WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Cleveland Torso Murders 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:24.360 Hey guys, the Thinking Sideways the podcast. I'm Devin, I 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:32.080 guess as always, yes, joined by hand, Steve, I guess 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:36.640 or whatever. My English name of case you're confused is chow. Okay, okay, 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:40.920 that just like let's just clear things up right there. Today. Um, 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.640 we're continuing on our series of Halloween mysteries, and I 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:47.560 guess I should add the caveat that. Um, if you 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:53.440 don't already know about this mystery, unsolved mystery, it's pretty gruesome. 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:58.080 So as we have said before, squeamish or if you 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:02.120 have young children or really like children kind of at all, uh, 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:04.200 maybe this is not an episode for you. And also 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.000 before we too far, I guess, um, this is a 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:12.880 listeners suggestion from Hunter. Thank you. We're gonna We're gonna 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:16.560 talk about the Mad Butcher of Kingsbury Run, also known 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:21.160 as the Torso Murders or the Cleveland Cleveland. There's a 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.520 lot of different names. Yeah, this this was really difficult 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:26.800 to do research on because it does go by different 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.480 a half dozen names, which is annoying. Yes, I agreed, 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:33.000 but it does help with a copy paste issue that 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:37.039 we always complain about on the internet. Yeah, it's true, alright, 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:41.480 yous ready, Yeah, we're so we're going to Cleveland nineteen thirties. 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.360 We have to Yeah, in the nineteen thirties, it might 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:47.600 be fun. Roaring thirties. Well, by all accounts, it's a 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:50.680 city on the rise despite the effects of the Great Depression. 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.840 Um many many people are doing pretty okay. And we're 0:01:54.840 --> 0:02:00.040 going to Kingsbury Run. So prehistoric riverbed running from the 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:05.480 flats which is the backs of the to about East 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:07.760 nineties Street. I know that that doesn't make sense to 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:09.519 most people, but I guess that people in Cleveland it 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:13.800 probably won't make sense. And it's not so much a 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:21.359 river as it is just like a kind Yeah, I 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:23.840 think that people are probably not going to get to 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:28.680 get more go out and google it. It's it's just 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.200 a depression in the earth that water flows through. But 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.959 it's not a river bed that are proved very attractive 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:36.400 to poor people back in during the Depression. Well, the 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:39.800 train and um any kind of rapid transit tracks still 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:42.720 run through it. But the trains did run through it, 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:46.079 and train tracks especially in the like right around the 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:50.080 Great Depression time. That's that's really popular with vagabonds and 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:53.600 sort of yeah, well just you know, people without a 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.160 home or run down on their luck because you can 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.280 just hop on a box car and get someplace else. 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:04.240 So that's it's a pretty attractive and as as we 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:06.840 were just kind of saying, I guess it's the people 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:09.680 who are not in that hole like many people doing 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:16.480 well again group, Yeah, they lived in really really awful conditions, 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:22.520 you know, like filth and trash and kind of shantytowns exactly. Yeah. 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:26.600 And most of the people that lived there were transience 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:32.919 and they road box cars mostly to escape Cleveland winters 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:40.760 because Cleveland is not super fun in the winter, which 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:45.880 is a very cold place in the winter. Yes, I wouldn't. 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.680 I wouldn't want to be homeless or a transient and 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:50.800 be there. I I would. I would turn into a 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.560 snowbird and head south for the winter. You know me too. Uh. 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.960 And the area just east of the run is known 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:03.240 well was known as the Roaring Third. It was mostly bars, brothels, 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:08.000 flop houses, and gambling dens, which more fun back in 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:10.280 those days. Yeah. Well, I think that that's kind of 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:15.080 the like transient area, right, Like you've got like people 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:17.480 who are really really out on their luck, hobo has 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:19.799 lost everything, and then you've got the area where people 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:25.359 become really really kind of gray area. Yeah, it's that 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:30.440 like filter zone that people go through. So September of 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:35.640 nineteen thirty four is kind of when this whole mystery starts. 