1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Couric and this is next question. 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: When Gina Rosera walked into our podcast studio, I have 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: to be honest, I was stunned by her beauty. She 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: was wearing a gray Kashmir sweater, black jeans with a 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: simple silver necklace, and she had a regal, almost otherworldly quality. 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: She also had a very unpretentious easiness about her. But 7 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: behind all of this is a pretty extraordinary life story, 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: which she writes about in her new memoir called Horse Barbie. 9 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 2: America still needs to see more stories about what it 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 2: truly means to be trans and not just one type 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 2: of representation. You know, for eight years passing as a 12 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 2: sist model to knowing that we need to tell more 13 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 2: varied stories because I think that's when we really fully 14 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:56,319 Speaker 2: show the humanity of it. 15 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: Gina describes herself as a little femboy growing up in 16 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: Manila in the Philippines, and she got very emotional talking 17 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: about the unconditional love of her parents, especially her mother, 18 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: and what it was like for so many years being, 19 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: as she called it, both visible yet invisible, as she 20 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: kept her true identity a secret. We'll talk with her 21 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: about going stealth for so many years, terrified she would 22 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: be discovered and lose everything. 23 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 3: Would you like a chair? You sure? I feel bad? 24 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 3: You can get us you sure? 25 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, okay. I am super excited to be 26 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: here with you, Gina Rossero, to talk about your memoir 27 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: Horse Barbie, and really talk about your life, because to 28 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: say it is an extraordinary life, I think is a 29 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: massive understatement. Before we talk about the content of your 30 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: book and your story, I just wanted to ask you 31 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: a bit about the process of writing it. Yeah, As 32 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: someone who recently wrote a memoir, I'm curious what it 33 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: was like for you to chronicle your entire life. 34 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 2: I wrote this during the pandemic, and it was two 35 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 2: years of writing. And it's just that process of getting 36 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 2: in my space from nine to three o'clock. 37 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:31,239 Speaker 4: I'm a morning creative. 38 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 2: By three pm, there's nothing like I'm quite literally exhausted 39 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 2: and I need to just completely chill down. 40 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 3: You're tapped out. 41 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 2: I'm tapped out, And I was doing this for two years. 42 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: I would listen to a podcasts, I would read a book, 43 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: or light up a candle, have ats, or read a 44 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: little page of another person's memoir, you know, and just 45 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 2: getting into it and I'm sure you know this. But 46 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 2: in that process where I could feel that I'm sort 47 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,679 Speaker 2: of entering a different world or I'm levitating, I knew 48 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: there's something and I would feel that when I would 49 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 2: get to that zone and I would snap out of 50 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: it and look at the thing that I wrote, It's 51 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 2: almost magic, you know. 52 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 4: I enjoy being there. 53 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 2: So I think that's what kept me going back for 54 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 2: two years every day ninety three. 55 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 1: Wow, that takes a lot of discipline. 56 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 4: Yeah. 57 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: When I wrote my book, a lot of people said 58 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: why now, So I'm curious why now? For you, at 59 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: this stage in your life, did you feel you wanted 60 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: to write a memoir because you told your story to 61 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: the world and a Ted Talk in twenty fourteen, did 62 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: you think, gosh, I want to do more than a 63 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: ten minute Ted talk. My story is more complex and 64 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: interesting than that. 65 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. 66 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: I went from being stealth as a fashion model, where 67 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: the industry didn't know my model agent did not know 68 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: I was trands right, I was hiding. I was living 69 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: this too realities. I went from being stealth to TED 70 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 2: talk to United Nations to traveling the world advocating for 71 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 2: trans writes, and it felt like I was missing that 72 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 2: in between. 73 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 4: I didn't get a. 74 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 2: Chance to process that in between, and writing this book 75 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 2: was my process to unpack a lot more. I didn't 76 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: write it chronological and really went straight to my time 77 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 2: in New York City when I was a model, because 78 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: I felt like, if I'm gonna do this, which is 79 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 2: this big task, I felt like, let me focus, and 80 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 2: I think the most difficult part in my journey, which 81 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 2: is crazy because I was modeling, but it was also 82 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 2: the most traumatic, you know, in my life. 83 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: In fact, the book starts with you in a John 84 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: Legend music video in two thousand and five and the 85 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: anxiety you felt. Honestly, I felt anxiety just reading those pages, 86 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: worried and so concerned that you would be found out, 87 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: and how agonizing that was. Yeah, why did you want 88 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: to start with that? Oh? 89 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 4: Give me gooseba? 