WEBVTT - #414 Guest Host John Huffington with Elmer Daniels 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:07.480 January fifteenth, nineteen eighty was Martin Luther King Day. As 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:10.080 the young folks with the day all from school in Wilmington, 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:13.920 Delaware through a party. At about five pm, two white 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:16.720 fifteen year olds, a male and a female, left the 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:20.320 party and headed towards some train tracks. There are some 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:23.560 discrepancies between their accounts, but according to both of them, 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:26.720 a black man in tan pants and a green jacket 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:29.600 chased the young man away before raping the young woman. 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:32.840 The young man said that the assailant was a former 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:36.919 classmate named Elmer, and the young woman identified eighteen year 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:40.760 old Elmer Daniels from a photoor array. Then the search 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:43.400 of Elmer's home turned up a tampair of pants and 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.920 a green jacket in addition to the ID and the 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:50.400 items of clothing. An FBI agent testified a trial about 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:53.760 hairs found on Elmer's pants and the young woman's undergarments. 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:59.040 They constituted what he called a double match. But this 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:17.400 is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. I'm John Huffington, 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.720 former guest, and we'll have my episode linked in the bio. 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:23.640 I spent thirty two years in the Maryland Department of correction, 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:27.560 ten of those years were on death row. During that time, 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:31.520 an FBI whistleblower exposed a fellow agent for testifying beyond 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.679 the limits of science. In my case and many others, 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.560 one of which we will be covering today, I'm so 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:41.040 honored to be filling in for my dear friend Jason 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:44.440 flumm As we welcome Elmer Daniels. Can you introduce yourself 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:45.080 to the audience. 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.720 My name is Elmer Daniels, and I'm a twenty eighteen 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.920 exonery convicted in nineteen eighty for a rape that never happened. 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:55.000 And before we unpack all that, I just want to 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:58.600 introduce your attorneys also joining us, Emica Igway, Welcome to 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:01.640 the show. Thank you so Elmer. Before any of this 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:03.360 happened to you, I just kind of want to hear 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.040 a little bit about your life growing up in Wilmington, Delaware. 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:09.240 Okay. I came from a two parent household. Now, I 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:12.760 had my great grandparents, my grandparents, mom and dad, big family. 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.360 I wasn't a bad kid, and I knew right from wrong, 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:17.920 and I based all my decisions on not getting an 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:22.560 ass whoopings for real, I'm being honest, and that was 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:24.639 the sixties and seventies kid growing up. 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.400 But you did stray from that guiding principle at least 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:29.800 on one occasion. It did something well, you know, it 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:32.320 was kind of commonplace in the sixties and seventies, right, 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:33.280 joy riding. 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:36.360 Yeah, I went for a joey ride, all right. That 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:38.800 was the only thing that I actually was as a 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:41.240 minor convicted of. It was on my record, and it 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.440 was in Ellesmere. I was a young kid and bumped 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:46.800 into the van. The keys fell and my light went on, 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.320 Oh there's a van, you know, let's see how far 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:51.920 you can go in it before you get cart I 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:52.400 got caught. 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:54.440 Now, when you got caught for that, did you do 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:55.520 a juvie time? 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:57.919 Yeah? I went to Bridge House. I stayed at Bridge 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.320 House for ninety maybe ninety because you could just go 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:03.320 and then your parts come get you, you know. So 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:05.560 she let me bake for a while, you know, and 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.880 let me see how it was. And actually that that 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:09.800 was enough. 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:12.239 So a little tough love, you know, steered your way 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.400 from the petty crime. I mean, obviously joey riding is 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.119 certainly not a violent crime. But that incident is why 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.880 the police had your mugshot in January of nineteen eighty 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:23.920 when the alleged rape occurred. Emica, can you fill us 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:25.400 in a little bit on the details. 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.880 The underlying crime was an alleged rape of a fifteen 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:35.000 year old white female who left a party on January fifteenth, 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:38.360 nineteen eighty, with another fifteen year old white male. They 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:42.880 went to some nearby railroad tracks. When they get there, 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.640 their stories differ. According to the fifteen year old male, 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.560 he engaged in sexual intercourse with the fifteen year old 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.560 white female. The white female denies that she ever had 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:55.640 sexual intercourse with the male. Nonetheless, the female claims that 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.000 while they were talking on the railroad tracks, a black 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:02.040 male came up to them. The fifteen year old male 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.320 ran away, and after he ran away, the black mail 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.880 allegedly held her down and raped her for two and 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.520 a half minutes. The black mail allegedly had his hands 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:13.360 on her neck. 