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Speaker 1: Hi, Steve Fishman here with a bonus episode. So usually

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Speaker 1: we drop bonus episodes at the end of a show.

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Speaker 1: Today it's a little different. Today's bonus episode is to

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Speaker 1: introduce our next series, which is called Get the Money

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Speaker 1: and Run. It's the fourth season in our Burden Feed

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Speaker 1: and it's a fantastic story. It's about one of the

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Speaker 1: most daring bank robbers of his era. This bank robber

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Speaker 1: did it all disguises, body doubles, leaping counters, card chases,

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Speaker 1: captain mass games with the FBI. For me, it's a

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Speaker 1: kind of perfect show. It's entertaining, its illuminating and also

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Speaker 1: incredibly moving. It drops on the Burden Feed April twenty ninth,

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Speaker 1: and as always for subscribers, it's available early. It drops

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Speaker 1: April twenty second. Subscribers get all episodes all at once

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Speaker 1: and ad free to subscribe. Go to True Crime Clubhouse

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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. To introduce the show, we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk with its creator, Ben Adair. Ben is one of

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Speaker 1: the pod versus most accomplished producers. You've probably listened to

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Speaker 1: one of his shows, among them Lost Hills, Strange Land,

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Speaker 1: Ripple and Pulse. The Untold Story and that's just a

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Speaker 1: few of them. Ben's going to take us through some

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Speaker 1: of the high points of the series, but I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to start with one of my favorite lines from

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Speaker 1: the podcast, and I guess one of the scariest. It's

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Speaker 1: from our bank robber slash star. Ben had just asked

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Speaker 1: him what got him started in the bank robbing business?

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Speaker 2: This was the thing that put me on the path

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Speaker 2: trying to murder my father.

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Speaker 3: Are we rolling? We're going there we go?

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Speaker 1: So how do you end up getting to Joe? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: So I was doing a podcast and this was before

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Speaker 3: podcasting was even really a thing, but I was doing

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Speaker 3: a podcast called first Time, Last Time, where I was

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Speaker 3: interviewing various people about the first times they do different

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Speaker 3: things and the last time they do that same thing.

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Speaker 3: And so I was just thinking to myself, one of

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Speaker 3: the hardest things to do for the first time must

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Speaker 3: be rob a bank, Right, how do you psyche yourself up?

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Speaker 3: How do you do how do you do that for

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Speaker 3: the first time? So I started poking around, you know,

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Speaker 3: doing my research, and at the time that I wanted

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Speaker 3: to do this interview, there were essentially like three people

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Speaker 3: who were out about being bank robbers. One of them

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Speaker 3: was in Oklahoma, and he was a comedian who made

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Speaker 3: us stay end up routines about his life as a

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Speaker 3: bank robber with lots of jokes that were not very funny.

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Speaker 3: The second guy was a guy in Texas, and I

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Speaker 3: talked to that guy and I got the distinct feeling

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Speaker 3: as I was talking to him that he wasn't quite

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Speaker 3: done being a bank robber yet, and so the whole

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Speaker 3: idea of doing it for the first time you're doing

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Speaker 3: it for the last time didn't really work with him.

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Speaker 3: And then I found Joe's memoir and so I just

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Speaker 3: wrote him on Facebook and I was like, hey, I

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Speaker 3: would love to interview you. We met app in Oakland

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Speaker 3: and I interviewed him and the story was better than

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Speaker 3: I could have hoped for.

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Speaker 1: You must have thought when you heard him talk and

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Speaker 1: tell stories, you was that, oh my god, this guy

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Speaker 1: is amazing. What a gift.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean as a storyteller myself, Like you know,

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Speaker 3: we see each other and it's like, hey, I recognize.

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Speaker 3: I recognize how unique you are for sure. And I

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Speaker 3: had that from the moment I met Joe. Yeah, he's

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Speaker 3: an extremely unique guy.

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Speaker 1: Joe is definitely a uniquely talented storyteller, the kind who

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Speaker 1: can take us inside inside a bank robbery and inside

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Speaker 1: his mind, and that mind ranges far and wide. In

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Speaker 1: this podcast, I will say that my experience of it is, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's overwhelming violence, sadness, tragedy. There's also a lot of hilarity.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of fun in this podcast. Here's one example.

