1 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stephanomics, the podcast that brings the 2 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: global economy to you. What makes us happy? Well, not 3 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: living through a pandemic in January would be a start 4 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: in large parts of Europe. In the US, the midwinter 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: this year is feeling particularly bleak. But a lot of 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: the time we're wrong about what makes us happy, and 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: that's encouraged governments to get it wrong as well. They 8 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: focus on growing GDP, making the economy larger, but we 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: would all be genuinely better off if they focused on 10 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: what makes us happy instead. When the respected British economist 11 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: Richard Layard started saying things like this in the early 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 1: two thousands, it was considered rather odd. But these days 13 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: policymakers around the world take mental health seriously enough to 14 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: worry quite a lot about the psychological scarring that may 15 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: be caused by the pandemic and how that could worsen 16 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: the hit to theonomy. In a few minutes, you can 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: hear Layout himself explain how governments could really build that 18 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: better and build back happier. But first he our France 19 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: economy reporter William Horrobin on the mental health legacy of 20 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen sefe I've been a psychologist for ten years 21 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: and I've never seen this kind of thing. We had 22 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: no idea where this could lead to. Man is by 23 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: nature relatively strong at picking himself up. And this is 24 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: what happened with the first lockdown. It was really rebounded 25 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: this way, this is happening to us, but it doesn't matter. 26 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: We'll get there start again. But the second blow was 27 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: the Kudo Graphs. Indica staffed the piece of hotline in France, 28 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: providing psychological support for entrepreneurs in distress. Since France entered 29 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: a second up down in November, some of her six 30 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: hour shifts have become relentless. As soon as she hangs up, 31 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: the phone rings again, and the distress and despair of 32 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: French business leaders is intensifying. Selene Luca is on just 33 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: one of the front lines of a mental health crisis 34 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: that is emerging across the globe in the COVID nineteen pandemic. 35 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: There are multiple causes, the threat of the bankruptcy for 36 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: business owners and rising unemployment for workers, not to mention 37 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: the psychological strain for vast numbers of people from being 38 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: confined to their homes. From an economic view, researchers have 39 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: been looking at mental health at least since the nineties, 40 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: when studies established a link between an increase in suicide 41 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: rates and the economic slump following the Wall Street crash. 42 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: In recent times, the focus has been on a more 43 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: complex into play. Mental ill health is both a symptom 44 00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 1: of economic malais and a cause, and that this is 45 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: the question of what kind of legacy the pandemic will 46 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: leave behind. Christopher Prints, a labor analyst at the o 47 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: e c D, has spent a decade grappling with the 48 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: links between mental health, employment, and the economy. His research 49 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: suggests that poor mental health cost developed economies are staggering 50 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: four percent of GDP in any given year. For the US, 51 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: that's more than eight hundred billion dollars. Basically, there's two 52 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: main reasons. One is the very high prevalence of mental 53 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: health problems in the population, so with as we know 54 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: from all kinds of statistics, is about one in five 55 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: of the population at any point in time, So the 56 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: sheer number creates high cost. And the second factor is 57 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: that those who have mental health conditions, they do face 58 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: challenges in terms of the education outcomes, in terms of 59 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: the employment outcomes, so that there's These two things together 60 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: explain the high cost. Right, So, we have a lot 61 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: of people and everyone who has issues is at high 62 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: risk of having experience really poorer educational employment outcomes, which 63 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: cost the economy a lot. Part of the cost is 64 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: accounted for by measuring direct government spending on care and 65 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 1: support for people not working for mental health reasons, but 66 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: to get closer to the full cost requires more complex 67 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: estimates of lost productivity in the workplace and lost tax revenues. 68 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: Might be simple to add up costs of sick leave, 69 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 1: but not under performance or the impact of what is 70 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: known as present tears and that unproductive time you spend 71 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: in an office, or how coworkers are affected by the 72 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: problems of others. These four percent that we have estimated 73 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: is still a very very lower boundary of any real, 74 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: real cost to the economy. How could the COVID pandemic 75 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: change this equation for workers, entrepreneurs and governments in the 76 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: long run. According to researcher Michel de Beaux, a doctor 77 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: who led a French study on suicidal ports last year, 78 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: there are indications that the mental health crisis will have 79 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: a long tail. His survey, for example, showed more people 80 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: reported considering suicide when restrictions were lifted than when they 81 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: were first but in place. There may be a silver 82 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: lining to the crisis. As mental health takes a more 83 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: central place in debate, it could spare governments to review 84 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: policies in a way that helps both mental health and 85 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: the economy. In that respect, the o c LE has 86 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: three main recommendations. Improved training, a frontline workers, intervened sooner 87 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: to help people, and crucially integrate mental health into all 88 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: policy areas class secrecy. What I fear is that if 89 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: we're not able to provide a response to this distress, 90 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: to this depression, rather than finding a population that is 91 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: able to rebound in the spring, we will still be 92 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: in a state of dress at that moment. That's why 93 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: it's an issue today. It's an issue for the well 94 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: being of tomas. The vaccine for the coronavirus being rolled 95 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: out in many countries. Attention is turning to managing infections 96 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: over the next few months and then the hope for 97 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:28,679 Speaker 1: economic recovery, but for long term prosperity, underlying psychological effects 98 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: of this pandemic may prove just as important. Sadly, I 99 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: think we will have pretty significant consequences ahead of us 100 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: in terms of mental health. I think we've not got 101 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: past the worst. I think that it's still to come. Well, 102 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: I'm I'm joined now by Lord Richard Layard, Professor and 103 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: founder and director of the Center for Economic Performance at 104 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: the London School of Economics. I think it's fair to 105 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: say he was one of the first economists to start 106 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: working on happiness, years before it was fashionable, and he 107 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: spent the past few years researching mental health, trying to 108 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: persuade policymakers to take it seriously as an economic issue 109 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: as well as a human and a social one. In fact, 110 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: he's just published a book, another book, Can We Be 111 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: Happier Ethics and Evidence. Richard, thank you very much for 112 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: coming on Stephanomics, just to think about COVID first, and 113 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: then I know we also, I'm very keen to talk 114 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: about sort of broader issues around this, but you know, 115 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: we heard there some of the concern about the mental 116 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: health implications of COVID. You know, we've had a massive recession. 117 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: Recessinge always make people unhappier by and large, but the 118 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: added impact on mental health of fear of COVID, the 119 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: social isolation of those in lockdown. You know, there are 120 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: now a lot of policymakers worried about this. You know, 121 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: how do you view uh, the mental health impact of COVID. Well, 122 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: there's very good evidence that mental health has deteriorated during 123 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: the lockdown, and it's particularly affected people who were already 124 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: more likely to have poor mental health, which means young people, 125 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: women and poor people. So it's a dis equalizing effect 126 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: as well as a bad thing all around. But I 127 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: think the thing which I feel strongest about is that, um, 128 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: the situation for mentally old people has been very, very 129 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: bad from before COVID. Basically, in this world, if you're 130 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: physically sick, you get treated, and if you're mentally sick, 131 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: you don't get treated. UM in most countries, if you 132 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: look at the surveys that will been done with people 133 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: in households where you then diagnose whether they have a 134 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: mental health condition or not, you find that under a 135 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: third heard of the people with a mental health condition 136 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 1: are receiving any treatment or have recently received any I mean, 137 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: we would think this was outrageous if it was the 138 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: case for any equally serious physical condition, and these are 139 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: serious conditions. I mean, depression is a more disabling condition 140 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:26,719 Speaker 1: than asthma, arthritis, um angina, many other characteristic physical illnesses 141 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: um and of course it causes a massive economic cost 142 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:35,119 Speaker 1: in terms of people being either out of work altogether 143 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: or absenteerism or present he is um um and yet 144 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: the treatment rates are as low as I said, So 145 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: I think that we have to take advantage of COVID 146 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: and the alarm which has caused other mental health to 147 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 1: really address this problem. This is a great moment to 148 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: do it. I should say to listeners outside Britain that 149 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: we have managed actually to get the British government to 150 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: address this problem more seriously than most other governments over 151 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: the last ten or twelve years, and we have created 152 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: a completely new service for evidence based psychological therapy within 153 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: our National Health Service, which is now treating nearly two 154 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: thirds of a million people each year with good recovery 155 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: rates um as of the same sort of levels would 156 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: expect from trials, which means over so it can be done. 157 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: But even the British program is behind schedule at the 158 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: moment was before COVID. So it is extraordinary how difficult 159 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: it is to get policymakers to take this seriously. In 160 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: spite of the massive suffering. Obviously human suffering the most 161 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: serious aspect of it, but also the big impact not 162 00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: only on the simple economics that I mentioned, but also 163 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 1: a very big impact on physical health. I mean, one 164 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: of the reasons mental health it causes so much absenteerisum 165 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: and so on, is that it also deteriorates the person's 166 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: physical health, and therefore the amount of physical healthcare which 167 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: a person gets with a given physical illness is more 168 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: if they're mentally ill. That's another huge burden on our economy. 