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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. We're heading

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Speaker 2: into the vault for an older episode of the show.

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Speaker 2: This was a Halloween episode we did called Anthology of Horror,

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Speaker 2: Volume nine, one of our long running series of Halloween

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Speaker 2: season episodes where we look at anthology TV series and

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Speaker 2: various things like that. I think in this one I

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Speaker 2: ended up talking about an episode of cole Check The Nightstalker.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, it's a pretty fun one. I believe this

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Speaker 1: is going to be This will have been our last

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Speaker 1: Anthology of Horror episode, but there's going to be a

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Speaker 1: spiritual successor to this series starting in just the next

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks, or next week or this week. We're

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Speaker 1: recording these intros ahead of time so we can get

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Speaker 1: a little lost in the time flow.

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Speaker 2: Oh by the way, this episode originally published October thirty first,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. Hope you enjoy.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. This is

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Speaker 1: Ruthless Rob Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And this is Corrosive Joseph McCormick and Happy Halloween.

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Speaker 1: That's right, we're continuing our Halloween tradition this year, or

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Speaker 1: it's been our Halloween tradition for several years now. Anthology

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Speaker 1: of Horror this is where we take We each take

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Speaker 1: an episode of a TV anthology series or something related

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Speaker 1: to this tradition, such as in the case of Joe's

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Speaker 1: selection this year, kind of like a Monster of the

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Speaker 1: Week episode, which which still close enough for our work,

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Speaker 1: and then we spend some science or contemplation out of it.

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Speaker 1: Before we switched over and started doing horror and sci

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Speaker 1: fi anthologies, we did the same treatment with creepy pastas

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Speaker 1: in the past. So that's what we do in this series,

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Speaker 1: take a little horror, a little sci fi, and spin

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Speaker 1: it out, squeeze it out, and see what kind of

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Speaker 1: science we can get out of it. However, I think

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Speaker 1: this is likely the final installment of Anthology of Horror.

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Speaker 1: Here on stuff to blow your mind, and mainly because

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Speaker 1: ever since we started doing Weird House Cinema, the premise

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Speaker 1: has felt like a little bit redundant, like we get

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Speaker 1: to talk about a weird movie every week, so maybe,

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Speaker 1: at least in my case, it feels a little less

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Speaker 1: special to have this Horror Anthology episode we do every year,

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Speaker 1: and we've also covered a lot of great selections already,

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if listeners out there have strong

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Speaker 1: feelings about this right end, and we will consider now.

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Speaker 2: I know you suggested that this would be Anthology of

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Speaker 2: Horror the Final Chapter, but if we're going by Friday

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Speaker 2: the thirteenth sequel naming conventions, that would have actually been

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Speaker 2: the fourth Anthology of Horror episode we did, which was

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Speaker 2: many years ago. Now this is the ninth, is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Which would that would put us in Jason Goes to

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Speaker 2: Hell territory? So this really should be Anthology of Horror

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Speaker 2: Part nine Robin, Joe go to Hell.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, hopefully we can deliver Jason Goes to Hell

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Speaker 1: quality level or above in this episode. All right, Joe,

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Speaker 1: what do you have for us? I teased it a

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Speaker 1: little bit, but what is your selection for this year?

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Speaker 2: Okay? So, not too long ago, on some episode or other,

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Speaker 2: it came up that I had never seen any of

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Speaker 2: the classic American TV series Colchak The Night Stalker, which

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Speaker 2: was originally broadcast on ABC in nineteen seventy four. I

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Speaker 2: think it ran seventy four to seventy five only for

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Speaker 2: one season, though I think there are around twenty episodes

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Speaker 2: or so. And my ignorance of this show was so

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Speaker 2: deep that I didn't even realize it had a supernatural element.

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Speaker 2: I thought, I guess this was just based on the name.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was some kind of gritty crime show.

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Speaker 2: I think because I night Stalker. I thought about that

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Speaker 2: serial killer and I was like, okay, it's like a

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Speaker 2: serial killer show. But no, no, no, it's so much

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Speaker 2: more delightful than that. This show is essentially a precursor

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Speaker 2: to The X Files, where instead of FBI agents Malter

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Speaker 2: and Scully, we have a fast talking, rascally Chicago newspaper

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Speaker 2: reporter named Carl Kolchak played by Darren McGavin, whom I

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Speaker 2: knew primarily as the dad, the guy who gets his

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Speaker 2: son a BB gun in a Christmas story.

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Speaker 1: Well, and of course that's a tremendous role by Darren

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Speaker 1: McGavin there as well, So if you only know him

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Speaker 1: for one role, like that's a good one to know

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Speaker 1: him from. You know, it was in tons of stuff.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, he's great in this, as I'll mention in

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Speaker 1: a bit, I think he's he's he's really holding the

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Speaker 1: show up on his shoulders.

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Speaker 2: Now, I think any episode of Kolchak the night Stalker

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Speaker 2: would count as an anthology entry because it had a

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Speaker 2: monster of the Week format. In each new kaper Cha

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Speaker 2: would begin by reporting on some weird crime, usually a

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Speaker 2: murder that baffles the narrow minded police detectives. Ah, you know,

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Speaker 2: the victim's teeth were all painted blue. What could this mean?

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Speaker 2: And eventually we discover it means that the deaths were

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Speaker 2: caused by a shape shifting wear tiger or something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the plot that you encounter in these episodes, it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be very formulaic. I think I watched a bunch

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Speaker 1: of these back in the nineties on either Sci Fi

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Speaker 1: or any probably sci Fi, and I remember liking it.

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Speaker 1: And one thing I also strongly remember about it is

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Speaker 1: it being kind of a cross generational hit. I have

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Speaker 1: vague memories that like, both my dad and my granddad

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Speaker 1: would be like cool with this show being on, because

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Speaker 1: you know, kids in the nineties we wanted to watch monsters,

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Speaker 1: or I wanted to watch monsters anyway. But the rest

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Speaker 1: of the show has a very traditional episodic gum shoe

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Speaker 1: feel to it. You know, it feels very classic television

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Speaker 1: in that regard. It's very much a product of its age,

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Speaker 1: but with this strange supernatural twist to it. And then

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Speaker 1: at the center of this you have just an incredibly fun,

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Speaker 1: fast talking and charismatic performance by Darren McGavin, and you

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Speaker 1: just can't help but love him. You can't help but

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Speaker 1: follow him, and you want to see what he does next.

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Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter if you're here for the monsters

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Speaker 1: or you didn't know monsters were going to occur, You're

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Speaker 1: gonna stick around and see where this goes.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the force of the main character's personality is really

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Speaker 2: the anchor of the show. And now I haven't seen

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Speaker 2: the whole series. I've only seen this one episode now

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Speaker 2: and then read about some others, but I'm going to

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Speaker 2: be watching more. I think it is interesting to compare

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Speaker 2: the dynamics of Kolchak to the show that it is

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Speaker 2: explicitly acknowledged to have inspired The X Files. I know,

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Speaker 2: I think Chris Carter has said Kulchak was an inspiration

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Speaker 2: on The X Files. So the X Files, the investigations

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Speaker 2: there are that the tone of them is largely based

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Speaker 2: on the tension between Molder the believer and Scully the skeptic,

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Speaker 2: whereas in Colchak there's just one investigator, so there are

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Speaker 2: not two characters to bounce ideas off each other and

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Speaker 2: act as foils for one another. It all has to

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Speaker 2: be there inside Darren McGavin, and there is a similar

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Speaker 2: tension within him, but it's different. It's not like part

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Speaker 2: of him is an idealistic true believer who just wants

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Speaker 2: aliens to be real, and another part is ruthlessly seeking

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Speaker 2: out hard evidence instead. I think the tension is between

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Speaker 2: Coolchak's personality versus his observations. So it seems to me

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Speaker 2: that the tension is that Kolchak is naturally a wily, sardonic,

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Speaker 2: no nonsense personality. He talks like a just the facts

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Speaker 2: kind of newsman, and he makes wry jokes about anything

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Speaker 2: that sounds unusual, not just monsters, but unfamiliar science concepts,

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Speaker 2: Like he makes jokes about the idea of rim sleep.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's like a guy in this episode who's

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Speaker 2: undergoing rim sleep, a scientist says, and he's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: is he remming right now? And there's like an inflection

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Speaker 2: on that that makes it sound funny, And then he

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Speaker 2: has the same kind of jokes about anything that's outside

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Speaker 2: of a very grounded, working class kind of scope of life.

