WEBVTT - Why We Hate Pt. 1 (Dr. Ibram X. Kendi recap) 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:02.960 Hey, y'all. Hey, what's up? And welcome the Les Red 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.640 Table that I'm Tracy t Brow and I'm Cara Pressley. 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:09.159 How are you feeling a day? Tracy? Do you know 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:12.319 how I'm feeling? Cara, I'm feeling every day amazing. And 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:15.440 I know you're feeling successful. Of course I had a 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:19.240 feeling you might be feeling every day amazing, just the thought. 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:22.400 But yeah, yeah, I'm definitely feeling successful. Glad to be 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:27.480 back today. Oh my goodness, yes, today's episode. Okay, mm 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:33.040 hmm listen, heavy heavy. We have great guests though, we do, 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:37.680 Oh my gosh, amazing. They're doing some phenomenal work. But 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.560 when I say heavy and deep, okay, heavy and deep 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:44.839 was this episode? So how did you feel about that episode? 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:47.760 Before we even talk to the guests, Oh my gosh, 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:52.720 so much to unpack for me. Ka, it was really 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:57.560 about fear, trauma, and pain. I think all three of 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:03.520 those things dry life. Hey, Because we don't know how 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:10.880 to process pain, fear, and trauma. It's easier, I think 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:14.000 for us to to shift it into hate. All right, 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:17.480 just let it kind of summer if you will. I 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:20.839 feel like they're limiting beliefs. Are would hinder us. People 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:22.680 just know what they know and how they grew up. 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.520 They don't want to hear any other perspective or even 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.560 want to consider the impacts on others. So I think 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:32.480 that's the biggest part of it. We definitely saw it 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.200 in this episode. I am glad that they got to 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:37.400 get someone who was reformed to come to the table. 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:39.880 I can't say that's how person would always be welcome 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:42.120 at the table, right. You know what? I would like 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.760 to allow myself the luxury of believing that I have 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:51.960 evolved enough, despite the fact that I gave full side 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:56.160 eye and hell to the no faces during the episode. 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:58.960 You are a gam two point oh for real? Go 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:02.960 and let y'all know that now Heysey's faces straight gam 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.240 this whole episode. Let me say this, it's difficult and 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:08.920 as heavy and deep as this episode was, it was 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:13.679 also relevant and necessary. We need to talk more about this, 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:18.399 especially now that there is so much happening in our 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:21.960 country and there's so much going on with regard to 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:27.320 race relations, education awareness. We need to have these kind 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:30.480 of conversations with groups of people that we can trust 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:32.840 and groups of people that we can learn from, and 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:36.359 then we can unlearn with Hello. Yeah, that's a key one. 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:38.799 I like that you've gotten to hear how we feel. 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:41.680 But now don't you think it's time to hear what 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:44.840 your Red Table Talk community has to say? Tracy, Yes, 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:49.000 I do. We asked our community, how do you keep 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:53.280 your personal biases in check? And here are some of 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.680 your answers. Kin start us off with our good old 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.280 memphisis to friends friends. Jent Tom says, I up to 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.520 tell myself there are different strokes for different folks, and 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:08.400 everything ain't for everybody. Man. That's the way to think 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.000 about it. That is a real good, happy neutral You 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.200 just say, sure, what works for you. If you're a 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:17.640 consenting adult, go forward, not to stamp out. It's a 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:22.320 process that begins with awareness and recognition. I'm a work 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:26.760 in progress, Betty Rufel mayor, thank you for that. That's good. 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:30.440 That's also wise. Those are sage words. I'm work in progress. 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:35.640 Give yourself some brevity, Zola right More Walker says, I 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.960 remind myself of the beauty of diversity. I'm glad she's 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.960 able to find beauty and diversity. Yeah, I love that 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:49.400 she gets it and Brown Betty. Betty said, we're all 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:52.520 biased and sometimes that's okay. I'm allowed to help a 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:55.240 single mom over a married one because I identify with 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:59.480 single motherhood. I just asked myself why I feel like 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:03.080 I feel If the reason is me projecting some trauma, 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:07.640 I turned my attention to the trauma, literally, just mirroring 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:10.480 what I said. Right, It's about you identifying what is 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:14.000 going on with yourself. Why do I feel that way? 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.160 You have to tap in. If you don't tap in, 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:18.480 then you're only gonna be concerned with what's on the outside, 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:20.680 and you need to tap out. If you don't tap in, 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:23.120 tap out, tap tap in. I'd like to play the 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:29.000 Sweetie song. Let's go to this break. We're going to 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:31.000 take a quick break, but when we get back, we'll 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:38.760 be joined by two guests from our Red Table Talk community. 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.720 I love that we have guests on our fantastic podcast. Cara. 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:50.919 Dr Susan Glistens the president and founder of the Glistened Group, 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:55.640 a racial reconciliation and community building program based in Mississippi, 0:04:55.680 --> 0:05:00.080 a state notorious for racial violence. Here, Susan used as 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.320 an approach she calls the Welcome Table to facilitate community 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:07.400 driven dialogue and informed action in the communities that welcome her. 