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Speaker 1: In this one, Joe is out on bail for one

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Speaker 1: set of robberies. He's not going to stop robbing, though,

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Speaker 1: but he wants to be careful, so he decides to

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Speaker 1: recruit someone to rob banks for him.

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Speaker 2: I go to this guy and say, hey, listen, I'll

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Speaker 2: teach you how to do this and we'll split the money.

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Speaker 2: He says, really, I said yeah, but you have to

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Speaker 2: do it exactly as I say. He's like sure, because he's,

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Speaker 2: like I said, he had seen the loads of cash

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Speaker 2: I had, so to him, he's thinking thirty forty fifty

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars he could be his. So I take him

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Speaker 2: to this mall where they have a bank in the

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Speaker 2: mall my park. He goes inside. Whatever lame thing he's

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Speaker 2: putting out, people are picking it up. Apparently he was

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Speaker 2: good enough to at least get some money from them,

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Speaker 2: because as soon as he hits that door, he's still

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Speaker 2: holding the money in his hands, and he's holding it

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Speaker 2: to his chest. And when he pushes that door open,

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Speaker 2: an eddie of air catches that money. The money goes

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Speaker 2: flying everywhere, whirling in the air, and there's him trying

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Speaker 2: to catch it out of mid air, and I look

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Speaker 2: at him, I'm thinking, what a fucking idiot.

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Speaker 3: I think Joe has made a I mean, Joe has

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Speaker 3: made a whole life of laughing at himself, you know.

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Speaker 3: And it comes from the fact that he did so

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Speaker 3: many terrible things over the course of his life that

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Speaker 3: he just can't take himself seriously anymore, because to do

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Speaker 3: so would almost be tragic.

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Speaker 1: So let's go back to Ben's initial interest. How does

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Speaker 1: a person like Joe Layer, a person who had an

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Speaker 1: honest job at a restaurant, start robbing banks.

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Speaker 3: He describes really well sort of what went into it

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Speaker 3: for him, and how he would have to psych himself

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Speaker 3: up by remembering all these traumas that occurred over the

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Speaker 3: course of his life, at the hands of his dad,

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Speaker 3: at the hands of people who went to school with,

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Speaker 3: at the hands of other criminals. And it was those

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Speaker 3: traumas that he would pull out, he says, like religious

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Speaker 3: medallions and just rub them as he's walking to these banks.

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Speaker 3: And he raged would come inside of him. And that's

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Speaker 3: how he had the presence to really get people to

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Speaker 3: do what he wanted to get them to hand over money.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's all fun and games and the retelling.

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Speaker 3: And Joe is a he's a great storyteller. I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's just his career now, he's a storyteller.

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Speaker 1: This is Joe's first bank robbery.

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Speaker 4: And as I walk up there, I slide the note,

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Speaker 4: or she puts it. I put it down on the

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Speaker 4: table and slided to her. She looks down at it,

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Speaker 4: and she reads it and reads it and reads, has

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Speaker 4: plenty of time to have read it, turned it over,

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Speaker 4: copied it, turned it back over, read it again, like

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Speaker 4: too long. So I reached forward and I realized I

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Speaker 4: got to get her attention. So I grabbed a note

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Speaker 4: and I moved around a little bit, like hey, let's

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Speaker 4: do something about this.

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Speaker 1: And she still.

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Speaker 2: Won't look up.

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Speaker 4: So I had to pull the note away from her

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Speaker 4: because I realized, oh shit, I've given her something to

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Speaker 4: distract her. She does not want to look up. And

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Speaker 4: she doesn't have to look up. So I tried to

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Speaker 4: pull the note back, and she tries to pull the

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Speaker 4: note to her, and when she's pulling the note, we're

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Speaker 4: doing this little bullshit tug of war. Now I'm just

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Speaker 4: fucking pissed. So I leaned forward and say, I'm not

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Speaker 4: fucking around. I'll jump the counter. And I reached down

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Speaker 4: like I got a gun, and I pat my waistband

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Speaker 4: like I'm coming over. I will fuck you up for

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Speaker 4: this bullshit stuff. And it was in that moment she

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Speaker 4: looks up and just with my eyes I menace her.