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.679 A young man finds the lower half of a woman's 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:43.960 torso thighs still attached but amputated at the knee, washed 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.480 up on the shores of ach Leary. That spoiler day, 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:51.760 wouldn't it like erie? Yeah? Sorry? Uh? And as as mentioned, 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:53.760 it's just going to get morgrosome from here. So if 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:58.919 that freaked you out, just stopped. Now. Yeah October it 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:03.200 is October, so are doing the creepy stuff that County corner. A. J. 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:07.120 Pierce noted that there was some kind of chemical preservative 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:09.960 on the skin that had made it turn red, tough 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:12.960 and leathery, and we'll kind of talk about that a 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:15.680 little bit. Yeah, sure, she wasn't just really in the 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:18.320 like sun tanning. It's possible, but in the thirties I 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:21.320 think it was more like don't han They were back 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:26.039 on the non kick. There was a search and they 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:30.280 found just a couple other body parts. It was identified 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.719 as a female in her mid thirties. The head to 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.839 this body was never found. The woman was never identified. 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:39.480 She is referred to as the Lady of the Lake, 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:44.919 and she is labeled as victim number zero. So the 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:47.760 one thing that disturbs me through and this this one, 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:53.200 there's one thing that disturbs me through all of these 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:55.359 and I know we're going to get into it, but 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:59.920 it's the head factor. The missing heads are the cree 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.240 epeist thing in the world. There's a is it. Joe 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.080 Pesci was in a movie that he had a head 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.000 in a bowling ball bag or something, and I kept 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.880 thinking back to that movie because it's just it's that 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:16.960 creepy factor. Anybody who knows that movie, they're gonna understand. Yeah, it's, uh, 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:21.000 the whole idea of just dismembering people and chopping them up. 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:24.840 It's just kind of just in general, Yeah, something I 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.240 would care to do, but apparently it's different tastes, you know, 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:30.320 you know, each their own or whatever exactly. You know, 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.240 it might have been that the murder had a sense 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:37.919 of humor though she had great legs. Yeah, all right, 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:40.479 yeah that didn't work. Please continue on before I make 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:42.159 a bigger So we're going to do that thing that 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.000 we do sometimes where we basically just list the victims. 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:48.200 There's twelve. We're gonna keep it short as possible, but 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.719 there are things that differ between each of them, so 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:56.440 please bear with us because and if not fast forward 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:58.840 like fifteen minutes, then we'll probably still be talking about that. 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:05.440 Just skip the next fifteen. Yeah. So John Doe number 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:09.400 one was the second body to be discovered be discovered, 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.600 but he was likely the first murder victim. He was 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:20.320 discovered on September five, and he was never identified. He, 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:24.800 like most of the male victims, was emasculated and decapitated. 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:29.400 His head was recovered, however, and his skin also had 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:31.720 the chemical agent that had caused it to become red 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:36.320 and leathery. The next one is probably it was the 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:40.760 first body found, but probably the second victim, and he 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:48.720 was found also September five. He was found like nine 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.600 meters thirty feet away from John Doe one. He had 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:56.520 also been decapitated and emasculated, and he was identified, which 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:02.240 is rare. Next up is Florence Eneviev. Wait, what was 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:04.720 the name of the last Oh gosh, I'm sorry. It 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:12.800 was Edward anders and Andersey. Yeah, he had a name there. 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.040 He was identified, So I wanted to make sure we come. Yes. Uh, 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:28.239 Florence Genevieve Plelio. She was found on January and February seven. 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:35.200 Her body had been dismembered fully, uh, and her head 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.400 was never found. It's not clear how they identified her. 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:40.640 That's a good point. I mean, maybe she had tattoos 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:47.760 or something. I think that they correlated some missing person reports. 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:50.560 I don't think she had tattoos, but I think that 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:53.960 it was a missing report, missing person report, if I 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.480 remember correctly. And that's the hard part. There's so many 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.000 of these people that I'm trying to, you know, rattle 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:01.480 through the card catalog of my brain. But I think 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:05.000 that is how they figured out who she was. So 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:09.760 then John Doe three, this is that particularly disturbing one. 