1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The Girlfriends 18 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get 19 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Hi, I'm free and I'm rthy. We have 20 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: spent the last twenty years building and working at some 21 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: of the largest companies in the world. We worked with 22 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: some remarkable people. Rob mcalinney. When I see the people 23 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: of Wrexham, I grew up exactly like them. Check Out 24 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: the Arth and Tree Arm show. That is a R 25 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: D HI and s R I R A M show. 26 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: Listen to the Art Instrie Arm Show on the iHeart 27 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 28 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: This is the story of a man who's fascinated me. 29 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 1: His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and that's a name 30 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: you don't forget. He was a visionary who built a 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: fortune as a black man during Jim Crow during the Depression, 32 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: but today not many people know about him. The race 33 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: sort of wiped out, and I wonder if this was 34 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: done intentionally. Listen to Sweet Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, 35 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. To me, 36 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: it maybe had something to do with that one little girl. 37 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: But to me, there's a bigger read. You can't tell 38 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: me that day won't be in and heeled eight people 39 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: over one child. It's just so bizarre that there's so 40 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: many twists and turns. It's mind boggling, and it's like 41 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: a powerful trying to put the pieces together. It's just 42 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: got so many tentacles and goes in so many different directions. 43 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: Nobody has said anything other than he was shy and 44 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: in love with Hannah Rode, literally in love, like something 45 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: is off. This is the Pike of Massacre, returned to 46 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: Pike County season three episode hen House on a Hill. 47 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios with 48 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane. In researching this story, we 49 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: sometimes find ourselves mired in details that lead to dead ends. 50 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: In this episode, before George Wagner the fourth Trial, we're 51 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: stepping back to take an eagle eye view on the 52 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: dark power dynamics at play in southern Ohio. We have 53 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 1: uncovered some shocking new theories about what might have led 54 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: to the grizzly murders of the eight members of the 55 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: Rodent family. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. After following the story 56 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: for years, you really start to see that there are 57 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: sort of two piked In's in one piked In. There 58 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: are people simply trying to live, work and put food 59 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: on the table for their family. And on the other hands, 60 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: there's a lot of people in power who are misusing it, 61 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: and quite a few of these individuals have used their 62 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: power for personal gain period, often with brutal consequences for 63 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: those who get caught in the crossfire. No one exemplifies 64 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: this more than Michael Moran, who we know is a 65 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: local Portsmouth lawyer who was accused of doing all sorts 66 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: of heinous things. As we've discussed in previous episodes, Michael 67 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: Moran preyed upon vulnerable female clients, often prostitutes and drug users. 68 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: He lured them in with inexpensive legal representation than trapped 69 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: him into sexual slavery and worse. His victims were people 70 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: like Megan Lancaster, who went missing in twenty thirteen. Angie 71 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: Montgomery knew her and her sister in law, Katie, who 72 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: spent years trying to find Megan. Here's Angie the way 73 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: Katie described Megan to me. She looked at me and 74 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: she was like, I knew she would find a way 75 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: to get a hold of somebody. I knew she would. 76 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: That's what I always you know, it was in the 77 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 1: back of her mind. I knew she would find a 78 00:04:54,920 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: way to save something to somebody during her tireless crusade 79 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: to find out what happened to Megan. Katie Lancaster also 80 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: fell victim to the pressures of life in Pike County. 81 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to be honest with you, she was easing. 82 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: I didn't know it. Hern her husband went through hell 83 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: right before she died. And she also told me that 84 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: the court told her to stop with her Megan's campaign. 85 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: She was found in an area in Portsmouth it's known 86 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,799 Speaker 1: for drug daily and she was found in a house 87 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: having apparently overdosed. Right, that's the same area that Moran's 88 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: office was in her right, Right, that's the road. Here's 89 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: Jeff speaking with Sophie, an acquaintance of the Wagner family. 90 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: We spoke with her in an earlier episode, but as 91 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: a reminder, she's the one who alerted us to ties 92 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: between Michael Moran and Angela Wagner's father, Pug Carter. It's 93 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: not a surprise to me that her dad had him 94 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: as a lawyer. That was news to me. How did 95 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: you find that out? You'd probably send you the link 96 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: to it. We talked about Michael Moran on the podcast, 97 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: but kind of as an outlier. It just spoke to 98 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: crimes that were happening in the community. But this really 99 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: connects Michael Moran to the Wagner family. Yes, and Auntie 100 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: was always really close with her dad. From what I 101 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: remember is that there was like an undercover seeing where 102 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: the police were going to his house and purchasing and 103 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,239 Speaker 1: selling drugs. So actual drug bust is how he got caught. 