90 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 2: I think it represented a lot of things, a lot 91 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 2: of things in my journey. But there's a lot of 92 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 2: magical coincidence in the book. In that beginning of that story, 93 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 2: the title of the song itself you know, which is 94 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 2: now who is She? And then the lyrics that he 95 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: was singing to me during my part of the music 96 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 2: video was just incredibly like magical coincidence that he's asking 97 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: me who I am. I was so visible, but I 98 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: was also invisible, consciously invisible at the same time, while 99 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 2: at the same time feeling sexy, feeling myself, feeling like 100 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 2: my dream, but at the same time knowing this conversation 101 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: that's in my head and that moment where I need 102 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 2: to be careful, but I also need to do good 103 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 2: so I could really continue this job. It really just 104 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 2: encapsulates a lot of you know, what the book is about, 105 00:05:58,960 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 2: you know. 106 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: And anxiety of being who you are privately but not 107 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: who you are publicly. 108 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 2: All of those things happening at the same time. You know, 109 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 2: this was a dream that I've had growing up in 110 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 2: the Philippines, and it was a dream come true. But 111 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 2: that you know, little femboy that who I am in 112 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 2: the Philippines thinking like I can't believe this is happening. 113 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 4: I'm actually doing this. But then some. 114 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: Parts of me really wants to just like get me 115 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: out of here. I cannot continue doing this, you know, because. 116 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 3: It can't keep living a lie. 117 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,239 Speaker 4: Basically, like to think of a very complicated woman. 118 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 1: You know, let's talk about your childhood, because I loved 119 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: reading about it. It was so evocative with your siblings 120 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 1: and walking into your house and smelling clorox on the 121 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: linoleum floors, and then walking a little further and seeing 122 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: your dad fixing dinner while your mom was at work. 123 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: You know, I don't think at the time in the 124 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 2: Philippines there's no such thing as considered middle class. You know, 125 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 2: it's just the beginning. I mean, my mom was working, 126 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 2: but I definitely know at the end of the month, 127 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 2: we're always running into like who do we borrow money 128 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 2: from to, you know, to put food on the table. 129 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: You know, we're always running out of money for sure. 130 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 2: So my mom was working, my dad would stay at home. 131 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 3: Dad so which is very unusual for the time, right. 132 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you know, Philippines is a very long history 133 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: of matriarchal society, but also in the context of you know, 134 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,559 Speaker 2: very patriarchal you know, control as well. But the woman 135 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: runs the country like small businesses are run by women. 136 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 2: My mom is a very strong woman. So definitely, I 137 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 2: at the time, I didn't see it like as the 138 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 2: reverse role. It's just some obviously I was young. There's 139 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: no critical analysis. 140 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 4: I knew. 141 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 2: I knew my mom goes to work and then my 142 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: dad stay at home, and he's the best stay at 143 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 2: home dad, you. 144 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: Know, except when he drank, and then things got a 145 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: little hairy, very very and it was hard for him. 146 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: It was hard for him to have even if it's 147 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: a matriarchical society, it was clear from your writing that 148 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: wasn't easy having your mom as the breadwinner for him, right. 149 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: You know, I have not spoken so much about my dad, 150 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 2: and this book was the first time really like talking 151 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 2: about it. Even in my ted talk I shared obviously 152 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 2: the support and the love of my mom, and this 153 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 2: book was actually the first one where I was really, 154 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: you know, able to process what that was. But certainly 155 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 2: this book was my first time to really remember a 156 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 2: lot of the complication, you know, the relationship with my 157 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 2: dad because I always remember, you know, being taken you 158 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 2: know by him at the wet market and going every 159 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: day taking me to you know, learn I think in 160 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 2: some way I learned how to be comfortable in the kitchen. 