to untangle the 21 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 3: physical and emotional and romantic relationships. And we have a 22 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 3: real certified sex therapist to help us Casey Danner is 23 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 3: the creator of Queer Sex Therapy on Instagram, founder of 24 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 3: the queer sex therapy practice, the Expansive Group, and most recently, 25 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 3: author of the book Feel It All, which is an 26 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 3: amazing book that feels both like a gut punch and 27 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 3: a warm hug. Casey grew up as an evangelical Christian, 28 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 3: and in college she realized she was queer, leading her 29 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 3: down a path of exploration and self discovery that required 30 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 3: her to unlearn everything she was taught about what relationships 31 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 3: should look like, how we should love, and especially how 32 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 3: we should approach sex. This is something I can definitely 33 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 3: relate to, and I think no matter the religion you 34 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 3: grew up and it's ingrained in our society. So sit 35 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 3: back and relax while Casey and I start to untangle 36 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 3: all these complicated feelings about how to approach sex in relationships. 37 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 4: Casey, welcome to the show. 38 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 2: So glad to be here and excited to talk about 39 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 2: this topic. 40 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, doven into this topic for an extended amount 41 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: of time on a podcast yet, So this is exciting. 42 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 3: I want to get into your book a little because 43 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 3: in it you wrote we're all living on the edge 44 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 3: of a sexual awakening, both individually and collectively, and I 45 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 3: want to know what that means to you. 46 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: I think that a lot of us are taught that 47 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: in life you have one sexual awakening and that's puberty, 48 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: which which is such an unfortunate lie because how many 49 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: of us are having great sexual experiences during puberty? 50 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 2: None of us. I mean, I don't know. I haven't 51 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: met anybody yet, so you tell me. 52 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,239 Speaker 4: Though, it's like a very, very ward time. 53 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: So I really encourage this idea because I see it 54 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: in my work with with couples, relationships individuals that like, 55 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: we're always going through some kind of wakening. Our bodies 56 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: are always changing, so we are always renegotiating our relationship 57 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: to things. Right, Like, you turn thirty, you turn forty, 58 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: suddenly you've got back pain. Now for the first time, 59 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: you need accommodations around sex, and that's a sort of awakening. Wow, 60 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: I don't have to push my body through pain to 61 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: have great sex. There's moments like that that we're always having. 62 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: So that's on the individual level, and then I think 63 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: on the collective level, we are constantly, you know, standing 64 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: on the shoulders of previous generations to better understand how 65 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: to teach and talk about sex. So even seeing the 66 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: ways that like parents are so much better equipped to 67 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: talk about consent from an early age, we are going 68 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: to continue to see. I'm going to use sex positivity, 69 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: even though I've complicated feelings about that word, but I 70 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: think we'll continue to just learn a lot from people 71 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: younger than us. 72 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 3: Frankly, what are your complications around the word sex positivity? 73 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: You know, obviously sex negativity and purity culture have been 74 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: so detrimental, but I do think that there has been 75 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: a period of time we're still kind of in it 76 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: where we've her culture has swung a little bit too 77 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: far on the other side of the pendulum, where we're 78 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: in this space of what has now come to be 79 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: known as compulsory sexuality, which is this idea that sex 80 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: is so great, so amazing, so important that if you're 81 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: not having it, something is wrong with you, right, so 82 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: sort of the opposite of sex negativity. And so what 83 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: I try to encourage in my book and in my 84 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: work is where is that middle ground where actually there's 85 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: nothing that makes anyone good, bad, right, wrong, healthy, unhealthy, 86 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: that actually people get to custom tailor what works for them. 87 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 3: Something I think of when I'm thinking of learning from 88 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 3: the generations before us, and that pendulum swing is like 89 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 3: when I was sort of introduced to sex positivity, it 90 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 3: was twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen. I was in college, an 91 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 3: SCC school. Everyone was drinking, everyone was hooking up all 92 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 3: the time, Like hookup culture was so intense and so heightened. 93 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 3: And I do think that like hookup culture has really 94 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 3: scarred so many women and like and men, if I'm 95 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 3: being frank, like so many and it gave us this 96 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 3: toolbox that was just like so confusing. And I think 97 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 3: that is one of the reasons why we've seen this 98 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 3: pendulum swing back to like celibacy, because we were all 99 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 3: having as much sex as we wanted to, I guess, 100 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 3: and even like wanted to yeah, right right, but we 101 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 3: realized that it's not maybe the kind of sex we 102 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 3: want to have. 103 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 104 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 1: I do think it is the pendulum trying to find 105 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: its way back to center. 