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Speaker 4: And then when she looked at me, she saw I

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Speaker 4: was serious. She opened her drawer and just gave me

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Speaker 4: the money.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that's really interesting for me about

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Speaker 1: this is the interiority of this bank robber, the person

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Speaker 1: of this bank Robert, his kind of internal journey.

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Speaker 3: I mean, look, I've made a lot of true crime

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Speaker 3: podcasts in my career from a lot of different angles,

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Speaker 3: and to me, I'm always most interested in sort of

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Speaker 3: the why of the crimes, even more so than the

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Speaker 3: who or the you know, who's the victim, who's the perpetrator,

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Speaker 3: It's the why do these things happen, and to me

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Speaker 3: getting into Joe's story, you know, there are some good guys,

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Speaker 3: there are some bad guys. Joe's definitely like a very

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Speaker 3: compelling anti hero. His dad is also a bad guy,

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Speaker 3: and so the nature of Joe's relationship to the story,

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Speaker 3: I think, changes flip flops in a few different ways.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things as I was making it

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Speaker 3: that I wanted to be very clear with the audience

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Speaker 3: about was that there's a lot of ambiguity, you know,

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Speaker 3: And so we structured it so that in some episodes,

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Speaker 3: you're feeling really great about Joe, and you're feeling that

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Speaker 3: he's a victim, and your feeling that he deserves all

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Speaker 3: of your sympathy.

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Speaker 1: One of the points at which Joe deserves our sympathy

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Speaker 1: is when he looks on as his father beats his

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Speaker 1: younger brother. Joe is fifteen in this story.

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Speaker 2: It is the worst memory of my life, and I

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Speaker 2: remember that night thinking I want to die. I just

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Speaker 2: want to die one because I had always been this

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Speaker 2: brave kid who protected my brother, and that day I

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Speaker 2: could not do. And I was haunted by my brother's

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Speaker 2: face of water coming out of his nose and his

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Speaker 2: eyes a supplication, looking at me like just terrified, and

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Speaker 2: I wanted to die. I wanted it was seriously like suicides.

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Speaker 2: Take me, Jesus christ Man. I don't want to even

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Speaker 2: be here. I cannot live with my cowardice. I confronted

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Speaker 2: cowardice that day. And here's the thing. I was smart.

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Speaker 2: I was intense. I had this aggression, and I felt

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Speaker 2: my heart was big and muscular, and even though I

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Speaker 2: was getting beat down, I felt like I was made

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Speaker 2: to be bigger than this.

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Speaker 3: And in other episodes, you really hear him as a perpetrator,

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Speaker 3: as somebody who's victimizing, as somebody who is not anyone

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Speaker 3: that you would ever want to spend any time with.

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Speaker 3: And so playing with that idea of is Joe a

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Speaker 3: good guy? Is he a bad guy? Let's really get

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Speaker 3: into the complicated reasons for how somebody becomes a bank robber,

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Speaker 3: an evil person, how somebody becomes a monster.

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Speaker 1: A monster who can commit murder when you kill somebody,

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Speaker 1: And for a moment I thought my dad was dead.

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Speaker 2: I killed him. That was a different power. When you

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Speaker 2: do that, and you talk to me, you prison talk

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Speaker 2: to people who kill people. And I had friends whould say,

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Speaker 2: you know the the only thing stopping that man from

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Speaker 2: being dead right now, and I say no one they

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Speaker 2: would say, my decision. And to be a man who

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Speaker 2: that's true to like, you know, the only thing that

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Speaker 2: I'm like sitting here looking here and say, you have

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Speaker 2: no clue, but the reason your life is because right

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Speaker 2: now I choose to not kill you. That's a powerful

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Speaker 2: way to move in the world. For a moment, I

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Speaker 2: could feel that, Oh man, I'm the kind of guy

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Speaker 2: who now can just say you you're done. You I

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Speaker 2: let you live longer you you're done.

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Speaker 5: You know that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: What do you think he would have been like to

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Speaker 1: meet back in his bank robbing days?

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Speaker 3: You know, I've thought about that a lot. It's it's

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Speaker 3: an interesting question because Joe is not like thugged out

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Speaker 3: Jolo from East Los Angeles. He was a nerdy kid.

