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Speaker 1: January fifteenth, nineteen eighty was Martin Luther King Day. As

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Speaker 1: the young folks with the day all from school in Wilmington,

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Speaker 1: Delaware through a party. At about five pm, two white

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Speaker 1: fifteen year olds, a male and a female, left the

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Speaker 1: party and headed towards some train tracks. There are some

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Speaker 1: discrepancies between their accounts, but according to both of them,

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Speaker 1: a black man in tan pants and a green jacket

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Speaker 1: chased the young man away before raping the young woman.

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Speaker 1: The young man said that the assailant was a former

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Speaker 1: classmate named Elmer, and the young woman identified eighteen year

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Speaker 1: old Elmer Daniels from a photoor array. Then the search

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Speaker 1: of Elmer's home turned up a tampair of pants and

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Speaker 1: a green jacket in addition to the ID and the

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Speaker 1: items of clothing. An FBI agent testified a trial about

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Speaker 1: hairs found on Elmer's pants and the young woman's undergarments.

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Speaker 1: They constituted what he called a double match. But this

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Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. I'm John Huffington,

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Speaker 1: former guest, and we'll have my episode linked in the bio.

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Speaker 1: I spent thirty two years in the Maryland Department of correction,

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Speaker 1: ten of those years were on death row. During that time,

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Speaker 1: an FBI whistleblower exposed a fellow agent for testifying beyond

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Speaker 1: the limits of science. In my case and many others,

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Speaker 1: one of which we will be covering today, I'm so

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Speaker 1: honored to be filling in for my dear friend Jason

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Speaker 1: flumm As we welcome Elmer Daniels. Can you introduce yourself

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Speaker 1: to the audience.

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Speaker 2: My name is Elmer Daniels, and I'm a twenty eighteen

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Speaker 2: exonery convicted in nineteen eighty for a rape that never happened.

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Speaker 1: And before we unpack all that, I just want to

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Speaker 1: introduce your attorneys also joining us, Emica Igway, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the show. Thank you so Elmer. Before any of this

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Speaker 1: happened to you, I just kind of want to hear

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Speaker 1: a little bit about your life growing up in Wilmington, Delaware.

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Speaker 2: Okay. I came from a two parent household. Now, I

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Speaker 2: had my great grandparents, my grandparents, mom and dad, big family.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't a bad kid, and I knew right from wrong,

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Speaker 2: and I based all my decisions on not getting an

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Speaker 2: ass whoopings for real, I'm being honest, and that was

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Speaker 2: the sixties and seventies kid growing up.

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Speaker 1: But you did stray from that guiding principle at least

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Speaker 1: on one occasion. It did something well, you know, it

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Speaker 1: was kind of commonplace in the sixties and seventies, right,

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Speaker 1: joy riding.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I went for a joey ride, all right. That

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Speaker 2: was the only thing that I actually was as a

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Speaker 2: minor convicted of. It was on my record, and it

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Speaker 2: was in Ellesmere. I was a young kid and bumped

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Speaker 2: into the van. The keys fell and my light went on,

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Speaker 2: Oh there's a van, you know, let's see how far

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Speaker 2: you can go in it before you get cart I

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Speaker 2: got caught.

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Speaker 1: Now, when you got caught for that, did you do

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Speaker 1: a juvie time?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I went to Bridge House. I stayed at Bridge

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Speaker 2: House for ninety maybe ninety because you could just go

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Speaker 2: and then your parts come get you, you know. So

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Speaker 2: she let me bake for a while, you know, and

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Speaker 2: let me see how it was. And actually that that

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Speaker 2: was enough.

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Speaker 1: So a little tough love, you know, steered your way

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Speaker 1: from the petty crime. I mean, obviously joey riding is

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Speaker 1: certainly not a violent crime. But that incident is why

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Speaker 1: the police had your mugshot in January of nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: when the alleged rape occurred. Emica, can you fill us

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Speaker 1: in a little bit on the details.

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Speaker 3: The underlying crime was an alleged rape of a fifteen

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Speaker 3: year old white female who left a party on January fifteenth,

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty, with another fifteen year old white male. They

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Speaker 3: went to some nearby railroad tracks. When they get there,

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Speaker 3: their stories differ. According to the fifteen year old male,

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Speaker 3: he engaged in sexual intercourse with the fifteen year old

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Speaker 3: white female. The white female denies that she ever had

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Speaker 3: sexual intercourse with the male. Nonetheless, the female claims that

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Speaker 3: while they were talking on the railroad tracks, a black

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Speaker 3: male came up to them. The fifteen year old male

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Speaker 3: ran away, and after he ran away, the black mail

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Speaker 3: allegedly held her down and raped her for two and

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Speaker 3: a half minutes. The black mail allegedly had his hands

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Speaker 3: on her neck.

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Speaker 1: And both the alleged victim, who will refer to as GS,

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Speaker 1: and the young man who will call case. Both of

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Speaker 1: them said that the alleged asaund was wearing khaki pants

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Speaker 1: and a green jacket, and GS described the alleged sailing

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Speaker 1: as having a big news and nails that were bitten

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Speaker 1: down as far as they could go. So what happened next?

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Speaker 3: She goes back to the party and tells people that

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Speaker 3: she had been raped. The police are called and when

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Speaker 3: the police come, naturally they want to speak to the

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Speaker 3: fifteen year old male and questioned him on what occurred,

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Speaker 3: and he gives about four different accounts and the first

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Speaker 3: time he says some male named Jack Smith came up.

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Speaker 3: The police followed that lead find out that it's false.

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Speaker 3: After about three or four stories that are inconsistent and

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Speaker 3: contradictory and turn out to be false, the police turn

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Speaker 3: around and charged this fifteen year old Mail with hindering prosecution.