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:11.240 Her work fights for empathy, healing, and equity as the 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:15.040 remedy to white supremacy. Thank you for joining us um 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:18.480 Let's Red Table that Dr Susan so happy to be here, 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:20.720 Such an honor, happy to be with all of you. Yes, 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:23.960 I'm calling you my sister from a different mr. You 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.160 know that I love it. I love it and it's 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:30.560 an honor right right. Ernest Crumb the Third is a 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:35.080 self proclaimed black history advocate joining us from Chicago. Have 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:39.599 great Pizza right. He works as a high school history 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:43.240 teacher and an online educator for all. Ernest is at 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:45.640 the Virtual Red Table to tell us about his book 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.320 Black History Saved My Life, which he wrote in after 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.600 he and his wife experienced the hate crime that went viral. 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.360 He shares this story to teach the important role black 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:58.440 history plays and culture today, and he continues to use 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:02.440 his platform to teach true black history on social media. 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:04.880 I love that we know you've guessed it on Gammies 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:08.560 podcast positively gam a little while back, and we're happy 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:11.839 and glad and appreciate you for joining us as well 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.200 on less Red Table that the Red Table Talk family 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:17.359 is amazing, So thank you for coming to join us. 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:28.599 Thanks for having me, Thank you, Welcome, Welcome. This is 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:30.760 the part of the show where we reveal which moments 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:34.240 made us pause, I mean, rewind, turn heads and say, 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:36.840 let me listen to that again. Waiting, wait, wait what? 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:41.360 Wait what? Right? So, Susan and Ernest, let's kick it off. 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:44.640 Were there any moments that made you say wait what? 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:48.040 During the episode? You know? For me and I took notes. 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:51.080 I took copious notes actually on the educator by trading 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:57.479 no surprise there, Mr Academia, So I have the mirror 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.680 what I expect from my students, and I did a lot, 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:02.680 And I think the main thing that stood out to 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:07.040 me was when they started talking about what drives white 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:10.200 males to engage in this type of racist violence. There's 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:13.760 kind of this white male entitlement to what I've owed 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.160 in this world. I expect to have a girlfriend and 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.679 be wealthy and be respected or have resources, and so 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:24.160 when I don't get those things, my anger and rage 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:28.720 is very intense. There's always been something that I've wondered. 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.480 And again, being from Chicago, we often hear the tropes 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:34.040 about black men in the city with gang violence, so 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:37.239 there's a stark difference between the gang violence we see 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.520 that often doesn't make its way into the school building, 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.480 versus when white males engage in violence, it often does 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:51.040 in public spaces. And again that is a wait wait wait, 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:55.840 wait what right? Right? And when they said that, I 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:59.119 believe it was Dr Jill. Dr Jillian. She said that 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:02.440 the self hate that they have for themselves or the 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:05.440 depression that they're dealing with, flips to what's wrong with 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:08.640 them as opposed to them doing some type of internal reflection. 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:11.120 And it really made me think about going back to 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:13.760 even what Jeff was talking about, how in a lot 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:16.600 of these spaces they take advantage of those who are 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:19.680 most vulnerable. And I really connected with the part where 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:23.160 he said they were recruiting in Detroit, they were recruiting 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:26.920 in places that were economically impoverished, because that's the same 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:32.960 thing gangs do in the black community. Some mirror mentality, 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.840 is it not? Yeah, that's totally Await what Let me 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:38.160 say this because a couple of times already I've made 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:40.440 the Gammy face. So I want you to know throughout 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:44.640 the episode, let me acknowledge Gammy, you know I love you? Okay, 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:50.640 I made Gammy facial expressions throughout the entire episode, Gammy 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:52.960 and I were mirrors on the facial specially with the 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:56.040 side I turned up lift. It was if words could speak, 0:08:56.240 --> 0:09:04.080 the words would say wrong. The whole episode was yeah, 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:06.480 gah Man Willow were on the same page. Now, Carrol, 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:10.720 which one were you? I work to understand. I'm trying 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:15.480 to understand others, even the main guest who had twenty 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:19.640 seven years of hate right but now he is just reformed. 