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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: You know, working in national television, it'll push you to

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Speaker 2: your limits and you'll end up doing things you never

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Speaker 2: thought you'd do. A lot of times, you know, you

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Speaker 2: look back at it and you're like, I can't believe

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Speaker 2: that really happened.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. I'm so excited about this interview.

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Speaker 1: It's with Claire Cinema. She's a journalist and an author,

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Speaker 1: and she was a TV producer for forty eight hours

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Speaker 1: and sixty minutes. Now she's pulling back the curtain on

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Speaker 1: true crime television. I learned a lot from her. She's

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Speaker 1: talking about her memoir killer story. This book is right

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Speaker 1: up my alley because I'm pretty sure I have probably

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Speaker 1: seen every single episode that you were ever involved with

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Speaker 1: with forty eight Hours. I'm obsessed with forty eight hour mysteries.

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Speaker 1: I am. I think it's such a high quality show.

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Speaker 1: So I'm excited to talk about this. And I was

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Speaker 1: a television news producer for about half my life, so

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Speaker 1: we have a lot in common. I'm excited about this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds perfect you. You couldn't be more suited

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Speaker 2: for this book.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's start with Well, where does that makes sense

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Speaker 1: to start with you?

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Speaker 3: Is it?

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Speaker 1: It has to be your work history. Why do you

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Speaker 1: have so much insight into this? Right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So I worked at CBS News for about a decade.

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Speaker 2: I was a producer for forty eight hours and for

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Speaker 2: sixty minutes, and I was on the murder beat. So

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Speaker 2: if there was any kind of major murder story, terrorist attack,

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Speaker 2: mass shooting, I was there. We were, you know, on

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Speaker 2: the ground for serial killer man hunts and the aftermath

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Speaker 2: of numerous you know, police shootings and mass shootings and

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Speaker 2: more murder trials than I can even remember.

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Speaker 1: You know, what's so interesting is I think to the

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Speaker 1: majority of the population that sounds like a depressing, macabre,

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Speaker 1: you know, really upsetting job. But to my audience, everybody

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Speaker 1: is going to geek out over this because a lot

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Speaker 1: of people watch these shows. I watched Dateline too, I've

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Speaker 1: watched pretty much every show there is, So the insight

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Speaker 1: that you have is really going to be interesting. Were

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Speaker 1: you a true crime fan before you took this job

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Speaker 1: with forty eight hours or sixty minutes?

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Speaker 3: I was.

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Speaker 2: I was a local news reporter. I started out in print.

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Speaker 2: I worked for People newspapers in Dallas. You know. It

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Speaker 2: was my first job full time in journalism, and I

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Speaker 2: was covering everything. But the police blotter is my gateway

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Speaker 2: drug to crime reporting, and that's what brought me here.

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Speaker 2: So I just followed, you know, one story to the next,

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Speaker 2: and ended up quite by surprise, even to me, in

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Speaker 2: national television working in true crime.

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Speaker 1: Did you have a journalism degree or a master's screen

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Speaker 1: or anything. What was your schooling?

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Speaker 2: So? I had an English degree in writing and then

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Speaker 2: a journalism minor. I've I've been a journalist pretty much

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Speaker 2: since birth. I started my own neighborhood newspaper that was

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Speaker 2: called Kids News in elementary school, and you know, I

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Speaker 2: just never stopped. So I worked for every paper, you know,

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Speaker 2: at every school I ever ad ended, including you know,

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Speaker 2: my college newspaper, the Baylor Lariat, where I was always

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Speaker 2: always to be found in the newsroom or reporting some

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Speaker 2: story out on campus.

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Speaker 3: So that was a very formative experience.

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Speaker 1: What was your first big murder story for forty eight

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Speaker 1: hours when you started there?

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Speaker 2: So my first big murder story for forty eight hours

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Speaker 2: was Michelle Williams and Keller, Texas. So she was a

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Speaker 2: housewife who seemed to be just picture perfect, you know,

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Speaker 2: it was always going to fitness classes and doing pick

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Speaker 2: up and drop off with her young daughter. But actually

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Speaker 2: she had you know, a dark secret and a past

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Speaker 2: of numerous cons and lots of very suspicious behavior. And

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Speaker 2: one night, you know, she calls nine to one one breathless,

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Speaker 2: says her husband has been shot by an intruder and

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Speaker 2: that she been hit in the face and she needs

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Speaker 2: help immediately. And this is in Keller, Texas, a suburb

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Speaker 2: of Fort Worth. They live in a gated community. There

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Speaker 2: was virtually no violent crime like this, and so you know,

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Speaker 2: the full cavalry comes to this nine one one call

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Speaker 2: it like four in the morning, and they very quickly

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Speaker 2: discover that nothing is as Michelle Williams has described it.

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Speaker 2: And it looks like the scene has been staged. There's

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Speaker 2: the smell of bleach in the house, the murder weapon

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Speaker 2: is by the back door. It's very weird, and her story,

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Speaker 2: you know, starts to fall apart. But if you can

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Speaker 2: believe it, the Keller Police Department and the Trant County

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Speaker 2: DA's office had actually given Michelle Williams a plea deal

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Speaker 2: that she could plead guilty to deadly conduct and tampering

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Speaker 2: with evidence in her husband's murder, and she would have

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Speaker 2: only served about nine years. And I came to the

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Speaker 2: story then when I'm the plea deal was announced in

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Speaker 2: the local paper here in Dallas, and you know, I

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Speaker 2: was still working in local media at the time, and

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Speaker 2: I thought, who gets a plea deal for murder in Texas?

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Speaker 2: This makes no sense? And you know, what in the

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Speaker 2: world is deadly conduct? Like, you know, I had so

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Speaker 2: many questions, That's what.

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Speaker 1: I was going to ask. I've never heard that before,

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Speaker 1: I don't think so.

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Speaker 2: It only exists in Texas and Louisiana, and it is

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Speaker 2: a felony charge that is, basically, you were reckless with

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Speaker 2: a gun and someone accidentally got killed. So examples I

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Speaker 2: found were like, you're cleaning a gun and you're drinking

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Speaker 2: alcohol and the gun goes off, you know, and there's

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Speaker 2: someone else in the room and they're either grievously wounded

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Speaker 2: or they're killed, and so you are acting reckless with

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Speaker 2: a deadly weapon, but you didn't intend to kill anyone.

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Speaker 2: So it really the more I dug into the Michelle

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Speaker 2: Williams case, I was like, this doesn't actually apply because

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Speaker 2: her husband is asleep in bed and someone shoots him

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Speaker 2: from like.

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Speaker 3: Two feet away.

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Speaker 2: So you know, she tried to say it was suicide

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Speaker 2: at one point, and then she'd covered up the suicide

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Speaker 2: to try to get.

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Speaker 3: The insurance money. Her story just kept changing.

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Speaker 2: So it was a journalist's dream because I had all

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Speaker 2: these different narratives to play with and got to really

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Speaker 2: dig deep into her background. And so I ended up

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Speaker 2: releasing a three part investigative series called Did Michelle Williams

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Speaker 2: Get Away with Murder? And it ran in Culture Map Dallas,

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Speaker 2: which was the news website that I was working for

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Speaker 2: at the time, and that got the attention of The

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Speaker 2: Big Three Dateline on NBC twenty twenty on ABC and

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Speaker 2: forty eight Hours on CBS, and so from there I

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Speaker 2: ended up working with forty eight Hours as a special consultant.