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Speaker 3: He ran track, He dressed in like golf clothes a lot.

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Speaker 3: He played a lot of golf when he was robbing banks.

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Speaker 3: So he's not the kind of guy who you would

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Speaker 3: meet on the street and you know, be intimidated or

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Speaker 3: not make eye contact with or go to the other

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Speaker 3: side of the street. You would walk right by him.

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Speaker 3: I think he looked like a normal person, but he

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Speaker 3: did have those two modes, right, He had his normal

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Speaker 3: guy mode and then he had his his rage mode.

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Speaker 3: And I think Joe when he was raging, when he

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Speaker 3: was able to become Joe the bank robber, and I

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Speaker 3: think Joe in prison very similarly. I think would be very,

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Speaker 3: very scary to meet on the street.

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Speaker 1: Talking about that rage I found. I found that persona

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Speaker 1: of Joe just captivating. Uh. In part it's the actual

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Speaker 1: thing of it. In part it's the way he talked

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Speaker 1: about it. It brought out in him a kind of poetry,

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Speaker 1: spoken word poetry that I found irresistible.

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Speaker 4: The animosity, the negativity. That stuff, It crackles differently, It

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Speaker 4: changes the molecules differently. Yeah, rearranges you and gives you power.

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Speaker 4: And I was getting stronger, I was not getting weaker.

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Speaker 4: I was getting demented with a very powerful rage. And

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Speaker 4: that's what eventually would come out.

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Speaker 1: That's a wild image. It's like some kind of superhero,

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Speaker 1: the Hulk, or somebody who's kind of shedding one persona

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Speaker 1: one shell and suddenly becomes this using the word demented,

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Speaker 1: give me your reaction to that, because trying to murder

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Speaker 1: his father, unbelievably dramatic thing to say, dramatic thing to do.

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Speaker 1: And my read of him is that it changes his life,

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Speaker 1: oh at that moment one hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: And I think Joe even when he was doing it,

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Speaker 3: but when he describes it, it's very Shakespearean in the storytelling,

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Speaker 3: and I think even as he was doing it, he

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00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,800
Speaker 3: realized that this was the stuff of Shakespeare. But it's

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Speaker 3: a pivotal moment in the story because it's the moment

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Speaker 3: where Joe goes from being a victim to being a victimizer.

250
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Speaker 3: And we had numerous conversations as we were recording this

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Speaker 3: podcast together, and I will say the one the one

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Speaker 3: category of people that Joe has ultimate I don't know

253
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Speaker 3: if respects the right word, but certainly strong feelings about

254
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Speaker 3: are murderers he would encounter, murderers in prison, and murderers

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Speaker 3: people who have taken another person's life are now capable

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Speaker 3: of taking anyone's life. And so they have this ultimate

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Speaker 3: power because everyone around them is still alive, because they're

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Speaker 3: allowing them to still be alive. And so when Joe

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00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,240
Speaker 3: for those hours that you know, after he was arrested,

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Speaker 3: there were several hours where he thought that he was

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Speaker 3: a murderer, and that changed everything for him. A switch

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00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,680
Speaker 3: had been flipped in his head so that he was

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00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:44,200
Speaker 3: no longer somebody who would take being a victim. Now

264
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Speaker 3: he was the bully. He was the victimizer. He was

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Speaker 3: the one who was going to be able to go out,

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Speaker 3: and he was the one who was going to be

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Speaker 3: able to go out and express his will in any

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Speaker 3: way that he wanted.

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Speaker 1: And he liked that.

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Speaker 3: It felt good, it felt powerful, Yeah, it felt like

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Speaker 3: it felt like he was his life was on a

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Speaker 3: different trajectory. There are lots of people who become victims

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Speaker 3: and completely knuckle under and they just kind of collapse

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Speaker 3: under the tragedies that are happening to them. Joe, I think,

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Speaker 3: is a different kind of person. Joe is somebody who

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Speaker 3: would have feelings about what was happening to them, and

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Speaker 3: those feelings would propel him right, so he wouldn't feel

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Speaker 3: like he couldn't do anything. He would feel as though

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00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,240
Speaker 3: there was an anger building inside of him that would

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Speaker 3: eventually be, for lack of a better word, be useful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, all right, So a couple more things to cover.

