1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: A note for listeners, this episode contains discussion of suicide. 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:10,959 Speaker 1: Please listen with caution and care. So, Amanda, thank you 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: for joining me. I want to introduce you to listeners 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: who might not know who you are. You are a podcaster, 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: You have a podcast with your husband called Labyrinth, and 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: you are an ethical storyteller. 7 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 2: Is how you like to refer to yourself. 8 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 3: Yes, and for those who don't know, I also was 9 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 3: wrongly convicted, which is how we know each other through. 10 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: The Innocence Network. 11 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 3: So it's great to see you again, Maggie, Amanda. 12 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: When you look at wrongful convictions with women, what are 13 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: maybe the three most common. 14 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 2: Factors you see? 15 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 3: So the vast majority of cases where women are wrongly 16 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 3: convicted actually involve them be accused of a crime that 17 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 3: never happened in the first place. What ultimately happens in 18 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 3: a lot of these cases is women who are suddenly 19 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 3: shocked by a tragic thing that happens to them feel 20 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 3: a sense of guilt that is then utilized by the 21 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 3: police to either coerce them to falsely confessing, or is 22 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 3: used as a way to suggest that they are behaving 23 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 3: like a guilty person. So someone who is experiencing grief 24 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 3: or shock is told that they're not acting the way 25 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 3: that a person is supposed to act in their situation. 26 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 3: And there's also this assumption that we have that women, 27 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 3: especially in the caretaking role, are somehow responsible when something 28 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 3: tragic and unfortunate happens to someone who is in their 29 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 3: care and we need to push back against those assumptions 30 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 3: and narratives of the perfect mother and the perfect wife 31 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 3: and the perfect daughter and instead acknowledge that human beings 32 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 3: are complicated and that there is more to the story, 33 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 3: likely than we are being told in the media. 34 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 4: I kept thinking that I wouldn't have to say anything, 35 00:01:55,360 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 4: because in my mind at that time, struggling was thinking 36 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 4: that it was my fault, that I should have done 37 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 4: something different. I didn't realize that saying these things was 38 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,679 Speaker 4: making me look guilty. I didn't realize that people were 39 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 4: watching that every moon. 40 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: From Lava for Good this is wrongful conviction with Maggie 41 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: Freeling today Tammy Pool. On the evening of April twenty second, 42 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, Tammy Pool and her husband Michael 43 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: got into an argument at their home in Chatsworth, Georgia. 44 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: They had a tumultuous relationship and this was not unusual. 45 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: This time, though, a gun was involved and Michael suffered 46 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: a fatal bullet wound to his temple. Tammy says the 47 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: shot was self inflicted and that Michael had often threatened 48 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: suicide in the past, but as the only witness to 49 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: the shooting, police saw Tammy as a suspect. A case 50 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: was quickly built against her, and she was arrested, charged, 51 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: and convicted for the murder of her husband, Michael. 52 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 4: This is not happening. This can't be happening. How do 53 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 4: they not know. I didn't realize that my lawyers did nothing. 54 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 4: I didn't realize that there was no science to it, 55 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 4: just one opinion. He assured me he was going to 56 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 4: tell the jury how it happened, and that never never happened. 57 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 4: I am Tammy Poole. I've been incarcerated in Georgia prisons 58 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 4: for fifteen years. 59 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: Tammy Pool was born December twenty seventh, nineteen seventy three, 60 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: in l j, Georgia, to Rose and Curtis David. She's 61 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: the youngest of two kids. Her brother, Danny, is fifteen 62 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: years older. 63 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 4: I always looked up to my brother. He was just 64 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 4: great to me. He had this wonderful, big, huge cat. 65 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 4: I used to share my ice cream with it, and 66 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 4: I just loved that cat. 67 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: Tammy and her brother learned to find joy in the 68 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 1: little things, especially since their family didn't have a lot 69 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: of money. 70 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,119 Speaker 4: One year, we weren't able to get a birthday cake, 71 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 4: and my mom had bought a couple of boxes of 72 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 4: little debbies and arranged them and made it look like 73 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 4: a clown so it was a clown cake. So I 74 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 4: remember that being happy. 75 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: But Tammy's childhood was also filled with a lot of trauma. 