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Speaker 2: So he makes jokes about the impossibility of pronouncing the

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Speaker 2: scientific names of plants, or about French food items, you know,

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Speaker 2: stuff like that. And yet at the same time he

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Speaker 2: puts the clues together and he does end up believing

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Speaker 2: that the murders are supernatural in nature, and then has

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Speaker 2: to convince other people. He has to convince his boss

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Speaker 2: at the newspaper, the police whatever, that it really was

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Speaker 2: a monster again this time, and not this other poor

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Speaker 2: guy who's being falsely accused of the crime.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a good summary of the energy here.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like Molder and Scully kind of have

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Speaker 1: like an forgive me if I if I'm not doing

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Speaker 1: justice to musical genres. They have kind of a shoegaze vibe,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like, I feel like Coulhak is jazz,

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Speaker 1: you know. Anyway, A couple of quick notes just about

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Speaker 1: people involved in this series. The main character was created

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Speaker 1: by Jeff Rice in his novel The Cool Track Papers,

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Speaker 1: and this was adapted before it was published into the

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Speaker 1: original nineteen seventy three TV movie That Kicked It All. Off.

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Speaker 1: It concerned vampire murders, and I think that's where we

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Speaker 1: get the night stalker thing. Also of note is that

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Speaker 1: this episode is directed by Gordon Hessler, who lived nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenty five through twenty fourteen. He directed nineteen seventy Scream

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Speaker 1: and Scream Again, which we talked about in Weird House Cinema.

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Speaker 1: M okay, And as far as the cast goes, you know,

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Speaker 1: if this were a weird House would go deeper. But

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Speaker 1: I will point out that we have the prolific Keenan Wynn,

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Speaker 1: who lived nineteen sixteen through nineteen eighty six, playing Captain

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Speaker 1: what mad Dog Joe in this and it's a pretty

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Speaker 1: fun role.

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Speaker 2: Yes, what do I know him from? I mean he

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Speaker 2: was in a lot of things. You probably know him

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Speaker 2: from Doctor Strangelove.

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Speaker 1: I think he was in Tarantula. I don't know, have

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Speaker 1: my notes in front of me, but he was very prolific.

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Speaker 1: He was in a lot of stuff.

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Speaker 2: But another big guest star in this movie, though you

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Speaker 2: don't see his face, it's covered by some fibrous material,

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Speaker 2: is Richard Keel, the guy who played Jaws in the

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Speaker 2: James Bond series.

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Speaker 1: Ah, he's just doing a basic big man monster role

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Speaker 1: in this.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, he's ega. He's a soggy ega in So,

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Speaker 2: to summarize the episode, it's called the Spanish Moss Murders,

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Speaker 2: and it starts with Kolchak intercepting a call in his

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Speaker 2: police radio to the scene of a murder in a

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Speaker 2: fancy French restaurant. He makes some joke about the wine

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Speaker 2: cellar of this restaurant having more than being worth more

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Speaker 2: than the entire gross domestic product of Paraguay, which I

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Speaker 2: looked that up and that would make it worth like

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Speaker 2: billions of dollars at the time, So I think that's

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Speaker 2: a little bit of an exaggeration. But anyway, the head

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Speaker 2: chef of this restaurant has been slain right in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the restaurant kitchen. His body's lying there on

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Speaker 2: the floor between the prep tables and all that. And

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Speaker 2: not only has he been killed, but his body was

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Speaker 2: found in a particularly gruesome state, with its chest cavity

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Speaker 2: crushed like a beer can. On top of that, there

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Speaker 2: is some kind of weird, wet vegetable matter scattered around

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Speaker 2: the crime scene, described by one character as quote green glop,

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Speaker 2: and the police sagely conclude that the plant matter must

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Speaker 2: be salad. They were in a restaurant after all.

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Speaker 1: All right, solid police work, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Rob you've seen more Culchak than me.

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Speaker 2: Is this a theme that like the police don't know

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Speaker 2: what they're doing and Colchak has to be the one

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Speaker 2: to figure everything out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I vaguely remember this being the case. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's like you need an outside thinker because you know

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Speaker 1: the police they're doing they're doing a good job. They're

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Speaker 1: you know, they're not incompetent in this show, but they're

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Speaker 1: used to dealing with normal crimes. Yeah, cold Shack's expertise

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Speaker 1: comes into play when we're dealing with supernatural crimes.

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Speaker 2: So Colchak is on the case. Through some crafty investigation

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Speaker 2: involving trickery and trespassing, Colchack starts to piece together a

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Speaker 2: perplexing set of facts connecting a number of different crimes.

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Speaker 2: Together people all crushed or killed by severe blunt force

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Speaker 2: trauma to the thorax, all with the same green glop

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Speaker 2: found around their bodies, and after a visit to a

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Speaker 2: local botanical garden, Kolchak is able to ascertain the origin

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Speaker 2: of the green glop. It is Spanish moss, which only grows.

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Speaker 2: He is told in hot and humid conditions nowhere around

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Speaker 2: Chicago outside of a greenhouse. And I have to make

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Speaker 2: a little observation. Spanish moss is not like usually wet

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Speaker 2: and soggy. So I think I don't know how much

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Speaker 2: experience the writers here had with actual Spanish moss, which

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Speaker 2: is consistently described in this more like they're talking about algae.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that is weird, isn't it. Yeah maybe they

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Speaker 1: just hadn't been really exposed to it. But yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't think of Spanish moss as being humid and wet

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Speaker 1: and drippy and gloppy and so forth.

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Speaker 2: It's actually rather dry and crispy. In fact, famously, I

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Speaker 2: know I was reading about there was one huge historical

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Speaker 2: fire that was started when some Spanish moss caught fire.

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Speaker 2: It was the Great Fire of nineteen oh one in Jacksonville, Florida,

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Speaker 2: which a huge fire that was started outside a factory

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Speaker 2: that was putting stuffing inside of upholstery for furniture, I think,

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Speaker 2: and the stuffing they were using was Spanish moss. There

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Speaker 2: were piles of it that I guess were sitting there

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Speaker 2: to dry or sitting out ready to be stuffed into things,

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Speaker 2: some of it caught fire and it caused this giant conflagration. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: back to Colchak, investigation of one victim leads him to

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Speaker 2: the victim's workplace, a university sleep laboratory, where the professor

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Speaker 2: and his assistants are running an experimental treatment on a

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Speaker 2: man with severe narcolepsy by keeping him in an induced coma.

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Speaker 2: Colchak learns that the murder victim was an assistant in

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Speaker 2: the last who was known for her clumsiness, one time,

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Speaker 2: nearly waking up their test subject when she knocked over

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Speaker 2: some apparatus in the room. Beyond that, other murder victims

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Speaker 2: seem to have some connection to a social group of

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Speaker 2: Cajun street musicians who are all originally from Louisiana Bayou

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Speaker 2: Country and have moved up to the Chicago area. Kolchak

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Speaker 2: learns from one of their associates the story of a

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Speaker 2: bogeyman figure from Bayou folklore known as Paramoulfay, or the

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Speaker 2: evil Father. All the Kajuns would joke to each other,

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Speaker 2: you better watch out or Paramoufay is going to get you,

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Speaker 2: and the stories go that Para Malfay has lived in

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Speaker 2: the swamp since long before the Cajuns arrived. He's wet,

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Speaker 2: he's covered in rot and festooned with Spanish moss from

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Speaker 2: head to toe. Mothers warn their children that if they

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Speaker 2: get out of line, paramoul Fay will squeeze the life

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Speaker 2: right out of them, and the only way to beat

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Speaker 2: him is to stab him with a steak from a

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Speaker 2: bayou gum tree. Kolchak gets another piece of the puzzle.

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Speaker 2: A prime suspect emerges in several of the murders, a

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Speaker 2: man named Languis who is known to have a grudge

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Speaker 2: against several of the victims, but he has a rock

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Speaker 2: solid alibi. He is the man who has been in

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Speaker 2: an induced coma in the sleep laboratory, so he's being

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Speaker 2: monitored twenty four to seven. There's no way he could

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Speaker 2: have done the murders because he never left the lab

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Speaker 2: he's been asleep. Finally, Coolchak pieces it all together. He

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Speaker 2: discovers the truth. The murders are being carried out by

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Speaker 2: the sleeping man, but not physically. He is dreaming people

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Speaker 2: to death. His experimental coma is preventing him from dreaming normally.