104 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: Another local sleuth who goes by j J, confirms the story. 105 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 1: Everybody there in that little town of South Webster knew 106 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: what he was doing. I mean, he was their supplier. 107 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: Is it just mainly pot? Now we're talking about her 108 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: part drugs like heroin and cocaine, oxtic CoDown. He even 109 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: did time prison for his drug dealings. He was a 110 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: want to be gangster, if you will. So that's what 111 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: she grew up in. That's what she was familiar with. 112 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: Billy Wagner's aunts lived across the street from the cars. 113 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: That's how they had to have met. For a defense 114 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: lawyer like Michael Moran, Pug Carter was probably a legitimate 115 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: source of study income, but he also recognized another possible 116 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: stream of cash from his less well off female clients. 117 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: Michael Moran exploited the power dynamic ruthlessly, often abusing the 118 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: women he lured in and calling them the product he 119 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: turned around and sold their services right back to the 120 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: most powerful and Pike County. It's rumored that some of 121 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: this took place in a house on a hill just 122 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: south of Piketon. Here's Stephanie speaking with Angie Montgomery. This 123 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: is just, you know, frankly rumor in speculation that there's 124 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: a place that was this house slash bar, and officials, 125 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: people that worked for the local police would go there 126 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: for drinks, and sometimes there would be girls there and 127 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: maybe not such great behavior would happen behind closed doors. Yes, 128 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: and if you give me two seconds, I'll give you 129 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: the name in the place. It's on top of Big 130 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: Beer Lake. Is it's just like a it's like a resort. 131 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: I was told that there was some sort of a 132 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: security PINpad that you could go into that club at anytime. 133 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: I shouldn't call it a club like a bar anytime 134 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: if you had a key. Yes, it's like you just 135 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: take this place and just drop it in the middle 136 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: and at lands on top of this mountain, because you 137 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 1: have to have four rollers to get up to it. Actually, 138 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: I dated a police officer years ago. I remember me 139 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: and whom we're driving down one or four and we 140 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: drove past Big Beer Lake. I remember whom telling me 141 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: that's where all the cops go to get chicks and 142 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: do illegal stuff. And this was in like nineteen ninety nine. 143 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: He told me this, and I thought he was blown 144 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: smoke up my ass, but apparently he wasn't. So you 145 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: can actually go up to it now and walk through it. 146 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: There's rooms like you got the restaurant in the bar, 147 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: then you've got your little rooms, kind of like a hotel. Frasier's. 148 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 1: It's called Frasier's Chateau Club. Got it just my phone 149 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,959 Speaker 1: and it's got the address. Wow. We took the address 150 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: and just put it into Google Maps, and the chateau 151 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: seems to be located just south of Pikes In kind 152 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: of on the way to Portsmith. It's way up on 153 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: the top of this mountain looking over Lake Frasier, which 154 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: is actually sometimes referred to as Big Bear Lake, but 155 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: the technical name is Lake Frasier, hence the name Frasier's Chateau. 156 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: We heard a lot about in the early days that 157 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: you know, the rodents would go to Big Bear Lake 158 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: in the summertime to go off road and tubing, and 159 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: it was just a place to go as a family 160 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: for fun. But when you look at this photo, you 161 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: see at the very very top there's almost this fancy 162 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: place kind of looking over the whole thing and stuff. 163 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: Which I find interesting is if you look at this 164 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: map which we'll post on our Instagram at kat Underscore Studios, 165 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: there's almost this like back road that goes up to 166 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: it that almost looks like a place where you could 167 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: drive a four wheeler, which does remind me of how 168 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: Angie described this place. It makes you wonder what was 169 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: going up and down this road, like who was transporting 170 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: what to the chateau from town. We found out that 171 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: it was for sale in two thousand and one and 172 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: it was owned by a man named Richard Fraser Jr. 173 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: He then passed it on to Richard Fraser the third 174 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: in the early nineties. We were also able to track 175 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: down some videos of the chateau and its heyday. What 176 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: you see are people enjoying the better things of life. 177 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: There drinks, they're watching the Kentucky Derby. We were only 178 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: going to win about a million dollars. The audio is 179 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: a little hard to decipher. But what you just heard 180 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: was one man saying, bring it on home to daddy, 181 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: followed by another saying we were only going to win 182 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: about a million dollars. Men are wearing tuxedos and they're 183 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: gambling and drinking champagne. You know, it looks like one 184 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: of those very fancy, upscale country clubs you would see 185 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: in the movies. Everybody is living their best possible life. 186 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: Makes you wonder what was happening up at the chateau. 