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.720 And both the alleged victim, who will refer to as GS, 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:20.440 and the young man who will call case. Both of 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.480 them said that the alleged asaund was wearing khaki pants 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:26.919 and a green jacket, and GS described the alleged sailing 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.159 as having a big news and nails that were bitten 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.440 down as far as they could go. So what happened next? 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.480 She goes back to the party and tells people that 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.320 she had been raped. The police are called and when 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.680 the police come, naturally they want to speak to the 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:44.760 fifteen year old male and questioned him on what occurred, 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:48.640 and he gives about four different accounts and the first 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.599 time he says some male named Jack Smith came up. 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.520 The police followed that lead find out that it's false. 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.960 After about three or four stories that are inconsistent and 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.120 contradictory and turn out to be false, the police turn 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:04.000 around and charged this fifteen year old Mail with hindering prosecution. 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:06.599 They also threatened to charge him with the actual rape 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:11.359 itself unless he tells them what really happened. And under 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:13.800 that durest, the fifteen year old Mail says, there was 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:16.600 some guy named Elmer. I don't know his last name, 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.000 but I was in the same eighth grade math class 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:21.440 with him. That's going to turn out to be significant 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.159 because the name of the middle school was called Bayered 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.599 Middle School. Elma had in fact attended by a middle school, 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.160 but back in nineteen seventy eight, when this fifteen year 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:32.000 old Mail was in middle school, Elma was in the 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.200 tenth grade at a nearby high school. There was a 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:37.800 three year age difference between him. He was fifteen, Alma 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.080 was eighteen. They won in the same eighth grade math 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:40.719 class together. 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:43.240 I'm curious, did you even know Casey? 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:46.159 Never met him before, never met the girl till I 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.000 walked into the courtroom. Wow, as the first time I 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:50.280 actually seen both of them. 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:53.360 So now they go looking for a kid named Elmer 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.960 that attended Bayern Middle School. But the three year difference 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.479 between Elmer and case should have been enough for the 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:02.839 police to see the case. He had lied again, this 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:05.560 time for the very obvious benefit of not being charged 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:09.120 in the rape himself. But instead they pulled Elmer's mugshot, 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:11.719 and at this point GS had already seen upwards of 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:15.040 three hundred mug shots, and who knows how suggestive this 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:19.359 identification process was. In addition, we know from study after 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:23.560 study the cross reshoal identifications are less accurate than guessing. 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:27.360 But nonetheless that's what we have here. And they got 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:28.680 an arrest warrant for Elmer. 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.640 Thirty five days into my eighteenth birthday, a knock on 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:36.160 my door six eighteen North Harston Street, City Wilmington. Our 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.040 brother opens the door. Police entered, said they were looking 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.080 for me because they were charging me with the crime 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:43.839 of rape. At that time, not knowing what that was, 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.480 I had asked a question, what is that? After being 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:49.600 explained what that was by my sister, I was like, 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.000 you know, I didn't know what to think, but I 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:53.799 did know I'm going to jail. 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:57.320 Sir Elmer, you weren't even there. Where were you when 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:57.919 this happened? 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.080 Yeah? I wasn't there. I was playing basketball at church 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.239 cross the street from my house. You had to sign 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:05.400 in and people that I was with their names were 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.400 on there, and all the childhood friends and neighborhood all 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:10.400 their names was on there. But there had a problem 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:13.040 with me because my name was on the bottom of 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.800 the list. But it's on the list. Where regards that? 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:19.120 Now? This church basketball court was well over a mile 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:20.400 from where the incident occurred. 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:23.440 Yes, but police said I could run from where I 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.720 lived to where the crime happened in two minutes, I 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.800 mean sixty seconds there went the crime is sixty seconds back. 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:32.440 And he said he drove it and he got there 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:36.680 in two minutes. So if I was running, there's no 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:38.360 way I'm gonna get there in two minutes. 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:40.960 And then do an assault That last summer was three minutes. 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.640 And come back. So we got a total of seven minutes. 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:46.240 So basically you were running a mile under a minute, 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:50.080 So that's been possible. Now, this was the pre DNA, 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:53.120 but a rape kit was performed and physical evidence had 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:56.200 been collected. So what can you tell us about that? 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:00.440 There was blood, there was seamen, and there was hair evidence. 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:03.760 They were able to match the blood type to Elmer. 