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Speaker 1: Hey guys, the Thinking Sideways the podcast. I'm Devin, I

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Speaker 1: guess as always, yes, joined by hand, Steve, I guess

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Speaker 1: or whatever. My English name of case you're confused is chow. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: that just like let's just clear things up right there. Today. Um,

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Speaker 1: we're continuing on our series of Halloween mysteries, and I

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Speaker 1: guess I should add the caveat that. Um, if you

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Speaker 1: don't already know about this mystery, unsolved mystery, it's pretty gruesome.

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Speaker 1: So as we have said before, squeamish or if you

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Speaker 1: have young children or really like children kind of at all, uh,

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Speaker 1: maybe this is not an episode for you. And also

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Speaker 1: before we too far, I guess, um, this is a

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Speaker 1: listeners suggestion from Hunter. Thank you. We're gonna We're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about the Mad Butcher of Kingsbury Run, also known

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Speaker 1: as the Torso Murders or the Cleveland Cleveland. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of different names. Yeah, this this was really difficult

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Speaker 1: to do research on because it does go by different

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Speaker 1: a half dozen names, which is annoying. Yes, I agreed,

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Speaker 1: but it does help with a copy paste issue that

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Speaker 1: we always complain about on the internet. Yeah, it's true, alright,

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Speaker 1: yous ready, Yeah, we're so we're going to Cleveland nineteen thirties.

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Speaker 1: We have to Yeah, in the nineteen thirties, it might

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Speaker 1: be fun. Roaring thirties. Well, by all accounts, it's a

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Speaker 1: city on the rise despite the effects of the Great Depression.

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Speaker 1: Um many many people are doing pretty okay. And we're

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Speaker 1: going to Kingsbury Run. So prehistoric riverbed running from the

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Speaker 1: flats which is the backs of the to about East

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Speaker 1: nineties Street. I know that that doesn't make sense to

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Speaker 1: most people, but I guess that people in Cleveland it

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Speaker 1: probably won't make sense. And it's not so much a

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Speaker 1: river as it is just like a kind Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think that people are probably not going to get to

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Speaker 1: get more go out and google it. It's it's just

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Speaker 1: a depression in the earth that water flows through. But

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Speaker 1: it's not a river bed that are proved very attractive

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Speaker 1: to poor people back in during the Depression. Well, the

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Speaker 1: train and um any kind of rapid transit tracks still

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Speaker 1: run through it. But the trains did run through it,

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Speaker 1: and train tracks especially in the like right around the

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Speaker 1: Great Depression time. That's that's really popular with vagabonds and

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Speaker 1: sort of yeah, well just you know, people without a

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Speaker 1: home or run down on their luck because you can

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Speaker 1: just hop on a box car and get someplace else.

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Speaker 1: So that's it's a pretty attractive and as as we

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Speaker 1: were just kind of saying, I guess it's the people

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Speaker 1: who are not in that hole like many people doing

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Speaker 1: well again group, Yeah, they lived in really really awful conditions,

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Speaker 1: you know, like filth and trash and kind of shantytowns exactly. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And most of the people that lived there were transience

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Speaker 1: and they road box cars mostly to escape Cleveland winters

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Speaker 1: because Cleveland is not super fun in the winter, which

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Speaker 1: is a very cold place in the winter. Yes, I wouldn't.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to be homeless or a transient and

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Speaker 1: be there. I I would. I would turn into a

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Speaker 1: snowbird and head south for the winter. You know me too. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And the area just east of the run is known

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Speaker 1: well was known as the Roaring Third. It was mostly bars, brothels,

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Speaker 1: flop houses, and gambling dens, which more fun back in

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Speaker 1: those days. Yeah. Well, I think that that's kind of

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Speaker 1: the like transient area, right, Like you've got like people

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Speaker 1: who are really really out on their luck, hobo has

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Speaker 1: lost everything, and then you've got the area where people

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Speaker 1: become really really kind of gray area. Yeah, it's that

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Speaker 1: like filter zone that people go through. So September of

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty four is kind of when this whole mystery starts.

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Speaker 1: A young man finds the lower half of a woman's

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Speaker 1: torso thighs still attached but amputated at the knee, washed

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Speaker 1: up on the shores of ach Leary. That spoiler day,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't it like erie? Yeah? Sorry? Uh? And as as mentioned,

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Speaker 1: it's just going to get morgrosome from here. So if

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Speaker 1: that freaked you out, just stopped. Now. Yeah October it

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Speaker 1: is October, so are doing the creepy stuff that County corner. A. J.

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Speaker 1: Pierce noted that there was some kind of chemical preservative

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Speaker 1: on the skin that had made it turn red, tough

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Speaker 1: and leathery, and we'll kind of talk about that a

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Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah, sure, she wasn't just really in the

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Speaker 1: like sun tanning. It's possible, but in the thirties I

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Speaker 1: think it was more like don't han They were back

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Speaker 1: on the non kick. There was a search and they

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Speaker 1: found just a couple other body parts. It was identified

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Speaker 1: as a female in her mid thirties. The head to

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Speaker 1: this body was never found. The woman was never identified.

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Speaker 1: She is referred to as the Lady of the Lake,

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Speaker 1: and she is labeled as victim number zero. So the

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Speaker 1: one thing that disturbs me through and this this one,

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Speaker 1: there's one thing that disturbs me through all of these

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Speaker 1: and I know we're going to get into it, but

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Speaker 1: it's the head factor. The missing heads are the cree

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Speaker 1: epeist thing in the world. There's a is it. Joe

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Speaker 1: Pesci was in a movie that he had a head

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Speaker 1: in a bowling ball bag or something, and I kept

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Speaker 1: thinking back to that movie because it's just it's that

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Speaker 1: creepy factor. Anybody who knows that movie, they're gonna understand. Yeah, it's, uh,

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Speaker 1: the whole idea of just dismembering people and chopping them up.

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Speaker 1: It's just kind of just in general, Yeah, something I

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Speaker 1: would care to do, but apparently it's different tastes, you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, each their own or whatever exactly. You know,

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Speaker 1: it might have been that the murder had a sense

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Speaker 1: of humor though she had great legs. Yeah, all right,

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Speaker 1: yeah that didn't work. Please continue on before I make

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Speaker 1: a bigger So we're going to do that thing that

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Speaker 1: we do sometimes where we basically just list the victims.

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Speaker 1: There's twelve. We're gonna keep it short as possible, but

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Speaker 1: there are things that differ between each of them, so

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Speaker 1: please bear with us because and if not fast forward

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Speaker 1: like fifteen minutes, then we'll probably still be talking about that.

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Speaker 1: Just skip the next fifteen. Yeah. So John Doe number

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Speaker 1: one was the second body to be discovered be discovered,

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Speaker 1: but he was likely the first murder victim. He was

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Speaker 1: discovered on September five, and he was never identified. He,

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Speaker 1: like most of the male victims, was emasculated and decapitated.

