1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Ye, 2 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as 3 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,919 Speaker 1: always so much for tuning in. It is still the 4 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: spooky season here over Ridiculous History, and uh, we're all 5 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: big fans of it, but there are other holidays looming 6 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: on the horizon as well, and we're gonna do what 7 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: Corporate America calls getting in front of it. In today's episode, 8 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: I'm Ben. That's our super producer, the one and only 9 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: Max Williams, And uh know, all your backgrounds changed today. 10 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: It looks like someone's in the office. Yeah, can you 11 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: hear that cool drilling? It does like I'm at the dentist. 12 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: I was leaving it in. This is just the real 13 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: life of a podcaster. And it's funny because things like 14 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: that don't happen when you're at home. When you go 15 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: into the office, all of a sudden, there's like they're 16 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: tearing down walls in the office next door, and and 17 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: you know, do they care about are putting out quality content? 18 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: I think not, but hopefully it'll just be intermittent. But yeah, 19 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: I do have a different background. It's sort of a foamy, soft, 20 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: corrugated kind of background, because I am, in fact, in 21 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: one of our studios at at our office here in Atlanta. Ben, 22 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: you mentioned the spooky season, and you're and I see 23 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: what you're doing here. You're segueing into looming holidays. I 24 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: would argue that Thanksgiving and even spookier than Halloween, because 25 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: the turkey is an abomination, my friend. That is a 26 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: terrifying creature, and I would not want one to come 27 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: at me. You know how I feel about birds, but 28 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: turkeys in particular, their talents, and they're weird, fanned out, 29 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: feathered things, and that that that horrifying wattle, gobbler, whatever 30 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: you call it. It just looks like it's the stuff 31 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: of nightmares, my friend, the stuff of nightmares. Turkeys are 32 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: tough to cook, too. You can always reach out to 33 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: me with advice, because I've made those mistakes before. When 34 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: I initially pitched this episode to you guys off air 35 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: as something we could do this week, I think my 36 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: my logic, which was a bit of a reach, was 37 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: that yes, Halloween is spooky, but for many people in 38 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: the US and you know, in other countries with their 39 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: versions of Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving dinner with your extended family is 40 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: just as much of a horror show or has the 41 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 1: potential to be so. Luckily, we thought this was solid enough, 42 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: and we we learned something with the help of our 43 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: pal Gabe, very interesting about Thanksgiving. Uh it's something that 44 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: I don't know about, you know, I was not aware 45 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: of until we started researching this. For years, for decades, dude, 46 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving was considered a very controversial holiday, not for not 47 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: for the reasons that people talk about it now, but 48 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: because people in the South thought it was a Yankee 49 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: abolitionist celebration, which what, Yeah, it's just literally was a 50 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 1: cultural thing because I mean a lot of the foods 51 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: that were a big part of it that we still 52 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: think of today, like pumpkin pie and uh, what was 53 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: really big in the early days of Thanksgiving, chicken pot pie. 54 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: I think it was a Southern thing, but I think 55 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: it also has roots in, like, you know, the North 56 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: as well. They really call it something different, but I 57 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: think there was a sense that this was a way 58 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: of trying to force Northern ideals and cultural kind of 59 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: touchstones onto the South, and they didn't want to have 60 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: anything to do with that. They were still feeling pretty 61 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: raw about that old Civil War thing. Yeah, yeah, this 62 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: was back when the moneyed Southerners probably still referred to 63 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: it as the recent unpleasantness. Right. There was this campaign 64 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds to make Thanksgiving a permanent holiday, 65 00:03:55,880 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: and oddly enough it was seen as a move in 66 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: a culture war by people in the South, kind of 67 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: the way that you'll hear some folks every year talk 68 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: about a war on Christmas. Southerners for a time thought 69 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving was a war on them. And of course the 70 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: first account of Thanksgiving is way older than the Civil War. 71 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: There's a letter written about a pilgrim's meal in sixteen 72 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: twenty one. This was we talked about the evolution of 73 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: Halloween a bit in um our episode on Haunted Houses. 