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:07.120 They had semen DNA didn't exist, but there was nothing 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:09.440 they could use to match that to Elmer. 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.120 And I'm sure had there been a blood type president 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.560 in the semen that matched Elmer, they would have made 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.880 huge smoke about that. But Secret's status isn't even mentioned. 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:22.880 So we've got the impossible on foot round trip. The 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:26.840 blood type didn't match the three year age difference. As 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.840 for the hair evidence, there were hairs collected from Elmer's 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:32.960 pants as well as hair is collected from Gs's undergarments, 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:35.439 and we'll get to that in just a bit. But first, 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:37.880 when they tossed your house, they found items of clothing 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.440 khaki pants and a green jacket. This is what the 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:43.560 alleged sound was supposed to have been wearing. 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:47.439 They actually found the pants in a third bedroom closet. 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:49.600 There were a pair of khakis, but they were old. 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:51.760 You know how you put clothes away and you pack them. 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:54.000 They went through the house and they found those. They 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.960 found jacket in my brother's bedroom on the second floor, 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.600 which was his jacket. Had his name on it, but 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:01.360 they tried to say it belonged to me. 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:05.640 So there was a notebook that was inside the jacket. 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.800 Fingerprints were lifted from that notebook. There was an FBI 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:13.000 agent who testified that he could not exclude Elmer, but 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:16.000 he couldn't include him either, And when we got involved, 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:20.240 we had them retest those fingerprints, and those fingerprints were 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:23.960 negative for Elma's fingerprints. So that goes to show the 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.920 lack of evidence that that jacket belonged to Elmer, in 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.079 addition to having another name engraved on the inside, so they. 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:32.960 Were really just trying to fit a square peg into 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:33.600 a round hole. 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:37.319 From the very beginning, the police were eager to find someone. 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:42.200 There had been two previous rapes by alleged blackmails of 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:45.680 white women back in nineteen eighty and the police wanted 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:49.320 to find out if Elmer was a serial rapist, and 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:52.440 they actually tried to link him to the previous two rapes, 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:55.559 and that came out to be not true, so they 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:59.440 dropped that and proceeded to want to prosecute Elmer. We 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:03.160 believed send a message and to appease the community that 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:05.240 we can't hang them like we used to back in 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.680 the sixties, but we can send a message by giving 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.040 an eighteen year old mail a life sentence. 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:13.000 There was a no bail situation. 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:15.640 I'm assuming bail was actually five thousand dollars. 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:17.800 Wow, and did you post that bill? 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.720 No, I didn't. I wasn't in financial fortitude to post 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:21.040 a bail. 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:24.760 So while you were stuck in jail from January until 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:27.920 trial in May of nineteen eighty, I understand that the 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:30.600 Court of the pointed a psychologist to make a recommendation 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:34.000 on your mental state, and in interviewing you, he raised 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.760 a red flag, saying, among other things, that hey Gs 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:39.920 has said that her sailing had a big nose and 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:42.920 nails that were bitten down to the nub. That wasn't 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:43.520 the case with you. 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.000 I went in in my natural senseus self in state. 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:49.920 It was comfortable, and he and I had a conversation, 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.520 but at the same time he was observing the things 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:56.640 that they said were part of me that weren't, and 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.080 he made that ascertation in his notes. 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:03.280 Matt Quarter appointed psychologists actually took the time. He states 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:06.120 in this letter, I tried not to play detective, but 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:08.720 I have to write your honor to state that I 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:13.040 believe Elma Daniels is innocent. And we have that letter. 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:16.920 He c ced the district attorney and Elmer's public defender, 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.720 and he goes on to lists why he believes that 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:22.400 Elmer is in fact innocent. 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.439 Okay, so you have a public defender. How often did 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:26.920 you even talk to did you meet? 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.520 Well, I met defense attorney Edward Pankowski. By the time 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:32.280 I got to dry I had only seen him twice. 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:34.640 But the first thing that he offered me when I 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:37.000 met him was a deal. And I'm like, deal for 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.000 what you know? He said, well, you know, judging that 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:42.720 they got all the evidence that I see against you, 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:45.480 because he had ran all over the all the evidence 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:50.080 with me that he felt was making me guilty. The 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:53.480 first deal was five to fifteenth to life. That was 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:55.600 for second degree. I'm like, well, we're going to We're 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.439 gonna try right, they're gonna try. If they're gonna get me, 0:11:58.440 --> 0:11:59.920 they're gonna get me because I'm a go down fight. 