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Speaker 2: I was on air talking about the Michelle Williams case,

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Speaker 2: and you know, once I saw the budgets and the

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Speaker 2: resources and the talent at CBS News, I was like,

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Speaker 2: how do I hitch my into this horse? And so

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Speaker 2: I started pitching them, you know, Texas murder stories that

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Speaker 2: they hadn't heard of yet and giving them, you know,

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Speaker 2: all sorts of content access, you know, exclusives, and before

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Speaker 2: I knew it, I was working for CBS News full time.

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Speaker 1: Wow. I mean that's quite a story based on this

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Speaker 1: one case. And I mean, you're right. I think that

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Speaker 1: for a very long time, Texas stories were sort of underutilized.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's the right word. And now

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's either Texas, Florida or California or

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Speaker 1: somewhere in the Midwest. Yeah, okay, that's interesting and so

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Speaker 1: deadly conduct. I was thinking, isn't that manslaughter? In other places?

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Speaker 1: I think that would be manslaughter.

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Speaker 3: Right, both similar to that, I think.

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Speaker 1: So did she end up with nine years or did

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Speaker 1: they go, well, Okay, what happens.

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Speaker 2: Through my reporting and through forty eight hours involvement, her

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Speaker 2: plea deal actually falls apart. So she was given every

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Speaker 2: chance to go back to the safety of her plea deal.

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Speaker 2: But I think once she did an interview with CBS

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Speaker 2: News and gave this whole alternate story about how she

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Speaker 2: was innocent and there was another person who pulled the trigger,

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Speaker 2: she just couldn't resist going with that. So her plea

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Speaker 2: deal was thrown out and she went to trial, and

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Speaker 2: she was sentenced to sixty years in prison.

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Speaker 1: Is she still there, I mean, I'm assuming she is.

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Speaker 1: Is she still alive?

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Speaker 3: Yes, she is still alive, and she is still in prison.

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Speaker 1: I have never understood people being willing to talk to

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Speaker 1: a network or any station really before the plea deal

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Speaker 1: goes through or the trial starts or any I've just

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Speaker 1: I don't get it. I don't understand it. But I

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Speaker 1: think you're right, it's just ubrius. I guess I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a lot of it's ego driven

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Speaker 2: and this ability that they think they have to win

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Speaker 2: people over with their version of events, so they want

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Speaker 2: to be on television. They want the attention and then

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Speaker 2: and they actually think that they can change the narrative

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Speaker 2: by talking. So I go into this a lot in

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Speaker 2: Killer Story because I speak with a lot of suspected criminals, murderers,

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Speaker 2: people who have been arrested, charged with murder, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I would go meet with them in jail and convince

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Speaker 2: them to give an interview to forty eight hours, you know,

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Speaker 2: from behind bars typically pre trial. That kind of became

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Speaker 2: my sweet spot because I learned that if you wait

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Speaker 2: until the trial dateline and twenty twenty are going to

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Speaker 2: show up and it's going to be this battle royale,

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Speaker 2: very uncomfortable, very competitive environment. And you know, I live

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Speaker 2: in Texas. I'm here. I can go sit at the jail,

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Speaker 2: you know, with more regularity than anyone else can, you know,

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Speaker 2: who lives in New York.

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Speaker 3: It's a lot more difficult.

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Speaker 2: So I would go talk to these people multiple times,

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Speaker 2: you know, get them on our team, get them to

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Speaker 2: agree to be exclusive until we air, to not do

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Speaker 2: any other interviews, you know, until It didn't always work,

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Speaker 2: but that was my pitch, and I would try to

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Speaker 2: convince them that this was the best thing to do

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Speaker 2: and this is the best route to take and they

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Speaker 2: would get the most press if it was an exclusive interview,

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Speaker 2: and you know I had all sorts of tricks at

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Speaker 2: my sleeve.

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Speaker 1: Well, I got a call from forty eight hours twenty

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Speaker 1: years ago. I was teaching, you know, as I am

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Speaker 1: now at ut at the University of Texas in Austin,

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Speaker 1: and they said, we are wondering if you can go

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Speaker 1: cover a trial that's getting ready to happen. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if this was considered pre trial time, I guess,

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Speaker 1: but there wasn't a lot of time. It was the

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Speaker 1: Coulton Potoniac case that happened, yeah, and it was of

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Speaker 1: course near campus and everything, and where he is convicted

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Speaker 1: eventually of murdering a female acquaintance of his and that's

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Speaker 1: still a very controversial case. And so that's when I

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Speaker 1: kind of got a quick summary of what was to happen,

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Speaker 1: which was we found out this trial is happening. It's

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Speaker 1: been on our calendars. Now we'd like to try to

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Speaker 1: lock people in, just like you said, before the trial starts.

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Speaker 1: So I thought it was so interesting where you know

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Speaker 1: they're coming in and maybe you can illuminate a little

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Speaker 1: bit of this for the audience that you have these

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Speaker 1: producers who are coming into town or the correspondence. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's not very far in advance, and then the trial starts,

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Speaker 1: and so it feels very much like you guys have

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Speaker 1: been with them for months and months or years and years,

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Speaker 1: and then you kind of start to realize, oh, wow,

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Speaker 1: this is this was something that happened. Once the trial

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Speaker 1: was ready to go, there weren't going to be any delays.

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Speaker 1: And so I wasn't able to do it because I

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Speaker 1: had a teaching schedule and I just didn't want to

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Speaker 1: bag out on my on my schedule at that point.

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Speaker 1: But I was disappointed. So tell me how that would

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Speaker 1: work if you find out that, Okay, I like Karen

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Speaker 1: Reid write in Boston, which is now on its second trial,

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Speaker 1: what would the procedure be. Do you have would you

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Speaker 1: have had a lot of advanced notice or do they

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Speaker 1: keep a calendar of trials coming up? What happens?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Do they ever keep a calendar?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 3: It is a very detailed calendar all over the country.

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Speaker 1: Not a Google calendar. I'm assuming it's pretty big, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: And who's.

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Speaker 2: Going where when and why? And there's always backups. You know,

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Speaker 2: this is the person that's going. This is the backup

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Speaker 2: if someone gets sick or they have a family issue

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Speaker 2: and they can't come. Because you have to cover these

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Speaker 2: trials if you want to be you know, a network

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Speaker 2: true crime show and get all the big interviews and stories,

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Speaker 2: you have.

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Speaker 3: To have a game plan.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, they have it all mapped out, and they

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Speaker 2: a lot of times like to use people that are

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Speaker 2: local so that they don't have to fly in you know, personnel,

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Speaker 2: and put them up in hotels and give them per

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Speaker 2: dems and you know, this all goes into the budget.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, if you had been able to do this,

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Speaker 2: you would have been a field producer. Who would you know,

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Speaker 2: be sitting in the trial taking notes, glad handing people

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Speaker 2: in the hallways, trying to take people to lunch, take

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Speaker 2: people to coffee, get them out of the courthouse and

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Speaker 2: book them to get them, you know, to sit sit

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Speaker 2: down for an interview. And because you know, a high

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Speaker 2: profile trial is going to have so many different members

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Speaker 2: of the media, the goal was always to get them

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Speaker 2: out of the courthouse alone, you know, in a restaurant,

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Speaker 2: in a coffee shop somewhere where you could have like

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Speaker 2: a private conversation about the case and hopefully get some

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Speaker 2: type of verbal agreement, you know, that they would work

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Speaker 2: with you and do an interview, and we always just

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Speaker 2: tried to go for you know, the exclusive.

