1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Possible Now Stories of Possibilities, the podcast where 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: we dive into the leadership frameworks, bold ideas and personal 3 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: stories shaping the future of marketing, technology and leadership. There's 4 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 1: the reason the best films stay with us long after 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: the credits role. They don't just entertain, They shift culture, 6 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: They change conversations, and they make us see the world differently. 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: That's the power of storytelling, and it's also where the 8 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,919 Speaker 1: future of marketing, media, advertising and culture is heavy. I'm 9 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: Christie Much and this is Possible Now Stories of Possibilities, 10 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: the podcast where we explore bold ideas and the leaders 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: reshaping business, creativity and technology. And today I have the 12 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: honor of welcoming someone who embodies that vision. Michael Sugar 13 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: is an Academy Award winning producer of Spotlight. He's brought 14 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: us acclaimed series like the Netflix hit Thirteen Reasons Why, 15 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: the Nick, Collateral, Beauty, and Maniac, and through his company 16 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: Sugar twenty three, he's building a creative powerhouse that expands 17 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: far beyond Hollywood into publishing, podcasting, digital and now brand 18 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: storytelling at the very highest level. Michael is more than 19 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: a producer. He's a cultural architect, a visionary who's blurring 20 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: the line between entertainment and marketing, between art and commerce, 21 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: between purpose and profit. He has been nominated for multiple 22 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: Emmys and Golden Globes, has received two Television Academy Honor 23 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: and so many more, and today we get to step 24 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: into his world. Welcome Michael Sugar. 25 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I appreciate that introduction. I'm 26 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 2: really excited. 27 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: To talk Michael. Before we dive really into the details 28 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: of storytelling. Then and now, please can you tell us 29 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: how you ended up up in Hollywood. Give us some 30 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: background about the last I don't know ten twenty thirty 31 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: years of your activities in Hollywood. 32 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 2: I've always wanted from as long as I can remember, 33 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 2: to tell stories. My brother and I used to play 34 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 2: studio as kids, and I think this was because I 35 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 2: was so moved by the movies and shows that I 36 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 2: experienced as a child, and so I went to school 37 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 2: always with the same sense of my future, which was 38 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 2: that I was going to make movies. I even went 39 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 2: to law school knowing that I wasn't going to practice law, 40 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 2: and so when I started in Hollywood, I was like 41 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 2: anyone with a dream, just trying to figure out my 42 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: way and I think really accidentally fell into talent management 43 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 2: as my entry point. So I started representing writers, directors, actors, 44 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: and they were mostly undiscovered people. In fact, at the 45 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: beginning they were entirely underscore governed artists, and started making 46 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: my way with them. What ended up happening, you know, 47 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 2: maybe twenty years ago, is I saw the opportunity to 48 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: start producing. It was always my passion to be on 49 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: the set, involved in the creativity, rather than just visiting 50 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 2: an actor or a director who was doing their movie. 51 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: And so that sort of second chapter for me was born. 52 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: Awesome, that's a great story, Michael. I mean, this is 53 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: not the end of the story for show. There many 54 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: more to come. But if you're life up to this 55 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: point were turned into a film, into a movie not 56 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: produced by you but by someone else, what should be 57 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: or what could be the title of that movie? Can 58 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: you imagine? 59 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 2: Wow? That's a tough question to answer in real time, Christian, 60 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 2: but I think maybe dream it and build it. That's 61 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 2: a good choice. That's a good choice. That's not a 62 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: very good catchy title for a movie. As a producer, 63 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: I would strike that title. But I think ostensibly, what 64 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: I'm trying to say is I've really always tried to 65 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: do things that haven't been done before in the industry 66 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: that has lived a certain way for a long time. 67 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: So I think that the sort of key moments in 68 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: my career and the key transformations were connected to moments 69 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: of disruption and the need to change systems that were working. 70 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: So let's talk about storytelling. And because you decided to 71 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: expand significantly into a new form of content a while ago, 72 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: that is not what we typically think about as branded 73 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: content or marketing spend, right, What could you see in 74 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: this evolving entertainment and advertising business landscape that not many 75 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: others could foresee? 