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Speaker 1: Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hi, this is Sugar Steve from Quest Love Supreme. This March,

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Speaker 2: we're celebrating women's history at QLs, something that we've done

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Speaker 2: for years. Back in March of twenty twenty two, we

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Speaker 2: spoke to Terry Lynn Carrington about her years as a

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Speaker 2: jazz prodigy, some of the prejudice she faced as a

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Speaker 2: young female drummer playing with elder males, and how she

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Speaker 2: kicks down the doors for others as founder and artistic

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Speaker 2: director of the Berkeley Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice

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Speaker 2: as a jazz guy. I really enjoyed this episode. Whether

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Speaker 2: you heard it when it was first released or this

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Speaker 2: is your first time, we hope you enjoyed.

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Speaker 3: Ladies and gentlemen, another episode of Quest Loves Supreme. I'm

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Speaker 3: your host Quests Love. We got Team Supreme in the

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Speaker 3: hit House Fontigolo. Wow new If Bill Sherman were here,

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Speaker 3: he would notice that you're in yet another room in

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Speaker 3: the house.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this is my studio. It's just easier for me here.

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Speaker 4: I normally recording my living room, but my.

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Speaker 3: Son was going to school out uhstairs, so I just

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Speaker 3: bring it upstairs to the studio.

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Speaker 4: And do it here.

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Speaker 3: Wait, virtual school is still going on or is it

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Speaker 3: optional them as well?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's option.

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Speaker 4: We did it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he'll be going back to classroom for the junior year,

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Speaker 3: but for this.

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Speaker 4: Year it was just the numbers around here were crazy,

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Speaker 4: so we put him in virtual Smart. We gotta be

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Speaker 4: smart man. Uh, Steve, where are you at right now?

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Speaker 4: I'm where you are?

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Speaker 2: In the sixty seven degrees at thirty rock.

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Speaker 4: We're freezing in thirty rock right now.

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Speaker 6: And yeah, keep that covid out.

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Speaker 4: It's cold. I know. Yeah, I freeze the COVID out definitely. Uh.

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Speaker 4: Where are you at with black part behind you?

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Speaker 6: Lamert all day?

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Speaker 7: That's where I'm Yoh yeah, I forgot to tell you

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Speaker 7: was here.

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Speaker 4: I took my first visit to Lahmurt Park.

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Speaker 6: You know why I can't stand.

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Speaker 3: I only had only had like thirty five minutes to

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Speaker 3: run the Juneteenth.

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Speaker 6: He was at the June teen festival.

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Speaker 4: I think I was in a legit episode of Insecure. Yo.

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Speaker 6: Somebody told me they saw black thought I thought they

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Speaker 6: was lying.

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Speaker 4: It was awesome. Yeah. I went to uh juneteen for

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Speaker 4: half a second. Then I went to.

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Speaker 3: Uh the Body Rule party like in another side of

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Speaker 3: l a like Saturday.

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Speaker 4: Man, it was.

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Speaker 3: It was one of the nicest, blackest experiences I've ever

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Speaker 3: had in Los Angeles.

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Speaker 6: People don't know about that. I'm glad you said that.

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Speaker 4: I forgot. Yeah, you're you're a Lamert Parker. Did you

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Speaker 4: enjoy it?

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Speaker 6: I loved it?

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Speaker 7: This was an amazing Juneteenth weekend. I mean, thank god

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Speaker 7: we came through. It was looking sketchy for a minute

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Speaker 7: because of Walmart and then but it came through nicely.

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Speaker 4: Damn ice cream.

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Speaker 5: You know, Bill, you know Billy Higgins had the World

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Speaker 5: stage there, so you probably if this is kind of

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Speaker 5: a Lamert Park yeah, then you never experienced that. But

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Speaker 5: that was really dope back in the day. I'm learning.

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Speaker 3: I'm learning, well, you know, if we if we bring

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Speaker 3: the festival back to Los Angeles, I think we're going

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Speaker 3: to travel with it, so we're looking at like Texas

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Speaker 3: and other spots.

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Speaker 4: But I definitely want to do another student team. Oh god, yeah.

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Speaker 6: Yes, yes, did you did it?

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Speaker 4: You did well?

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Speaker 3: There's nothing exclusive about one in the spread the June

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Speaker 3: teaenth love a Round anyway, y'all. As I was saying,

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Speaker 3: you know, I would say that this year for me

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Speaker 3: has been an awesome year for bucket listing, and I'm checking.

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Speaker 4: I guess I could say I'm checking a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of my musical heroes, bringing them on the show and

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Speaker 3: neuro and out on them. And our guest today is

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Speaker 3: absolutely no exception. I'll say that she's probably the first

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Speaker 3: young person male or female, the first young person that

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Speaker 3: I ever saw on a drum set. And I guess

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Speaker 3: at the time when I first I forget the name

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Speaker 3: of the show was like on PPS, like Rebop or

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Speaker 3: something like that. I forget what it was, but it's

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Speaker 3: definitely one of those like local Boston shows or whatever.

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Speaker 3: And to see a young kid on a drum set

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Speaker 3: definitely made an impression on me when I was a kid,

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Speaker 3: I forget what year it was, like, I was like

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Speaker 3: six or seven when I first saw you.

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Speaker 4: I think you were like twelve, thirteen or whatever. But

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Speaker 4: she's literally done it all.

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Speaker 3: Grammy's college professor, two time late night band leader, activist, producer,

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Speaker 3: collaborated with such luminaries like the great Clark, Terry, Wayne Shorter,

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Speaker 3: Herbie Hancock.

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Speaker 4: I know that you have to be in the meditation

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Speaker 4: if you if you have.

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Speaker 5: If you collaborate with those two, but I'm a bad Buddhist.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's Ron's Spalding the whole mosaic project with you know,

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Speaker 3: Diana Crawl and and and the likes al Ji Rose,

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Speaker 3: Dan Gets Clark, Terry Wood he Shaw.

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Speaker 4: I can go on and on and on. This has

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Speaker 4: been a long time coming.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for your patience, because this is one of

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Speaker 3: these episodes where, you know, because of the courses and

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Speaker 3: the events of my life in the last month or so,

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Speaker 3: I've had to put this off at least three or

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Speaker 3: four times.

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Speaker 4: You've been very patient.

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Speaker 3: Finally I can say, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Quest

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Speaker 3: of Supreme Terry Lynn Carrington.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, Yes, I appreciate it.

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Speaker 5: Thank you.

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Speaker 4: How are you today?

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Speaker 5: I'm great. This is my pleasure talking to you. I'm

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Speaker 5: a big fan and I love everything that you do.

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Speaker 5: So the aberration is mutual.

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Speaker 3: We've never had an in depth, heart to heart like conversation.

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Speaker 3: So whenever I hear through other people like oh you know, Terrrisis,

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Speaker 3: what's up or whatever, you know it. Occasionally you've come by,

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Speaker 3: like I've seen you play a few gigs or whatever,

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Speaker 3: and I'm still mind blowing. Like there's there's always this

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Speaker 3: thing where you know, jazz musicians are so not above

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Speaker 3: the fray, but just like above whatever is below them

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Speaker 3: as far as pop music concern is concerned or whatever,

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Speaker 3: Like it's all one thing.

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Speaker 5: It's all black music, you know, Like I mean, it's

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Speaker 5: all comes from the blues. So there was something something

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Speaker 5: would be wrong with me if I didn't appreciate what

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Speaker 5: you did. You know, that would be like if any

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Speaker 5: you know, if I had a jazz friend, you know,

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Speaker 5: didn't appreciate you, I would be looking at them sideways.

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Speaker 4: Well, I thank you for that. I appreciate.

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Speaker 3: Where are you talking to this right now from you

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Speaker 3: have a very interesting background. It looks like a mall

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Speaker 3: in a prison. At the same time, I have.

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Speaker 5: A few backgrounds. I'm at home, but that's just my

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Speaker 5: Berkeley background. Here's another Berkeley background. Yes, here's an animated

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Speaker 5: one with I don't know who's that, Chicak Yoh's red

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Speaker 5: and Alice Coltrane. Just when I just want to see

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Speaker 5: Obama drop the mic when I'm missing my grandmother. Okay,

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Speaker 5: there's our slogan. You can't really see it, but it's

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Speaker 5: jazz without patriarchy. Oh, and this one you might recognize.

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Speaker 5: This is from soul because you know, I was a

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Speaker 5: consultant on soul.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I know, like they went above and

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Speaker 3: beyond the call of duty to ask every wow jazz

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Speaker 3: Luminaria for their for their advice.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it was fun doing that, was doing some meetings.

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Speaker 5: The first one Herbie was that I was probably the

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Speaker 5: only one in the room that you know, might have

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Speaker 5: a difference in opinion, you know, with Herbie and be

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Speaker 5: able to actually say it right, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 5: because everybody gets scared. So yeah, wow, here's my biggest mentor. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: So anyway, we.

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Speaker 6: Just had him on the show shorter.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah cool.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to say I was shocked at the amount

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Speaker 3: of feedback we got for that particular episode, like a

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Speaker 3: lot of heavy jazz heads hit us because kind of

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Speaker 3: thank you for asking questions that we nor like aren't

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Speaker 3: normally asked, you know, and other Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Just letting him talk, That's what we did.

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Speaker 4: We let him talk exactly.

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Speaker 5: That's the right thing.

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Speaker 3: So I'm gonna start with you, Terry, the way I

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Speaker 3: always start the episode. Can you tell me what your

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Speaker 3: first musical memory was?

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Speaker 5: Wow, you know, they happened so long ago that it's

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Speaker 5: kind of like a movie that I'm a part of

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Speaker 5: that I watched and it feels real because I watched it.

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Speaker 5: But was I really there? You know what I mean?

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Speaker 5: Like I played tambourine when I was five years old

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Speaker 5: on stage with Ross and Roland Kirk, and that was

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Speaker 5: probably the first time I was on stage.

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Speaker 4: How many saxophones did he play?

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Speaker 5: Always at least three until he had a stroke, and

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Speaker 5: then I'll see him after that, and then he played

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Speaker 5: with one hand, one of the saxophone, but he might

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Speaker 5: have even worked too with the one hand, right, No, any.

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Speaker 4: Of that's surreal to you. I mean, I'm with the movie.

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Speaker 3: Those kids that I see, especially kids that are I

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Speaker 3: guess you could say progeny of like other I know

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Speaker 3: that your father and your grandfather were musicians as well,

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Speaker 3: so oftentimes you know, at least there's a realization moment

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Speaker 3: of what you're really into, but that usually comes in

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Speaker 3: your teens. But in the beginning, it's just like, Hey,

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Speaker 3: this dad and this granddad and here's some musicians around

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Speaker 3: the house. Like, but anything strike you odd about this?

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Speaker 3: You know this this guy with dread or I don't

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Speaker 3: know if he had dread locks back then, but playing

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Speaker 3: three saxophones at the same time, Like, nothing seemed odd

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Speaker 3: about that to you.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but you know, when you're young, you don't really

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Speaker 5: pay attention to all that, Like you're just doing you

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Speaker 5: And I was having fun so and I was getting attention,

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Speaker 5: So I knew I was different from the other, you know,

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Speaker 5: elementary school kids that I was hanging out with, because

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Speaker 5: Ebony came to school to take pictures of me, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, I was affl after that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I mean from the black kids. You know,

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Speaker 5: there might have been I don't know, six or seven

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Speaker 5: in my class, so of course they knew what was happening.

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Speaker 5: The other kids, I'm not sure they knew what evan

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Speaker 5: it was.

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Speaker 4: But where did you grow up? Where were you born?

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Speaker 5: In Medford, Massachusetts?

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Speaker 3: How far is that from Boston to anyone outside of

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Speaker 3: New England, like Massachusetts, just like Boston, and then a

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Speaker 3: bunch of suburbs areas.