106 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 3: That's it, right, Because you know, I was in headlines 107 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 3: for a little while about being celibate, and I was like. 108 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 2: Whoa, whoa whoa whoa whoa, Like. 109 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 3: I just never want anyone to feel like there's sort 110 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 3: of a one size fits all answer hookup culture and 111 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 3: or celibacy, like can the pendulum find the center? 112 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, And can our individual pendulums find our 113 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: own center? 114 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 2: Right? 115 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: Like, it sounds like it was an incredible choice for you, 116 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 1: and it might. 117 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 2: Not be the best choice of everybody. 118 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 3: Yes, but I want to talk to you about sex 119 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 3: panic because I was reading about it and I was like, oh, oh, oh, 120 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 3: my god, that's actually me. But I would love to 121 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 3: hear in your own words, kind of like, how do 122 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 3: you describe sex panic? 123 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 4: What are the signs of it? How could someone spot 124 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 4: it in themselves. 125 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: I work with a lot of couples in relationships that 126 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: come in and they say something along the lines of 127 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: we're doing really well, we're really happy, we're just not 128 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: having enough sex and that is creating conflict. And usually 129 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: by the time folks make their way into my office, 130 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: they're pretty panicked about that reality. They're like, the fact 131 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: that we're not having as much sex as our friends 132 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: who are in a relationship, or this couple in the 133 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 1: media makes us wonder if we should break up if 134 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 1: we're not right for each other. And there are, of 135 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: course cases where like that becomes important enough that it 136 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: might end a relationship. But I find that a lot 137 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: of my work is helping people sow down and be like, wait, wait, wait, 138 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: not enough by whose standards? 139 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 3: Right? 140 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: Like is it enough for each of you? Is it 141 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: enough for the two of you together? Does it matter 142 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: that it's not as much as so and so or 143 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: this whatever? And so it's really trying to help people 144 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: get back in touch. I compare this to like hunger 145 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: and fullness cues with eating get back in touch with 146 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: their own sexual desire cues so that they can make 147 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: decisions based off of their values and not based on 148 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: a comparison. 149 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 3: Is it comparison that usually is at the root of 150 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 3: the conflict usually totally. 151 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 2: I think it's comparison. 152 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: Whether it's comparison to a previous relationship you've been in 153 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: a lot of times. Frankly, it's comparison to a fantasy. 154 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: It's comparison to this idea that like, this is what 155 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: I thought a marriage or a relationship should look like. 156 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 2: And so they're not even comparing it to something real. 157 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: Because I will tell you, couples go through and ebb 158 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: and flow as it relates to sex, and it's a 159 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: very very normal experience to have times where a relationship 160 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: is prioritizing other parts of that relationship that aren't being 161 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: naked together. 162 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 3: On an individual level, if you have a client who's 163 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 3: struggling with sex panic, who's not partnered, what does that 164 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 3: usually look and sound like? 165 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: I think if somebody is coming in and they're experiencing 166 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: distress because they're not having in their eyes enough sex, ye, 167 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: I'm not going to write that feeling off and. 168 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: Just be like, by who's standard, You're. 169 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: Fine, right, Like totally there might be actual grief there. 170 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: If there's somebody that's like, I've been looking, I've been 171 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: on the apps, I've been going on dates, nothing's panning out. 172 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: My body is ready for that connection. I'm not going 173 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: to talk anybody out of that. Like we can grieve that, Yeah, 174 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: you're longing for one thing and that's not happening. And 175 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: if there are voices and components of that distress that 176 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: are like you're not a real man because of this, right, 177 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: or you're not really queen because you're not having queer sex, 178 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: I do even start to help them piece apart, like 179 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: what is actually you and what is oppressive messaging that's 180 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: made its way into your life. 181 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:28,079 Speaker 3: When you're working with someone who wants to like reconnect 182 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 3: to maybe their sexuality, their desire and maybe like get 183 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 3: these cobwebs out of like fantasy and comparison, and this 184 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 3: is the type of sexual person I'm supposed to be. 185 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 4: Where do you start with them? 186 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 3: Because that was one of the reasons why I sort 187 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 3: of went celibate and gave it all up for a 188 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 3: little while, because I realized, oh, my gosh, I'm having 189 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 3: so much sex that number one I don't even enjoy 190 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 3: number two. It leaves me feeling like so empty, and 191 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 3: I don't even know what my relationship to desire and 192 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 3: sex is without. 