187 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: What's being alleged is that this chateau sort of serves 188 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: as the center of yet another backstory in the massacre 189 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: that could be connected. And again we're kind of learning 190 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: about this real time also. But it's interesting when things 191 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: that were considered rumor in previous seasons and we couldn't 192 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: talk about it really now we're all shaping up to 193 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: be a matter of fact, and the more people we 194 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: speak to, the connective tissue becomes clearer and clearer. We 195 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: were also able to uncover that Moran represented the owners 196 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: of the chateau in a court case where they had 197 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: an issue with a bank loan, So there's now no 198 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: doubt that Michael Moran was tied to Frasier Chateau in 199 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: some capacity. It just ties together all of these players 200 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: that we've been talking about, Michael Moran, Frasier Chateau, the cops, 201 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,959 Speaker 1: the Wagners, the Rodents. They're all in the same world 202 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: in ways that we never imagined. We've also found road 203 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: in connections to the chateau. We've been told that Chris 204 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: Senior might have been doing construction there, and it's confirmed 205 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: that Frankie and Chris Junior worked there because they listed 206 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: as their place of employment on Facebook, so there was 207 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: an obvious connec action there for work. And we have 208 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: heard that Chris Senior was also a craftsman and who 209 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: used to do construction on a lot of patios in 210 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: and around the area, and it's been speculated that perhaps 211 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: he overheard something or saw some sort of nefarious behavior 212 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: at the chateau and that people were afraid he was 213 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: going to snitch, and maybe that's a factor into the massacre. 214 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: But again we do know it's definitely playing a role, 215 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: and quickly these dots are getting connected. Worth noting, though, 216 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: that none of our research would suggest that any of 217 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: the Rodents were connected to anything nefarious at Big Bear Lake. 218 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: We called and confirmed with Big bear Lake workers that 219 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: the chateau is now closed. We've learned that Big Bear 220 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: Lake bought over three hundred acres of land fifteen years ago, 221 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: which included the chateau. The current owners have nothing to 222 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: do with the sha toe. According to the person we 223 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: spoke with who has worked at Big Bear Lake for 224 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: fifteen years, thieves who rode around on ATVs would come 225 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: in and have completely destroyed what was left of the property. 226 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: This same worker knew the Rodents and confirmed the work 227 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: they did there. The whole thing is now boarded up, 228 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: and Big Bear Lake's current owner actually plans on bulldozing 229 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: the whole building in a few weeks. The Rodent men 230 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: all working at Big bear Lake just speaks to what 231 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: we've heard about them before, which is that they're all 232 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: really hard workers and good with their hands. Before the murders, 233 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: Chris Roden Senior worked as a carpenter and Dana Roden 234 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: was working full time, sometimes even double time, as a nurse. 235 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: The whole ring of people, the powers that be that 236 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: are not doing what they should be doing, and that's 237 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: why families in Pike County feel like we're forgotten. In 238 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: the early two thousands. Most of the big companies in 239 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: charge of plants and in the area left Pike County, 240 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: and drug abuse was up at the time of the murders. 241 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: The unemployment rate was also up at eight point six 242 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: percent compared to five point one percent nationwide. You know, 243 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: you've got people that are heard working, people that grew marijuana. 