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.640 In my mind, I want to understand that at the 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:26.440 same time as you say, let that go like that. See, 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:27.880 look at you. You You don't want to forget a man 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:31.040 at all. What I'm saying not that I don't forgive. Okay, 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.760 you can forgive and leave folks along. Okay, you can 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:38.280 forgive and disassociate. Right now, I'm making a little bit 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:42.199 of a stink face. What about you two? Dr Susan Ernest, 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:45.600 how do you rank his deservedness of forgiveness. That's a 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.439 tough one because I noted that he said he didn't 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:50.560 feel like he had the right to ask for forgiveness, 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:54.120 and I really appreciated that because I'm not sure that 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.080 he does. Apologies to the extent that they are effective, 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.360 are usually effective between the person who was the perpetrator 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:01.840 and the person who was a victim. But he not 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.680 only hurt individual people, his program of hate hurt a 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:07.520 lot of us out in the world. How do you 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.319 repair that. I appreciated his courage for coming to the table. 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:13.080 We can't get going to try to change anything if 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.240 we can't come to the table. But yeah, the wait, 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:17.240 what how does it? Why does it take you that long? 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:19.880 Why does it take you? Why you're not You're clearly 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:22.920 not a dumb person. Right. You can read, you can 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:25.080 watch TV, you can hear what people have to say. 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:27.640 It shouldn't take you that long to recognize humanity in 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:32.360 another person. Right. My other question is, like when he 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:34.760 was in his household and decided to change his life around, 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:38.199 did your wife, children just forgive you family members? Did 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.680 they just go along with your change? Did that really 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:44.280 happen like that they just accepted your change because you 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:47.240 preached this for a long time. Yeah, I had the 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:50.360 same sentiment because I dealt with the hate crime face 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:52.960 to face, me and my wife. So I think when 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:56.720 people talk about forgiveness in this situation, it's more so 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:01.000 I don't owe you like me tell you I forgive 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:03.079 you even if I did, but I think oftentimes you 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:06.800 make it a public spectacle. Forgiveness for me is that's 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:10.440 something that you have to deal yourself because you hurt yourself. 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.400 It's spewing out hatred means that you hate something about 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:15.840 yourself to be able to consciously do that as an 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.960 adult too. So for me, if you really want to 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:21.120 be forgiven and I'm not him, I can't say for sure. 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:23.320 He seems to be doing great work, and the fact 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.000 that he made an organization and he's working that's great, 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:28.600 and he has to continue to do that, and it 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:32.760 has to also translate to economic resources, has to translate 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:35.120 to policy because just like you an't say when I 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.360 saw twenty seven years, I'm like, bro like, I've been 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:42.360 actively engaging in learning black history since I was in college, 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.600 and I still have a long way to go, and 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:49.440 I still have to make sure I am not digesting 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.720 these racial tropes and stereotypes that we're all fan. So 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.440 he has a long way to go, and I hope 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:57.360 that he's aware of that. But I do commend him 0:11:57.360 --> 0:11:59.560 for taking that step. But it would have been very 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.280 difficult for me to sit there and not be a 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:06.040 little confrontational about some of the things he did. Do 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:08.720 you think that he deserved to see at the table 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:12.480 with all due respect? I think based on the conversation, yes, 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.200 I think that since it was facilitated by black women, 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.520 who we know the history in this country and for 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:20.880 them to extend that honor, he should have been honored, 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.040 and I think he deserved it. And to me, he 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.880 came across humble, but again, just knowing what he did 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:28.840 and just the experience I've had, it would have been 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:30.720 very difficult. But I think it's important to hear that 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.720 perspective because we have to understand that whether we ignore 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:36.560 these people or not, they're here. I just don't believe 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:39.439 I'm the person to facilitate that. So I commend people 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:42.520 like Dia Darryll Davis. But and I will also say 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:44.960 this about him. I believe that when you have people 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.960 who are that extreme, and I could be wrong, but 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:49.800 I'm just going based on how I feel right now, 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:54.120 I think that it's easier to have them switched their 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:58.360 mindset than someone who unconsciously spews racism and lives in 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.080 this implicit mind's world. If you understand what I'm saying, 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.440 that is all right now, Ernest that's a wait what 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:06.600 We could have a whole conversation about that, and I'm 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:08.640 here for it. I want to hear all about that. 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:10.640 I really do, because I love a good verbal volly. 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:13.400 I gotta get Dr Susan in On here because I 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:17.640 want to hear from your perspective. It's a wonderful dynamic 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:19.920 that we have to have a gift of having a 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.640 black man and a white woman on is our guest 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:26.719 today to talk about this, right because you're both soldiers 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.360 on the same field. Tracy, I appreciate that so much, 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:31.800 and I think Ernest has said it so much better 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.880 than I. But when I encounter situations like this where 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:38.280 there's an opportunity to engage with someone who has harmed others, 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:40.920 my first question is who are the folks that he's 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.120 harmed and what are their thoughts about this? That needs 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:47.439 to guide what we do right Working in the Philadelphia 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:49.520 sipping the show The County, the missisp be burning case, 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:51.440 I needed to know what the black community in the 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.559 show The County thought about in York there and if 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:57.560 their suggestion to me was we're not ready or they're 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.720 not ready, we need to take time, then time we take. 