74 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: This holiday also evolved from like a supper that you 75 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: would have traditionally during the harvest season to this Puritan 76 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: day of thanks to God in colonial New England. And 77 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: then I think as you go through the seventeen hundreds, 78 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: we see that it evolves increasingly into a holiday that 79 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: is like the Thanksgiving table is to Thanksgiving as the 80 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: Christmas tree is to Christmas. Yeah, and it's certainly been 81 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: gussied up over the years and and into you know, 82 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: more of a symbol um of togetherness and family, and 83 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: less even like a cultural remembrance or a nod, or 84 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: even like a tacent thank you to the Native Americans who, 85 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: you know, whose land we you know, kind of stole 86 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: or whatever. I think the original Thanksgiving dinner, actually the 87 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 1: main course was just exclusively plague blankets, if I'm not mistaken. 88 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: It's interesting to mention that because the idea of the 89 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: smallpox blanket is it's it's often bandied about here, but 90 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: I read somewhere that there were serious questions about whether 91 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: it actually worked. I'm thinking specifically of an early American 92 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: historian named Elizabeth fenn Over at University of Colorado, Boulder. 93 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: But your point stands, regardless of the smallpox blankets or 94 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: their efficacy. Uh, the colonists were not very appreciative of 95 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: all that the Native people's had done in a very 96 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: real way to keep them alive in those early days. Uh. 97 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: And yes, Europeans did take the land, It's true. Um, 98 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: But you know, Thanksgiving has endured. Uh. And I think, 99 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: you know, sort of morphed into to something a little 100 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: bit different. But it is kind of one excuse for families, 101 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: hopefully typically ones that like each other to get together, 102 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: gather at the table and and um, you know, have 103 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: a day of rest and and a day to give 104 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: thanks for you know, all that life has to offer. Um. 105 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: But before we talk about, you know, what Thanksgiving has 106 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: become today, how maybe the sort of you know, North 107 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: South divide was maybe cooled off a little bit. Let's 108 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: just talk about the first American Thanksgiving, what it actually 109 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: might have been like, and then how it became, you know, 110 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: sort of a national tradition, even if it wasn't like mandatory. Yeah, yeah, 111 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: Like we said, there was this letter about the Pilgrim's 112 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: Meal in sixteen twenty one, and over the seventeen hundreds 113 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: it became again a holiday, increasingly centered on the idea 114 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: of breaking bread with people. As New England became more 115 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: and more populated by colonists, people who lived there started 116 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: lighting out west right, as Mark Twain would say, and 117 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: they took all their cultural traditions with them, including this 118 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving thing that they did every year of first in 119 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: New York State and then in the Michigan territories, and 120 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: then in what would become Ohio. People who were expanding 121 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: into this uh, into this land, into these regions decided 122 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: they would take that harvest feast with them. I do 123 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: want to point out, just to be very clear, Professor Fenn, 124 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: who I quoted earlier about the smallpox blankets, she's not 125 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: saying that people didn't try to do it. It's documented 126 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: Europeans did try to do it. Her question is whether 127 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: it actually worked, which is transmissible in that way, like 128 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: given the age of the infection and so on. But 129 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: of course there were other ways, other much more direct 130 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: ways that call eists. We're spreading disease two native populations. 