169 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: So there are all these reasons why we should be 170 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: taking mental health a lot more seriously, and let's hope 171 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: that the COVID experience makes people do it well. You 172 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: mentioned there that you have had some success getting the 173 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: UK to focus on it, but I wonder how successful 174 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: we've been integrating into our thinking about other policies, because 175 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: there's still a tendency to sort of put it in 176 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: a different box. And it might even be a risk 177 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: after COVID that there's less money going into that because 178 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: of other things that are perceived to be more central 179 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: to economic policy. So how do we address that that 180 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: it's treated in isolation from other economic policies and other 181 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: social policies. Well, obviously, as a people like to say 182 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: prevention is better than than cure. My feeling is that 183 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: we know a certain amount about prevention and the most 184 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: obvious area um is the school system, which is a 185 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: tremendous lever we have to improve the mental health of 186 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 1: the whole population. And remarkably we found in studies which 187 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: we've done, including the famous so called ALSPAC data base 188 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:43,839 Speaker 1: from Bristol, we found that schools have as much an 189 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: effect on the mental health of children as parents. And 190 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: now this is a very very important They just are 191 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: having that effect and this shows you know, if if 192 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: they as it were, can have such a big differential effect, 193 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: and we should exploit it to make sure that they 194 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: are doing The worst schools are doing as well or 195 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: better than the best schools. And I think that there's 196 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: very good evidence based programs for teaching good mental health 197 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: habits which could be used right throughout the school curriculum. 198 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: I've been involved in developing one called Healthy Minds, which 199 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: had very good effects in a proper trial, which was 200 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: a four year curriculum for secondary school pupils. But we 201 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: really should be getting schools to take the whelming of 202 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: the children as one of their main objectives equal I 203 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 1: would say, to the academic development of the children. And 204 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: this will probably only happen given that we are now 205 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: in an age of measurement. If we measure the well 206 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: being of the children so remarkably. Our Prime Minister the 207 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: reason may promised at one point to organize the measurement 208 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: of well being and of children in schools, so that 209 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: each school would know whether it's children were as it 210 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: were moving from year to year upwards, relative to their 211 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: cohort in the country as a whole or not. Absolutely 212 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: nothing has happened about it. Uh, some excellent people are 213 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: trying to get a pilot going in Manchester. But this, 214 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: I think, you know, across Europe, this should be one 215 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: of the the key steps in what I think of 216 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: as the well being movement. I mean I think of 217 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: myself as part of a well being movement to try 218 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: and shift the priorities of the society to ultimately the 219 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: well being of the population, both the child population and 220 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: the adult population. And there are a whole series of 221 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: building blocks and doing that. But I think it's also 222 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: incredibly important we just changed the overall objectives which are 223 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: policy makers have in mind. I mean, what they think 224 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: matters to people. It's just not borne out by the evidence. 225 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at the evidence in many 226 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: different ways. You can look at the evidence of what's 227 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: important to people, and people have now been discovering it 228 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: in COVID of course. Well, here are the different ways 229 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: you can examine this. You can simply measure how happy 230 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: people are. Um. And then you get all the kinds 231 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: of other information about their situation in life and see 232 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: which bits of their situation best explain how happy they are. 233 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: That's one approach. Another approach is to ask them what 234 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: do they worry about from day to day. You get 235 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: the same answers. The same answers are always this. So 236 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: the top worry that people have is health and and 237 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: then and that includes the mental health their own, their 238 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: parents mental health, their children's mental health. Then physical health 239 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: that is for most people only worry in the last 240 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: two or three decades of life. UM. Then the next 241 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: things that people worry about our relationships. And we know 242 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: it ourselves, We're honest with ourselves. We know that these 243 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: are the things we worry about. Our close personal relationships 244 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: in the family, our relationships at work, and maybe other 245 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: dimensions of work are also important, whether it might mind 246 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: bending lye boring or whatever, and then community. Only after 247 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: that comes income. And yet our politicians absolutely assume that 248 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: the number one concerned that people have is their income. 249 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: But one of the reasons that governments do that is 250 00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: that the people vaiting for them also think money may 251 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: them happy. I think that is part of the disconnected. 