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Speaker 1: Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: being with us on this special bonus podcast of Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. We are previewing an upcoming Oxygen

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Speaker 1: special called The Jane Doe Murders, and having prosecuted a

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Speaker 1: Jane Doe murder myself, they are very, very difficult to handle.

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Speaker 1: Our team at Crime Online and Crime Stories, We're thrilled

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Speaker 1: to partner again with the true crime TV network Oxygen.

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Speaker 1: Oxygen has so many awesome true crime specials and series,

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Speaker 1: including our program in Justice with Nancy Grace, that I

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Speaker 1: adore making and feeling that we are making a change

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Speaker 1: in this world, and I'm thrilled to tell you about

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Speaker 1: their upcoming to our special, The Jane Doe Murders. It

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Speaker 1: premiers this Sunday, January three, seven pm Eastern and Pacific

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Speaker 1: on Oxygen. You know I've covered a lot of investigations

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Speaker 1: where the victim of a violent crime remains unidentified. A

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Speaker 1: John Doe, a Jane Doe, a baby Doe. Did you

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Speaker 1: know in the US alone, there are nearly forty thousand

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Speaker 1: open cases where investigators are unable to identify the victim.

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Speaker 1: Can you even imagine someone you love deeply going missing

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Speaker 1: and you never see or hear from them again. You're

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Speaker 1: left wondering what happened to them? Are they alive, are

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Speaker 1: they dead? Have they started a new life, do they

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Speaker 1: just not care about you enough to even let you

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Speaker 1: know they're alive? And then the awful specter that they

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Speaker 1: are in fact dead and have met with foul play.

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Speaker 1: Without identification, there can really be no justice for the

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Speaker 1: victims families, and these cases often go unsolved because with

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Speaker 1: every crime, you start with who is the victim now?

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Speaker 1: In Oxygen's new special to Jane Doe Murders, Yolanda McClary,

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Speaker 1: a renowned forensic specialist and a former Las Vegas crime

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Speaker 1: investigator who specializes in recovery of DNA, makes it her

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Speaker 1: mission to help give Jane Doe their names back. Using

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Speaker 1: groundbreaking new forensic technology DNA databases, Yolanda and her team

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Speaker 1: of genealogists set out to help local law enforcements solve

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Speaker 1: a twenty three year old murder and reveal the identity

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Speaker 1: of a woman left for dead in the remote woods

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Speaker 1: of Polk County, Oregon. They've got nothing but bones, but

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Speaker 1: Yolanda works feverishly to piece together what happened to Jane

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Speaker 1: Doe and hopefully somehow uncovered clues that will help open

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Speaker 1: new roads in the case. Joining me right now is

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Speaker 1: our friend, forensic specialist death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan Joe,

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Speaker 1: I know I'm watching the Jane Doe murders. Hey, listen

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Speaker 1: to this trailer, Joe Scott, that came out on this

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Speaker 1: clarry and here sat this skull all by itself for

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Speaker 1: twenty three years. We haven't been able to figure out

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Speaker 1: who this lady is. Looky, she was unfound. How do

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Speaker 1: you start an investigation when that's the biggest roadblock. These

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Speaker 1: victims and their families deserve answers. They lost their lives,

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Speaker 1: not their names. This kind of investigative work is very

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Speaker 1: different than just genealogy. We have no clue who this

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Speaker 1: person is. We looked at birth records, marriage records, employment records,

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Speaker 1: so it has to be the daughter of one of

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Speaker 1: those remaining siblings. Her family needs to know what happened

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Speaker 1: to her because without her name, her killer's name remains unknown.

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Speaker 1: She was someone's mother, daughter, or a sister. To be

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Speaker 1: able to give them back their name, please everything to me.

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Speaker 1: The Jane Doe Murders A one night special event Sunday,

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Speaker 1: January third and seven only an oxygenal Crime FO seven.

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Speaker 1: You know you're hearing from our friends at Oxygen and

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Speaker 1: they're upcoming to our special The Jane Doe Murders A

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Speaker 1: premiers Sunday, January three at seven pm Eastern end Pacific.

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Speaker 1: Let's go to Joseph Scott, Morgan, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University,

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Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: I will never forget the Jane Doe murderer. I prosecuted,

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Speaker 1: and her face still haunts me. The guy we believe

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Speaker 1: is a serial killer, and I had to have a

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Speaker 1: facial reconstructionist work on what she would have looked like

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Speaker 1: in life. Now she was only partially skeletonized, there was

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Speaker 1: part of her left to work with. But in this

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Speaker 1: p County case, I mean, they've got nothing but bones.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, Yeah, and that makes it particularly difficult. Nancy.