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Speaker 3: They also threatened to charge him with the actual rape

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Speaker 3: itself unless he tells them what really happened. And under

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Speaker 3: that durest, the fifteen year old Mail says, there was

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Speaker 3: some guy named Elmer. I don't know his last name,

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Speaker 3: but I was in the same eighth grade math class

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Speaker 3: with him. That's going to turn out to be significant

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Speaker 3: because the name of the middle school was called Bayered

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Speaker 3: Middle School. Elma had in fact attended by a middle school,

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Speaker 3: but back in nineteen seventy eight, when this fifteen year

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Speaker 3: old Mail was in middle school, Elma was in the

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Speaker 3: tenth grade at a nearby high school. There was a

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Speaker 3: three year age difference between him. He was fifteen, Alma

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Speaker 3: was eighteen. They won in the same eighth grade math

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Speaker 3: class together.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious, did you even know Casey?

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Speaker 2: Never met him before, never met the girl till I

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Speaker 2: walked into the courtroom. Wow, as the first time I

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Speaker 2: actually seen both of them.

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Speaker 1: So now they go looking for a kid named Elmer

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Speaker 1: that attended Bayern Middle School. But the three year difference

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Speaker 1: between Elmer and case should have been enough for the

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Speaker 1: police to see the case. He had lied again, this

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Speaker 1: time for the very obvious benefit of not being charged

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Speaker 1: in the rape himself. But instead they pulled Elmer's mugshot,

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Speaker 1: and at this point GS had already seen upwards of

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Speaker 1: three hundred mug shots, and who knows how suggestive this

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Speaker 1: identification process was. In addition, we know from study after

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Speaker 1: study the cross reshoal identifications are less accurate than guessing.

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Speaker 1: But nonetheless that's what we have here. And they got

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Speaker 1: an arrest warrant for Elmer.

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Speaker 2: Thirty five days into my eighteenth birthday, a knock on

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Speaker 2: my door six eighteen North Harston Street, City Wilmington. Our

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Speaker 2: brother opens the door. Police entered, said they were looking

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Speaker 2: for me because they were charging me with the crime

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Speaker 2: of rape. At that time, not knowing what that was,

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Speaker 2: I had asked a question, what is that? After being

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Speaker 2: explained what that was by my sister, I was like,

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Speaker 2: you know, I didn't know what to think, but I

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Speaker 2: did know I'm going to jail.

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Speaker 1: Sir Elmer, you weren't even there. Where were you when

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Speaker 1: this happened?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I wasn't there. I was playing basketball at church

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Speaker 2: cross the street from my house. You had to sign

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Speaker 2: in and people that I was with their names were

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Speaker 2: on there, and all the childhood friends and neighborhood all

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Speaker 2: their names was on there. But there had a problem

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Speaker 2: with me because my name was on the bottom of

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Speaker 2: the list. But it's on the list. Where regards that?

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Speaker 1: Now? This church basketball court was well over a mile

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Speaker 1: from where the incident occurred.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but police said I could run from where I

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Speaker 2: lived to where the crime happened in two minutes, I

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Speaker 2: mean sixty seconds there went the crime is sixty seconds back.

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Speaker 2: And he said he drove it and he got there

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Speaker 2: in two minutes. So if I was running, there's no

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Speaker 2: way I'm gonna get there in two minutes.

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Speaker 1: And then do an assault That last summer was three minutes.

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Speaker 2: And come back. So we got a total of seven minutes.

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Speaker 1: So basically you were running a mile under a minute,

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Speaker 1: So that's been possible. Now, this was the pre DNA,

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Speaker 1: but a rape kit was performed and physical evidence had

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Speaker 1: been collected. So what can you tell us about that?

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Speaker 3: There was blood, there was seamen, and there was hair evidence.

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Speaker 3: They were able to match the blood type to Elmer.

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Speaker 3: They had semen DNA didn't exist, but there was nothing

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Speaker 3: they could use to match that to Elmer.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure had there been a blood type president

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Speaker 1: in the semen that matched Elmer, they would have made

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Speaker 1: huge smoke about that. But Secret's status isn't even mentioned.

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Speaker 1: So we've got the impossible on foot round trip. The

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Speaker 1: blood type didn't match the three year age difference. As

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Speaker 1: for the hair evidence, there were hairs collected from Elmer's

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Speaker 1: pants as well as hair is collected from Gs's undergarments,

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Speaker 1: and we'll get to that in just a bit. But first,

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Speaker 1: when they tossed your house, they found items of clothing

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Speaker 1: khaki pants and a green jacket. This is what the

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Speaker 1: alleged sound was supposed to have been wearing.

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Speaker 2: They actually found the pants in a third bedroom closet.

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Speaker 2: There were a pair of khakis, but they were old.

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Speaker 2: You know how you put clothes away and you pack them.

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Speaker 2: They went through the house and they found those. They

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Speaker 2: found jacket in my brother's bedroom on the second floor,

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Speaker 2: which was his jacket. Had his name on it, but

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Speaker 2: they tried to say it belonged to me.

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Speaker 3: So there was a notebook that was inside the jacket.

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Speaker 3: Fingerprints were lifted from that notebook. There was an FBI

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Speaker 3: agent who testified that he could not exclude Elmer, but

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Speaker 3: he couldn't include him either, And when we got involved,

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Speaker 3: we had them retest those fingerprints, and those fingerprints were

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Speaker 3: negative for Elma's fingerprints. So that goes to show the

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Speaker 3: lack of evidence that that jacket belonged to Elmer, in

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Speaker 3: addition to having another name engraved on the inside, so they.

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Speaker 1: Were really just trying to fit a square peg into

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Speaker 1: a round hole.

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Speaker 3: From the very beginning, the police were eager to find someone.

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Speaker 3: There had been two previous rapes by alleged blackmails of

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Speaker 3: white women back in nineteen eighty and the police wanted

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Speaker 3: to find out if Elmer was a serial rapist, and

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Speaker 3: they actually tried to link him to the previous two rapes,

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Speaker 3: and that came out to be not true, so they

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Speaker 3: dropped that and proceeded to want to prosecute Elmer. We

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Speaker 3: believed send a message and to appease the community that

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Speaker 3: we can't hang them like we used to back in

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Speaker 3: the sixties, but we can send a message by giving

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Speaker 3: an eighteen year old mail a life sentence.

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Speaker 1: There was a no bail situation.

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming bail was actually five thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: Wow, and did you post that bill?