131 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving as a concept as like a national Hey, you're 132 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: in the US, do this. It's been around since the 133 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: days of the Continental Congress when they started issuing these directions, 134 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: uh to celebrate multiple days of thanks in honor of 135 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,679 Speaker 1: various military victories. And I think it was seventy nine 136 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: George Washington called for a all around the nation day 137 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: of thanks The war's over, we've got a constitution, now 138 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: go team yeah and all the other A lot of 139 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: the other Founding fathers got in on that too, making 140 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: their own proclamations, which I'm a little confused by this 141 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: sort of like, oh, you can think you can make 142 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: a proclamation. Mr George Washington. Well, John Adams is going 143 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: to make my own proclamation, and I James Madison will 144 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: do the same. Just seems a little redundant. Thomas Jefferson, 145 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: on the other hand, felt that there were religious connotations 146 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: that surrounded the event, and he was a big proponent 147 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: of separation of church and state. So um, he did 148 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: not make any formal declarations about this day of thanks 149 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: until eighteen fifteen. He's almost like he was boycotting a 150 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: little bit because of the idea of thanks I only 151 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: can assume revolves around faith in some way in his mind. 152 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, I've always thought of Thanksgiving as a 153 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: pretty secular holiday, uh, more of like a history kind 154 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: of honoring, a you know, this kind of bruise colored 155 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: history thing that maybe never happened the way we think. 156 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: But now I'm interested to I would be interested in 157 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: his thought process as to what made it feel like 158 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,839 Speaker 1: it had religious connotations. Maybe the way of prayer or 159 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, I mean, we keep in mind, 160 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: this is the guy who literally rewrote the Bible and 161 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: took out all this stuff that might be seen as 162 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: supernatural in his opinion. We know that in the eighteen 163 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: forties Thanksgiving is uh big to do across the Northeast 164 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: and through the Midwest, But it wasn't like it wasn't 165 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: quite as uniform or homogeneous as it is today. By 166 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: this point, the like the returning champs of your stereotypical 167 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving Day menu had already been established. Uh roasted turkey, 168 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:28,719 Speaker 1: cranberry sauce, potatoes, stuffing, pumpkin pies, et cetera. But as 169 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: you pointed out earlier, No, for some reason, chicken pot 170 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 1: pie disappeared, which is a shame because chicken pot pie 171 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: is delicious, especially if you make it from scratch. Oh guy, 172 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: it's incredible. And I'll tell you a bit of a 173 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: sleeper hit. Um, if you're looking for some decent quality 174 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: fast food, I highly recommend the KFC chicken pot Pie. 175 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: Very flaky crusts, nice creamy filling, good real chicken. Um. 176 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: I'm not getting paid for this. I just I'm a 177 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: big fan of the KFC chicken pot pie. But yeah, 178 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: it's weird, Like they just called the chicken pie, so 179 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: I'm assuming it would follow the tradition of like a 180 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: mince pie or like, you know, just more British pies 181 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: where it's just a flaky crust with filling. And I'm 182 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: sure maybe isn't exactly what we know today is chicken 183 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: pot pie, but probably the closest. That's probably the closest 184 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: analog that we can think of really quickly. You you 185 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 1: made me think of something. You mentioned how Thomas Jefferson 186 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: rewrote the Bible to get rid of some, you know, 187 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: any offending passages. I guess that that, uh, that to 188 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: upset his delicate sensibilities. And it reminded me I just 189 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: found out we're not super closer anything. We're on internet pals. 190 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: And she's a very talented musician, uh and songwriter in Athens, 191 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: Georgia of Aaron Lovett. She just came out with her 192 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: first book, I believe, and it's called The Secret of 193 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: Chimneys but not racist. Agatha Christie but not racist. So 194 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: she's basically rewritten all these Agatha Christie books and taking 195 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: out all the uncomfortable racist bits. So even some little 196 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: Indians has problems know the original title. It sounds like 197 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: she's doing the whole series, or at least a bunch 198 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 1: of them. Says it's a highly modernized collection of all 199 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: your beloved favorites from legendary Mr Author Agatha Christie. But 200 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: with all the racism and much and as much sexism 201 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: as we could manage without entirely rewriting every female character 202 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: painstakingly redacted by our editors. So good job, Aaron, thanks 203 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: to you. And when we're talking about Thanksgiving, we have 204 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: to be clear that back in those days, there wasn't 205 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 