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Speaker 3: Until we air kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, the idea that you know, we know most

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Speaker 2: people are going to talk again about their story, their

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Speaker 2: involvement in a case, and you know, it's not really

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Speaker 2: realistic that somebody would only ever talk to you about

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Speaker 2: a case, and we don't actually need that, you know,

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Speaker 2: we just need for our bosses and everything else. We

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Speaker 2: just wanted that first interview that we could call an

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Speaker 2: exclusive because it wasn't appearing anywhere else, and then after

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Speaker 2: we aired, you know, they could do whatever other shows

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Speaker 2: they wanted to do, but.

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Speaker 3: That was what we went for.

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Speaker 2: It didn't always work, and you know, especially if they

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Speaker 2: were like they worked for the prosecution, and you know,

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Speaker 2: they wouldn't most of the time agree to anything like

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Speaker 2: that because they were employees of the state, right and

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Speaker 2: so they didn't want to look like they were giving favoritism.

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Speaker 2: But we could usually get one or two people who

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Speaker 2: were going to be on the episode to be exclusive,

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Speaker 2: and that would be enough to convince, you know, our

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Speaker 2: bosses that we had something unique on this story. A

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Speaker 2: big problem for us is that we aired on Saturday

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Speaker 2: nights and ABC and Dayline ABC twenty twenty and Dateline

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Speaker 2: NBC air on Friday night, so we had to be

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Speaker 2: a whole week ahead of them, and they only had

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Speaker 2: to be a day ahead of us, So it was

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Speaker 2: it was definitely a challenge. You know that that timing

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Speaker 2: was so difficult, but we tried. You wouldn't think it'd

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Speaker 2: be that hard to get people to wait a week,

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Speaker 2: but it was actually quite hard.

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Speaker 1: And let's draw a distinction. I tell my students I

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Speaker 1: teach a true crime podcast class at UT. Let's draw

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Speaker 1: a distinction between the stuff that Dateline twenty twenty and

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Speaker 1: forty eight Hours produces, which is from a news station,

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Speaker 1: versus some of the things that we see on the

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Speaker 1: streamers documentaries. As far as what do the interviewees get

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Speaker 1: out of this, Yes, it's not a payment from news.

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Speaker 3: Correct. Yeah, so we don't pay for interviews.

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Speaker 2: We you know, are only doing this as a journalistic enterprise,

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Speaker 2: and we ask people to give us an interview, but

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Speaker 2: we cannot pay them because if we pay them, you know,

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Speaker 2: suddenly we're entertainment and they're trying to please us, and

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Speaker 2: they're going to say what they think we want to hear,

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Speaker 2: and so it's just completely against our our news standards

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Speaker 2: to pay them. Now, we we would say we didn't

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Speaker 2: want people to incur any costs for doing the interview.

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Speaker 2: So you know, if there were a situation where they

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Speaker 2: didn't have transportation to the interview site, we could send

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Speaker 2: a car, you know, if they're you know, we sometimes

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Speaker 2: we would fly people to New York to do the

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Speaker 2: interview because there's so much you know, heat and pressure

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Speaker 2: in their hometown.

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Speaker 3: And also it was actually.

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Speaker 2: Cheaper for us a lot of times to fly someone

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Speaker 2: to New York and do it in our studio where

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Speaker 2: everybody is based, and you know, so that sometimes is

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Speaker 2: an incentive we could give them, but was still within

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Speaker 2: our CBS news standards. So that is a surprise to

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Speaker 2: a lot of people who think that they will get

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Speaker 2: paid to be on our show. So that was a

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Speaker 2: very common conversation.

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Speaker 3: That I had with people.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I like about forty Hours,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not saying the other folks don't do this,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like you all really do to go

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Speaker 1: above and beyond in getting the actual players in the story,

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Speaker 1: getting the family on both sides, the alleged killer and

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Speaker 1: the victim's family, And oftentimes I'll see on shows, not

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Speaker 1: necessarily the other two big ones, but just in general

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Speaker 1: where it's pretty much all neighbors and investigators and maybe

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Speaker 1: an attorney or two and that's it. So it's very

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Speaker 1: clear that either people said no or they were not

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Speaker 1: pursued to begin with. Do you think that that is

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Speaker 1: a thing or am I imagining that with forty eight

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Speaker 1: hour mysteries?

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Speaker 3: You're not imagining it.

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Speaker 2: That is definitely our goal is to talk to someone

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Speaker 2: on all sides of the story, and the closer we

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Speaker 2: can get to, you know, the heart of the case,

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Speaker 2: the better. So the closer they were to the victim,

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Speaker 2: to the suspect, you know, that's our number one goal

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Speaker 2: is to get as close as we possibly can. I

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Speaker 2: talk about this in the book, because you know, there's

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Speaker 2: some stories that are just too big that we have

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Speaker 2: to cover, no matter who is willing to talk to us.

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Speaker 2: An example of that was the Alec Murdoch case in

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Speaker 2: South Carolina. We had to do that story. Everybody was

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Speaker 2: doing it. I was marooned in South Carolina that summer.

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Speaker 2: You know, we kind of have this phrase where we say,

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Speaker 2: like we'll interview the janitor if we have to anyone

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Speaker 2: who has some kind of connection to the story that

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Speaker 2: can give us any kind of access. And so that

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Speaker 2: was one of those cases where we couldn't get anyone

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Speaker 2: from the Murdoch family to participate. We really wanted to,

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Speaker 2: but we couldn't, and they were the victim and the suspect. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so you know, we are grasping for any kind of

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Speaker 2: source that we could get. You know, we got some investigators,

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Speaker 2: we got people who lived in the area, you know,

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Speaker 2: to talk about it. I think we interviewed a law

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Speaker 2: professor in South Carolina to talk about, you know, the

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Speaker 2: uniqueness of the case. But that is very much a

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Speaker 2: last resort. That's not what we want to do. And

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Speaker 2: our bread and butter shows we're talking to the victim's

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Speaker 2: close family, surviving spouse, parents, you know, someone like that,

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Speaker 2: and we're talking to hopefully the suspect themselves. That was

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Speaker 2: always my goal was to go in there and get

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Speaker 2: the person accused of this crime to speak in their

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Speaker 2: own words, and that was not always possible because they'd

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Speaker 2: have high powered attorneys who would say absolutely not. But

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Speaker 2: a lot of times you know, either through the attorneys

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Speaker 2: or through the suspect themselves.

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Speaker 3: You know, I was able to win them over.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of pressure for a producer. As a producer,

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Speaker 1: I was at WCBS and I was at ABC Radio.

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Speaker 1: You know, as a producer, I felt pressure certainly, But

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Speaker 1: in that time period I didn't have an entire show

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Speaker 1: writing on my shoulders. That just seems like incredibly stressful

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Speaker 1: to not only pursue and try to lock that in,

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Speaker 1: but just kind of going, Okay, I'm just gonna have

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Speaker 1: to do this when the trial starts and try to

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Speaker 1: get these people exclusively and then try to all them

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Speaker 1: away from dateline in twenty twenty. It just it seems

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Speaker 1: like a lot of pressure for somebody, especially a young producer.