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Speaker 1: You know some of the things that we look for

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Speaker 1: in a regular investigation, where you know we have someone

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Speaker 1: that is recently deceased, you're completely absent this in this context.

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Speaker 1: You don't have a fleshly body before you don't have

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Speaker 1: somebody that you can actually look at and say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this person fits into this particular group. They they're wearing

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Speaker 1: these types of clothes, I have this hair color, eye color,

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Speaker 1: that's sort of You're absent all of that and the

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Speaker 1: only thing you're like, wait a minute, right there. I

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Speaker 1: just want to put that theory that you're correctly of

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Speaker 1: course stating, Joe Scott, to reality. Here's a way to

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Speaker 1: bring it home. For instance, when Lacy Peterson's body was found,

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Speaker 1: they try to determine what she wearing the same thing

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Speaker 1: she had worn the night before. I believe Scott Peterson

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Speaker 1: got his haircut and Lacy had been with him, and

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Speaker 1: they were trying to figure out did the clothes matchup.

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Speaker 1: That's important to a timeline because it can help place

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Speaker 1: had she gone home, had she put on her pj's

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Speaker 1: before she was killed? Was she wearing something different the

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Speaker 1: next day to walk the dog Mackenzie in the park.

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Speaker 1: But without clothes or idea or anything. That's just what

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Speaker 1: you're saying. It makes it so much more difficult, Joe Scott. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it does. And you know the first thing you think

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Speaker 1: about when you find a body, particularly of what appears

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Speaker 1: to be a young woman and they're nude. The first

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Speaker 1: thing you're thinking about is very sinister things Like you

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Speaker 1: mentioned serial killers bodies, they're completely stripped of clothing. Maybe

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Speaker 1: they've taken them as trophies, or maybe animals have walked

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Speaker 1: off with a clothing or maybe a minute, hold your

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Speaker 1: horses when you say they took them as trophies, break

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Speaker 1: it down, man, Come on, not everybody's investigated thousands of

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Speaker 1: death scenes like you when you say trophies. For instance,

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Speaker 1: I remember a case where the killer try to keep

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Speaker 1: the driver's license of every victim. Hello, the cops found it.

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Speaker 1: Who else would have all those driver's license except the killer?

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Speaker 1: He kept it like trophy. He's like, what are you doing?

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Speaker 1: You know we were talking about clothing. Take it? Did

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Speaker 1: the killer? Of course, it's a man take any trophies.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not a man hater. Okay, So you've got

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott right here. I love him, I love my husband.

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Speaker 1: Point is, statistically, we know it's a man, and not

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Speaker 1: only that, but the m O, the modus operandi, method

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Speaker 1: of operation, the way her body was left. But we

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Speaker 1: don't know any of those details, Joe Scott, because oh

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Speaker 1: we've got our bones. Yeah, And you know, Nancy, for

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Speaker 1: me working a lot of these cases like this over

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Speaker 1: the course of my career, one of the biggest pieces

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Speaker 1: of information that you have coming out of this is

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Speaker 1: where they are found. Who had access to this particular area.

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Speaker 1: Is it immediately adjacent to a roadway or did they

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Speaker 1: go deep, deep, deep into the woods to discard the body?

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Speaker 1: So that is a big first step that you have

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Speaker 1: to take with this case. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: that I was taught early on in my career was

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Speaker 1: you have to be able to explain the reason why

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Speaker 1: someone has been left to die and decay for this

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Speaker 1: long period of time. How is this person not popping

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Speaker 1: up on the radar? How are people not outscouring the woods?

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Speaker 1: How are people not engaged with actively trying to find

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Speaker 1: this person? And that is one of the biggest mysteries

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Speaker 1: of all. And I'm just thinking about on the Jink

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Speaker 1: Dope murder I prosecuted and how difficult it was, and

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Speaker 1: that hurt face as I know it through reconstruction, still

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Speaker 1: haunts me. What can you learn from just the bones?

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Speaker 1: Isn't it true Joe Scott that you can tell the

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Speaker 1: sex general theory about the age, ethnicity. For instance, you

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Speaker 1: can tell if the person is a white female, a

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Speaker 1: Hispanic female. I think you can tell if it's an

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Speaker 1: Asian female, a black female. I'm not quite sure how

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Speaker 1: they do that, but I understand that you can. Is

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Speaker 1: it based on the teeth or the pelvic bones? Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: for sex for instance, you can. Actually it's the pelvic

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Speaker 1: girdle that you know. Folks at home will just think

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Speaker 1: about the width of their pelvis itself. And traditionally with women,

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Speaker 1: you know, when we look at the pelvis, the pelvis

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Speaker 1: is wider. It has to accommodate a birth canal in

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Speaker 1: order to facilitate the birth of a child. Men tend

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Speaker 1: to be more narrow. But you know, Nancy, there's something

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Speaker 1: else that was always more striking to me when I

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Speaker 1: looked at a skeleton. You can tell all of those

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Speaker 1: kind of general generalities with the body. But what's really

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Speaker 1: fascinating is actually you can tell about their level of healthcare.