76 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 4: My father drank a lot. My mother was a hoarder, 77 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 4: so there was a lot of things that went on. 78 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 4: I had different babysitters, so there was some childhood mental, physical, 79 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 4: and sexual abuse. And I've never I just didn't say anything. 80 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 4: I kind of closed in on myself. 81 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: As she got older, she admits she started expressing her 82 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:44,799 Speaker 1: trauma in destructive ways. 83 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 4: When I was seventeen years old, I was hanging around 84 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 4: with some people that were a little older than me, 85 00:05:54,040 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 4: and they were breaking into houses. I was in the 86 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 4: vehicle while they went in, and of course they ended 87 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 4: up getting caught, and then I had got in trouble 88 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 4: for shoplifting. 89 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: When Tammy was seventeen, she met her first husband, Kenny. 90 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: After about a year together, on August fifth, nineteen ninety two, 91 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: she gave birth to her first child, Shannessy. 92 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 4: It was amazing just to see her born, to see 93 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 4: her little face when she came out, it was just 94 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 4: absolutely amazing. Then within just a few months, I was 95 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 4: pregnant again and this was my son, Christopher. He was 96 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 4: born July twenty third, nineteen ninety three, so that was 97 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 4: only eleven and a half months after Shannessy, so we 98 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 4: would call those Irish twins. 99 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: Tammy and her husband bought a house in Chatsworth, Georgia. 100 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:56,119 Speaker 2: Life was great. 101 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: They were living their dream and their children have fond memories. 102 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 2: What do you remember about growing up with your mom? 103 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 5: I remember her taking us to Disney World, I mean 104 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 5: riding the Tower of Terror and I was terrified. 105 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 2: This is Tammy's oldest child, Shannessy. 106 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 5: I remember her like teaching me how to drive when 107 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 5: I was younger, like bits and pieces, and her taking 108 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 5: me to beauty pageants. She was like my biggest fan 109 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 5: when I was in beauty pageants. 110 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 4: I used to take them to karate practice and I 111 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 4: tried to coach them in basketball, a little five and 112 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 4: six year old teams, and I didn't know how to 113 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 4: play basketball, but I just wanted to spend time with them, 114 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 4: and I wanted them to have the things that I 115 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 4: didn't have. 116 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: On the outside, Tammy, Kenny and their kids were a 117 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: picture perfect family, but her marriage with Kenny soon hit 118 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: the rocks. 119 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 4: We were We were good for a little while, and 120 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 4: then about ten years in we decided to call it quit. 121 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: Tammy's past had caught up with her and it led 122 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: her to drug use. 123 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 4: I had battled with addiction to. 124 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: Miss and. 125 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 4: Ah, I just I'm not sure exactly what to say 126 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 4: about that. A lot of people may understand that childhood trauma, 127 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 4: especially untreated childhood trauma, you live your life in a 128 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 4: way kind of like on autopilot. You just do. You 129 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 4: don't really think about it. So my struggle with drugs, 130 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 4: I didn't really think about that. I just I just 131 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 4: did it. 132 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: Tammy's drug use got out of control. She went to 133 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: jail a couple of time because of it, which led 134 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: to more problems between her and Kenny. 135 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 4: We had a awful custody battle, and I was usually 136 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 4: on the losing end. 137 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: Shannessy remembers how it impacted her relationship with her mom. 138 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 5: It wasn't really a conventional relationship, Like I didn't I 139 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 5: felt like I didn't really like my mom because of 140 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 5: everything I had heard, and I wasn't able to form 141 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 5: my own opinion as a child. 142 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: So what were you hearing like people around town or classmates. 143 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 5: Family members, mostly family members saying that like, she's always 144 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 5: going to be a drug addict, she's always going to 145 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 5: be a bad person. She's always like, uh, never going 146 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 5: to be there for me. 147 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 2: And so did you feel like she was a good mom? 148 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 6: Uh? 149 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 5: Well, I mean I felt like she was for a 150 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 5: little while, and then I really don't know when it was, 151 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 5: but I had like she had to meet us at 152 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 5: a place for like supervised visitation, and I remember being 153 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 5: told that she had to take a drug test and 154 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 5: I remember thinking like, that's that's not what I want 155 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 5: as a mom, Like that's not who I