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Speaker 2: It definitely was a lot of pressure. I think I

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Speaker 2: didn't know any better. Like I it was my first

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Speaker 2: job in television, and you know, my boss would be like,

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Speaker 2: we have to have the killer, and I was just

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Speaker 2: sort of like, well, I guess we got to have them,

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Speaker 2: you know, and I just kind of went all in

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Speaker 2: with it. But I would later learn that even when

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Speaker 2: we didn't get the killer, a lot of times there

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Speaker 2: would be so much propelling the story forward that we

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Speaker 2: would still go to air even without the killer, but

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Speaker 2: the killer was the bullet proofing of the story. If

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Speaker 2: we had the killer talking, there was no way that

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Speaker 2: story was getting canned. We were gonna make it even

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Speaker 2: if we got scooped by Dateline and they aired first.

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Speaker 2: You know, if we had the killer exclusive until we aired,

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Speaker 2: then that story was going to go. So that I

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Speaker 2: really hate wasting my time, and so that really helped

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Speaker 2: me to know that, well, if I can get the

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Speaker 2: suspect to go on camera and not to talk to

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Speaker 2: anyone else until we air, then I will know that

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Speaker 2: the stories ago and I haven't wasted my time and

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Speaker 2: I'll get to do it.

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Speaker 3: And that meant a lot to me.

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Speaker 1: But if they have a good attorney, they're not going

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Speaker 1: to I mean, I would never let my client talk

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Speaker 1: to you guys before the trial, maybe not even after

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Speaker 1: the trial, maybe when all the appeals are done.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you wouldn't believe the way.

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Speaker 2: You know, some attorneys will believe that it isn't the

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Speaker 2: best benefit of their client. So that was that was

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Speaker 2: always my favorite. The attorneys that really thought that, yeah,

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Speaker 2: this will help, we need to get our narrative out there. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was working every angle, you know, I could come

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Speaker 2: up with. In a lot of times, the district attorney,

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Speaker 2: the prosecutor, if it was a high profile case, they

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Speaker 2: would give press conferences about the case. They would talk

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Speaker 2: about the character of the suspect and how this was

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Speaker 2: a cold blooded murder and you know, all these different statements,

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Speaker 2: and so I would use that, you know, with the

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Speaker 2: defense and be like, well, the prosecutution is talking, the

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Speaker 2: prosecution is trying this case in the media, they're putting

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Speaker 2: all of this out on the record ahead of trial.

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Speaker 2: Don't you want to match them step first step? And

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Speaker 2: if they're going to talk, you know, why wouldn't you talk.

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Speaker 2: And if you're going to talk, well, why wouldn't you

438
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 2: let your clients speak for themselves. And you can be

439
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 2: in the room and you can object to any question

440
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,719
Speaker 2: that we ask, and you know, usually what would happen

441
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,880
Speaker 2: is they would maybe object to something in the beginning,

442
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 2: and then they would just completely fade into the background

443
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 2: and let us do our whole interview. I never had

444
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 2: a defense attorney that like stopped an interview or materially

445
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 2: like changed our interview style or questions. Like it was

446
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 2: always once we got them in the room and the

447
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 2: lights were up and the cameras were rolling. The defense

448
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 2: attorney really faded to the background.

449
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: And I think at least you guys probably Dateline too,

450
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: have had those interviews show up in court.

451
00:23:58,359 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have.

452
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 1: Either're using them as an exhibit, and you would think

453
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 1: it would teach a defense attorney better safe than sorry.

454
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 1: It's like putting your client on the stand is usually

455
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 1: not a good idea. So I am shocked. Do you

456
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: remember a case where that happened, where all of a sudden,

457
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: somebody from forty eight hours goes, oh, that's my story

458
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: as exhibit A.

459
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 2: Yes, so that happened in the Michelle Williams case in fact,

460
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 2: because she did not take the stand, but they entered

461
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 2: our entire episode into evidence and they played her speaking

462
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 2: parts in court.

463
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 1: So they found that relevant. I wonder what the counter

464
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: argument from the defense attorney would be if he signed

465
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: on to it. Do you remember was there an argument?

466
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 2: So he was not actually the defense attorney at the

467
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 2: time that we did the interview. She had a different

468
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: attorney that was like a personal attorney, didn't even typically

469
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 2: do criminal defense. I mean, it was just all sorts

470
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 2: of unusual stuff. But yes, you know, I found that

471
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 2: except for the super high pro file defense attorneys like

472
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 2: the Dick Degarins of the world, we usually have like

473
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 2: one or two cases with this defense attorney, Like, they

474
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 2: don't come up over and over again because these cases

475
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 2: are so unusual. And so if it's a small town

476
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 2: and you know, this is our first time meeting with

477
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 2: this defense attorney, we have a better chance of getting

478
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 2: them to agree to let their client do an interview,

479
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 2: because well, they've never had anything like this happened to

480
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 2: them before. They've never had, you know, a big producer

481
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: ask them these questions, and they've never had this kind

482
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 2: of opportunity. You know, a lot of times it starts

483
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 2: with just getting the defense attorney themselves to agree to

484
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 2: the interview, and once we have that, you know, it's

485
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 2: just one more step to get their client on camera.

486
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: I feel like I've almost never seen it work positively,

487
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: except in the case of Karen Reid.

488
00:25:58,720 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, where in.

489
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 1: Between the trials they release this documentary and I have

490
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 1: to say, regardless of how you feel, did she actually

491
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: intentionally run over her boyfriend who was a Boston cop.

492
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: You know, regardless of how anybody feels about her, guilt

493
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: or innocence. She did a great job on that documentary. Yeah,

494
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: and it's become this weird touchstone at least this year

495
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: where you have you know, pro police protesters or rally people,

496
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: and then you've got pro Karen Reid, and it's just

497
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: become this big thing. And I think a lot of

498
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: it is based on her personality, the way she presents

499
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,239
Speaker 1: for better or for worse, and so I think that

500
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: actually has helped her maybe, but I don't think it

501
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: helps anyhills. I've never seen it.

502
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is a tall order to have an interview

503
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 2: pre trial help you as as the defendant. But yeah,

504
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 2: sometimes they just can't resist the temptation to have an

505
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: audience of millions of people to get to share their story.

506
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 2: You know something else I would use to book people

507
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 2: would be this is not a court of law. Whenever

508
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 2: you decide whether or not to testify, you're gonna have

509
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 2: all sorts of rules and restrictions, and you know you

510
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: have to be cross examined, Like this is not that.

511
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 2: This is television. You control your own narrative here exactly.

512
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 2: You don't have to answer any question you don't want to.

513
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 2: You don't have to you know, be subject to this

514
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 2: interview if you choose to walk out. Of course we'll

515
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 2: be recording if that happens, and it does. Side note, No,

516
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 2: we don't tell them that part, but I mean they

517
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 2: know they know that we're recording the whole time. But

518
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: I of course would emphasize the fact that this is

519
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 2: not like testifying in court. This is entirely voluntarily you know, done,

520
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 2: and this is your chance to get to talk about

521
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 2: things that you want to and not talk about anything

522
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 2: you don't want to.

523
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: Were you, I think you're way too young for this.

524
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you were around when they pretty dramatically

525
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: switched the format of forty eight hours. It was not

526
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: always true crime, but when it was true crime, they

527
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 1: did it in three pieces, and I think it was

528
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: like twenty twenty twenty or you know, with commercial breaks,

529
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: so it was like the victim's point of view or

530
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: the family the killer's point of view, and then I

531
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: feel like it was prosecutors investigators, and it was such

532
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: an interesting way to tell that story where you're not

533
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: pinging back and forth. It is just like one hundred

534
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 1: percent of focus on that one focus. And then it

535
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: became you know, a typical hour but well done true

536
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: crime show. Do you know anything about that format? I

537
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: just I loved it. I thought it was great.

