WEBVTT - Death and Cake 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:11.600 When you get to the end of your life, what 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.280 do you want your last memory to be. Do you 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.360 want it to be that you've just made a deal 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:20.160 that provided you with billions of pounds that you're never 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:22.480 going to be able to spend. Or do you want 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:25.320 that to be the conversation that you had with somebody 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:28.400 that you've barely met and you've made a significant difference 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:30.440 in the life and it's forever changed. 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:36.199 When we set out to make this show about how 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.280 to Live Forever, we had no plans to grapple with 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:43.120 death or grief. This show was supposed to be weird 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:46.800 and funny and full of lightness. And then we started 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:50.839 thinking about immortality and life extension and then talking to 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:55.240 scientists and philosophers, and within a pretty short time, our 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:59.080 little team looked at one another and said, Ah, I 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:02.400 guess we're going to have to talk about death, because 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:07.520 it's the flip side, the quiet part, that unavoidable elephant 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.320 in the room. And so at some point we knew 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:14.240 that confronting death was something we'd have to do, But 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:17.240 weirdly it turned out to be one of the sweetest 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:23.760 conversations all season. I'm Munga's particular This is Skyline. 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:58.120 Drive how to Live Forever. So far on How. 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:02.120 To Live Forever, we've bombarded you with Petrie dishes and cryptobros, 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:06.280 cryogenics and organ sacks and even more stuff you're probably 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:09.000 still trying to wrap your head around. But today I 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:11.120 wanted to tell you about some of the brightest people 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.560 I met guiding folks through a dark space and the 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:19.959 international phenomenon known as death cafes. Death cafes are events 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:23.799 where people gather without judgment or agenda to talk about death, 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:27.800 and the organization is led by two extraordinary British women. 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:30.840 I'm Jeles Baski. I'm one of the co founders of 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:34.799 Death Cafe. I run Death Cafe as a volunteer and 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:37.680 work as a doctor in the NHS. 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:42.000 I'm Susan Barskih. You do work part time as a psychotherapist. 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:48.520 I voluntarily work with Death Cafe, assisting jewels, with some 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.800 admin and with some links to the media. 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:54.880 And tell me what is your relationship with one another? 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:56.560 Susan's my mum. 0:02:58.240 --> 0:02:59.280 It's pretty simple. 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:05.680 Yeah, yeah, So the founder of Death Cafe is my 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:06.280 brother John. 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:14.040 John Underwood was endlessly curious, a lifelong seeker who grew 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:18.519 up in Chester, England. He studied politics, philosophy and economics 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.600 at Oxford. He fell in love with Buddhism and even 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:24.000 worked for a while out of Buddhist center in London. 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:32.160 John was always very philosophical, always searching for meaning in 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:35.080 his life. I think he's kind of felt that the 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:37.960 root of all evil was the lack of time and 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:40.600 energy that people apply to the idea of death and dying, 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:44.400 like all based in consumerism and politics, and people are 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:46.800 kind of grasping for all of these things that they're 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:51.320 never going to achieve because they don't think is this 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:55.640 really that important? And that was something that he strived 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:57.080 to do every single day. 0:03:57.760 --> 0:03:59.440 Can you tell me a little bit more about the 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.080 jin of the cafe, Well. 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:06.520 My husband saw an article in a newspaper about a 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:11.240 man called Bernard Critaz who was a Swiss sociologist and 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:17.240 he had held things called cafe motel in bars in Switzerland. 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.880 Creta's cafe mortels were informal salons where people were invited 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:25.400 to talk about death. It was a purposefully no rule 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:29.200 set up inviting all commerce, with the only plan being 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:32.920 to talk as openly as possible about this taboo topic. 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:35.960 His first was in two thousand and four, and eventually 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:39.039 he held hundreds around bars in alpine towns like his. 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.279 He even got to Paris in twenty ten, where a 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.920 journalist wrote a piece about it for The Independent. After 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.400 John caught wind, he connected with Kreta and attended his 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:52.680 final death cafe in Lausanne, Switzerland. 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:57.440 Berard Cretaz stud I hand my mantle over to you 0:04:58.040 --> 0:04:59.760 was a really lovely moment. 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:01.360 Oh wow. 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:04.840 And so how does he end up starting the cafes. 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:09.239 It started in his kitchen in Hackney and East London, 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.839 and he's got some friends together and some people that 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:19.040 you knew. In September twenty eleven and I facilitated the 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:20.279 first one. 