want my 156 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 5: mom to be, and that's I didn't really think she 157 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 5: was a good mom at that point. I did when 158 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 5: I was younger, but after probably nine, maybe ten, I 159 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 5: started to think that she was just a junkie and 160 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 5: a bad person because that's what I had been led 161 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 5: to believe, and I wasn't really able to get to 162 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 5: know her because I had already planned in my mind 163 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 5: that I didn't want to. 164 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: Around this time, about two thousand and one, Tammy was 165 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: trying to pick up the pieces of her life when 166 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: she met another man named Robbie. Their son, Brent, was 167 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: born in two thousand three, but that relationship didn't last long. 168 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 4: So I was still in the middle of those custody 169 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 4: battles to get trying to get myself together, trying to 170 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 4: do all these things, but I could never quite reach 171 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 4: my potential. 172 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: Tammy became more motivated to change things though, when she 173 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: met someone else around January two thousand and four. His 174 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: name was Robert Michael Poole and he went by Michael. 175 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 4: He seemed like a really nice person. He had his 176 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 4: own place, he had a job as a carpenter, and 177 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 4: we just started talking. And I was single at the time, 178 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 4: so I just thought it was great. I kind of 179 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 4: thought that he was, Oh, here's this guy that's got 180 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 4: it together and I keep messing up. He can help me. 181 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 4: I kind of looked at him as like my savior. 182 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: Tammy was smitten with Michael. 183 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 4: I just thought that life was gonna get a little better. Okay, 184 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 4: I'm gonna have this normal life. We're gonna be We're 185 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 4: gonna be just fun. 186 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: Like Tammy, Michael had three kids. They moved in together, 187 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 1: and things were on the up for their blended family. 188 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,599 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. We always talked about our kids and we 189 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 4: would take them places like the river and fishing and 190 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 4: things like that, fun things with the kids. I don't know, 191 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 4: we just we called ourselves the Brady Bunch, the Pool Bunch. 192 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,439 Speaker 1: Tammy was finally feeling good in her life. Two thousand 193 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 1: and five. She went back to school at Appalachian Technical 194 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: College to study accounting and business. She eventually pursued a 195 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: paralegal program, and it was love for her older brother 196 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: Danny that inspired her. 197 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 4: He had a lot of run ins with the police, 198 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 4: and I really wanted to keep him out of jail. 199 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 4: So I thought, if I could be a good attorney, 200 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 4: I could keep him out of jail. 201 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: But not long after Tammy and Michael got together, things 202 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 1: took a turn. It started with the house they were 203 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: living in. 204 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 4: It come to find out, the house that he lived in, 205 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 4: he didn't actually he wasn't actually rent in that house. 206 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 4: It wasn't actually his house, so after I had moved 207 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 4: in there with him, we left and moved in with 208 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 4: his sister. And it was just it was. 209 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: Little things, and these were things Michael's ex wife had 210 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: already tried to warn her about. 211 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 4: She tried to talk to me one day, and I 212 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 4: didn't listen. I always thought that it was her fault 213 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 4: that they had split up, and I didn't realize till 214 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 4: probably a year later, that Michael had some serious problems. 215 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 4: Those little things that I liked. I liked the way 216 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 4: he watched me. I liked the way he paid attention, 217 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 4: but it kind of turned dark. If my eyes looked 218 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 4: the wrong way, I was accused of looking at somebody else. 219 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 4: Or it was little things, little things like that. 220 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: But Tammy says, the little things at times also turned 221 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: into physical violence. 222 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 4: And then it was a push and then a harder shove, 223 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 4: and so of course I pushed back, and then I left, 224 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 4: and then we got back together, and then I left, 225 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 4: and then we got back together. 226 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: Timmy says they would follow this cycle countless times. 227 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 4: But of course, me being me, I would make excuses 228 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 4: for him. 229 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: By two thousand and six, things were really bad between 230 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: the two. One day they were driving in the car 231 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: and got into an argument, and it took the. 232 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 2: Trouble they were having to a whole other level. 