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Speaker 1: His head was recovered, however, and his skin also had

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Speaker 1: the chemical agent that had caused it to become red

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Speaker 1: and leathery. The next one is probably it was the

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Speaker 1: first body found, but probably the second victim, and he

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Speaker 1: was found also September five. He was found like nine

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Speaker 1: meters thirty feet away from John Doe one. He had

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Speaker 1: also been decapitated and emasculated, and he was identified, which

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Speaker 1: is rare. Next up is Florence Eneviev. Wait, what was

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Speaker 1: the name of the last Oh gosh, I'm sorry. It

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Speaker 1: was Edward anders and Andersey. Yeah, he had a name there.

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Speaker 1: He was identified, So I wanted to make sure we come. Yes. Uh,

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Speaker 1: Florence Genevieve Plelio. She was found on January and February seven.

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Speaker 1: Her body had been dismembered fully, uh, and her head

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Speaker 1: was never found. It's not clear how they identified her.

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Speaker 1: That's a good point. I mean, maybe she had tattoos

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Speaker 1: or something. I think that they correlated some missing person reports.

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Speaker 1: I don't think she had tattoos, but I think that

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Speaker 1: it was a missing report, missing person report, if I

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Speaker 1: remember correctly. And that's the hard part. There's so many

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Speaker 1: of these people that I'm trying to, you know, rattle

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Speaker 1: through the card catalog of my brain. But I think

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Speaker 1: that is how they figured out who she was. So

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Speaker 1: then John Doe three, this is that particularly disturbing one.

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Speaker 1: He was the fifth body to be found. Fourth victim, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: July of dismembered while alive. Yeah, lucky guy. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure if this killer drug victims or not, if they

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Speaker 1: were out. I don't think anybody knows anything about the victims.

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Speaker 1: Actually I do know that. Um, are you going to

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Speaker 1: talk about the medical examiners that are involved in this case?

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Speaker 1: By chance? A little? Okay? Because I can't remember the name,

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Speaker 1: and maybe you do of the second examiner that came

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Speaker 1: in near the end of things, but he somehow seemed

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Speaker 1: to have figured out that there was some kind of

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Speaker 1: chemical in their system, or at least in one of

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Speaker 1: the victims, but he couldn't figure out if was because

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Speaker 1: that person was drugged or if they were a junkie

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Speaker 1: for lack of a better term. And the fact that

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Speaker 1: that person's arms were never found to tell if they

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Speaker 1: had injection points repetitive made it hard. So we don't

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Speaker 1: know if they were being drugged or not. Well, there's

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot of kind of stuff about the

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Speaker 1: corners and how thorough and John Doe three is the

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Speaker 1: only victim that was found on the west side of Cleveland.

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Speaker 1: I guess it's my only worth mentioning. John do number

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Speaker 1: two was the fourth victim to be found, fifth victim

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Speaker 1: to be murdered. I know, it's a little wonky. It's

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Speaker 1: hard with these guys. Well this is well, the discovery

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Speaker 1: dates are the hard part. Yeah, John Do number two,

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Speaker 1: he was the fourth discovered body five victim. And this

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Speaker 1: is this is because of the discovery dates. Yeah, it's hard.

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Speaker 1: I'm I've ordered them by murder date. But I think

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Speaker 1: It's also important to mention the discovery date because John

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Speaker 1: Doe number two was discovered before John No. Number three.

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Speaker 1: Though John Doe number three was murdered before John Doe

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Speaker 1: number two. That makes sense. They're numbered by discovery date.

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Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, we will make a real goldburger machine. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter too much. But he was decapitated

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Speaker 1: while alive as well, and his head was recovered. He

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Speaker 1: also was had some interesting little bits about him. He

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Speaker 1: was estimated to be in his mid twenties and had

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Speaker 1: six unusual tattoos on his body. One included the names

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Speaker 1: Helen and Paul, and the other had initials W C G.

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Speaker 1: And his undershorts bore a laundry mark that had his

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Speaker 1: initials right like in that time, I'm you would write

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Speaker 1: your initials or your name in your laundry. So if

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Speaker 1: you were all going in on one bulk laundry order, yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And the initials were J D. And since they found

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Speaker 1: his head, they did what's called the death mask, which

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Speaker 1: I think we've talked about a little bit, but they

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Speaker 1: cast the face and they recreate what it might have

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Speaker 1: looked like alive, and they publicized photos of that apparently

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Speaker 1: those things that those things are still laying around somewhere

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Speaker 1: in Cleveland too. Yeah, So despite the fact that they

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Speaker 1: circulated the death mask and on his unusual tattoos, this

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Speaker 1: this John Doe was clearly since he's a John Doe

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Speaker 1: was still never identified. Maybe j d stood for John Doe,

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Speaker 1: maybe it stood for John Dillinger. There could have been

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Speaker 1: a lot of things. But they call him the tattooed

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Speaker 1: man because he's he's one of the few that has

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Speaker 1: identifying marks. So but since he was wearing is he's

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Speaker 1: wearing a short, it's presumably was not evasculated. Presumably. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't see anything here, but I haven't read anything

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Speaker 1: that's as he was. Okay, So the next victim is

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Speaker 1: Jane Doe, number six, who was the sixth murder victim.

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Speaker 1: She was the eight discovery. But um, they didn't they couldn't.

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Speaker 1: They didn't identify the bodies of the previous women for

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Speaker 1: the most part until later. So there are a couple

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Speaker 1: that were Jane Does. While the investigation was ongoing, there

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Speaker 1: were likely other Jane Does happening. The Jane Does get

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Speaker 1: a little out of order, actually they get a lot

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Speaker 1: out of order. There are going to be some more

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Speaker 1: Jane Does that are weirdly numbered and it's later. It's again,

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Speaker 1: this is based on not date of it's the confusion

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Speaker 1: is date of murder versus date of discovery. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: the Jane Does are different than the John Does. And

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Speaker 1: part of that has to do with the fact that

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Speaker 1: a couple of the Jane Does were in fact identified.

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Speaker 1: Why can't we just use the Dewey desk fol system, right,

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Speaker 1: So this one actually is very interesting. She was the

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Speaker 1: only black victim. She was decapitated, but she was also

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Speaker 1: missing a rib and her head was discovered, and they

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Speaker 1: thought perhaps that they had identified her as a woman

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Speaker 1: named Rose Wallace. Dental work, you know, the like the

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Speaker 1: tooth records, which is what dental work means, was a

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Speaker 1: pretty close match. The police said that her son was

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Speaker 1: very positive that that was his mom. He identified her,

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Speaker 1: But did they actually show him the head. I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to think of what that would be like. Suspect seed head. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I suspect they did a death mask. Well hopefully they didn't.

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Speaker 1: But well, but she'd been dead for a long she'd

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Speaker 1: been dead for here when they found her, and the

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Speaker 1: dentist who carried out her dental work. Who could like

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Speaker 1: look at it and be like, yes, that's my handiwork

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Speaker 1: and she was my patient died years before, So the

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Speaker 1: police never officially identified her as Rose Wallace despite so

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Speaker 1: that's why there's no official stuff. And additionally, her body

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Speaker 1: had been estimated to have been dead for a year,

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Speaker 1: but Rose Wallace had only been reported missing for ten months.