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Speaker 6: Where New Addition is from.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Roxburgh.

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Speaker 3: Whoa, Oh damn, you grew up in Roxburgh.

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Speaker 5: Oh hell, no, okay, you go to Roxburgh. But my

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Speaker 5: dad would remind me, you know, you're from West Medford,

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Speaker 5: but our area of town, West Medford was the most

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Speaker 5: heavily settled black area outside of Boston. So like, for instance,

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Speaker 5: in my high school's four thousand people in high school,

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Speaker 5: close to four thousand, and at a time when I

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Speaker 5: was in high school, there were three hundred and sixty

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Speaker 5: five black kids, which is not quite even ten percent.

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Speaker 5: But when we had lunch, you know, I'm sitting with

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Speaker 5: two hundred black kids, So it felt like it was,

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Speaker 5: you know, it was a black environment.

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Speaker 4: You know, for our circle, it was Boston, the south

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Speaker 4: of the North.

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Speaker 3: Again, like I'm so triggered by anything to do with Massachusetts,

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Speaker 3: I just naturally think that Massachusetts is just one of

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Speaker 3: these states that escaped you know, the Confederate you know,

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Speaker 3: just based on what we've learned about it. But like

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Speaker 3: in your childhood, was it like that at all?

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Speaker 5: Or I mean I came like right after the busing situation,

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Speaker 5: and there was like a bit of a riot at

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Speaker 5: my high school about you know, surrounded by some kind

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Speaker 5: of race or about some kind of racial incident. But

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Speaker 5: I haven't right before I got to high school, and

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Speaker 5: I mean, you know, I was going into Boston weekly.

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Speaker 5: At least. I got a scholarship to Berkeley when I

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Speaker 5: was eleven, and I was going weekly.

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Speaker 3: I got to say, you went to Berkeley while still

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Speaker 3: in in junior high school?

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Speaker 4: Correct, So I.

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Speaker 5: Was elementary when I started, but that I went once

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Speaker 5: a week. So it wasn't like that big deal. You know,

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Speaker 5: I went after school once a week and took private

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Speaker 5: lessons and ensemble deal special. But what I mean is

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Speaker 5: it wasn't like stressful.

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Speaker 4: Berkeley reject that's a big deal.

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Speaker 5: Well that's their loss, right.

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Speaker 4: Damn right. I'm not bitter at all.

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Speaker 5: But what I'm gonna say though, is, you know, Boston is,

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Speaker 5: in a weird way, is kind of the most liberal

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Speaker 5: and conservative places you'll ever be. It's a total, you know,

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Speaker 5: dichotomy of these things. And everybody hates the Celtics and

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Speaker 5: all that, but you know, nobody ever talks about how

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Speaker 5: we had the first black coach and one of the

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Speaker 5: first black players. Hmm.

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Speaker 6: I never thought that about the Celtics for real.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just saying, like, there's a lot

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Speaker 5: of things wrong racially with what's happened here, but you know,

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Speaker 5: there's it's it's not all bad. And there were, you know,

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Speaker 5: places like where I grew up, I had heavily populated

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Speaker 5: black areas, and it was very you know, rich in culture.

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Speaker 3: All right, So if ever the Patriots or the Celtics

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Speaker 3: went again, I'll add you to my new edition file. Like, Okay, well,

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Speaker 3: at least you seven are happy.

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Speaker 6: So universal health care? Mayor Massachusetts did that first too?

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Speaker 6: Remember free health care?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Yep.

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Speaker 5: I mean, you know, if you're from a place, there's

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Speaker 5: got to be some love, you know, Like I used to.

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Speaker 5: I used to hate to go to Philadelphia, but you know,

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Speaker 5: I got happier as I went, you know, so as

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Speaker 5: I learn more about the city. Really, you know, I

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Speaker 5: used to not like Chicago, you know whatever. I'm like,

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Speaker 5: you have these experiences, and it's just as you grow

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Speaker 5: you have the other experiences that can make a place.

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Speaker 5: I have some nostalgia at the very least you.

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Speaker 4: Didn't like traveling in general or.

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Speaker 5: Just yeah, I mean, well I liked it. Now I

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Speaker 5: don't particularly care for it. I have a love hate

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Speaker 5: relationship because I am happiest sometimes when I'm just in

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Speaker 5: a hotel room and can close the shades and no

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Speaker 5: block everybody out. I know, because I'm not dealing with Oh,

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Speaker 5: I got to fix this in my house. You know,

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Speaker 5: I come home and I get stressed. I'm like, oh

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Speaker 5: my god, I got that paint the house, I need

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Speaker 5: a new roof, you know, all those things start kicking in.

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Speaker 5: But when I'm away, I can just I can just

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Speaker 5: focus on whatever it is I'm doing.

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Speaker 7: Can I ask a question, because I just want to know,

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Speaker 7: you say, from the jump, jazz was in your life

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Speaker 7: in the sense that like no other you weren't even

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Speaker 7: as a kid in school, because I mean you said

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Speaker 7: Berkeley when you were eleven.

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Speaker 6: So I'm like, did anything.

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Speaker 7: Else ever get into the household, er into your ears

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Speaker 7: outside of the lot?

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Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, I mean I was. I mean I listened

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Speaker 5: to the radio, and I listened to you know, like

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Speaker 5: my father started me off listening to what he would

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Speaker 5: consume more rhythm and blues, which at the time we

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Speaker 5: were talking about the early seventies. But for him, like

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Speaker 5: he played in horn sections with James Brown and Ruth

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Speaker 5: Brown and people like that when he was in college,

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Speaker 5: and so that's the kind of music he started me

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Speaker 5: off listening to because he thought I would be able

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Speaker 5: to relate to that, you know, more than John Coletrain

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Speaker 5: and Miles Davis. So I was listening to lots of Oregon.

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Speaker 5: You know lots of blues Jack McDuff, Jimy McGriff, and

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Speaker 5: you know some rhythm and blues of course, James Brown,

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Speaker 5: Ray Charles Raytha Franklin. And those are the records, you know,

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Speaker 5: a lot of the records that I remember, you know,

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Speaker 5: as a kid.

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Speaker 3: Can you tell me the first out that you purchased

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Speaker 3: with your own money? Not just that around the house,

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Speaker 3: like oh, let me see what dad's James Brown's altmore

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Speaker 3: into but like, yeah.

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Speaker 5: You know, like I don't know if I purchased it,

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Speaker 5: but I think I must have asked my parents to

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Speaker 5: get get it for me, because I'm not sure they

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Speaker 5: would have. For whatever reason, I was obsessed. And I

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Speaker 5: remember I had one of those kids it was green too,

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Speaker 5: one of those kids, uh phonograph players that had a

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Speaker 5: little speaker built in.

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Speaker 3: Right post preschool or whatever, Fisher Price record players. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I feel like I know what this record or what

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Speaker 3: was the record?

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Speaker 5: Oh no, it was the Fifth Dimension. It was. I

333
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Speaker 5: was obsessed with Aquarius. H yeah, for some reason, the

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Speaker 5: age of the Aquarius, Like are you one? No no, no,

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Speaker 5: I'm a leo. Okay, I forget it for that being

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Speaker 5: the record.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm just saying, no,

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Speaker 3: it's for being a leo.

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Speaker 4: Get extra points if you're in a query for drumming.

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Speaker 3: Though, you know, I know that there's a sect of

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Speaker 3: people whose opinions are like, you know, at least for

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Speaker 3: ginger pairing, Like there are instruments that it probably deemed

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Speaker 3: that men should use only as far as masculine or

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Speaker 3: feminine whatever, like the women on drums really, in my opinion,

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Speaker 3: like an adjustment pre nineteen eighties. But at all, did

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Speaker 3: anyone ever discourage you, like, well, why don't you try

347
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Speaker 3: the piano or maybe a guitar, violin, yeah, clarinet, Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I don't you know, I don't know if anybody really

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Speaker 5: ever discouraged me. And I was, you know, I was

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Speaker 5: confident at a young age. So like, I think what

351
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Speaker 5: tells us story about that? For me, the best is

352
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Speaker 5: when I met Buddy Rich for the first time. I

353
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Speaker 5: was ten. I was a guest with Clark Terry Nice. Well,

354
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Speaker 5: that was the thing. Everybody said, stay away from him,

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Speaker 5: he's in a really bad mood. And I didn't care,

356
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Speaker 5: and I went up to him anyway, And so then

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Speaker 5: somebody stepped in and said, well, let me introduce you.

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Speaker 5: To young Terry. She's a guest with Clark Terry. And

359
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Speaker 5: he said, oh, yeah, you better not be any good.

360
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Speaker 5: And I just looked at him and said, well, who's

361
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Speaker 5: going to stop me?

362
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Speaker 6: Oh?

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Speaker 5: And then he said he kind of took a step back,

364
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,040
Speaker 5: and then he said, you want to come play with

365
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Speaker 5: my band? Oh? You see what I mean?

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Speaker 6: Flax flax?

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Speaker 5: No, but it well, it wasn't that it was beautiful flax.

368
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Speaker 5: Well yeah, because I think it's how you're raised and

369
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Speaker 5: I was raised that this is my music.

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Speaker 6: Where did that confidence come from? Terry?

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Speaker 7: Like, do you remember, like did your parents something say

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Speaker 7: to you, like the impetus of that, Like, I think.

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Speaker 5: It's who you are. And that's why I do so

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Speaker 5: much gender equity work now because every woman shouldn't have

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Speaker 5: to be like me. I would go ahead to head

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Speaker 5: with any man, you know what I mean. And I'm

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Speaker 5: not intimidated by anyone. I can be I can be shy,

378
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,720
Speaker 5: and I can be insecure. Of course, we're all insecure.

379
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,359
Speaker 5: If I was playing a gig next to you, I

380
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,800
Speaker 5: would be insecure, especially if I had to play the groove,

381
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:26,680
Speaker 5: I'd be like, oh man, he's sitting next to me.

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Speaker 3: You're talking about sugar Steve and his engineering skills.

383
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Speaker 5: What I'm just saying, No, I'm serious, and so I'm

384
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Speaker 5: just saying that doesn't mean I think you can be

385
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Speaker 5: confident and that be a part of your personality, which

386
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Speaker 5: doesn't mean there's these other things that you know aren't

387
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 5: there as well. But you shouldn't have to be like

388
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 5: me to make it, you know, you shouldn't have to

389
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 5: have that kind of personality as a woman to to

390
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Speaker 5: have the opportunity or the access or mentorship or apprenticeships.

391
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Speaker 5: And so that's you know, when I realized that. That's

392
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Speaker 5: when I because I had been looking at women saying, well,

393
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Speaker 5: what do you mean just do it? You know, like,

394
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Speaker 5: what do you mean just later for them? You know,

395
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 5: like something discourage you, that should give you more impetus

396
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,600
Speaker 5: to you know, And then I realized, you know, they

397
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,439
Speaker 5: have a nervous breakdowns and shit, you know, like so

398
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,280
Speaker 5: I had to look at it differently.

399
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Speaker 6: Because everybody doesn't have a foundation.

400
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,520
Speaker 7: Because you still had some type of foundation to let

401
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,720
Speaker 7: you know that that is the way to think, and

402
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,880
Speaker 7: these women didn't have that, so.

403
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,720
Speaker 5: And they don't need to. That's the whole thing. We're

404
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,159
Speaker 5: all different. You know, we don't have to be I

405
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,679
Speaker 5: was nothing around nothing but men playing, you know, for

406
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,760
Speaker 5: a long time, and so I ended up kind of

407
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 5: acting like them, you know, and not be you know,

408
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 5: having a problem being around man all the time. So

409
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 5: I think that, you know, we should celebrate our differences.

410
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 5: And what does a woman's aesthetic sound like in the music?

411
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,520
Speaker 5: You know, I think that's the question we should start

412
00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 5: to ask.