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:02.360 So the jury was going to hear from Gs to 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.320 Casey as well as this puff of smoke from the 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.600 FBI fingerprint analysis about the notebook in the green jacket. 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:13.559 And then our favorite the FBI agent who also testified 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:17.640 in my case, special agent Michael P. Malone, and he's 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:20.480 going to testify about hair is allegedly found on Gs's 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:23.480 undergarmers and these khaki pants that have been packed away 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:25.480 in a third bedroom clause at Elmer's house. 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:30.240 I always say that I don't blame the jury for 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:35.480 convicting Elmer because the hair analysis would have had a 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:39.960 tremendous impact on anyone. They had this FBI agent who 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.320 supposedly had all the credentials as an expert and was 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.920 a prolific testifier on behalf of the FBI. He testified, 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:50.360 as you know, all across the country. He appears, and 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.760 he says in Elma's case that there was a double match. 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:55.800 What do we mean by a double match? He said 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.920 there was hair that was found on the pants when 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:04.480 Elmo was arrested that belonged to Caucasian individual, and there 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:08.080 was hair found on the underwear of the victim that 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:12.480 belonged to an African American individual. And he testified to 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:16.160 the jury that there was a microscopic match between the 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.600 hair and the victims underwear that belonged to Elmer, and 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.240 the hair that was found on Elma's pants was belonged 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:24.040 to the victim. And he said it was a double match, 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.520 that this is something he's never even come across. You 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:29.840 can imagine the impact that that would have had on 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.760 a jury. Back then there wasn't any DNA, but that 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:36.400 kind of testimony is equivalent to DNA identification. 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:40.600 Okay, I get the definition of double match, but guess 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:43.760 what if neither one of them is the right hair, 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:46.360 then you've matched nothing. You just have two hairs in 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:50.600 two different places or three different places that actually aren't 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.360 the same hairs? Am I right in just that basic assumption? 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.320 Absolutely? And that's one of the things when we fast 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:58.719 forward when we send the transcripts to the FBI, they 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.959 had to admit. The Special counsel from the US Department 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:04.760 of Justice wrote to the Attorney General of Delaware admitting 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:07.680 their agent testified, as they put it, beyond the means 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:10.760 of science aka also known as he lied. 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.679 And you know he used that phrase to elevate it 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.840 to some extreme like I've never hardy ever seen this, 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:20.280 or you know this is a double match, and you 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:23.560 get this catchphrase that, like you said, twelve people like 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.440 you and I are hearing this when you have an 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.800 FBI agent suit and tie Jagger Hoover. We're all taught 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:33.400 to believe in the infallibility of their work, because I 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:35.840 had a similar thing. Agent Michael Malone in my case 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.360 was to a ninety eight point nine percent certainty, but 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:42.200 we learned later that one he probably didn't even do 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:46.280 the test himself, and DNA conclusively proved that he was lying. 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:49.240 So I get what you're saying as far as that goes. 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:53.920 So everything stacked against Selmer. We've got these junk sciences 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:58.200 going on. Did your lawyer contact the people that played 0:14:58.240 --> 0:14:59.200 basketball with you. 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.200 The guy that ran the director he actually testified, he 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:06.080 signed in. I knew he was there, know all his friends, 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:07.600 even some of our friends testified. 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.520 But since these people knew you, obviously the prosecution just 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.360 shot holes in your alibi by attacking their credibility on 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:16.800 that angle. But what about the age discrepancy between you 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:19.800 and k C. I mean, obviously you guys were not 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:21.400 in the same year school. 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:25.160 The prosecutor presented a middle school teacher to say that 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:29.120 Elmer was in the eighth grade math class. We believed 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.800 that teacher did, in fact teach Elmer, but this year's 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:34.880 prior and Elma also, to make it more confused, Elma 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:37.440 also had brothers who had that same teacher. 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:37.840 And his sister. 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.240 Yes, we all had him for home room, all had him. 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:45.760 So but Elmer then takes a stand and tells a jury, no, 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:48.520 I was not in the same eighth grade math class 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:52.160 as Casey. The prosecution then calls us a rebuttal witness, 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:56.400 a detective who is a name defendant in the lawsuit 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:58.440 that we have going on now and he's still alive, 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.520 who says, Elmer, so it was in the same eighth 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:05.160 grade math class as CAC. So you can see how 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.000 the jury would say, well, if he's going to lie 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.960 to us about being the same eighth grade math class 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.760 as KC, KC testified to it, the teacher testified to it, 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:17.880 and this rebuttal witness came and testified to it, it 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:21.320 must be true. And where we follow the prosecutor is 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:25.120 just like we pulled the transcripts. He's an agent of 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.440 the state. The school districts are agents of the state. 