76 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 2: Well, I think, first of all, I didn't invent this. 77 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 2: There are many others that have been doing this long 78 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 2: before me, so I won't take any credit for that 79 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 2: disruption at all. And what you said was interesting. You 80 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: said a new form of content, but I actually think 81 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: it's the same form of content. What I'm really trying 82 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: to do differently is a new relationship between those that 83 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 2: have paid for that content for decades and the audience 84 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 2: that has consumed that content. Right, So what I'm focused 85 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 2: on is not making shows and movies for brands. I'm 86 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 2: focused on making shows and movies with brands for the 87 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: purpose of the brand values, the brand ethos, whatever the 88 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 2: brand is trying to solve for being much more interconnected 89 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 2: to the outcome than has otherwise been offered to them 90 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: in the past in the form of pure integration or 91 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 2: renting thirty seconds against someone else's content. So it's not 92 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 2: new content at all that we're trying to create. We're 93 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 2: trying to make the kinds of content audiences are used 94 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 2: to loving and consuming and devouring with passion, and have 95 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 2: the brands be behind them, notably behind them with great attribution, 96 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: but not necessarily in them per se. Integration, of course 97 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 2: is important when it's authentic, But what we think is 98 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 2: more important is that the people who love the content 99 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 2: that love the brand for giving it to them, and 100 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 2: it creates a new relationship. 101 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 1: So the different stages of storytelling and where it is today, 102 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: do you think that there's something radically different compared to 103 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: the past, or if there's any kind of development you 104 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: can see what is the reason behind? Is it the 105 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: influence of technology in today's time? Is it audience expectations 106 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: or the change of behavior? What could it be? 107 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 2: Well, the reason I love your conference so much is 108 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 2: because you've brought together worlds that are normally separate, and 109 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 2: they aren't separate. Let's start with technology. Streaming changed Hollywood, right, 110 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 2: we know this to be the case, but it also 111 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 2: changed the relationship between advertisers and the consumer through the 112 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 2: medium that Hollywood has created. So let's start with technology. 113 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 2: There's been a change the disintermediation of advertisers. The move 114 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 2: away from linear television into streaming or at least another 115 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: place for an audience to go, has created a friction 116 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 2: for advertisers. That friction has also created problems for the 117 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 2: linear programmers because they're unable to sell the inventory at 118 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: the price points they were able to spend before, which 119 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 2: creates a problem for the entertainment industry because the economics 120 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: have shrump. And so the way that I look at 121 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 2: where we are, and this is my long way of 122 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 2: answering your short question why now, is that every stakeholder 123 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: in this system has been forced to reconcile the change 124 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 2: and adjust. The advertisers need to reach an audience that 125 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 2: is far more fragmented than it's ever been. Hollywood, it's 126 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 2: well reported, is struggling because there's just not as much 127 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: opportunity as there was five, ten, fifteen years ago, and 128 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: the audiences are so hungry for good content amongst the 129 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 2: noise that what's happened recently, and again I'm not the 130 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 2: person who invented this at all, but what's happened is 131 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 2: that there is a new embrace of this change of 132 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 2: relationship because it solves for every leg of the stool. 133 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: And I think that's why we're having success, because advertisers 134 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 2: need a new lane to reach its consumer. Distributors. When 135 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 2: I say distributors, I mean the premium streamers and broadcasters 136 00:08:54,520 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 2: need help with their content because it's been, as you know, 137 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 2: a cold war and a proliferation of content, and that 138 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 2: becomes expensive. And the audience is still crave what they've 139 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 2: always craved, which is really great content. And so I 140 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 2: think that's why we've landed in this almost perfect storm 141 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 2: of opportunity for brands to enter Hollywood this way. 142 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,839 Speaker 1: So you perfectly described the situation of now. But can 143 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: you already see the next level of storytelling or the 144 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 1: next kind of format of storytelling which will break into 145 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: the mainstream, which we can't see yet. 146 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know that. What I'm working hard 147 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 2: at and my team is working at is going to 148 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 2: change storytelling per se. I think storytelling from the beginning 149 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 2: of time has always been can I tell you something 150 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 2: that captures your attention long enough and moves you deeply 151 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 2: enough to connect to it, right, And that's whether you're 152 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 2: around a campfire or you're behind a television or a 153 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 2: movie screen. That's through line of storytelling. So I don't 154 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 2: think that will ever change, and I don't think that 155 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: even changes with the proliferation of AI. I think at 156 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 2: the end of the day, good stories are good stories, 157 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 2: regardless of the medium books, this podcast, for example. But 158 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 2: I think what is going to change is the way 159 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 2: that audiences connect to the brands that have always paid 160 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: for that audience, right. And so what I've seen happen 161 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 2: is an acceptance of brands telling stories. I mean, look 162 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 2: at Amazon for example. Right when I speak to brand leaders, 163 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: they would love to be on Amazon or Apple because 164 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 2: they think of them as distributors. But Amazon and Apple 165 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 2: are brands that recognized rightly in my mind that storytelling 166 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 2: through entertainment is the ultimate loyalty program. Because I'm quite 167 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 2: sure that any Jasse and Tim Cook are not looking 168 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: at the revenues from entertainment as a force multiplier in 169 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 2: the growth of their business per se. But it's an 170 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: entry point into a loyalty and an embrace of that brand. 