413
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 3: I don't think I've ever went public on record with

414
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:13,720
Speaker 3: In high school, I once had a masterclass kind of

415
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:20,399
Speaker 3: session with a well known patriarch of jazz music.

416
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Speaker 4: I guess you could say he was a.

417
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,440
Speaker 3: Total dick, And you know, that's actually where I was

418
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 3: leaning towards it. Like especially, there's a there's a generation

419
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,919
Speaker 3: of cats who were sort of in the game in

420
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,199
Speaker 3: the fifties and the sixties and the seventies, who you know,

421
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,119
Speaker 3: don't mince words at all. They don't suffer any fools.

422
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 3: They're very blatant and honest or whatever. And this guy

423
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 3: just tore me up, man like everything. I didn't even

424
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:49,679
Speaker 3: get on the set, and he just looked at the

425
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 3: loud shirt I was wearing, look at my hair. It's like,

426
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,919
Speaker 3: oh see, I wouldn't hire you because your hair is

427
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 3: just like a girl's right now, you know, with that

428
00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:59,879
Speaker 3: with them snakes in your hair or whatever, and like

429
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:04,399
Speaker 3: he was just going in and I remember like after

430
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 3: that day, that day, I like distinctively remember like I'm

431
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,480
Speaker 3: not going the young lion route because you know, I

432
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 3: went to school with Christian McBride and Joey at Performing

433
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 3: Arts High School, and so I was on that that

434
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 3: sort of track every day trying to keep up with

435
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,199
Speaker 3: those two and become a young lion, like, you know,

436
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 3: because all those cats in Philly were just like even

437
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 3: in high school, like doing sessions and what I you know,

438
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 3: I had the opposite reaction.

439
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,360
Speaker 4: I actually that kind of like just got in my.

440
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 3: Head and you know, maybe like a year later, that's

441
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 3: when I decided, Okay, I'm gonna go to the roots

442
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 3: route because you know, he told me that I don't

443
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 3: look like a serious jazz cat, and you know it's

444
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 3: I'm I'm I'm glad you can buy him, right.

445
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:00,119
Speaker 5: I love to say, where was you?

446
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 7: No?

447
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 4: No this this?

448
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 3: You know, this guy's a legacy god in the world

449
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 3: of jazz right now, you know, no longer with us, but.

450
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 5: You don't want to you don't want to name his name.

451
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 4: You know, hey, dogs Marcellus, I'll just let it out.

452
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 5: Well, I just mean, you know, he was, you know,

453
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 5: very kind to me. Actually he coached us once.

454
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 4: But I feel like you're a disarming person.

455
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 3: I feel like at the age of ten, you were

456
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,439
Speaker 3: very disarming with anyone that you met, you know, that

457
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:37,239
Speaker 3: would encourage you.

458
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think that that's helped, you know, with

459
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 5: the gender equity work now, because I'll get a lot

460
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 5: of older musicians calling me saying, you know, I guess

461
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 5: I've been an old fart or you know, thanks for

462
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 5: pointing this out. But you know, the bottom line is

463
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 5: he shouldn't have to be that, and people should recognize

464
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 5: what they're doing. And there are a lot of older

465
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 5: musicians that basically bought into this, you know, patriarchy and

466
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 5: brought brought into the hyper masculinity. And what I'm finding

467
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 5: is there's a lot of young musicians from teaching at Berkeley,

468
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 5: a lot of young male musicians that aren't digging the

469
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 5: hyper masculinity. So they actually come to our institute because

470
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 5: some people get it twisted and think that our institute

471
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 5: is for women musicians or non binary musicians. It's a

472
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 5: space that they can come and make mistakes and learn

473
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 5: the music without having their guard up. But we have

474
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 5: about fifty percent young men in our institute as well,

475
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 5: because they're rejecting the hyper masculinity in jazz as well.

476
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 5: And I think that we're really seeing a turning point

477
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 5: right now. It's starting to really shift, and I think

478
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 5: that the music needs that for it to live up

479
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 5: to its full potential.

480
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 7: So let me ask you, as a professor, then this

481
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 7: is about the patriarchy, because how do you since it

482
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,479
Speaker 7: was an art form built on that, doesn't it come

483
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 7: to a certain point where you're at an impact ask

484
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 7: and explaining and you know, because I feel like we're

485
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 7: in this point too of sometimes either that's what it

486
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 7: was and we're trying to change it, or how do

487
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 7: we make that still legendary even though that was a problem,

488
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 7: Like how do we keep that?

489
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 5: You know, the patriarchy was patriarchy was never good. It

490
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 5: wasn't good for anybody, right It's white, white male patriarchy

491
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 5: to be specific. But you know, I think that the

492
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 5: oppressed learned how to oppress without trying. It's just, you know,

493
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 5: that's what happens. And I felt I feel like this

494
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 5: was you know, this is just you know, my opinion,

495
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 5: but I feel like jazz was a space for black

496
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 5: men to uh, you know, really feel freedom, right black

497
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 5: men exactly, you know, because I mean, well you go back,

498
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 5: you know, I've talked to Angela Davis about this and

499
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 5: different people, because when slavery ended, you know, black people

500
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 5: couldn't travel, right, they you couldn't go anywhere. And then

501
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 5: when slavery ended and there was a little bit of freedom,

502
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 5: the first one I think that people took advantage of

503
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 5: was being able to move, you know, being able to

504
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 5: to go to another town and you know, whether you're

505
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 5: playing on the street or in a juke joint or

506
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 5: wherever you could bring your guitar and you could. But

507
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 5: it wasn't safe still for women to do that, okay, okay, okay,

508
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 5: And these places were not places respectable women should women

509
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 5: should be in.

510
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 6: But they were there enjoying the music though.

511
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 5: They Yeah, but not all women, you know, brothels and

512
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 5: the music was in these places. So yeah, so it

513
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 5: was that's what the music kind of where it was birthed, right,

514
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 5: So it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't spaces necessarily for

515
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 5: women to discover their artistic uh you know, the discover

516
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 5: that they could actually do this. So they were always

517
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 5: off to the side in the house, in the church wherever,

518
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 5: you know, and of course playing piano. And that's why

519
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 5: I think that's so acceptable. You know, women always play

520
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 5: piano in the house in the church.

521
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 4: Right.

522
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 5: So then when women started traveling and getting into you know,

523
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 5: music and the blues, a lot of it was as singers, right,

524
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,479
Speaker 5: as vocalist. Then you have like you know, Bessie Smith

525
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 5: and Mamie Smith and you know, some of the first

526
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 5: blues women my Rainy, but they became also like sexualized,

527
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 5: and they had you know, they were entertainers. You know,

528
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 5: it wasn't necessarily as considered serious work. Musicians were doing

529
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 5: the serious. You know. It was like, let's commodify this.

530
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 5: We can commodify this, you know, woman standing up front

531
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 5: singing the blues more than we can commodify the dude

532
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 5: with the guitar kind of singing the blues. So those

533
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 5: blues singers, the women, they sold more records, you know,

534
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 5: but Bessie Smith was selling yeah. So my point is

535
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 5: it started off like that, and you know then later

536
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 5: of course, in the forties when the war happened, all

537
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 5: the women emerged playing because so many men were gone.

538
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 5: What blows my mind is that when they came back

539
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 5: from the war, it seemed like the women disappeared, you know,

540
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 5: it came back to the you know, those practices, and

541
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 5: none of this really you know, surprises me. Like when

542
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 5: I look up, I was ignorant to the story of

543
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 5: Liberia and I just kind of found out about that

544
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 5: the return. Yeah. Yeah. And like when I saw some

545
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 5: footage of all the black people with the top hats

546
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 5: and looking trying to look British and then colonizing basically

547
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 5: the Africans, I'm like, well, why would I expect anything

548
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 5: different in jazz? I mean, you know what I mean,

549
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 5: it's kind of we're in music. You know, it's like

550
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 5: you're oppressed. You just like that, you take that nature, yeah, exactly,

551
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 5: without even knowing it's wrong sometimes.

552
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 4: So do you feel like the age.

553
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 3: Of the abusive, like and where we are now, like

554
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 3: hip hop is is changing where you know, there's a

555
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 3: sort of like a slow seed change of a lot

556
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 3: of toxic attitudes that were long associated with hip hop.

557
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 3: You know, we're now just starting to see the seeds

558
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 3: of it growing, and you know, I will will assume

559
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 3: that if it's still a thing in the fifties and sixties,

560
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 3: twenty fifties, twenty sixty, that we'll see a total turnaround.

561
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 3: But like kind of the the age of the abusive

562
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 3: actor and Whiplash.

563
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 4: Oh whipla J K.

564
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 3: Simmons, How abusive he was?

565
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 4: Whiplash? When you see Matt it was? Was that to you?

566
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 4: Was it triggering?

567
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 5: Yeah? I didn't see Whiplash, you know what.

568
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 3: Everyone when Whiplash came out, Literally everyone asked me about it.

569
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 5: People one about the drummer too, right, the one that

570
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 5: was lost his hearing.

571
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 3: I didn't see that was the one with your boy.

572
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 4: Uh about to say Freddie Mercury.

573
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 5: Uh, yeah, but I saw that.

574
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 4: The sound of metal, that's the name of that movie,

575
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 4: is amazing. That is great.

576
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 5: Yeah. I have so many thoughts, you know, about that,

577
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 5: But the first one that just came to my mind is, damn,

578
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 5: how do I say this politically correct? I just mean, like,

579
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 5: you know, I'm not so attracted to uh, you know,

580
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 5: white dude suffering from some drum lessons. It just feels

581
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 5: a little like.

582
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 4: This goddamn from the Book of.

583
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 6: Trauma by trauma.

584
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 5: I just mean, like, yeah, you know, so like for me,

585
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 5: like there's a lot more suffering that I'm gonna focus

586
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 5: on if I spend any part of my days dealing

587
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 5: with that. I'm glad he made a movie and the

588
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 5: drums are in it and that people liked it. But

589
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 5: you know, he could walk away probably a lot easier

590
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 5: than you know, somebody else. And he actually, if you know, historically,

591
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 5: he has all the tools to you know, fight back

592
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 5: a little more than some of us. So I don't know,

593
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 5: but anyway, uh, just as far as that whole method

594
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 5: of teaching, I mean, yeah, this this of course, like

595
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 5: I had like a well known drummer who's passed away

596
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 5: and who was my teacher, and he threw a book

597
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 5: at me once, but he said, you know, he was

598
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 5: frustrated with his career and he quit teaching right after that.

599
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 5: He was teaching at Berkeley, and he said, you're playing

600
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 5: my ship. You're not supposed to play my ship.

601
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 7: And then he that yeah, you know, because I was

602
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 7: just thinking that's got to be something for all these.

603
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's okay because I saw him, and

604
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 5: we you know, I had a beautiful time hanging out before,

605
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 5: you know, shortly before he passed, and he was living

606
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 5: in Europe and it was Keith Copeland. Uh, you know,

607
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 5: so it's like I didn't even I loved him, and

608
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 5: I felt like he loved me, and I never I

609
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 5: think my parents were a little more upset about it

610
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 5: than me, you know, because I just I shrugged it off,

611
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 5: you know, that was I think that's been my way.