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.840 So the fact that Dia connected with him and in 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.000 some ways kind of vouched for him was moving for me. 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.839 I wanted to know what her thoughts were about having 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:12.760 him at the table and reaching across to him. You 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:16.040 bring up a really interesting point, and I don't know 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.960 that it was really addressed in the episode. If it was, 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.160 feel free to correct me. None of the victims directly 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:26.200 were ever given a voice. We didn't hear that in 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.120 the episode. And it's interesting that you bring up the 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:34.640 point that if the victim isn't ready, then it's not time. 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:38.760 And in DEA's case, even though she was vicariously because 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:41.480 so many of us didn't directly feel it, but as 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:44.480 a result of his efforts and his organizing and his 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:49.720 almost three decades worth of hate, it's a rippled and snowballs, right. 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.960 So we are victims directly and indirectly, but we didn't 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:58.640 have that true representation of someone who said that like you, 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.640 Earnest I Direc actually felt the impact and the ill 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:06.600 effects and the negativity and the direct hate from him, 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:08.960 and so it's just interesting to me. It's why it's 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.560 so important that Ernest is here to share his story 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:15.200 but also to Earnest's point earlier. There's plenty of work 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.280 for folks to do until the person who has been 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:20.520 harmed might be ready. They may never be ready, And 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:22.000 that doesn't mean that you get to sit around and 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:24.480 not do anything right. You have to do the inner work. 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.640 You have to excavate, you have to do some archaeology 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:29.960 on your attitudes, and then, you know what, you gotta 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.000 make some amends. You gotta try to do some things 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.680 the policies, the practices of the procedures. You got to 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:37.400 reach back to some other white folks and bring them 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:39.680 along with you too. You don't get to just sit 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:43.400 and wait while someone is having to do the hard 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.520 work of repairing themselves when they've been harmed. Yeah, that's 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:50.560 good because so often times the burden is kind of 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:55.160 unspokenly put on the oppressed. Right, thank you, that's what 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:56.720 I did to you. You know what you did make 0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:00.000 me feel better about what I did. You know exact 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.200 actually what you've done, And if you don't, I need 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:04.600 you to stop and think about it. I said this 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.280 when we were preparing for this show. Like when they 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.760 ended segregation, who went in and told all the employers 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:14.680 how to actually treat the employees, nobody like y'all made 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.880 it up and and more so acted like nothing really happened. 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.280 So that cognitive dissidence is a problem for me. Living 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.080 in the Capital and Confederacy, a lot of things are 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:27.560 just you don't speak on them. You just don't go 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.720 on that street, you just don't turn that way. There's 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:34.800 so much social conditioning that has happened with the we 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:37.680 can't go on certain streets and we can't say certain things, 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.080 and we were finally giving a voice. It's just I 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:41.920 don't know whether I need to get up and cheer 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.840 or take my headset off and weak that it was 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:52.120 even said, how would you feel sitting at the table 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:56.240 with Jeff I that's hard to say that. I think 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:58.600 the difficulty bigger than just sitting at the table with 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:01.920 him is we're saying that he talked to one person 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:06.320 of color and his entire outlook was forever changed. Is 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.560 that the goal of the protesting and everything we want, 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.760 because then when someone changes, I hear us even in 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.120 this conversation saying, oh no, I doubt it a little 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:18.280 bit understood though, because you do twenty seven years of 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:20.640 a thing. I mean, you're right with your hand for 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:22.560 twenty seven years and then you gotta go to what 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:24.320 your left hand the next day, like, is that just 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.040 is just automatically changed like that, so you don't revert 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:29.600 back at all, You are just completely And I mean, 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.600 if that is the beauty of change, then we would 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.280 like to all have that same grace. Right you would 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:37.159 be able to sit at the table with him, or 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:38.960 you wouldn't. I feel like I'd be able to sit 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.480 at the table with him and listen. But I feel 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:43.200 like there would be a little doubt there as far 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:45.919 as are you even being genuine? Is this a true 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:48.800 change you're having? I think I would question it. Mm 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:51.719 