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Speaker 2: I guess the drug regimen that the scientists are giving

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Speaker 2: him is doing something to his ability to dream, and

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Speaker 2: so his dreams are escaping his mind and becoming a

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Speaker 2: physical entity in the form of the swamp monster paramou.

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Speaker 1: Fay sleep dream manifestation kind of a toolpa.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, and in the form of the bay U boogeyman

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Speaker 2: covered in Spanish moss that this sleep subject grew up

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Speaker 2: hearing about. So I guess presumably the monster in this

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Speaker 2: story could have been anything. It could have been whatever

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Speaker 2: it was that this man had in his mind. But

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Speaker 2: because this is the folklore he knows, it assumes this form.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of like Wes Craven's New Nightmare. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's an entity that could take any form. The form

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Speaker 2: it takes is the form you imagine, So it becomes

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Speaker 2: Freddy Krueger.

295
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Speaker 1: Yeah, or of course reminds one of Gozer as well,

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Speaker 1: choose the form of the destructor. Yes.

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Speaker 2: So Kolchak explains his theory to the police commander in

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Speaker 2: the sleep lab, to Mad Dog Captain mad Dog Keenan

299
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Speaker 2: Winn here, and the professor is ordered to wake up

300
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Speaker 2: the test subject in order to stop the mayhem. But

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Speaker 2: it doesn't work. Langua will not wake up, and instead

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Speaker 2: he dies Coolchak thinks that, well, that's tragic, but now

303
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Speaker 2: at least the trouble is over, until he discovers water

304
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Speaker 2: and Spanish moss in his desk drawers. He thinks that

305
00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,159
Speaker 2: there's like that the ceiling. The plumbing in the ceiling

306
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,840
Speaker 2: is leaking, and that's why there's water everywhere. But nope,

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Speaker 2: Paramoufay has been stalking around his desk in the newspaper office,

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Speaker 2: and this seems to mean that Paramoufay has escaped his host.

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Speaker 2: Even though the dreamer is dead, the dream lives on independently,

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Speaker 2: and now the dream knows the reporter is on to him.

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Speaker 2: In the end, Coolchak has to confront the monster by

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Speaker 2: tracking it to the sewers and staking it with a

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Speaker 2: Bayou gum tree branch that he stole from the botanical garden.

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Speaker 2: The sewer confrontation, I feel like, is a little anti

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Speaker 2: climactic for me because you never get a great, great

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Speaker 2: look at the monster. He's kind of a big, shaggy

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Speaker 2: vegetable sasquatch played by Richard Keel.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the lighting's pretty good, so it's not unforgiving,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, it's a bit dark, and I mean it's

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Speaker 1: obviously not the most robust monster costume ever committed to film.

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Speaker 2: But I love the concept of the monster, even if

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Speaker 2: it's not the most impressive looking thing I've ever seen.

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Speaker 2: The idea of this shaggy creature dreamed into existence and

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Speaker 2: covered head to toe in Spanish moss, just a shambling

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Speaker 2: mess of plant matter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's a It's an admirable plot. It

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Speaker 1: all fit, all the pieces fit together, and then at

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Speaker 1: the same time it feels wild and weird enough that

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Speaker 1: it could have been a symbol via like an improv

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Speaker 1: theater audience shout out plot elements, like all right, what

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Speaker 1: do we have? Okay here, I hear rim sleep, I

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Speaker 1: hear Cajun boogeyman, I hear French cuisine. Okay, let's put

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Speaker 1: all this together now.

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Speaker 2: I was really hoping to discover that Paramolfa would be

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Speaker 2: a real piece of Bayou lore that I could dig into,

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Speaker 2: but alas I came up shore on this, all the

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Speaker 2: sources I could find that looked solid at all seem

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Speaker 2: to trace back to the Culchak episode. There are some

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Speaker 2: websites that claim paramol Fay is an independent folk tale,

340
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Speaker 2: but they don't cite any sources and they're just kind

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Speaker 2: of websites, so I don't know. I couldn't find anything

342
00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,320
Speaker 2: that looks solid that says this is an actual story

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Speaker 2: that goes anywhere back further than the TV show. So

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Speaker 2: I can't say for certain, but I will say my

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Speaker 2: best judgment is it looks to me like this creature

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Speaker 2: was invented for the show, though I think it may

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Speaker 2: be based on existing folk beliefs. There are many monsters

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Speaker 2: of the swamp. One example that it could be based

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Speaker 2: on would be like the rugaroo, sort of a Francophone

350
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Speaker 2: American werewolf legend.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the rugaru connection is pretty solid here. Which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, if you ever go to the zoo,

353
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Speaker 1: the Audubon Zoo down in New Orleans, they have one

354
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Speaker 1: on display. That's a lot of fun. But yeah, I

355
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Speaker 1: feel like vay connection to that creature, like maybe that

356
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,359
Speaker 1: was even the original concept, and they're like, we have

357
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Speaker 1: another episode that has a werewolf in it. Let's go

358
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Speaker 1: a different direction here. I didn't do an exhaustive search.

359
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,359
Speaker 1: It seems like you went a lot deeper, but I

360
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,720
Speaker 1: did crack open Carol Rose's books and see if she

361
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,720
Speaker 1: had any mention. The only the closest thing she mentions

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Speaker 1: is a different supernatural father, and that's Pierre Futard or

363
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Speaker 1: Father Spanker, which is a French kind of uger character

364
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Speaker 1: that's also a monstrous Christmas kind of crampiest creature that's

365
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Speaker 1: a counterpart to Father Christmas. So she doesn't listen any

366
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Speaker 1: kind of you know, swamp Spanish moss creature. So I

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Speaker 1: think you're right. I think it's an invention for the show,

368
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Speaker 1: but a fun invention and one that feels like it

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Speaker 1: could be real enough. So there you go.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Now, what about the monstrous qualities of Spanish moss itself?

371
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Speaker 2: I wanted to get a bit into this. Here. A

372
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,120
Speaker 2: funny thing about Spanish moss. Most scientific sources will acknowledge

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Speaker 2: this right at the top, is that it is neither

374
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Speaker 2: Spanish nor is it moss, which is pretty funny, but

375
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Speaker 2: I'll deal with those one at a time. So regarding moss,

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Speaker 2: the species name of Spanish moss is Telanzia eucinioides, and

377
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 2: it's taxonomized within the flowering plant family Bromeliacee, also known

378
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Speaker 2: as the bromeliads, along with the pineapple plants. So Spanish

379
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,920
Speaker 2: moss is a cousin to the pineapple, and I feel

380
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Speaker 2: like you can almost see it, Like if you get

381
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 2: up real close to Spanish moss and you look at

382
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,600
Speaker 2: the weird curling stalks and leaves that kind of remind

383
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,639
Speaker 2: me of pineapple leaves in a strange way. They're obviously

384
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,879
Speaker 2: much smaller, but you can almost see the family resemblance.

385
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm looking at some close up pictures right now,

386
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 1: and yeah, I can lean into that.

387
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,879
Speaker 2: True mosses, of course, are more distantly related. They belong

388
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 2: to a division of non vascular, non flowering plants called bryophytes.

389
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,680
Speaker 2: Spanish moss is not a moss at all. It's also

390
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Speaker 2: not Spanish. It is native to north, South, and Central America.

391
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Speaker 2: So in the United States it's only found in the South,

392
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Speaker 2: along the Gulf Coast and up the East coast to

393
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Speaker 2: around Virginia. Chicago is no place for a Spanish moss

394
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Speaker 2: man to thrive.

395
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Speaker 1: Yeah, when I think Spanish moss, I always instantly think Savannah, Georgia,

396
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 1: because we have some some beautiful examples of it there,

397
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Speaker 1: especially in the out there in amid the tombstones.

398
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Speaker 2: Yeah, in North America, it's going to be especially in

399
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 2: like coastal areas around the American South. But if it's

400
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 2: not Spanish in origin, why is it called Spanish moss.

401
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of things just have like a

402
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 2: country name applied to them and they're not from that

403
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 2: country at all, and this is one of those cases.