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Speaker 1: That's that's not a big so weird because I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, a year, come on, that's that's a rounding thing,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like ten months. So absolutely, yeah, especially

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Speaker 1: in this climate with all this stuff happening, he totally

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Speaker 1: could have been here. So it's likely that that Jane

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Speaker 1: Doe was in fact Rose Wallace, but we don't know. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Next is John Doe. Four, John Doe. He was the

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Speaker 1: seventh murder victim, sixth body to be found. Uh and

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Speaker 1: only half of his torso was found nothing below the hips,

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Speaker 1: no head, no head. Yeah, so he did not have

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Speaker 1: great legs. He maybe he had such great legs that

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Speaker 1: the murder had to keep them. Maybe. Yeah, he almost

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Speaker 1: a trophy. Yeah. I almost wonder if he took some

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Speaker 1: of these parts back to wherever and reassembled him into

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Speaker 1: a sort of fat kind of thing, you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: some sort of weird no no, because that's that's a

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Speaker 1: really disturbing Stein Trophy wall thing. Yeah, we're moving forward.

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Speaker 1: It is Halloween. Jane Doe. Number five still grosses me

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Speaker 1: out in it a little gross. Eighth victim, seventh body

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Speaker 1: to be found, was found in the same spot that

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Speaker 1: the Lady of the Lake was found. And this is

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Speaker 1: like a year after the Lady of two years two

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Speaker 1: years later, yeah about and her head was never found.

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Speaker 1: John No. Number seven kind of typical body found no

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Speaker 1: head so they can identify him. He was ninth murder

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Speaker 1: victim and also the ninth found and they pulled him

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Speaker 1: out at the river. Now, that's one of the things

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Speaker 1: we haven't really talked about is and I think maybe

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Speaker 1: it is a little important for people to know. Some

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Speaker 1: of these bodies are found in fields, some are found

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Speaker 1: on the banks of the river. Some because they're found

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Speaker 1: on the banks of the river, they find some of

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Speaker 1: the other body parts because they're dredging them out of

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Speaker 1: the river. But it's really inconsistent as to where they're

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Speaker 1: showing up, and it's kind of willy nilly. Yeah, actually,

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Speaker 1: if you're but if you're the killer. You don't want

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Speaker 1: to be like you don't want to be totally consistent,

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Speaker 1: because that's a way to catch you. Well it works

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Speaker 1: for Dexter. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, Okay. The

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Speaker 1: next one is John Doe ten, who was found at

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Speaker 1: the same time as Jane Doe nine. He was the

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Speaker 1: tenth victim, twelfth found. Jane do nine was the eleventh victim,

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Speaker 1: eleventh found. Uh. He was a decapitated body. His head

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Speaker 1: was found in a can close by. She was a

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Speaker 1: decapitated female body. Her head was also found. Now let's see,

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Speaker 1: he was were I'm sorry, and they were found in

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Speaker 1: the Lake Shore dump. I found it and and it's

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Speaker 1: and they it's believed they weren't actually murdered at the

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Speaker 1: same time, though, I think again this goes back. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that where they're found is that like the murder or

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Speaker 1: the whoever the perpetrator is dumps two bodies in one place,

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Speaker 1: but there's months apart between the killings. Yeah. So John

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Speaker 1: Doe ten was estimated to have died seven to nine

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Speaker 1: months prior to his discovery, and Jane Doe nine was

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Speaker 1: four to six months. So within the span of a

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Speaker 1: couple of months, this person dumped two decapitated bodies at

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Speaker 1: the same spot, at the same spot. But you know,

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Speaker 1: since since it hadn't hit the news that John Doe

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Speaker 1: X or John Doe ten had been found, then he

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Speaker 1: probably realized that was a safe place to go back to. Well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the thing is, it's not as if the bodies

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Speaker 1: were laid on top of each other. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: it was a dump walked into a dump. I know

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Speaker 1: that some of these it was it was his. Uh,

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Speaker 1: I mean they go to extensive roll them into a

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Speaker 1: rug and then roll that into a quilt and then

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Speaker 1: throw them in the dump. I mean, it wasn't like

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Speaker 1: these bodies were just cast out and blatantly naked human

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Speaker 1: being parts and pieces laying around for a lot of times.

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Speaker 1: Some of them are rolled up and hidden in things

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Speaker 1: like the can that you talked about that the head

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Speaker 1: was in. So these whoever is doing this and I

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Speaker 1: want to say guy, just because the violent nature of it,

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Speaker 1: But the person that's doing this is attempting to disguise

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Speaker 1: what they're doing and hiding the remains, you know, whether

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Speaker 1: it be a poor job of rolling it in the

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Speaker 1: rug or tossing it in the river. They're still trying

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Speaker 1: to to hide them. It's not as if they're just

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Speaker 1: laying on the sidewalk. So, by the way, did did

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Speaker 1: they like go through all the piles of trash out

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Speaker 1: there and see if there were any more bodies? I

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Speaker 1: have no idea, I would assume I m okay. The

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Speaker 1: searches were very extensive after every single one of the findings.

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Speaker 1: I imagine they poured a lot of resources into this one. Yeah. Um.

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Speaker 1: And the last victim, last canticonical victim is what they

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Speaker 1: they're calling them. She's the twelfth victim, the tenth body

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Speaker 1: to be discovered, Jane do eight. She's found in April

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Speaker 1: of nineteen and on that day only the lower leg

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Speaker 1: one lower leg, so like her thigh or her calf,

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Speaker 1: was found. And a month later, a human thigh was

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Speaker 1: discovered floating in the river west of a bridge in Cleveland.

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Speaker 1: Police officers, of course decided, oh well, we better search uh,

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Speaker 1: And they found a burlap sack containing a headless torso

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Speaker 1: cut in half, another thigh, and a left foot, all

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Speaker 1: belonging to the same body, and the head and the

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Speaker 1: rest of the body were never found. But this is

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Speaker 1: the victim that Steve was talking about a little bit

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Speaker 1: with the um the second corner who's kind of involved

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Speaker 1: in this case. He found drugs in her system, and

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Speaker 1: again there's not a whole mess of information, but we

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Speaker 1: don't Yeah, we don't really, we don't totally know. And

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Speaker 1: this guy, uh, we will probably talk about a little

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Speaker 1: bit later, was like, really there was a lot of

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Speaker 1: crime happening in Cleveland at the time, and he was

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Speaker 1: like getting pretty famous on like testifying and these like

334
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Speaker 1: really people and so how much he just sensationalized it

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00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,639
Speaker 1: and said, oh yeah, no, yeah, there were drugs in

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Speaker 1: her system. But how much of it was true? It's

337
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,399
Speaker 1: it's hard to tell. So they when you find a

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Speaker 1: body that's been dismembered, there's obviously not going to be

339
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Speaker 1: any blood left. It's all going to over run out.