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Speaker 2: No, I didn't. I wasn't in financial fortitude to post

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Speaker 2: a bail.

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Speaker 1: So while you were stuck in jail from January until

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Speaker 1: trial in May of nineteen eighty, I understand that the

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Speaker 1: Court of the pointed a psychologist to make a recommendation

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Speaker 1: on your mental state, and in interviewing you, he raised

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Speaker 1: a red flag, saying, among other things, that hey Gs

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Speaker 1: has said that her sailing had a big nose and

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Speaker 1: nails that were bitten down to the nub. That wasn't

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Speaker 1: the case with you.

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Speaker 2: I went in in my natural senseus self in state.

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Speaker 2: It was comfortable, and he and I had a conversation,

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Speaker 2: but at the same time he was observing the things

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Speaker 2: that they said were part of me that weren't, and

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Speaker 2: he made that ascertation in his notes.

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Speaker 3: Matt Quarter appointed psychologists actually took the time. He states

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Speaker 3: in this letter, I tried not to play detective, but

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Speaker 3: I have to write your honor to state that I

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Speaker 3: believe Elma Daniels is innocent. And we have that letter.

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Speaker 3: He c ced the district attorney and Elmer's public defender,

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Speaker 3: and he goes on to lists why he believes that

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Speaker 3: Elmer is in fact innocent.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you have a public defender. How often did

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Speaker 1: you even talk to did you meet?

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Speaker 2: Well, I met defense attorney Edward Pankowski. By the time

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Speaker 2: I got to dry I had only seen him twice.

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Speaker 2: But the first thing that he offered me when I

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Speaker 2: met him was a deal. And I'm like, deal for

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Speaker 2: what you know? He said, well, you know, judging that

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Speaker 2: they got all the evidence that I see against you,

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Speaker 2: because he had ran all over the all the evidence

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Speaker 2: with me that he felt was making me guilty. The

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Speaker 2: first deal was five to fifteenth to life. That was

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Speaker 2: for second degree. I'm like, well, we're going to We're

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Speaker 2: gonna try right, they're gonna try. If they're gonna get me,

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Speaker 2: they're gonna get me because I'm a go down fight.

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Speaker 1: So the jury was going to hear from Gs to

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Speaker 1: Casey as well as this puff of smoke from the

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Speaker 1: FBI fingerprint analysis about the notebook in the green jacket.

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Speaker 1: And then our favorite the FBI agent who also testified

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Speaker 1: in my case, special agent Michael P. Malone, and he's

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Speaker 1: going to testify about hair is allegedly found on Gs's

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Speaker 1: undergarmers and these khaki pants that have been packed away

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Speaker 1: in a third bedroom clause at Elmer's house.

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Speaker 3: I always say that I don't blame the jury for

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Speaker 3: convicting Elmer because the hair analysis would have had a

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Speaker 3: tremendous impact on anyone. They had this FBI agent who

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Speaker 3: supposedly had all the credentials as an expert and was

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Speaker 3: a prolific testifier on behalf of the FBI. He testified,

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Speaker 3: as you know, all across the country. He appears, and

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Speaker 3: he says in Elma's case that there was a double match.

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Speaker 3: What do we mean by a double match? He said

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Speaker 3: there was hair that was found on the pants when

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Speaker 3: Elmo was arrested that belonged to Caucasian individual, and there

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Speaker 3: was hair found on the underwear of the victim that

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Speaker 3: belonged to an African American individual. And he testified to

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Speaker 3: the jury that there was a microscopic match between the

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Speaker 3: hair and the victims underwear that belonged to Elmer, and

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Speaker 3: the hair that was found on Elma's pants was belonged

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Speaker 3: to the victim. And he said it was a double match,

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Speaker 3: that this is something he's never even come across. You

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Speaker 3: can imagine the impact that that would have had on

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Speaker 3: a jury. Back then there wasn't any DNA, but that

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Speaker 3: kind of testimony is equivalent to DNA identification.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I get the definition of double match, but guess

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Speaker 1: what if neither one of them is the right hair,

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Speaker 1: then you've matched nothing. You just have two hairs in

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Speaker 1: two different places or three different places that actually aren't

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Speaker 1: the same hairs? Am I right in just that basic assumption?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely? And that's one of the things when we fast

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Speaker 3: forward when we send the transcripts to the FBI, they

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Speaker 3: had to admit. The Special counsel from the US Department

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Speaker 3: of Justice wrote to the Attorney General of Delaware admitting

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Speaker 3: their agent testified, as they put it, beyond the means

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Speaker 3: of science aka also known as he lied.

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Speaker 1: And you know he used that phrase to elevate it

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Speaker 1: to some extreme like I've never hardy ever seen this,

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Speaker 1: or you know this is a double match, and you

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Speaker 1: get this catchphrase that, like you said, twelve people like

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Speaker 1: you and I are hearing this when you have an

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Speaker 1: FBI agent suit and tie Jagger Hoover. We're all taught

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Speaker 1: to believe in the infallibility of their work, because I

286
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Speaker 1: had a similar thing. Agent Michael Malone in my case

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Speaker 1: was to a ninety eight point nine percent certainty, but

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Speaker 1: we learned later that one he probably didn't even do

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Speaker 1: the test himself, and DNA conclusively proved that he was lying.

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Speaker 1: So I get what you're saying as far as that goes.

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Speaker 1: So everything stacked against Selmer. We've got these junk sciences

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Speaker 1: going on. Did your lawyer contact the people that played

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Speaker 1: basketball with you.

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Speaker 2: The guy that ran the director he actually testified, he

295
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Speaker 2: signed in. I knew he was there, know all his friends,

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Speaker 2: even some of our friends testified.

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Speaker 1: But since these people knew you, obviously the prosecution just

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Speaker 1: shot holes in your alibi by attacking their credibility on

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Speaker 1: that angle. But what about the age discrepancy between you

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Speaker 1: and k C. I mean, obviously you guys were not

301
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Speaker 1: in the same year school.

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Speaker 3: The prosecutor presented a middle school teacher to say that

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Speaker 3: Elmer was in the eighth grade math class. We believed

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Speaker 3: that teacher did, in fact teach Elmer, but this year's

305
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Speaker 3: prior and Elma also, to make it more confused, Elma

306
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Speaker 3: also had brothers who had that same teacher.