193 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 4: A man in the picture. 194 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 3: So how do you feel about sort of like the 195 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 3: celibacy approach. 196 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 4: What's your advice to people? Like, what are your thoughts there? 197 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, my gosh, I myself just had a window of 198 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: celibacy that was really intentional and got a lot out 199 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: of it. Like I am never going to to speak 200 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: generally against any kind of sexual decision, because I think 201 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: in the right context, at the right time, it can 202 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: absolutely make sense. There are ways that we get to 203 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: know ourselves potentially by having sex, and there are ways 204 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: that we get to know ourselves by not having sex. Yeah, 205 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: So if somebody's like, I feel like. 206 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: I've gotten that one part of it down. 207 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: I know what it's like to be really engaged with culture, 208 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: but like, I don't actually know what parts of me 209 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: I might meet if I'm putting my energy elsewhere, right, 210 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: because it's I think celibacy. We just think about it 211 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: as like taking away to sex, But what we don't 212 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: often talk about is the energy that that opens up. 213 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: Because when what you're doing is like looking for partnership, 214 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: looking for sex, your energy is erected towards that goal. 215 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: So when celibacy is now on the table, it might 216 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: open your world up to maybe a new hobby, right, 217 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: or engaging in friendships in a different way, engaging with 218 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 1: your body in a different way, engaging with depending on 219 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: what hellabacity looks like for you, might look like, engaging 220 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 1: in self pleasure in a different way. 221 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 4: So yeah, I believe. 222 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: That that if not done out of a should, if 223 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: not done out of shame totally, it can really open 224 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: something up. 225 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,719 Speaker 3: I love that you clarified not done out of a 226 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 3: should or not done out of shame, because I don't 227 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 3: know what your experience is with this, and I wasn't 228 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: going to bring this up. I went to an SLAA meeting, 229 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 3: a Sex Love Attics anonymous meeting the other day, and 230 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 3: I did feel like shame was in the room with us, 231 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 3: you know what, Like I. 232 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 4: Was a lot. 233 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: I've read this law manual to bag, I was like, 234 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: not question air, No. 235 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: It's great. I mean I got a lot out of it, frankly. 236 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 3: Okay, So like, what's your take on that, what's your 237 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 3: experience with that? 238 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 4: Yeah? 239 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I just I think whenever we talk about sex, 240 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: because of the way we were all raised, whether it 241 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: was religious or not, shame is going to be in 242 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: the room. Yeah, because we just we were taught that 243 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: even the word sex carry is shame. So it doesn't 244 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: surprise me, right, Like I do think, Yeah, I think 245 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: for folks that are considering busy, especially if they're feeling 246 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: like there's some compulsive behaviors happening, or if the sex 247 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: that they've been having has been a coping mechanism mm hmm, 248 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: I would just say, like whether it's a group, a therapist, 249 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: or even one person, if it's a sponsor or a friend, 250 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: just be checking the motivation with that person, right, Let's 251 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: just notice where it's coming from. I had the experience 252 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: of moving into the period of celibacy and then going 253 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: to therapy talking with my therapist and he was like, listen, 254 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: I support you on this, but I also just want 255 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: to say, like, I don't think this is the only 256 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: way for you to work on the things that you 257 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: want to work on. So I think whenever we get 258 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: into a rigid place of like this is the only 259 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: way somebody who struggles with X stop struggling, I think 260 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:00,359 Speaker 1: we've probably. 261 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:00,839 Speaker 2: On a little too far. 262 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 3: I agree, because my next question, and something I would 263 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 3: just love your thoughts on, is like, sometimes I do 264 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 3: have conversations with women who have been engaging with celibacy 265 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 3: for a while, and I want to reiterate how absolutely 266 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 3: healing I think it can be. But there have been 267 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 3: conversations I've had with people where I'm like, Okay, are 268 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:21,719 Speaker 3: we healing or are we avoiding? 269 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? Totally. 270 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: When I hear people grappling with this question, I think 271 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: also the question of a sexuality comes up to like 272 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: am I healing? 273 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 2: Am I avoiding? 