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Speaker 1: Just a word about bank robberies. You having immersed yourself

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Speaker 1: in this storyline and in Joe. It just strikes me

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Speaker 1: that the nineteen eighties were a pretty good error to

285
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Speaker 1: be a bank robber. You go in, you write a

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Speaker 1: note on a deposit slip, and you walk out with

287
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Speaker 1: five thousand dollars.

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Speaker 3: Really, maybe what you're cottoning to a little bit is

289
00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,800
Speaker 3: in the eighties and nineties there was this like the

290
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,280
Speaker 3: technology hadn't quite caught up, but the amounts of cash

291
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,200
Speaker 3: that were going in and out of the banks had

292
00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,680
Speaker 3: risen dramatically since previous eras, Like, you know, people didn't

293
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,159
Speaker 3: go in wanting five ten thousand dollars in cash up

294
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Speaker 3: until probably the late eighties early nineties, right, and the

295
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,600
Speaker 3: technology was still what it was. There wasn't a lot

296
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Speaker 3: of high tech surveillance, There wasn't a lot of like

297
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,720
Speaker 3: GPS tracking all that sort of stuff. So yeah, I

298
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,399
Speaker 3: think there was kind of maybe a I don't know

299
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Speaker 3: if it's a golden age, maybe a plastic age of

300
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Speaker 3: bank robbing that was happening in the eighties and nineties.

301
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Speaker 3: You know. The thing one of the things that really

302
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,600
Speaker 3: like amazed me as I was talking with Joe, you know,

303
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,399
Speaker 3: he talks about how he was a petty criminal, and

304
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,719
Speaker 3: now he was going to become a bank robber, and

305
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,920
Speaker 3: that meant that all the other criminals, you know people

306
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,359
Speaker 3: are he was finally going to get some respect being

307
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Speaker 3: a criminal.

308
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,640
Speaker 1: Did you have a favorite bank robbery story that he told,

309
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:16,680
Speaker 1: because he tells a lot.

310
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Speaker 3: My favorite one, like the first one, is an amazing

311
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,320
Speaker 3: story where he actually goes and tries, you know, he

312
00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:25,120
Speaker 3: works all day to get his nerve up to rob

313
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Speaker 3: this bank.

314
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Speaker 4: What I do remember about the day is this. I

315
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:39,199
Speaker 4: started ten. I walked into the first bank and I

316
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:45,560
Speaker 4: grab a slip and I write, we have a bomb,

317
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,719
Speaker 4: just a bank rubbery, and I wrote a bank robber note.

318
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Speaker 4: And then I'm like, ah, fuck it, I don't want

319
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Speaker 4: to do this year. For some reason, this doesn't feel right.

320
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:57,720
Speaker 4: I start walking away, and as I walked away, there's

321
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Speaker 4: like three cameras that me at the door, and I realized,

322
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,440
Speaker 4: think I could have been busted. Right if anyone just

323
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,239
Speaker 4: kind of like you know, zoomed in the guy who

324
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 4: was writing something on the back of that slip, they

325
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:10,960
Speaker 4: could have seen I was trying to rob that bank.

326
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Speaker 4: So I wrote my next one next note at McDonald's.

327
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,359
Speaker 4: I just wrote it there and I would walk in

328
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Speaker 4: the banks and I would leave them all day long.

329
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Speaker 4: You know, Like I would walk in and I would

330
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Speaker 4: stand in line, go a couple of steps up, a

331
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:28,880
Speaker 4: couple of customers would be going and I'd like, nah

332
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Speaker 4: that I don't got a feel for this. I'd walk in,

333
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,639
Speaker 4: I'd see, you know, guard some nah. God, I swear

334
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,320
Speaker 4: to God man, I probably nibbled a little bit of

335
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,480
Speaker 4: food from every fast food joint available at the time, KFC, Wendy's.

336
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,199
Speaker 4: If this was a short film, it would be a

337
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 4: comic film because you would see me going in, Okay,

338
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Speaker 4: I'm gonna do it.

339
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 3: I'm gonna do it.

340
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,160
Speaker 4: And the next thing, we'd see me drinking coffee at McDonald's.