612
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 5: And that's another thing I just wanted to point out,

613
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 5: since we're talking about it, everything that's happened, like anything negative,

614
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 5: I've had to shrug it off. For me, I had

615
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 5: to just act like it didn't happen, to keep moving

616
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 5: and you know, beating in my brain double that's not

617
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 5: gonna stop me, you know what I mean. Like, and

618
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 5: so then you look back and it's hard, you know,

619
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 5: you start thinking, like when I started playing with Esperanza

620
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 5: and Jerry Allen, they started talking about, Oh, this feels good,

621
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 5: like this is a space where man, I can let

622
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,719
Speaker 5: my hair down. I don't have, you know, I'm not

623
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 5: what's the word. Uh, you know, there's a like a

624
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,719
Speaker 5: protective layer face armor. Well, I was trying to think

625
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 5: of how Es Browns will put it and she just

626
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 5: started talking about an armor that she was able to

627
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,239
Speaker 5: let go of, and then Jerry was agreeing, and I

628
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 5: was only once sit there saying hmmm, like really, oh okay, cool, Well,

629
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 5: whatever works for you. It took me years after that

630
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 5: to understand, oh, I have those issues too, but I

631
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 5: just sweep him under the rug so well that I

632
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 5: don't deal with it because it's just it's not useful

633
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 5: to me.

634
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 6: I thought you were like the most free individual I

635
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 6: ever met.

636
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

637
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 4: I was about to say, this is very unusual. Yeah,

638
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 4: what do you mean.

639
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 3: No, I'm just saying, so many people plant seeds, and

640
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 3: you know, they plant seeds of doubt in your head

641
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 3: and you live with it. And I just love the

642
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 3: fact that that wasn't even like you just duct it

643
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 3: like a boxer.

644
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 6: But it goes somewhere, exactly, it goes somewhere. And that's

645
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 6: what she's saying. That's why I know.

646
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 7: That's why I take back what I said, because I'm like, oh,

647
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 7: she puts it somewhere. It ain't.

648
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 6: Yeah.

649
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 5: Well, I mean I wasn't conscious of it though, because

650
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 5: you know, you know what I'm saying, and so that's

651
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 5: just a layer. That is the way I see it.

652
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 5: It's just hard enough to learn how to play music,

653
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 5: any kind of music, but jazz. I mean, it's really

654
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 5: fucking hard, right, So who wants that extra burden? Who

655
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 5: wants that extra layer of Oh? And I have to

656
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 5: deal with this, you know, like somebody hit on you know,

657
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 5: I don't. I don't get hit on a whole lot,

658
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 5: you know, without wanting to. But you know, if a

659
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 5: band leader hit on me in the middle of a

660
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 5: rehearsal or you know, I would just be like, oh man, really, well,

661
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 5: you know, fantasies are good, Let's go back to playing,

662
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 5: you know whatever. And I never thought for one minute

663
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 5: I'm thinking of somebody, and I'll say it, it was

664
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 5: Stan Getz. And I never thought for a minute that

665
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 5: it meant that I would lose the gig. And then

666
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 5: when I start talking to these young people, all of

667
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 5: that is going through their brain.

668
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, all of us going through their brain. And

669
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 6: they're not standing for it.

670
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 5: Well no, but now, but I'm talking about five ten

671
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 5: years ago.

672
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 6: You know, we just had to suck it out. You

673
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 6: just suck you just yeah, you just.

674
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 5: They were wondering, well what do I do? Like, you know,

675
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 5: am I going to lose the gig or you know how,

676
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 5: and they start thinking. I realized, Wow, that never crossed

677
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 5: my mind. I told him, you know how to let's

678
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 5: go with rehearse, you know, and it never crossed my

679
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 5: mind that he would hold it against me.

680
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 7: So that means technically, you've never been disappointed by your

681
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 7: heroes in that way.

682
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 5: Oh maybe not in that way, you know, not. I mean,

683
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 5: you know, I'm sorry, I just had a flashback. But

684
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 5: even that, you know, like if somebody, you know, you,

685
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 5: you know, somebody's over your house, you come out and

686
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,959
Speaker 5: they're like sitting there naked or something, you know, even

687
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 5: that would make me laugh, you know.

688
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 7: I know.

689
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 6: It depends on the legend. It could be real sad

690
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 6: though Terry. It could be like, damn, come on man.

691
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, but you know, there's a lot of love, and

692
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 5: I think that black women have historically taken in consideration

693
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 5: all these things. And I'm like, as long as I

694
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 5: don't feel like, you know, you're about to physically harm me,

695
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 5: then I'm not really worried about it, you know. But

696
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 5: what I'm what I keep trying to say is you

697
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 5: shouldn't have to be that way. She shouldn't have to

698
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,479
Speaker 5: go through the extra burden, and that's what I will

699
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 5: then take somebody down for. So I have to talk

700
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 5: myself off a ledge now all the time. But that's

701
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,800
Speaker 5: for other people. For some of my students, I'm like,

702
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 5: they say what, and I'm like, trying to go to

703
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 5: the runt of the school and beat somebody down. I'm like, Okay,

704
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 5: we can't do that, right, you know, I got to, like,

705
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 5: now try to intelligently talk to this person or use language.

706
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, Terry, I always wanted to know simply

707
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 3: because I'm I'm I'm so drenched in hip hop.

708
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 4: I have to be a shape shifter.

709
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 3: In other words, any track I hear, my first question

710
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 3: I'm asking is how would DJ Premier program this, or

711
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 3: how would see FERRONI drum on this?

712
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 4: Or how would Tony Williams play this or whatever?

713
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 3: So oftentimes, you know, I'm shape shifting kind of in

714
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 3: the name of being a human sampler. But when you're

715
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 3: starting to drum, who is the who's the drummer? Who

716
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 3: sound that you were most attracted to when you first

717
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 3: started based on you know, you left Arcinio a thing

718
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 3: in eighty nine, so based on your simple work, always

719
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 3: thought that Tony Williams might have been in your north Star.

720
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 3: But you know, for you, who were your three gods

721
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 3: of drumming that you had in your mind when you

722
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 3: were drumming.

723
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 5: Well, at the end of the day, it became well,

724
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 5: let me see, when I was eighteen seventeen, it was

725
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 5: Jack de Jeannette, and he became my biggest mentor. I

726
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 5: purposely stayed away from trying to mimic Tony Williams and

727
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 5: Elsen Jones to a degree too, because their styles are

728
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 5: so individual that if I hear somebody playing like them,

729
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 5: it sounds like a caricature of them more than anybody else,

730
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 5: I think, because their styles are so strong.

731
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 3: So even when you're playing with Herbie or Wayne or Combo,

732
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 3: it's the temptation to not.

733
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 4: Go there doesn't.

734
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 5: Hit you at all, no, it Unfortunately, when I played

735
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 5: with Herbie, especially in the earlier years, well, see the

736
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 5: thing is, you know I played in six or seven

737
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 5: different bands of Herbie's, so you know he's supporting, yeah, exactly.

738
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 5: So it was the first, the first long, you know,

739
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 5: term gig I had with him. We were supporting this

740
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 5: is the drum, and then I had to play these

741
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 5: grooves like with uh, with computers, you know, which I

742
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 5: had never done.

743
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 7: Uh.

744
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 5: And then uh, you know, Trio Quartet and then Gersha

745
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 5: was well just those were more acoustic. But then the

746
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 5: The Future of the Future, which you know, was more

747
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 5: It had you know, some hybrid hip hop stuff in

748
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 5: there as well, but it was all, you know, mostly grooves.

749
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 5: So when I was playing straight ahead in the beginning, yeah,

750
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 5: Tony Williams would creep out because I realized whenever I

751
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 5: heard Herbie from all the records, it was mostly Tony

752
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 5: playing with him. So that is the sound, you know,

753
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 5: my spirit related to Hervey, which was interesting because he

754
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 5: told me that Jack Deson it was his favorite drummer

755
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 5: and that's like my guy, yeah yeah, back then, yeah,

756
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 5: and that's my guys.

757
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 4: So Tony.

758
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 3: So Jackie's net was Tony's sort of north starts as

759
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 3: far as.

760
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 5: No, no, no, I'm saying, Herbie told me. Herbie said that

761
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 5: that Jack was his favorite drama overt. Yeah, that's what

762
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 5: he told me. Wow, okay to play with this is

763
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 5: you know, after you know, many years after that plastic

764
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 5: Miles David Quintest so he if you notice, I mean

765
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 5: he hired jack On. You know, some of his records.

766
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 5: But anyway, so I thought, oh, this that's my guy.

767
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 5: So I'm good. You know, that's great, that's who that's

768
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 5: my north star. But then once I started playing all this,

769
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 5: Tony snuck in, you know, which is interesting just because

770
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 5: having heard him with Herbie all those years.

771
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 3: What is because a lot of the Jack stuff that

772
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,280
Speaker 3: I heard was more like fusing, like his seventies fusion

773
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 3: work or whatever. How like for me, Tony is so

774
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 3: heavy on symbol work that you automatically and his ability

775
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 3: to stop time and just you know, for listeners today

776
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 3: that you know, I guess you can say that sort

777
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 3: of the way that Chris Dave's relationship with time, where

778
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 3: you know, it doesn't exist in his world, but it exists,

779
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 3: but it doesn't exist. Tony was sort of you know

780
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 3: that way straight ahead. But what do you think that

781
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 3: Jack's trademark.

782
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 5: Was, Well, I think I disagree a little bit about

783
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 5: Tony in the time existing and not existing because I

784
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 5: feel like, you know, Tony's beat was pretty, it was beautiful.

785
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 5: It was so beautiful his time feel.

786
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 3: Oh no, he would say on rhythm, but do all

787
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 3: these counter rhythms that, yeah, but.

788
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 5: That's to me mathematics, you know what I mean, Like

789
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 5: the counter rhythms, it's polyrhythms. There's things that work within

790
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 5: the structure of a beat. And so what attracted me

791
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 5: to Jack was the opposite of that, you know, of

792
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 5: the time being elastic and like hear him on this

793
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 5: all it's slinky like a snake. You know, it's in

794
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 5: his touch. You know, I can tell Jack within a

795
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 5: second of hearing him, you know, on any recording, because

796
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 5: it's his touch. Any great drummer, you're right, it's the

797
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 5: rise symbol. You know, any great jazz drummer, their their

798
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 5: identity lives in their rise symbol. Now, some people like Tony,

799
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 5: like a lot of great drummers like Tony, like Art Blakey,

800
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:37,280
Speaker 5: Max Rusch. Also part of their identity is what they've

801
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 5: you know, developed soloing, so their their licks. There are

802
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 5: things that are signature, right, So there are signature licks

803
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 5: that you can say that Art Blakey, or Tony Williams

804
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 5: or Philly Joe Jones. But with Jack it's not really

805
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 5: signature licks. There's no licks. It's like it's all more

806
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 5: organic and the same thing. All my favorite drummers, Roy Haynes,

807
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,760
Speaker 5: it all begins and ends with Roy Haynes. He's the hippos.

808
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:01,399
Speaker 5: Jaz I was. I was so glad.

809
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 7: She said that, oh God, my dad would be so glad.

810
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 7: She said that, I just want to say this real quick.

811
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 7: I'm sorry, I mean to interrupt y'all, but for some

812
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 7: of us, eighty nine is when you ended our Senio.

813
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 7: It's a whole generation of other folks that go from

814
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 7: my father who go little Terry that was Rory Haynes's

815
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 7: protag and all that. So it was just for me,

816
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 7: I'm continue on Terry Ipoplois.

817
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, it's beautiful, you know, just a sidebar. His

818
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 5: son sent me a video last night of his granddaughter daughter,

819
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 5: which would be Roy's great granddaughter. They had been asking

820
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 5: if she had been asking for sticks, and he finally

821
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 5: about this little kid. She's three little kids set and

822
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 5: sticks and it was the first time you ever held

823
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 5: a pair of sticks. And she was like and she

824
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,399
Speaker 5: ended and flipped the sticks and put him under her arm.

825
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 5: He was like, you're the first person I'm sending.

826
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 3: This to for our listeners that don't know. Roy Haynes

827
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 3: is probably the the elder statesman I think between him.

828
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 4: Roy's ninety seven or ninety eight, still playing, still playing

829
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 4: like forty something. Yes, that's crazy, like it's nothing you know, and.