538
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't that was before my time. It does

539
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: sound very unique and interesting, though, I mean, I just

540
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: know the history of forty eight hours.

541
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 3: Like it started out.

542
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 2: They were going to do a documentary in forty eight hours,

543
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 2: So they were going to film for forty eight hours straight.

544
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: And they did this all over the country and it

545
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 2: was a okay program. But what really pushed them to

546
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: success is they did it in Austin. They were doing

547
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: a ride along with an Austin police officer and he

548
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 2: bonded to what he thought was a fire call at

549
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: a yogurt shop and it ended up being the yogurt

550
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: chop murders. The teenagers that were tied up and killed

551
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 2: and the yogurt chop and it's still unsolved to this day.

552
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: And the cameras were rolling that whole time. So that

553
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 2: and that was their most watched episode, you know, of

554
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 2: forty eight hours, and so that's what pushed the format

555
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: into being true crime all the time.

556
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: That was more than thirty years ago. I mean, I

557
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: I you know, I was in high school when that happened. Yeah,

558
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: I do remember that now. Man, that's it's still I

559
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: think they're getting closer, but it's it's still an unsolved case. Okay.

560
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: And then why does forty eight do one hour when

561
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: I feel like Dateline gets longer and longer. I mean,

562
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: I don't really remember the last time I've seen a

563
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: one hour Dateline. They're always at least two hours, I think.

564
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, our time slot is one hour. That's

565
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: what the network has given us. That's what they, you know,

566
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 2: have ordered from us. And we can occasionally get a

567
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: two hour special, but usually what we do is we

568
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: just air an episode back to back. Okay, so we

569
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 2: don't you know, that just hasn't been our format. They

570
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 2: seem to really want us to stick with a one

571
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: hour and that has always been from up top, you

572
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 2: know that That's how it comes down that they want

573
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: these one hour long shows, and we certainly see Dateline

574
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: doing those.

575
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 3: Two hour episodes.

576
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: We feel like, you know, a lot of times we

577
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: would talk about how it would be a better show

578
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 2: if it was one hour, because they're like filler and

579
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: there's all this recap like after every commercial break, like

580
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: just in case you're joining us, let's tell you everything

581
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 2: that happened and so that you know, as a producer,

582
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 2: as a writer, it doesn't sound very appealing actually to write,

583
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 2: to have to take something that we could tell tightly

584
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: in an hour and stretch it out into two hours.

585
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 3: But you know, God bless them.

586
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 2: They get the ad dollars, they get more commercial breaks,

587
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 2: they get you know, double the budget.

588
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 3: Then go for it.

589
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: Well, I can never say anything against Stateline only because

590
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: I Keith Morrison is just the most amazing person effort

591
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: and I just am crazy about when he is the correspondent.

592
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: I for sure pay attention and watch that episode, and

593
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,479
Speaker 1: I think it becomes atmospheric. I think, you know when

594
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: they do that, they have to. They spend so much

595
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: time in the town and everything. But you know, at

596
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: the same time, I certainly think you all move at

597
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: a faster clip. So let's talk about So you get

598
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: there and you're thinking, I'm in the big leagues now,

599
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: and how old were you when you started at forty

600
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: and eight twenty nine? Okay, so you get there, and

601
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: what did you think it was going to be like?

602
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: And then what was it actually like for you?

603
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 2: Do you remember I was surprised at how much travel

604
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 2: there was. I think in my mind, I thought, well,

605
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: I'm their Texas bace producer. I'm going to be doing

606
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: a lot of things just right in my own backyard.

607
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: But Texas is so big, and I would you know,

608
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: oftentimes need to get on a plane to get somewhere

609
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 2: in Texas in time for what they needed. And then

610
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 2: you know, they realized that I'm living so close to

611
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: DFW Airport and it has a lot of direct flights

612
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 2: places all over the country that I could get there

613
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: faster than people from New York and so I would

614
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 2: be you know, dispatched to South Carolina to Florida to

615
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: Colorado because I could be there first, and if there

616
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 2: was something big happening, you know, they needed boots on

617
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: the ground, I would be sent. And you know, I

618
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 2: started packing a go bag that had every you know,

619
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: because it was too much. There's no time to pack, right, Yeah,

620
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 2: I had to go back too. Yeah, you know, I

621
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: think like the whole secret agent element of it was surprising,

622
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: Like the idea that it would be like one way ticket.

623
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 2: You're leaving, you know when's the next flight, and you

624
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 2: don't know when you're coming back because you're come back

625
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: once you get the story once you get people to

626
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:03,959
Speaker 2: agree to interviews.

627
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 3: That was surprising to me.

628
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 2: I thought it would be more like my other jobs

629
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 2: in media, which you know, did not involve cross country

630
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: travel and one way tickets. You know, everything was pretty

631
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 2: clearly defined. If you are ever going somewhere for a story,

632
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 2: it was you know, it was really more for like

633
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: a conference that you would go somewhere. It wasn't really

634
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 2: a lot of travel involved for the reporting.

635
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 3: And then the competition.

636
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 2: I had no idea how competitive it was between forty

637
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 2: eight hours Dateline and twenty.

638
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 3: Twenty and you know, the war games and.

639
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: People don't fight fair, and there's all sorts of subterfuge

640
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 2: that goes on. That's really why I wanted to write

641
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 2: the book, was to show people what it's really like

642
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: to work in true crime TV. How you know, we

643
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: get these stories on the air, what we do to

644
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: convince people to talk to us, and you know, the

645
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 2: kinds of things that happen off care in every case

646
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 2: that never make air, but sometimes are even more interesting,

647
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 2: you know than the murder themselves.

648
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: Did you all ever work together other than a pool camera,

649
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,479
Speaker 1: which I'm assuming you probably had to do a pool

650
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: camera at some point, which which means basically, the court says,

651
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: we'll let one camera in and you all have to

652
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: share the footage. Which was my favorite because then I

653
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: have to deal with all of that when.

654
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 3: I was in the field totally.

655
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, the pool camera was about as close as we

656
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 2: came to working together. I mean, the stories I talked

657
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 2: about in the book. You know, it's producers saying things

658
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 2: to you know, family members about me. It's people who

659
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 2: are you know, saying oh, yeah, we're with we're working

660
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 2: with Claire, but they're actually working against me. People don't

661
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 2: realize it till the show, but the interview, where's Claire?

662
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 2: You know, Oh, she'll be here later. And then they

663
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 2: do the interview and they call me like what was that.

664
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's not me. I don't work for that show,

665
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: you know, And I mean that kind of stuff happened.

666
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 2: So it was very interesting and it added a whole

667
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 2: new element to the job.

668
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: And I bet you were picture perfect, the epitome of

669
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: kindness when you were out there too.

670
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 3: Oh of course, now read the book.

671
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 2: Trust me, I tell on myself at least as much

672
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 2: as anybody else. I think, you know, any good memoir

673
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 2: is honest and it shows the good, the bad, and

674
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 2: the ugly.

675
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 3: And you know, I'm I'm not a girl scout. I

676
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 3: have that in the book.