341
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 4: You see me, Okay, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna

342
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 4: be all fucking nervy in there. The next scene, I'm.

343
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Speaker 5: Biting the whopper at.

344
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Speaker 2: Work, Like it would just be okay, let's do it,

345
00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 2: let's do.

346
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,040
Speaker 4: It, Taco Bella do it, let's do it. It was

347
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 4: like it was fucking hilarious.

348
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 3: And he finally does it, and he doesn't even get

349
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,120
Speaker 3: that much money. He thinks there's a lot of money

350
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,440
Speaker 3: at the time, but you know, in the scheme of things,

351
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 3: it's not all that much money. I love that story.

352
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 1: I also love the disguise story where he puts on

353
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,679
Speaker 1: I don't know how many sweatshirts, it's really burly, and

354
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:32,720
Speaker 1: the discards discards the costume. He seems kind of so

355
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 1: slick and quick witted, and it has all those elements

356
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 1: of you know, high jinks and caper and you find

357
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 1: yourself just rooting for the bad guy.

358
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 3: Well, and that one too, that does feel that one

359
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,919
Speaker 3: does feel a little bit like a relic of an

360
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 3: earlier time, the idea that you could just like wear

361
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 3: a disguise and get away with it, and then it

362
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 3: works in a weird way. It's just like, yeah, it's amazing.

363
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,639
Speaker 1: The one of the things that I noticed, and I

364
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 1: think it's true, is that as we kind of go

365
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 1: along with Joe and he develops into bank robbery kind

366
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 1: of in front of our eyes or ears, is there's

367
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,639
Speaker 1: a change in him and his personality. He knows that

368
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,880
Speaker 1: Cortis the FBI agent, is closing in on him. He's

369
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 1: actually already been arrested, he's out on bail, and he

370
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:34,120
Speaker 1: goes on us a robbing spree. So what I believe

371
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 1: is that there was something kind of taking over Joe.

372
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,239
Speaker 1: He was getting manic, he was getting obsessed, he was

373
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Speaker 1: kind of getting out of control and maybe even self

374
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Speaker 1: destructive in that way.

375
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Speaker 3: I think he had become so twisted by his actions

376
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:57,360
Speaker 3: at that point that he had become untethered from everyone

377
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 3: else around him, and even more untethered from a morality

378
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 3: that kind of had governed his regular life, even while

379
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,360
Speaker 3: he would have this double life as a bank robber.

380
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,479
Speaker 3: And so when he gets or when he has arrested

381
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 3: for robbing banks, his aunt puts her house up to

382
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 3: get him out of jail, and he says very clearly

383
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 3: that he was going to burn her and she was

384
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,880
Speaker 3: going to lose her home, and he didn't care.

385
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 2: I figure out, you know what, I'm not going to

386
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 2: go to prison, and this is where me. I was

387
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,679
Speaker 2: already in an asshole. I was just really bad. I

388
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 2: was a bad boyfriend, I was a bad person in society.

389
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 2: It was just a thief. It was kind of shit.

390
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 2: And I decided, like up my shit game by putting

391
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 2: my aunt's house in jeopardy because my aunt putor house

392
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 2: up for me to go on bayl my aunt and

393
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,640
Speaker 2: she loved me and I was willing to risk it all.

394
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 3: I didn't care, so he did it. It was quite

395
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 3: a spree, you know. He puts it as thirty or

396
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 3: thirty plus banks. He doesn't even remember how many banks,

397
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 3: but he puts it at thirty plus over I want

398
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 3: to say, eleven or fifteen months. Something like that. Wouldn't

399
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 3: surprise me if it was, you know, a quarter million dollars.

400
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: There was a lot. Joe's father huge figure in his life,

401
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 1: as is his brother. But Joe's father, it's not giving

402
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 1: too much away to say that his father is a

403
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 1: violent man, and for me, in this story, that forms

404
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 1: and deforms Joe.

405
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 3: I mean, Joe would not have been who he was

406
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 3: without losing his mother and then relying on his father.

407
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 3: I think after Joe's mom died, his dad became unhinged.