404
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,199
Speaker 2: The origin story that I've seen most attested here is

405
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 2: that the naming convention comes from early French explorers in

406
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,479
Speaker 2: the Americas who thought that the plant looked like the

407
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 2: big beards of Spanish conquistadors, so they called the plant

408
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Speaker 2: Spanish beard.

409
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Speaker 1: Well, I think that's another reason that one might lean

410
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Speaker 1: into creating a monster based on it, right, because it's

411
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: already compared to a part of a person's look in

412
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Speaker 1: general features.

413
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Speaker 2: That's true. I want to get back to that in

414
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 2: a minute now. An interesting thing that makes Spanish moss

415
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 2: different as a plant is that it is an epiphyte,

416
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 2: which means an organism that grows on other plants. Epi

417
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 2: means on top of fight means plant, So it's an epiphyte.

418
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 2: If you've ever seen it in the wild before, you've

419
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 2: probably seen it hanging off of the limbs of trees,

420
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Speaker 2: especially trees like live oak and cyprus. Now you might

421
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 2: assume just by looking at it dangling off of tree

422
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 2: limbs the way it does, that Spanish moss is a

423
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 2: parasite killing the tree that hosts it. And you also

424
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 2: might remember the botanical body horror that we talked about

425
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Speaker 2: in our episodes on missletoe from several years back. In

426
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Speaker 2: that case, one that is totally going Cronenberg on its

427
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 2: host plant, that seems not to be the case with

428
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 2: Spanish moss. A lot of sources flatly state that it

429
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 2: is just not parasitic at all. It does no harm

430
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 2: to the tree. According to this opinion, it would probably

431
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 2: be best considered a commensal organism. So in this case,

432
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 2: the idea would be Spanish moss benefits the tree is unaffected. However,

433
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 2: it seems to me like the exact symbiotic equation is

434
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 2: perhaps debatable, and some sources say Spanish moss might have

435
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 2: a mild negative effect on the host tree, possibly just

436
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: by blocking sun from reaching some of its lower leaves

437
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 2: or something like that. But it's not like drilling into

438
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 2: the host tree and sucking it, sucking nutrients out of

439
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 2: its sucking water out of its vascular system and stuff

440
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 2: like that the way that mistletoe does so. According to

441
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 2: most sources. At least, Spanish moss is probably not a parasite.

442
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: It certainly not an obligate parasite, though it seems to

443
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 2: prefer trees. I think you can see it sometimes growing

444
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 2: on other substrates, even inanimate ones. And it does not

445
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 2: leach sustenance directly from its host tree. So if it

446
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 2: doesn't act like a vampire to the host tree, and

447
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: it doesn't have roots going into the ground, how does

448
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 2: it get its water and mineral nutrients which plants need. Well,

449
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 2: it gets these things from the air. Spanish moss is

450
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 2: an air plant, so it absorbs moisture from the air

451
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:33,120
Speaker 2: using little scales on its leaves called trichomes. So when

452
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,479
Speaker 2: rainfalls or when fog swirls, when mists rises off the ground,

453
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: the Spanish moss will be there waiting to get its cut.

454
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 2: And as this tangled, shaggy collection of hair like leaves,

455
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 2: these fibers, all winding together, it does have a very

456
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 2: uncanny appearance. It can form these ghostly drooping masses like

457
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 2: the wispy hair of a witch, or like old bits

458
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 2: of cobweb tangled up in the branches. But if you

459
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 2: look close, the structure is interesting. Rob, I've got some

460
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: pictures for you to examine here. People at home, you

461
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 2: might want to look up close ups of Spanish moss,

462
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 2: especially to see the tri combes. If you see magnified images,

463
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 2: like through a microscope, you can see all these little

464
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 2: these little scales lifting up like flaps off of the

465
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 2: surface of the leaves.

466
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's very intricate.

467
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 2: And these scales are what the plant uses to trap

468
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 2: moisture from the air. However, that means that in order

469
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 2: to survive, the Spanish moss does need what will at

470
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 2: least at some point be a warm, sunny, humid environment. So,

471
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 2: as Colchak discovered, you're not going to find it growing

472
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 2: around Chicago, except maybe in a steamy sewer, though I

473
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 2: guess there it wouldn't have access to the sun. But

474
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: during cold and dry times it can apparently go dormant,

475
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 2: so it can kind of like keep the water that

476
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 2: it has stored just kind of close up and then

477
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 2: wade out dry times. But it will eventually need favorable

478
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 2: conditions to come back. And the tricombes are also used

479
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 2: to trap mineral and chemical nutrients that the plant needs.

480
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 2: Those can be dissolved in the water that it absorbs

481
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: or it can. I've read also that it can sort

482
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 2: of like just catch debris from the air. It can

483
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: catch dust, bird droppings, whatever, and try to make use

484
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 2: of that for its nutrients. Now, because Spanish moss has

485
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 2: to survive by trapping whatever water vapor is in the

486
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,199
Speaker 2: air for some monstrous flavor, we can call this breathing fog.

487
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 2: Because it has to breathe fog. You might imagine that

488
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 2: water is precious to it. What little it can get

489
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 2: must be preserved. But plants also need to breathe in

490
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 2: a way in order to perform photosynthesis. In order to

491
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 2: power their metabolism, they have to exchange gases with the atmosphere,

492
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 2: taking in carbon dioxide and water and then using sunlight

493
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: to power that chemical reaction that generates the carbohydrates for

494
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 2: the plant, and then of course oxygen as a waste product,

495
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: which is useful to us. But breathing exchanging gases with

496
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 2: the atmosphere can be dangerous when you are living on

497
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 2: a razor's edge of hydration when you have to get

498
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 2: all of your water out of the air itself, and

499
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 2: specifically the danger comes when a plant opens the little

500
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: holes in its leaves called stomata to absorb CO two

501
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: from the atmosphere. When it opens up like that, it

502
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: can lose moisture through those little openings, especially under a

503
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 2: hot sun, so Spanish moss uses a specially evolved type

504
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 2: of photosynthesis to avoid this. It's called crass eulacian acid

505
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: metabolism photosynthesis usually CAM photosynthesis for short, and this is

506
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 2: an adaptation found in plants that survive in especially arid conditions.

507
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 2: Under this regime photosynthesis, it actually has two phases. There's

508
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: a day cycle and a night cycle. So during the day,

509
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 2: when the environment is hot and dry, the plant keeps

510
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 2: its stomata closed so it doesn't lose water through the

511
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: holes under the burning sun. But nighttime is the right time.

512
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: When the sun goes down, the stomata open up and

513
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: they absorb CO two and you specially adapted structure chemical

514
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: structures in their cells to fix the CO two and

515
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: store it until daytime. Then when the sun comes back up,

516
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: the stomata close once again and the plant cells release

517
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 2: the stored CO two harvested during the night for photosynthesis

518
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: to take place under the sunlight. So you could argue

519
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 2: that Spanish moss feeds by night and then closes the

520
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 2: coffin lid to digest during the cursed daylight.

521
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: Ooh, very nice. That's seasonally appropriate right there.

522
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: So actually, I think Spanish moss is the perfect thing

523
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 2: to cover the body of a monster that roams in

524
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: the nighttime.

525
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: Though.

526
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: You know, something that just occurred to me about the

527
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 2: episode is how come the monster in Kolchak always attacks

528
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: in the night. The guy is sleeping all day in

529
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 2: all night, so shouldn't he sometimes be dreaming it during

530
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:09,239
Speaker 2: the daytime.

531
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: Unless he's aware of how cam photosynthesis works. You know,

532
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: it's a shame they didn't go into all this in

533
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: the episode, because Darren McGavin could have been like, cam photosynthesis?

534
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: Is it camming right now?

535
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 4: That is what he'd say. Okay, Rob, are you ready

536
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 4: for yours?

537
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: Yeah? For mine. You know, if you've listened to the show,

538
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: and if you've listened to Weird House Cinema, you probably

539
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: know that I have a soft spot for the nineteen

540
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: nineties Outer Limits revival. They produced a ton of episodes,

541
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: more episodes of this than the original Outer Limits series.