340
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Speaker 1: How do you test for drugs? And I think it

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00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,360
Speaker 1: depends on how when they were dismembered. This is so gross,

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00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,439
Speaker 1: it doesn't I mean I think that blood kind of

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00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 1: thickens and settles and if it's not a fresh body. Um, well, no,

344
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Speaker 1: the way I the way I understand it I would

345
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:24,400
Speaker 1: think about it is okay, Well, blood is the circulatory

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Speaker 1: system that pushes the drug through your body. But your body,

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00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 1: the tissues in locations, has to absorb that drug, so

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00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,400
Speaker 1: it's absorbed into the tissue of let's say your liver

349
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Speaker 1: or your brain, or you know, whatever organ it might be.

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Speaker 1: So if the blood is all gone, the remnants or

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00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 1: the traces of that should still be in the organs

352
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 1: because they've absorbed whatever chemical that is or whatever drug

353
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Speaker 1: that is. Regard list of the presence of blood. Do

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Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. It's like, I mean, it's

355
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Speaker 1: like ink and water on paper. I've got ink and

356
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 1: I mixed water with it, and I drip it on paper.

357
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: The ink of or the water evaporates, but I've still

358
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 1: got remnants of ink on that piece of paper because

359
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 1: the ink has been absorbed by the paper, though the

360
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,120
Speaker 1: water is no longer press it. But I mean, I

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00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: think that it really seems likely to me that the

362
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 1: killer probably drugged all of those victims because as a

363
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 1: way too, because otherwise overpowering somebody and decapitating, especially a

364
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 1: man while still alive, well, it's not necessarily an easy

365
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 1: thing to do well, and not everything lass in the system.

366
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Speaker 1: That's that's one of the things I questioned about this.

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Speaker 1: The drugs in the system. These a lot of things

368
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 1: don't let they break down regardless of being alive or hut,

369
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 1: the copy just break down. And also, you know, I

370
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 1: think it's worth mentioning that these these were unidentified people

371
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 1: because how for horrible this sounds. By and large, people

372
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: didn't care about them, you know. I mean, like, if

373
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Speaker 1: you've got alone in the world, Yeah, if you've got

374
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: a family who really cares about you, they're going to

375
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: be really litigious and like really search out anybody that

376
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: might be you, like family, like a prostitute or a

377
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 1: homeless guy. Nobody cares. I mean, or maybe one person does,

378
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: but they don't they don't know how to really explore

379
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 1: that or for whatever reason, I don't think that we

380
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 1: can really with any kind of certainty say these people

381
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: weren't doing drugs like that just on their own, like

382
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: voluntarily putting those drugs in their body. Well, and you know,

383
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: the thirties were a weird time for drugs. Well, and

384
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: what I was going to say is, I'm not casting

385
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: any negative on any of the victims, but if you're

386
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: in what equates to a skid row situation and you're

387
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: turning to alcohol and hugs, to make the days go

388
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: by and to make them easier, You're going to do

389
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: whatever alleviate your pain. So it's quite likely that all

390
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 1: of these people were doing drugs of some sort, whether

391
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: it was what was administered to them by our killer,

392
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 1: or if they just went down and they found this

393
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: new drug that's called heroin, because heroin had just come out,

394
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,959
Speaker 1: and I'm going to try this heroin thing, and wow,

395
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: I really feel better about myself. Yeah, I have fun

396
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: stuff out hear. I've never tried it myself, so I can.

397
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: I don't know that it's really actually fun stuff based

398
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: on the stories that we've heard. So it's fun to

399
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: start out with, but after that it kind of goes downhill.

400
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: There are a number of lis or like maybe other

401
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 1: victors connection. Yeah, there it's interesting. Um So. On July

402
00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: one of nineteen thirty six, a headless unidentified mail was

403
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 1: found in a box car in Newcastle, Pennsylvania. Then three

404
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: headless victims were found in box cars near McKees Rock, Pennsylvania,

405
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: um in May of nineteen forty. They all kind of

406
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: had similar injuries as those that were attributed to the

407
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: Cleveland Killer or the Kingsbury Run killer murderer lots of

408
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 1: dismembered bodies were found in the swamps near Newcastle, Pennsylvania,

409
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 1: between the years of night one and nineteen thirty four,

410
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 1: and then again between nineteen thirty nine and nineteen forty two.

411
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 1: That's interesting. And then in September of nineteen forty an

412
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: article in the Newcastle News refers to um this killer

413
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 1: as the murder swamp killer, which is the worst name

414
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: I've ever and credits him with I think it was

415
00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: seventeen murders in Newcastle over the years. The and the

416
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: victims were like, what was inflicted on them was almost

417
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: identical to what was going on in Cleveland's Kingsbury Run,

418
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: which conveniently were connected directly by a Baltimore and Ohio

419
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: railroad line, which, as you will remember, runs right through

420
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: Kingsbury Run. But apparently the Cleveland detective Peter Merlo went

421
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: and ll Marillo Yeah sorry, he was pretty sure that

422
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: the Newcastle murders were in fact the work of the

423
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 1: mad butcher of Kingsbury Run. But these were just headless corpses, right,

424
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: you know, it's hard. I couldn't find a whole lot

425
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: of information some of them. I think we're headless corpses.

426
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: I think a lot of them were otherwise dismembered as well.

427
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: The railroad in question here ran twice a day every

428
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: day between the two cities. Um. And in fact, how

429
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: did we just say decide that we're saying that name?

430
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: Marilla rode that train undercover like all the time to

431
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: try and identify the killer, and he never never could. Yes,

432
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: it's it's possible, actually, um all we know. And then

433
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: in uh July of nineteen fifty, the body of a

434
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 1: forty one year old man named Robert Robertson was found

435
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: in a business in Cleveland, and police said that he

436
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: had been dead for like six to eight weeks, but

437
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: he had been intentionally decapitated, and apparently he seemed to

438
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: kind of fit the profile of the other victims. He

439
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: was a stranger from his family, he had an arrest record,

440
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: he had a drinking problem, he was kind of on

441
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: the fringes of society, and the police decided to not

442
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: link it to them. The mad Butcher of Kingsbury run

443
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: murder time. It was twenty years of essential well, I

444
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 1: was twenty years Oh yeah, I guess ten years twelve

445
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: twe twelve years long enough. They don't want to dredge

446
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: up that case they couldn't figure out right and get

447
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: the egg back on their faces. Yeah not not everybody

448
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: who gets their head chopped off is necessarily related to

449
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: this thing. It does happen, But I think that it

450
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: is odd that and worth note, I guess since I

451
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: did note it that in Baltimore just you know, a

452
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: box car hop away a bunch of people. Around that time,

453
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: we're also showing up decapitated or otherwise dismembered. So suspects.