274 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: Or is it maybe who I am that actually not 275 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: having sex is what's right for me? In an ongoing way, 276 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: avoidance is for many people a symptom of trauma. Doesn't 277 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: matter what the trauma is. You know, our bodies will 278 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: move to protect us by avoiding situations that remind us 279 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 1: of where we got hurt. And so if sex is 280 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: an area of life where we got hurt, we may 281 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 1: be pulled to avoid sex. But I think avoidance there 282 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: is a little bit of a side of judgment. I 283 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: think to the word avoidance because it might also be 284 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: that you're taking a break from something that feels scary 285 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: while you develop the skills and internal resources to figure 286 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: out how to circle back to it in a way 287 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 1: that doesn't re traumatize you. That's not avoidance, right, But 288 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: what could be avoidance is I had a bad sexual experience. 289 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: I no longer want to get anywhere near sex, even 290 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: though sex is important to me, and I'm not even 291 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: having conversations about it in therapy or with my community 292 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: such that I'm like getting pretty stagnant around it, right, Like, 293 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: that might be avoidance. 294 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 3: So what's your advice for someone who wants to have 295 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 3: sex but is coming from a place of fear. 296 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, there's a lot of sexual things that we 297 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: can do in between celibacy and hookup culture. And I'm 298 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: not even talking about having sex. I'm talking about what 299 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: would it be like to read a book where the 300 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: word sex is mentioned and just notice what happens your body? 301 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: What would be like to listen to a podcast where 302 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: sex is a topic, like can we slowly approach sexuality? 303 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: Noticing like, Okay, having sex right now doesn't feel safe? 304 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: What does feel safe? Just talking to my friends about 305 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: sex feel safe? We do for folks with sexual trauma, especially, 306 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: often the work looks like starting I'm going to use 307 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: the phrase very small, but those small things feel very, 308 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: very big to folks who have had these experiences. 309 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 4: Totally starting small. Of course. 310 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 3: One of the best parts about being celibate for me 311 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 3: for a little while because my goal was one year. 312 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 3: But I'm gonna be honest with you, Casey, I was 313 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 3: like six months. 314 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 4: In and then I was like, that's just my truth, 315 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 4: that's my job. 316 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, love that for you. 317 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 3: But the best part of being celibate for me for 318 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 3: a little while was that I felt like I finally 319 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 3: got to understand my own desire, what I want and 320 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 3: what I needed, like without a man in the picture, specifically, 321 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 3: what is your advice for someone who's having a difficult 322 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 3: time connecting to desire, well, all of. 323 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 2: Us, no matter gender. 324 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: We're raised to be cut off from our bodies, right, 325 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: And I use food as an example because I think 326 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: it's one we can really relate to where we're not 327 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: taught to go, Am I hungry? 328 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 4: Okay? 329 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 2: Then I'll eat? 330 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 4: Am I full? 331 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 2: Then I'll stop. 332 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: We're taught to go what does my body look like 333 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: compared to what it should look like? And how should 334 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: I moderate my food and take based off of that? 335 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: And we do the same thing with sex. What amount 336 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: of sex am I having versus the amount I've been 337 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: taught I should be having? And how do I move 338 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: myself in that direction? Which has nothing to do with desire? 339 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: And so I think it's learning to clue into any 340 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: of your body sensations can put you on a path 341 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: towards cluing into desire, because desire that's pretty abstract term. 342 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 2: It's vague. What does it mean to feel desire? 343 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: But what we can start to talk about is here 344 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: are some of the ways that your body might signal 345 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: to you desire or arousal is happening, right? Is it 346 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: I got goosebumps? Is it ooh, I feel warm? Or 347 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: my upper lip is starting to sweat. I'm staring and 348 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: I can't look away, right, like quantified, making concrete. What 349 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: do I do when I'm in a desirous state. I 350 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: get awkward, I get weird. Like, yeah, sometimes tuning into 351 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: desire means noticing when you get weird, right, So, like 352 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,360 Speaker 1: I think learning how to get specific with yourself. 353 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 3: Another one of the reasons why I decided to take 354 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 3: a step back from sex and dating and everything was 355 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 3: because I sort of like had this flashback to one 356 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 3: of my very first sexual experiences, because I started having 357 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 3: sex like very young. I was thirteen, and it was 358 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 3: in hiding with someone that loved me, but during a 359 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 3: very chaotic time in my family. So it was like 360 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 3: sort of a coping mechanism. Whatever, we don't need to 361 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 3: get into all of that, and I sort of felt like, 362 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 3: oh my gosh, like I have sort of been replaying 363 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 3: this script like my whole life. Yeah, So I wanted 364 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 3: to ask you, like, how impactful do you think our 365 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 3: earlier sexual experiences are, Like how do they shape our 366 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 3: relationships to sex and desire? And do you think they 367 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 3: kind of define our sex lives? And if so, how 