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:15.560 He was the fifth body to be found. Fourth victim, Yeah, 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:23.440 July of dismembered while alive. Yeah, lucky guy. I'm not 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:27.080 sure if this killer drug victims or not, if they 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.520 were out. I don't think anybody knows anything about the victims. 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:35.400 Actually I do know that. Um, are you going to 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:39.560 talk about the medical examiners that are involved in this case? 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:44.000 By chance? A little? Okay? Because I can't remember the name, 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:47.319 and maybe you do of the second examiner that came 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:51.920 in near the end of things, but he somehow seemed 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.120 to have figured out that there was some kind of 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:56.480 chemical in their system, or at least in one of 0:09:56.520 --> 0:10:00.679 the victims, but he couldn't figure out if was because 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:04.840 that person was drugged or if they were a junkie 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.679 for lack of a better term. And the fact that 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:11.000 that person's arms were never found to tell if they 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:15.160 had injection points repetitive made it hard. So we don't 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:19.080 know if they were being drugged or not. Well, there's 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:22.800 and there's a lot of kind of stuff about the 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:32.960 corners and how thorough and John Doe three is the 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:35.319 only victim that was found on the west side of Cleveland. 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:39.439 I guess it's my only worth mentioning. John do number 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:45.480 two was the fourth victim to be found, fifth victim 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:48.160 to be murdered. I know, it's a little wonky. It's 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:50.679 hard with these guys. Well this is well, the discovery 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:54.160 dates are the hard part. Yeah, John Do number two, 0:10:54.559 --> 0:11:00.679 he was the fourth discovered body five victim. And this 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:05.200 is this is because of the discovery dates. Yeah, it's hard. 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:09.360 I'm I've ordered them by murder date. But I think 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:12.200 It's also important to mention the discovery date because John 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:15.520 Doe number two was discovered before John No. Number three. 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.800 Though John Doe number three was murdered before John Doe 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:22.720 number two. That makes sense. They're numbered by discovery date. 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:28.800 Ladies and gentlemen, we will make a real goldburger machine. Yeah, 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:33.479 it doesn't really matter too much. But he was decapitated 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:36.920 while alive as well, and his head was recovered. He 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:41.400 also was had some interesting little bits about him. He 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:44.280 was estimated to be in his mid twenties and had 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:48.480 six unusual tattoos on his body. One included the names 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:52.240 Helen and Paul, and the other had initials W C G. 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:57.440 And his undershorts bore a laundry mark that had his 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:01.440 initials right like in that time, I'm you would write 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.320 your initials or your name in your laundry. So if 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:09.120 you were all going in on one bulk laundry order, yeah, absolutely, 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.280 And the initials were J D. And since they found 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:14.600 his head, they did what's called the death mask, which 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:17.480 I think we've talked about a little bit, but they 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:21.240 cast the face and they recreate what it might have 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:24.720 looked like alive, and they publicized photos of that apparently 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.400 those things that those things are still laying around somewhere 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:30.800 in Cleveland too. Yeah, So despite the fact that they 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:35.240 circulated the death mask and on his unusual tattoos, this 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:37.679 this John Doe was clearly since he's a John Doe 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.800 was still never identified. Maybe j d stood for John Doe, 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:45.600 maybe it stood for John Dillinger. There could have been 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:47.280 a lot of things. But they call him the tattooed 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:48.959 man because he's he's one of the few that has 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:53.080 identifying marks. So but since he was wearing is he's 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:57.120 wearing a short, it's presumably was not evasculated. Presumably. Yeah, 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:59.800 I don't see anything here, but I haven't read anything 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.440 that's as he was. Okay, So the next victim is 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:06.720 Jane Doe, number six, who was the sixth murder victim. 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:13.079 She was the eight discovery. But um, they didn't they couldn't. 