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.279 The first death cafe was a little bit different than 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.599 death cafes look now, So there was a burning of 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.479 effigies there. It was quite structured. There were sort of 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:33.239 activities and whatnot. And then mum said to him John, 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:36.800 stop just let people talk. Let there be some silence 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:39.599 and some space for people to kind of just start 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.560 to speak about the things they're important to them. And 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.680 it was after that that John created the guidelines alongside 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:49.400 my mum, which are very specific about what death cafes 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:51.840 are and are not and how to run them? 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:56.080 Can you walk me through a typical death cafe meeting today? 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.839 Well, the thing is that it's always different. It depends 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:03.080 on the people that go. Before it starts, I have 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:08.400 music playing that is my own personal preference. And then 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:11.960 people sit down at the appointed time, and I and 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.080 always forget to tell them how long we're going to 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.200 be there, which is an hour and a half. Please 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:21.400 turn off your phone, Please be respectful to everybody's views, 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:25.919 and can you tell us what's brought you here today? 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:30.120 And that is literally what you do. And the conversation 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:31.760 then flows from there. 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:34.800 With some introduction about how death a cafe started, like 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.200 it was started by John Jiels. Yeah, yeah, and then 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:39.320 there will be in a reiteration a little bit of 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.839 the guidelines. Death cafes are always free. We only ask 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.560 for donations which pay for costs. We're not going to 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.159 lead anybody to a course of action or conclusion. This 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.680 is literally just no topics. Everybody can speak about whatever 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.159 they'd like to speak about. You shouldn't run a death 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:58.520 cafe in order to promote your product or your service. Hi, 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.440 I don't actually say any of you should? 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:03.960 Yes? 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:10.040 Plus yeah, Well I have recently started running a regular 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.800 series of death cafes, which I've never done before, And 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:18.880 what I really love is how much closeness and intimacy 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.640 can develop in the hour and a half that you 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.760 speak with these strangers. And I'm never probably going to 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:28.480 see most of them again, and it's incredible that you 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:32.360 need to experience it to understand. But it never ceases 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:36.280 to amaze me how such a simple thing can bring 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:37.960 such closeness between people. 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:43.200 And I hear that there's cake a piece events. Why 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:44.320 the cake? 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:50.760 There's always cake, so Joan described it as having kind 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.120 of like a midnight feast. But it's a bit kind 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.640 of naughty talking about something that's so to do whilst 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:00.720 having delicious cake and cups of tea, because their ritual 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:04.440 of eating is nourishing and therefore kind of life prolonging. 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:08.400 Always make okay, that's part of my preparation. I've done 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:12.800 a ginger and spice treakle cake and lemon drizzle cake, 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:17.800 chocolate cake. I'm wondering about coffee and walnut, but I 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.240 don't know whether that's a bit niche. I don't know 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:21.520 what you think me. 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:23.560 I shouldn't have a pinion of the vial. 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:30.360 There is a belief that it's going to be very 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.720 sad and mournful going to a death cafe, but certainly 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:37.160 the one I did last week, people laughed a lot. 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:39.400 It was a lot of fun. 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:42.840 Do you feel like when people walk out of these 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:47.720 cafes that they have a renewed spirit of life? Do 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:50.040 they seem lighter? Like? What's the feeling of the person 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:52.000 that walks out of these places versus the person who 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:52.400 comes in? 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:57.719 I think the sharing makes it you feel lighter. And 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:02.160 it's like I was thinking about after a therapy session, 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:06.560 if I've done a reasonable job, people walk out feeling better. 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.280 It's almost like their face. You know, people's faces can 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:15.360 be worried and creased, and then when they relax, their 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.880 faces look like the bean I and I think they 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:21.720 look like that when they come out of a death cafe. 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:26.080 So tell me, like, are these clubs? Are they for grief? 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:28.320 Why exactly do people join? 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:32.920 Well, they've joined for a variety of reasons. Curiosity is 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.640 one of them, and another one is the fact that 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:40.520 it's not always acceptable in our culture to be talking 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.760 about death and dying, and people want to feel free 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:47.840 to be able to do that. It's not just about grief. 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:51.839 Griefs often comes up in the conversation, and we. 