1 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, this was Lee Clasgow when We're Talking Transports. 2 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Bloomberg Intelligence Talking Transports podcast. I'm your host, 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: Lee Clasgow, senior freight, transportation and logistics analysts at Bloomberg Intelligence, 4 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's in house research arm of almost five hundred analysts 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: and strategists around the world. A quick public service announcement 6 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: before we dive in. Your support is instrumental to keep 7 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: bringing great guests and conversations to you, our listeners, and 8 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: we need your support. So please, if you enjoy this podcast, 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: share it, like it and leave a comment. Also, if 10 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: you've got ideas, feedback, or just want to talk transports, 11 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: I'm always happy to connect. You can find me on 12 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg terminal LinkedIn, or on x at Logistics lead. 13 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: I'm very excited to have with us today. Joe Kraimik 14 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: the President and CEO of the World Shipping Council, or WSC, 15 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: which represents the global liner shipping industry. He joined WSC 16 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one and became CEO in August of 17 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. Prior to joining, Joe spent twenty eight 18 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: years with the US Coast Guard, serving at sea and 19 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: later as Chief of Maritime, International and Environmental Law, where 20 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: he led US delegation to the IMO Legal Committee, and 21 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: as Chief of Congressional Affairs, where he led the Services 22 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: engagement with the US Congress. Welcome to talking transports, Joe. 23 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, and before we dive in, want 24 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: to thank you for your service. I really appreciate that. 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: Obviously your time at the Coast Guard, so thank you 26 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: for that. 27 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Its an honor to serve. 28 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: So before we dive in, you know, I kind of 29 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: gave a quick hint of what the World Shipping Council 30 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: is all about. Can you talk about your members and 31 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: your mission? 32 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: Surely? So. The World Shipping Council is the global voice 33 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 2: of the liner shipping. We truly are global. 34 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 3: We have offices in Singapore, Brussels, London, and Washington, d C. 35 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 3: We have over ninety percent of liner shipping and our 36 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 3: membership in terms of global tonnage and that includes a container, 37 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 3: container carriers and vehicle carriers. And our mission is to 38 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 3: support a safer, secure and sustainable global shipping environment. 39 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: Right, and so your kind of members are the companies 40 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: like Habag, Lloyd Mayor's. 41 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 3: Costco exactly we have. We have twenty four members now. 42 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 3: But there are all the big major container liners and 43 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 3: a lot of smaller ones maybe that you know, our 44 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 3: more regional players like express feeders, regional container lines, emirate 45 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 3: shipping lines, some that don't even trade in the US. 46 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:48,399 Speaker 3: We have Mattson and Crowley, both both US based, and 47 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 3: like you said, MSc Mayors, Cat, Big, Lloyd's, CMA, CGM, Costco, 48 00:02:53,600 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 3: o Ande, like Evergreen, One High Yang Ming. I won't 49 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 3: try to name them all, but suffice to say it's 50 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 3: it's it's all the all the majors, as well as 51 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 3: many others, and our vehicle carriers who've been in the 52 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 3: news a lot too with the with the vessel fees. 53 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 3: But we have a will Heaneous Wilhelms, and we just 54 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 3: got aboard a Hugue Auto Liners and we have an 55 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 3: ny K kline and. 56 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 2: M O L. 57 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: So the the big players, yeah, the auto carriers are 58 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: also the ships are called row row which is I 59 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: like to say, for some reason, it just rolls off 60 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: your tongue. Sure, So you know, given your vantage point 61 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: and your member's vantage point, how would you characterize the 62 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: state of the global liner industry right now? 63 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 3: If there was a word cloud one hundred feet high 64 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 3: would be the word uncertainty. It's very challenging to trade 65 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 3: globally right now. That's I mean, we we know what 66 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 3: we're dealing with in the US with the with the 67 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 3: tariffs and some of the fees that were first imposed 68 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 3: and then pulled back on China He's built and other 69 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 3: and other vessels. But you know, you just looking across 70 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 3: the globe in terms of geopolitical threats like the Red Sea, 71 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 3: the Black Sea. 72 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: We have regional carbon areas. 73 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 3: Like the EU e t S, a new African Sovereign 74 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 3: Carbon Commission, the UK proposing regional mechanisms. So between you know, 75 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 3: regulatory challenges, geopolitical challenges and tariffs and other barriers as 76 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 3: you trade globally, it's tremendously challenging, right. 77 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: And could you like talk a little bit about, you know, 78 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: the status of what's going on in the Red Sea, 79 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: because there's been a lot of interesting reports in the press. 80 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: So I'm saying that some ship lines are looking at it, 81 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: some ship linings are saying they may look at it, 82 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: some shipliners being reported that they're going to look at it, 83 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: and they're really not looking at it so kind of 84 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: what's your take and when you talk to members about 85 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: going back to the Suez Canal. 