WEBVTT - Down the Drain 0:00:08.245 --> 0:00:14.405 School of Humans. On May twenty fourth, twenty eighteen, police 0:00:14.445 --> 0:00:18.565 went back and did another search of Shalamont Park. That's 0:00:18.565 --> 0:00:22.685 when they found Ebby's body. Now, for the first time, 0:00:22.965 --> 0:00:27.725 there was a crime scene. I remember back in twenty eighteen, 0:00:28.405 --> 0:00:31.125 I was driving between Little Rock and the Ozarks and 0:00:31.165 --> 0:00:33.965 I was deep into my investigation of Rebecca Gould's case, 0:00:34.365 --> 0:00:36.845 the case we covered in the first season of this podcast. 0:00:37.885 --> 0:00:40.765 Like everyone else in the state of Arkansas, I had 0:00:40.805 --> 0:00:43.925 heard about Ebbie's case when it happened. When I saw 0:00:44.005 --> 0:00:46.965 in the news that her remains were found, I remember 0:00:47.085 --> 0:00:51.005 feeling not exactly happy, but I definitely felt hopeful for 0:00:51.045 --> 0:00:56.205 her family. I thought, maybe now the investigation can stop 0:00:56.245 --> 0:00:58.965 being such a wild goose chase and they can finally 0:00:58.965 --> 0:01:03.645 get some answers and some justice. But since Ebbie's body 0:01:03.725 --> 0:01:08.525 was found, there have been major developments. It's twenty twenty 0:01:08.525 --> 0:01:14.685 two now. Officially this is still an open and active investigation. Unofficially, 0:01:15.205 --> 0:01:19.085 the case appears to have gone stone cold. We're still 0:01:19.125 --> 0:01:22.205 stuck in the same cycle, hearing the same rumors and 0:01:22.245 --> 0:01:25.085 the same narrative that we were hearing back in twenty fifteen, 0:01:25.885 --> 0:01:28.565 that there are multiple people of interest that no one 0:01:28.645 --> 0:01:31.045 has been ruled out and no one has been ruled in. 0:01:32.005 --> 0:01:36.445 This has been extremely frustrating for Ebby's family. Why are 0:01:36.485 --> 0:01:39.085 they on the radar? Don't just say on the radar? 0:01:39.245 --> 0:01:43.885 Why are they still on there? Once again, I have 0:01:43.925 --> 0:01:46.645 some people telling me to leave things up to law enforcement, 0:01:47.325 --> 0:01:50.525 and I know from experience that once you start digging 0:01:50.565 --> 0:01:54.525 up dark secrets, life can get messy and complicated for 0:01:54.565 --> 0:01:57.805 a lot of people. But I also know from experience 0:01:57.885 --> 0:02:01.485 that sometimes digging is the only way to get answers 0:02:01.845 --> 0:02:06.405 and justice. It's time to stir things up. I'm Catherine Townsend. 0:02:06.925 --> 0:02:38.925 This is hell and Gone. Mike and I have been 0:02:38.965 --> 0:02:41.245 a Little Rock for a couple of days, and we're 0:02:41.285 --> 0:02:45.005 trying to get information about an open case. I've talked 0:02:45.045 --> 0:02:49.405 to Detective Tommy Hudson several times. Tommy is the detective 0:02:49.605 --> 0:02:53.085 who's responsible for organizing the search inside the drain pipes 0:02:53.445 --> 0:02:56.565 in the park where Abby's body was discovered in twenty eighteen. 0:02:57.205 --> 0:03:00.365 But it's pretty clear that police will not release any 0:03:00.405 --> 0:03:04.085 information about the evidence they have so far, about any 0:03:04.125 --> 0:03:09.405 potential suspects, or really anything else. Tommy retired from the 0:03:09.405 --> 0:03:13.605 Little Rock Police Department in September twenty twenty one, and 0:03:13.685 --> 0:03:16.685 when that happened, Ebby's case went to a new detective. 0:03:17.565 --> 0:03:20.925 His name is Bruce Maxwell. Record your message at the 0:03:21.005 --> 0:03:24.165 tone when you were finished, hang up or press pound 0:03:24.285 --> 0:03:29.365 for more options. Hi, Bruce, this is Katherine Townsend. I've 0:03:29.405 --> 0:03:32.605 been working on a podcast about Ebbie steps. We're waiting 0:03:32.645 --> 0:03:35.405 on a callback from Bruce to touch base and let 0:03:35.445 --> 0:03:38.165 him know what we're doing, and also to see if 0:03:38.165 --> 0:03:41.925 we can find out anything from him. But first we 0:03:42.005 --> 0:03:45.125 agree we need to take a more detailed look at 0:03:45.125 --> 0:03:50.685 the crime scene. Mike and I head back to Chalamont Park. 0:03:51.525 --> 0:03:54.205 The drain where Ebby was found is a storm drain. 