171 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 2: So to me, that's where it's going. That's the change. 172 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: And I think audiences are savvy. They don't want to 173 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 2: be sold to. We paid to skip commercials rather than 174 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,839 Speaker 2: watch them. But nobody objects to going to watch the 175 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 2: Lakers at Crypto dot com arena. They don't stop watching 176 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 2: an F one or NASCAR race because there's a brand 177 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 2: on the car hood. And they'll still watch a soccer 178 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 2: team or football as you call it, when there's a 179 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: brand on the jersey. So if we can create the 180 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 2: same thing with films television, and I should be really clear, 181 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 2: that's not the only way the brand would show up 182 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 2: in our model, it's just the first place. But I 183 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 2: think audiences are comfortable as long as they of the 184 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 2: content they're getting. 185 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: That's a very interesting point. Let's follow up on this 186 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: quickie you've said. I've seen it in an interview. You 187 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: said that advertisers once bought the right to interrupt stories, 188 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 1: and now storytelling itself seems to be the ad itself. 189 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: What new creative muscles does that demand from both Hollywood 190 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: and brands. Let's focus a bit more on the brand side. 191 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: You know, that's quite interesting how brands needs to adjust 192 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: and change their perspective into this. 193 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the way that this works. 194 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 2: And I'm glad you asked this question because there are 195 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 2: folks out there that dismiss Hollywood going to brands as 196 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 2: a money grab and in some cases that's a well 197 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 2: earned phrase, because Hollywood has often gone to brands when 198 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 2: they just need some extra money. That's not what we do. 199 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 2: I think what is really important is that we start 200 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 2: with brand. We start with becoming fluid with what the 201 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 2: brand is trying to solve. What's the demographic they want 202 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 2: to reach, what's the audience they care about. What do 203 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: they want the audience to feel about the brand and 204 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 2: know about the brand that they don't already know, and 205 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 2: how we can use this medium to send that message. 206 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 2: So it starts with a deep study of what a 207 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 2: brand is trying to do, and we dive deeply with 208 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 2: our brand partners early on to understand what's keeping the 209 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 2: c suite up at night, what are the things you're 210 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 2: trying to solve for At scale, we take that brand 211 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 2: fluency and we combine it with a Hollywood fluency. We 212 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: understand what sells in Hollywood. We understand what moves talent 213 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 2: to the IP. We understand what good IP is and 214 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: what not so good IP is. And then we try 215 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 2: to make a match between great IP and a brand 216 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 2: who would benefit from that relationship to that IP. And 217 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 2: then the final piece of the puzzle, and this is 218 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 2: the biggest piece of the puzzle, and it's something that 219 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 2: I think is uniquely suited to us. But also look 220 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 2: at how we can take something that's great that we 221 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 2: could maybe sell to Netflix and make it perfect for 222 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 2: a brand that we're working with by changing something in 223 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 2: the creative. That's our creative piece of this matchmaking. So 224 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 2: it takes three things just to recap it. We need 225 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: brand fluency, we need Hollywood fluency, and we have that 226 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: in our teams. And then our creative piece of the 227 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 2: puzzle is how can we make something that's almost right 228 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: exactly right? Because most brand leaders will tell you, and 229 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 2: they certainly have told me, when we advertise against another 230 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 2: show or we integrate into another show, there's like ten 231 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 2: or twenty percent of it we wish wasn't there. It's 232 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 2: not exactly right. For our brand that one scene later 233 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 2: on that's a little off brand for us. Well, by 234 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 2: bringing the brains in early, it's less expensive. They have 235 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 2: an outsized creative impact on that, and they have financial 236 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: upside in our model. So that ten or twenty percent 237 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 2: that may not just be right for them, we can 238 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 2: make right. 239 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: You also said that brands can now become a full 240 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: fledged creator of film and TV, and the CMO, of 241 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: course is driving this. So what's the biggest mindset shift 242 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: a CMO has to make before stepping into Hollywood? Credibly? 243 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: And what kind of role do you see for CMO? 244 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: Is it kind of executive producer? Is it to be 245 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: a sponsor of that movie? 