161 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 2: I love cooking because of my dad, because of that 162 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 2: bonding that we had, right I mean, every day at 163 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 2: six pm we would go to Guadalupe Public Market and 164 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 2: it's known to be like the best chef in the neighborhood. Actually, 165 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 2: it would get hired to cook in a fiesta, you know, 166 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: But then it's fiesta, there's drinking, and he would come 167 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 2: home drinking. Maybe that feeling of guilt that he wasn't 168 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 2: the provider took its tall and I think it's expressed 169 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 2: in that very violent. 170 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 3: Rage, Gina. 171 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: Why don't you read a passage from your book all 172 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: about your childhood, Manila. 173 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 4: Sure? 174 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 2: In all there were six of us, my mother, my father, 175 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 2: my two sisters, my brother, and me living in what 176 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 2: was effectively a nine x twelve foot room, separated from 177 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 2: our neighbors by a flimsy plywood wall. Whenever it rained 178 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: too hard, the house would flood and we would have 179 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 2: to use wooden dining chairs to elevate our beds. We 180 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: also had to keep a watchful eye for the crafty 181 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 2: jumping rats who liked to steal pieces of our marinated 182 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 2: pork casino or slice of spam that had been left 183 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 2: on the table, ferrying them back to the places unknown 184 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: as they squeaked with the delight of their pillage. 185 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 3: We'll be right back, and we're back. 186 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: I know you write about when you were five or 187 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: six years old and you had an epiphany. Can you 188 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: share that part of the book with us? 189 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 2: Standing there in front of the mirror, I started to 190 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 2: take off my T shirt, which had a print of 191 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 2: one of the animated robots from the show Voltage five, 192 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: so I could step into the shower. But right before 193 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 2: I was about to slip out of it, while the 194 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 2: collar was still around the top of my head, I 195 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 2: paused and looked at my bare face. There was a 196 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 2: presence in it. It was speaking to me out of nothingness. 197 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 2: The oversized shirt had flattened the top of my hair, 198 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: the fabric draving behind me like a veil all the 199 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: way to the floor below. As I swayed gently from 200 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: side to side, my shirt moved like actual, real long 201 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 2: hair would, brushing against my shoulders. In a powerful moment 202 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 2: of recognition, it is my long hair, I whispered to myself. 203 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 2: I'm a girl. 204 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about when you first 205 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: had this feeling. 206 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 2: That was probably the first time where I felt that recognition. 207 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 2: And when people say, like, what are your early memories, 208 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 2: I'd like to think that that's the thing that's kept 209 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 2: coming up because it was so strong. That's the one 210 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 2: that was so significant to me. And to see that 211 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: in the mirror, the reflection at such a young age, 212 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 2: that that knowledge that like, this is who I am 213 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 2: and saying it first to myself. 214 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 4: Was powerful. 215 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: I think many trans people I've talked to say from 216 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: a very early age they felt not comfortable and their bodies, 217 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: not comfortable in their skin, that something was wrong. Did 218 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: you sense that even before you had that moment in 219 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: the mirror. 220 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, trans people, especially young trans people, we know. You know, 221 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: it's we know that truth and how powerful it is. 222 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 2: It becomes uncomfortable when we go outside. You know, there 223 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 2: are immediate surrounding or safe spaces or neighborhoods or communities 224 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 2: that doesn't accept it. You know, that's when it becomes uncomfortable. 225 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 2: Or the early messages that we receive about who were 226 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,719 Speaker 2: supposed to be, that's when it becomes uncomfortable. But the 227 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 2: truth of that recognition is very present to every single 228 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 2: young trans person. I knew it happened to me, and 229 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 2: you know the places when they travel, when they talk 230 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 2: to trans youth and then their family. It's very early 231 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 2: when you at a very early age. 232 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated how different it is in the Philippines in 233 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: terms of the way transgender people and transculture in general 234 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: is treated and seen. 235 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 3: You write. 236 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: When I was growing up, Catholicism and trans beauty pageants 237 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: inspired equal fanaticism. Families would go straight from mass to 238 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 1: watching the Supera Serena trans pageants on TV back at home. 239 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: No one really saw this as a paradox. It was 240 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: just part of our unique cultural blend. That is so 241 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: wild and so fascinating to me that this conservative Catholic 242 00:13:55,480 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: country has a very expansive view of gender and a 243 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: very accepting view of gender in general. 