0:03:54.885 --> 0:03:57.085 It's used to drain water when it rains so the 0:03:57.085 --> 0:04:01.205 part doesn't flood. It looks pretty normal. There's an opening 0:04:01.245 --> 0:04:03.605 at the curb about five feet long for the water 0:04:03.685 --> 0:04:06.805 to fall through, and then there's a manhole cover at 0:04:06.805 --> 0:04:11.685 the top. Laurie meets us there are you. Thank you 0:04:11.885 --> 0:04:13.685 to me for you to have to rush over. I'm sorry, 0:04:13.725 --> 0:04:17.045 Oh no, I wasn't very far away. She gets her husband, 0:04:17.205 --> 0:04:20.445 Ebbie's stepdad Michael, on the phone. He's helping direct us. 0:04:20.765 --> 0:04:23.605 Crawling down here and there's not it's it's sort of 0:04:23.645 --> 0:04:25.845 a you got to figure out how to grab that. 0:04:25.965 --> 0:04:28.525 You gotta lower yourself in it, push your feet on 0:04:28.645 --> 0:04:31.405 the little things. I see the little thing. I climbed 0:04:31.405 --> 0:04:33.885 down the rungs on the side of the drain and 0:04:33.965 --> 0:04:37.205 I get to the bottom about eighteen feet down. Who 0:04:38.605 --> 0:04:43.565 all right, Hey, we're down. The floor of the drain 0:04:43.725 --> 0:04:47.165 is covered in leaves. And once you're down here, you 0:04:47.245 --> 0:04:50.165 can see the opening to another pipe. But you can't 0:04:50.205 --> 0:04:52.285 see this from the top. What does it look great? 0:04:52.325 --> 0:04:56.325 Down there? It is a I would say about half 0:04:56.445 --> 0:05:00.205 of me's three foot opening. Sorry, my voice is shaking. 0:05:00.245 --> 0:05:02.765 It's because I actually am scared. But I'll be fineful, 0:05:02.805 --> 0:05:04.085 I'll come down there with you. I'll want to go 0:05:04.165 --> 0:05:07.085 look at something. Okay, just once that, Mike, let me 0:05:07.165 --> 0:05:09.165 try to get the light on. Mike and I look 0:05:09.245 --> 0:05:13.405 into the pipe. The opening is only about thirteen inches across. 0:05:14.205 --> 0:05:16.485 It's about one and a half my body length that 0:05:16.565 --> 0:05:18.085 I was thinking if I was to try to go 0:05:18.205 --> 0:05:21.085 in there two which is that's gonna be right? Yeah, 0:05:21.125 --> 0:05:24.685 it's close to eight nine feet before before that turn. 0:05:24.965 --> 0:05:28.365 I would say it's about like I could definitely crawl 0:05:28.485 --> 0:05:31.805 in here. But I'm not sure. I couldn't turn around 0:05:31.845 --> 0:05:34.245 to come back out. Yeah, you don't have to get 0:05:34.245 --> 0:05:37.565 pulled out, and I could slide, and then what are 0:05:37.565 --> 0:05:40.165 we gonna do. You're gonna buy me a lot of therapy. Yeah, 0:05:40.205 --> 0:05:43.885 you'll be out of there. And even though I really 0:05:44.005 --> 0:05:49.525 don't want to, I crawl into the pipe, I squeeze 0:05:49.565 --> 0:05:53.725 my shoulders into the pipe. But then after that, once 0:05:53.805 --> 0:05:56.925 my shoulders cleared, I can't move my arms down here. 0:05:57.725 --> 0:06:00.645 You can really tell that the pipe ankles down and 0:06:00.805 --> 0:06:04.165 even on a dry day it's slippery. Mike has to 0:06:04.245 --> 0:06:08.045 grab my ankles to pull me out. I also try 0:06:08.165 --> 0:06:13.725 going in feet first in the pipe. I can't. My 0:06:13.925 --> 0:06:16.645 arms are out. If I put my arms like Superman 0:06:16.765 --> 0:06:19.445 like forward, I don't know if I'm gonna be able 0:06:19.445 --> 0:06:22.405 to pull myself out of here. In fact, I'm sure 0:06:22.445 --> 0:06:26.365 that I can't. If I was on my own down here, 0:06:26.725 --> 0:06:29.485 I'm afraid that I could have slid farther down. When 0:06:29.565 --> 0:06:33.645 it's slick with water analogy and stow. It's just like 0:06:33.765 --> 0:06:37.365 a little it's like a slid, a slide. It's downward sloping. 