246 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 2: Great question. Cmos are storytellers, they are producers. They come 247 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 2: up with an idea, they have to make that idea 248 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 2: fully fleshed, they have to raise the money like a producer, 249 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: and they have to find an audience. So they are 250 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 2: storytellers intrinsically. I think the challenge that we face and 251 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 2: I really hope that more cmos are given the freedom 252 00:15:55,960 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 2: to think this way, and many thankfully have, is they 253 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 2: are judged on quarterly KPIs time is of the essence, 254 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 2: speed is everything, and making movies and TV shows takes 255 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 2: more time than making a thirty second commercial. There's just 256 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 2: no way around that. And so the first thing they 257 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: have to shift in their mindset is expectation of delivery 258 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 2: of timetable in one quarter. It's just not generally going 259 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: to happen. Sometimes we get something that's more baked, and 260 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 2: a brand can plug in in an appropriate way. We've 261 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: done that for sure, but generally speaking, if a brand 262 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 2: wants to author from the beginning, they have to buy 263 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: into this is going to take a little bit more 264 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 2: time than they're used to. The second thing that they 265 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 2: have to buy into is that this is a brand 266 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 2: over time play more than a product in this quarter play. 267 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 2: And so I don't really think that this is the 268 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 2: best way in most cases to sell a product in 269 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: Q four, but it's the best way to sell the 270 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 2: brand for the next five years. And so that's the 271 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 2: next mind shift, the last thing, or there's many other things, 272 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: but the last thing on my mind, yeah, is that 273 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: they need to unlearn the desire or the need to 274 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 2: be in every frame of something for it to benefit 275 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 2: a brand. And the irony is they know this because 276 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 2: of other media, right, Like I referenced a stadium earlier. 277 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 2: You know, Crypto dot Com spent I think seven hundred 278 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 2: million dollars to put its name on a stadium. But 279 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 2: they're not in Every time Lebron James shoots a free 280 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 2: throw or Lizzo does a concert, they're not talking about 281 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 2: Crypto dot Com. But everyone that walks through those doors 282 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 2: knows that that's who opened those doors for them. So 283 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 2: I think it's a little bit of unlearning and also 284 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 2: understanding and belief that if it's excellent and people love it, 285 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 2: and this is crucial, there's enough attribution to the brand 286 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,120 Speaker 2: that's clear to the audience. It's a wing yeah, right, 287 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: because if you ask this is an unscientific test. But 288 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 2: my suspicion is if you asked one hundred people on 289 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 2: the street who made the Avengers, I would say a 290 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 2: great majority would say Marvel. But Marvel is not in 291 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: one frame of the Avengers other than at the top. 292 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 2: It's not a no one drinks some Marvel, or eats 293 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 2: some Marvel, or wears a Marvel. It's just clear that 294 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 2: Marvel gave the audience that thing, and it creates value 295 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 2: to Marvel. And I think the same could be true 296 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 2: the same is true for Amazon and Apple. Right, Apple 297 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 2: gets all the credit for the shows it puts on 298 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 2: its platform, as does Amazon, but it's not heavily branded 299 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 2: within the shows. So I think that's another big buy in. 300 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: You mentioned the RII. You know that that brands and 301 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: cemos needs to away from that perspective. What is the 302 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: new RAI in this world, in the brand driven storytelling world, 303 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: If it's no longer clicks and impressions. 304 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 2: Well, ultimately it is clicks and impressions in a new form. 305 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 2: And certainly I don't think they have to move off 306 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 2: of ROI. That's crucial. There has to be ROI, absolutely, 307 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 2: But I think the challenge is some marketers feel like 308 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 2: they have to see the data ahead of time to 309 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 2: prove the concept, which is totally fair and reasonable in 310 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 2: certain advertising media. I think what's difficult now, But I 311 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 2: think in three years when we do this podcast, we 312 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 2: can refer to this and say, well, that was you 313 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 2: were right about that, I hope, or maybe I'll be wrong. 314 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 2: But we know for a fact that entertainment moves culture. 315 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 2: We know for a fact that entertainment shifts consumer behavior. 316 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 2: That's why advertisers buy ads against it and that's why 317 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: advertisers integrate into it. But it's impossible to predict what's 318 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 2: cultural phenomenon because by definition, a phenomenon only happens by accident. 319 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 2: So when The Queen's Gambit came out on Netflix, the 320 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 2: chess industry benefited exponentially by accident. When Paul Giamatti in 321 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 2: Sideways said f murlou in that movie, Murleau as a 322 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 2: category suffered immensely. We've seen what F one has done 323 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 2: with Drive to Survive. We knew even Back to the Future, 324 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 2: which was one of my favorite movies. I talk about 325 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 2: it all the time. It launched the skateboarding industry. These 326 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 2: are all accidents that happened. But what we're trying to 327 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 2: do is manufacture accidents. We're trying to create something that 328 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: will move culture. And by virtue of the fact that 329 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 2: we are the makers and our partners, we partner with 330 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 2: fifty to one hundred other producers by the way, they 331 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 2: make hits, so you mitigate that risk that it will 332 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,719 Speaker 2: not be seen. But if you author something that becomes 333 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 2: a phenomenon, then you get all the benefit. And that's 334 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 2: the advantage. Right. If Mattel had made Queen's Gambit they 335 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 2: could have had an outsized return on its chess game boards, 336 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 2: then the whole category did. 337 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 1: Michael, how often do you experience attention, let's say, between 338 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: brand goals and storytelling integrity? And how do you manage that? 339 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: Do you teach brands in a way that they might 340 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: adjust their brand goals to make it more aligned with 341 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: the integrity of a story. 