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.640 Actually discourage people who are what we call in the 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:58.080 white hot heat of grief from attending the cafes just 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:01.360 because there are places that are much better for providing 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:04.600 grief support than death cafes are. Grief is always going 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:07.480 to make an appearance, I think, because the majority of 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.839 people who are thinking about death and dying have had 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:12.560 an experience in their lives which is directly associated. But 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.160 having said that, you've also got people who attend who 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.120 have never had that experience, and you know, had thanatophobia 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.000 or fear of death, and this kind of is almost 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.960 like an exposure therapy to provide them with an opportunity 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:30.120 to make that first journey into maybe coming to terms 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:41.160 with it. 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:43.359 It was just a matter of time before our conversation 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:47.080 came around to grief, partially because grief is at the 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.439 heart of their story and why Susan and Jules continue 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:54.960 to run Death Cafe International. Jules is also a physician 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.160 and she was pregnant with her second child during our conversation. 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:03.800 You know, John was doing this full time and it 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.920 was his baby, whereas you know I'm kind of balancing 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:11.199 this alongside my own family life and you. 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.640 Know, working in a job that takes quite a lot 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:14.080 of from me. 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:20.400 John Underwood died in twenty seventeen, six years after that 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:22.720 first death cafe in his kitchen and Hackney. 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:24.600 He was just forty four. 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:27.839 When we come back from a quick break, we'll hear 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:30.439 more about his life and how facing his own death 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:47.560 helped others, including his own family, deal with the measurable loss. 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:54.840 John had been feeling unwell for a couple of weeks, 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:58.880 assuming it was a kind of flu bug, and then 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.360 he collect appsed very suddenly after taking his children to 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.280 a swimming class. So we all rushed over to the 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.640 hospital where he was and we were with him whilst 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:11.520 he was on life support. He'd had a brain hemorrhage 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:13.840 as a result of a rare form of leukemia called 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:19.400 acute promyolytticul leukemia, which would have been treatable if they'd 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.439 discovered the source of the bleeding before it had caused 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:26.280 catastrophic damage by resort of a stroke. So my mum 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.160 and I were with John, and I think a lot 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:32.320 of it was for me anyway, knowing what John would 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:36.040 have been wanting at that point, and then because of 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.880 Death Cafe, he'd already created this vast network of people 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:43.439 who knew about him and had been on the front 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:45.760 cover of the New York Times and had been in 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.520 the Huffington Post. You know, he was a public figure. 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:56.720 John's wife Donna, announced his passing in a blog post 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:01.480 on the Death Cafe website. As you all know, the 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:04.400 objective of death Cafe is helping us all make the 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:08.959 most of our finite lives with shocking poignancy. On Sunday, 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:12.360 the twenty fifth of June, we experienced the finiteeness of 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:16.600 life at its most brutal, and more specifically, the finiteness 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:20.160 of the life of John Underwood, founder of Death Cafe, 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:24.520 dad to two truly amazing children, and my husband. 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:26.280 He was forty four. 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.720 What was it like to lose him? But also to 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:40.600 know that he was ready or thinking about his death 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:43.480 in a way that a lot of people don't or 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:44.440 don't make time for. 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.960 There was some comfort for me that he had discussed 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:49.760 the fact that, you know, we don't know how long 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:51.480 we're going to be here. This could be the last 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:55.560 time that you see somebody, or you get to hold 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:58.640 that person dealing with his legacy. Making sure that Death 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:03.880 Cafe was being run gave an opportunity to focus on something. 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:06.720 I don't know if it necessarily helped with grief because 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:08.880 it was so sudden and he was so very important 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:12.640 to all of us, but it provided me with an 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.439 outlet from the energy that was kind of coming from 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:16.040 the situation. 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:21.400 Working on Death Cafe maintains a sort of closeness with 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:25.720 him that I might not feel otherwise. The fact that 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.880 he started this and we're carrying it on is a 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:30.560 really a good feeling. 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:33.920 What's it been like to carry on some of his 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:34.640 legacy for you? 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.040 When I'm doing this work, I feel like I'm kind 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:42.200 of embodying a part of him that still exists a 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.680 lot of the replies that I send to people are 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.080 based on interactions that he's had with them in the past. 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:49.800 You know, I use his email accounts, so I'm looking 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:52.160 at like, what's the history with this person? What would 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:55.320 John have said about this particular difficult thing that's appearing. 