677
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: I've done things that you know, I never expected to

678
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 2: put in a book and admit to. But I do

679
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 2: feel like, you know, working in national television and working

680
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 2: for a prestigious show, you know, does to like a

681
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: competitive driven person like myself, is that it'll push you

682
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 2: to your limits and you'll end up doing things you

683
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 2: never thought you'd do because you want to get the

684
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 2: story and you want to be successful and you're at

685
00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: such a you know, hyper focused level that a lot

686
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: of times, you know, you look back at it and

687
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: you're like, I can't believe that really happened. You know,

688
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 2: it's it's not something without the heat of battle, you

689
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 2: know that you would have ever agreed to.

690
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 3: But then you're like, oh my goodness.

691
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 2: You know. So writing the book was very therapeutic, and

692
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 2: it really helped me put things in perspective and process.

693
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 3: You know a lot of things that happened.

694
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 2: You know, when you're working in news, it's like drinking

695
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 2: from a fire hose and you barely have a chance

696
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: to think about what you did before because you got

697
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 2: to move on to your next story, and so I

698
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 2: really appreciated the chance to go back and look at,

699
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 2: you know, some of my biggest stories and how they

700
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 2: all came together.

701
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about your stories. What was kind of

702
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: the first big one that you feel like you tackled

703
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: assertively and with confidence and it was, you know, great

704
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: for the bosses, And then maybe we can talk about

705
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: one that you thought this could have gone better or

706
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: just sort of the part of it. I mean, I

707
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: certainly can imagine interviewing killers, convicted killers and just like

708
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: giving them a platform, and that must not have felt

709
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 1: good for certain instances.

710
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

711
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 2: So the story that I'm the most proud of and

712
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 2: that I felt like was really forty eight hours at

713
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 2: its best and me doing what I do best is

714
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 2: the episode with Judge Julie Kusurik from Travis County. She

715
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 2: was is a district judge and she survived an assassination

716
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,919
Speaker 2: attempt and it was just incredible. We did a live

717
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 2: to tell episode with her where she spoke, you know,

718
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 2: directly to the camera and gave her first person experience

719
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 2: of surviving this horrific attack, you know, in front of

720
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 2: her own home in front of her son, you know,

721
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: her fifteen year old son. And I worked for I

722
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 2: want to say, like three or four years to get

723
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 2: her to agree to do this interview. It was one

724
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 2: of my longest bookings ever. And I just knew that

725
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 2: her story was so powerful and I loved that, you know,

726
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 2: she was a fighter and she had you know, been

727
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 2: shot in the head, had used her own hands to

728
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 2: shield the gunfire, and you know, had lost a finger

729
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 2: in the process, barely survives, is in the ICU and

730
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 2: files for reelection from her hospital bed. Wow, And I

731
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 2: was like, what, what a hero. You know, this is

732
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 2: an incredible woman. And so I just wanted to meet her,

733
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 2: you know, on a personal level because I just thought

734
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 2: that was so admirable and you know, that was incredible

735
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 2: to just get to shake her hand and you know,

736
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 2: tell her, you know that I was so glad that

737
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 2: that she was this model of strength, and you know,

738
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 2: I just think she's just a great role model for

739
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: people everywhere. And the fact that she was their first

740
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: female district judge in Travis County, you know, it doesn't

741
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 2: hurt either. So that that was another just big bonus

742
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: for that story for me, and so we were able

743
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 2: to get her to participate. Her fifteen year old son,

744
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 2: you know who at this time I think was now

745
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 2: eighteen or nineteen, you know, participated. We had everybody, you know,

746
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: the killer himself was in federal prison and had been convicted,

747
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 2: so we didn't do an interview with him, but we

748
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 2: had all of the police cooperation and you know, the

749
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 2: whole file, and it was just.

750
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 3: A really extensive investigation.

751
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 2: You know, the FBI was involved and everybody got involved

752
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 2: in Yeah, that's one of my proudest stories.

753
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: Did you roll against him? Is that what the motive was?

754
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 2: So, yes, he was a defendant in her courtroom, he

755
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 2: had actually misunderstood what was going on in his case,

756
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 2: and she was getting onto the attorneys for not working

757
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 2: diligently filing the proper paperwork on time. And she was

758
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 2: basically telling these attorneys, if you don't get your act together,

759
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 2: I'm just I'm gonna have to dismiss this case because

760
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 2: you're not doing what you need to do. You're not

761
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 2: doing it, you know, you keep asking for continuances and like,

762
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 2: I'm not happy. Well, the defendant misunderstood what was happening.

763
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 2: This was all revealed during his trial, and he held

764
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 2: his head in his hands and cried when he realized

765
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 2: that the whole motive for the murder was a complete misunderstanding.

766
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 3: But yeah, can you believe it?

767
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 2: It's really I mean you talk about senseless, This was

768
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 2: completely senseless. And yeah, he misunderstood. She was chastising the

769
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 2: attorneys and was moving toward dismissing his case. And he thought,

770
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 2: the judge is mad. Judge doesn't like me. It's not

771
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,399
Speaker 2: going to end well for me. I better just take

772
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 2: this into my own hands.

773
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 1: Yea, What is a case that you covered for forty

774
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: eight hours that was the most difficult for you? Just

775
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 1: maybe emotionally or the hardest interviews anything like that.

776
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: In the book, I talk about being dispatched to the

777
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 2: Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School shooting in Parkland, Florida. That

778
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 2: was the worst for me. I say that Parkland broke me.

779
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 2: I was never the same after Parkland. I flew out

780
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 2: there on Valentine's Day, the day that the shooting happened, stayed.

781
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 3: There all week.

782
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 2: It was awful, I mean, just to see what the

783
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 2: town was going through.

784
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 3: To be there right as you know.

785
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 2: People are still hospitalized trying to find out who's going

786
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 2: to survive. They're trying to figure out what to do

787
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 2: with the schools a crime scene. It just felt so

788
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 2: wrong to me to be there. And I had never

789
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 2: felt like an intruder as a member of the media before.

790
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 3: I always felt like I'm doing a public service.

791
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 2: I am giving answers to people who need them. I

792
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 2: am speaking up, you know, and getting access to things

793
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 2: that the public has a right to ask for. And

794
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 2: I'm making sense of this tragedy, and you know, I'm

795
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 2: asking the tough questions. And when I was in Parkland,

796
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 2: I just felt like I shouldn't be there.

797
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 3: I felt too early.

798
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 2: It felt like the media vulture that I never wanted

799
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 2: to be, and I had a really hard time there,

800
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 2: and then just afterward with like what am I doing

801
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 2: with my life? It was the beginning of the end.

802
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 2: I didn't quit for four more years because it's hard

803
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 2: scary to quit, you know, especially, you know, whenever you've

804
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 2: worked so hard in your career and you're at a

805
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 2: place that you feel like is the pinnacle, and then

806
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 2: to walk away, you know, is very difficult decision. So

807
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 2: but Parkland is what turned the tide for me. It

808
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 2: took me a little while, but I just couldn't do

809
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 2: it anymore.

810
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 1: I can imagine that would be the case. I've covered

811
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: school shootings before, and it's awful. You see these stages

812
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: of grieving right in front of you. You know, you

813
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 1: had people who didn't want to talk at all, they

814
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: were so upset, And then the students would want to

815
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: talk to you, and then after a while they were like,

816
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 1: get the hell out of here. We don't want you

817
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 1: here anymore. You know, they just it was over, and

818
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: they were unplugging our trucks and yea, the live streams

819
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: from our trucks. But I had a student at UT

820
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: who was a graduate student in the Radio Television Film department,

821
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: and she made a fantastic kind of visitor master's project,

822
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: a fantastic film about the church shooting that happened in

823
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 1: Sutherland Springs, which happened in twenty seventeen. Twenty six people killed.