1: an official national fixed day for Thanksgiving where everybody tried 206 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: to take some time off and make nice with their 207 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: relatives and loved ones. Instead, the governor of each state 208 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: every single year would issue this proclamation and really was 209 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: up to them to determine what day it would be. 210 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: Most folks did choose a Thursday in late November, sometimes 211 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: early December. But some people would say, now, let's do 212 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: it on Saturday. And some people would say, ah, let's 213 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,719 Speaker 1: let's wait till January, or let's just get it out 214 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: of the way here in September. And this, uh, this 215 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: got to some folks. I mean, can we say yankee 216 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 1: on air? Enough time has passed, right, I think? I think, 217 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: I think the statute of limitations for that particular slur 218 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: has expired. Yankee Yankee yankee, uh Yankee doodle dandy? Wasn't 219 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: there a sports team called the Yankees. They still is 220 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: is that is that? Is? That? Is that soccer? And 221 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 1: I'm kidding, I don't know sports and Macaroni when he 222 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: sticks a feather in his cap and calls it macaroney 223 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: and the song that means cool. He's trying to be 224 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: like a cool Italian guys, like a hipster thing. But 225 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: all this pushback was seen as pretty absurd by you know, 226 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 1: some of these uh, these these Yankee types. They just 227 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: didn't understand what the beef was or the you know, 228 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: the stuffing was. So a group of Northerners um, who 229 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: were professionals and academics, uh, members of the clergy for example, 230 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: I'm editors, newspapers, teachers, educators, they banded together and they 231 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: started with this article in the series, eats dot Com 232 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: refers to as I love the idea of being an agitator, 233 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: for this makes me think of like poking something with 234 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: a stick. Um. But they decided they were going to 235 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: single handedly, you know, or at least as like a 236 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: you know, kind of hive mind, make Thanksgiving a uniform 237 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: national holiday. And of that group, the clear ringleader was 238 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: a spitfire of a woman named Sarah Josifa Hale. She 239 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: was a widow. She had been widowed in her mid thirties. 240 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: She had five children that she raised on her own. 241 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: Um born in New Hampshire, needed, you know, to make money, 242 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: and she decided that she was going to become a writer, 243 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: and she did just that. She wrote the children's poem 244 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: Mary Had a Little Lamb Heard of that originally known 245 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: as Mary's Lap Mary's m Yeah, in eighteen thirty, hugely, 246 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: hugely iconic poem, and she um got so famous so 247 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: quickly that she decided to use her newfound celebrity as 248 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: a children's author to uh promote causes that she believed 249 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: right yeah, women's issues, other other social movements that were 250 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: close to her heart. She went on to write a 251 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: novel or series novels. Her first one was Northwood or 252 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: Life North and South, which was kind of a compare 253 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: contrast of what she saw his everyday life in the 254 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: southern US and in New England. And there's an entire 255 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: chapter that talks about Thanksgiving celebration on a farm in 256 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: New Hampshire. And in this she said that this celebration 257 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: should be pretty much on the same level as the 258 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: Fourth of July should be a national holiday. Mary had 259 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: a little lamb, as we call it today, a sidebar. 260 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: This happens a lot with songs, like people just take 261 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: the most memorable lyric of a song or poem and 262 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: that becomes the name. Sort of like that poor kid 263 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: who has described as honey boo boo, she has an 264 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: actual name. Honey boo boo is just a phrase she 265 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: used anyway. That's that's a little quick problem with media. 266 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: Here's what happened. This Northwood novel makes Hale a literary superstar. 267 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: Seven she becomes the editor of Goadie's Ladies Book, which 268 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: is the most widely distributed magazine in the country at 269 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: the time. More than a hundred and fifty thousand people 270 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: are reading every issue. So this is her new platform 271 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: to galvanize the public towards celebrating a single, national, unified 272 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving Day. And she takes every November issue of the 273 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: magazine and just stuffs the turkey of the thing with 274 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: all kinds of Thanksgiving stories, poems, recipes, and uh. She 275 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: also writes a lot of editorials like her pins on 276 00:16:55,800 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: fire when she keeps telling America, look, everybody on the 277 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: same page, get on the same plate. We're making Thanksgiving happen. 