454
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: This is where we get even more frustrated, right, like,

455
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: not only can we not identify most of these bodies,

456
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: and like we don't have a whole lot of information,

457
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: but also there's like two suspects. This is what this

458
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: is the part of the story the infuriate. Apparently they

459
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: had like a lot of suspects. They held a lot

460
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: of people in for questioning. Yeah, well there's only two

461
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: like viable, but yeah, they probably beat the crap out

462
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: of a hell of a lot of people. Confession. Let's

463
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: just say that police interrogative techniques at the time, we're

464
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: not at Geneva convention. Yeah, alright, so the first one

465
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: is X or frank adults all how would you say so?

466
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: In um January of nineteen thirty nine, the Cleveland Press

467
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: got a letter from a man who claimed to be

468
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: the killer and identified himself as X. He said that

469
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: he was in California and that he had been killing

470
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: people for medical experiences, experiments, not experiences, and he actually

471
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: referred to the body as quote, laboratory guinea pigs unquote.

472
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: And there were apparently no clues, but somehow the police,

473
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: I don't totally know how, it's super unclear, but somehow

474
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: the police linked this to Frank Dout, Frank whatever. His

475
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: last name is um and he was a fifty two

476
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: year old Slavic immigrant. So on August nine, Frank was

477
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: arrested as a suspect in Florence's murder. You remember she

478
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: was like victim number like three, Yeah, and sorry, he

479
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: had been already. He was in jail. Um, and he

480
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: died under really suspicious circumstances. It's not no, no, this

481
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: is not suspicious in my mind. But explain this. How

482
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: did he die or what are the conditions of his death? Yeah, So,

483
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: after his death, it was discovered that he had suffered

484
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: six broken ribs, injuries that his friends say he definitely

485
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: didn't have when he was arrested by the sheriff six

486
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: weeks prior. Uh. And also he hung himself. Okay, do

487
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: you have the details about him and the hanging. I

488
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: gotta be honest with you. I just skimmed right over

489
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: that because I didn't want to even think about. Here's

490
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: the thing was. Evidently Frank was five ft nine and

491
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: he was in a cell that had a ceiling that

492
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: from Florida ceiling was five ft seven inches, and and

493
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: he hung himself. Now I thought I thought the ceiling

494
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: was higher than that, but the nail he was five

495
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: seven in the sea and the room was five nine.

496
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: You're right, I got it backwards. But it's a two

497
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: inch span, which is really really hard to hang yourself from.

498
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: I didn't hang himself from the ceiling, though, I mean

499
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: the ceiling. What I understood is that the nail or

500
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: whatever it is that hung himself, I'm protruded from the wall,

501
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: and that was five ft seven inches from the floor,

502
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: and that he was, and that he was five nine. Okay,

503
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: still possible to hang yourself from that, because I's forgot

504
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: the five extremely difficult. Someone bends their legs and they

505
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: are suspended, but this. This is a very suspicious hanging,

506
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: is what I'm getting at. What people have actually hung

507
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: themselves and some of their circumstances. But also remember five

508
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: ft nine is the distance from the floor to the

509
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: top of his head, not to his neck, right, not

510
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: to his neck, So he actually had a few inches

511
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: of play there to hang himself on that peg or

512
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: whatever he hung himself on. He could have done it, yeah,

513
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: but they were determined to kill it. I don't. I mean,

514
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: I'm suspicious, tokay, thank you. That's what I'm getting at

515
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: is it's a very serioious hanging. Yeah, and you know,

516
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: suicide and suspicious suicide. That's where I'm heading. What plays

517
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: into this too is the fact that he apparently confessed

518
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: to killing her in self defense six broken ribs wouldn't

519
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: be yeah, and then a week before his hanging recanted

520
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: and said no, actually I didn't, and in fact said

521
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: that he had been beaten into submission to confessing by

522
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: the police. Yeah. And then he killed himself apparently after

523
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: he said, oh no, the police made me that. Um. Yeah,

524
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: So that's a little suspicious to me. Suspicious, Yeah, it

525
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like the not him not being guilty way right,

526
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: So we're gonna move on to somebody who has a

527
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: lot of suspicious stuff in the opposite way. Dr Francis E. Sweeney.

528
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: Sweeney not related to Sweeney Todd. I don't know. Maybe

529
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: he might be actually be the inspiration for the play. Yeah,

530
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: except that he's like way too late. Yeah, well there's that. Yeah.

531
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 1: So he worked during World War One in a medical

532
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: unit that conducted amputations in the field. He was later

533
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: personally interviewed by Elliott ness Man, who is a bit

534
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: of a character in himself. He um oversaw the official

535
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: investigation of the killings in his capacity as Cleveland's safety director,

536
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: which safety director at that point was like leader of prohibition,

537
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: not actually like any real police stuff. Yeah, it's hard

538
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 1: to say exactly how involved next really hard to say

539
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,359
Speaker 1: it is. What is own is that ness got really

540
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: obsessed with this investigation at length. He cut it, and

541
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: he cut some grief for the fact that the one

542
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: offered so long without. Yeah, so it's it's a bit

543
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: of a mystery. In terms of his actual involvement. I

544
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: will say that Elliott nest did go on to become

545
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: al Capones literal nemesis, because this is real life and

546
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: this is a real story and that really happened. It

547
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: actually happened. The thing about Ness and his involvement is

548
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: depending on the iteration that you read. Some of them

549
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: say that Ness was involved at the ground roots level

550
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: all the time, and some say, oh, no, he didn't

551
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: have anything to do with it except press releases and

552
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: yelling and other cops to figure it out. Let's be

553
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: fair here, Like this is this comes almost straight from Wikipedia, right,

554
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: So you read through the Torso murders slash mad Butcher

555
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: of Kingsbury Run and they're like, oh and then Elliott

556
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: now and you're like, okay, fine, I'll click on the

557
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: Elliott Nest link and like see what's going on. They

558
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 1: don't mention these murders at all in his Wikipedia. Nowhere

559
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: in there is his involvement ever made like it's a

560
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: footnote that he worked in Cleveland for a couple of years. Well,

561
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: that's not what he's really known for and not And also,

562
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: you know the thing about Wikipedia is people can go

563
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 1: in and edit it and descendants, members of his family

564
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: might decide that this wasn't his finest hour and they

565
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: just go in there. Whenever somebody posts something about this stuff,

566
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: they go in and they chop it out. Yeah, let's

567
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I think Wikipedia is a little more sophisticated

568
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 1: at this point than that. It's not like anybody can

569
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: just go in and add things that has to be

570
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: vetted and all that stuff. But in fairness, it's a

571
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 1: little bit of a mystery in terms of what he

572
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: actually was involved in. And I've gotta I gotta tell

573
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: you that personally, from what I can gather, I get

574
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: the impression that Ness was consulted a little bit on

575
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: this case and basically was you ever watched the cop

576
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: show and the cops supervisor comes in and yells at

577
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: a bunch of people to figure it out and get

578
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: off their butts and blah blah blah blah blah. I

579
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: get the feeling that was his involvement, Like he was

580
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: not involved. He was, Hey, Bill and Joe and Bob

581
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: and and Danny figured this out and stop messing around

582
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 1: because I'm catching grief from my boss to not have

583
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: this figured out. And that was it. It's the manure

584
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,959
Speaker 1: flow chart, right, And I think you know again, part

585
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 1: of it is he now is kind of seeing as

586
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: somebody who was involved a lot, because he did write

587
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: this book, and he did talk about it. But I

588
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: think that if you worked in any capacity on an

589
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,240
Speaker 1: unsolved mystery of this kind of magnitude, you would probably

590
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 1: carry some lifelong stuff about it, probably anyway, the exposure

591
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: to it, so anyway anyway. But but it is at

592
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: one point about Ness and Francis Sweeney is that And

593
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: I know you're going to mention the postcards in Nest's favor,

594
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 1: I will say that Francis Sweeney seemed to actually considered

595
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: Nest very important to it's the investigation, because he was

596
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 1: he committed himself and I believe nineteen we're going to

597
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: talk about in the second and we're gonna talk about that.