244 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: I'd like to say, I want to offer I guess 245 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 2: more nuanced context here. 246 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,239 Speaker 4: Acceptance is a very very big word. 247 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: Right, tell me about sort of why it is celebrated. 248 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: And you were a fem boy, yes, and you talk 249 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: about sort of the way you walked and it never 250 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: felt like you were full of shame for who you were, 251 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: and that is I think a pretty foreign concept here 252 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: in the United States. 253 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, shame is a big component, especially when they moved here. 254 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: But growing up you know that culture that we have, 255 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 2: it's very embedded in our culture. 256 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 4: Gender fluidity. 257 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 2: We don't have he or she in our language, so 258 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 2: it's very much embedded in our culture, pre colonial in 259 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 2: the Philippines, but because it's so embedded in our culture, 260 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 2: colonial times and then Catholic system, you know, sort of 261 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 2: took over in the Philippines all over the Philippines and 262 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 2: then instituted this thing called Catholic Fiesta celebration, which is 263 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 2: year round. But during those Fiesta celebrations, which is a 264 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 2: Catholic celebration, the main event for everybody to go see 265 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: is transgender beauty pageants, where the whole family watches it, 266 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 2: you know, and it's just part of how we celebrate 267 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 2: it because it's been embedded in our culture, you know, 268 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: and that became my job when I was fifteen. 269 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 4: There's a pageant. 270 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 2: Almost every single day all over the Philippines during the 271 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 2: month of May. 272 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: And growing up in that environment, did it make you 273 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: feel much more comfortable with your early gender fluidity and 274 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: the fact that you know that you carried yourself like 275 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: a girl and not like a boy. And can you 276 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: explain sort of your mom watching you, You describe her, 277 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: you know, radiantly watching you with so much pride. There 278 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: was never any kind of conflict for her. 279 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly she had questions, especially as we've gotten closer 280 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,359 Speaker 2: in our relationship, you know, and our women to women conversations. 281 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: She've had questions, but at that time, growing up, I 282 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 2: wouldn't even say, like it's a power, you know, it's 283 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 2: so easy for me. 284 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 4: It's the power of representation. 285 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 2: It's cultural, you know, it's so embedded in our it's 286 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 2: in our language, it's in our every society. I like 287 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 2: to say that trans people are culturally mainstream visible in 288 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 2: the Philippines. I also again recognize how lucky I am 289 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 2: to have, you know, mom, even my dad who fully 290 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 2: accepted me and loved me, not one resistance to to 291 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 2: it all. And I guess it's love, you know, I 292 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 2: guess you know, my mom truly just loved me. That 293 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: that's my mom and my dad just somehow found that 294 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 2: in them to accept me and love me. 295 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: When you were nineteen, you went to Thailand to get 296 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: gender affirmation surgery and your mom came with you, again 297 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: an example of how incredibly supportive she was to you. 298 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: Can you talk about that experience with your mom? 299 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 4: Just take an excuse me? 300 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, you know, I'm. 301 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 2: I wouldn't be here without the love of my mom, 302 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 2: you know, going with me to Thailand and to go 303 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 2: through that. 304 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 4: You know, my mom is super Catholic still and I 305 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 4: can't question her Bible. She would hang up. 306 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 2: The phone, but the love that she that she hasn't support, 307 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 2: never questioned who I am going, you know, a Catholic 308 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 2: mother supporting her trans daughter fully. 309 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 4: I mean we went to we went to have an 310 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 4: irreversible surgery in a suburb where nobody spoke English, and 311 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 4: she was like, I'm coming with you. 312 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 2: I will hold your hand, give you my rosary before 313 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 2: you go into you know, your operation, and to be there. 314 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 2: It was exactly what I needed, you know. And it 315 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 2: was obviously a big decision. Lots of fear going through 316 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 2: my head in what my life would it would have 317 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 2: been if I didn't have the support and love of 318 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 2: my mom. 319 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: Particularly you also have or had a trans mom, Tiger Lily, 320 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 1: a woman who would become your lifelong friend and mentor. 