542
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: I think they were all filmed in Canada, often used

543
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: very Canadian crew and very Canadian casts, and of course

544
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: often dealt with you know, it was a science fiction series,

545
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: so it's more likely to involve elements that we can

546
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: discuss here on the show, as opposed to shows like

547
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:14,719
Speaker 1: Night Gallery or Tales from the Crypt.

548
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 2: What little of the nineties Outer Limits I've seen is

549
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 2: mostly stuff that you've referred me to, but by large

550
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: I'm impressed, Like, well, it's a mix of things. The

551
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 2: episodes don't always look the most amazing, but of the

552
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 2: stuff I've seen, typically the writing and the acting is

553
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: quite solid.

554
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, Typically, if you're just going in blind on a

555
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: nineties Outer Limits episode, you can expect it to be

556
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: well acted, overly serious, with a mix of solid practical effects.

557
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: Usually there's some nice sets, like this is a show

558
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: that really had to think and rethink how to create

559
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: a spaceship or alien hallway multiple times per season, and

560
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: they generally did a pretty good job. The digital effects, though,

561
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: ye are generally not that great to look at.

562
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to say regarding the sets, it has a quality.

563
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 2: I don't know exactly what this is I'm noticing, but

564
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 2: it looks like other TV shows made in Canada in

565
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,959
Speaker 2: the nineties, Like the sets remind me of the sets

566
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: from Are You Afraid of the Dark. The Nickelodeon horror

567
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: TV show with you Know shot in Canada in the nineties.

568
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 2: A lot of things shot in Canada in the nineties

569
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 2: look like this to me, film nerds out there, tell

570
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: me what is it? I'm noticing? What is that nineties

571
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: Canada look?

572
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if memory serves I may be wrong in this.

573
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: I think they filmed all these in and also around Toronto.

574
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: So you know, anytime you need like an urban environment,

575
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: you need some skyscrapers or what have you, there's a

576
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: certain mix of buildings that are going to be considered

577
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: for those shots. But an your right, Yeah, I love

578
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: the nineties Outer Limits. The lesser episodes are often going

579
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: to have a weaker message or more ham fisted men,

580
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: and the opening and closing narration can also be a

581
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: bit hammy, as it tries to like compose a really

582
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: grandiose idea for this episode that is sometimes present and

583
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: sometimes feels kind of tacked on.

584
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 2: I agree. I thought with this episode in particular, it

585
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 2: might have been better without any of the narration, because

586
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 2: I feel like the narration just tried to put an

587
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: overly simplistic spin on what was actually a morally complex episode.

588
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, I feel like the ending to this one,

589
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: they nailed the landing, there's no need to say, and

590
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: the plane landed successfully and like, no, we just watched it.

591
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: It just didn't. So the episode that I selected is

592
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: from the seventh season of The Outer Limits. I believe

593
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: this is actually from two thousand and one. It is

594
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: titled Think Like a Dinosaur.

595
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 2: You might really expect the episodes going in a different

596
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 2: direction than it does based on that title.

597
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: Yeah you think you think, I don't know, walk like

598
00:33:53,800 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: an Egyptian or I don't know, do the dinosaur. We'll

599
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: get into what the title means. But it's based on

600
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety six Hugo winning novel lette of the

601
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: same name by James Patrick Kelly. It was directed by

602
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: Jorge Montesi and it stars Enrico Colintoni. This is an actor,

603
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: by the way, who played Veronica Mar's dad on Veronica

604
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: Mars and he also played the character of Mathisar in

605
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: Galaxy Quest. It also stars Linnea Sharples.

606
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 2: I would say Enrico Colantoni is especially good in this.

607
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: I've liked him in everything I've seen him, and you know,

608
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: he's great and Veronica Mars and all that, but he

609
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: really is the heart of this episode and his performance

610
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 2: holds it down.

611
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Maybe not on the same level as holding

612
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: it together as as Darren mcavan, but still solid, solid

613
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: performance that grounds the episode. Oh I should also point

614
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: out if you want to watch this episode, lucky you,

615
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 1: because if you get Prime, this show is back on Prime.

616
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: It was on Prime like early in the pandemic, and

617
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: I watched a number of episodes like virtually with some friends.

618
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: We would do it every Monday night, and then it

619
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: vanished and we had to like watch it via like

620
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 1: scrambled versions on Daily Motion I think, and like sometimes

621
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:19,280
Speaker 1: where they had it was completely the footage was backwards

622
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: or mirrored, so that all the text was weird I think,

623
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: so that like it couldn't be detected by bots or something,

624
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, and the quality was suspect. But now

625
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: it's back on Prime. The quality is as good as

626
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,479
Speaker 1: it's going to get for the nineties outer limits, maybe

627
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: even too good considering some of the effects.

628
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 2: Okay, tell us the plot.

629
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 1: All right, So what we have here is a good

630
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: old fashioned teleportation horror yarn, one of my favorite sub

631
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: subgenres of horror so in the story, this is what

632
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,720
Speaker 1: the scenario in the future a technologically advanced reptilian alien

633
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: species called the Hanen, but dubbed dinos by humans. They

634
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: facilitate a form of teleportation that has allowed human beings

635
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: to travel to new worlds and explore the wider waters

636
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: of the galaxy. Now, the process here is very clinical,

637
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,879
Speaker 1: presented as something it can do undergoing anesthesia, and many

638
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,479
Speaker 1: humans seem to feel a great deal of anxiety about

639
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: the process, anxiety that the emotionless, pacifist dinos do not share.

640
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: So the dinos carry out most of the process, but

641
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: a human supervisor has to hit the final switch. Because

642
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: the system works by scanning a comatose individual at point A,

643
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: sending the information of that individual to point B, where

644
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: the machine over there recreates an exact duplicate of them,

645
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: and at this point there are two of the individual

646
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: with identical bodies and identical brains, identical memories. It then

647
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,399
Speaker 1: falls to the human supervisor at point A to hit

648
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: the switch that incinerates the common toast individual, the original individual,

649
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: the one who is doing the quote unquote traveling. This

650
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,959
Speaker 1: termination of the original individual at point A is called

651
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: balancing the equation.

652
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 2: Now, I should note that they explain the experience of

653
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: the what they call the jumper in this story as

654
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 2: as being continuous. So they say that you close your

655
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 2: eyes here at the jumping station, and then you open

656
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 2: them on this wonderful planet that you're being transported to,

657
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: so that they suggest that it's just going to be

658
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: like being here and then being there.

659
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: Right. But as we'll see, like deep down, everybody knows

660
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: what this means. And you know, I should point out

661
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: and we'll get into this more in a bit, but

662
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: I mentioned anesthesia. Anesthesia seems to be like a common

663
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: reference point or starting point for fantastic interpretations of this,

664
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 1: and it's also involved in sort of the wider philosophical

665
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: contemplation here. You know, what does it mean when my

666
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 1: consciousness chane? What does it mean when my consciousness seems

667
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: to cease for an amount of time? You know, it's

668
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: that weird experience of suddenly, oh, whatever happened happened, and

669
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: I'm suddenly awake again after the fact, I'm conscious again

670
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: after the fact. And so you see this reflected in

671
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: other treatments of teleportation, in say Stephen King's The Jaunt,

672
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: or also you see it referenced in like cryo sleep

673
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: scenarios and other science fiction.

674
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

675
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 1: So anyway, that's the setup, the sort of technological world

676
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: building setup for the episode. The plot concerns essentially three characters.

677
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:44,280
Speaker 1: You have Enrico Colintoni's Michael Burr. He's the human supervisor

678
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: at the lunar jump station. He's the one who hits

679
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: that incineration switch. Then you have LINEA. Sharple's Kamala Shastri

680
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: it is pronounced Kamala in this episode, who has arrived

681
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: at the lunar station to jump to distant world which

682
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: she's going to study an alien civilization. And then you

683
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 1: have David James Lewis playing this character Will Carson, who

684
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: it takes a little bit to figure out what he's

685
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: there for, but he's a replacement tech who is actually

686
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: a psychological observer sent by the company to make sure

687
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 1: that Burr can handle the job.

688
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 2: Because a lot is writing on Burr doing his job correctly.