278 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: It's interesting, right, Like, I don't quite understand where all 279 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: this zeal comes from. You know. I think maybe because 280 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 1: it was a tradition that was brought over to the colonies, 281 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: you know, and became this kind of tradition. And also 282 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: I think there was that there was some resentment that 283 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: the Southerners were looking at it as this kind of 284 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: like you know, almost propaganda thing that was trying to 285 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: be forced onto them. And I think it was almost like, hey, 286 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,719 Speaker 1: hold the phone, this is actually really cool and something 287 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: that I think is very innocuous ultimately and just about family, 288 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: and like why not have a national day where everyone 289 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: gets to take off and kind of enjoy these particular 290 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: foods because it seems nice and pleasant to me and charming. 291 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: And that's certainly how she wrote about it. She created 292 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: this whole almost lore surrounding it. It's almost like, um, 293 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: you know those early catalogs Rember catalog culture ben where 294 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: you had this image of like what you know American 295 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: life should be. It was like it have sold to 296 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: you by these advertisers, the idea of like you know, 297 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: two point five kids and you know, the Cadillac and 298 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: the driveway and all that she was almost doing that 299 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: for the holiday of Thanksgiving, um and making it like 300 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: weaving it into the fabric of that like what you know, what, 301 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: what should life as an American be? Right? Codifying practice 302 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: and through codifying practice, attempting to codify culture, which she 303 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: had arguably succeeded at So back to Hale's story here 304 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: in eighteen forty six, she's been doing this Thanksgiving propaganda 305 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: for some time. She inspires and and launches an annual 306 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: letter writing campaign to all the governors in the nation. 307 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,479 Speaker 1: And in this campaign she urges them to get on 308 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: the same page as I said, get on the same 309 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: plate about Thanksgiving Day, and she says, look, it needs 310 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: to be the last Thursday in November. You can actually 311 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: read her original pitch online Kurt see of our good 312 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,719 Speaker 1: friends over at Atlas Obscures. So shout out to Sarah 313 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: Laskow for that one. Her lobbying is very successful, not 314 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: just in the North but in the South. People from 315 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: the governors rather of various places declared their Thanksgiving Days 316 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 1: officially in eighteen forty seven, and then in eighteen fifty 317 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: Texas followed. In just a few years, most governors of 318 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: southern states have also fallen in line with this, and concurrently, 319 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: Hale was also lobbying federal officials to create a national 320 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: level day of thanks also on you guessed it, folks, 321 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: the last Thursday of November. Her goal this was so 322 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: interesting to me, and it and it seems like a 323 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: good idea. Her goal was to bring the country together 324 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: with something that could be seen as sort of free 325 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: of politics, free of social strife. You're right, the same 326 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:03,719 Speaker 1: way people often celebrate Thanksgiving today, you'll you'll see some 327 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: families that say, all right, we're not discussing politics at 328 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: the table, especially not when you know, Uncle Jimmy has 329 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: had a couple of a couple of beers, so we're 330 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: just going to get through this day together. She thought 331 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: this could ease the growing tensions and divisions between the 332 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: north and south of the US, and by eighteen fifty four, Uh, 333 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: it looked like she was on the path to success. 334 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: More than thirty states and US territories all had Thanksgiving 335 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: on the schedule, but she has hadn't quite made it 336 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: a national holiday. Just to backtrack real quick, and Uh, 337 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 1: for a point of clarification, I've been sort of referring 338 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: to the Civil War as if it were already you know, 339 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 1: kicked off in earnest. It was really more just the 340 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: tensions that led to the Civil War and that divide. 