244 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: It's so bizarre to people outside, you know, the rural 245 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: communities that don't know the goings on. As reported at 246 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: the time of the murders, the Rodents had two hundred 247 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: marijuana plants with a street value of about half a 248 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: million dollars. I thought the cartel did it. I really did, 249 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: and I've talked to people in the area, he said, 250 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: they swear the cartal did it. Cartel activity in the 251 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: area is documented. In twenty ten, a large marijuana seizure 252 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: just fifteen miles west of piked In was suspected of 253 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: being linked to the Aloa cartel. Two years later, another 254 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: pot buzz yielded solid evidence of a campsite set up 255 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: by the Mexican Nationals. According to a Wagner family insider, 256 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: it's been going on for years and there are rumors 257 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: that the Wagners were wrapped up in it as well. Again, 258 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: these are simply rumors about the Wagners being involved in 259 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: the cartel that we have heard throughout the years. However, 260 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: it seems likely that any potential connections between them were 261 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: also investigated. Maybe they got mixed up with the cartel. Boal, 262 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: I live in Chill Coffee and whenever you get down 263 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: through Waverley, they're a big horse stable, and my whole 264 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: wife and when I ate it was legit cartel lived there. 265 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: My mom and died at several electric drops form and 266 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: they would even tell you that the horses that they 267 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: ship didn't had drugs in them. And that's why I 268 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: said it was so close too. Then she's referring to 269 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: the cartel location being close to Frederica and George Wagner 270 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: Senior's horse farm. George Wagner Senior, which was Billy's father, 271 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: was a drug dealer too, and he would put bags 272 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: of dope in these female horses of vaginas and ship them. 273 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: That's sound he transported as drugs. It was right in 274 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: the back door. You know what about what lived right 275 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: your bio and the horses. It threw me into that name, 276 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: thinking of the horses with Freddie and them with horses, 277 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: that Mexicans shipping the horses. You know, maybe there was 278 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: something mere. I need to point out that we were 279 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: unable to locate any records to support these allegations. Pikedon's 280 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: location suits cartel operations in the Midwest perfectly. There's a 281 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: lot of cartel in that area, and they grow in 282 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: the hills. You know, it's refertile ground, and it's you know, 283 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: it's easy to hide. It's also a known trafficking route 284 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: in southern Ohio. US Route twenty three runs from the 285 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: state line in Portsmouth north through piked In Columbus and 286 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 1: eventually into Michigan. But before nineteen twenty six, Portsmouth was 287 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: the southern terminus of the road. Three years later it 288 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: was expanded, eventually running all the way to the Atlantic 289 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: Ocean in Jacksonville, Florida. Now, the two lane divided expressway 290 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: is outdated. Interstate seventy five gets most of the legitimate 291 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: north south traffic in the area, which makes twenty three 292 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: the preferred route of those trying to keep a low profile. 293 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: Maybe it was some crazy thing like that, because you 294 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: know who else would go in and kill a Holdian family. 295 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: It just seems to need it. It was so personal 296 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: the murders were to me, especially the way Chris or 297 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: was killed, just how many times he was shot, Because 298 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: if you're just doing this to get kustie of a child, 299 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: you're just going to go in shoot the person one time, 300 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: a couple times and then leave, not do what they 301 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: did to him. When I read the autopsy, I mean 302 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: he was shot in his extremity to torso his head. 303 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 1: That's overkilled and to me, that's anger. The autopsies if 304 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: you really look at him, if you really read between 305 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: the lines and where the paragraphs leading up to the redactions, 306 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: if you really look at it and go, oh, okay, 307 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: that's what's redacted. There was marks in the groin area, 308 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: you know, wounds in the groin area. Chris Senior and 309 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: Frankie Rodent, it appears that their janitaria had been removed. 310 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: They were tortured, they were mutilated. There was marks where 311 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,719 Speaker 1: not a typical knife would have been used. There was 312 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: a lot of talk about do you know what a 313 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: jaff is. A jaff is a weapon that's used by 314 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: the cartel. Okay, what's it look like? It has like 315 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: a claw with sharp blades like Edward scissorhand. You think 316 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: the redacted sections of the autopsy point to that type 317 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: of weapon maybe being used. Yes, we're going to take 318 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh. I'm 319 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. 320 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 321 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 322 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 323 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 324 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He chouked into the point she went unconscious. 325 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one 326 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us 327 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to 328 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. 329 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 330 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 331 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 332 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 333 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: The Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 334 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts from iHeart Podcasts. Whitney hell Is 335 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 1: going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted 336 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: a situation like this. I just thought it was just 337 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,479 Speaker 1: a really terrible, immoral thing, a line they won't cross. 