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:17.720 They didn't identify the bodies of the previous women for 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.680 the most part until later. So there are a couple 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:23.920 that were Jane Does. While the investigation was ongoing, there 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:28.319 were likely other Jane Does happening. The Jane Does get 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:30.920 a little out of order, actually they get a lot 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:32.760 out of order. There are going to be some more 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:37.920 Jane Does that are weirdly numbered and it's later. It's again, 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:42.280 this is based on not date of it's the confusion 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.440 is date of murder versus date of discovery. Yeah, and 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.839 the Jane Does are different than the John Does. And 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:52.240 part of that has to do with the fact that 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.880 a couple of the Jane Does were in fact identified. 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.679 Why can't we just use the Dewey desk fol system, right, 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:04.240 So this one actually is very interesting. She was the 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.839 only black victim. She was decapitated, but she was also 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:11.959 missing a rib and her head was discovered, and they 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:16.280 thought perhaps that they had identified her as a woman 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:20.640 named Rose Wallace. Dental work, you know, the like the 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:24.880 tooth records, which is what dental work means, was a 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:31.160 pretty close match. The police said that her son was 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.400 very positive that that was his mom. He identified her, 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.640 But did they actually show him the head. I'm trying 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:42.200 to think of what that would be like. Suspect seed head. Yeah, 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.160 I suspect they did a death mask. Well hopefully they didn't. 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:48.160 But well, but she'd been dead for a long she'd 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:52.880 been dead for here when they found her, and the 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.560 dentist who carried out her dental work. Who could like 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.760 look at it and be like, yes, that's my handiwork 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:03.880 and she was my patient died years before, So the 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:08.280 police never officially identified her as Rose Wallace despite so 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:12.280 that's why there's no official stuff. And additionally, her body 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:14.840 had been estimated to have been dead for a year, 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:20.200 but Rose Wallace had only been reported missing for ten months. 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.800 That's that's not a big so weird because I mean, 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.240 you know, a year, come on, that's that's a rounding thing, 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:29.320 you know, it's like ten months. So absolutely, yeah, especially 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.200 in this climate with all this stuff happening, he totally 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.760 could have been here. So it's likely that that Jane 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:40.240 Doe was in fact Rose Wallace, but we don't know. Yeah. 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:45.520 Next is John Doe. Four, John Doe. He was the 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:50.520 seventh murder victim, sixth body to be found. Uh and 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:55.680 only half of his torso was found nothing below the hips, 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.160 no head, no head. Yeah, so he did not have 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.240 great legs. He maybe he had such great legs that 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:05.120 the murder had to keep them. Maybe. Yeah, he almost 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.320 a trophy. Yeah. I almost wonder if he took some 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:11.080 of these parts back to wherever and reassembled him into 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.880 a sort of fat kind of thing, you know, maybe 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:18.600 some sort of weird no no, because that's that's a 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:23.720 really disturbing Stein Trophy wall thing. Yeah, we're moving forward. 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:29.000 It is Halloween. Jane Doe. Number five still grosses me 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:32.320 out in it a little gross. Eighth victim, seventh body 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:36.320 to be found, was found in the same spot that 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:38.880 the Lady of the Lake was found. And this is 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:42.920 like a year after the Lady of two years two 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:46.000 years later, yeah about and her head was never found. 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:51.320 John No. Number seven kind of typical body found no 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:55.480 head so they can identify him. He was ninth murder 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.000 victim and also the ninth found and they pulled him 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:00.480 out at the river. Now, that's one of the things 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:04.200 we haven't really talked about is and I think maybe 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.480 it is a little important for people to know. Some 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:11.880 of these bodies are found in fields, some are found 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:14.880 on the banks of the river. Some because they're found 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:16.680 on the banks of the river, they find some of 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.600 the other body parts because they're dredging them out of 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:25.080 the river. But it's really inconsistent as to where they're 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.119 showing up, and it's kind of willy nilly. Yeah, actually, 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.040 if you're but if you're the killer. You don't want 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:33.640 to be like you don't want to be totally consistent, 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:36.240 because that's a way to catch you. Well it works 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.960 for Dexter. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, Okay. The 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:44.400 next one is John Doe ten, who was found at 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:48.320 the same time as Jane Doe nine. He was the 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:52.600 tenth victim, twelfth found. Jane do nine was the eleventh victim, 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:58.200 eleventh found. Uh. He was a decapitated body. His head 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:02.080 was found in a can close by. She was a 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:06.360 decapitated female body. Her head was also found. Now let's see, 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:08.480 he was were I'm sorry, and they were found in 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:12.360 the Lake Shore dump. I found it and and it's 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:15.359 and they it's believed they weren't actually murdered at the 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.560 same time, though, I think again this goes back. Yeah, 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.199 that where they're found is that like the murder or 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:27.960 the whoever the perpetrator is dumps two bodies in one place, 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:32.200 but there's months apart between the killings. Yeah. So John 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:35.960 Doe ten was estimated to have died seven to nine 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:40.679 months prior to his discovery, and Jane Doe nine was 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:43.320 four to six months. So within the span of a 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:49.400 couple of months, this person dumped two decapitated bodies at 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:51.199 the same spot, at the same spot. But you know, 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:54.320 since since it hadn't hit the news that John Doe 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.399 X or John Doe ten had been found, then he 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.200 probably realized that was a safe place to go back to. Well. Yeah, 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:03.440 and the thing is, it's not as if the bodies 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:05.760 were laid on top of each other. I mean, it's 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:08.679 it was a dump walked into a dump. I know 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:11.680 that some of these it was it was his. Uh, 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.080 I mean they go to extensive roll them into a 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:17.160 rug and then roll that into a quilt and then 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:19.000 throw them in the dump. I mean, it wasn't like 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:23.159 these bodies were just cast out and blatantly naked human 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:26.800 being parts and pieces laying around for a lot of times. 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:29.800 Some of them are rolled up and hidden in things 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.000 like the can that you talked about that the head 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:35.960 was in. So these whoever is doing this and I 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.760 want to say guy, just because the violent nature of it, 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:44.760 But the person that's doing this is attempting to disguise 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:50.119 what they're doing and hiding the remains, you know, whether 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:52.440 it be a poor job of rolling it in the 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:55.040 rug or tossing it in the river. They're still trying 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:57.240 to to hide them. It's not as if they're just 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:03.120 laying on the sidewalk. So, by the way, did did 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:05.640 they like go through all the piles of trash out 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:07.359 there and see if there were any more bodies? I 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:12.119 have no idea, I would assume I m okay. The 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:16.919 searches were very extensive after every single one of the findings. 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:20.040 I imagine they poured a lot of resources into this one. Yeah. Um. 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:25.600 And the last victim, last canticonical victim is what they 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:29.359 they're calling them. She's the twelfth victim, the tenth body 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.600 to be discovered, Jane do eight. She's found in April 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:37.480 of nineteen and on that day only the lower leg 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:43.600 one lower leg, so like her thigh or her calf, 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:49.159 was found. And a month later, a human thigh was 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:53.240 discovered floating in the river west of a bridge in Cleveland. 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:57.760 Police officers, of course decided, oh well, we better search uh, 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:00.719 And they found a burlap sack containing a headless torso 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.600 cut in half, another thigh, and a left foot, all 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:07.639 belonging to the same body, and the head and the 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:11.320 rest of the body were never found. But this is 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:13.320 the victim that Steve was talking about a little bit 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.439 with the um the second corner who's kind of involved 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:19.640 in this case. He found drugs in her system, and 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:23.639 again there's not a whole mess of information, but we 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:26.240 don't Yeah, we don't really, we don't totally know. And 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:29.080 this guy, uh, we will probably talk about a little 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:32.639 bit later, was like, really there was a lot of 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:35.359 crime happening in Cleveland at the time, and he was 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:38.919 like getting pretty famous on like testifying and these like 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:44.760 really people and so how much he just sensationalized it 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:47.639 and said, oh yeah, no, yeah, there were drugs in 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:51.120 her system. But how much of it was true? It's 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:54.399 it's hard to tell. So they when you find a 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:57.159 body that's been dismembered, there's obviously not going to be 0:21:57.200 --> 0:21:59.120 any blood left. It's all going to over run out. 