689
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the Dinos are like, this is great, this

690
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: is this technology is wonderful. It's going to change everything

691
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: you do. It's going to ensure the long term survival

692
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: of the human race. But you've got to prove to

693
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: us that you're able to handle this. The dinos refer

694
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: to humans as weepies because they see them as is

695
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: way too emotional. They make a big deal out of

696
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: this whole destroy yourself at point A to travel to

697
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 1: point B, and they do not want to continue with

698
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: it if humans cannot handle it. So in this scenario again,

699
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: Kamala Shastri traveling to a distant point in the gall

700
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: or whatever. It seems like everything is going to going

701
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 1: as plan. She's a little nervous, but she's up for it.

702
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 1: But then during the procedure, the transmission is interrupted. Reconstitution

703
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 1: at point B cannot be confirmed, so the jumper at

704
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: point A cannot be incinerated. So Kamala wakes up screaming

705
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 1: still at point A, and essentially we're unsure if her

706
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: double has awoken at point B. And she is traumatized

707
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: by the pain and terror she felt in the jump chamber,

708
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: and Burr is there. He tries to reassure and you know,

709
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: said some kind words, is very compassionate, but she's like,

710
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: I don't think I can go through it again, and

711
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: he assures her, you don't have to, you know, don't

712
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: don't worry. You don't have to worry about it then

713
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: if you don't want to give it a second try.

714
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: This is entirely voluntary. But at this point even Burr's

715
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: commitment to teleportation technology is put to a severe test

716
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: when the Dynos confirm that Kamala has arrived at Point Be.

717
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 1: They tell him and Carson insists as well, that now

718
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: he has to balance the equation by killing the original Kamala.

719
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: So he struggles with the ethics of this, but goes

720
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: forward with it by convincing her to simply go through

721
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: with the teleportation. It's like, you've got to get back

722
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 1: in there. You've got to continue your mission, with the

723
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: idea being that she won't be scanned and transmitted this time.

724
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 1: She doesn't know this, She'll just be incinerated, and that

725
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: will balance the equation. That will only be one Kamala,

726
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: and she's on this distant planet exploring this new civilization.

727
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: And at this point he almost pulls it off, but

728
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: she gets cold feet again and the truth comes out,

729
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 1: and so now Burr is under even more pressure to

730
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: balance the equation, and there is no way around the

731
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: fact that he's contemplating just cold blooded murder. And being

732
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: asked to kill her, and she knows that that is

733
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: the scenario as well. And what's at stake here is

734
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: like the continuation, like you said, of the entire teleportation,

735
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: the advancement and continuing survival of the human species. So

736
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure is put on him at this moment.

737
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 2: There's a background scenario that they discuss, which is that

738
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 2: humans have destroyed the environment of Earth, that Earth is

739
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 2: close to uninhabitable at this point. Humans have polluted the

740
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 2: environment so much and that in order to have a

741
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 2: chance at survival, they're going to have to be able

742
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 2: to teleport en mass to these unspoiled worlds. But the Hanen,

743
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 2: like you said, they're unwilling to let humans do this

744
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 2: unless they prove that they can handle the technology that

745
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 2: they can quote balance the equation.

746
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: Now, at this point, my summary is not going to

747
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: really do it. It's going to sound a lot more

748
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: rushed because this is a part of the episode that

749
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 1: I think really depends heavily on the performances. But this

750
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,240
Speaker 1: is what happens. We see Berg grab a cool looking

751
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: sci fi gun from a safe, something that you might

752
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: see in time coop or something, and we think he's

753
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 1: going to go killer at this point, but when he

754
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 1: runs runs into her in the complex, he tells her

755
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: that he's arranging to have her smuggled safely back to

756
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: Earth on a routine shuttle, so that seems to be

757
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 1: in motion, and then he's confronted by Carson and he

758
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: knocks Carson out, So yeah, it seems like, all right,

759
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: he's gone rogue. He's doing the moral right thing here

760
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: for the individual. Maybe not for the greater good, but

761
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 1: for the individual. And then he leads her to an

762
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 1: air lock. But then he has this change of heart.

763
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 1: We see flashes back to this background information about him

764
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: having lost his family, lost his wife, and he has

765
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: a change of heart and instead he blasts her out

766
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: the air lock. Clearly this was not an easy choice

767
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: for him to make. He's just emotionally destroyed by this.

768
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: Two years later we see him once more. He's still

769
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: apparently the supervisor there at the lunar Teleportation station, and

770
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 1: the teleporter is being used and it's receiving somebody. Who

771
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: is it. Well, it's Kamala on her return to the

772
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 1: lunar station from her studies on that distant planet, and

773
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: she greets him warmly, telling him Hey, you were my

774
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: jump supervisor. Don't you remember remember me? You were so

775
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: nice to me, you were so comforting, And he says

776
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 1: flat late, no, that was somebody else.

777
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 2: And then the narrator comes in with some I think

778
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: over overly simplified, kind of hammy summary of everything we

779
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 2: just saw.

780
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. When I was watching these episodes with with

781
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 1: some with some friends, we would always make fun of

782
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: the ending narration, especially if the episode was a bit

783
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 1: bad or confusing, because you knew he'd come in and

784
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: try and wrap it up with a tight little boat.

785
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 2: Now, I think there are a lot of really interesting

786
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 2: things about this episode, and it raises a lot of

787
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 2: the great questions about about teleportation as a technology, if

788
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 2: you were to imagine something like it actually existed. Some

789
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 2: of the same questions applied to the idea of like

790
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 2: mind uploading or you know, transfer consciousness to a machine

791
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 2: substrate or something like that. I think one of the

792
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 2: really interesting things in this episode is that the essential

793
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 2: thing that Burr has to do has not changed. In

794
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 2: both cases. He is supposed to destroy the body of

795
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 2: the jumper at the origin point while they while they

796
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 2: go on living at the destination point. The only thing

797
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 2: that has changed is that in this scenario, the jumper

798
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 2: at the departure point has had time to wake up

799
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 2: and become conscious of the fact that they're still here.

800
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 2: But otherwise it's the same. So there's something where like,

801
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel like murder if they knew what was

802
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 2: going to happen going in and they're destroyed instantaneously at

803
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 2: the departure point as long you know, they understand, they

804
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 2: get to live on at the destination. But something about

805
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,800
Speaker 2: the fact that she has had several seconds of being

806
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 2: awake now and she's like, well, now that I'm here,

807
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 2: I don't want to die at this place. That changes

808
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 2: the equation. And I think that's interesting because it plays

809
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 2: with our intuitions about what would or would not be

810
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 2: murder in a strange scenario like this.

811
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, it's just this level of it certainly reminds

812
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: one of various sort of moral thought experiments where it's like, Okay,

813
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: you're going to flip the switch and you're going to

814
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:28,919
Speaker 1: save the human race, but somebody that you don't really

815
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: see or know in another room's going to die. And

816
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: then if they're okay with that, well, okay, here's a

817
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: different version of the scenario, etc.

818
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 2: Though I guess it also raises these some questions about

819
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 2: like where is consciousness located and is it possible for

820
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 2: consciousness to be continuously transferred if that concept even makes sense,

821
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 2: because again the jumpers talk about the idea that well,

822
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 2: they don't mind that their body is going to be

823
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 2: destroyed at the departure point because they're just going to

824
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 2: close their eyes and wake up on this other planet.

825
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 2: They seem to have confidence that their consciousness will continue

826
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 2: in some way. But what does that mean?

827
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, in this we can't help but

828
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 1: think of the think in the anesthesia example, you know,

829
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:13,280
Speaker 1: and really like sort of like just everyday ideas of like, well,

830
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 1: am I the same person want to wake up in

831
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 1: the morning, that sort of thing, you know, Yeah, yeah,

832
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: comparisons between sleep and death. That, as we've discussed in

833
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 1: the show, go you know, back into the earliest times

834
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 1: during which humans were able to contemplate these things. And

835
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: and that brings us, I think to the dinosaurs, the dinos,

836
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: the hanins, because that's another element of the plot here

837
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: that we don't you kind of have to come back

838
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: and think about it more yourself, because they don't get

839
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: into it as much, at least in the episode, is like,

840
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: what is the thought process of these of these dinos

841
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: who are again presented as being like dinosaur creatures, but

842
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 1: they're not. They're not depicted as being like completely quote

843
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: unquote cold blooded, Like they're not cruel. They're just caught calculating,

844
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: and it seems like they have made the decision and

845
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: don't seem to put a lot of effort into it

846
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 1: really that hey, you know, when one teleports, one is

847
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: going to destroy a version of themselves and recreate a

848
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: new one to carry out a particular task or goal,

849
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,439
Speaker 1: et cetera. And they don't think it's a big deal.