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Speaker 2: And his sister.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we all had him for home room, all had him.

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Speaker 3: So but Elmer then takes a stand and tells a jury, no,

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Speaker 3: I was not in the same eighth grade math class

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Speaker 3: as Casey. The prosecution then calls us a rebuttal witness,

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Speaker 3: a detective who is a name defendant in the lawsuit

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Speaker 3: that we have going on now and he's still alive,

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Speaker 3: who says, Elmer, so it was in the same eighth

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Speaker 3: grade math class as CAC. So you can see how

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Speaker 3: the jury would say, well, if he's going to lie

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Speaker 3: to us about being the same eighth grade math class

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Speaker 3: as KC, KC testified to it, the teacher testified to it,

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Speaker 3: and this rebuttal witness came and testified to it, it

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Speaker 3: must be true. And where we follow the prosecutor is

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Speaker 3: just like we pulled the transcripts. He's an agent of

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Speaker 3: the state. The school districts are agents of the state.

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Speaker 3: He could have easily pulled those transcripts, but they had

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Speaker 3: a narrative and they were going to follow through that

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Speaker 3: narrative that Elma was in fact the rivers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is definitely improper. Did you just take the

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Speaker 1: stand in this case?

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Speaker 3: She was one of the first witnesses.

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Speaker 1: What's your analysis of the cross examination?

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, there was several things that he could have certainly

331
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Speaker 3: explored contradictions not just in her testimony, but the testimony

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Speaker 3: of KC. One of the big ones was Casey's claim

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Speaker 3: that he had sexual intercourse. That should have been explored.

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Speaker 3: There was some other evidence that we don't need to

335
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Speaker 3: get into that shows that she didn't in fact have

336
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Speaker 3: sexual intercourse, but not if that was explored.

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Speaker 1: I do want to ask Ember. It's one thing to have,

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Speaker 1: you know, fbi ages and folk up there and they're

339
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Speaker 1: describing evidence and talking about things. It's another thing when

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Speaker 1: it gets personal. How did you feel when you sat

341
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Speaker 1: there and listened to Gs's testimony.

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Speaker 2: I basically sitting there as an eighteen year old kid.

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Speaker 2: Is she's lying, literally, she's lying, And what could I

344
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Speaker 2: do about it?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: I have people protecting her interests and nobody protected mind.

347
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Speaker 2: So I sit there, watch listen. I can't explode because

348
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Speaker 2: it makes it worse, so I had to sit there

349
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Speaker 2: and swallow it. But at the same time, you can't

350
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Speaker 2: understand why someone would do that.

351
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Speaker 1: So between GS identifying you and Special Agent Malone making

352
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Speaker 1: his double match, any of the other defense efforts were

353
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Speaker 1: doomed to fall short.

354
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Speaker 2: When they found me guilty a month later that they

355
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Speaker 2: sentenced me. I'll never forget it on my sister's birthday.

356
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Speaker 2: So they give me forty five years to life with

357
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Speaker 2: the possibility up role. But the thing about it is

358
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Speaker 2: they convicted me, sentenced me, offered me a deal in

359
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:11,320
Speaker 2: the process before trial, after trial, gave me time, pulled

360
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,359
Speaker 2: me back into court eighteen months later, offered me a deal.

361
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Speaker 1: Paul's there for a second. I gotta keep up with

362
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Speaker 1: you on that part of the story.

363
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Speaker 2: Eighteen months they come back with this deal. Now, common sense,

364
00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,480
Speaker 2: tell me when they did that, because they did it

365
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,399
Speaker 2: before trial, during trial, and then you convict me and

366
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Speaker 2: give me the time, and then you're coming back to

367
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,679
Speaker 2: offer me the deal, you know what I mean. But

368
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:35,919
Speaker 2: then they blamed it on the fact that because I

369
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,399
Speaker 2: had no real serious criminal history and due to the

370
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,320
Speaker 2: lack of physical trauma to the victim, then they didn't

371
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,960
Speaker 2: feel it was conducive to give me what you gave me,

372
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Speaker 2: And so all those flags went up. Something's wrong. And

373
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Speaker 2: that's what I just kept saying to myself, something's wrong.

374
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Speaker 2: Why would you come back and offer me a deal?

375
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Speaker 2: You knocked me in my head, said that's what I deserved.

376
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Speaker 2: Somebody in there knew something was wrong, but that somebody

377
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:13,840
Speaker 2: couldn't do anymore than they were doing. When I went

378
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,359
Speaker 2: into the penitentiary, it only held five hundred people, okay,

379
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,760
Speaker 2: and you could scratch it at seven. Imagine seeing three

380
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,600
Speaker 2: penitentiaries built, you know, and asking you do you want

381
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,600
Speaker 2: to build or be a part? Now, I'm like, I'm

382
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,639
Speaker 2: not building anything you're gonna put me in, you know.

383
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,359
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm gonna be honest with you. Early into

384
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:32,719
Speaker 2: being in calls, Rade, I wanted to fight you at

385
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,720
Speaker 2: every cause, first I'm scared. Second, I'm not gonna let

386
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 2: you do anything to me, you know. And I learned

387
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,840
Speaker 2: real earlier because of a guy that was familiar with

388
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,119
Speaker 2: my family and knew. My father kind of pulled me

389
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,000
Speaker 2: to the side and he let me know. He said, listen,

390
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 2: you're angry, but you know if you don't change, somebody's

391
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 2: gonna kill you, or you're gonna kill somebody because you're angry.

392
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:55,960
Speaker 2: And he said, let me ask you something, and I

393
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,359
Speaker 2: said what he said, had all the guys is in

394
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,320
Speaker 2: here who did something to And that made sense to

395
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,000
Speaker 2: me because they were there before I got there. And

396
00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,639
Speaker 2: so there's a code of ethic, there's inmate code of ethic,

397
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 2: and then there's the code of ethic for the officers

398
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,679
Speaker 2: because they want to go home. So what you see,

399
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,440
Speaker 2: you see, but you don't see it, and the penitentiary

400
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,879
Speaker 2: all you have is your word. I found out that

401
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,399
Speaker 2: over the course of time, the most important quality that

402
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,199
Speaker 2: we have as a human being, to be able to

403
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,359
Speaker 2: communicate with people, becomes stagnated. We're around the same people

404
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,399
Speaker 2: every day. We do the same thing twenty three twenty

405
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 2: four hours a day and didn't turn around repeat it tomorrow.