598
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: But in the seventies, Elliott ness is grant or excuse me,

599
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: her daughter in law donated his papers to the Western

600
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: Reserve Historical Society wherever they are, and they found a

601
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,919
Speaker 1: whole collection of bizarre postcards that were sent to Nest

602
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties by Dr Sweeney and uh and

603
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: they were mostly incoherent, but they were They were signed

604
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: on one card F. E. Sweeney paranoidal Nemesis. So apparently

605
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: he considered Nest to be an important character in this

606
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: whole drama. Yeah, I think he did. So backtrack a

607
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: little bit from where show just went. Um. Sweeney was

608
00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: brought in for investigation for interrogation and apparently they're like

609
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: polygraph tests existed at this time, and he failed to

610
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:10,399
Speaker 1: pass two early polygraph tests. They were both administered by

611
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 1: an expert at the time named Leonard Keeler, who essentially

612
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: apparently told Ness, this is the dude who did it, like,

613
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: this is the guy who killed all these people. However,

614
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 1: Francis Sweeney was the first cousin of one of Ness's

615
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: foremost political opponents and Congressman Martin L. Sweeney, who had

616
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: actually been hounding Ness publicly for not having caught the

617
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: killer yet. Really, yeah, you're kidding. Okay, I caught the

618
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: relation between the two, but I didn't know he's case. Yeah,

619
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 1: So it's this bit of a like honestly, I know

620
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: I talked about this a lot, but it's a bit

621
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,720
Speaker 1: of this like true detective situation where like spoiler alert,

622
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: like the congres Smith is coming in and he's like,

623
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: why haven't you caught the killer yet? When he's like, no,

624
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: I'm not done with the season, don't don't screw this up.

625
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: For me, I'm not done with the season. So yeah,

626
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: well what about it? What about our listeners out there?

627
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: I said, spoilers, But anyway, it's very similar. I'm sorry, okay,

628
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: fine whatever for you guys, just would hurry up. It's

629
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 1: like a year old I no, I apologize anyways. Also

630
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: of like a suspicious kind of vein. The killings um

631
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: stopped for all intents and purposes after Francis Sweeney voluntarily

632
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 1: committed himself to a mental institution where the postcards, the

633
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: aforementioned postcards were sent from. Yeah, and it might be

634
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: that perhaps he committed himself because he realized that he

635
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: was on the path to perdition and he might might

636
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: need to get himself locked up so he couldn't do

637
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: this anymore. And that's but the other thing about it

638
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: is is that Ness obviously felt like he had to

639
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 1: have an air tight case against Sweeney, and he never

640
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: did because I mean, you know, in those days, I

641
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: mean a lot of people got sent away or sent

642
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: to the gallows on as much evidence or less than

643
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: they had against Sweeney. Right, But he has some powerful

644
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: patronage on his side. He did, Yeah, he had some

645
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: some heavy hitters in his side. Of the ring, and

646
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: it's fair to say that the murders, at least the

647
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: ones that are like strongly attributed to the butcher. The

648
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 1: Mad Butcher of Kingsbury run ended in nineteen thirty eight,

649
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 1: which is exactly when he committed himself, and he harassed

650
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 1: nests from the institution that he committed himself to. He

651
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 1: died in a veterans hospital eventually in nineteen sixty four.

652
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: I think it was in Daytona. I'm not I'm not

653
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: defending Sweeney because I think Sweeney was kind of an

654
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: odd character. The things that I've read about him. He

655
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 1: was not straight in the head. But then again, he

656
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: spent he was in the war, so that will do

657
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: things to a guy. But one of the things that

658
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 1: we haven't talked about is that these bodies, when they

659
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 1: were caught up and dismembered, there's disputing accounts that say

660
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,879
Speaker 1: that either a it was done by somebody who had

661
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: surgical knowledge or someone who had been a butcher at

662
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 1: one point and understood physiology. And then there's also the

663
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,720
Speaker 1: counterpoint that people say, oh, no, it was just mad

664
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 1: slashing that happened to cut these bodies a little bit ahead. Yeah,

665
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 1: And there's just like one more thing that I know

666
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 1: Joe wants to talk about in terms I didn't kind

667
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 1: of like evidence towards Sweeney, and then we will absolutely

668
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: sorry about that situation. Yeah. So, Joe, I know that

669
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 1: you had some stuff about Sweeney, that there was an

670
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: incident that you were talking about where somebody maybe survived

671
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: the mad Butcher or Sweeney or something possible. It's it's

672
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 1: possible that this. Can you just real quick? Yeah, So

673
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: this is this guy who was a vagrant guy that

674
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: came through in the trains, just like a lot of people.

675
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: His name was Emil Fronic that's E. M I. L

676
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 1: H so Fronick. In November ninety four, he was homeless

677
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: and a vagrant, and he was hungry, and he was

678
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: walking up Broadway Avenue in Cleveland and apparently he found

679
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 1: himself and the details are scarce here found himself in

680
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 1: the second floor of the doctor's office, and the doctor

681
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: offered to feed him because he was starving. So he

682
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 1: started eating the food and then he started, you know,

683
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: since she was starting to feel woozy. So he started

684
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 1: to suspect that he had been drugs. So he beat

685
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: feet random the steps, got out of there, went down

686
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: to the rail yard. Terms. Yeah, and now I got us,

687
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: wandered to a box car and fell asleep and woke

688
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: up three days later, and yeah, and so anyway, this

689
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: guy decided to leave Cleveland, decided that was bad mojo,

690
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: so he went to Chicago, got a job, was a longshoreman.

691
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: In August nine, his story got back to Cleveland and

692
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: the same detective we talked about previously, Peter Murillo, I

693
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: want to Chicago to bring him back. So Mrillo and

694
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: another policeman drove Frownick up Broadway to try to find

695
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: to say if the good place, the place that he

696
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 1: had gone to, and what his doctor's office was. When

697
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: they got to the area between East fiftieth and East

698
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: East fifty fifth Street, he said, it's here, somewhere, so

699
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: he remembered that spot. So they got out of the

700
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: car and they walked up and down the street. But

701
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: he couldn't find He couldn't find the spot that he would. Yeah,

702
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: he couldn't find. It had been a few years, have

703
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 1: been four years actually, and and Nest interviewed him. Also,

704
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: Elliott Nest interviewed him, but they decided it didn't have

705
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: anything to do with the butch. But here's an interesting factory.