342 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 2: If you ask me what has surprised me most about 343 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 2: this last few years, where I have lived and breathed 344 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 2: brands every day, the most surprising thing is how wonderful 345 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 2: the relationship has been between the sort of traditional Hollywood 346 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 2: storytellers and brands. The presumption that it will be full 347 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 2: of friction has not proven to be true at all, 348 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 2: because the entry point is almost based on this acceptance 349 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 2: that the brand makes the product better than any Hollywood 350 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 2: storyteller ever could the product the brand sells, and that 351 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 2: the people we're bringing to these projects make shows and 352 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 2: movies better than any brand could. And so we're agreeing 353 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 2: from the beginning that both sides do something better. And 354 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: then what we really work on is what's going to 355 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 2: work best for the brand that also works best for 356 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 2: the creative. So it's not like a commercial shoot where 357 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 2: you have a creative agency in the brand telling the 358 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 2: director exactly where to place the product in the shot. 359 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 2: We're not finding that so far. Ever. What we found 360 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 2: is that the brand is saying that sixteen year old 361 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 2: brother in this show, could he be eighteen because we're 362 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 2: focused on college more than high school and we'd love 363 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 2: him to be going into college instead of becoming a 364 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,439 Speaker 2: senior in high school. Well, that's no problem because that 365 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 2: doesn't change our creative at all. Could it be set 366 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 2: in this city instead of that city? So we're finding 367 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 2: things that are not controversial to the creative people, and 368 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 2: because the brand is behind it from the beginning, we're 369 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 2: not forcing an integration at the end. We're not forcing 370 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 2: an integration when the show is already being made and 371 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: we need a liquor company to come in and put 372 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 2: some drink in some movie star's hand. We're doing it 373 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 2: from the very beginning. So the integration has become far 374 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 2: more authentic. So we've not found that friction at all. 375 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: Hey, let's move on and talk about your company, Sugar 376 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: twenty three. By the way, maybe I miss it completely, 377 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: but I Sugar twenty three. 378 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 2: The story about Sugar twenty three is really I'll give 379 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 2: you some of the story, but the headline is when 380 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 2: I decided to start the company, I had investors that 381 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 2: supported me from my previous company, Anonymous Content, and they 382 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 2: really felt it was important that my name was in 383 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: the company. 384 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. 385 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 2: I actually would have preferred and would preferred not to 386 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 2: have my name in the company. But it's at least 387 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 2: it sounds like, you know, it's a noun. So Sugar 388 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 2: is okay, and twenty three is my lucky number. And 389 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 2: I had to decide pretty quickly what the name of 390 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 2: the company was going to be. So it's not as 391 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 2: mysterious and wonderful a story as it could be. But 392 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 2: ostensibly I had about twenty four hours to decide, and 393 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 2: I had to use my name, so I just threw 394 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 2: in my lucky number, got it. It also coincided with 395 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 2: I started the company exactly twenty three years after I 396 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 2: started in the entertainment industry. 397 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: Okay, that's your lucky number. So Sugar twenty three has 398 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: become much more than a production company. As I said 399 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: in my intro, you expanded into podcasts, publishing, digital and brands. 400 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: Was that the strategy from day one, from the beginning 401 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: on or did the business evolve more like a story itself. 402 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: Was it the plan from the day one? 403 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 2: No, the plan from day one didn't involve brands at all. 404 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 2: In fact, it was my hope to not actually work 405 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 2: with brands too much when I started this company because 406 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 2: I saw this friction in having worked on so many 407 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 2: commercials at anonymous content. I always wanted to have a 408 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 2: multimedia company because I believe storytellers have different stories to 409 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 2: tell and sometimes they live on different media. Right. You 410 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 2: look at the directors that make movies that now make television, 411 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 2: world class directors and an actors. Right. I was very 412 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 2: involved in True Detective, which was really one of the 413 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 2: first shows alongside House of Cards, where a list movie 414 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 2: stars were appearing in television, which now is quite the norm. 415 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 2: But brands was not something that I thought I was 416 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 2: going to do. And just to be clear, brands is 417 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 2: almost my singular purpose right now, bringing brands into this 418 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 2: new relationship. So the whole company is a brand forward company. Right. 