406
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 2: It's just like getting up going to work. I guess

407
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 2: that's why I like going to work. It's a process.

408
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 2: But for me to see all those things, and I'm

409
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,480
Speaker 2: not gonna get into all the violent parts of that

410
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,200
Speaker 2: because I don't need that to steer my emotions, because

411
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 2: it does. But I never not thought that I wasn't

412
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,400
Speaker 2: gonna see the other side of the face. That never

413
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 2: entertained my mind. But I knew I was gonna be

414
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,160
Speaker 2: here for a while. My whole mindset was that since

415
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,160
Speaker 2: I'm gonna be here, I might as well go ahead

416
00:20:58,160 --> 00:20:59,680
Speaker 2: and do what I gotta do. I got my high

417
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,919
Speaker 2: school diploma, started dabbling in everything else that I could

418
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 2: closed myself in that eight by ten, and I started

419
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 2: opening up those books called law and rules and codes

420
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 2: of ethic, and I started finding out what specific words meant.

421
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,960
Speaker 2: Not even know what layman terms meant until I got

422
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 2: back into the courtroom and I used the terminology y'ah.

423
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,359
Speaker 2: And I don't know where he's speaking. He's speaking lingal language.

424
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 2: I need to know what he's saying. And that's when

425
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 2: I learned to have a judge have them explained to

426
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 2: you so you can understand.

427
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 1: So you set yourself on the positive path and got

428
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 1: involved in your own legal fight. But what happened in

429
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:35,680
Speaker 1: his initial appeal.

430
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,919
Speaker 3: So after he was convicted, he had an ineffective assistance claim.

431
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,800
Speaker 3: They appointed him attorney there, but they appointed him another

432
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 3: attorney out of the Public Defender's office. So that's yeah,

433
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 3: of course it's a conflict of interesting like a private

434
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 3: firm or another associate, you know, going after you know,

435
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 3: another attorney. You know, that's that's what happened. But anyway,

436
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 3: after that was quickly shot down by the judge Elmer,

437
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:02,920
Speaker 3: who you know at the time had a tenth grade

438
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 3: education and had a life sentence. Even though he requested

439
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,160
Speaker 3: to have a pellate council, he was denied a pellt

440
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 3: council and he was forced to fight this case on

441
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 3: his own pro se for the next thirty six years.

442
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 3: You know, Elma's official sentence was thirty years to life.

443
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,679
Speaker 3: After he hit thirty years, he petitioned for parole. He

444
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 3: kept getting denied.

445
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 2: They want you to admit your crime, and that when

446
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 2: you do that, you can't take it back. And so

447
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,680
Speaker 2: that was my biggest issue going through all this is

448
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 2: I wanted something that was rightfully mine, but would I

449
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 2: sell my soul get it back?

450
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,679
Speaker 3: Finally, after thirty five thirty six years, there was a

451
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 3: sympathetic African American female on the parole board who seemed

452
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 3: to really listen to what Elmer was presented to show

453
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 3: in fact, he was innocent, and we believe she advocated

454
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 3: for him to be released on parole.

455
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,879
Speaker 2: I was parole November twenty fifteen and had met a

456
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 2: Mecca on January twenty sixth, twenty sixteen. I had an

457
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 2: expungement some of that up on the church on Fifth

458
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 2: and Clayton Street. If you were convicted of a crime,

459
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 2: and your crime is like five years old or older,

460
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 2: you can have those things removed from your record because

461
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 2: that is one of the things that is hindering you

462
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 2: from being gainfully employed. And so he got up and

463
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 2: spoke my life into existence. Everything that came out of

464
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 2: his mouth was literally me. He said, just imagine for

465
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 2: a moment that you are a young man and you

466
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 2: go to prison, you're eighteen nineteen years old, and you

467
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 2: come out as a fifty six, fifty seven, fifty eight

468
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 2: year old man. I'm somewhere around there at fifty four

469
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 2: or somewhere like that, and I'm shaking my head. And

470
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 2: he said, then, you know, after you come out, your

471
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 2: life is basically over. Now you got to get it

472
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,120
Speaker 2: back together. But you don't know what to do, because

473
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 2: the one thing that's hindering you is what you actually

474
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 2: went to prison for. And so I still didn't wait

475
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 2: to talk with him. And when I got the opportunity

476
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 2: to say what I need to say, my first question

477
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: to him was, you know, you smoke my life just

478
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 2: now up here, and I just did thirty five years

479
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 2: in peditentiary, and I have evidence that proved I've never

480
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 2: committed a crime at all. I have it right here

481
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 2: in my hands. And I remember the young lady coming

482
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 2: to tell him, mister Mecha, your seats ready, and people

483
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 2: were in line waiting on you, and he said, come on,

484
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 2: and so I went from the end of his line

485
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 2: to the front of his line, got his last card,

486
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 2: and all he said was, Okay, I'm gonna help you

487
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 2: of cost you nothing. And we've been here ever since.

488
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 3: You know, Elma was convicted in May of nineteen eighty

489
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 3: and I was born in August of nineteen eighty. So

490
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,719
Speaker 3: I feel one of my life missions, reason I'm here

491
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 3: on earth was to cross paths with Elmer and help

492
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 3: write the injustice that was done to him.

493
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, you know, instead of being able to just

494
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 1: focus solely on clearing his name. Your efforts were split

495
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 1: because Elmer got sent back to prisoner on a parole violation.