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:59.480 But then I think there's also an element of is 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.000 this what's required in the world because things have changed, 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:06.160 Like he wasn't here through COVID and the kind of 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.280 political and rest that's happening across the world at the moment. 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.080 You know, would this have made a difference to the 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:14.560 decisions that he would have made. 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:23.080 You've described John as a seeker, and you've also described 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:26.760 him as someone who felt a greater calling to leave 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.720 a big job to take on what to him was 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:33.440 a more important job. And you've also described him in 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:37.160 this shade of almost like naughtiness, this fun and this 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.880 convivial person. Can you describe who John was to you 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:42.440 and who he was in the family. 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.200 He would sit up for hours having one on one 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:49.640 conversations with somebody about his view on what they were 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:55.240 telling him about and provide some quae kind of judgmental 0:15:55.320 --> 0:16:01.000 views sometimes, but I think, you know, it kind of 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:05.000 came from a place of wisdom and experience, And I 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:07.520 think there are some people who just have this kind 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.800 of special quality about them that you can't necessarily describe, 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:16.240 but it's kind of like a presence and a thoughtfulness 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:18.960 that you're just kind of born with. 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:21.120 That. 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.360 In addition to that, he was also like incredibly silly 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:28.360 and a joker, and you know, just made people laugh 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:32.200 and said daft things a lot. He was a very 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:36.960 loving son, or was very good at listening. If you 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.360 wanted to think something over it was a good person 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:43.000 to phone and and say this is happening, what you think? 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:47.280 And just being around him was just brilliant. He was 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.000 a great dad as well, a really good dad. 0:16:53.120 --> 0:17:09.240 Was he an optimist? No? In your minds, what is 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:12.280 the sort of ultimate goal for this movement? And would 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:13.560 even consider it a movement? 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:17.120 We describe it as a death cafe movement. I think 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:19.719 that it's taken off so much that describing it as 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.600 something less would kind of be indervaluing it. And it's 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:24.840 made quite a significant change. You know. We have people 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:28.399 who are quite prevalent in the death and dying industry 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:31.680 who've said how influential John and death Cafe has been 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:32.359 to them. 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.679 I was doing some reporting in San Francisco, which is 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:40.800 obviously a land now of bitcoin and billionaires and people 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:45.879 who have sort of worked around certain rules to their advantage. 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.200 And I think that in Silicon Valley there are these 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:54.920 real deep philosophical questions about death, but it's turned from 0:17:55.840 --> 0:18:00.000 what might have been about accepting death to not accept it. 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:02.440 Death right like that you should be prolonging your life 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.040 as long as possible. That there are ways to upload 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:08.080 your consciousness. That we think talking about death gives our 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.480 life meaning, when in fact that's just because that was 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.280 the limit that we previously had. And I'm curious, like, one, 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.639 have you encounter these spaces which seem to be growing 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.000 in the US, And two, like, what do you think 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.879 about that counter weight to what I think is like 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.400 the really beautiful work you're doing at Death Cafe. 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:31.400 So there's there's people like Brian Johnson, right, who are 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.760 trying to live for as long as possible, and they're 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:40.000 dedicating their life to extension of their physiological abilities. I 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.800 can kind of see the appeal of doing that. You know, 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:44.600 if you're enjoying your life and you want to make 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:46.080 the most of it, you want to try and get 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:49.439 as much as you can. But then you're also downplaying 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.960 every single other element of your existence for the pursuit 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:59.280 of elongation, which kind of seems a bit reductive, I suppose. 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:04.679 So are we focusing so much on life extension to 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.520 the point where we can't actually focus on the interactions 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:10.320 that we have every day with our families and the 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.280 people we work with and the people that we see 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:14.840 in the street, You know, are those maybe the more 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:20.000 important parts of our existence. There's an interesting Buddhist lesson 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:23.639 about this bowl of ice cream. You're really craving this 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:26.440 like beautiful bowl of ice cream. You start eating it 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.080 and you're like, oh, this is fantastic. It's huge, and 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.840 you keep on eating it, and then about halfway through 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:33.840 you're thinking, oh, this is the worst thing I've ever done. 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:37.080 You know, I feel terrible. I'm sick and bloated, my 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:40.760 face is sticky, and you know, you think that this 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:43.320 ice cream is going to be everything you ever wanted, 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.920 and it turns out that actually it's not, because never 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:49.280 ending ice cream is never going to be everything that 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:49.919 you want it to be. 