338 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 1: I was stunned, and I just said, no, we're killing people. 339 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 1: You may never have to face that decision when you 340 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: find yourself at that line. Thou its ricin, rs ricin, 341 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: and somebody needs to just for once give everybody the 342 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: whole truth. I'm like, this is evil and the only 343 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: person who can sound the alarm is you. I wasn't 344 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: just going to sit silently. Buy from iHeart Podcasts. These 345 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: are the whistleblowers. If you are disloyal, things are going 346 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: to happen to this week out disgrace to our gun. 347 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: Evil play should be prosecuted when power corrupts, conscience is 348 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: the last line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to 349 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 350 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. My name's Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, 351 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: and host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember 352 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: my award winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's 353 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: always time to touch incredible guests about important things. People 354 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: like me have been screaming for years. We've got to 355 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: watch the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong, what 356 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: they're doing is evil. They will take things away. And 357 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: I can only hope that Dobbs is that like Pearl 358 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: Harbor moment, girl, you and I both know what it 359 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: took to just get through the day in New York 360 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: City and get home in one piece. And so the 361 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: fact that we're here and what you've achieved and what 362 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: I've achieved, you know, that's momentous. It's not just sitting 363 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: around complaining about some bills. The only reason that you 364 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: might think, as Chase said, that we're always miserable is 365 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. 366 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: Listen to The Laverne Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, 367 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Be sure 368 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: to subscribe and share. How Rude Tanta Rito's is the 369 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: full House rewatch podcast you've been waiting for. Each week, 370 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: get together with iconic characters Stephanie Tanner and Kimmy Gibbler, 371 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: also known as actresses Jody Sweeten and Andrea Barber, as 372 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: they team up to relive every episode of your favorite 373 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 1: Friday night comfort show. We spent our entire childhoods on 374 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 1: a little show called Full House, playing freenemies but becoming 375 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: besties whenever the cameras weren't rolling, And now, thirty five 376 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: years later, it's our biggest adventure yet. Get ready for 377 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 1: Jody and Andrea to tell all as they take an 378 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: in depth book back at life in and around the 379 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,239 Speaker 1: Tanner Home from the very very beginning. So if you 380 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: think you know everything there is to know about Full House, 381 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 1: How Rude, We'll be reliving every moment with you, and 382 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 1: we'll be joined by our Full House family, including all 383 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: your favorites from one hundred and ninety two episodes. We'll 384 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: reveal the hidden treasures you may have missed within the show, 385 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: and we'll take a trip down memory lane together. Listen 386 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: to How Rude Tanner Ritos on the iHeartRadio Appicable Podcasts, 387 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. The brutality of the 388 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 1: Mexican cartel is widely known. It's possible all the power 389 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: brokers in the orbit of the piked and massacre we're 390 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: dealing with something larger and even more terrifying than what 391 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: they had created themselves. Even Sheriff Reader, who was at 392 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: the time in charge of enforcing the law in his 393 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: dark corner of Ohio, was possibly an over his head. 394 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 1: Here's Jeff talking about the possibilities of what happened the 395 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: night of April twenty first, twenty sixteen. It all comes 396 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: full circle back to Reader. When we initially got involved 397 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: in the case, the theory out there was that it 398 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: was the cartel, and that theory was put out there 399 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: by Reader very early on in the investigation, and is 400 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: what people thought happened for quite some time. I remember 401 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 1: talking with Rodin, Kenny's daughter, and this was maybe a 402 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: week or so after the murders happened, and it was 403 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 1: when Charlie went on TV to do a pressor and 404 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: said that he didn't know the Rodent And I remember 405 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: Kinder looking at me and saying, I don't know why 406 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: he's saying he doesn't know us. He knows who we are. 407 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 1: I knew she just went through hell, and I didn't 408 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: want to say, well, how does he know you or 409 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: whatever you know? But I always kept that in the 410 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: back of my mind, like it upset her that he 411 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: said he didn't know them. Imagine them sitting around the 412 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 1: table eating supper, plotting to kill eight