824
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: It was a Baptist church, and she did it on

825
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,800
Speaker 1: the deluge of media that came and how it made

826
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: the town so incredibly resentful. It was like and they

827
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: would show video it was like twenty cameras around two

828
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 1: people who were praying, and it's the same shots and

829
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 1: they're right over them. It was based on a letter

830
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: that a Dallas Morning News reporter wrote as an op

831
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: ed piece that just it's an apology letter to the

832
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: town of Sutherland Springs and said, I'm sorry if I

833
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: even you know, remotely added to that. And so that

834
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 1: that film really, for me was kind of a big

835
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: wake up call. And then she gets to interview all

836
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 1: of the family members will not all of them, but

837
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: many of the survivors from that church service, including the

838
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: pastor who lost almost his entire family. And you know,

839
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: it was very much like, we want the good journalists,

840
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: We want the ones who respect our boundaries, you know.

841
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,439
Speaker 1: And I think that the Dallas Morning News reporter kept

842
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: up with them. And she goes back for the anniversaries

843
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: with no camera, no anything. They want to see an

844
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: investment in some way. And and you know, you don't

845
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 1: have time working for a network or a local station.

846
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: But we have to figure out how to make time,

847
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 1: is what I kind of concluded. But that's hard. And

848
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you, how do you know when?

849
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: How did you know when to get out? I mean

850
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 1: you still went for four more years? Yeah, how do

851
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,760
Speaker 1: you give up an opportunity that just thousands of people

852
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 1: would kill for to work for a network like that.

853
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the pandemic really pushed me over the edge.

854
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 2: I think, like a lot of people, it just challenged

855
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 2: my views of work and what you know, I wanted

856
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 2: my daily life to look like. And so the pandemic

857
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 2: was the first time that I wasn't traveling near constantly

858
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 2: for work and I was home with my family, and

859
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 2: I realized, you know, I kind of like these people.

860
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 2: I would like to be around more than just a

861
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 2: visiting cast member and always have a half packed suitcase

862
00:45:57,719 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 2: in the corner.

863
00:45:58,840 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: You know.

864
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: I just wanted to see could I tell stories and

865
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 2: be home most of the time. And you know, I

866
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 2: wanted a way out of the cycle that I was in,

867
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,800
Speaker 2: where I was juggling eight murder cases at a time,

868
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 2: looking at you know, my calendar, got to go for

869
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 2: this pre trial, hearing oh the trial's going to start here.

870
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 2: Oh this is where we're going to start filming, and

871
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 2: you know, it was just complete chaos, you know, and

872
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 2: I didn't want to live that way anymore. And so

873
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 2: I started thinking about projects that I could do in

874
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 2: the true crime space, because that's where I lived, and

875
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 2: that was my specialty and that was, you know, the

876
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 2: kind of stories that I knew so well and wanted

877
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 2: to tell. And so, you know, I started my podcast

878
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one, Final Days on Earth, and then

879
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 2: you know, I had the idea for the book, and

880
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: I had an idea for my own true crime docuseries

881
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 2: that's now in production that I sold to a cable network.

882
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 2: So I had these ideas that I wanted to do,

883
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 2: and none of them, you know, would be possible to

884
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:07,959
Speaker 2: do while I was still at CBS. So I knew

885
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 2: I had to leave to make space for other things

886
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 2: in my life, other good things. And you know, I'll

887
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 2: always be grateful to CBS for the years that I

888
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 2: spent there and the experience that I had and the

889
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 2: lessons that I learned. And I'm I know, I couldn't

890
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: be where I am today without that kind of experience,

891
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 2: and I'm you know, I'm glad that I was there,

892
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 2: but I'm very glad.

893
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 3: To have left.

894
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that wherever you work, whatever the

895
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: format is, you know, it sort of shapes what your

896
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: POV is for the narrative. I certainly when I had

897
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: worked in the past on crime stories like Gary Condon

898
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: and you know, some of these really big stories. I

899
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: think we were definitely more killer focused, and I have

900
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: worked really hard to now be victim focused. I think

901
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: learning about the killer, of course, is important, and it's

902
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 1: a lot a reason why a lot of people listen

903
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: to your show, my shows, because you know, they want

904
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: to know, they want to get inside the mind of

905
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: these people. But you know, at the same time, I

906
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 1: found myself becoming very desensitized to the stories that I

907
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: was telling, and when I started writing books and then

908
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 1: getting involved with you know, our network, exactly right network,

909
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 1: and you know, just in general, I really tried to

910
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: change my tune. And now, while it's uncomfortable for me,

911
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: I definitely lean into being not desensitized, because when you

912
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 1: do that, then they're characters, especially for me, they're in history,

913
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 1: but they still matter. And so was that kind of

914
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 1: a feeling that you would end up having too, I mean,

915
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,839
Speaker 1: there have to be some cases besides Parkland, even where

916
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: you just kind of went shit, I don't want to

917
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 1: do this, this is too hard. I don't want to

918
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,400
Speaker 1: talk about this mom who just lost her children or

919
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: or something like that.

920
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think talking to the victims' families over and

921
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 2: over again was a trauma. Yeah, you know, I wanted

922
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:00,919
Speaker 2: to be sensitive, I wanted to be empathetic, and I

923
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 2: feel like in a lot of ways, I got so

924
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 2: emotionally attached to these people that it probably wasn't the

925
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,720
Speaker 2: healthiest thing for me to be, you know, that close

926
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 2: to all of this trauma that wasn't mine. And I

927
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 2: think that was something that was really difficult for me,

928
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 2: is I felt so deeply for these moms who had

929
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,720
Speaker 2: lost their kids, and you know, it was just really

930
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 2: hard to not think about that and to not you know,

931
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 2: really take on a lot of their grief. And I

932
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 2: know that it wasn't mine to take on, yet just

933
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,800
Speaker 2: being in such close contact with them for so long,

934
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 2: it just started to feel really heavy. And even though

935
00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 2: I had developed like these friendships and these you know,

936
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 2: relationships and connections with them, it's still felt in some

937
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 2: ways like exploitative, like, you know, and I didn't want

938
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 2: to have to ask them for anything again, you know.

939
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 2: And so there's a lot of nuance and a lot

940
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 2: of complexity to it. I do think that many of

941
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 2: the victims' families found it to be cathartic to speak

942
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 2: to us and found that there was a way for

943
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 2: them to take back this story and to do something

944
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 2: good with it. You know, their foundations that people have started,

945
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 2: there's scholarships, there's nonprofits, and I think highlighting those, you know,

946
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 2: at the national level with the platforms that we have,

947
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 2: you know, really did positively impact those projects. And I

948
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 2: think that a lot of people who are faced with

949
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 2: this unbelievable tragedy and violence and complete turn in the

950
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 2: road are looking for a positive outlet for how they're

951
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 2: feeling and something new to channel their their energy into.

952
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 2: And so sometimes you know, those types of side projects

953
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 2: that they did in the name of their loved ones.

954
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 2: You know, that really was a silver lining to the

955
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 2: whole experience, and I felt good about the fact that

956
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 2: we could bring attention to that, but the whole on balance,

957
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 2: you know, having to call them to meet with them,

958
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 2: to try to convince them to go on national television

959
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 2: and talk about this murder. You know, that's that's a

960
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 2: very difficult thing to do.