hmm okay, So let me tell you like you earnest, 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.879 I had wait what? Wait what? Wait what? It was 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.679 like a wait what remix in this episode for me, 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:01.200 one of the wait what mom? This was dea story 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:04.160 of a man who enjoyed seeing fear in the eyes 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.360 of a person he meet because he had been fearful 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.520 his entire life. Then he said, I saw something that 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:12.840 I've never seen before, And he said, I loved it, 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:16.040 and I'm going what was it? He said? Fear? Oh, 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:18.760 he said, you know, for me, somebody who was afraid 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:23.280 my entire life. Now somebody else was afraid, ernest you 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.240 go ahead because you touched on it, and just go 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:29.320 and elaborate for us. Yeah, So that revelation by Dea, 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.600 I think that what we have to realize, and I 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:34.879 think somebody touched on this on the episode as well, 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:38.359 is that all of this is deeply rooted in fear 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.600 and hate is just another way that that comes out 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.119 of us when we go back through history and we 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:46.840 think about the system that's being created. The fear is 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.520 that black people are going to take something from white people. 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.800 Fear is that indigenous people were going to take something. 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.760 The fear coming from maybe living in an environment where 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.480 there were a lack of resources during the MIDI period 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:02.520 in eury Board during the plague, and you come over 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:04.359 here and you see what you think is all of 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.399 this opportunity. The fear might be that it's going to 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.080 go away, and we don't often realize how that can 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.080 be talked to people implicitly and care. You brought up 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:16.840 a great point because you're saying, like when segregation comes down, 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.560 and I've always had this thought. We've never we've never 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.680 had a mass movement where we said, Okay, we need 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.120 to flip all the education we need to make sure 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:28.439 we're teaching this instead. It's two thousand and twenty two 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.399 and we're talking about teaching about black history and how 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:34.000 we need to in some ways rephrase it as in 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:39.240 voluntary working or whatever. They were talking about Texas black people. 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:45.440 Did you. I just can't even. I can't even if 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.720 that's a whole another episode, and I hate to even 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:51.760 I really personally, And this might be a way what 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:54.600 I don't necessarily like using white privilege because I don't 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.600 think it's a privilege to be able to benefit from genocide, slavery. 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.679 I think that there's white access as a result of 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:05.680 these things, something that whites can benefit from and again 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:09.280 benefits and quote would be that when you deal with 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:13.840 your hate, like oftentimes you're nurtured in it. Like people 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:15.560 might not want to be punitive with you, they might 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:17.920 want to coddle you. But if I have something hate 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:19.840 because of the environment I grow up being and not 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.840 realizing the hands that put my hood together with redlining, 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:26.040 I have police everywhere and watching everything. I do. So 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.040 want fear and hate to be nurtured. But we never 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:31.480 get that opportunity to figure out why we even have 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:33.680 that feeling, and then a lot of white folks who 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:35.919 have that feeling of they don't understand why they have that. 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:38.200 It's not natural to feel that way, but it's been 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:41.159 nurtured in some way to maintain this hierarchy. And I 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:43.040 believe that once we get to the core of that, 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:45.800 and that also goes again to another weight, what moment 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:49.200 of the exposure to other people at a young age, 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:53.120 it takes away that feeling, that anxiety that you have initially, 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:54.720 so it doesn't have to come later in your life. 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:57.200 But I think there's a larger there's a larger point 0:20:57.240 --> 0:21:00.560 about the intentionality of the socialization process us. Right. There's 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.639 a really great book that's called The Epistemology of Ignorance, 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:08.280 and it is about how white folks are specifically socialized 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:12.159 to have that whiteness and the benefits of power that 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:15.200 come with it be rendered invisible so that you don't 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:17.680 question it, so that you don't question it, and that 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:19.800 black folks and people of color are socialized in the 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:23.200 exact opposite way. To know that in is a society, 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:26.159 this hierarchical society, you are in a particular position and 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:28.399 you're supposed to stay there. You're not supposed to step 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:32.080 outside of it, right. I've always said that they've been 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:35.880 conditioned to ignore that. It's not that you don't see 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:38.240 it because there's a great phrase, I'll believe it when 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.360 I see it, But the opposite is actually true, I'll 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:45.760 see it when I believe it, which goes back though, 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:48.480 card to what you were saying about their certain streets 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:51.120 you couldn't turn on. There's certain things you couldn't say. 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:55.080 It literally is a it's a mind f right, my 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.720