368 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 3: do we untangle that? Yeah? 369 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: I think I think they're tremendously impactful. I mean, it's 370 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,479 Speaker 1: what research shows. But I wouldn't go as far as 371 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 1: to say as they define us. I would say they 372 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: set us on a path. But as we get older, 373 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: that path has some forks in the road, right, And 374 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: unless we're sort of like doing the work, we will 375 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 1: probably continue walking straight ahead. But if we're, if we 376 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: have the support that we need, if we get the 377 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: accurate information, the resources that we need, we develop the 378 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: skills to take the risk of veering off of that path, right, 379 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: trying sex in the light instead of and hiding, seeing 380 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 1: what it feels like, right, So I think it gives 381 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: you a sort of like etching. And then I think 382 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: that community, accurate information, understanding the impact of oppression, all 383 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: of those things starts to put you in choice. 384 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. 385 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 3: I'm thinking of so many of us who have had 386 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 3: like damaging early sexual experiences and how we've like stumbled 387 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 3: through so many like bad sort of sexual encounters, Like. 388 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 2: How do you how do you get to be okay 389 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 2: again after that? 390 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 4: Yeah? 391 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 2: Totally. 392 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: I mean, when we're developing a relationship with anything, one 393 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: of the things I abody is taking in is the ratio 394 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: of positive experiences. 395 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 2: We have with that thing. 396 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: Neutral experiences, negative experiences. So if you have had a 397 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 1: ton of negative, unsafe, whatever it is, experiences with sex, 398 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: it's going to take a number of positive experiences with 399 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: sex for your nervous system to start to trust this 400 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 1: is not just a scary thing. 401 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 2: That's why I start so. 402 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: Small, because we totally have a positive conversation about sex 403 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: that can be impactful in starting to heal what has 404 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: gone wrong. 405 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 3: And also, something that you've just made me think of 406 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 3: is like I think when we say the word sex, 407 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 3: people always think like full blown sex. 408 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 4: Maybe they think straight sex. 409 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 3: But I would love to know sort of how you 410 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 3: just generally define sex because to me, I'm like, obviously, 411 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 3: if you're holding someone's hand, that's not sex. But I'm 412 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 3: like starting small and these little like romantic gestures, physical gestures, like. 413 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 4: I do think people really underestimate them. 414 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: And you know, there might be people who holding hands 415 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,199 Speaker 1: feels pretty sexual for them, right maybe maybe there's like 416 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 1: a handkink that they have and that feels extraordinarily horny 417 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: for them, Right Like. 418 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 2: Who am I to say that's not sex? 419 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna But to your point that being said, 420 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: teaching people how to value things outside of penetration is 421 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: a huge part of what I do. 422 00:20:55,359 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 3: What is the biggest misconception when it comes to sexual desire. 423 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: HM, that everyone experiences it spontaneously, that everyone who will 424 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: just out of nowhere experienced desire, when actually the vast 425 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 1: majority of people of filth is especially need to develop 426 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: it pretty intentionally, especially. 427 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 2: In a long term relationship. 428 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 4: Say more about that. 429 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 1: So this is coming out of Emily Nagovski's research that 430 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: I highly recommend reading Come as you Are if you 431 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: haven't already, where she talks about the different types of desire. 432 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: So there are some people who lean towards ten, towards 433 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: more spontaneous desire, meaning they can get horny out of nowhere, 434 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: doesn't even need to be much of a queue, it 435 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: just happens, right, Yeah. And then there are folks that 436 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: have more responsive desire, meaning that the context they're in, 437 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: the person they're with, how it's going between the two 438 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: of them, the room that they're in, how their day went, 439 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: has a huge impact on the likelihood that they're going 440 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: to become aroused. And so we have a lot of 441 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: people out here having like super busy days, haven't gotten 442 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: a chance to take care of themselves. Their partner gets 443 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: home from work and they're expecting themselves to be turned on, 444 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: and that is just how most bodies operate. 445 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 3: That's so funny because you say that's not how most 446 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 3: bodies operate, but it's like that's how we all feel 447 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 3: like we should be operating. 448 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: Oh of course people will start to think I'm not 449 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 1: attracted to my partner. 450 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 2: And you know that could be the case, right, I'm 451 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: not gonna write that off. 452 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: But there's a lot we can try to parse these 453 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 1: vari bills apart I do. 454 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 3: I have so much worry about my married friends who 455 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 3: come with a lot of Christian shame, and I think 456 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 3: there are specifically a lot of people who do have 457 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 3: this experience with having sex in secret under the understanding 458 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 3: that it comes because you're breaking rules. 