321 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: You met her when you were fifteen years old, So 322 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: tell us about the role she played in your life. 323 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 2: Ohger Lily, I just called her, you know, on the 324 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 2: way here. 325 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 4: We speak all the time. You know, I've known. 326 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 3: She's still in the Philippines. 327 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 2: She's still in the Philippines. I've known Tiger Little since 328 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 2: I was fifteen. You know another woman that changed my life. 329 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 2: I was fifteen when I met her saw something in me. 330 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 2: She asked me to join my first pageant, and that 331 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 2: pageant that I shared called Super Syrena, which is this 332 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 2: televised pageant. 333 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 4: I remember, I was fifteen years old. I was still 334 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 4: in high. 335 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 2: School, and I remember just watching one of the finals 336 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 2: of this pageant. I was still in school watching it. 337 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: It was amazing seeing all the girls dreaming, you know, 338 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 2: but also not vocalizing that I want to be like them. 339 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 2: And little did I know a week a week and 340 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 2: a half later, I would meet Tiger Lily and I 341 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 2: would join trans pageant. Somehow she saw something in me. 342 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 2: She made me try on the swimsuit. I felt, you know, sexy, 343 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 2: you know where wearing that two piece Anian swimsuit. And 344 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 2: she saw the confidence. She made me join that pageant, 345 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 2: and I, you know, the woman that I was seeing 346 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 2: on television was in that competition. I beat all of them, 347 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: like it was like a fantasy world. And she took 348 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 2: me on, you know, and then our life journey together 349 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 2: has been you know, magical, I'd say, and she kind of, 350 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: you know, she became my other mother. She was my 351 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 2: chosen mother. She was my best friend. She was also 352 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 2: my pageant manager. 353 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: All at once, I wondered about your mom moving to 354 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: America when you were still pretty young. You decided to 355 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: join your mom in California. Was after you won the 356 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 1: Miss Gay Universe pageant in two thousand. That was a 357 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: huge deal for people who may not be familiar with 358 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: the different pageants, that's that's a major major deal. 359 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the biggest And for me to I 360 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 2: won that, that's such a young age and I was 361 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: sixteen about to turn seventeen. I reached the top at 362 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 2: such a young age, became a pageant diva, making a 363 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 2: lot of money, the most popular trans pajiant queen. And 364 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 2: to win that big one was it was the biggest moment, 365 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 2: you know, and that just solidified my legacy in the 366 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 2: pageant culture. My mom one day called me and she said, 367 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: you know, your Green carpetition came through. You're now moving 368 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 2: to the US. And initially I said no to her 369 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 2: because I was a pageant diva. You know, it's a 370 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 2: pageant queen in the Philippines. You know, I'm making so 371 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 2: much money, you know, all of that thing as a 372 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 2: young you. 373 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 4: Know, pageant queen is an overachiever. 374 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 2: But then when she came back to me and she said, 375 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 2: you know, when you moved to the US, you could 376 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 2: change your name and gender marker and your legal documents. 377 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 4: And that did it for me. 378 00:21:55,040 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 2: And as a seventeen year old trans Philippe that's a 379 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 2: young immigrant seventeen. 380 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 4: A culture shock. 381 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 2: That was the biggest culture shock from I mean, the 382 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 2: first question I asked my mom was the transpageants, Like, 383 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: there's no transpageants here. But somehow I met this model 384 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 2: who used to model in New York City. She said, 385 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: if you really want to do this, you have to 386 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 2: move to New York City. And I was like, okay, 387 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 2: I'm going to move to New York City. And because 388 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: of that thought it opened up that whole floodgate again 389 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 2: of wanting to be a model. 390 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 4: I wanted to. 391 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 2: Pursue it, but the fear is always there that you know, 392 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 2: anyone could out me and it would destroy people's career 393 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 2: like it happened to It's well documented, it happened to 394 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 2: so many trans women, trans particularly trans woman of color, 395 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 2: that the moment they got out there, they were done, 396 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 2: you know, discarded. So you have this ambition to be 397 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: so visible, right whether on Times Square, Billboard or doing 398 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 2: a commercial. You want to do that, but there's risk, 399 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 2: the bigger the job, the bigger the paranoia that I 400 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 2: was going through, And honestly, right now, even speaking to 401 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 2: you in this voice, in this tone, I used to 402 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 2: always calculate the little tones of how I speak, how 403 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 2: I talk to someone. Am I drinking enough, you know, 404 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 2: water so that my voice is more fluid? You know? 405 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 4: Like these are the kind of things that was going 406 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 4: through my head. 407 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: And you talked about like would someone see your Adams 408 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: Sapple during the making of that John Legend video? And 409 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: then when someone asked to talk to you, you were 410 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: terrified that you had been found out. 411 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I felt like I was a spy. I felt 412 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 2: like I was in a clandestine operation every day of 413 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 2: my life. And I think now it makes sense why 414 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 2: I like spy genres. 