252 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: It's not just politicians. And Daniel Carnovan Madems are famous 253 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: by many insights, one of which was that people, of 254 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: course misfecast the importance of getting more income or a 255 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: bigger house. But I come back though to the survey 256 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: which I was slightly involved with, the survey done by 257 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: Sainsbury's Grosser as it was, but it was a survey 258 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 1: of the whole population, and it shows that the the 259 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,880 Speaker 1: when people are asked to rank money and debt against 260 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: all the other things that I've talked about, it comes six. 261 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: So and I'll tell you what I think. The reason 262 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: is that politicians think like this is that they don't 263 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: think that people think that these other worries that they 264 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: have are things that the state can in any way 265 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: help them with. So it's a fairly recent things for 266 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: people really to think that the states can do too 267 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: much about income. But it's now firmly in people's minds 268 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: that the state is responsible to a degree for people's incomes, 269 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: for their education, and I suppose now we would say 270 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 1: for their physical health. But given that we now have 271 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: good evidence based ways in which we can help people 272 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: with these personal problems, their mental health, addictions, domestic violence, 273 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: all these issues which are now becoming coming up into 274 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: the public arena, partly because people are beginning to realize 275 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: that the state can offer support. It's not a matter 276 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: of forcing people to be happier, offering them support when 277 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: they're struggling. Um that this is going to be undoubtedly, 278 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: in my view, the great, great area of development of 279 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: state activity. It's not very expensive, it saves a lot 280 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: of money, it will save a lot of money on prisons, 281 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: littles over a lot of money on physical illness and 282 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: so on. But we are going to be seeing the 283 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: big development over the next decades of support for families, 284 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: for children, for loneliness and old age. All these things 285 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: are going to become within the ambit of things which 286 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 1: which the state and the population expect the state to provide. 287 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: And I think if we had this conversation ten years ago, 288 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: and certainly when you first started writing Richard about happiness, 289 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: you were very much on the fringes not of economics 290 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: as an economists, but in thinking about that um and 291 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 1: now it's very much what you're saying is tapping into 292 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 1: a vein that's very mainstream, the idea that economic growth 293 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: is not the solution to everything, that the quality of 294 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: our lives and of economic growth matters as much as 295 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: the quantity um. But if so, if we were, if 296 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: you're sitting in government across Europe or in the US 297 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: incoming President Biden, thinking how do I really incorporate this 298 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: in policy and as part of my building back better? 299 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: As everyone talks about if you're going to build back 300 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: better in this direction, briefly, what what's the big what 301 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: are the pieces of that? The first thing actually is 302 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:28,479 Speaker 1: the methodology. I mean, when people go to the finance 303 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: minister and asking for money, I want them to be 304 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: justifying their request by saying, well, this is the effect 305 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: it would have on well being, and this is cost 306 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: effective way of improving well being because it would be 307 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: a big effect per per per unit of cost in 308 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: terms of improved well being, better bang for the buck 309 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: and the bug should be thought of as money, and 310 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: the bang should be thought of as well being. Um 311 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: So I wanted that change in mindset in procedures in 312 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: the operation of government, and we've been trying to educate 313 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: the British Civil Service to a degree successfully and how 314 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: to do this because there is now this massive evidence 315 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 1: available on what the effects on molding are of all 316 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: the different things that you might do and that happen 317 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: in life. So we need to be using that that evidence. 318 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 1: That's that's number one. But then if you say what 319 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 1: priorities would come out if we did that, then I 320 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: think we're going to see that they're very different. Um 321 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: The idea that you build back better by building a 322 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: lot of physical structures, rose railways, lots of new new 323 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: new physical buildings and so on is much much less 324 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: cost effective than rebuilding proper services for children, proper services 325 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: for families, that proper health service and obviously proper social care, 326 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: proper support for old people in the conditions of extreme loadedness. 327 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: All all the problems that people actually spend most of 328 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: their time worrying about are things which the state can 329 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 1: with small amounts of money, make a massive difference too. 330 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: And I think we need I would call it the 331 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: social infrastructure. We need to be building the social infrastructure, 332 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: rather than focus on thinking the physical infrastructure and either 333 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: ways to produce overall the better society or to level up. 334 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: We should be leveling up through the social mainly through 335 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: the social services. Well, it's an uplifting note to end 336 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,719 Speaker 1: on Richard lay Lord Ler, thank you very much, my pleasure. 337 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Stephanomics. We'll be back next week 338 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: with more on all things economic. Remember you can always 339 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: find us on the Bloomberg terminal, website, app, or wherever 340 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. For more new us An analysis 341 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: from Bloomberg Economics, you can also follow at Economics on Twitter. 342 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: This episode was produced, as ever by Magnus Hendrickson, with 343 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: special thanks to Professor Richard Layoard, William Horrabin, Anya Noosbaum, 344 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: and Gaspar subag Lucy Meekin is the executive producer of 345 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: Stephanomics and the head of Bloomberg podcast is Francesca Levi.