850
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 1: And so I was thinking a little bit like, well,

851
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: what would that mean, Where does that come from? How

852
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: much of that would be cultural? Because you can imagine

853
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 1: a scenario even with humans, where if they're regularly undergoing

854
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: this kind of teleportation, you would maybe have a lot

855
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 1: of cultural ideas surrounding it, maybe even religious ideas surrounding

856
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 1: it about the nature of the self and the soul

857
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 1: and how that has continued through this technological leap. But

858
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 1: also maybe there's something about the Hanans that, you know,

859
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 1: maybe they're more use social where the sacrifice doesn't mean

860
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 1: as much because the individual doesn't mean as much, and

861
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 1: that's just part of their just genetic program.

862
00:48:56,320 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. They are portrayed as mostly

863
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 2: benevolent but just not swayed by emotional considerations. And so

864
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 2: I think their point of view is that they're not

865
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 2: harming the jumper by killing them here because they're already

866
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 2: alive somewhere else. So it doesn't matter what the jumper

867
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 2: at the destination at the departure point actually wants, Like

868
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 2: if they wake up and say, no, don't kill me,

869
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 2: it's like that is just not of importance. You know,

870
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 2: they're fine, they're somewhere else now, and so this is

871
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 2: just sort of like a mistake to be cleaned up.

872
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 2: Whereas the human point of view is, oh, now there's

873
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 2: a person in front of me who wants to live,

874
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 2: and that that is extremely important. Like the fact that

875
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 2: this person is conscious and they want to live gives

876
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,720
Speaker 2: them just as much right to live as the person

877
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 2: at the destination point. And the dinosaurs don't see it

878
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 2: that way. They're like, well, no, this is the way

879
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 2: it works, and you know, she as long as she's fine.

880
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,320
Speaker 2: They're what the one that's here doesn't matter anymore.

881
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't. Again, they don't understand it. They kind

882
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: of mock at the human emotion in this respect, calling

883
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 1: us wheepies. You can imagine memes they might create, like,

884
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: oh no, a weepee accidentally made two sandwiches and now

885
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: it's sad, that sort of thing. But I should also

886
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: mention they made the strange choice in this episode to

887
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:22,280
Speaker 1: have the Hanens speak in an almost unintelligible monster voice. Yes, yeah,

888
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: like though the monster the dino will be talking, you

889
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 1: just can't understand it. You have to run it back

890
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 1: to figure out what it's squawking about. Yeah, to jump

891
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: the chain back.

892
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:32,760
Speaker 2: It's kind of crypt Keeper.

893
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, like crypt Keeper, sketchy, but but harder to understand.

894
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 2: Well, Also, they established that they're getting the humans are

895
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 2: hearing the Hanaen through a real time translation device, so

896
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 2: it's like translating their sort of squawks and language into

897
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 2: English for the jump operators. But hold on a second,

898
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 2: why does it make them sound like the crypt Keeper.

899
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 2: If it's doing that anyway, shouldn't the machine and just

900
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,240
Speaker 2: give them the kind of the serie voice.

901
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like, it's it's set to cryptkeeper. We don't

902
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 1: know how to change it back to Angela Lansbury. This

903
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: is just what we have to use now. Of course,

904
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 1: the central treatment of the whole episode has to do

905
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: with this, this idea of teleportation, the recreation of the self,

906
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: and and and the I guess it's not even really

907
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: a question about like the continuation of the soul like

908
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: it at Herd. Here it seems to be clear that

909
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 1: someone is dying and then a new person is being created.

910
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 1: And I really wasn't aware of this until I started

911
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 1: researching this episode. But it turns out this entire central

912
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: premise lines up with the work of Derek Parfitt, a

913
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 1: British philosopher who specialized in personal identity, among other subjects.

914
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 2: Parfit's come up on the show before. We may have

915
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 2: talked about him, Was it in our episode on astronomical suffering?

916
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 1: Maybe? I think so. Yeah. He he wrote about a

917
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 1: number of topics, so it's it's not like he's not

918
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: like a one idea guy, and he's very influential. So

919
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 1: he lived nineteen forty two through twenty seventeen, and in

920
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: his nineteen eighty seven book Reasons and Persons he explores

921
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 1: exactly this scenario, and I'm unsure if Kelly, the author

922
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 1: of Think Like a Ninosaur, based his fiction on this,

923
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 1: or if, as with swamp Thing and swamp Man, we

924
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: have an uncertain case with a possibility of independent development

925
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 1: in different fields.

926
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,240
Speaker 2: Swamp Man being another philosophical thought experiment about the idea

927
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 2: that like, if your body was destroyed by lightning and

928
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 2: then recreated out of different molecules by a lightning strike

929
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 2: and a swamp like, what relation would that other you

930
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 2: have to the original you?

931
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 1: Right? Right? So again Parfitt's book Reasons and Persons, in

932
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: chapter ten, what we Believe Ourselves to Be, he presents

933
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 1: a thought experiment in which he is commuting to work

934
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 1: on Mars via a machine called a tele transporter, in

935
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: which the subject loses consciousness and wakes up a moment later,

936
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: or seems to wake up a moment later at their destination.

937
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: In reality, however, it's explained really an hour takes. An

938
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 1: hour passes in between losing consciousness and reawakening. The original

939
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 1: body is scanned, recorded in every detail, and destroyed. Traveling

940
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: at light speed, the information takes three minutes to reach Mars,

941
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 1: and then using that information that had been sent the

942
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: replicator machine on Mars creates a new brain and a

943
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 1: new body out of new matter. So then Parfitt goes

944
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: on to layout a scenario that involves interruption and accidental

945
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: duplication without destruction of the original. The added wrinkle is

946
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,280
Speaker 1: that while the machine fail able to destroy the original

947
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 1: body and brain, it also inflicted a heart condition that

948
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: will be fatal in like forty days. Also in the

949
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 1: thought experiment, the scanning is supposed to destroy the individual

950
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 1: as part of the process. It's not like there's this

951
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: switch that you hit for incineration. It's like all part

952
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 1: of the process.

953
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 2: So it's not a separate decision that an operator has

954
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 2: to make.

955
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: Right, right, And it makes more sense, I guess in

956
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: the fictional treatment, he writes quote simple teletransportation, as just

957
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,880
Speaker 1: described is a common feature in science fiction, and it

958
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 1: is believed by some readers of this fiction merely to

959
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 1: be the fastest way of traveling. They believe that my

960
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,399
Speaker 1: replica would be me. Other science fiction readers and some

961
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 1: of the characters in this fiction take a different view.

962
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 1: They believe that when I press the green button, I die.

963
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 1: My replica is someone else who has been made to

964
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: be exactly like me. So he uses the thought experiment

965
00:54:56,719 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 1: to discuss what he calls two kinds of sameness, qualitative

966
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 1: identity and numerical identity. So the scanner and replicator produce

967
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 1: a double that is qualitatively identical but not numerically identical.

968
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 1: In other words, the two are otherwise the same, but

969
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 1: they are not literally the same person in a physical sense. Again,

970
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 1: like new matter was used to make, no, there's no

971
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 1: physical connection between these two beings.

972
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 2: It's kind of like how you can have two copies

973
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 2: of the same book that are at the same time

974
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 2: the same book, but they're also two different objects.

975
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 1: Right. Likewise, though, he points out that numerically identical individuals

976
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 1: can also become qualitatively different. Quote, though our chief concern

977
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 1: is our numerical identity, psychological changes matter. Indeed, on one view,

978
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: certain kinds of qualitative change destroy numerical identity. If certain

979
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,319
Speaker 1: things happen to me, the truth might not be that

980
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 1: I become a very different person. The truth might be

981
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: that I cease to exist, that the resulting person is

982
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:01,399
Speaker 1: someone else.

983
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 2: And in fact, the strange thing is that our bodies

984
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 2: and minds are constantly undergoing physical change, and yet we

985
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 2: have the conscious experience of it seeming to be that

986
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 2: life is continuous. It just feels like you were the

987
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 2: same person you have been your whole life, but physically

988
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 2: you're always changing.