341 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: I mean, they were absolutely palpable, and this was you 342 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: could consider all of this like the run up to 343 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: the Civil War. The South strongly rejected anything that even 344 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 1: had a whiff of Yankee sentiments because they saw it 345 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: as a condemnation of the Southern way of life, which 346 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: was like, you know, owning slaves are cool, um, And 347 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 1: it's like a big government thing, right, because so they're saying, oh, 348 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: this national group, that's a good point. They're saying, it's 349 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: just another way for the federal government, for big Brother 350 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: to tread on us, you know, to oppress us. Which 351 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: is weird because eating turkey is a lot of things. 352 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: But is it an act of oppression? It just feels 353 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: like a stretch. It feels like it does. It does. 354 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: But but they were using this as a tool, you 355 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: know what I mean. I mean, we we see this 356 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: all the time, like very innocuous things are glommed onto 357 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: by an opposition and uh, you know, elevated to some 358 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: kind of to represent something else. Right. In fact, the 359 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: professor emeritus of history at the University of Georgia right 360 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: near where we are, James C. K Um He had 361 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: this to say about it. With the whole prospect of 362 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: a showdown over the expansion of slavery, there was more 363 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: and more rhetoric coming out of the South charging that 364 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving was pretty much a Yankee abolitionist holiday, even though 365 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: you know some maybe slightly more moderate governors I guess 366 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 1: or who weren't jumping on this, uh this bandwagon from 367 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: Arkansas and Mississippi. No less, they did start to kind 368 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: of embrace the idea of Thanksgiving in eighteen forty, in 369 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: the early eighteen forties, issuing these Thanksgiving proclamations that we've 370 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 1: seen in other states, for um, Arkansas, Missippi, respectively. The 371 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: idea of celebrating like a Puritan Northern holiday became more 372 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: and more of a sticking point in the eighteen fifties 373 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: as things really started to heat up with that debate 374 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: on slavery. Yeah. Yeah. Diana Carter apple Bomb sums it 375 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: up perfectly in her work Thanksgiving an American Holiday in 376 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: American History. She says Thanksgiving was above all a new 377 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: inkle and holiday in New England was abolitionist territory. So 378 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: you know a human psychology works, fellow ridiculous historians. If 379 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: you already don't care for someone, then everything you see 380 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: them do is going to be another reason for you 381 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: not to like them, even if it's something as innocuous says, hey, 382 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: let's all eat dinner together. People who are front and 383 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: center on the idea of a national Thanksgiving holiday also 384 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: tended to be Protestants, Northern Evangelical Protestants, and those folks 385 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: were themselves very closely linked to the abolitionist movement. And 386 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: you know, at this time, nothing occurs in a vacuum. 387 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: At this time, UH, people are increasingly in favor of 388 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: abolition in the eighteen forties, and a lot of Northern 389 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: ministers are going to the pulpit during Thanksgiving season to 390 00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 1: talk about how horrific and terrible slavery is. So south Owners, 391 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: the rulers of the southern region at this time, start 392 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: to the buck. They pushed back against the idea of Thanksgiving, 393 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: and especially in Virginia, I believe, where the local leaders said, 394 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: our state is the real cradle of this nation, not those, 395 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: not those UH jerks up in New England. And so 396 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: this this occurs. This resistance to Thanksgiving also occurs in 397 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: other ideas, like because to them, it very much is 398 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: a culture war. Southerners, even the very well to do Southerners, 399 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: are saying, hey, let's not send our kids to those 400 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: Ivy League schools up north. Let's not have Yankees teach 401 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 1: our kids. And you know what if a magazine, if 402 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: a magazine is published in these northern states, then I 403 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: will be damned good sir, if I will ever soiled 404 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: my eyes by looking upon its page. YEA, Indeed, it 405 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: was pretty pretty crazy. It was like, you know, again, 406 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: this whole the antide Thanksgiving sentiment was really just wrapped 407 