0:06:37.565 --> 0:06:41.045 It If you pushed me down there and there was 0:06:41.125 --> 0:06:44.165 water and stuff, it would be easy to do despite 0:06:44.285 --> 0:06:48.125 my claustrophobia. It was super important to come down here 0:06:48.605 --> 0:06:52.645 because one thing becomes clear. There is no way that 0:06:52.765 --> 0:06:56.005 Ebbie could have accidentally fallen into this pipe from the top. 0:06:56.485 --> 0:06:58.765 But also if someone had just dropped something here. I mean, 0:06:58.805 --> 0:07:01.205 I'm just gonna be so like if someone dropped something here, 0:07:01.285 --> 0:07:02.965 it's not going to naturally go in there. It would 0:07:02.965 --> 0:07:06.645 be like just what I just did. Before we leave 0:07:06.685 --> 0:07:10.165 Schalamont Park, Laurie makes another call to try and get 0:07:10.205 --> 0:07:14.765 in touch with the detective Bruce Maxwell. Hey, Bruce, please 0:07:14.845 --> 0:07:17.565 call me back as soon as you can. I have 0:07:17.725 --> 0:07:20.485 some stuff I really need to tell you about. Thank you, Tiding. 0:07:25.845 --> 0:07:29.165 The police believe that Ebby's body was in the pipe 0:07:29.365 --> 0:07:32.845 the entire time since she went missing in twenty fifteen. 0:07:33.765 --> 0:07:36.325 That means two and a half years of water and 0:07:36.525 --> 0:07:40.125 rain coming through that drain, pushing her body further down. 0:07:41.365 --> 0:07:44.445 Forensics on a case like this, where a body has 0:07:44.485 --> 0:07:48.605 been exposed to the elements for years, can make determining 0:07:48.925 --> 0:07:53.325 manner of death more complicated. I called up a forensics expert, 0:07:53.685 --> 0:07:57.765 Vadal Herrera. We are the rogie dangerous field of medicine. 0:07:58.085 --> 0:08:01.685 We didn't get any respect. This is a thankless profession. 0:08:02.125 --> 0:08:05.645 It never stops. Vadal has been working in the death 0:08:05.685 --> 0:08:09.085 care industry for almost fifty years. He was a deputy 0:08:09.165 --> 0:08:12.565 medical investigator in LA and in nineteen eighty eight he 0:08:12.725 --> 0:08:17.645 founded the company one eight hundred Autopsy. The company provides 0:08:17.685 --> 0:08:21.605 access to a network of professionals you can perform autopsies 0:08:21.685 --> 0:08:25.125 and offer second opinions in cases where families are dealing 0:08:25.165 --> 0:08:29.325 with a mysterious death. Its motto is the deceased must 0:08:29.365 --> 0:08:32.805 be protected and given a voice. Every death has its 0:08:33.085 --> 0:08:37.725 unique story and circumstances. So we're only concerned about the 0:08:37.805 --> 0:08:42.725 body because you've get so many different stories from different ages, 0:08:42.805 --> 0:08:44.805 is different witnesses, and a lot of times they only 0:08:44.885 --> 0:08:46.365 want to tell you what they want you to hear. 0:08:46.765 --> 0:08:49.925 The body will tell you what happens. I told Vidal 0:08:50.005 --> 0:08:52.445 about Ebby, And in a case like this, where it's 0:08:52.445 --> 0:08:55.765 been years, the body will likely have very little helpful 0:08:55.805 --> 0:08:58.685 forensic evidence because it's going to be washed away. It's 0:08:58.685 --> 0:09:00.205 going to be eaten away. I don't know how much 0:09:00.245 --> 0:09:02.845 clothing in there work. And yet to take me into consideration, 0:09:03.285 --> 0:09:08.285 the climates under storms, tornadoes, you have rain, you have snow, 0:09:09.125 --> 0:09:15.565 and then you have carnivorous creatures, the razorbacks, the wild animals, rodents, maggots. 0:09:15.885 --> 0:09:18.605 What about toxicology, I mean, is there any toxicology you 0:09:18.645 --> 0:09:21.365 can do after that long? The only toxicology could do 0:09:21.405 --> 0:09:24.365 is is in her bone marrow. If she has some 0:09:24.525 --> 0:09:27.245 hair left, you can also do the toxicology and the hair. 0:09:27.805 --> 0:09:31.085 When you do toxicology, it's a history of drugs. Just 0:09:31.165 --> 0:09:33.365 now what she ingested. You know, twenty fours before that, 0:09:33.805 --> 0:09:38.245 she may have injecting her inhaling or something. It would 0:09:38.245 --> 0:09:40.445 be in her hair and in her in her bone marrow. 