419 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 2: We don't have a brand division like many other Hollywood 420 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 2: companies have. We have a full team of about fifty 421 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 2: people that are singularly focused on bringing entertainment to audiences 422 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 2: and bringing brands into that conversation. Well, of course, Netflix 423 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 2: and Apple and Paramount are brands, so we still service 424 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 2: traditional entertainment, but the entire company focuses on the agendas 425 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 2: of the brands we serve. So our production team, which 426 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 2: is normally a Hollywood facing team, is the production team 427 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 2: for our brand partners. It's not like a separate unit 428 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 2: within the company. We all work together to figure out 429 00:26:58,480 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 2: the best opportunities. 430 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: Looking back, at least into recent years, was there a 431 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: culture moment you missed to produce or you wish Sugar 432 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: twenty three had produced? Was there anything you said, oh 433 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: that was a missing opportunity for us? 434 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 2: Oh, of course, every Well sometimes they're not actually opportunities. 435 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 2: But you know, I look at things that are successful 436 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 2: all the time and have envy and you know, I 437 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 2: wish that I had been involved with it. You know, 438 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 2: certainly even right now you look at Kpop and what's 439 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 2: going on with Netflix and their success, and yeah, Look, 440 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 2: you always have missed opportunities when you're a producer of 441 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 2: entertainment because it's not always just on the page, right, 442 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 2: It's it's not always clear from an idea or a screenplay, 443 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 2: and then sometimes it's just the right actor that came 444 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 2: around that makes it what it is. I love your question, 445 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 2: but I also don't like your question because I really 446 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 2: try not to ever look back with regret for missed opportunities, 447 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 2: because I'm a big believer that a closed door opens 448 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,239 Speaker 2: another one. And I don't know what benefit there is 449 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 2: in licking my wounds because I didn't make something. But 450 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 2: generally I'm pretty convicted when I see something, and so 451 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 2: I don't live with a lot of regret at all. 452 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,479 Speaker 1: Good Good. There was a news recently, I think it 453 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: was last week about you and AD Council. So let's 454 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: talk about that new partnership you created with the AD Council. 455 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 1: It's about AD Council Entertainment. Please give us some background 456 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: what it means and how you're mixing now social impact 457 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: and scripted storytelling. How do you see mission driven entertainment 458 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: shaping both Hollywood and brand marketing now over the next decade. 459 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,239 Speaker 1: So tell us a bit more the idea behind and 460 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: what we can expect in the next couple of weeks 461 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: a month. 462 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 2: I would say, among many of my achievements in life, 463 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 2: like this is something I'm about as excited for as 464 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: anything else I've ever done. As you know, the AD 465 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 2: Council has been around for a long time eighty years 466 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 2: and has been behind some of the most moving and 467 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 2: impactful campaigns ever, you know, starting early on as Smoky 468 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,719 Speaker 2: to Bear, you know, all the other campaigns that have 469 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 2: really brought attention to the issues that face our country. 470 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: And there are always a lot of issues to solve. 471 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 2: So the Eye Council has been an incredible force with 472 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: the support of brands and Hollywood together and the media 473 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 2: to make change through PSAs and billboards and pamphlets and 474 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 2: all the other myriad resources. And that's really important that 475 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 2: the AD Council has created to give people hope for 476 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 2: a better future. And on my side of the equation, 477 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 2: I've always been drawn towards telling stories that move people 478 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 2: to change as well. Right, Spotlight was a good example 479 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 2: of a movie that was certainly meant to be entertaining 480 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 2: on its surface, and we didn't make it to change 481 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 2: some of the institutional corruption in the Catholic Church, and 482 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 2: certainly we didn't want to attack the Catholic Church as 483 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 2: an institution, but there was some institutional change that was 484 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 2: needed and frankly was made because of that movie. Thirteen 485 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 2: reasons why again another show. We didn't set out to 486 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 2: be dogmatic or preachy about the issues facing kids in 487 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: our country. We knew it was going to tackle that issue, 488 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,479 Speaker 2: but it became a sensation in this country, you know. 489 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 2: I think something like forty or fifty thousand high schools 490 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 2: sent letters to every parent talking about the show. So 491 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 2: I've always been drawn to stories that have entertainment on 492 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 2: the surface and import underneath. So when Lisa Sherman and 493 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 2: I got to talking about an affect Christian, you were 494 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 2: very nearby, sitting a table away. When we had this 495 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,239 Speaker 2: first conversation. I remember it well. We started thinking about, well, 496 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 2: wait a second, if we're trying to move the world 497 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: through content, why not