233 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 4: We had a car accident, but the accident it wasn't 234 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 4: really an accident, like he ran the car off the 235 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 4: road because we were arguing and I had just buckled 236 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 4: my seatbelt because the road that we were on was 237 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 4: just very very curvy, and we hit a tree. 238 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 2: So you think he did it on purpose. 239 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 4: No, he did it on purpose. He said that he 240 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 4: was gonna kill us both. 241 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: Tammy was lucky she survived, although the accident left her 242 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: badly injured with internal bleeding. She would be in a 243 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: walker for months after. Still, Tammy and Michael stayed together, 244 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: but things continued to deteriorate. Tammy started becoming convinced that 245 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: Michael was having some serious mental health issues. 246 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 4: We dabbled in Matthews and I'm not sure. I'm not 247 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 4: sure if he did the wrong kind, if he did 248 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 4: too much. It was like he started going crazy and 249 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 4: there was something. It was odd. Everyone noticed his behavior. 250 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 4: His older sister and I talked about having him committed. 251 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 4: He had went to his ex wife's house tried to 252 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 4: get a telephone that belonged to his dad, this anti telephone, 253 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 4: because he thought he was going to call his The 254 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 4: problem is his dad had been dead for years, so 255 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 4: it was I can't really describe it. 256 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,719 Speaker 1: And Tammy says, Michael continued to talk about suicide. 257 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 4: He had started doing that so much. I had taken 258 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 4: guns away from him before. His little sister had taken 259 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 4: got her boyfriend and taken guns away from him. It 260 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 4: just seemed to be getting worse and worse. I didn't know. 261 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 4: I didn't know what to do. He had found out 262 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 4: that his sister and I were talking about putting in 263 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 4: a mental institution, and he saw that he would He 264 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 4: would kill me, he would kill her, he would kill 265 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 4: us both. That he did not want to go to 266 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 4: a mental institution, and I believe him. The violence at 267 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 4: home was bad. We argued constantly. It was. It was 268 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 4: more than I knew how to deal with. I didn't 269 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 4: know how to help him, help myself, how to convince 270 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 4: him that I loved him and that we were going 271 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 4: to be okay. It was a very, very dark time. 272 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company. 273 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and to making 274 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: a positive difference in the lives of its employees and 275 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 1: in the communities where we work and live. In light 276 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and 277 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform, 278 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: the AIG pro Bono Program provides free legal services and 279 00:18:48,600 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. On the evening 280 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: of April twenty second, two thousand and seven, Tammy and 281 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: Michael were again arguing. 282 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 4: I found out that he had been talking to this girl, 283 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 4: but it turns out he was only talking to her 284 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 4: about drugs. So we were arguing. I told him, I 285 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 4: told him that day that I hope he died, you know. 286 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 4: Then we made up, of course, there's always that makeup period. 287 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: Then Shannessy and Christopher left to spend the evening with 288 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: their father. Brent also went with his dad. 289 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 4: Of course, after the kids left, we had some you know, 290 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 4: makeup making out and I don't know what happened. By 291 00:19:50,520 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 4: something snap and then he just got really really angry, And. 292 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 1: Tammy says, this is when Michael went and grabbed a rifle. 293 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 4: I remember I was on the bed and he pointed 294 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 4: the gun at me, and I got in the fetal 295 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 4: position and I was just saying no, please, no, no, no, 296 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 4: And then he pulled me by my ankle off the 297 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 4: end of the bed and he was banging the gun. 298 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 4: It was a rifle. He was banging it against his 299 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 4: head and it was right there in front of my face. 300 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 4: And I got up. I was standing, and she leaned 301 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 4: over in front of me, and he kept reaching for 302 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 4: the trigger and I had my hands on the end 303 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 4: of the barrel, and I kept thinking, it's gonna shoot me, 304 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 4: It's gonna shoot me. 305 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 2: But Michael didn't shoot her. 306 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 4: He puts the trigger. I'm sorry. 307 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: The bullet hit Michael in the left side of his forehead. 