989
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, physically at a cellular level, things are changing

990
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 1: where we're not exactly the same matter that we were

991
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 1: years back, and then major events, as he's pointing out,

992
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 1: have a huge impact on us. The episode closes with

993
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,439
Speaker 1: this idea as well, which I thought was right, thought

994
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 1: was really nice. The Kamala, who is beamed back to

995
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:49,359
Speaker 1: the lunar base is one numerically different. This is the

996
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: third version of her in the story that we don't

997
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 1: see the second, the one that's on that other planet.

998
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 1: This is all due of course to the scanner destroyer

999
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:02,800
Speaker 1: replicator technology, but she also seems to be qualitatively different

1000
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: as her as her experienced studying an alien civilization has

1001
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 1: greatly impacted her. There's even a new tattoo on her

1002
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: and a different hairstyle to sort of drive this home visually.

1003
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:14,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1004
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Burr is numerically identical to the man she knew

1005
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 1: before that she met before, but it seems that he

1006
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: is qualitatively different as well, forever changed by the horrendous

1007
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 1: series of events that he went through, namely the murder

1008
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 1: he committed to keep the teleportation machines running. And and

1009
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 1: of course she is completely oblivious to this because the

1010
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:41,439
Speaker 1: version of Kamala that she is did not witness any

1011
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: of this and was not the one murdered. And so

1012
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 1: that final line just hits nicely. He's like, no, that

1013
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 1: was someone else, Like that was a that was a

1014
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 1: different me before I was changed by what happened.

1015
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 2: I think this raises another interesting philosophical question, kind of

1016
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 2: a moral philosophical question, which is, imagine that the error

1017
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 2: scenario had never happened. You know, you never had the

1018
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 2: scene where he has to hunt down a jumper with

1019
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:11,520
Speaker 2: a gun and blow them out of the airlock. It

1020
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 2: like murder them in a very explicit way, and he

1021
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,920
Speaker 2: was still just pressing the button to incinerate the body.

1022
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 2: Is there anything morally wrong going on there? If we

1023
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 2: assume that everything that the characters assume is true, so

1024
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:31,040
Speaker 2: assume that it is basically painless, that the conscious experience

1025
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 2: of the person undergoing it is that they close their

1026
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 2: eyes here and they wake up at the destination point.

1027
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 2: There's not actually like a person to suffer or to

1028
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 2: be denied life or whatever, that there's just a continuous

1029
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 2: conscious experience and all of that. Is there anything morally

1030
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 2: wrong with what you're doing by pressing the button to

1031
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 2: incinerate the person at the departure point? I don't know.

1032
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 2: I think that's a really interesting question to ask, because

1033
00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 2: you could say, even if nobody is suffering and the

1034
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 2: person who's jumping gets to continue to live, so in

1035
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 2: whatever normal way we would think about it, they're not

1036
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 2: being murdered, you'd still have to wonder if there is

1037
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,919
Speaker 2: some kind of subtle moral violence going on just by

1038
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 2: the repeated pressing of a button to destroy a human

1039
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 2: body like that, Like, is that conditioning the person who

1040
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 2: has to do the button pushing in a way that

1041
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 2: degrades them morally in some way?

1042
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, It's a rich field for thought here. And

1043
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:38,160
Speaker 1: to be clear, Parfitt goes into a great more detail

1044
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 1: in the book and of course uses this thought experiment

1045
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 1: as a leaping off point to discuss identity and self

1046
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 1: at great length. Though it all, it's all very very

1047
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: readable and absorbable, so I do recommend picking that up.

1048
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 1: And I did not not have time to seek out

1049
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 1: and read the original novel. Lette think like a dinosaur.

1050
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: But I understand, of course it's quite good as well,

1051
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 1: and I'd be interested to hear from anyone out there

1052
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 1: who has read it and can compare it to the

1053
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,920
Speaker 1: outer limits adaptation. And of course, yeah, in terms of

1054
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 1: human consciousness and identity. You know, we could easily go

1055
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 1: on and on here, but I thought I might close out.

1056
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 1: I was reminded of a brief mention from an article

1057
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 1: that we reference in our shadow episodes. Do we actually

1058
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 1: see shadows? On Jay Store Daily? By Roy Sorensen. He

1059
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 1: writes the optics of the Chinese moists focused on shadows

1060
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 1: rather than light. They defend the literal truth of Chiang

1061
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 1: Xu's aphromism, the shadow of a flying bird never moves,

1062
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 1: for shadows last only an instant. The Chinese dialectician Kung

1063
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:49,600
Speaker 1: Sun Lung three twenty five through two fifty PCE appears

1064
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 1: to have extended the objection to the bird. At each moment,

1065
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 1: the bird is where it is and so is not traveling.

1066
01:00:56,720 --> 01:00:59,240
Speaker 1: Since the bird is always at rest, the bird no

1067
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 1: more move than its shadow.

1068
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 2: I guess to try to map that onto our questions

1069
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 2: about teleportation and human consciousness, you know, would consciousness survive

1070
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 2: the body being destroyed in one place and recreated exactly

1071
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 2: in another. Uh, you could maybe take the view that

1072
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:18,800
Speaker 2: consciousness is not continuous anyway, that that is merely an

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01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 2: illusion and there are only instants of consciousness that are

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01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 2: that are mistakenly thinking that something is traceable from one

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01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 2: moment to the next, and in fact there is not.

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01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:34,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I don't know.

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01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 2: If I buy that, but that's an interesting way of

1078
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 2: seeing it.

1079
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:38,680
Speaker 1: Well that I guess that's one of the great things

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01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 1: about this about it, about this particular quandary, but also

1081
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 1: questions about consciousness in general, is that there's I mean,

1082
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 1: I guess there's some wrong answers out there, but you

1083
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 1: can generalize and say there are no wrong answers like this.

1084
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 1: These are all just thought experiments and ideas that that

1085
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 1: tease at the reality and make us sort of turn

1086
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 1: our perceptions on their head and reconsider what they are

1087
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 1: and what we are. Well.

1088
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of the thought experiments about

1089
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 2: consciousness they don't necessarily provide evidence to help us discover

1090
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 2: the true nature and origin of consciousness. They don't always

1091
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 2: help us discover what consciousness really objectively is, but they

1092
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 2: do help us better understand our intuitions about consciousness, which

1093
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 2: are often quite vague, and these thought experiments can make

1094
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 2: them clearer. Yeah, anyway, good Outer Limits episode.

1095
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I recommend checking out. It's one of my favorites.

1096
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 1: It's one of my wife's favorites. I think she she'd

1097
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 1: seen it before our I did years ago, and she

1098
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 1: always brings it up as an episode worth watching. So

1099
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 1: I would agree. Not all of the Outer Limits episodes

1100
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 1: are necessarily worth watching. Again, there are some weak ones,

1101
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 1: but this one's a strong one, all right. And on

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01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 1: that note, we're going to go ahead and close up

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01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 1: Anthology of Horror volume nine. Thanks for listening, joining us

1104
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 1: on this quest, and we'd love to hear from everyone

1105
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 1: out there. If you have thoughts about the episodes in particular,

1106
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 1: or the show's in particular that we discussed here, ride in,

1107
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:09,240
Speaker 1: and if you have thoughts about the subject matter that

1108
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:15,280
Speaker 1: we discussed about consciousness and the self, about Spanish moss

1109
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 1: and different interpretations of it right in, we would love

1110
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:21,600
Speaker 1: to hear from you. Just a reminder that stuff to

1111
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:25,440
Speaker 1: blow your mind. As a science podcast with core episodes

1112
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays, we have a listener Mail episode

1113
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Speaker 1: on Mondays. We have a short form Monster Factor Artifact

1114
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 1: episode on Wednesdays and on Fridays, we set aside most

1115
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 1: serious concerns to just talk about a weird film on

1116
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 1: Weird House Cinema. And Hey, if you use any of

1117
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 1: the social media platforms, do check us out and follow

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Speaker 1: are stbym.

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01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 2: Podcast Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer

1121
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 2: O Skull of Skulls Pauseway. If you would like to

1122
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:00,200
Speaker 2: get in touch with us with feedback on this episod

1123
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 2: or any other, to suggest a topic for the future,

1124
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:04,960
Speaker 2: or just to say hello, you can email us at

1125
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:14,920
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1126
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:17,920
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1127
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