do it through the kind of 498 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 2: content that people invite into their home rather than pay 499 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 2: to skip and or in addition to that, I should say, 500 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 2: because that's still a very important part of how they 501 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 2: communicate to the audience, but to add a layer through 502 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 2: long form entertainment just made so much sense. And so 503 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 2: I'm really excited about it. And we're already getting bombarded 504 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,959 Speaker 2: with opportunities from throughout Hollywood and sports and music who 505 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 2: are coming to us, and as Lisa and I have 506 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 2: said a few times like we are not meant to 507 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 2: be the only producers of entertainment for AD Council. Sugar 508 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 2: twenty three is really just here to be a conduit 509 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 2: for all of the storytellers that have something to say 510 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 2: that might be right to partner with the AD Council. 511 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: So everybody can join. Obviously who's interested. 512 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 2: In everyone is welcome, but more the better. 513 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: What a great project can you imagine about a social 514 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: issue in today's time? You would like to jump immediately 515 00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: on it, you know, and want to create a story 516 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: and put do use the story about it? Is there 517 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: one dedicated topic you would like to start immediately on it? 518 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 2: The Eye Council, you know, every year has votes on 519 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 2: the issues that they're going to focus most on, and 520 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 2: there's also evergreen topics. So there's about twenty or so 521 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 2: pillars I would say to answer your question are at 522 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 2: least first core target is the availability and value of 523 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 2: mental health resources and focusing on the epidemic of loneliness 524 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 2: and the mental health crisis that we are clearly having 525 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 2: in this country and throughout the world right now. And 526 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 2: so what we're looking to do is and we have 527 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 2: a number of things in development already with it or 528 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 2: the Eye Council that tackle some of those issues. But 529 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 2: you know, how do we frame those conversations in a 530 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 2: way that is very digestible to an audience, right And 531 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 2: one of the things that we're really excited about is 532 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 2: there's just so much coming me in on that subject, 533 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 2: but also focused on a number of other issues that 534 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 2: are of great importance not only to the AD Council, 535 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 2: but I think to most people, which is like, how 536 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 2: can we agree on on gun violence? Whether we agree 537 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 2: on guns, I think we agree a lot more on 538 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 2: how they should be used and finding a place where 539 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 2: we can agree to agree instead of agree to disagree. 540 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 2: So there's a number of pillars that we're focusing on, 541 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 2: but mental health is for now principle among them. 542 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: That's great, It's an amazing partnership when I've read about it, 543 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: you know, and of course we're also close to AD Council. 544 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: We hope we play our part, you know, to supporting 545 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: their gender. Everybody's our gender. One more question here in 546 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: this area, how does success look like for mission driven storytelling? 547 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure we're not talking necessary about watts. 548 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: I mean warts can help, you know, to bring awareness 549 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: and reach seeing a cultural shift. What could be the outcome, 550 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: you know, to say that was successful, that wasn't so successful. 551 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 2: I think the outcome for the AD Council in particular 552 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 2: is to create shows, movies, documentaries that stir the conversation 553 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 2: in the direction that it intends, which is, how do 554 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 2: we move things to a better place by creating a 555 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 2: more scaled awareness, by creating more skilled awareness of the 556 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 2: resources that are available, by normalizing the conversation. You know, 557 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 2: we talked about drunk driving a lot the Plate Against 558 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 2: Drinking and Driving, and you know, all of the great 559 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 2: work that so many organizations did, including AD Council, around 560 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 2: people not you know, not drinking and driving and friends 561 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 2: not letting friends drive drunk. But one of the most 562 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 2: impactful moments in that awareness was in the show Cheers 563 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 2: where Norm was going to leave and Sam the bartender 564 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 2: took his keys, right, you can't drive, I'm going to 565 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 2: take your keys. Because it normalized is it in a 566 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 2: medium that felt very comfortable and familiar. So I think 567 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 2: success will be measured by do we get an audience, 568 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 2: does that audience move in a direction towards positivity through that, 569 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,720 Speaker 2: you know, audience and you know, awards, Like you said, 570 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 2: that's not what drives anybody. I don't think, certainly, not 571 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 2: in this equation. But you're right to say that awards 572 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 2: make a difference when they come because it creates much 573 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 2: more awareness. 574 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: I crossed the fingers for a lot of great outcome, 575 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: and I'm really looking forward to see that, saying you 576 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: work happening. Let's look into the future for a second. 577 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: You know, imagine Sugar twenty three in the year of 578 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: twenty thirty. So in five years time or less, do 579 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 1: you want to be known more as a Hollywood company 580 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 1: that worked with brands or as a place where brands 581 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: became Hollywood. 