308 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 4: I didn't have any idea what to do. I didn't 309 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 4: know CPR. I kept trying to get my phone to 310 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 4: dial one one one. I didn't want to leave him, 311 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 4: but I had to go outside to go mine one 312 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 4: one and I am. It seemed like it took them 313 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 4: forever to get there. I don't have any idea how 314 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 4: long it was. It just seemed like a really long time. 315 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: An ambulance finally came and took Michael to the hospital. 316 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: Tammy was driven there by a friend from church. At 317 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: the hospital, Michael was pronounced dead. Tammy was absolutely distraught. 318 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 4: I just kept saying, I should have I should have 319 00:21:55,240 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 4: I should have done something different. I should been nicer. 320 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 4: I shouldn't have said what I said when I told 321 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 4: him that day that I hope he died. I shouldn't 322 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 4: have said that. 323 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: When the police came onto the case, they immediately questioned Tammy. 324 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 4: I remember they asked me like a lot of questions. 325 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 4: But I kept thinking that you know, they're gonna know, 326 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 4: They're gonna know he shout himself. 327 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: I mean, they have to know, right, But police were 328 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: focusing on the fact that Tammy's story kept changing. 329 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 4: I kept thinking that I wouldn't have to say anything 330 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 4: because in my mind at that time, I'm struggling with 331 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 4: thinking that it was my fault, that I should have 332 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 4: done something. 333 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: Different, because she felt guilty for telling Michael she wished 334 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: she was dead. Timmy didn't want the police to think 335 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: it was a suicide. 336 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 4: I kept thinking, Okay, well, if I say that a 337 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 4: gun got caught on a broken laundry basket there, that 338 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,479 Speaker 4: the trigger got caught on that, then it wasn't my fault, 339 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 4: and it wasn't Michael's fault and everybody can just live 340 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 4: with a tragic accident. And so that's what I told people. 341 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 4: Then my landlord called and said, what happened? Was he 342 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 4: cleaning the gun? And that was the next morning. And 343 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 4: what was I to say? No, he killed himself because 344 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 4: I was a bad wife. Rather than saying that, I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, 345 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 4: that's what happened. I didn't realize that saying these things 346 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 4: was making me look guilty. I didn't realize that people 347 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 4: were watching that every move I was drowning in my pain. 348 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 4: And I don't know, I don't know what I was thinking. 349 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 4: I can't I can't describe that. 350 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,479 Speaker 1: A pathologist, doctor William Oliver, performed the autopsy on Michael's 351 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: body and declared that the fatal shot was not self inflicted. This, 352 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 1: along with her changing statements, solidified the case against Tammy, 353 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: and just a few months later, in June two thousand 354 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: and seven, she was arrested for the murder of Michael Poole. 355 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 1: Tammy's trials started on June ninth, two thousand and eight, 356 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 1: a year after Michael's death. Her defense attorney, Richard Thurman, 357 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: was actually Michael's cousin by marriage, and if that sounds. 358 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: Like it's weird, it is. 359 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: The prosecutor was da Jo Hendrix and one of his assistants, 360 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: Mike Baird. 361 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 2: Their case was straightforward. 362 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,719 Speaker 1: Tammy was the only one in the room with Michael 363 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: she shot him. A firearms examiner from the Georgia Bureau 364 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: of Investigation, Christopher Robinson, took the stand. He said the 365 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 1: weapon used was the semi automatic rifle found in the 366 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: bedroom Tammy and Michael shared. The prosecutors also called doctor Oliver, 367 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: who testified that the gunshot wound was inflicted not by 368 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: Michael but by someone else. The prosecution also used Tammy 369 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: and Michael's tumultuous relationship, her past run ins with the law, 370 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: and her changing story against her. A woman who had 371 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: been imprisoned in the same facility as Tammy testified that 372 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: Tammy had confessed to her that she had gotten Michael 373 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: quote out of the picture in order to be with 374 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: someone else. Both of Tammy's kids were also called to 375 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: testify against her. 376 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 5: I remember them hounding me with crazy questions like what 377 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 5: we had to eat and what I was doing there 378 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,479 Speaker 5: the week before because it was spring break, Things like 379 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 5: did I see them ever? Like hit each other or 380 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 5: anything like that, and I just I just didn't think 381 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 5: that was a Those are questions to ask a child. 382 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 5: It's like they were trying to get me to say 383 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 5: that they were physically abusive to each other in front 384 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,479 Speaker 5: of everybody, or like they were. They asked me if 385 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 5: I had ever seen them be involved in drugs, and 386 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 5: I was not prepared to answer that on a stand. 