people. It's just 413 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: hard to grasp. Was there a larger and much more 414 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: dangerous element pulling the strings from a distance with threats 415 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: against the Wagner family and others in Piketon. And I'm 416 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: just theorizing, but it's been said to me it's possible 417 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: that Jake is lying because there's death threats in some 418 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: way against them behind bars, which would kind of point 419 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: to a larger issue, whether that's the marijuana operation or 420 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: some fishy dealings, or maybe Billy was in other trouble 421 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: and this was gonna be his way out. I think 422 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: they're involved, but I believe the cartel was involved with them. 423 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: It was too horrendous and happened too fast for everything 424 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,679 Speaker 1: to go down in a time frame that it supposedly 425 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: went down in for having just two people to do it, 426 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. The cartel zoomed in on him, 427 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: and they let it be known that if you don't 428 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: take a plea, we will kill your family, will kill 429 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 1: the rest of your family. You know, they're wielding this 430 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: proverbial sword over their heads because they are involved. I mean, 431 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: out of nowhere, he took a plea. I do not 432 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: think Jake could stand over Hannah and shoot her, especially 433 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: with a baby next to her. Something is off, something 434 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: is not right. It's important to note that George the 435 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: fourth Wagner and his father, there Billy Wagner, have both 436 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty and are presumed innocent. No one except 437 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: for the people who will appear in court next month, 438 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 1: knows the real truth. It seems like there are basically 439 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: three ways this could play out. It's either, as their 440 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: plea deals would suggest, Jake Wagner has confessed to killing five. 441 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: Who are those five? We do not know. That would 442 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: suggest that either Billy or George are responsible for the 443 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: remaining three. Many accounts would suggest that George was not 444 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: a trigger puller, and that seems to be their first 445 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: line of defense. So what we know for a fact 446 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: is that George Wagner's trial is set to start August 447 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: twenty nine. We're going to learn a lot more when 448 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: George's trial actually begins and we learn more about the 449 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: prosecution's case, But for right now, all we can do 450 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: is sort of guess what might happen, and what's being 451 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: reported so far is that Angela Wagner was not present 452 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: at the time time of the murders. Jake Wagner has 453 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: confessed to committing five, and we can sort of surmise 454 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: that because George Wagner think he didn't kill anyone, that 455 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: Billy Wagner must have killed the other three. This theory 456 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: plays well into what the plea deals have said so far, 457 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: but there are still so many other theories to impact. 458 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: Is it possible that there's another layer to this altogether, 459 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: and the Wagners were in fact tied into something nefarious, 460 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: whether that's the cartel or not, and there was this 461 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: potential of a custody battle to heat up. And on 462 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: top of that, there does seem to be corruption behind 463 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: the scenes. We know that. So at this point there's 464 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: been so many pieces of the puzzle held closed by 465 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: the prosecution in the defense for obvious reasons. They want 466 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: to keep their case sacred. But that's about to change 467 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:04,239 Speaker 1: once George's trials start. It shapes everything because you'd have 468 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: to imagine that Billy Wagner's trial is just behind it 469 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: and their stories all better match, or is there an 470 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: entirely new story that's evolving real time. We're likely going 471 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: to pause just for a stretch so we can have 472 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: jurious selection happen and really be with you when things 473 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: start to heat up. I think there's a curveball coming. 474 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: Whether or not Angela Wagner was present at any or 475 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: all of the Road family houses on the night of 476 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: the murders has been a huge point of contention. Added 477 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: confusion is that we've read conflicting reports based on what 478 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: was reported on and what we've seen in court. What 479 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: we've understood and have reported on this podcast that Angela 480 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: was at home babysitting of the murderers. However, in looking 481 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: back one more time through court transcripts, we found conflicting 482 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: reports that said Angela had moved two of the bodies. 