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: up in this anti northern the sentiment in the South, 408 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: just looking for any excuse to escalate. So Thanksgiving this 409 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: kind of became part of one of those things that 410 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: you just mentioned that nah, we we don't, we don't 411 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: celebrate that Yankee travesty of a holiday, no thank you. 412 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: In eighteen fifty three, Governor Joseph Johnson UM he declined 413 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: to declare a day for Thanksgiving for his state, saying 414 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: that he sided with Thomas Jefferson. That interesting point we 415 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: talked about earlier, the idea of separating church from state. Um. 416 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 1: Johnson's successor was this slave owning real pill named Henry A. Wise, 417 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: who was even more in the separation of church and state. 418 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: Camp In six um he got that same letter that 419 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: Sarah Josepha Hill had been sending all of the governors 420 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 1: encouraging them to declare a general day for Thanksgiving. And 421 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: I only did Wise say absolutely not, but he who 422 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: wrote her back a strongly worded letter where he um, 423 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: you know, laid out his his position on the issue. Uh. 424 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: Thus Lee, this theatrical national clap trap of Thanksgiving has 425 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 1: aided other causes and setting thousands of bull bits to 426 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: preach in Christian politics instead of humbling, letting the cornal 427 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: kingdom alone and preaching singly Christ crucified. Yeah, and just 428 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: a point in clarity there. Governor Joseph Johnson and Henry A. Wise, 429 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: they're governors of Virginia. They were successors, they won, one 430 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: came after the other, and they both were similarly focused 431 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: on this separation of church and state. But again, I'm 432 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: still not in any of our research not seeing any 433 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: religious ties at all to Thanksgiving. It strikes me as 434 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: even in its onset, to be a very secular holiday um, 435 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: I mean obviously the church service, you know, promoting giving 436 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: thanks and all that. I mean that that's the separate thing. 437 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: You know, it's up to you as to whether you 438 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: make it religious or not in your house. But all 439 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: of the you know, even like the church, the reliy 440 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: of the songs around Thanksgiving, like we gathered together well 441 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 1: does said to ask the Lord's blessing? I guess there's 442 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: you know, the Puritan angle Maybes. And again the Protestants 443 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 1: who are pushing this are like champions of abolition, so 444 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 1: it's seen as supporting that holiday from the southern perspective 445 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: if their pro slavery is seen as supporting abolition, which 446 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: they were very much not. I mean, let's call it 447 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: what it is. Governor Johnson and Governor Wise, we're both 448 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 1: super into enslaving people. They saw nothing wrong with it, 449 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: and they didn't want to erode what they saw as 450 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: the status quo. The Richmond Wig later articulates the case 451 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: against Thanksgiving. Uh more so when they say it's not 452 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: it is enough, so maybe they are agreeing a little 453 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: more with you. They say it's it's too worldly. And 454 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 1: the Richmond Wig, by the way, is a publication. They say, 455 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: what people should be doing on Thanksgiving is praying. And 456 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: in the District of Columbia they said all the federal 457 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 1: offices are closed, but quote an astonishing quantity of execrable 458 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,880 Speaker 1: liquor will be guzzled and the holiday would be little 459 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: more than an occasion for indulgence in dissipation at the 460 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: cost of character. What was that word been execrable X 461 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: What does that mean like like like like intoxicating. No, 462 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: it means like disgusting, like excellent. It's it's He's basically 463 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: saying that it's that it's the devil's the devil's juice. Yes, understood. 464 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: And again I just want to point out that we 465 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: are still kind of these simmering tensions and all of 466 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: this really charged rhetoric is all just kind of the 467 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: run up to the Civil War, which is coming closer 468 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: day by day. On the actual eve of the start 469 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: of the Civil War, the acceptance of Thanksgiving in the 470 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: South was still very very spotty. There was really no 471 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: rhyme or reason to it. It was up to individuals 472 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: and individual governors, you know, as to declaring a special 473 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: day that would be you know, a government holiday. Those 474 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: that did decide to observe the holiday treated it like 475 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: a religious day, like something likely going to a mass, 476 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: you know, or a day of relaxation where you would 477 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: have you know, big, a big spread with the family, 478 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: like a homecoming kind of situation. But it was there, 479 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: there was wild inconsistencies with the way it was was 480 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: practiced right, and it's very much this is not for nothing, folks. 