408
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 3: It gets to the point where a confrontation is just

409
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 3: absolutely inevitable. Was somebody was going to get very badly

410
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 3: hurt or killed, I have no doubt about that. And

411
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 3: the reason that it went down the way that it

412
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 3: did has only to do with the fact that I think,

413
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 3: like his dad, Joe is very strong willed and is

414
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 3: a survivor, and so when faced with what he thought

415
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 3: was a life threatening circumstance. He was not going to

416
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 3: knuckle under. He was going to fight back. And what

417
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 3: that what that ultimately revealed to Joe was a new

418
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 3: sense of power, a new sense of what he was

419
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 3: capable of. Joe changed irrevocably, and his life was sent

420
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 3: on an entirely new path.

421
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 4: I stand up and I look at him, and he's like,

422
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 4: oh shit, and then he like puts the weight down,

423
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 4: and you know, I'm holding a steak knife, but I'm

424
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 4: only holding and then he like starts walking to me slowly,

425
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 4: so he put it down, put it out, or give

426
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 4: me the knife, give me a knife. I'm like, fuck that,

427
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 4: I'm not going to just do the knife. I know

428
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 4: I have wanted this move right here. I run him,

429
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 4: charging him, put the armor, go to attack.

430
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 2: Him, and I believe I'm trying to kill him and

431
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:23,959
Speaker 2: he's gonna die, and I'm fucking a beast in this moment.

432
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 1: M Yeah, tell me about Paul. Paul is Joe's younger

433
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: brother by about eighteen months. They're very close. Well, I'll

434
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: let you tell about the relationship, but the other thing

435
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: to tell about it is how incredibly candid Paul is

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00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: and to me how heartbreaking he is in his candor.

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00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 3: I mean, the dynamic between Paul and Joe, as they

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00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 3: both tell it when they were growing up, is that

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00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 3: Joe protected Paul. Paul was weaker. Paul was more of

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00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 3: a victim, and Paul never stood up to whatever was

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00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 3: going to happen to him.

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00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: Here's a moment where Paul is a victim. It plays

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00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: out brutally for Paul, and it also reveals something about Joe.

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00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 2: And he punched my brother in the rib in the

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00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 2: back of the ribs, grabs my brother, but pounces on him,

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00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: grabs by the back of the herd, starts dunking his

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00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 2: head in the soapy dishwater.

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00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 5: He stuck my head under the hot water, the scalding water,

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00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 5: and Joe was sitting there rinsing the dishes, and he

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00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 5: was just a Paul at what it was a kreem.

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00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 2: And I'm paralyzed with fear, holding the plate, looking at him,

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00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 2: scared to death, right.

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00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 5: Because my dad started putting my face into the water.

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00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 5: And what I did was just automatically turned my head.

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00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 5: And when I turned my head, I think I turned

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00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 5: my head to Joe, so our eyes met and for

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00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 5: a split second there, Joe could see the fear, and

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00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 5: it was one of those just one of those really

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00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 5: poignant times in my life where I just had eye

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00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 5: contact with Joe and Joe knew that I was afraid

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00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 5: and Joe couldn't protect me.

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00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 3: What's amazing to me about Joe's journey is how at

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00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 3: the end it is a story of hope. And I

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00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 3: think he's an amazing protagonist in his own story because

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00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 3: he has been able to have a kind of philosophical

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00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 3: distance from what's happened to him and a very unique

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00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 3: ability to look at his life and change it. You know,

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00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 3: there are multiple times in this story where he changes

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00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 3: the trajectory of his life, he changes the path that

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00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 3: he's on, and that is something that is extremely unique.

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00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 3: I have not met many, many people at all who

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00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 3: have the kind of will to do that. One of

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00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 3: the things that's great about this story, and that I'm

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00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 3: grateful for you, Steve, for giving the platform for it.

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00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 3: Get the Money and Run is a much tighter, much

476
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 3: more compact, much more clear distillation of Joe's story, so

477
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 3: that it goes from hopelessness to hope a lot more quickly.

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00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 3: So I think listeners will have a much more enjoyable

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00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 3: time listening to it. If it's if it does get

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00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 3: it's too sad, just hold on a few minutes. It'll

481
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 3: get really fun.

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00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: All right then, thanks so much.

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00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you Steve.

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00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: Now hopefully I have recorded this on my hand.

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00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's still running, all right,