706
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,919
Speaker 1: This is this information is actually I got a lot

707
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: of this from a guy I had not personally from him.

708
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: But there's a guy named James Padel who has written

709
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 1: three books about the Butcher and and this appears. There

710
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: was an interview in the July fourteen issue of Cleveland

711
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: Magazine where he talks about this guy a little bit

712
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 1: so um. He said that he gives talks on this

713
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 1: stuff every now and again, on the Butcher. And at

714
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 1: one of these talks, a guy came up to him

715
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 1: after his Torso talk and showed him a photograph of

716
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: six doctors, one of whom was Dr Sweeney, the other

717
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 1: the other six. One of them was this guy's great uncle,

718
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 1: whose name was Edward Perturka. And the six doctors at

719
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: one point had a medical practice together on Broadway in Cleveland.

720
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: And I got a map right here, actually, let me

721
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 1: show you. So. It was at the corner of Broadway

722
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 1: and Pershing Avenue. Is let me show you the map

723
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: right here, all right, So Broadway it's a it's at

724
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:11,280
Speaker 1: Broadway and Persing Avenue now and and you can see

725
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: two to the right Avenue to the left forty ninth Avenue,

726
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 1: that's where the office was. So the guy that showed

727
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: him the picture of the six doctors also sent and

728
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 1: sent him a picture of the old office. The old

729
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,280
Speaker 1: office was a two story used to be a house.

730
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: It was, it had been converted the ground floor had

731
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 1: been converted into medical offices, and then adeli had been

732
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 1: built onto the front of it, which kind of blocked

733
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: the kind of blocked off the office a little bit.

734
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 1: And so it's quite possible if this guy was walking

735
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: down Broadway and then he saw the side of the

736
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: deli and didn't even see the front of the building

737
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 1: at all, you know what I'm saying. So if he

738
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: had approached it from one side, sees deli, thinks hey,

739
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: there's garbage cans in the back, there might be some

740
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: started food back there, he went back there, back behind

741
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: the deli is where the stai way to the second

742
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: floor of the house, which was still a residence was,

743
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: and where the doctor was probably staying at the time,

744
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: because he was actually at this time of strange from

745
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,760
Speaker 1: his wife because of his alcoholism and his erratic behavior.

746
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: So that adds a little bit of credibility to the

747
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 1: possibility that never one he was drugging, and that's one

748
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 1: way to deal with it. It's just to drug people

749
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: and then you can do whatever you want with them.

750
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 1: Another interesting point is that there was a funeral home

751
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: right next to this office, which apparently he had access to,

752
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: and in the basement they had you know that the

753
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 1: you know, the whole thing, the metal tables with the

754
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:33,839
Speaker 1: drains and everything for dealing with the blood and all

755
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 1: that stuffs stuff. So it's interesting, possible adds to the story,

756
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 1: but maybe doesn't. It doesn't well nobody And then like this,

757
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 1: this guy, James Biddell, who I said, it's written three

758
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 1: books about it and and has spent more time combined, like

759
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: a thousand times more than all of us put together,

760
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: investigating this. And he says he's not He says he's

761
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: pretty sure it's a doctor, but he can't stay for

762
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: nobody can. And it might it might be sold someday

763
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: if if somedays somebody stumbles across the doctor's diary or

764
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 1: something like that, you know, perhaps it'll be solved, but

765
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: maybe probably not. So I want to just quickly touch

766
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: on what Steve was talking about, and it's this theory

767
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: I guess it was like in the mid nineties that

768
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: this theory kind of surface, and it was that perhaps

769
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: it was just like there's no such thing as a

770
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 1: single butcher of Kingsbury Run, that it was a lot

771
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: of people. There were a lot of crazy people there

772
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 1: at the time, and it was time. It was a

773
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: crazy time, and that you know, it wouldn't be so

774
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: hard for like stories to start surfacing of like, oh,

775
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: this person got dismembered and somebody to like, who's crazy,

776
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 1: be like, oh that sounds like fun, yeah, or somebody

777
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 1: like you know, if if you really, if you want

778
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: to murder somebody, and that's a great time to do it,

779
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: because the problem with trying to commit murder is there's

780
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: usually a finger pointing right back. Actually, you've usually got

781
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 1: a big, solid motive this way. It's like, hey, people

782
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 1: are getting murdered left and right, I can go take

783
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,880
Speaker 1: care of this guy. Yeah, it's not it's not just copycat,

784
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: but you're using it as as a cover for your

785
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,359
Speaker 1: own act. Yeah. And the reason that this comes up

786
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: is because autopsy results were um inconclusive on a lot

787
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 1: of these murders. I forget, we're a year old when

788
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 1: they found well, yeah, that's a big issue right there. Right,

789
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: and the original corner Arthur Pierce. He may have been

790
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: a little inconsistent in his results as far as Steve

791
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: was kind of implying earlier, not saying like, well, these

792
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: were precise cuts and these were hacks on marks. You know,

793
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 1: he was just he just said, but their arms were

794
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: cut off. And again, you know it's hard because like

795
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 1: after a year, like, can you really tell, well, animals,

796
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: animals have been chewing on the corpse, bugs have been

797
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: chewing on the corps just stay in age. I could say, yes,

798
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,800
Speaker 1: we could probably figure that out. But at that time,

799
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, I don't think nobody had gone

800
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: into forensics into that detail to ever be able to say,

801
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: this is what tissue looks like a year later here

802
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: after a sharp n this is tissue a year later

803
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 1: after a no. I think after a year you say

804
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 1: the arm we cut off? The no, I don't know. Um.

805
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,280
Speaker 1: And the second factor in this is that his successor,

806
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:22,720
Speaker 1: who was Samuel Gerber, we kind of talked about him. Yeah,

807
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: so he gained a lot of popularity around the like

808
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: Sam Shepherd murder trial. He kind of had a reputation

809
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: for sensationalized theories. He was not he was not a

810
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,399
Speaker 1: super reputable source, which he was kind of the Golden Boy. Yeah,

811
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: which is weird for to say about a corner, you know.

812
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,240
Speaker 1: So him saying, oh, there were drugs in her system

813
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: for the last Jane Doe, like, who knows if he

814
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 1: was just like trying to continue to sensationalize this story

815
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:58,760
Speaker 1: or what. Um, But that is all we know? What

816
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: why why we that face? Steve? Like what I just said?

817
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: That's all. I mean, that's everything, right? Yeah? No, no, okay.