582 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 2: Well, I want to be known for doing good things, 583 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 2: doing good work, and doing it in a good way 584 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 2: with humanity and grace, which is a through line in 585 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 2: our business model. I think the legacy is one and 586 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 2: the same. Whether it's me bringing Hollywood to brands, or 587 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 2: me bringing brands to Hollywood, or certainly being a part 588 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,879 Speaker 2: of that, I'm not the only one doing it. If 589 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 2: we make great stories that move the world to a 590 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,399 Speaker 2: better place, that's what I want to be known for. 591 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 2: But I do believe that this is a moment in 592 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 2: time in the advertising industry and in a media industry 593 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 2: at large, that there needs to be a rebirth and 594 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 2: a revamp. I think no one argues that it's not 595 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 2: working as it used to on any side. So I 596 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 2: want to be known as the bridge, not one side 597 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 2: or the other. 598 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: And while you doing this, you're obviously wearing a couple 599 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,240 Speaker 1: of different hats, right, You're a producer, you're a CEO, 600 00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: founder and mentor an entrepreneur. What else? More importantly, if 601 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: you have to choose one of those heads, which one 602 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 1: would it be? 603 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 2: Wow? Well, my most important hat is being a father 604 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 2: and being a dad and being a husband. And I 605 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:18,760 Speaker 2: think the way that I try to lead a company 606 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 2: as a CEO and being a producer, you're really just 607 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 2: the CEO of an individual project, and you're an entrepreneur. 608 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 2: And by the way, I think those of us that 609 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 2: have kids feel like we're CEOs and employees and entrepreneurs 610 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 2: every day. Yeah, I think the hat that I like 611 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 2: to wear the most is the hat that lets me 612 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,439 Speaker 2: inspire others the most. And the way that I do that, 613 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 2: I think best is just by modeling it. It's the 614 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 2: same way that I always tell my son like or 615 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,959 Speaker 2: think about parenting that way for me. You can tell 616 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 2: your kid, or you can tell a colleague how to 617 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 2: do something, but most people were being told how to 618 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 2: do anything because we just have this predisposition against being 619 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 2: told to do anything. But when you see it happening, 620 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 2: when you replicate it happening, I think that's when you 621 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 2: can impact the real result. So I guess of all 622 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 2: of those hats, CEO is probably my favorite thing because 623 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 2: it puts me in a place of responsibility for others. 624 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 2: I think entrepreneur feels almost too self serving for me, 625 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 2: although certainly I consider myself entrepreneurial, but I think that 626 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 2: no person is able to do it alone. So what 627 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 2: I like about being a CEO is that my job 628 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 2: is really in service of other people, not myself. 629 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: And whatever had you choose, what I can say is 630 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 1: not just based on today's conversation, because we know each 631 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: other for some time now. You're an amazing person with 632 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: an amazing story behind. So thank you so much for 633 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 1: sharing this with me and the audience today. Mike, is 634 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,320 Speaker 1: there any other topic which we missed that you feel 635 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 1: it's important to mention? 636 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 2: No, none at this moment. I appreciate that. I just 637 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:11,280 Speaker 2: want to say that what you have created has created 638 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 2: possibility for me. You've also been a bridge between the 639 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 2: worlds that have always been colliding and need to coalesce. 640 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 2: So it's really an honor to be part of this incredible, 641 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 2: ambitious dream of yours in any form and experiencing what 642 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 2: you have built firsthand is amazing, and to be able 643 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 2: to talk to you one on one like always is 644 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 2: also inspiring. So I'm deeply grateful for the opportunity. 645 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 1: Michael. Thank you so much also for reminding all of 646 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: us that the future of marketing may not look like 647 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 1: an ad at all, but more like a story you 648 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: know worth remembering. Thank you for bringing this and your 649 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 1: vision to our audience and to everybody out there. Keep 650 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: telling both stories, keep challenging old models, and keep turning 651 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,319 Speaker 1: possibilities into reality. I see you soon back here at 652 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: Possible Now. Thank you, Thank you, Thanks for tuning in everyone. 653 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: Once again. I'm your host, Christian Mohre. If you have 654 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: a question or suggestion to me, reach out send me 655 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: d M on LinkedIn. If you're curious to learn more 656 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 1: about Possible, sign up for our newsletter, or if you 657 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: want to join us at the Possible Show in Miami 658 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: visit Possible event dot com. Possible Now is a co 659 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: production of iHeartMedia and Possible. Our executive producers are Ryan 660 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: Martz and Yasmin Melndez. Our supervising producer is Meredith Barnes. 661 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Colleen Lawrence Mack from our programming team. 662 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: Our theme music is composed by Anthony Keatacoli. For more 663 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,840 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart app Purple Podcast, or 664 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.