830
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,439
Speaker 3: You know and and with and his son Graham and

831
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 3: and whatever like literally.

832
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 7: Yes, just mentioned he taught my dad too. That's why

833
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 7: he's so important to him to geniuses.

834
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 5: Who's your dad?

835
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 7: His name is Ron Saint Clair. But my dad had

836
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 7: a nephew that he taught, named Dennis Davis.

837
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 5: So we're just a fan. Oh yes, yeah, dunnis to

838
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 5: play with Stevie.

839
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 4: Yes self slaying me. Were you part of the in

840
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 4: bass circle?

841
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,439
Speaker 5: Yeah? I was there when Steve named it, like he said,

842
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 5: I came up with this thing, you know, macro dash

843
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 5: basic Array of structural extis. I was like, good luck,

844
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 5: let's see if that's going anyway.

845
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 4: I did I know BASE was an acronym.

846
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 5: What is it for macro ah Basic array of structural extemporizations.

847
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 4: Deep?

848
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 5: But yeah, we have a We did a record which

849
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 5: I think was really the beginning of M BASE that

850
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 5: never came out. It was for Gramma Vision. It was Graham,

851
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 5: the horn section was Graham, greg osby Steve and h

852
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 5: Whoman missed and it was four Robin you Banks and

853
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 5: then the rhythm section was Vernon Reed, Jerry Allen, Me

854
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 5: and Kevin Harris. Yeah.

855
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 3: Oh man, you just opened up a door because I

856
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 3: had a manager who was one of the top jazz

857
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 3: DJs at Temple RTI in Philadelphia, and you know, in

858
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 3: his mind, like m base was the future, which is

859
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 3: the reason why like a lot of MBASE, including like

860
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 3: Cassandra and everybody like was on our first view records.

861
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 3: Did you at the time when you're in this movement,

862
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 3: did you feel as though, like, Okay, we are the

863
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 3: new generation, we're the native tongues, We're gonna you know,

864
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 3: push forward. How much pushback at the time from like

865
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 3: jazz traditionalists were you getting?

866
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 5: H Well, you know when that started, Like I moved

867
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 5: shortly thereafter to La to do the Arsenial Hall. So

868
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 5: actually I was moving anyway, and then I got the

869
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 5: show and that just made my move have to happen.

870
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 5: In a week, I was out there looking for apartments.

871
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 5: I was staying with Patris Russian And.

872
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 4: What was the aficial process, Like, you just dropped a

873
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 4: lot in that one sentence.

874
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 6: You sure did. He has another former guest of Quest left.

875
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 5: Spree right, Yes, yeah, yeah, So I was playing with

876
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 5: Wayne Shorter at the time. So, and Diane Reeves was

877
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 5: my best friend. She lived in LA. I met her

878
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 5: at that same time when I Clarke Terry. So she

879
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 5: was nineteen and I was ten. We were both guessed

880
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 5: with Clark that time when I told you about the

881
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 5: Buddy Rich store. So when I went to LA and

882
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 5: you know, with hers, with Wayne we went to Japan,

883
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 5: I would just stop in LA and stay for a

884
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 5: while and stay with Diane and then in Patrise and

885
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 5: Patrise she was on joy Rider, you know, with us.

886
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 5: So it was around that time, and so the three

887
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 5: of them convinced me to move to LA. So this

888
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 5: was the end of eighty eight. So I went right

889
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 5: around Thanksgiving to LA and looked for an apartment. And

890
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 5: then somehow it was Nary, Michael Walden and Patrise maybe

891
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 5: one other person that recommended me for the Arsenio Hall show.

892
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 5: And so I went in and I just played a

893
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 5: couple of tunes with them and I got the gig.

894
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 5: But they were like, you got to be back here

895
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 5: next week we start taping, you know, we start next

896
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 5: week the day after New Year's Uh. So I had

897
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 5: a week to go home and pack up in Fort

898
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 5: Green and it was to Glendale, California. But yeah, I

899
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 5: stayed with Patrise while I was looking. So the audition

900
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 5: process wasn't very I don't even know how many drummers

901
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 5: they had they had audition.

902
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 4: Uh Sanders, okay, keep play funk, play jazz.

903
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know, Michael Wolf was there. It wasn't

904
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 5: it wasn't any heavy funk, you know what I mean.

905
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 5: It wasn't any Yeah, but it was a good, great experience,

906
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 5: you know, and I feel like it set me up,

907
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 5: you know, more for doing the Vibe TV show with

908
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 5: very filling games, and that was you know, more more

909
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 5: of of a band that could play with anybody. So

910
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 5: like we played with James Brown, we played with Aliyah,

911
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 5: we played with Destiny's Child, we played with uh, I

912
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 5: don't know, Rick, James, we played with you know, just

913
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 5: a lot of It was an amazing experience playing with

914
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 5: all those people, whereas the first one we didn't really

915
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 5: play with that many people that came on. But you

916
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 5: were saying something else I fell down. Uh. So what

917
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,479
Speaker 5: happened was they were moving on. And when I look back,

918
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 5: and like when that record we made, everybody had to

919
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 5: bring in a song and Steve had made this like

920
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:05,240
Speaker 5: kind of criteria for the music of it not being

921
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 5: straight ahead and having you know, rhythms or grooves kind

922
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 5: of from more modern because he was into James Brown,

923
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 5: but you know, more modern grooves but with harmony and

924
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 5: stuff moving like jazz but not necessarily in the traditional

925
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 5: kind of two five to one way, and things that

926
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 5: weren't in that kind of form, like no aaba forms

927
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,240
Speaker 5: and that kind of thing. Right, So what I wrote

928
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 5: was more poppish, so to say, and if you if

929
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 5: you would listen to it, like my song was the

930
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 5: outlier on the record because I listened to everything he said,

931
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 5: and I did everything literally in these little sections odd

932
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 5: time signatures or whatever. But it really pointed to something

933
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 5: more commercial, so to say, than they're writing and you know,

934
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 5: I know so many it was like a potpourria music,

935
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 5: which was probably good that the record never came out.

936
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 5: But so I didn't feel so connected. I feel like

937
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 5: I was there in the beginning, but I wasn't super connected,

938
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 5: and I was playing with Wayne and I was really

939
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,439
Speaker 5: just trying to do that gig because I hadn't really

940
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 5: played a fusion gig, like when I auditioned for Wayne

941
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 5: it was fourteen drummers, and you know, I got the

942
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 5: gig somehow, and that was my first real foray into

943
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 5: just you know, playing group stuff. But I had been listening,

944
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 5: of course, to Weather Report and all of that, and

945
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 5: you know, coming up, I mean Earthen when the Fire

946
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 5: was my favorite band. You had asked earlier if I

947
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 5: was listening to all this other music. I mean, I

948
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 5: remember the first place I was when I heard Go

949
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 5: Go at a party. Excuse me, where'd you hear Go Go?

950
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 5: At a party in West Medford? In Medford?

951
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 7: Well, I said there was a black community. See it's not,

952
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 7: but it's so go Go is so localized. That's why

953
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 7: I'm like it made it up there.

954
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, of course, yeah, chuck frown. And then I

955
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 5: remember the first time, you know, I was at another

956
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,240
Speaker 5: one of those parties. You know, I heard rappers Delight.

957
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 5: You know, it was my first introduction to hip hop.

958
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 5: I didn't know what was happening before that, but yeah,

959
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 5: you know, so like I was listening to all of

960
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 5: that stuff coming up, and you know, just as a sidebar,

961
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 5: I was in B Street, so I feel like I was.

962
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 4: Actually stop, stop, come back.

963
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: You did know that, no, yeah.

964
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:26,879
Speaker 5: I'll say to a little clip. It was just like

965
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 5: a quick cameo.

966
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 4: But wait when they were doing the ballet thing on stage. Yep.

967
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I was brought in from Medford, Massachusetts by

968
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,319
Speaker 5: Harry Belafonto to play like this little drum fill.

969
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, these sentences are so compound that you give.

970
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 4: My hair.

971
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 6: Belafonte for the Beach Street came.

972
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 5: Because, yeah, because he was the producer of Beach Street

973
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:57,879
Speaker 5: and was playing in his band. So I had made

974
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 5: an album that's actually gonna come out forty years now

975
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 5: with Kenny Baron, Bussell Williams and George Coleman, and I

976
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 5: was I was sixteen at a time, so we had

977
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 5: just done it. So at this point now I'm seventeen

978
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 5: and uh, Diane came to Boston with Harry. So I

979
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 5: hadn't seen her since this Witchita vessel when I was ten.

980
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 5: So we had a big reunion and she I gave

981
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 5: her this tape of my album. It was a green

982
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 5: cassette tap and she gave it to Harry and then

983
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 5: out of the blue, he just called and we thought

984
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 5: it was a joke. You know, there's a couple of

985
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 5: people that called. We thought it was a joke. Benny

986
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 5: Goodman call once too. We definitely thought that was a joker.

987
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 5: It was, and them like yeah with Harry though.

988
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, we were coming from you are making the wrong

989
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 7: movies around the wrong people.

990
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 6: I'm like, when is this movie?

991
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 3: Literally I'm literally okay, I'm watching the scene right now.

992
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,280
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I had to pull it up with my monitor.

993
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

994
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 7: No, I was talking about Terry lynk care into movie

995
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 7: about her life because it's r never in my whole

996
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:05,879
Speaker 7: there's never been, never never.

997
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 5: It's just it's funny. It's yeah. Yeah, So I feel like,

998
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 5: you know, like some weird in some weird way, that

999
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 5: was you know, that was the word I'm looking for it.

1000
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,240
Speaker 5: I was kind of predicting. You know, I've always felt

1001
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 5: connected to all the genres. You I've always been a

1002
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:26,800
Speaker 5: bit of a bridge, you know, with all the genres

1003
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 5: because I mean, I'm a jazz head, of course, but

1004
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 5: I mean I went through many years when I lived

1005
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 5: in La saying, don't call me a jazz musician. You know,

1006
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 5: I'm just a musician. Then you know, I had to

1007
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 5: come back, you know, like my dad was like, you

1008
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 5: can't run away from who you are.

1009
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 6: And also you stay collaborating with folks.

1010
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:44,359
Speaker 7: So I'm like, I know you still got your ear

1011
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:46,760
Speaker 7: to the streets because you know, you still got folks

1012
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 7: like Rhapsody on Records and whatnot.

1013
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 5: So yeah, I'm doing an R now for a Candid

1014
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 5: which is an old label that John Burke and the

1015
00:53:55,040 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 5: team that he's with, Acceleration Music. They're buying labels. They

1016
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 5: bought Alligator Records. They about Candidate about a hip hop

1017
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 5: label too. So I'm doing it, you know. So it's

1018
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 5: a dream that I always wanted. I always wanted to do.

1019
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:09,759
Speaker 5: I read hit Man back in the day, and I

1020
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 5: wanted to do an R. And one day I was

1021
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 5: walking and I said, well that's.

1022
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 4: When you know you've read hip Man and then still

1023
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 4: wanted to be in the industry.

1024
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,399
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, that was what I wanted to do.

1025
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 4: Light to be like, nah, don't don't come here.

1026
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 5: I wanted to do you know, I wanted to be

1027
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 5: Clive Davis. I wanted to be you know, like and

1028
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 5: so I felt like, you know, there was only two

1029
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 5: black women you know that we're doing. We're doing that right,

1030
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 5: Suzanda Pass and Sylvia Rome. Yeah, so when people ask

1031
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 5: me about glass ceilings, that's what I say as a producer,

1032
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,760
Speaker 5: as an R person, those are the places I felt

1033
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 5: more of a glass ceiling and playing the drums.

1034
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 7: Necessarily, like you ain't got the ears?

1035
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, like like I've mean or like I'm in some

1036
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:04,879
Speaker 5: little jazz box over here that you know, because I'm

1037
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 5: like all of those people were attorneys. They don't have

1038
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:08,880
Speaker 5: no years on me.