387 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: At fourteen, when it came time for Tammy's son, Christopher 388 00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: to take the witness stand, he said he saw Tammy 389 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: and my Michael make up after their fight before leaving 390 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: with his dad. Michael's sister testified that she believed Michael 391 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: would kill Tammy and then himself, and Michael's brother in 392 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: law also testified that Michael had said he would kill 393 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: himself if the circumstances did not improve. Defense attorney Thurman 394 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: also cross examined the woman who had allegedly heard Tammy 395 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: confess while she was in jail. Under cross examination, it 396 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: came out that this witness had a motive of her 397 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: own to sell Tammy out for perhaps less severe charges 398 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: for herself, but the defense did not call any experts 399 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: to refute the States expert that Michael's death was not 400 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: a murder. 401 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 2: The trial was quick, the. 402 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: Jury found Tammy guilty, and she was sentenced to life 403 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: in prison plus twenty seven years. 404 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 4: This is not happening. This is just this can't be happening. 405 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 4: How did they not know? I didn't realize that my 406 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 4: lawyers did nothing. I didn't realize that there was no 407 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 4: science to it, just one opinion. He assured me he 408 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 4: was going to tell the jury how it happened, and 409 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 4: that never never happened. 410 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: Timmy lost everything, including her kids. So did you think 411 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: your mom did this when it first happened. 412 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 5: I did. 413 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: After her mother went to prison, Shannessy says she felt worthless. 414 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 5: I had always been told that I was just like her, 415 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 5: so I started to think, well, maybe I am. Maybe 416 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 5: I just can't be good. Maybe I don't know any 417 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 5: good things to do. 418 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: So Shannessy started running with a bad crowd like her 419 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: mom had done. 420 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 5: After I turned twenty one, I was really well. After 421 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 5: I turned eighteen is when I moved out and I 422 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 5: was able to, Oh goodness, do really crazy things because 423 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 5: I felt like my whole life was not there, Like 424 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 5: I didn't have my mom. My relationship with my dad 425 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 5: was not good. Because of that, and so I just 426 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 5: I kind of felt like I went off the rails. 427 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 5: I guess you could say I started to party, to drink, 428 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 5: being reckless and careless. 429 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: Four years, Shannessye and Tammy went without speaking. During that time, 430 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: Tammy made a point to work on herself. She got 431 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: clean from drugs and sought treatment for her childhood trauma. 432 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: She started doing yoga and focusing on spiritual and physical 433 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: well being. All the while she also kept working on 434 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: her case. Tammy kept thinking. 435 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 4: Surely, at some point they're gonna know. Surely, at some 436 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 4: point somebody will see the truth. 437 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 2: Then someone did see. 438 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: A pro bono attorney picked up Tammy's case, and in 439 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: twenty eleven, they filed a motion for a new trial. 440 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: At this point, Tammy reached out to her kids. She 441 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: let them know she had a court hearing coming up 442 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: and she wanted them to attend. 443 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 5: And I remember going, and I remember sitting in the courtroom, 444 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 5: and when I heard everything they were saying, it was 445 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 5: like my mind was blown. 446 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: All these years, Ennessy thought her mom was a cold 447 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: blooded murderer, but now sitting in the courtroom hearing the evidence. 448 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 5: I couldn't fathom the fact that I was one of 449 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 5: the ones that was against her when there was no 450 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,719 Speaker 5: possible way she could have done this everything they were 451 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 5: laying out in court, There was no way. Something was 452 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 5: seriously wrong with this case. And at that moment, I 453 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 5: knew that I had to find out and I had 454 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 5: to get her side, and I had to help her 455 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 5: because it wasn't fair, Like I felt like I had 456 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 5: ripped the opportunity from her for her telling me the truth, 457 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 5: because I didn't give her a chance, because nobody allowed 458 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 5: me to really get the truth from her. They didn't 459 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 5: let me see what really happened. From that moment on, 460 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 5: I have believed in my mom and I will never 461 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 5: back down again. 