483 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: To shed some light on this, we spoke to Fox 484 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: nineteen legal analyst Mike Allen. She pled to conspiracy to 485 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: commit aggravated murder, which indicates to me that she was 486 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: not there and didn't participate in it. Also several counts 487 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: of aggravated burglary. Now that's trespassing in an occupied structure 488 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: or a structure that could be occupied. But the real 489 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: thing here is tampering with evidence. I checked with Mike Shell, 490 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: he's a reporter here at Fox nineteen. He's been following 491 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: this thing closer than anyone. I said, is there any 492 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: indication that Angela did participate in the homicide? And he 493 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: said no. His understanding was that she was at home 494 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: with a baby or baby. So I think the gist 495 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: of what she pled to is that she was not 496 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: there when it happened, but conspired before the fact. I 497 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: don't know why they're so close mouth about this, but 498 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: that would be my speculation. You mentioned the dumping tight lips. 499 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: Is that standard or not standard? What do you make 500 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: of the prosecution not releasing a lot of information. You know, 501 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: they want to keep a lid on it because it's 502 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: just got so many tentacles and goes in so many 503 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: different directions, and I think they're probably inundated with media request. 504 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: But I will say this, it's highly unusual. As a 505 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: matter of fact, I don't ever remember a trial that 506 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: I've been involved with, or that I've even heard of 507 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: here in Hamilton County where that's happened. I mean, the 508 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: every document that's filed in the Clerk of Courts office 509 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: is put online unless that orders it's sealed and judge 510 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: is here, and don't routinely do that unless there's a 511 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: legitimate law enforcement reason to do it. So that's got 512 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: me baff all. I tell you, I'm sure would make 513 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: everybody job easier. Let's stop here for another break. Oh. 514 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The 515 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, 516 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 517 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 518 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 519 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He choked into the point miss she 520 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes 521 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 522 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back on him. To 523 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: pay for his crime, he needed to be put to justice. 524 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 525 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 526 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 527 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 528 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: the girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 529 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts from iHeart Podcasts. Whitney hell 530 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: is going on here? Everyone has their limits. I'd never 531 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: confronted a situation like this. I just thought it was 532 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: just a really terrible, immoral thing, a line they won't cross. 533 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,280 Speaker 1: I was stunned, and I just said, no, we're killing people. 534 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: You may never have to face that decision when you 535 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: find yourself at that lineouts ricin aren't ricin. And somebody 536 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: needs to just for once give everybody the whole truth. 537 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: Probably this is evil, and the only person who can 538 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just going to 539 00:34:54,960 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: sit silently. Buy from iHeart Podcasts. These are the whisp Blowers. 540 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: If you are disloyal thinks are going to happen to 541 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: speak out disgrace to our gun, evil, be prosecute when 542 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: power corrupts, conscience is the last line of defense. I'm 543 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 1: Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, 544 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:26,399 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's 545 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of 546 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,760 Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my award winning 547 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always time to 548 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 1: touch incredible guests about important things. People like me have 549 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: been screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court. 550 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: What they're doing is wrong. What they're doing as evil. 551 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: They will take things away. And I can only hope 552 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: that Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment or you 553 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: and I both know what it took to just get 554 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: through the day in New York City and get home 555 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: in one piece. And so the fact that we're here 556 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, 557 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. 558 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, 559 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking 560 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to the Laverne 561 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 1: Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 562 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share. 563 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,320 Speaker 1: She's a Hollywood Western She's Jack Kerouac, but in a 564 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: nap dress with braids. She is one of the most 565 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 1: important American children's authors of the twentieth century. She's the 566 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 1: basis for a television show still watched around the world. 567 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: Somebody somewhere is watching a little les than the room 568 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: She's been called a hero, a racist, a feminist, and 569 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: a propagandist. I think the harm is too great because 570 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: it's just one more thing that Native children have to endure. 