459 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 4: Do you see what I mean? 460 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 3: Like, I specifically have this one friend who is so 461 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 3: not interested in sex anymore because it's a available to her. 462 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 3: She's married now, and for the first time ever, she 463 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 3: has the choice, it's her actual choice to not have sex. 464 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 2: It makes so much sense to me. 465 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 3: It makes so much sense to me, And she doesn't 466 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 3: even want to go near her partner where does someone 467 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 3: like that begin because I feel like that is probably 468 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 3: so many women who their whole lives were told don't 469 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 3: like sex, don't engage with it, and then you get 470 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 3: married and you're supposed to immediately love it. I mean, 471 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 3: I don't know how do you unentangle that? 472 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: No, that only are you supposed to immediately love it, 473 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: You're supposed to know what you're doing at it. The 474 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: hell knows what they're doing there for sex. But yes, 475 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: I feel so much empathy for this person and for 476 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: anyone struggling in this way. And I think part of 477 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: this is that we are attracted to what's familiar. What's 478 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: familiar feels safe, even if what's familiar isn't safe, right, Yeah, 479 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: so yeah it probably My guess would be a doesn't 480 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: really feel that safe to be like engaging in like 481 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 1: sex that's above board, it's untotally right. Like, I think 482 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: there's also something to be said to this layer of 483 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: like some of us are attracted to forbiddenness, Like forbiddenness. 484 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 2: Can be very erotic for people. But I do think that. 485 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: For a lot of people want sex starts to feel 486 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: on the table, then yeah, there's an erotic component that 487 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: gets lost for them. 488 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 4: As well. Totally. 489 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 3: There was something about the entire sort of boys sober 490 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 3: thing that was in a way erotic because I was like, 491 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 3: I can't have it, but and it almost makes you 492 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,959 Speaker 3: want it again. So taking it off the table I 493 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 3: think can be helpful. 494 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's an approach and exercise that some sex 495 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: therapists will do with folks is to experiment with taking 496 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: it off the table and see what room that makes 497 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: for parts of them that might desire sex. 498 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 3: What's one piece of advice you give to almost all 499 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 3: of your clients, and it comes to having a more 500 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 3: fulfilling sex life. 501 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: I would say that as you're sort of becoming aware 502 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: of what might my next sexual awakening be, let go 503 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: of the idea that it happens like on a yoga 504 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: mad in a beautiful setting when you're feeling calmed, like 505 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: the turmoil that is being stirred up inside of you 506 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: right now. Maybe it's because of how you feel about 507 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: the world. Maybe it's because of how you feel with 508 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 1: a partner that is fodder for your sexual awakening. I 509 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: say in the book, sometimes the sound of a sexual 510 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: awakening is a scream, and I really do believe that 511 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: sometimes they are born from Rock Bottoms. 512 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 4: Yes, I agree completely. 513 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 3: I love that you say it probably won't be on 514 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 3: a yoga mat now. I do think people are really 515 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 3: waiting for everything to be perfect, for all elements to 516 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 3: be perfect, for the perfect person to run in. 517 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: The magic is really in learning how to be with 518 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: how challenging life can be. 519 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 2: On repeating like, that really is where the magic is. 520 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: I think the first step towards awakening can be a 521 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: terrifying one. 522 00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 2: Like if you're scared. 523 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: I don't mean like scared because you're traumatized, but if 524 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: you're a little bit scared, it might be a sign 525 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: that you're in the middle of one right now. 526 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 3: Watch out, your sexual awakening maybe coming, or maybe it's 527 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 3: happening to you right now. If so, I hope you're 528 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 3: embracing it and having fun getting to know yourself and 529 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 3: what you want. I want to give a big thank 530 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 3: you to Casey for talking to us. I'll be keeping 531 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 3: a lot of what she said in mind as I 532 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 3: move forward in this journey, and thank you all for listening. 533 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 3: Talk Next Week, Boys Sover is a production of iHeart Podcasts. 534 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 3: I'm your host, Hope Ordered. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, 535 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 3: and Julie Pinero. Our supervising producer is Emily Meronoff engineering 536 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 3: by Bahed Fraser and mixing and mastering by. 537 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:57,959 Speaker 4: A Boo Zafar. 538 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 3: If you liked this episode, please tell a friend and 539 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 3: don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to boy Sober 540 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get 541 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:09,479 Speaker 3: your favorite shows.