961
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 1: Do you feel like the attorneys and I know you

962
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: had a lot of attorneys we had a WCBS, and

963
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 1: I found them mostly annoying, but that's because they were

964
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: doing their job. So you know, you've got all these attorneys,

965
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 1: You've got executives who are not working directly with these stories,

966
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: who are screening things and okaying, do you think that

967
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: they understood kind up the gravity of reporting on these

968
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 1: sorts of stories that are so kind of intimate and

969
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 1: they're violent and it's many times men murdering women. Do

970
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 1: you think they saw them as just sort of these

971
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: stories like a political story or anything else, or do

972
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: you think they all understood that this was these were

973
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 1: people's lives and you know, they needed to make responsible decisions.

974
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 2: I definitely don't think they all understood that. I think

975
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 2: it definitely varied attorney to attorney. I would say like

976
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 2: for the most part, it always felt very clinical with them,

977
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 2: like this was a job. This was professional, you know,

978
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 2: not an emotional thing. It was very rare for it

979
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 2: to feel like a personal, you know, emotional human thing.

980
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 2: For me. With the attorneys, it really felt like, well,

981
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 2: it was a fascinating case. This is so unusual from

982
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 2: a legal perspective, and I mean, it is all those things,

983
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 2: and maybe that's what you want in an attorney, you know,

984
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 2: like this dispassionate it legal mind, but it definitely was challenging,

985
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,280
Speaker 2: you know, as a producer and just as a human

986
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 2: being thinking about you know, these cases, and a lot

987
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 2: of times attorneys or police officers they would only really

988
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 2: have like one case like this in their career. This

989
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,839
Speaker 2: really over the top, you know, murder for hire, this

990
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 2: like cover up, you know, stage, crime scene, all these

991
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 2: different elements. This is not just a typical shooting where

992
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 2: someone died or you know, I mean it sounds funny

993
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 2: to say typical, but there's all kinds of murder out there, right,

994
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 2: and the like most common crime is just some sort

995
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 2: of misunderstanding, a robbery gone wrong, a drug deal gone wrong,

996
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 2: and you know, the gun goes off and people run, right.

997
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 2: But if we're doing an hour of television on it,

998
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 2: it's got lots more than that. And so you know,

999
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 2: I would find that these you know, attorneys or these

1000
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 2: police officers, they would be so captivated by the uniqueness

1001
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 2: of this one particular case that was rising to the

1002
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 2: attention of you know, the national television shows. But we

1003
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 2: would be working on cases like that every day, Yeah,

1004
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 2: because we would be going across you know, all all

1005
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 2: fifty states and you know, all these different counties and

1006
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 2: finding the weirdest, wildest crime that ever happened there, and

1007
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 2: so we would just go from extremely unusual, unique, bizarre,

1008
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 2: twisted murder case to another one that was, you know,

1009
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 2: just as compelling in a different way in a different city.

1010
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 2: And so I think, as the producers and the people

1011
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 2: working on this show, I feel like we saw more

1012
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:48,399
Speaker 2: of these twisted crimes than anyone else.

1013
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think one of the things I emphasize to

1014
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 1: journalism students and really journalists I work with too, that

1015
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 1: I've learned so much is, you know, when you do

1016
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 1: a story, a true crime story like this in a

1017
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 1: journalistic setting, that you must be able to explain clearly

1018
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: why this story will resonate with everyone. What is it

1019
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: that teaches us? And I do think that forty eight

1020
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:11,759
Speaker 1: hours does a great job. You know, I've watched the

1021
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 1: Bianca Devins story that they did probably four or five times,

1022
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 1: you know, which is about the murder of a four

1023
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 1: young woman who you know, her family is just still

1024
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: harassed constantly by online stalkers. And you know the Michelle Carter,

1025
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 1: who you know, had I think just got released a

1026
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 1: couple of years ago, Yeah, for encouraging her friend slash

1027
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 1: boyfriend to take his own life. These cases where you

1028
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 1: have to be able to say, this is what we

1029
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 1: learn from crime. This is why we're telling you the story.

1030
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,280
Speaker 1: It's not to shock you or to delate you or anything.

1031
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:48,359
Speaker 1: It's because you can learn something right. And I feel

1032
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 1: like that's the difference between a quality outlet that will

1033
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 1: tell you a story versus some of these streamers. While

1034
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: I'll watch and the title will be kind of icky,

1035
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: and I watch the family and then I'll see the

1036
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:03,840
Speaker 1: of the victims, and then I'll see the reenactments and go,

1037
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 1: I just don't think they would have liked this. Yeah,

1038
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 1: I don't think they would have signed off on this

1039
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 1: if they knew that it was going to be this graphic.

1040
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: So did you feel like that similarly, I mean in

1041
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 1: the world of true crime, where do you put forty

1042
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,240
Speaker 1: eight hours in actually any of the other network shows

1043
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 1: twenty twenty or Dateline or anything else? Where do you

1044
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: put them in the realm of icky true crime?

1045
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 2: You know, I always thought, you know, that we were

1046
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 2: doing true crime the right way, that we were telling

1047
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 2: the story responsibly, that we were you know, being an

1048
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 2: advocate for the victims, that we were trying to get

1049
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:38,800
Speaker 2: to the heart of the matter and to tell stories

1050
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 2: of justice being served, even you know, in the face

1051
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:47,760
Speaker 2: of tragic circumstances. You know, there's not more murder because

1052
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 2: there's shows about murder, but you know more about these

1053
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 2: murders because of the television shows. And I wanted to

1054
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 2: be part of, you know, shining a light in dark places,

1055
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 2: in doing the hard good work that goes into telling

1056
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 2: stories of life and death.

1057
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 3: I mean, what could be more impactful.

1058
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 2: I feel like, you know, as a journalist than to

1059
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 2: talk about you know, lives lost and you know the

1060
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 2: legacy that they leave behind, and I feel like there's

1061
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 2: a lot.

1062
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 3: Of good that goes on in these shows now.

1063
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 2: At the same time, I think every one of these

1064
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 2: shows is capable of going in the wrong direction. They're

1065
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 2: capable of covering a story that maybe they had no

1066
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 2: business covering that, you know, maybe they didn't give the right.

1067
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 3: Angle to you know.

1068
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I know that that happens, and I've seen

1069
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 2: it happen, and I've been part of it, and I've

1070
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 2: hated it. Right, So, I mean, it's a challenging thing

1071
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 2: to report on something as serious as murder, you know.

1072
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 2: I mean it's not something that I take lightly, and

1073
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 2: I don't think that Anyone who does this job the

1074
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 2: right way, you know, takes it lightly. But I think

1075
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 2: there's a certain level of like, once it becomes kind

1076
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 2: of groundhog Day and this is your job and it

1077
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 2: starts to seem normal to you, and you get desensitized

1078
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 2: to it. Yeah, And you know that's whenever I think

1079
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 2: you're in danger of, you know, being on the wrong side,

1080
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 2: the icky side of true crime.

1081
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1082
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,640
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

1083
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget There are

1084
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast Tenfold More

1085
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

1086
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Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

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Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexus

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Speaker 1: m Rosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode

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Speaker 1: was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer,

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Speaker 1: artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

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Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Listen to Wicked Words on the

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More Wicked, and

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Speaker 1: on Facebook at wicked words pod