1039
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 7: So what are you an r AND for right now? Specifically?

1040
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 7: Like what do you what?

1041
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 5: You Well, the idea with Candida, and it's all relatively new,

1042
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 5: but is to try to find people that are really

1043
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 5: merging jazz with hip hop. And that's fun assignment, yeah exactly.

1044
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 5: But it's a catalog label too, and we're not going

1045
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:33,360
Speaker 5: to say no to certain cool records. So the first

1046
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 5: record that I got done happened to be a live

1047
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 5: record with Wayne Shorter, Esperanza and myself, and so that's

1048
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 5: gonna be coming out in September, I think. And then

1049
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:46,959
Speaker 5: I have a new record that would be coming out

1050
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,280
Speaker 5: on it too. And then the other person I signed

1051
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 5: was Morgan Garn who's been playing in my band. But

1052
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 5: he's like a program, dude. It's not necessarily hip hop,

1053
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 5: but it's like I don't know, it's kind of like

1054
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 5: if you took Wayne Shorter and had him like today

1055
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,800
Speaker 5: and programming and using you know, all of the right

1056
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:09,800
Speaker 5: things that are available today.

1057
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 4: You know, So I have so many questions.

1058
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,399
Speaker 3: But since we're just going all over the place as

1059
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,800
Speaker 3: a professor, coming full circle now back to Berkeley.

1060
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 4: Do you find yourself in a position?

1061
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:24,800
Speaker 3: So the year that I left NYU, I did n

1062
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 3: YU for like four or five years, and my last

1063
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 3: year I kind of had an O ship moment when

1064
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 3: I realized that my students knew more than I did.

1065
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 3: You know, we were talking about I think my last class,

1066
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 3: I believe we taught about Thriller, and they had a

1067
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 3: lot of synth questions like synth choice questions that I

1068
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 3: had to do extra homework, and I realized, like, yo,

1069
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 3: these kids are smarter and shit like, they know more

1070
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 3: than I do as a professor, especially with where music

1071
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 3: is going. And now I don't know specifically the class

1072
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 3: that you're teaching at Berkeley, but you know, there's so

1073
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,839
Speaker 3: many levels of musicianship as far as like gospel chop

1074
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 3: musicians and broken beat musicians. I guess now there's lo

1075
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:13,839
Speaker 3: fi kind of that genre of music or whatever in

1076
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 3: your mind, not do you feel as if you have

1077
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 3: something to contribute, but do you sometimes feel like a

1078
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 3: stranger in a strange land With the way that musicianship

1079
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 3: is approached now. For instance, I have a member in

1080
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 3: my group right now who we don't know exactly how

1081
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 3: to describe what Stroe Elliott does where he plays a

1082
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 3: drum machine as if he is Taikowski, or like a

1083
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 3: piano player where he's playing samples and whatnot. So with

1084
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 3: this whole new generation of musicians there, like what is

1085
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 3: teaching a student at Berkeley in twenty twenty two henceforth,

1086
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 3: when it seems that now is the time when the

1087
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 3: rules are being just washed away and new rules are

1088
00:57:59,040 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 3: coming in.

1089
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 5: Well, I mean that's really interesting because that taps on

1090
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 5: a few things for me. I try to stay around

1091
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 5: young musicians. I mean, everybody in my band is younger

1092
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 5: than me, and people that wrote in a different way

1093
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 5: than than I do. And I'm talking about the Social

1094
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 5: Science band. So if you if you heard that record,

1095
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 5: I think it definitely pointed to something different than I

1096
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 5: would have been able to do on my own, you know,

1097
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 5: because of the writing and uh and the players you know,

1098
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 5: like Morgan and uh, and you know Matt and the

1099
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 5: ideas of mixing other genres, like you know, somebody like

1100
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 5: Matt Stevens mixes more indie rock, Aaron Parks is you know,

1101
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 5: like leads into classical composers. You know, Morgan's into you know,

1102
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 5: more of the kind of new school jazz. Uh. And

1103
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 5: then I had Casa Overall, who is not really with

1104
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 5: us any more. Kokaia's doing it, but Cosa uh, you

1105
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:02,479
Speaker 5: know is definitely kind of into more cocaine, yeah, jazz

1106
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 5: me hip hop. So that I did was for me

1107
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:08,680
Speaker 5: to recognize kind of like you know, Prince did, right,

1108
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 5: And Uh, that's my favorite part about Purple Rain is

1109
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 5: that Prince was like finally like, oh, like, you know,

1110
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 5: I need to in order for me to remain relevant,

1111
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 5: I have to let Wendy and Lisa write, you know.

1112
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 5: So for me that was kind of like my reckoning

1113
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 5: with I'm gonna do much better, you know, with this

1114
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 5: kind of collective. So I feel like I've always tried

1115
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:38,439
Speaker 5: to keep my ear and my spirit to what's happening now,

1116
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 5: even though I can't do it like you know, like

1117
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 5: they do. You know, I never had gospel chops or

1118
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 5: something that I just never did it, never went to church,

1119
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 5: never you know, played in church, and never developed that

1120
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 5: kind of technique. And I don't really hear the drums

1121
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 5: like that. But I can't see how, you know, listening

1122
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 5: to this younger generation, how it has influenced me to

1123
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 5: some degree, you know. And so as far as the

1124
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 5: stranger strange land, I don't really feel that. I feel

1125
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 5: like I'm constantly being fed, you know, and it kind

1126
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 5: of you know, in the end, you know, comes up

1127
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 5: my way, and I still feel like I can comment,

1128
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 5: you know, on what they're doing.

1129
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 4: So you're still at Berkeley.

1130
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, I'm always a student, always a student. But

1131
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 5: you know, what that also taps on, though, is how

1132
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 5: jazz education has screwed up jazz because what I'm dealing

1133
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 5: with mostly are people that come out of jazz programs.

1134
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 5: And now the people in the jazz programs are mostly affluent,

1135
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 5: you know, from certain cities. So I don't know, like

1136
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 5: it's all over really, but people that had programs in

1137
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 5: school and jazz was kind of more street music, you know,

1138
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 5: I mean it was from the people and their experience

1139
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 5: academia exactly. So the academia they started, you know, they

1140
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 5: were able to codify it in a way and then uh,

1141
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 5: you know, uh, what's the word make money from it?

1142
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 5: Monetizer monetize, But there was another word modify, commodify. Yeah, ok, yeah,

1143
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 5: And I feel like now to get into a school

1144
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 5: you have to be on this certain level and have

1145
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 5: cone through this system, which is you know, is still

1146
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 5: dealing with you know, it's yes, it's prohibitive for a

1147
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 5: lot of people. Yeah, there's a racist, sexist system, you know,

1148
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 5: so income based what else what I mean, that's why

1149
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 5: it's racist. Yeah.

1150
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 3: There's a certain side of musicianship that I'm seeing now

1151
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 3: with younger people in which they're able to do whatever,

1152
01:01:55,840 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 3: fly to the bumblebee levels of speed and and literally

1153
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 3: just packing everything in the first one minute, whereas where

1154
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 3: I tell them to do something like my dad had

1155
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:12,360
Speaker 3: a trick where he would make musicians just play a ballot,

1156
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 3: play something very simple, and man, they will all fall apart,

1157
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 3: one by one. They would just like fall this like

1158
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 3: if you ask them to play tea for two or chopsticks.

1159
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 3: It was like asking them to play rights to spring.

1160
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 3: So as as a teacher, do you find it that

1161
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 3: more students are now in this We're in an era

1162
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 3: now where like your Instagram stories is fifteen seconds, like

1163
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 3: your TikTok is thirty seconds, Like you got to have

1164
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 3: all the impact of an entire performance in thirty seconds

1165
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 3: with you know, they don't believe that much in space

1166
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 3: or quietness anymore, like have is there such a thing

1167
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 3: as a drummer who just plays straight ahead and gives

1168
01:02:56,880 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 3: what's required?

1169
01:02:57,880 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 4: Or are you dealing with like.

1170
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 3: More gospel chops people that have to like have bells

1171
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 3: and whistles and firing, eating and everything.

1172
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, I love it. Time field is the most important

1173
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 5: thing period right for a drummer, Like if you don't

1174
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:18,240
Speaker 5: have a time field it feels good, then nothing else

1175
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 5: really matters, no matter what the genre, you know, and

1176
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 5: then it needs to be you know, I'm into playing

1177
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 5: free these days. You know, it's just kind of where

1178
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 5: my head is. But there's time in that, you know,

1179
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 5: it's not it's not like free means absolutely no time.

1180
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 5: And I think the people that play free the best

1181
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 5: of once they have good rhythm. But as far as

1182
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 5: the students are concerned, I don't teach drums anymore. I

1183
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:47,600
Speaker 5: haven't done that in probably like six years or so.

1184
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:51,680
Speaker 5: I just have ensembles and right now, I'm the artistic

1185
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 5: director of an institute, but I do have two ensembles

1186
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 5: in that institute, and so I'm just dealing with the

1187
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 5: overall sound of the of the group more than individuals.

1188
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 5: But it's the same thing with all the instruments.

1189
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 3: What you're saying, is that hard to convey now to

1190
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 3: a generation that feels like to me, all Star games

1191
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:18,760
Speaker 3: are the most boringest games ever in basketball because you know,

1192
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:24,520
Speaker 3: gonna try to show off, whereas a Golden State Warriors

1193
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 3: in Boston. Sorry, by the way, you know, it's literally

1194
01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 3: about teammate and you putting in your twenty percent and

1195
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 3: him putting in his twenty percent and doing one hundred percent?

1196
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 3: Is that harder to convey on students now? As far

1197
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 3: as ensemble is concerned, well, I.

1198
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 5: Mean sometimes I'm actually asking them to play more because

1199
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:52,760
Speaker 5: that's the part of me that is like old school

1200
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:55,720
Speaker 5: and jazz, like you know, like you gotta like I'm

1201
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 5: finding that a lot of them can't play consecutive ace

1202
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:03,800
Speaker 5: notes and construct lines that are interesting. You know, they've

1203
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 5: gone into this like moved into something else, and I

1204
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:10,520
Speaker 5: think they're using too much space sometimes, Like what you're

1205
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:13,439
Speaker 5: saying I would have thought, like a little bit back

1206
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 5: in the day where everybody was just blazing all the time,

1207
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:20,560
Speaker 5: and yeah, that's tiring. I get tired of listening after

1208
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 5: you know, a minute or two. That's why. That's another

1209
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 5: reason why I don't really listen too much or prefer

1210
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 5: to listen to the gospel chops drumming, because I'm bored

1211
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:33,600
Speaker 5: after I you know, it's just I get bored, you know,

1212
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 5: because I'm not a geek, a drum geek, you know,

1213
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 5: So I don't really care about that. And I think

1214
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 5: at the end of the day, that's what your job is,

1215
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 5: to make the listener care, right, what is it that?

1216
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 5: Why do we even do this? You know? So if

1217
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 5: you feel like it's to make them groove that they care,

1218
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:54,680
Speaker 5: you know, that's a level of care, right. But I

1219
01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 5: also feel like, you know, kind of coming out of

1220
01:05:57,360 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 5: the way short of in Herbie Hancock book, I think

1221
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:03,840
Speaker 5: it's about touching the humanity and them, you know, exploring

1222
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 5: what it is that you share in common. So how

1223
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:12,440
Speaker 5: do I inspire you? That's my humanity relating to your humanity,

1224
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:16,320
Speaker 5: and so that's where my head is. And so sometimes

1225
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 5: when I'm listening to some of these young musicians, I

1226
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 5: can't get past their sound, let alone the notes, you know,

1227
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 5: because there's nothing in there sound yet there's no pain,

1228
01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 5: you know, I don't hear the joy, you know what

1229
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 5: I mean. So I try to get them to, you know,

1230
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:34,240
Speaker 5: go back to the beginning. Like I remember once being

1231
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:36,760
Speaker 5: on some I got honored and there was a I

1232
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:38,560
Speaker 5: can't remember who it was, but there was a pro

1233
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 5: ball player, must have been for the Patriots, and because

1234
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,240
Speaker 5: it was in a Boston event, and he said, and

1235
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:48,800
Speaker 5: I'll never forget this because this is how I feel

1236
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 5: too it in music. But he said, you know, he

1237
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 5: was all star in college and then when he got

1238
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 5: to the Patriots, they said, now let us show you,

1239
01:06:57,040 --> 01:06:59,040
Speaker 5: you know, how to throw the ball or how to

1240
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:01,480
Speaker 5: catch the ball. He had to like go back.