415 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 4: Because why I connect with them, because I really felt 416 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 4: like I was. I have to put up this this cover. 417 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 3: We'll be right back. 418 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter Every morning with a 419 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and 420 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter 421 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. 422 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 3: And we're back. 423 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: What made you finally say screw it? I am going 424 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: to tell the world who I am and I'm going 425 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: to tell my story. 426 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 2: There's so many moments, I guess because I was in 427 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 2: that process, there were so many little hints that maybe 428 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 2: I want to do it? When am I going to 429 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 2: do it? Questioning and over analyzing what could happen in 430 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 2: my career? It manifested in a physical condition I had. 431 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 2: Certainly I was very depressed. I know that the anguish, 432 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 2: emotional anguish, the mental anguish of having to always edit 433 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 2: my story. 434 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 3: And always being on guard. That's stressful. 435 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: I had a very crazy moment of eczema that manifested 436 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 2: in my body. Its just somehow it took over my 437 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 2: body that I got to the point that I thought 438 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 2: I'll never be able to wear somesuit. There's still some 439 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,360 Speaker 2: marks here and there, and it's now a present thing. 440 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 2: When I get stressed, it comes up. And I listened 441 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 2: to that. But that was the big outbreak where it 442 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 2: was all over my body. And it took a woman 443 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 2: dermatologists who sat me down and said, after giving me 444 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 2: all the steroids in everything, nothing was working. And she said, 445 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 2: what is going on emotionally, spiritually, psychologically, you need to 446 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 2: listen to whatever that's going on. Didn't tell her obviously 447 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 2: that I'm transfer I knew exactly what she's talking about, 448 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 2: Like my truth was quite literally coming out of my 449 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 2: body wanting to come out. 450 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 4: So I listened to that. 451 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 2: My partner and I went to toulw, Mexico for my 452 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 2: thirtieth birthday, and somehow, you know that magical moment when 453 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 2: when he asked me what this s turning thirty means 454 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 2: to me? Somehow it felt so pure in that moment 455 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 2: to say it. You know, I was entering, you know, 456 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 2: I was turning thirty. I couldn't take it anymore. I 457 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 2: had to, you know, tell my story. And I somehow, 458 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 2: once I made that decision, it was as if nothing 459 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 2: could stop me. I wanted to share my story in 460 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 2: the biggest possible platform that I could think of. I 461 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 2: went from the decision of again being so ashamed, to like, 462 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 2: I'm gonna come out on a Ted stage. 463 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 3: Well does that what was the reaction? 464 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 4: You know, this is twenty fourteen. 465 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 2: I mean looking back and talk about timing in that moment, 466 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 2: I mean, this was I gave the Ted Talk March 467 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, and that June Laverne Cox on the cover 468 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 2: of Time magazine and twenty fourteen was something in the zeitgeist. 469 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 1: In late twenty fourteen, after your Ted talk, you traveled 470 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 1: to the Philippines to lobby in favor of trans rights 471 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: in front of the legislature, but you learned that not 472 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: much had change in the Philippines. 473 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 2: What happened, Gina, Oh my god, that was talking about, 474 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 2: you know, humbling me in that moment. I was invited 475 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 2: to speak at this conference advocating for antidiscrimination policies but 476 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 2: also specifically transwrits, and you know, I was the guest 477 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 2: of honor speaking my story coming from America walking into 478 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 2: you know, the House of Representatives in the Philippines, and 479 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 2: that was with my transpant tiger Lily, and we were 480 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 2: there together. And as we were walking to the security 481 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 2: the security guard, I was looking self fabulous. 482 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 4: I felt like I was. 483 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 2: Having my Angelina Joly moment, you know, with my fabulous dress. 