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:31.760 He could have easily pulled those transcripts, but they had 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:34.040 a narrative and they were going to follow through that 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:36.400 narrative that Elma was in fact the rivers. 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:40.240 Yeah, that is definitely improper. Did you just take the 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:41.120 stand in this case? 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:42.600 She was one of the first witnesses. 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.720 What's your analysis of the cross examination? 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.880 Unfortunately, there was several things that he could have certainly 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:54.440 explored contradictions not just in her testimony, but the testimony 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:58.040 of KC. One of the big ones was Casey's claim 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:01.160 that he had sexual intercourse. That should have been explored. 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:02.880 There was some other evidence that we don't need to 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.080 get into that shows that she didn't in fact have 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.120 sexual intercourse, but not if that was explored. 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:09.680 I do want to ask Ember. It's one thing to have, 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:13.160 you know, fbi ages and folk up there and they're 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:17.000 describing evidence and talking about things. It's another thing when 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:21.200 it gets personal. How did you feel when you sat 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:23.119 there and listened to Gs's testimony. 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.200 I basically sitting there as an eighteen year old kid. 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:27.919 Is she's lying, literally, she's lying, And what could I 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:28.600 do about it? 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:29.080 Right? 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.720 I have people protecting her interests and nobody protected mind. 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:36.720 So I sit there, watch listen. I can't explode because 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:38.840 it makes it worse, so I had to sit there 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:42.720 and swallow it. But at the same time, you can't 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:44.760 understand why someone would do that. 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:48.520 So between GS identifying you and Special Agent Malone making 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:52.119 his double match, any of the other defense efforts were 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:53.320 doomed to fall short. 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:55.919 When they found me guilty a month later that they 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.320 sentenced me. I'll never forget it on my sister's birthday. 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:00.480 So they give me forty five years to life with 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:02.840 the possibility up role. But the thing about it is 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.800 they convicted me, sentenced me, offered me a deal in 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:11.320 the process before trial, after trial, gave me time, pulled 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:15.359 me back into court eighteen months later, offered me a deal. 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.080 Paul's there for a second. I gotta keep up with 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:19.280 you on that part of the story. 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:23.320 Eighteen months they come back with this deal. Now, common sense, 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.480 tell me when they did that, because they did it 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.399 before trial, during trial, and then you convict me and 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:31.359 give me the time, and then you're coming back to 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:33.679 offer me the deal, you know what I mean. But 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:35.919 then they blamed it on the fact that because I 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.399 had no real serious criminal history and due to the 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:43.320 lack of physical trauma to the victim, then they didn't 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:45.960 feel it was conducive to give me what you gave me, 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:48.719 And so all those flags went up. Something's wrong. And 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.800 that's what I just kept saying to myself, something's wrong. 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:53.640 Why would you come back and offer me a deal? 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:56.080 You knocked me in my head, said that's what I deserved. 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:59.560 Somebody in there knew something was wrong, but that somebody 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:13.840 couldn't do anymore than they were doing. When I went 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:17.359 into the penitentiary, it only held five hundred people, okay, 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:20.760 and you could scratch it at seven. Imagine seeing three 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.600 penitentiaries built, you know, and asking you do you want 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:25.600 to build or be a part? Now, I'm like, I'm 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:27.639 not building anything you're gonna put me in, you know. 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.359 I mean, I'm gonna be honest with you. Early into 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:32.719 being in calls, Rade, I wanted to fight you at 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.720 every cause, first I'm scared. Second, I'm not gonna let 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:38.800 you do anything to me, you know. And I learned 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.840 real earlier because of a guy that was familiar with 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:44.119 my family and knew. My father kind of pulled me 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:46.000 to the side and he let me know. He said, listen, 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:50.560 you're angry, but you know if you don't change, somebody's 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.000 gonna kill you, or you're gonna kill somebody because you're angry. 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:55.960 And he said, let me ask you something, and I 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.359 said what he said, had all the guys is in 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:01.320 here who did something to And that made sense to 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:04.000 me because they were there before I got there. And 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.639 so there's a code of ethic, there's inmate code of ethic, 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:09.840 and then there's the code of ethic for the officers 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.679 because they want to go home. So what you see, 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.440 you see, but you don't see it, and the penitentiary 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:18.879 all you have is your word. I found out that 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:22.399