1241
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 6: He played it a little bit and.

1242
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 5: Burn go back to the basics. So for me, that's

1243
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 5: the same with sound, you know, like why is it

1244
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:17,040
Speaker 5: Dwayne Shorter could play one note and break your heart?

1245
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:22,280
Speaker 5: Like it's about what you're projecting, you know. So the

1246
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 5: greatest compliments I ever get is when somebody said, damn,

1247
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:27,680
Speaker 5: somebody else just played that drum set. But then when

1248
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:30,800
Speaker 5: you played it, like wow, you know, the sound changed,

1249
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:35,680
Speaker 5: and that's when I know that's right, that's what because

1250
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 5: it's the sound is your spirit, right, you know what

1251
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 5: I mean?

1252
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 3: I would say probably the Mosaic project is one of

1253
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:47,480
Speaker 3: your most beloved projects. Could you tell me about just

1254
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:51,040
Speaker 3: the whole concept of doing that album and and gathering

1255
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 3: these uh these women together to do this album and

1256
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:57,160
Speaker 3: how it came to fruition.

1257
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:02,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, I did gig in Israel. I had a gig

1258
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:05,520
Speaker 5: in Israel called Esperanza. It was the first time, well

1259
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 5: the second time we played together, and she was still

1260
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 5: like she had come out of Berkeley and started teaching

1261
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:14,040
Speaker 5: at Berkeley, and that's when I met her first year teaching.

1262
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 5: So I called her and Jerry Allen and a saxophone

1263
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:21,679
Speaker 5: player from Hall and Tennka Postma. I realized I called

1264
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,080
Speaker 5: three women for a gig just based on the way

1265
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:26,840
Speaker 5: they played. I didn't realize that it was three women

1266
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 5: and this was going to be an all women quartet

1267
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 5: until after I had, you know, booked them. So it

1268
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:35,800
Speaker 5: wasn't anything I was trying to do. I just wanted

1269
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:38,599
Speaker 5: to play with the three of them, and I was like, Okay,

1270
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 5: this is a big deal for me because Throughout my

1271
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:44,599
Speaker 5: whole career, people had asked me, oh, could you do

1272
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:47,800
Speaker 5: this women's festival? Could he play with these women? And

1273
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 5: I was kind of like, you know, when I look

1274
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:52,840
Speaker 5: at somebody like Mary L. Williams who didn't want to

1275
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 5: play with other women, she said, well, why would I

1276
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:56,600
Speaker 5: want to play with them when I'm playing with the best,

1277
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:57,599
Speaker 5: you know, And I.

1278
01:08:57,520 --> 01:08:59,240
Speaker 6: Was wondering how you felt about this?

1279
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:04,880
Speaker 5: Yes, okay, yeah, yeah. And so I shot away from

1280
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:08,320
Speaker 5: it my entire career, and there was always be somebody like,

1281
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:11,600
Speaker 5: you know, I played with Ingrid Jensen or you know,

1282
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:15,880
Speaker 5: Renie Robinson, with Wayne, with Bernard Wright, you know, Rest

1283
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 5: in Peace, and there was always a woman here or there,

1284
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:24,479
Speaker 5: you know, Jerry Back with Mbase and before that actually,

1285
01:09:25,080 --> 01:09:28,439
Speaker 5: but never all together, you know, And I really shot

1286
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:30,240
Speaker 5: away from it. So I did it, and then I said,

1287
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:34,240
Speaker 5: this is a moment that I really want to celebrate

1288
01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:37,519
Speaker 5: and shine some light on. So I started with just

1289
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:39,799
Speaker 5: the four of them, and then I just kept adding

1290
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 5: people and it just became like twenty one women and

1291
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 5: that's really just how it started. And I wasn't really

1292
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:51,880
Speaker 5: trying to make any kind of political statement other than, oh,

1293
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 5: there are a lot of amazing women that play and

1294
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:57,120
Speaker 5: let me just put through this record, you know.

1295
01:09:57,080 --> 01:09:58,639
Speaker 6: So this is how the sisterhood started?

1296
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 7: Then, because I want to ask you, is there a

1297
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:04,559
Speaker 7: sisterhood in well, I was gonna say jazz. Really, of course,

1298
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:08,720
Speaker 7: jazz when it comes to musicians, you know of a

1299
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:09,639
Speaker 7: sisterhood that way.

1300
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:12,719
Speaker 5: I mean, there is, But there's a lot of women

1301
01:10:13,439 --> 01:10:17,680
Speaker 5: that are playing jazz that still they think about it.

1302
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:21,040
Speaker 5: How do I say, not as much like a sisterhood

1303
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:23,559
Speaker 5: because you know, we're affected by the patriarchy too, right,

1304
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:26,320
Speaker 5: So women are invested in it. Yeah, they don't want

1305
01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:28,639
Speaker 5: to play with other women because they feel like it's

1306
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 5: a step down. That's something.

1307
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:33,759
Speaker 7: But as more greats are coming out of the fold,

1308
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:34,439
Speaker 7: how does it be?

1309
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:36,320
Speaker 6: How is it a step down? And to play with

1310
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:38,000
Speaker 6: Terry Well.

1311
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:40,840
Speaker 5: That's the well, I mean, that's the point that there's

1312
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:43,799
Speaker 5: only going to happen. That's why I started apprenticeship program,

1313
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:46,680
Speaker 5: the mentorship program New Music USA, because there's a lot

1314
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:50,120
Speaker 5: of mentorship programs, but apprenticeship means you have to put

1315
01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:53,000
Speaker 5: them on the stage with you. And so we got

1316
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:56,120
Speaker 5: a grant of one point two five million dollars to

1317
01:10:56,600 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 5: do this three year program. And we have a these

1318
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:03,120
Speaker 5: six applicants this first year, and we picked seven and

1319
01:11:03,160 --> 01:11:08,280
Speaker 5: so like I did pairings and so some of the

1320
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:11,040
Speaker 5: mentors are Bob McFerrin and Wayne Shorter and you know,

1321
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 5: watch of different people. But some of the apprenticeships are

1322
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 5: with Chris Potter, Linda Mayhanou Esmza, Marcus Miller. He took

1323
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:25,120
Speaker 5: one Alexis, which is great. She's having a blast playing

1324
01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:27,679
Speaker 5: with him. So I just feel like, I thought, how

1325
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:30,720
Speaker 5: do we get more men to hire women, because if

1326
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 5: they don't really do it on their own because they

1327
01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:35,800
Speaker 5: need to, you know, they don't necessarily know that they

1328
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 5: need to contribute to this the shift, how do we

1329
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:42,920
Speaker 5: get them? So I said, pay them, you know, the.

1330
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:47,280
Speaker 7: Men din women, then the women will start hiring women.

1331
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:50,799
Speaker 5: You know what I mean is once you know, everybody

1332
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:53,400
Speaker 5: has to be invested in gender equity because it's for

1333
01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:57,599
Speaker 5: the good of everybody. And I just felt like one

1334
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:00,880
Speaker 5: way to get people interested is is have it affect

1335
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:03,639
Speaker 5: their wallet. If they're getting a free musician and getting

1336
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 5: you know a little money on top of that, it

1337
01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 5: might make it easier. And it's you know, so far

1338
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:12,840
Speaker 5: kind of work. You know, this is our inaugural year.

1339
01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:17,640
Speaker 5: But anyway, I think that this last record, though, the

1340
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:19,960
Speaker 5: Waiting Game is the one. It's the only one I

1341
01:12:19,960 --> 01:12:22,160
Speaker 5: can listen to. Let's put it like that. The other

1342
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:26,720
Speaker 5: ones is I can't. I can't really listen to a

1343
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:29,400
Speaker 5: Waiting Game. I could still listen to. So I think

1344
01:12:29,439 --> 01:12:32,439
Speaker 5: that's for me my favorite of all the elbows real

1345
01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:35,519
Speaker 5: because I don't cringe when I listen.

1346
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:38,640
Speaker 3: So you're still like in your head about like I

1347
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:40,200
Speaker 3: could have did that better, We could have did a

1348
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:41,200
Speaker 3: big different take.

1349
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:46,439
Speaker 5: Or yeah, or just sometimes like Mosaic Projects, the first one,

1350
01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:48,559
Speaker 5: I mean I like things on the second one too,

1351
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 5: but the Mosaic Project, I think that the playing is

1352
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:57,840
Speaker 5: good overall. There's like some sound things, like you know,

1353
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:02,479
Speaker 5: some production things that really both with me. But you know,

1354
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:04,880
Speaker 5: playing is good overall, but it's a little bit far

1355
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:07,560
Speaker 5: away from where I am as a musician. There's a

1356
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:09,920
Speaker 5: little bit of my writing that bothers me. You know

1357
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 5: that I'm like, oh man, I could have really developed

1358
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:15,160
Speaker 5: that idea much better, and I've improved as a writer

1359
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:20,120
Speaker 5: since then, So that's what you know. But overall, I think,

1360
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:22,280
Speaker 5: you know, the playing is okay.

1361
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:24,679
Speaker 6: Oh so you're writing writing these lyrics on waiting game.

1362
01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:27,519
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, you've been also singing on all of your records.

1363
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:31,759
Speaker 3: That's you've sung on it since your first album, you've sung.

1364
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:36,479
Speaker 5: Yeah, except this last one. I didn't, you know, way

1365
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:39,920
Speaker 5: to give it, but I wrote all the lyrics, but

1366
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:41,640
Speaker 5: I tried to sing a little bit.

1367
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:43,120
Speaker 3: Man.

1368
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:44,200
Speaker 4: You you got to.

1369
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:49,639
Speaker 3: I guess bucket List check a project before she died,

1370
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:55,600
Speaker 3: maybe like six months before Amy Winehouse died, she was

1371
01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:59,599
Speaker 3: stalking me daily telling me that her and I were

1372
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 3: going to redo Money Jungle and yeah, the Money Money

1373
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:12,679
Speaker 3: Jungle album from Duke Ellington and Max Wroton and Charles Minkus,

1374
01:14:12,920 --> 01:14:14,040
Speaker 3: the famous trio record.

1375
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:16,280
Speaker 5: What I did that record?

1376
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:18,360
Speaker 4: I know? And you wound up pulling it off.

1377
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:21,720
Speaker 3: So we were planning me her and most Step and

1378
01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:23,599
Speaker 3: a few other musicians were going to cover.

1379
01:14:23,439 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 4: The entire album.

1380
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:25,719
Speaker 5: Oh my god.

1381
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:30,640
Speaker 3: Right, and she passed away and ah, man, I was

1382
01:14:30,680 --> 01:14:33,400
Speaker 3: just heartbroken. And then a year and a half or

1383
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:36,080
Speaker 3: for the for the fiftieth anniversary, you actually, what made

1384
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:38,680
Speaker 3: you want to cover that entire album? Because when I

1385
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:41,000
Speaker 3: see it, I was like, wow, what the hell? Like

1386
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:44,439
Speaker 3: it came out, but I wasn't even mad at it.