462 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: In twenty twelve, Tammy's motion was denied, but by twenty 463 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: twenty she was back in court. 464 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 6: Her story was immediately compelling to me. She was an 465 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 6: immediately compelling person. 466 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: This is Tammy's current lawyer, Brendan Bullard. He came onto 467 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: her case in twenty twenty one. What was compelling about 468 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: her case that made you want to take it for 469 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: you know virtually nothing? 470 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 6: Well, two things. One, the way Tammy told her story 471 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 6: to me. I can't count the number of murder cases 472 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 6: I've handled. At this point, I don't want to think 473 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 6: about it, but it just it did not jibe with 474 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 6: any of my past experiences. It just the state's narrative 475 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 6: what it just didn't seem to fit, especially after talking 476 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 6: to her. 477 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: One of the main pieces of evidence for Tammy's innocence 478 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: is the results of a gunshot residue test. These results 479 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: had actually been presented at the trial. 480 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 7: There was no gunshot residue, I'm sure because typically when 481 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 7: you when you fire a gun, there is microscopic residue 482 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 7: that sort of balloons out or plumes out from around 483 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 7: the gun and it ends up on your hands, it 484 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 7: ends up on your clothes, and. 485 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 6: It can be tested for. 486 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,239 Speaker 7: So there's sort of one piece of forensic evidence that 487 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 7: you would assume should be there if Tammy fired the 488 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 7: shot that is wholly absent. 489 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: And Tammy's new team finally has experts that contraday what 490 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: the state said at Tammy's trial. At that time, doctor Oliver, 491 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: the state's expert, said that there is no dispute that 492 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,959 Speaker 1: the fatal shot in Michael's forehead was from close range. 493 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 8: However, for Tammy to have fired a shot into her 494 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 8: husband's head at the steep angle that doctor Oliver proposed, 495 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 8: he would have to have been lying prone. 496 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 7: She would have to have been holding the rifle at 497 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 7: his head and pointing toward his body. 498 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 6: It's just hard to imagine. 499 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 7: Unless he's unless he's shooting him when he's asleep, and 500 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 7: there's no suggestion that that's the case. 501 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: The post conviction team brought that testimony to a new expert, 502 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: doctor James Downs, who has been a forensic pathologist for 503 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: three decades. Doctor Downes says that the state's expert was 504 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: flat out wrong. The bullet didn't go downward as doctor 505 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: Oliver had contended, but traveled upward into Michael's head. 506 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 2: In doctor Down's. 507 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: Words, quote, it's physically impossible for this injury to happen 508 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: with a rifle at that angle. 509 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 7: But much more plausible and much more physically possible, is 510 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 7: the diagram of Michael holding a shot. 511 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 6: Across his body. 512 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,919 Speaker 7: His arm is long enough to reach the trigger pull 513 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 7: on the Winchester to hold the shot against his head. 514 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 7: And basically, when you look at the undeniable forensic evidence 515 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 7: about the direction of the soot, the location of the 516 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 7: pieces of projectile, and the path of projectile took through 517 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 7: his head. When you trace that, it just seems obvious 518 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 7: because it is more natural, it is more plausible. It 519 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 7: is the explanation that best fits all of the data 520 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 7: without excluding anything. 521 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: And then, in a surprise twist, one of the original 522 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,760 Speaker 1: States experts is now on Tammy's side. Christopher Robinson, formerly 523 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, had testified at the 524 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,399 Speaker 1: trial about the type of gun that was used. He's 525 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,879 Speaker 1: now retired with his own forensic practice, so Tammy's team 526 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: went back to him and asked him to evaluate the evidence, 527 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,280 Speaker 1: something he had never been asked to do for Tammy's case. 528 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 6: When Chris looked at the evidence, he simply could not 529 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 6: avoid the conclusion that it was that it was a 530 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 6: self inflicted shot, and because it was consistent with other 531 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 6: suicides he's handled, and and that's his read on the evidence. 532 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 6: And you know, his is a hard opinion to discount. 533 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 6: He's willing to come in and just say, look, this 534 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 6: is I'm in this because it is wrong, because the 535 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 6: conviction is wrong. And if the GBI had asked me 536 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 6: to look at the case the way I've since been 537 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 6: asked to look at the case, I would have come 538 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 6: to the same conclusion. 