0:09:40.645 --> 0:09:44.445 Because there's nose, there's no viable tissue left after that time. 0:09:44.605 --> 0:09:47.325 Mostly like that, the creatures ate and ate it off. 0:09:47.965 --> 0:09:51.205 And when someone calls you, if this was a call 0:09:51.405 --> 0:09:53.685 right and her family calls you for a second opinion, 0:09:54.205 --> 0:09:57.965 what steps would you recommend that someone takes. Usually what 0:09:58.045 --> 0:09:59.885 we do is are asking, why do you want a 0:09:59.965 --> 0:10:03.085 second opinion? Well, I can't sleep, I can't rest. So 0:10:03.165 --> 0:10:05.365 then when they go over the details of the informa 0:10:05.725 --> 0:10:07.365 like this, just say, if the mother would have called me, 0:10:07.405 --> 0:10:10.165 I would have said, honestly, ma'am, there's really nothing we 0:10:10.285 --> 0:10:13.325 can do. Thank god that she was identified but right 0:10:13.405 --> 0:10:16.405 now there's really no tissue remaining. It's going to answer 0:10:16.405 --> 0:10:19.965 your question as to why she died, her circumstances, where 0:10:20.005 --> 0:10:22.725 her body was located. That Morris was going to say 0:10:22.765 --> 0:10:26.245 a lot in itself, but in pashysicality of something viable 0:10:26.285 --> 0:10:30.205 to collect, it's not there. Since we don't have access 0:10:30.285 --> 0:10:33.805 to Ebbie's case file, we can't see her autopsy report 0:10:34.405 --> 0:10:37.045 or any information about the state of the body and 0:10:37.125 --> 0:10:40.765 the crime scene where she was found. Officially, we don't 0:10:40.805 --> 0:10:45.205 have any forensic information or any determination on the manner 0:10:45.525 --> 0:10:49.725 or cause of death. Videll says he's run across plenty 0:10:49.765 --> 0:10:53.525 of cases like this before that transparency. After six months, 0:10:53.605 --> 0:10:56.525 every record should be available for them to say it's 0:10:56.605 --> 0:11:01.885 under investigation. That's fucking bullshit. That's unacceptable. During one of 0:11:01.925 --> 0:11:05.405 our interviews at Laurie's house, Mike and I asked about 0:11:05.565 --> 0:11:09.445 what she and Ebbie's stepdad, Michael knew about the forensics 0:11:09.485 --> 0:11:14.285 of the case. I went down with Tommy Hudson and Peter, 0:11:14.485 --> 0:11:17.725 her dad, and met with the corner. They gave us 0:11:17.765 --> 0:11:20.885 some information that wouldn't give us everything. They won't. They 0:11:20.965 --> 0:11:25.525 won't tell us all the specifics. They did tell us. 0:11:25.565 --> 0:11:27.765 There were certain things ruled out, and then there were 0:11:27.925 --> 0:11:32.165 things that they wouldn't disclose Tommy, and then wouldn't tell us, 0:11:32.365 --> 0:11:34.685 wouldn't tell me the position of the body, you know, 0:11:34.885 --> 0:11:38.645 head first, she's first up down, none of that. He 0:11:38.765 --> 0:11:42.725 said also that that's for the killer to know. And 0:11:43.245 --> 0:11:45.645 did they tell you if they ruled they said the 0:11:45.725 --> 0:11:48.605 manner of death was homicide. I believe that's what's on 0:11:48.845 --> 0:11:52.445 the death certificate, is homicide, but I think it's also 0:11:52.525 --> 0:11:57.565 listened as undetermined. Manner of death has a few options 0:11:58.125 --> 0:12:06.005 natural accidental suicide or homicide. There's also undetermined, meaning that 0:12:06.205 --> 0:12:10.325 everything could still be on the table, including the possibility 0:12:10.645 --> 0:12:14.325 that Ebby crawled down in that pipe herself. But if 0:12:14.365 --> 0:12:17.885 we believe that Ebby crawled down the drain herself, she 0:12:18.005 --> 0:12:21.725 would also have to close that very heavy manhole cover 0:12:22.045 --> 0:12:27.445 over her. When we were at Chalmont Park, Michael told 0:12:27.565 --> 0:12:30.285 us about a re enactment that the FBI did at 0:12:30.325 --> 0:12:34.205 the scene. The girl that did the reenactment part for 0:12:34.405 --> 0:12:36.685 the MPI got down in there in all the different 0:12:36.685 --> 0:12:39.725 ways that we're talking about, but they also