1387
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:46,240
Speaker 3: But what made you want to cover that album.

1388
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:49,360
Speaker 5: You know, people ask me that all the time, and

1389
01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 5: I don't know, it's just it haunted me. I don't

1390
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 5: know what made me choose it, other than it just

1391
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:58,600
Speaker 5: kind of haunted me. And I started reading all these

1392
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 5: Duke Ellington biography books and and I was transcribing, you know,

1393
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 5: in the piano, and I realized these are all mostly

1394
01:15:07,280 --> 01:15:12,080
Speaker 5: blues based songs, probably the easiest stuff that Duke Ellington wrote.

1395
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:14,720
Speaker 5: And I knew that it was as far as I

1396
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:18,480
Speaker 5: could go, you know, like with transcribing Duke Ellington a trio.

1397
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 4: Record, you know, and that's the easiest.

1398
01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:25,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, this, and it wasn't complex, you know, in general.

1399
01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:30,160
Speaker 5: So uh, I kept flipping like, you know, some of

1400
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:32,439
Speaker 5: the songs to the point it didn't sound like it

1401
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:34,160
Speaker 5: so even you know, Christian said when he came in

1402
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:36,680
Speaker 5: the session, he said, you know, you really could have

1403
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:39,760
Speaker 5: just called most of these songs something else, you know,

1404
01:15:45,040 --> 01:15:48,880
Speaker 5: but you know, I just I wanted to make sure

1405
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:53,920
Speaker 5: that I wasn't bastardizing, you know, Duke Ellington's music. And

1406
01:15:54,439 --> 01:15:56,679
Speaker 5: I read enough interviews, like he said, jazz, we stopped

1407
01:15:56,760 --> 01:16:00,360
Speaker 5: using that that word. In nineteen forty seven. He said jazz.

1408
01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:03,759
Speaker 5: That just means freedom of expression. And so when I

1409
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:08,360
Speaker 5: realized that's how he felt, then I felt, okay, you

1410
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:11,280
Speaker 5: know about changing his music to that degree.

1411
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:12,120
Speaker 4: Okay.

1412
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:15,960
Speaker 3: And at this phase of your career, and you pretty

1413
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:22,680
Speaker 3: much have done everything. You've You've done scores, you've taught television,

1414
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:28,719
Speaker 3: you've done everything. Is there something that you had yet

1415
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:31,880
Speaker 3: to embarkle on that you wish to do for this

1416
01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:33,280
Speaker 3: phase of your career right now?

1417
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:37,599
Speaker 5: Oh man, I'm just getting started as far as I can.

1418
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:41,240
Speaker 5: I mean, I'm doing I'm doing so much now that

1419
01:16:41,280 --> 01:16:44,639
Speaker 5: I'm a little pissed that some of these opportunities didn't

1420
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:47,880
Speaker 5: come before. I'm you know, a little tired. I'm fifty six.

1421
01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:52,719
Speaker 5: I'll be fifty seven and two months on somebody's baby,

1422
01:16:54,320 --> 01:16:59,200
Speaker 5: thank you. So I'm a little tired, you know, and

1423
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:03,160
Speaker 5: I wish that I had some of these opportunities earlier.

1424
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:05,240
Speaker 5: Like right now, I can tell you a couple of

1425
01:17:05,280 --> 01:17:07,880
Speaker 5: things really right, really.

1426
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:11,200
Speaker 3: Tell you about business in the fifties, Like I've been

1427
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:13,160
Speaker 3: waiting for this at twenty.

1428
01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:15,240
Speaker 4: I think it's the time. You're at least forty one,

1429
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:16,519
Speaker 4: at least thirty nine.

1430
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:19,800
Speaker 2: Say that again now, because you're ready for it now,

1431
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:21,240
Speaker 2: if you got any twenties, you would.

1432
01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:21,599
Speaker 4: Have sucked it up.

1433
01:17:22,200 --> 01:17:23,919
Speaker 6: Hello, well not maybe.

1434
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:26,040
Speaker 4: A mirror, Yeah, everybody would everybody.

1435
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:27,360
Speaker 6: He started so early.

1436
01:17:27,439 --> 01:17:30,679
Speaker 5: So I don't know, I know, but I hear you.

1437
01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:34,320
Speaker 5: I hear you, I feel you because I feel the

1438
01:17:34,360 --> 01:17:37,519
Speaker 5: same way. And honestly, I hear what you're saying. We're

1439
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:41,479
Speaker 5: wiser and maybe we're doing it better or different, but

1440
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:45,200
Speaker 5: I feel like I'm the same person really, you know,

1441
01:17:45,240 --> 01:17:47,400
Speaker 5: twenty years ago, I would have been going on thirty

1442
01:17:47,479 --> 01:17:52,280
Speaker 5: seven even fifteen years, have more energy, and I feel

1443
01:17:52,280 --> 01:17:55,559
Speaker 5: like I knew most of the things that I know now.

1444
01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 5: I just have a little more confidence now because I'm older.

1445
01:17:58,400 --> 01:18:01,240
Speaker 5: But if I had gotten opportunity unities, because the way

1446
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:04,080
Speaker 5: I see it is, there's a lot of and I

1447
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:07,439
Speaker 5: say this when I talk to young women that feel like, oh,

1448
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:10,080
Speaker 5: we're not ready to be in the if they're at

1449
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:11,960
Speaker 5: North Texas or something, they say, we're not ready to

1450
01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:13,960
Speaker 5: be in the one o'clock band. I don't want to

1451
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:16,200
Speaker 5: get the opportunity to play in the one o'clock band

1452
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:19,960
Speaker 5: when I'm really two o'clock band material, you know, And

1453
01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:22,040
Speaker 5: I'm like, wait a minute. There's a lot of marginal

1454
01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:25,479
Speaker 5: white men that have hot have these opportunities, you know,

1455
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:29,000
Speaker 5: like that weren't ready and why do we have to

1456
01:18:29,040 --> 01:18:31,360
Speaker 5: be like three times, Oh we have to be super dope.

1457
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:34,639
Speaker 6: No, that's just the program that way, right, like right, So.

1458
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:38,360
Speaker 5: That's what I resent. I resent not having some opportunities

1459
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:41,240
Speaker 5: when I was in my thirties and forties when I

1460
01:18:41,240 --> 01:18:44,519
Speaker 5: really had the energy. But now I'm you know, I'm

1461
01:18:44,600 --> 01:18:49,599
Speaker 5: burning a candle. I mean writing, you know, projects, writing words,

1462
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:52,320
Speaker 5: you know, like I'm writing the children's book, I'm doing

1463
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:55,560
Speaker 5: some film for an exhibition.

1464
01:18:56,720 --> 01:18:59,679
Speaker 7: As anybody approach you about a something about your life

1465
01:19:00,040 --> 01:19:03,680
Speaker 7: because there is no one about you. There's nobody like

1466
01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:05,360
Speaker 7: you in the world, Like it's.

1467
01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:08,760
Speaker 5: Just nobody's nobody's approached me yet about that.

1468
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:09,719
Speaker 4: No memoir.

1469
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:13,360
Speaker 5: No, I'm just trying to get my dad. He's gonna

1470
01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:15,439
Speaker 5: like start because he has a better memory than me

1471
01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:17,679
Speaker 5: and he's eighty four.

1472
01:19:18,040 --> 01:19:19,519
Speaker 4: Interview your dad right now.

1473
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:22,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, what I'm doing I'm currently in Yeah, I'm sorry,

1474
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:25,880
Speaker 3: I'm going to interview my mom. Like just I think

1475
01:19:26,439 --> 01:19:31,559
Speaker 3: generally like everyone should just interview their elders and get

1476
01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:36,200
Speaker 3: all the stories out so that way that they're they're preserved,

1477
01:19:36,439 --> 01:19:36,720
Speaker 3: you know.

1478
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:38,800
Speaker 5: And I also want to say to you too, I

1479
01:19:38,960 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 5: use I tried to you might not hear the inspiration,

1480
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:46,160
Speaker 5: but break you off. You know that end drum thing right,

1481
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:48,400
Speaker 5: break you off, so like I have an end drump

1482
01:19:48,400 --> 01:19:51,240
Speaker 5: thing on a tune of mine on the second Mosaic

1483
01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:56,559
Speaker 5: Utrich Russian song when I found you, so that was

1484
01:19:56,680 --> 01:20:00,280
Speaker 5: like your inspiration. I'm going to break you off is

1485
01:20:00,479 --> 01:20:03,640
Speaker 5: what made me write that section at the end. But

1486
01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:06,400
Speaker 5: this is in fifteen, but I think it's fifteen. But

1487
01:20:07,160 --> 01:20:09,160
Speaker 5: if you check it out, I don't know, you know,

1488
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:11,680
Speaker 5: I said once the Wayne Shorter, I wrote this, you

1489
01:20:12,120 --> 01:20:16,320
Speaker 5: were my inspiration. He was like, oh yeah, wow.

1490
01:20:17,520 --> 01:20:21,040
Speaker 7: We should have asked when we ever see y'all on

1491
01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:24,320
Speaker 7: a stage together on we Never damn should have asked

1492
01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:26,200
Speaker 7: that question because y'all never been on a stage together.

1493
01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:28,679
Speaker 5: Never too late.

1494
01:20:29,680 --> 01:20:31,800
Speaker 4: Now now, now's the time before.

1495
01:20:31,600 --> 01:20:34,240
Speaker 6: I'm gonna tell Christian. I'm gonna tell Christian make it happen.

1496
01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:35,400
Speaker 4: Here you go.

1497
01:20:36,280 --> 01:20:39,519
Speaker 3: This is long overdue. I thank you so much for

1498
01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:41,639
Speaker 3: coming on that show. You got to come back because

1499
01:20:41,840 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 3: I've skipped so many, so many questions I had about

1500
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:46,840
Speaker 3: your career that I've skipped.

1501
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:52,440
Speaker 2: Because about your fuller Lester Bowie, Diana Cross.

1502
01:20:53,840 --> 01:21:00,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jimmy jam episode, sure you like. Terry's actually like

1503
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:05,800
Speaker 3: a four hour episode on the real So I'm at

1504
01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:07,719
Speaker 3: my day Jo sneaking on my lunch break.

1505
01:21:08,439 --> 01:21:13,560
Speaker 7: Thank you for existing, Terry, Thank you, thank you.

1506
01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:13,800
Speaker 4: No, that's real like you.

1507
01:21:14,000 --> 01:21:19,320
Speaker 3: You know, I saw you drumming mad early and you

1508
01:21:19,360 --> 01:21:22,400
Speaker 3: know you were You were the first kid that I

1509
01:21:22,439 --> 01:21:23,160
Speaker 3: saw doing.

1510
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:24,360
Speaker 4: What I wanted to do for a living. That was

1511
01:21:24,400 --> 01:21:25,320
Speaker 4: that was really inspiration.

1512
01:21:25,720 --> 01:21:28,920
Speaker 5: See and thank you pretty wild. I never would have

1513
01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:34,679
Speaker 5: imagined that. And really that makes me feel really good.

1514
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:35,720
Speaker 4: Thank you so much.

1515
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:36,639
Speaker 5: Alone.

1516
01:21:37,360 --> 01:21:42,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, well on behalf of like Sugar Steve, Unpaid Bill

1517
01:21:42,240 --> 01:21:43,040
Speaker 3: and font Tickeolo.

1518
01:21:43,160 --> 01:21:45,240
Speaker 4: This is Quest Love and we will see you on

1519
01:21:45,320 --> 01:21:47,880
Speaker 4: the next go round on the next episode of Quest Supreme.

1520
01:21:48,600 --> 01:22:00,559
Speaker 1: Piece we'st Love Supreme is a production of iHeart New Radio.

1521
01:22:04,640 --> 01:22:09,160
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1522
01:22:09,520 --> 01:22:11,200
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.