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Speaker 1: You can tell about their age, how much bone wear

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Speaker 1: is there, there are arthritic changes, you know in the joints,

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Is there actually bone loss that

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Speaker 1: you get with osteoporosis many times? How about their teeth.

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Speaker 1: Do you know, Nancy, that we can actually look on

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Speaker 1: the We can actually look at the teeth and determine

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Speaker 1: what side of an individual's mouth they favored while chewing.

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Speaker 1: You know, I tell my students at Jacksonville State that

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Speaker 1: take your tongue running around your teeth, the area where

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Speaker 1: your teeth are actually the least sharp or the more dull,

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Speaker 1: that's your dependent side of chewing. That's the things that

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Speaker 1: we look at. And there's those little passing things. Isn't

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Speaker 1: it that we notice about those in our immediate circle.

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Speaker 1: Somebody might have said at some point in Tom, what

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Speaker 1: side of your mouth do you chew on? Or wow?

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Speaker 1: You always ever asked me that? Ever, that's all right now,

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Speaker 1: And I'd like to point out that I was carefully

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Speaker 1: watching Jackie as you said that, and she absolutely was

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Speaker 1: figuring out which side of the mouth. Okay, you're right side? Cheets? Right?

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Speaker 1: Thank you? Okay, Now, so back what with finding nothing

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Speaker 1: but bones determining cod cause of death much less man

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Speaker 1: or death, It's going to be very difficult there unless

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Speaker 1: you can see a broken bone or a nick on

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Speaker 1: a bone from a knife, or you find a bullet nearby,

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Speaker 1: or you find a bone that has suffered a gunshot wound.

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Speaker 1: Other than that, with Jane Doe totally skeletonized, you're not

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Speaker 1: going to find cod No, you're not. And this is why, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: because commonly in traditional deaths, where we have bodies that

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Speaker 1: are fully intact, we have what is remaining. We refer

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Speaker 1: to it as soft tissue, and you can see things

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Speaker 1: like hemorrhage. You can appreciate gunshot wounds or knife wounds,

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Speaker 1: or maybe some other trauma, blunt force trauma, for instance,

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Speaker 1: with bruising and hemorrhage, you can even age those injuries,

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Speaker 1: but not with a skeleton. You know. One of the

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Speaker 1: biggest things that we look for, for instance, are the skulls.

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Speaker 1: If you're fortunate enough to find a skull, many times

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Speaker 1: you just find bones just lying about. But if you

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Speaker 1: do have a skull, you can look for things we

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Speaker 1: call holes in skulls defects. So you're looking at, for instance,

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Speaker 1: an entrance wound for a gunshot wound, or maybe an

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Speaker 1: exit wound. You're looking for a depressed skull fracture, or

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Speaker 1: maybe the face has been pounded in. You'll see those

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Speaker 1: fine facial bones that have been fractured. Those types of

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Speaker 1: things are indicators. And of course, like you mentioned, if

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Speaker 1: you're fortunate enough to find like a rib bone, maybe

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Speaker 1: a knife has passed through and you can look for

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Speaker 1: a tool mark on that, a scratch, a nick, or

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Speaker 1: maybe even a group or in the case of where

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Speaker 1: you have a dismemberment, you can actually find dismemberment marks

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Speaker 1: left behind by saws and those sorts of things. I'm

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Speaker 1: just thinking about the emotional tool it has taken on

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Speaker 1: this woman's family. For all I know she had children.

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Speaker 1: And of course you can tell a lot about the

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Speaker 1: person by the length of their leg bones or their armbones.

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Speaker 1: When you try to extract DNA, how long can you

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Speaker 1: get DNA let's just say from teeth or I mean,

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Speaker 1: when you think about it, there's not always teeth in

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Speaker 1: a skull or from a bone, right, let's just say

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Speaker 1: your leg bone or your hip bone. How long can

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Speaker 1: you still get DNA from your bones? I'm glad you

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Speaker 1: brought this up. This is the fabulous word picture I

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Speaker 1: came up with to help my students at Jacksonville State

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Speaker 1: think of. Think of a longbone, like a leg bone,

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Speaker 1: which is where we would generally harvest, say, for instance,

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Speaker 1: mtochondrial DNA out of the bone if it's still viable.

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Speaker 1: Think of that bone as a leather briefcase, all right,

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Speaker 1: And a leather briefcases seem kind of sturdy, don't they.

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Speaker 1: It's going to contain that information for a while, but

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Speaker 1: leather in and of itself will wear down after a while.