496
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 3: When he was released, he was given two conditions. Number

497
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 3: one he had to obtain and maintain employment, and number

498
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 3: two was because he was a convicted sex offender, he

499
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 3: had to take certain classes in order to be rehabilitated. So,

500
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 3: on the first condition, Elmer obtains employment at a local

501
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 3: barbecue restaurant, and three weeks into working there, that restaurant

502
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 3: gets a call from the state police stating that Elmer

503
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 3: is a convicted sex offender and they were coming out

504
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 3: the next day to put posters in the restaurant to

505
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 3: notify patrons that Elmer was a convicted sex offender. So

506
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 3: you can imagine what happens next. The next day, Elma

507
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 3: is brought in and it's told unfortunately he has to

508
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 3: be let go. So despite the fact that they cause

509
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 3: Elmer to lose his employment, that was cited as the

510
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 3: first violation. The second condition was to take these classes,

511
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 3: which Elma takes all the classes, and upon completing all

512
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 3: the classes, he said, in order to get a certificate

513
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 3: of completion, he had to admit guilt.

514
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 2: And my whole thing was I'm willing to participate. But

515
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 2: if you ask me if I did it, I'm gonna

516
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 2: say no. You're repunishing me. That's because I'm simply saying no.

517
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: But you're not listening to why I'm saying no.

518
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 3: He has a constitutional right to maintain his innocence, but

519
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 3: he was told we're going to find that it's a

520
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 3: second violation. So after tasting freedom for eight months, after

521
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 3: being locked up continuously for thirty six years, he was

522
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 3: sent back to prison with a clear message that unless

523
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 3: you're willing to admit gil, you're not going to see

524
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 3: the light of day again.

525
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 1: So Emmical uncovered for you basically the same thing that

526
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: happened in my case. And if it's all right with you,

527
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: I just want to do a little bit of a

528
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 1: rundown of that history right now and make sure you

529
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: know everything that was going on at that time. Bad

530
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: So Agent Michael Malone, the FBI, who was their premier

531
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: hair microscopic examiner, who also became the center in the

532
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: hub of an international scandal that basically took the FBI

533
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 1: lab down where they don't do microscope hair examinations anymore.

534
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: But this actually started in August of nineteen eighty nine,

535
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 1: there was the guy that ran the metallurgical lab, was

536
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: named William Tobin, and he raised concerns about Agent Michael

537
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: Malone's testimony in a different case because he knew he

538
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: was lying, and he brought it up then. And then

539
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: fast forward a little bit, there was the Oklahoma City

540
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: bombing case. I'm sure you've heard about that. After that case,

541
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: a whistle blur came out of the FBI lab, doctor

542
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: Frederick Whitehurst, and he wrote letters. He made a lot

543
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: of allegations. Basically, he was saying that the FBI Lab

544
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: is being coerced into always presenting evidence favorable to the state.

545
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: They were trying to tell him how to do it.

546
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 1: They weren't following best practices, and he raised a lot

547
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: of issues about agent Michael Malone. Well Inspector General's Office,

548
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: which is above the FBI, launched a big investigation and

549
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety seven they issued a report and they

550
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: named the agent Michael Malone and said that he consistently

551
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 1: misrepresents evidence and testifies outside of his area of expertise.

552
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: I think, as Emmica said earlier, Layman terms it sounds

553
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: like you just called him a liar. So I have

554
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: a copy of that report. I know about it, but

555
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: I can't do anything with it. It's not enough to

556
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 1: go up against the FBI agent and say he lied

557
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: in my case. You know, it just wasn't enough. Now

558
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 1: what nobody knew. Right after that report came out, the

559
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 1: FBI themselves launched a new investigation and they brought an

560
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: outside forensic scientist to look at every case that maloone

561
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: had touched. Mine was in that mix. I'm sure yours was,

562
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: but they never made it public. So the FBI they

563
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: sent that to my prosecutor with a letter saying, hey,

564
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with the Humpington case, and my prosecutor

565
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: covered that up for the next fourteen years. I would

566
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: not have known about it if it wasn't for Spencer

567
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: Shoe at the Washington Post in twenty fifteen. Spencer wrote

568
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: the article that exposed it was the whole scandal that

569
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: was going on with the FBI lab. At that point,

570
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: they start scrambling. They know that report was coming out

571
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 1: in my case. They ended up DNA testing the hair

572
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: and they were not my hairs. And that's how I

573
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: want a rid of actual innocence, but not to get

574
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: off into that I'm just saying this started in nineteen

575
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,959
Speaker 1: eighty nine. Really coalesceding formulated in nineteen ninety seven to

576
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: ninety nine, and you weren't contacted. They didn't tell you.

577
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: It wasn't until I think twenty fifteen, after the article

578
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: came out, where the Innocence Project got involved with the

579
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: DOJ Department of Justice, and at that point they started

580
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: making some notifications to some defense lawyers. But you and

581
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: I both it cost us probably an extra fifteen years

582
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: in prison because they were withholding this information from us.

583
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 2: No that first I heard, I would.

584
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: Have turned to Mecca, who I'm sure knows pretty much everything.

585
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: I just said, you're coming on board. It's twenty fifteen,

586
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: the articles come out. You've got not only ha their

587
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: evidence is questionable, but you have the agent in question,

588
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: the guy that is at the heart of the whole storm,

589
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: Michael P. Malone.

590
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 3: So we saw, you know, the Inspector General's report, all

591
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 3: the documentation on what was going on. So we knew

592
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 3: we had a serious issue. So we sent the trial

593
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 3: transcripts to the FBI. They pointed a special counsel who

594
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 3: was looking at this case, and he wrote a letter

595
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 3: to the Attorney General of Delaware stated, as we said earlier,

596
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 3: that the agent had testified beyond the means of science

597
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 3: in Elma's case, and that was cited along with what

598
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 3: we talked about earlier with the transcripts showing Elma was

599
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 3: not in the same eighth grade math class as kc.

600
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: Not to mention all the other reasons that should have

601
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: kept them from pursuing Elmer at all. But now, unfortunately

602
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: the biological evidence in this case had been destroyed, so

603
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: it was never going to be a slam dunk on

604
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: the exoneration through DNA testing, But how did Delaware react

605
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: to the evidence that you had a messed.