539 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: Robinson also suggested that the gun be tested for DNA. 540 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 7: If Tammy fired the shot, she would have had her 541 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 7: hands around the trigger of the gun, around the butt 542 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 7: and the trigger pull and the trigger guard, so she 543 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 7: would have likely deposited skin cells there, so that can 544 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 7: be sampled and determined. And at this point, what we 545 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 7: fully expect DNA testing to show is that her skin 546 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 7: cells are not there. That they might be saying near 547 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 7: the barrel of the gun or on the barrel of 548 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 7: the gun where she she moved it, but they weren't 549 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 7: near the trigger that Michael's and also that Michael's are. 550 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: Tammy's team is currently petitioning for the DNA testing. Between 551 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: the lack of gunshot residue on Tammy or her clothes 552 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: and doctor Down's and Christopher Robinson's testimonies, plus the potential 553 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 1: new DNA evidence, Tammy, her family, and her team are 554 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: hopeful she will be granted a new trial and come home. 555 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,879 Speaker 1: Shannessy says she's ready to have her mom finally back 556 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 1: in her life and to start their relationship over. 557 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,839 Speaker 2: So how is it now amazing? 558 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 5: We talk every day. She's my biggest supporter. 559 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 4: So much. 560 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, she uh she does everything she can to help. 561 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 5: She is seriously the strongest woman I know at this point, 562 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 5: Like she hasn't been through so much and yet she 563 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 5: still sees the positive side of everything. But she she's smart, 564 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 5: she's funny, she's dedicated to her family. She talks to 565 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 5: my kids every day that she calls. And she's in prison. 566 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 5: I can't imagine how how happy I could have been 567 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 5: if she would have been in my life when she 568 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 5: was supposed to be, Like if we would have been 569 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 5: able to talk when I turned eighteen or seventeen or 570 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 5: sixteen even, and she could have told me that I 571 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 5: am like, I am worth it, and I am okay, 572 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 5: and I'm not like anybody else, and she's not like 573 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 5: anybody else. And you can change, you can accept your 574 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,720 Speaker 5: past and then change your future. 575 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: And when her mom does get out, Shannessy's first order 576 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:36,280 Speaker 1: of business. 577 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 5: We're going to dye her hair. That's what she wants. 578 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 5: She wants me to bring a box of hair dye 579 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 5: and die her hair because she's great. Yes, yeah, so, 580 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 5: and then we're going to go to six Flags and 581 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,839 Speaker 5: Lake Winnie and take the kids to Florida, and I'm 582 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 5: going to be able to go on a date with 583 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 5: my fiance because she'll be able to watch my kids 584 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 5: and she'll love it anyway, So it's gonna be amazing. 585 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,959 Speaker 1: So when you get out, Tammy, what's like the first 586 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:09,799 Speaker 1: things you want to do? 587 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 4: Hug all three of my grandchildren? Maybe just be grateful 588 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 4: for every second. Thanks, kiss the outside ground. 589 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: If you want to help Tammy, you can go to 590 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,760 Speaker 1: change dot org and search Tammypool. There's a petition started 591 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 1: by Shannessy for her freedom. Thank you for listening to 592 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to thank Amanda Knox for bringing 593 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 1: Tammy's case to our attention and for joining me on 594 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: the show today. Starting next week, Wrongful Conviction with Maggie 595 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: Freeling is taking a break for a while, but we'll 596 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: be back with season two real soon. In the meantime, 597 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: don't go anywhere. We've still got lots of these stories 598 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: to tell, and you can still catch Wrongful Conviction with 599 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 1: Jason Flamm every Thursday. See you in season two. Thank 600 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. Please 601 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,760 Speaker 1: support your local innocence organizations and go to the links 602 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,359 Speaker 1: in our bio to see how you can help I'd 603 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,840 Speaker 1: like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm and Kevin Wurtis, 604 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: as well as our senior producer Annie Chelsea, researcher Lila Robinson, 605 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: story editor Sonya Paul, with additional production by Jeff Cliburn 606 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,879 Speaker 1: and Connor Hall. The music in this production is by 607 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 1: three time OSCAR nominated. 608 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 2: Composer Jay Ralph. 609 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 610 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at 611 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 612 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me both Instagram 613 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: and Twitter at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling 614 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association 615 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one