818
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: So there's there's one thing that we haven't really talked about,

819
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: and that is on at least the first three victims,

820
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 1: there was and you mentioned it briefly, something about the

821
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: chemical that they thought had been put onto the bottle,

822
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 1: that their skin was red and leathery. I didn't say

823
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: there were chemicals. Their skin was red and leathery, and

824
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 1: according to some of the autopsy reports, they thought that

825
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:39,760
Speaker 1: some kind of chemical had been put onto them. We're

826
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 1: going there, and I'm gonna keep this brief because I

827
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: know that this is just kind of a bit of

828
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 1: a footnote on the story. But I was trying to

829
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 1: figure out I spent some time trying to figure out

830
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: what the deal is as to what would do that? Uh,

831
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: and and trying to find what chemicals were in use

832
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 1: at the time. And that's that. It's just as we say,

833
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: a rabbit hole, as it was very hard to go

834
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 1: down and it it really didn't yield any results. But

835
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: I came back to I stepped back to more of

836
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: a simple idea, which is what what what do we know?

837
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 1: That's obvious that when you're hiding or getting rid of bodies,

838
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,839
Speaker 1: would you put on them? And that's kind of an

839
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:28,760
Speaker 1: alkali solution. No alkali because I supposedly makes them decompose

840
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 1: a lot faster. Alkali It breaks him down fast. Obviously,

841
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be great at getting rid of body.

842
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 1: But a book on how to get rid of bodies? Yeah,

843
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: there is, and believe it or not, of all places,

844
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: what I'm about to go through, part of it I

845
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 1: got from the c d c's website. Okay, that's that's

846
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 1: that's a little life that you click on. I says

847
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: how to get rid of dead bodies. Okay, Okay, there

848
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 1: there is there. There's three things that can happen to

849
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 1: skin when it comes into contact with a chemical. There

850
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: is what is called de fatting, which it literally means

851
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: just taking the fatty oils off the top of your skin. Okay.

852
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 1: There's irritants which irritate the skin, which make a rash,

853
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,799
Speaker 1: and then there's caustic things that would make you have

854
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 1: boils or you know, sores or something like that. Okay,

855
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 1: so those are the three levels. Well, alkali, if you

856
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: get a small dose, it's an irritant. So if you

857
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:30,720
Speaker 1: think of somebody who's ever worked with concrete, their hands

858
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,799
Speaker 1: are dry and crusty and kind of tough, and then

859
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: as they do it more they get worse than they

860
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 1: get kind of rash like. So that's the only thing

861
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: that I can think of is that, well, alkali is something,

862
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 1: as we said before, somebody would use to help break

863
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: down a body fast. So if they throw it on

864
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 1: the body and there's a big concentration of it, why

865
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: immediately just before or just immediately after death, it would

866
00:53:56,040 --> 00:54:00,359
Speaker 1: be absorbed by the skin, which would create the kind

867
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:05,439
Speaker 1: of red, weird, leathery texture situation. Now, it doesn't help

868
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: us figure anything out, but a lot of the accountings

869
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: go to that, and there was a chemical board on

870
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 1: the body. We don't know how much. We don't know

871
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: how big of an area. But it seems you know,

872
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:21,879
Speaker 1: when I say dispose of body and chemical, that's kind

873
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 1: of the direction that my mind went. And I think

874
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: it's it's it's kind of you know, I mean, Joe,

875
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 1: you and I were talking and Joe said, well, it

876
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 1: could be that where the body was dumped. We're talking

877
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 1: the thirties, we're not exactly ecologically frontly. Absolutely, that's true,

878
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 1: and let's be fair. I think that two of the

879
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 1: bodies that were found with that kind of skin thing,

880
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 1: we're found in very similar places. So it may just

881
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 1: be that, like the there was just crap sitting and

882
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 1: they fell into it and it was absorbed just through osmosis.

883
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 1: I mean, osmosis happens on all materials, whether alive or dead,

884
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: and that just had that reaction. So it could have

885
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 1: been as simple as that, or it could be as

886
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: a nefarious is where I was going, and yeah, well

887
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 1: I know when I get rid of the body, I

888
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: usually some smack, we're done. Yeah, So that's I mean,

889
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: that's all we know about this whole thing. You know,

890
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 1: We've got those two like fairly solid theories about who

891
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:27,399
Speaker 1: might have done this, which bothers me because there's only

892
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 1: two of them. Two seems too easy, and I have

893
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 1: a favorite, I mean I was your favorite. I mean

894
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: the doctor obviously, Yeah, I think so. The signs are

895
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 1: too easy for me. Yeah, the doctor. Okay, I didn't

896
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 1: know what Joe brought up. I will admit the stuff

897
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: that you brought up, Joe, that you found in your research,

898
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 1: I hadn't seen. So that kind of corroborates a lot

899
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 1: of stuff about the doctor. But again, the way that

900
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,959
Speaker 1: the police went about their investigations, and we've just got

901
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 1: these two main subjects. What if who happens to have

902
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: accident he killed himself in while being held quote included, yes,

903
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 1: air quotes, thank you. Um, it just seems a little

904
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 1: too easy, and I'm not sold, especially if we go

905
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 1: with the swamp murders and there was the what was

906
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,919
Speaker 1: the other location? Newcastle? Newcastle? Yeah, I mean that that's

907
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 1: true though, I mean that you're having that whole thing

908
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,479
Speaker 1: going on up there. But yeah, so Sweetie, Sweetie wasn't

909
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 1: a traveling doctor Sweeney. A lot of those happened after

910
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: he was committed before well they were befores and after

911
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: so okay, well, that to me washes him out as

912
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:43,399
Speaker 1: a candidate. I think, I mean, I just like him. Yeah,

913
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: you just like the name because you like the play maybe, yeah, so,

914
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:52,720
Speaker 1: I guess. Um. If you were interested in more links

915
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 1: to this story, um, you can of course check them

916
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 1: out as always on our website, Thinking sideways podcast dot com.

917
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: You may be listening to us there. You are probably

918
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: listening to us on iTunes. If you are, feel free

919
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:10,720
Speaker 1: to leave us a comment and a rating. We love

920
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:14,839
Speaker 1: those things. That's how other people find us, that's how we,

921
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 1: you know, continue to gain listenership, which we just keep

922
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 1: getting fantastic love them. Do we have a Facebook page, Yeah,

923
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 1: we do. We have a Facebook page and a Facebook

924
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 1: group which you should like and join, um respectively. If

925
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 1: you forget to download the show, or you don't have

926
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 1: time to download show, you can always stream it on Stitcher,

927
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: and you can always send us an email, particularly, you know,

928
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 1: like if you are the Med Butcher or you know

929
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: who he is, or you're a victim of Med Butcher. God,

930
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 1: I hope none of those things. Please, I'm so sorry.

931
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: Email Yeah, I don't know the email addresses as always

932
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. And I think

933
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 1: with that we're done with this weird creepy thing until

934
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: next week. That is, it is October. You know, I

935
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 1: really regret that we're doing these creepy stories this month,

936
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 1: but okay, sorry guys. We'll talk to you next week. Yeah, Tulu,

937
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 1: and I remember keep your head. Yeah about you. Yeah,