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:56.000 I really have no desire to live forever. I'm glad 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:59.959 that my life is finite, and as I get older, 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:04.840 older and my body becomes less comfortable place to be in, 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:09.000 it's only going to get worse. I don't relish the 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:10.280 idea of living forever. 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:14.520 There's a bit of give and take with the whole thing, 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:18.879 Like we want to be living the longest life possible 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:22.119 in the best health that we can achieve, and so 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.320 I can understand people making these steps to make their 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.480 bodies a little bit more sustainable, So you might start 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.600 vitamins and supplements and you might think, oh, I know 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:33.480 that my joints are going to get worse if I 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.200 don't exercise, so I'm going to do that. And you 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:38.560 integrate these things into your life because you know it's 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:40.520 going to bring you an element of happiness. You're going 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:42.920 to be around your loved ones for longer. So it's 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.280 a bit of a balance. You know, John was far 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:47.760 too young for a person to lose their life. And yes, 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:50.679 you can achieve a lot, and you can have an 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:54.800 incredibly meaningful existence, but death is terrible at the end 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:55.280 of the day. 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:58.600 Like for the people that are left it's terrible. 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:01.240 I think there's a don't you know, there's the experience 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:04.320 of the person themselves goes through when they're dying. It's 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:07.399 an incredibly painful experience. They have to deal with the 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:10.160 emotions with their family members as well. So I don't 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.720 think it's just the people that are left behind. And 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:15.840 I suppose when you work with death and dying in 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:18.119 the way that we do, you think about death in 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:22.480 quite a different way, and you know you've got to 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.080 start somewhere, right. You can do nothing, or you can 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.320 try to change the kind of general populace from the 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.440 ground up. And if you can just make these small 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:34.399 moments in people's lives a little bit better or a 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:36.919 little bit more thoughtful, if that's the best you're going 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:38.159 to do, at least you've done something. 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:48.920 As we've wrapped up our conversation, my mind kept going 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:51.879 back to the semester I spend to bed and the 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:57.200 sky burials I'd witnessed there this ritual that reminds mourners 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:00.919 of the impermanence of life. Knowing that John was a 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:05.240 devoted Buddhist, I wondered if at the core, death cafes 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:06.600 perform a similar rule. 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:11.680 What is your goal for. 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:15.760 Someone who comes to a death cafe beyond sort of 0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:19.399 walking out and feeling lighter, Like, do you think they 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:22.280 should all wake up every morning and consider the fact 0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:25.280 that they might die today or that their life is impermanent. 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:29.080 I think knowing that it's had the tiniest impact on 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:31.840 someone's life, that they kind of that they do think 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:35.679 about death and dying. For me, it's made my interactions 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:39.280 with people much more meaningful because I think, is this 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:41.159 the last time that this person is ever going to 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:44.840 speak to anybody else? And If that's the case, is 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:46.760 that the kind of taste in your mouth that you 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:47.520 want to leave them with? 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:14.959 Thank you so much for listening. That is it for 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:19.439 the bonus episodes of this season of Skyline Drive. I 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:22.400 would like to thank Jules Barski and Susan Barski Reid 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:25.240 for taking the time to share their story and John's. 0:23:25.760 --> 0:23:28.280 If you'd like to learn more about the death Cafe movement, 0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:31.640 please go to Deathcafe dot com. There might be one 0:23:31.680 --> 0:23:34.240 near you, and if not, maybe you'd like to start one. 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:36.680 We'll also put a link in the show notes. If 0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:40.080 you liked this series, please please tell a friend and 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:42.359 it really does help if you rate and review, so 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:46.400 of course we would be appreciative for that too. And 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:49.800 if you didn't know already, making this show has been 0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:51.320 such a joy. 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:54.359 I've loved getting to learn and share with all of you. 0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:57.240 So if you want to ask a question, share a story, 0:23:57.359 --> 0:24:00.800 or just get in touch, do not hesitate to reach out. 0:24:01.200 --> 0:24:05.080 You can reach me at insta at M particular and 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:07.680 hopefully we'll get to do a season three in the 0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:12.280 not so distant This interview was produced by the wonderful 0:24:12.359 --> 0:24:16.720 Lizzie Jacobs. Additional production and research by Mary Philip Sandy. 0:24:17.160 --> 0:24:20.200 Thanks as always to our editor Mark Latto, who told 0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:22.600 me the series was going to be about depth before 0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:25.520 I was ready to admit it. This episode was mixed 0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:28.399 by my good pal Dylan Fagan, who's over there in 0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:32.119 the booth eating a giant slice of cake. Thank you 0:24:32.200 --> 0:24:33.119 so much for listening.