481 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: Was I saying this has comparisons to the so called 482 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: War on Christmas in the modern day because commentators in 483 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: the South said, look, we already have a holiday of 484 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: feasting and celebration towards the end of the year. It's 485 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: called Christmas. In New England, there was still this legacy, 486 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: this puritan belief that Christmas was a secular abomination. And hey, 487 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: look around at the various traditions of Christmas and where 488 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: they come from. They're not entirely off base in in 489 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: that it's not you know, it's not entirely Christian in 490 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: its roots. But Christmas up there wasn't considered a real 491 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: celebratory occasion until about the eighteen seventies. From the Southern perspective, 492 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: many people said this idea of having Thanksgiving and then 493 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: right after having Christmas is redundant. We're losing a day's 494 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: income for workers, for businesses, and some Southern newspapers like 495 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: the Richmond Daily Dispatch even accused Northerners of trying to 496 00:30:55,400 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: unseat the traditional religious holiday of Christmas with this Thanksgiving 497 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: dinner bs this malarkey. So so the war Christmas is 498 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: an old, old idea in this country. But this is 499 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: not the end of the story, because the nation is 500 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: hurtling headlong into one of the bloodiest conflicts it will 501 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: ever face up to the present. That I believe is 502 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: where we want to pause for part one of our 503 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: exploration of Thanksgiving, that old Yankee abolitionist holiday. What do 504 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: you say, noll I, I think we've got a little 505 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: cliffhanger right as we're as we're right before the Civil War, 506 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: you know, I'm here for a cliffhanger. Vand and yeah, 507 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: definitely a shorter two partner. But it did feel nice 508 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: and modular. You know. We put two of these out 509 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,959 Speaker 1: a week because guys, give us a break, give us 510 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: a two partner. Y'all are the best. We love all 511 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: of you so much, all of the ridiculous historians out there. 512 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: Thank you to you, first and foremost, Um Thank you 513 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: to Max Williams, our super producer extraordinaire, and his bro 514 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: Alex Williams, who composed our theme and did a lovely 515 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: guest appearance on Ridiculous History while I was away on 516 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: Adventures the other week where you guys did a two 517 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: partner on the New England Vampire Pack right yep, and 518 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: Max was away as well. Thank you guys both for 519 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: Thank you guys both for returning and regaling me with 520 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: stories of your adventures. Uh. We also want to thank, 521 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: of course, Jonathan Strickland, a k a. The Quister. If 522 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: you're listening to this episode the day it comes out, 523 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: we have a treat for you. Our our pal slash 524 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: Nemesis is starring in his own episode of Thirteen Days 525 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: of Halloween, which should be available now, so do check 526 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: it out. Let us know what you think. We also, 527 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: of course, I want to thank Gabe Blusier, our research associate. 528 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: We want to thank you know what, just in advance. 529 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: I want to thank everybody who is kind enough to 530 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: host their friends and loved ones at their houses for Thanksgiving. 531 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: I know it's not easy. I know it's a heck 532 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: of a lot of cooking. I know sometimes people aren't 533 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: as thankful as they need to be. But we promise you, folks, 534 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: if you just like that speech at the very end 535 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: of Scrooged, if you, if you let a little you know, 536 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: let a little love in your life. Uh, and you 537 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: make it a point to let the people in your 538 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: life know that you appreciate them, you will be surprised 539 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: by how much better you feel. As well. Agreed, We'll 540 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: see you next time, folks. For more podcasts for my 541 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 542 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.