571 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: She is Laura Ingles Wilder, author of the book series 572 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,720 Speaker 1: Little House on the Prairie. As a kid, I idolized Laura, 573 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: and last summer I went on the road in search 574 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: of the real Laura. We're literally on the prairie. What 575 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: I found was a complicated person alongside the complicated country 576 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: she represents. I'm Glennis McNicol and this is Wilder. Listen 577 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: to Wilder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever 578 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Just when we think we know 579 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: everything about this case and things are wrapping up, we 580 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: find something else out and more information comes out, and 581 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: it's clear that with the Rodin and the Wagner case, 582 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: that's really expect the unexpected. Ultimately, though, eight members of 583 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: the Rodin, Manly and Gilly family were killed in their homes, 584 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: and I think I speak for the entire team here 585 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 1: at Katsy Studios, but getting to the bottom of what 586 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: happened is really in the name of finding justice for 587 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: the family. We hope to honor not only the victims, 588 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: but also the lives and the people that they left behind. 589 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: In speaking with their family members, loved ones, and friends, 590 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 1: it's really hard to move on without knowing exactly what 591 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: happened that night. And with the trials finally coming up, 592 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: the hope is that we can at least give some 593 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: sort of end to this horrible chapter of their lives. 594 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: While we wait for jury selection and the trial of 595 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 1: George the Fourth to begin, we will continue to follow leads. 596 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 1: We are humbled beyond measure with what the community of 597 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 1: Pike County and family members have shared with us. For now, 598 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,439 Speaker 1: we leave you with a message we've recently received from 599 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: one of the surviving road and family members. Just know 600 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: that my family, they were good people, loving and kind, 601 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 1: very protective, would help anyone in need. I believe in loyalty, 602 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: hard work, and honesty. If you did not honor these, 603 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: then you were not anyone. Family, the Bible and God. 604 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: That's what they live for. Next week's episode will be 605 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 1: the final episode of this current season. It's one we 606 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: recorded live in front of an audience at Crime Con 607 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: in Las Vegas, Nevada. After that will pause before the 608 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: Wagner Trials heat Up. If you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre, 609 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: listen to our other hit series Crazy and Love. New 610 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: episodes there every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. For 611 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: more information and case photos, follow us on Instagram at 612 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Massacres produced by Stephanie Lydecker, 613 00:39:55,239 --> 00:40:00,800 Speaker 1: Jeff Shane, Chris Greeves, Scott de Graw and me Wertney Armstrong. 614 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ti Music by Jared Aston, 615 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 1: audio mixing by Ken Novak. The Pikes and Massacre is 616 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts 617 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:18,360 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 618 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Carol Fisher and 619 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The girl Friends. It's Las Vegas, 620 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 621 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 622 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,440 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelor's one of them one of the 623 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 1: spot there in bout On paper, he was perfect, but 624 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 1: in reality, this guy's a wacko. He choked into the 625 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: point she went unconscious. I would call him and I 626 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. You can 627 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: listen to the girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 628 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Free 629 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: and I'm rthy. We have spent the last twenty years 630 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 1: building and working at some of the largest companies in 631 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: the world. We worked with some remarkable people, Rob mclenny. 632 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: When I see the people of Wrexham, I grew up 633 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 1: exactly like them. Check out the Arth and Tree Arm Show. 634 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: That is a R D HI and s R I 635 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 1: R A M show. Listen to the Art Instree Arm 636 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: Show on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever 637 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 1: you get your podcast This is the story of a 638 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,879 Speaker 1: man who's fascinated me. His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, 639 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,239 Speaker 1: and that's a name you don't forget. He was a 640 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 1: visionary who built a fortune as a black man during 641 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: Jim Crow during the Depression, but today not many people 642 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: know about him. The race sort of wiped out, and 643 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,240 Speaker 1: I wonder if this was done intentionally. Listen to Sweet 644 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever 645 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. I'm will daily. For years have 646 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 1: been on the road playing shows and seeing America through 647 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 1: live music. This summer, I'll hit the stage who Season 648 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: two of Sound of Our Town ten cities, twelve episodes 649 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: every other Thursday, we explore the live music, venues and 650 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,280 Speaker 1: culture of a new American city. With each new episode, 651 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,759 Speaker 1: our tour continues into the kind of venues you want 652 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: to get to when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver, 653 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,840 Speaker 1: or Seattle. Listen to Sound of Our Town on the 654 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,319 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.