put the 0:12:39.885 --> 0:12:43.805 cover back on it. During this FBI recreation, they had 0:12:43.845 --> 0:12:46.925 a female agent who was about Ebby's height and weight 0:12:47.565 --> 0:12:50.525 try to get down into that pipe. The agent and 0:12:50.605 --> 0:12:54.125 the recreation was able to close the manhole cover, but 0:12:54.245 --> 0:12:58.165 it was tough, and this was in broad daylight. But 0:12:58.285 --> 0:13:01.725 from the phone call with Trevor, we know that Ebby 0:13:01.845 --> 0:13:07.645 was extremely disoriented, and it was after five pm. Sundown 0:13:07.845 --> 0:13:10.485 was at six twenty three pm that day, so it 0:13:10.525 --> 0:13:14.885 would have been getting dark or pitch black. And even 0:13:14.965 --> 0:13:18.165 if Ebbie could have crawled down and covered the manhole somehow, 0:13:19.045 --> 0:13:22.485 why would she. Was she trying to hide from someone 0:13:23.485 --> 0:13:28.565 or was she there alone. One part of this case 0:13:28.645 --> 0:13:31.485 that's never been fully covered in the public is Ebby's 0:13:31.525 --> 0:13:34.725 mental health issues. Her family tells us that she was 0:13:34.805 --> 0:13:38.285 diagnosed with bipolar disorder and that she had gone off 0:13:38.365 --> 0:13:42.285 her medication in the past. She was also prescribed two 0:13:42.285 --> 0:13:45.445 other drugs which she was taking for medical conditions that 0:13:45.525 --> 0:13:51.205 were unrelated to bipolar disorder. Because Ebby's brother Trevor said 0:13:51.245 --> 0:13:53.845 that she was slurring her words and appeared to be 0:13:53.965 --> 0:13:57.885 really intoxicated during their last phone conversation, we do have 0:13:58.005 --> 0:14:01.005 to consider the possibility that she could have been affected 0:14:01.325 --> 0:14:06.285 by mixing her medication with possibly another drug or drinking alcohol. 0:14:07.485 --> 0:14:12.525 People experiencing bi polar disorder can experience paranoia and audio 0:14:12.685 --> 0:14:16.885 and visual hallucinations, but Laurie says that to her knowledge, 0:14:17.405 --> 0:14:21.285 Ebbie never experienced that. Ebbie had been dealing with bipolar 0:14:21.365 --> 0:14:25.125 disorder and exhibiting erratic behavior for a long time, but 0:14:25.325 --> 0:14:30.565 she did have certain patterns. For example, Ebbie always had 0:14:30.605 --> 0:14:33.605 her phone with her, so why would she leave it behind? 0:14:34.565 --> 0:14:38.285 And even with her nomadic lifestyle, she was always with 0:14:38.485 --> 0:14:42.045 people like Danielle, or with her grandparents or Trevor or 0:14:42.125 --> 0:14:46.325 other friends. She was in constant contact with people, So 0:14:46.685 --> 0:14:50.645 why would she go to Chalamont Park alone? Here's Danielle. 0:14:51.205 --> 0:14:52.925 There was no reason for her to go sit in 0:14:53.005 --> 0:14:55.685 a park by herself at night. Ebbie wasn't the type 0:14:55.725 --> 0:14:57.685 of person, Hey let me just go sit in this 0:14:57.765 --> 0:14:59.925 park for a little bit. The way that I think 0:15:00.085 --> 0:15:04.165 she went there with intentions of meeting someone she knew. Listen, Ei, 0:15:05.485 --> 0:15:08.565 he had a strong personality. But she wasn't stupid. She 0:15:08.845 --> 0:15:14.445 she is very very smart. And for her to just think, oh, hey, 0:15:14.645 --> 0:15:17.045 let me go sit in a park at night, no 0:15:17.685 --> 0:15:20.085 like that, that's just that's so out of the ordinary 0:15:20.165 --> 0:15:23.205 for me to even I couldn't even process that through 0:15:23.285 --> 0:15:25.685 my head. Even if she would have told me I'm 0:15:25.725 --> 0:15:28.045 going to go sit in a park at night by myself. Yeah, 0:15:28.165 --> 0:15:30.925 I'm like, no're you're too smart for that, Like I 0:15:31.045 --> 0:15:35.005 know you would I do at Almost everyone we've talked 0:15:35.005 --> 0:15:38.885 to thinks it's extremely unlikely that Ebbie could have gone 0:15:38.925 --> 0:15:42.925 down in that pipe herself. Even Tommy Hudson, the detective 0:15:42.965 --> 0:15:46.525 who investigated the case for years. I asked him point 0:15:46.605 --> 0:15:49.885 blank about the manner of death, and I know you're 0:15:49.925 --> 0:15:52.165 not releasing the cause of death, but did you is it? 0:15:52.285 --> 0:15:54.965 Is it manner of death homicide or manner of death undetermined? 