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:02.400 How do you test for drugs? And I think it 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:07.360 depends on how when they were dismembered. This is so gross, 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:10.439 it doesn't I mean I think that blood kind of 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:15.920 thickens and settles and if it's not a fresh body. Um, well, no, 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:18.920 the way I the way I understand it I would 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:24.400 think about it is okay, Well, blood is the circulatory 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:30.560 system that pushes the drug through your body. But your body, 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:36.119 the tissues in locations, has to absorb that drug, so 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:39.400 it's absorbed into the tissue of let's say your liver 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:44.760 or your brain, or you know, whatever organ it might be. 0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:49.879 So if the blood is all gone, the remnants or 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:54.600 the traces of that should still be in the organs 0:22:54.640 --> 0:22:58.720 because they've absorbed whatever chemical that is or whatever drug 0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:02.399 that is. Regard list of the presence of blood. Do 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:04.840 you know what I'm saying. It's like, I mean, it's 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:07.720 like ink and water on paper. I've got ink and 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:10.080 I mixed water with it, and I drip it on paper. 0:23:10.440 --> 0:23:13.720 The ink of or the water evaporates, but I've still 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:17.399 got remnants of ink on that piece of paper because 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:19.960 the ink has been absorbed by the paper, though the 0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:22.120 water is no longer press it. But I mean, I 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:25.600 think that it really seems likely to me that the 0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:29.480 killer probably drugged all of those victims because as a 0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:33.159 way too, because otherwise overpowering somebody and decapitating, especially a 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:36.640 man while still alive, well, it's not necessarily an easy 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:39.879 thing to do well, and not everything lass in the system. 0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:42.760 That's that's one of the things I questioned about this. 0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:46.040 The drugs in the system. These a lot of things 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:50.320 don't let they break down regardless of being alive or hut, 0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:54.040 the copy just break down. And also, you know, I 0:23:54.040 --> 0:23:59.119 think it's worth mentioning that these these were unidentified people 0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:03.200 because how for horrible this sounds. By and large, people 0:24:03.240 --> 0:24:06.040 didn't care about them, you know. I mean, like, if 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:08.200 you've got alone in the world, Yeah, if you've got 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:10.280 a family who really cares about you, they're going to 0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:15.280 be really litigious and like really search out anybody that 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:20.840 might be you, like family, like a prostitute or a 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:23.680 homeless guy. Nobody cares. I mean, or maybe one person does, 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:27.359 but they don't they don't know how to really explore 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:30.320 that or for whatever reason, I don't think that we 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:33.680 can really with any kind of certainty say these people 0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:38.320 weren't doing drugs like that just on their own, like 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:42.560 voluntarily putting those drugs in their body. Well, and you know, 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:45.720 the thirties were a weird time for drugs. Well, and 0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:48.720 what I was going to say is, I'm not casting 0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:53.080 any negative on any of the victims, but if you're 0:24:53.240 --> 0:24:57.920 in what equates to a skid row situation and you're 0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:01.760 turning to alcohol and hugs, to make the days go 0:25:01.840 --> 0:25:05.080 by and to make them easier, You're going to do 0:25:05.240 --> 0:25:10.840 whatever alleviate your pain. So it's quite likely that all 0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:15.000 of these people were doing drugs of some sort, whether 0:25:15.280 --> 0:25:18.520 it was what was administered to them by our killer, 0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:22.679 or if they just went down and they found this 0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:25.920 new drug that's called heroin, because heroin had just come out, 0:25:26.480 --> 0:25:28.959 and I'm going to try this heroin thing, and wow, 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:32.240 I really feel better about myself. Yeah, I have fun 0:25:32.280 --> 0:25:34.480 stuff out hear. I've never tried it myself, so I can. 0:25:36.080 --> 0:25:38.320 I don't know that it's really actually fun stuff based 0:25:38.320 --> 0:25:40.600 on the stories that we've heard. So it's fun to 0:25:40.640 --> 0:25:42.920 start out with, but after that it kind of goes downhill. 0:25:43.320 --> 0:25:49.359 There are a number of lis or like maybe other 0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:54.879