606
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 3: So the Attorney General's office too for Nale to not

607
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 3: release Elmer and to give him alternate solutions. And this

608
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 3: is a consistent theme that I've seen in a number

609
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 3: of wrongful conviction cases. Even if they're going to let

610
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 3: you go, the next thing they do is try to

611
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: mitigate or totally eliminate any potential civil liability that were

612
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 3: resulting you getting compensated. And one of the ways they

613
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 3: do that is never totally exonerate you. They offered him

614
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 3: a commutation, which is you're guilty, but we're just going

615
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 3: to cut short your sentence. So I want your audience

616
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 3: to think about this. If you're guilty, you're going to

617
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 3: jump at that. But Elma was willing to spend the

618
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 3: rest of his life in jail in order not to

619
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 3: admit to a crime that he knew he didn't commit,

620
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 3: and so he turned that down. And so only after

621
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 3: we backed them in the corner and they had no

622
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 3: choice did they finally say, Okay, we'll agree to overturn

623
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 3: the indictment, remove the charges, but we're still not going

624
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 3: to say you're completely innocent. And if you're going to

625
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 3: get compensated, you're going to have to fight tooth and

626
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 3: nel again to get compensated, because Stellaware is one off

627
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 3: I think twelve states has left that doesn't have any

628
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 3: compensation for people who have been roughly convicted and incarcerated.

629
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: Well, we'll get the compensation in a minute, but first,

630
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: I really just want to acknowledge what you were willing

631
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: to do with what you had on the line. I'm

632
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: just happy for you that you were able to force

633
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: their hand and win your freedom. What was that day?

634
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: Like?

635
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: I mean, how'd you feel?

636
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: They ask me how I feel about it? When he

637
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: told me, he said that too, how you feel? And

638
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: my response was, I don't know. Just this day came

639
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: and it's here. You know, you thought you would react

640
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 2: one way in your mind because it ain't hadn't happened,

641
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 2: You're going to do all these things. But when he

642
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 2: literally told me and asked me how I felt, I

643
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 2: just simply said, I don't.

644
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: Know that I can relate to trust feeling that.

645
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I got a whole lot of aren't you happy?

646
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,239
Speaker 2: Was that? Yeah? I am, but I don't grab that

647
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: they took celibratory away from me. It's just another day.

648
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: It's another Christmas. I noticed significance. It is just another day.

649
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: It's very eerie to have this conversation and you express

650
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: the exact same sentiment I did, because I've never talked

651
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: about that on my release date to anybody, and you

652
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: just said that. I was like, he's nailing it. You're

653
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: saying exactly. I felt. Everybody's looking for your your feelings

654
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: and you don't have them.

655
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: Right, You don't have them, and because you had become

656
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: immune to it, people think that something's wrong.

657
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you know inside and I think you

658
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: could probably relate like I didn't celebrate holidays, birthdays, any

659
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: of that, and when I came home, I still don't.

660
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: I really don't do much for holidays or birthdays. What

661
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: I started doing was celebrating what I call my freedom

662
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: day to day. I came home July twenty second, and

663
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: I was doing it for a number of years. But

664
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: when I came home, I wasn't fully exonerated. I had

665
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: to take an out for pleague that carried on for

666
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: ten years. It took me ten years after being home.

667
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: I just got mine straight this year. So this year

668
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: is the first year I've ever been a whole. But

669
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: I had made a statement to a friend of mine

670
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: last year, I said, I'm never I'm not going to

671
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: celebrate my freedom Day anymore because all I did was

672
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: trade one prison cell for a bigger one. I still

673
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 1: have the stigma. I still am not fully clear. And

674
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 1: then this year I was. I was fully cleared, and

675
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: I actually got to spend it with you know, our

676
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: mutual friend here, Jason Flum, and celebrated the way it

677
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 1: should be celebrated as an honestly free person. And that

678
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: does mean something. And I know it's important day to you,

679
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: and your battle's not over there you never got compensated.

680
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 2: No, no, no, So right now, December thirteenth of me

681
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: five years, you know, and December twelfth is my birthday,

682
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 2: So December, I say, I'll celebrate two birthdays. So I'm

683
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: like you, I'm waiting to get to that point where

684
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 2: I don't want to celebrate that night. But it keeps

685
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 2: me humble. It keeps me conscious of the possibility of

686
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 2: it can happen to you again, you know, So I'm

687
00:34:59,160 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 2: conscious of that.

688
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 1: We at least you have Emica by your side. So,

689
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 1: like you said, your freedom day is December the thirteenth,

690
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. They removed the charges but didn't recognize your

691
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: innocence to mitigate their civil liability. So are you suing.

692
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, we sued the FBI, which is United States government,

693
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 3: and we sued the city of Wilmington and that police department.

694
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 3: The United States was dismissed from the case after they

695
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 3: filed emotion claiming immunity, and the federal judge, to his credit,

696
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 3: even though he said, you know, I have to follow

697
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 3: the law on immunity, he made the attorneys for the

698
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 3: United States apologize on the record to Elmer. But nevertheless,

699
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 3: despite the fact that they recognized it was a tragedy.

700
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 3: They were not willing to compensate him even a dime.

701
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: And neither his delaware. Now I know that no amount

702
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: of money could ever make up for what they took

703
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 1: from you, but the very least it could help you

704
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 1: live out the rest of your life, which you still

705
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: get to do thanks to Amica.

706
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 2: In the beginning of all this, Like I said to

707
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 2: Mecca when I met his wife, Mary Jane, I told

708
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 2: him there's not an ocean wide or deep enough for

709
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 2: me to even begin to tell him what he has

710
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: really done for me. And I never cried over this.

711
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 2: But it's been five years. Some of it's been hard,

712
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: it's really been hard. But for me, I'm just finding

713
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 2: a way to stand up, just stand there and walk.

714
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 2: And I know how I'm doing it, but I'm doing it.

715
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 2: And if I could get a couple of men together

716
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 2: and I can help them straighten out their life, I'll

717
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: go forward in a heartbeat, because they need people like

718
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 2: us to really give them insight on what you're facing,

719
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 2: what you're going to be dealing with. If I help one,

720
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: I did something. If I helped many them, I'm doing

721
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 2: a whole lot of something someone opened the door for

722
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 2: me to come back through. It would be real unfair

723
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,720
Speaker 2: for me not to try to pay that forward.