0:15:56.365 --> 0:15:59.485 I will say, okay, uh and and and there's just 0:15:59.605 --> 0:16:02.645 there there's a reason for that, is you know, I mean, 0:16:02.925 --> 0:16:07.005 it's my standard answer on the cause of death is 0:16:07.885 --> 0:16:11.405 you know, we investigate everything is a homicide until proven otherwise, 0:16:11.725 --> 0:16:14.445 you know, on the people that know that as they're 0:16:14.485 --> 0:16:17.405 being a killer. And you know, so I think that 0:16:17.525 --> 0:16:20.405 needs to remain that way. People disagree with me about 0:16:20.645 --> 0:16:22.325 some people that have the police department, but then again, 0:16:22.365 --> 0:16:24.005 these are the people that have the investigation on the 0:16:24.085 --> 0:16:26.005 front end, and I don't give them that much weight. 0:16:26.885 --> 0:16:29.685 Is she didn't crawl down there by ourselves. Somebody put 0:16:29.765 --> 0:16:33.245 her down there. While we wait to see if we 0:16:33.325 --> 0:16:36.725 can get any more information from the new detective Bruce Maxwell, 0:16:37.565 --> 0:16:39.565 We're going to see if there's anything we can do 0:16:39.845 --> 0:16:43.565 to eliminate some of the suspects, because what Laurie said 0:16:43.685 --> 0:16:46.725 sticks with me. There can be twenty five people on 0:16:46.925 --> 0:16:49.765 the radar, why are they still on there? And when 0:16:49.805 --> 0:16:53.485 we talk to Tommy Hudson, he confirmed that no one 0:16:53.845 --> 0:16:57.005 has been officially ruled out. Everybody's on the radar still. 0:16:57.805 --> 0:17:04.045 So who are these multiple people of interest? First, there 0:17:04.085 --> 0:17:06.165 are the four guys she was with at the small 0:17:06.245 --> 0:17:09.645 party on Friday night. The friend who drove Ebby to 0:17:09.685 --> 0:17:12.885 the party has never been publicly identified, but we know 0:17:13.045 --> 0:17:16.685 who he is. Let's call him by his first initial C. 0:17:17.765 --> 0:17:20.045 We've also been able to identify the other guys at 0:17:20.045 --> 0:17:24.485 the party. El is the guy that Ebbie is accusing 0:17:24.525 --> 0:17:28.445 of sexual assault. L also attended Central High with Ebbie 0:17:28.765 --> 0:17:32.125 and was a talented football player. And we know that 0:17:32.245 --> 0:17:35.485 on Saturday, Ebbie was at her grandparents' house during the day. 0:17:36.525 --> 0:17:41.445 While she was there, Ebbie texted C. In that text message, 0:17:41.805 --> 0:17:44.885 Ebbie told C that she believed that El had been 0:17:44.965 --> 0:17:49.045 filming her during that sexual encounter. At that party, she 0:17:49.285 --> 0:17:52.525 asked for Elle's number. C texted her that phone number. 0:17:53.405 --> 0:17:56.125 He also texted that he had spoken to L and 0:17:56.405 --> 0:18:02.205 LL denied having a video. After Ebbie went missing, police 0:18:02.365 --> 0:18:07.285 did talk to C and L, but according to Laurie, 0:18:07.725 --> 0:18:12.205 the police only interviewed them once and their phones were 0:18:12.285 --> 0:18:17.125 not subpoena And ever since that weekend, no one else 0:18:17.205 --> 0:18:20.005 has been able to talk to them, not the web slues, 0:18:20.405 --> 0:18:24.685 not the private investigators, not the FBI, not even Tommy. 