484 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 4: My friend made me feeling so confident. 485 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 2: And as I was walking in the security guard sir, sir, sir, 486 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 2: you need to go to the male section of the 487 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 2: security I was like just dumbfounded about that moment and 488 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 2: couldn't help it. I went full on snappy trans one 489 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 2: on one to that guy and just said, like, somebody 490 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 2: that looks like a woman, who speaks like a woman, 491 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 2: looks like a woman, she is a woman, you know, 492 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 2: And I just like pushed through and didn't even like 493 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 2: just ignored him. You know, there was a moment of like, 494 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 2: I need to follow through and like what he said. 495 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 2: But this is why I was invited here to speak 496 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,239 Speaker 2: about these things. I felt that in as much as 497 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 2: she has we're going to talk about trans writes, but 498 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 2: in the most basic thing of the security doesn't even 499 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 2: know how to communicate that in a space that should 500 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 2: have been right. You know, there's still a lot of 501 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 2: work that needs to be done, so well, I was 502 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 2: going to ask you about that. 503 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: It seems the best way for us to close out 504 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: this conversation is to talk about where we are with 505 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: trans issues today. 506 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 3: Gina. 507 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: It seems like a lot of progress was being made 508 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, and now we're experiencing 509 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: a major backlash. Laverne Cox recently said in twenty twenty three, 510 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: we're at the height of the backlash against trans visibility. 511 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: We have way more people who are educated about trans folks, 512 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: but there's also been a rigorous misinformation media machine. Why 513 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: do you think we are where we are today? 514 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 2: It's ongoing every day, you know, I'd say there's slayers. 515 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 2: I think one is power. I think that people empower, 516 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 2: particularly in the political right, sees the trans people does 517 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 2: not have that you know, same, I guess power pool 518 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 2: when it comes to organizing and you know, at least 519 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 2: a perception. So there's that component that like, oh, we 520 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 2: could attack this and easily demonize the people that is 521 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 2: the most misunderstood in America. So there's a component of power. 522 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 2: The conversation that I'm having with my fellow trans folks 523 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 2: is that freaking exhausted, you know, to feel that you're 524 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 2: the only one fighting for this fighting in this moment. 525 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 2: Why can we have the same support with marriage equality 526 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 2: was happening. Why is that systematic approach when marriage equality 527 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 2: was happening. Why can't we have that that kind of 528 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 2: exhaustion that we're feeling and speaking to each other? We 529 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 2: need more because we know this in history, have said it. 530 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 2: When they come for one group, they are coming for everybody. 531 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: I think another misunderstanding that I often hear and I'd 532 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: love you to clear it up for people is people 533 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: who are worried about children making big life choices. And 534 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: I always want to say, well, kids are not getting 535 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: gender affirming surgery when they're twelve thirteen, you know. But 536 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: a constant refrain I hear and read as this dialogue 537 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: continues is the concern that children are making permanent decisions 538 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: when they don't have the maturity to make those decisions. 539 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: And I wondered if you could address that gena for people. 540 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 2: Sure, I think I'd say every respected prominent medical institutions 541 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 2: have instituted these processes. 542 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 4: There was. 543 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 2: No resistance. It's been established for many many years. W 544 00:31:54,560 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 2: passed to American Pediotic Association that deals with children and America. 545 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 2: There's been well, well, well established for many many years. 546 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 2: The reason why the demonization of that misinformation is again 547 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 2: related to that power that I was talking about earlier, 548 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 2: because it's such an easy target. Kids, young kids. I 549 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 2: would remember when I was growing up, is that just 550 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 2: want to express right, there's nothing wrong in letting a kid, 551 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 2: you know, put a little nail polished and play. 552 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 4: It's play. Why can we allow kids to play and express. 553 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 4: It's all part of. 554 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 2: That, and it's been debunked many times that you know, 555 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 2: a young kid does not have to go through any 556 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 2: big medical decisions with the presence of their family, with 557 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 2: the support and the systematic approach in medical establishments until 558 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 2: they're ready to do it, which is you know, eighteen 559 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 2: sixteen years old. You know, with the guidance of a 560 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,719 Speaker 2: family member and a medical professional. 