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Speaker 1: But if we think about the teeth, Nancy, we think

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Speaker 1: about the teeth, think about the teeth as a titanium briefcase.

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Speaker 1: It holds onto things longer and better because teeth are

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Speaker 1: in fact not bone, they are something else. They are

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Speaker 1: this really strong composite. And so if we can get

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Speaker 1: into the tooth, if we can get to the pulp,

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Speaker 1: we can extract DNA from there. But again, like you said,

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Speaker 1: with skulls laying on the out in the woods, many

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Speaker 1: times to get knocked around by animals or just over

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Speaker 1: a period of time, teeth fall out of those sockets.

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Speaker 1: You have to be very careful of the scene. If

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Speaker 1: you can in fact recover to sometimes that can be

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Speaker 1: a DNA gold mine. Wow, DNA can even be extracted

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Speaker 1: from ancient bones and teeth specimens. It's very very difficult process.

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Speaker 1: The extraction of DNA but there's so much more to

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Speaker 1: identifying someone and just trying to get DNA. And I'm

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Speaker 1: not really sure how many bones were found in Jane.

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Speaker 1: Now I know there's a skull, what does it tell you?

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott tells me a lot that her skull was

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Speaker 1: found in the woods, but easily, easily you know, identifiable.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't buried, it was right there on the surface.

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Speaker 1: That tells me a lot about the killer. Unless it's

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Speaker 1: there because of animal activity. Yeah, it could be as

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Speaker 1: a result of animal activity, if there are no surrounding bones.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you this, Dogs in particular love skulls. I've found.

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Speaker 1: I've had countless cases, Nancy, where dogs will literally walk

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Speaker 1: up into just some citizens yard with a skull. Can

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Speaker 1: you imagine how horrifying that is? And I'll have terrified

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Speaker 1: people that used to call it the medical examiner at

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Speaker 1: the coroner's office and say, oh my god, we've got

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Speaker 1: a we've got a skull here, you know, and you

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Speaker 1: go out there and dogs, you know, dogs are simple creatures.

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Speaker 1: They it's like playing with the ball. They see this

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Speaker 1: kind of spherical logic. They like to play with it,

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Speaker 1: carry around and so but let me tell you something else, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of sinister about this. And I actually work

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Speaker 1: as series of serial killings that were kind of go

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Speaker 1: to this point. In this particular case, we had a

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Speaker 1: guy that would never bury bodies. He loved though, to

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Speaker 1: pose bodies. He loved to have them exposed and take

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Speaker 1: these women and just kind of lay them out. And

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Speaker 1: so they're not necessarily going to the trouble taking the

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Speaker 1: time to dig the hole because they want people to

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Speaker 1: be shocked by finding these remains. Now, that does tell

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Speaker 1: us a lot. It can also say if you find

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Speaker 1: a body just on the surface, for instance, that they

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Speaker 1: were rushed, they wanted to just dump the body and

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Speaker 1: get as much distance between them and the deceased. Or

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Speaker 1: in certain cases you'll have people that maybe you are

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Speaker 1: injured and they just kind of, you know, sadly, just

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Speaker 1: walk off into a desolate area and fall down in

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Speaker 1: one location and they succumb at that point in time.

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Speaker 1: So you have to you have to weigh off. I

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Speaker 1: don't think Jane, they wandered out into the woods and

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Speaker 1: had a heart attack. If that's where you're going, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm not. However, as you know, and we've covered so

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Speaker 1: many cases together, there are those times when people are injured,

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Speaker 1: maybe they've escaped, maybe they've escaped a killer and they

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Speaker 1: were so horribly injured, disoriented, or maybe they died as

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Speaker 1: a result of the elements after they had been abandoned

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Speaker 1: by somebody they escaped. They just tried to get to

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Speaker 1: a point to be saved, and it just so happens

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Speaker 1: the next person that finds them is some hunter walking

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Speaker 1: through the woods that might just see a skeleton laying

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Speaker 1: on the ground. It's a very sad circumstance. I just

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Speaker 1: hate it for this family out there somewhere that never

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Speaker 1: knew what happened to their daughter. Guys, we are talking

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Speaker 1: about a so called Jane Doe. Don't miss it. The

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Speaker 1: Jane Doe Murders, a Brandy special premiering on Sunday, January third,

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Speaker 1: seven pm Eastern and Pacific only on Oxygen, My TV home,

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Speaker 1: the true network for crime. Joscade. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: breaking it down putting it back together for us. Thank

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Speaker 1: you Oxygen and the Jane Doe Murders for being our

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Speaker 1: partners here, Eh Crime Stories. I'll see a Sunday night,

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Speaker 1: seven o'clock Eastern. Goodbye, friend,