0:18:25.645 --> 0:18:27.085 When I got the case, I was never able to 0:18:27.485 --> 0:18:30.845 interviewed these guys because they'd all retained counsel. Because between 0:18:31.365 --> 0:18:33.525 the detectives that had the case prior to me getting 0:18:33.565 --> 0:18:36.645 the case, and then all the private investigators that were 0:18:36.725 --> 0:18:39.725 involved in pursuing the case at that time, along with 0:18:39.885 --> 0:18:42.765 the people that were sitting in there underwear at three 0:18:42.765 --> 0:18:44.685 o'clock in the morning and trying to investigate the case, 0:18:45.405 --> 0:18:48.485 it shot all those all those good interviews that you 0:18:48.525 --> 0:18:50.245 could have done with those guys on the front end 0:18:50.285 --> 0:18:54.365 to help eliminate them. Since I've left, I don't think 0:18:54.525 --> 0:18:57.765 they've still been interviewed or swab Because number one, you're 0:18:57.885 --> 0:18:59.285 you're not gonna be able get to search more to 0:18:59.285 --> 0:19:02.205 get a swab. No one has been able to talk 0:19:02.245 --> 0:19:05.405 to these guys since Ebbie went missing in twenty fifteen, 0:19:06.525 --> 0:19:09.005 so that's what we're going to try to do. We're 0:19:09.045 --> 0:19:15.245 going to go track down See. You're going to take 0:19:15.445 --> 0:19:21.085 exit one nine. Hey, Mike, my producer, Gabby and I 0:19:21.845 --> 0:19:26.005 are all heading to See's house. We're going to get close. 0:19:26.485 --> 0:19:28.325 We're going to figure out if he's home or not. 0:19:28.565 --> 0:19:30.325 We're gonna go knock on the door and we're going 0:19:30.365 --> 0:19:33.645 to try to just talk to him. If you look 0:19:33.685 --> 0:19:38.085 at any articles about Ebbie's death, these guys, while they 0:19:38.245 --> 0:19:41.965 haven't been referred to you by name, remains suspects in 0:19:42.005 --> 0:19:45.245 the eyes of the public because their names have never 0:19:45.445 --> 0:19:50.565 publicly been cleared. Shortly after Ebbie went missing, we're told 0:19:50.685 --> 0:19:53.685 that all of the guys got lawyers, so it's impossible 0:19:53.765 --> 0:19:56.805 to get them on the phone. We're being careful because 0:19:56.885 --> 0:20:00.005 we've been warned that See and his friends could be dangerous. 0:20:01.205 --> 0:20:04.365 I've heard this before, but I take everything out here 0:20:04.445 --> 0:20:06.645 with a grain of salt, and in any case, I'm 0:20:06.685 --> 0:20:09.645 not gonna let it stop me. Plus this time, I 0:20:09.725 --> 0:20:12.765 have Mike with me. When we pull up near the 0:20:12.805 --> 0:20:16.205 address we have for sea. We see a woman outside, 0:20:17.525 --> 0:20:21.525 We drive past and then turn around, and finally Mike 0:20:21.605 --> 0:20:23.525 and I get out of the car and walk over 0:20:27.125 --> 0:20:34.925 seeing anywhere. Sure. Ye, So I do a podcast called 0:20:34.965 --> 0:20:39.085 Helen Gone. We're doing every stuffic case, and so we 0:20:39.245 --> 0:20:45.645 just really just wanted to. As soon as we mentioned 0:20:45.685 --> 0:20:48.405 Ebbie's name and told her what we were working on, 0:20:49.165 --> 0:20:52.285 she knew exactly why we were there. She says she 0:20:52.525 --> 0:20:55.605 sees mom, and while she didn't want to do an 0:20:55.645 --> 0:21:04.925 official interview, she did spend around twenty minutes talking to us. No. 0:21:06.405 --> 0:21:11.085 Two great tooth grade. He could It's it's hard. You 0:21:11.085 --> 0:21:13.245 could tell she really wanted to talk but wasn't supposed to. 0:21:14.485 --> 0:21:16.605 He could feel the like pin up resentment. I was 0:21:16.605 --> 0:21:18.645 actually kind of hoping we'd run into one of his parents. 0:21:19.765 --> 0:21:24.085 Here's what happened. She let us know that he will 0:21:24.165 --> 0:21:27.045 not be talking. She said, this is something that's basically 0:21:27.205 --> 0:21:30.925 tortured them for years. There's a lot of anger toward 0:21:31.805 --> 0:21:35.085 Ebbie's family because she feels like her son was kind 0:21:35.125 --> 0:21:36.765 of thrown under the you know, thrown under the bus, 0:21:36.965 --> 0:21:38.805 and she you know, she just says, like he didn't 0:21:38.805 --> 0:21:39.885 have anything to do with it. He saw her on 0:21:39.965 --> 0:21:43.045 Friday night. He was really cooperative with her when I 0:21:43.125 --> 0:21:45.405 guess she meant probably those texts we saw where it 0:21:45.445 --> 0:21:48.165 was like, you know, I need this guy's number, et cetera. 