561 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: How do you fight this backlash? Do you you talk 562 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: about being tired of being an activist? I know that 563 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: when I did my documentary, I talked to some transactivists 564 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: who said, it's not really our job to educate you. 565 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: You know, this is why God created Google. On the 566 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: other hand, representation and conversation, I think can move the 567 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: ball forward. So how do we get to a place 568 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: of deeper understanding and acceptance. 569 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 2: I think the bigger conversation of equity. You know, I'm 570 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 2: a storyteller. I'm a media producer. I'm a storyteller at heart. 571 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 2: I think stories of trans people from so many different experiences, 572 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 2: so many different point of views, has to be told 573 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 2: by trans people, particularly even more powerful because it might 574 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 2: seem like it's an easy cop out answer that because 575 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,040 Speaker 2: when you see yourself and represent it, it creates. 576 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 4: But they. 577 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 2: It is obviously very exhausting to always talking about this, 578 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 2: to always to defend your humanity, to debate your existence. 579 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: It's almost as if I would have to defend being 580 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: a cis gender. Imagine that heterosexual female. 581 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, point of comparison, right, I mean imagine that, 582 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 2: you know, people would have a little bit more empathy 583 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 2: to really see through beyond this demonization of you know. 584 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 3: We get tired of talking about it incessantly. 585 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 2: As an artist, as a storyteller, and in this book 586 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 2: that I wrote, I dared myself to really unapologetically express 587 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 2: who I am, my stories, my hopes, my dreams, my vulnerability, 588 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 2: my playfulness, just like any other human being, just like 589 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 2: any other the sameness of what a trans person is 590 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 2: experiencing to a cist person is experiencing, as it should be. 591 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 1: So you did your ted talk in twenty fourteen, you 592 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: have this beautiful memoir in twenty twenty three. What do 593 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: you see yourself doing in the next decade? 594 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 2: You know, I think I want to honor the storyteller 595 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 2: in me, the artist and me. I want to direct more. 596 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 2: I directed, you know, a DOCU series with PBS about 597 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 2: Filipino America and frontline workers called Caretakers. They got Ammy 598 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 2: nominated and Glad Media or nominated, and the baselines, I 599 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 2: want to tell more story, whether it's I'm directing or 600 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,919 Speaker 2: acting in it or you know, there was a part 601 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,760 Speaker 2: of me for so long that because I was living stealth, 602 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 2: I wasn't really living up to like who I am fully, 603 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 2: and that's the anxiety filled person who just want to 604 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 2: achieve part of me. But now I looked at that 605 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 2: as a sense of Okay, this is my purpose now 606 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 2: is to tell more story, to create more story, to 607 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 2: create more to persent more work worlds that people have 608 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 2: not seen before. 609 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: Gina Rasero, it's been so fun talking to you and fascinating. 610 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: I know this is your first interview for the book. 611 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: How do you think it went? Were you happy? 612 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 4: You made me cry? That's for sure? 613 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: Then? 614 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 2: Ah, thank you so much, Thank you, Gina, thank you, 615 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 2: thank you, thank you for honoring me in this moment 616 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 2: to share this. I've been saying that I can't wait 617 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 2: to talk about it. It's been a long process and 618 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 2: here I am talking about it, crying, you know, laughing 619 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 2: and going through it and I'm sure there would be more, 620 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 2: and truly, truly, I appreciate you taking this time. 621 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: Thank you, love, I love the book, and I love 622 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: talking to you. And I hope a lot of people 623 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 1: not only love listening, but also love learning from your story. 624 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 4: Thank you. 625 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me, 626 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,800 Speaker 1: or want to share your thoughts about how you navigate 627 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: this crazy world reach out. You can leave a short 628 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,399 Speaker 1: message at six h nine five P one two five 629 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: five five, or you can send me a DM on Instagram. 630 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: I would love to hear from you. Next Question is 631 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive 632 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising 633 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adrianna Fazzio and 634 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 1: Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell, who also 635 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 1: composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode, 636 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up Call, 637 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app or visit 638 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me 639 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more 640 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or 641 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.