724
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: You know, I feel that same obligation because I had

725
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: a great law firm that got involved in my case,

726
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: rops In Gray, and they got me out. And the

727
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: only way to repay any of these folk is to

728
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: live the best life we can live and to pay

729
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 1: it forward. Like you just said, I knew what you're saying.

730
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: There's a weight on our shoulders right now to pay

731
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,879
Speaker 1: that forward so that they feel good about what they did.

732
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: When they point to you, Emmica points to you and

733
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: talks about amories like look what Elmor's out here doing.

734
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,439
Speaker 1: He's taking care of all this business, and that's gonna

735
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: make it. That's gonna make it all worth it. And

736
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 1: people believe in you and people support you for sure.

737
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I hadn't. I hadn't had a chance to

738
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 2: look at that reflection you just gave me that. I'm

739
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 2: sitting here and I did all this. I call it

740
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 2: crap because it's really the media, but I'm doing.

741
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: It because it does mean something. You know you're doing

742
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: the right thing, just like you knew you were doing

743
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: the right thing, fighting for your life, never giving up,

744
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: never surrounding your integrity, your name, your character, your humanists.

745
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: You know you hung onto that and you're here today

746
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: to give back and you're gonna find your way and

747
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: that's how it's gonna work. But what can our audience

748
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: do to help? I know you got to go fund

749
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: me and they can certainly help you out, and we're

750
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: gonna make sure we put a link for your GoFundMe

751
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: at the end of this podcast. But overall, either Elmer

752
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 1: or Emica, what can we do as a community here

753
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 1: where do we need to step up?

754
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 3: Well, one of the things is we need to get

755
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 3: a bill in Delaware to help those who have been

756
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 3: wrongfully convicted in incarcerated to get compensated. Elmer was instrumental

757
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 3: in getting a bill drafted. We got it through a

758
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 3: committee in the State House of Delaware, but the bill

759
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 3: was never put on the floor. So we want to

760
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 3: put pressure on Governor John Carney, the leaders of the

761
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,919
Speaker 3: Delaware Senate and the Delaware House of Representatives to say

762
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 3: Delaware should join the majority of states and having a

763
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 3: wrongful conviction and incarceration bill. So that's one of the

764
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 3: things that we can do to help make sure someone

765
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 3: like Elmer is treated fairly. You know, when Elmer was released,

766
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 3: he was just released with a shirt on his back,

767
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 3: in the middle of winter, given through three days worth

768
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 3: of diabetic medicine to the point where once that medication

769
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 3: ran nowt it went to a diabetic shock, and no

770
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,919
Speaker 3: resources have been provided for him, no one's checking on them.

771
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 3: So we want all of that to change. And Elmer

772
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 3: is an advocate for that, He's a warrior.

773
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 1: Well, I gotta say, folks, this has been an honor

774
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 1: for me to be a part of this conversation, to

775
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: meet both of you all. Elmer, you're my hero. I

776
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: want to thank one for conviction, and Jason and Connor

777
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: and everybody for letting me do this at this point

778
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 1: in time. We always like to give our guests that

779
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: last word. Whatever's on your heart, whatever's on your mind,

780
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: wrap it up for us, tell me what you think.

781
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 3: Thank you guys for giving us a platform to talk

782
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 3: about this important issues because unfortunately that many other Elmer's

783
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 3: out there across prisons across America, and by casting light

784
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 3: on the injustice that goes on, hopefully we can make

785
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,240
Speaker 3: a change. Hopefully we can make a change in laws

786
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 3: to say that there should never be a time bar

787
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 3: procedural time bar. If someone is innocent that has evidence

788
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 3: to show that the innocent, they shouldn't be precluded from

789
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 3: presenting that in court, which is what happens a lot

790
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 3: of times the merits never get heard. States should not

791
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 3: be allowed to destroy evidence, like helping in Elma's case,

792
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 3: where someone who's facing the life sentence has forensic evidence

793
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 3: destroyed so they cannot scientifically exonerate themselves. So by casting

794
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 3: a light on cases like Elmer and the other cases

795
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 3: that you're doing, you're making a difference and causing people

796
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 3: to really think that we can make a change in

797
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 3: our criminal justice system.

798
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 2: Okay, I think given a little bit more time, I

799
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 2: know that I'm gonna be Okay. It's nice to meet you, John.

800
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 2: This is the kind of thing that I aspired. You

801
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: want to always do, be able to talk about it.

802
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: I'm down because I know that I'm a voice. I

803
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 2: know that they can't change you know what has been done,

804
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 2: but I can change prevent it from happening to someone else.

805
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 2: So with that, I want no more victims. I don't

806
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 2: want no more guys going. If we can get one

807
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 2: thing right. That's the one thing we need to get right.

808
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 2: It's easy to put me there, but it makes it

809
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 2: hard for me to get myself out when you don't

810
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 2: give the whole truth. Give it, give it up truth.

811
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 2: If I'm judged by a jury of my peers, I've

812
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 2: never seen one of those people that I grew up

813
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,479
Speaker 2: in my neighborhood sitting at jury Pool. Those are jury

814
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 2: of my peers. I have to go back to that neighborhood.

815
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 2: So those are the people that I have to go

816
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 2: back to. Those are the people that have to deal

817
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 2: with me. But I didn't see those people because those

818
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 2: people knew who that young man was. That's what we

819
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 2: deal with.

820
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host,

821
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: John Huffington. I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm,

822
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: Jeff Kempler, Jeff Clypburne, and Kevin Watis, as well as

823
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 1: the production staff Connor Hall, Andy Chelsea and Kathleen Fink.

824
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: With research by Shelby Sols. The music in this production

825
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralf. Be

826
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 1: sure to follow Wrongful Conviction across all social media platforms

827
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can

828
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: find me on it, Instagram, and Twitter at Huffington John,

829
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: and you can find my book Innocent and I've Seen

830
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 1: Miscarriage of Justice at John Huffington dot com or wherever

831
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 1: books are sold. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava

832
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: for Good podcast and association with Signal Company Number one