0:21:48.245 --> 0:21:50.845 And he gave her the number, and she says he 0:21:50.925 --> 0:21:55.285 didn't talk to her at all after that Friday. Even 0:21:55.365 --> 0:21:58.845 though their names haven't been published in the media. See's 0:21:58.885 --> 0:22:01.725 mom said this has followed her son around and haunted 0:22:01.845 --> 0:22:05.165 him for years. This is clearly something that has had 0:22:05.205 --> 0:22:08.725 a massive impact on his life. His mom says he 0:22:08.845 --> 0:22:10.805 has a good job now and is on a good path. 0:22:11.725 --> 0:22:14.845 When Ebbie went missing, she said that police checked out 0:22:14.925 --> 0:22:17.805 his alibi and verified that he was either at his 0:22:17.965 --> 0:22:22.365 job or somewhere else all weekend. She said she doesn't 0:22:22.445 --> 0:22:26.405 understand why her son and his friends haven't been publicly cleared. 0:22:26.925 --> 0:22:30.885 I feel for people who are put in positions where 0:22:31.005 --> 0:22:33.005 they might not have done anything and their name gets 0:22:33.045 --> 0:22:35.325 brought up. I really do, and I've spent a lot 0:22:35.405 --> 0:22:38.605 of my time trying to get those people cleared. At 0:22:38.685 --> 0:22:42.245 the same time, you know, the reality is there's someone 0:22:43.045 --> 0:22:47.285 there's someone dead, and there's a killer out there, and 0:22:47.405 --> 0:22:50.965 it's like it sucks that people who were around at 0:22:51.005 --> 0:22:53.525 the near the time of death do have to be underscrutiny, 0:22:53.565 --> 0:22:55.565 but that's just the nature of how it is. I 0:22:55.605 --> 0:22:57.645 think it went really well. Honestly, it could have. I 0:22:57.685 --> 0:22:59.685 think it was fine. I think it was like, in 0:22:59.765 --> 0:23:01.205 a way better than talking to him, because I have 0:23:01.285 --> 0:23:02.605 a feeling he might have just shut the door in 0:23:02.645 --> 0:23:07.765 her face, and she was much more alike, yeah, sincere, Yeah, 0:23:08.085 --> 0:23:10.045 she understood why we were there. You know what else 0:23:10.125 --> 0:23:12.805 that told me though, that conversation, Like, is that so 0:23:12.965 --> 0:23:14.485 she's like, no one's coming here? Does that mean no 0:23:14.645 --> 0:23:18.125 journalist nobody has gone there? Ye talk to them, which 0:23:18.205 --> 0:23:24.125 is crazy. We can't officially clear CNL right now, but 0:23:24.205 --> 0:23:27.565 it's a step in the right direction. I keep thinking 0:23:27.645 --> 0:23:31.205 about something Tommy said that there are other people who 0:23:31.325 --> 0:23:34.565 he's even more suspicious of than the guys that Ebbie 0:23:34.645 --> 0:23:38.445 was with on Friday night. But you know, the one 0:23:38.485 --> 0:23:41.445 thing I would say in their defense is it's like 0:23:41.565 --> 0:23:45.605 I said earlier, there's there's other people that were with 0:23:45.845 --> 0:23:49.365 her way after the point that all that allegedly happened 0:23:49.405 --> 0:23:53.205 that Friday night that I'm even more suspicious of than 0:23:53.485 --> 0:23:56.245 those guys. I will say that in their defense right 0:23:56.405 --> 0:23:59.325 and uh, And we have found those people that were 0:24:00.005 --> 0:24:03.925 with her after the Friday night incident. I can track 0:24:04.005 --> 0:24:06.005 her all the way to early Sunday morning, in study 0:24:06.005 --> 0:24:08.685 afternoon when she talked to Trevor, which was the last 0:24:08.725 --> 0:24:11.205 person she talked to. You know, these guys that I 0:24:11.285 --> 0:24:15.005 talked to over night, I mean, I mean, I've told Laurie, 0:24:15.045 --> 0:24:19.085 I mean, they are some shady guys for me. Those guys, 0:24:19.885 --> 0:24:22.765 A couple of those guys, one of particulars really on 0:24:22.885 --> 0:24:26.485 my radar. Who were these other guys? We need to 0:24:26.605 --> 0:24:29.965 find out where Ebbie was on Saturday night after she 0:24:30.125 --> 0:24:34.045 left her grandparents. Something happened to her, something that meant 0:24:34.125 --> 0:24:37.445 that by Sunday afternoon, when Ebbie called her brother Trevor 0:24:37.885 --> 0:24:41.085 for what would be her family's last ever conversation with her, 0:24:41.845 --> 0:24:45.045 she was in serious trouble. A lot can happen in 0:24:45.165 --> 0:24:48.565