86 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: Well, every thing you said is just right actually, So 87 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 2: what it What it. 88 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,679 Speaker 3: Is is that each member line individually assesses their their risk. 89 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 3: The World Shipping Council works closely with navies like the 90 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 3: US Navy and fifth Fleet that's BACE there in Bahrain, 91 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 3: Navure of four and they have the Speedies Task Force, 92 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 3: and we try to give information to our members so 93 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 3: that they can make those individualized risk calculations. Right now, 94 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 3: the risk calculation is a pretty simple one. If if 95 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 3: you if the Houthis are to be believed, and I 96 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 3: wouldn't say you should believe them, but if you have 97 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 3: a U, S, U, K or Israeli affiliation, then they 98 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 3: said that that is their targeting reference. So you know, 99 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 3: members who have those types of affiliations include you know, 100 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 3: if they've even pulled into an Israeli pored or something. 101 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 3: The Hoothy's research doesn't tend to be the best in 102 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 3: the business, to to be frank. But the other the 103 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 3: other factor that's that's relatively new is a bly the 104 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 3: Huthis are watching very closely. 105 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 2: The peace process. Well, hopefully the peace process. 106 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 3: Play out, but they're but they're sitting right there, and 107 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 3: you know, they continue to pose a threat. And if 108 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 3: you go on the there's a great product that the 109 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 3: uk UH Maritime Transportation Office put together with the US 110 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 3: Navy and the European Navy, and it's called a j 111 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 3: MICK j m i C, which is Joint Maritime Information Center. 112 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 3: They literally put out a weekly publicly available risk product 113 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 3: that's similar to an intelligence product, and it literally has 114 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 3: a heat map for assessing risk. And so the risk 115 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 3: is moderate right now if you have one of those affiliations. 116 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 3: It's a little bit lower if you don't have one 117 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 3: of those affiliations, but you don't want to get that wrong. 118 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 3: And another piece that a lot of people don't consider 119 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 3: is you know it for our container liner members. You know, 120 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 3: that trade route is the largest trade route between Asia 121 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 3: and the European Union, the biggest ships in the world. 122 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 3: Twenty four one thousand boxes trade on that route. And 123 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 3: when you have twenty four thousand boxes a cargo, you 124 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 3: could have four to five billion dollars of cargo on 125 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 3: board the ship. So your protection and indemnity club, that 126 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 3: is your insurance, you know, might have something to say 127 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 3: about which direction you had as well. So many members 128 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 3: continue to assess the risk as too high and they 129 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 3: continue to go around the continent of Africa and the 130 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 3: Cape of Good Hope. Others have gone through the entire time. 131 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 3: Some have done it on a case by case basis 132 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 3: if they have a frigate that can escort them through, 133 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 3: and so they're all there. But there's still a tremendous 134 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 3: commercial advantage if you can safely go through the Red Sea. 135 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 3: You don't want to get that wrong. And the other 136 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 3: piece is you don't want to go back in and 137 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 3: then have to go back out again, because a lot 138 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 3: of people don't realize. It wasn't like flip in a 139 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 3: light switch, you know, go or no go. These were 140 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 3: global shipping networks with transhipment areas that were completely re 141 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 3: routed it and redesigned. And so if we're going to 142 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 3: go back in, if if a member line is going 143 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 3: to go back in, it's going to have to reconfigure 144 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 3: its network, or it's going to be in a period 145 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 3: of transition where it's trying to reconfigure its network. And 146 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 3: so if you go back in and the threat peaks 147 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 3: back up and you have to go back out that 148 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 3: that's really going to bite hard. 149 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: Right and given given your your past experience, are you 150 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: surprised that, you know, governments having done more to make 151 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: sure that the Red Sea is more secure than what 152 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: they've done. 153 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 3: You know, I I don't know that I would agree 154 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 3: with that statement, but you know what I what I 155 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 3: would say is that a particular navy admiral I won't 156 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 3: say his name, that was heading now sent said at 157 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 3: the very beginning, this isn't going to be one by 158 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 3: naval power. This is going to be one by diplomacy. 159 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 3: And that's and that I think he's been right about that. 160 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 3: You know, we've seen, you know, some kinetic attacks by 161 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 3: the US and UK, some pretty heavy ones. We've seen 162 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 3: you know, trying to use naval coalitions to patrol and 163 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 3: secure and pretty much everything else under the sun. But 164 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 3: the houthis continue to be a menacing, uh more than 165 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 3: a menacing threat, a deadly threat with with things that 166 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 3: commercial shipping and and and the seafarers who are unarmed 167 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 3: have never seen before. Hypersonic missiles, drones, I mean, things 168 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 3: that challenge navies. A lot of navies, you know, you 169 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 3: only have a few seconds to deal with the hypersonic 170 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 3: missile as well as you know, just attacks from from 171 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 3: small boats as it started out. And so it seems 172 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 3: despite what different naval powers did, the houthis still persistent. 173 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 3: Why that is, you know, is a question probably for 174 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 3: someone who's more of a you know, a scholar of 175 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 3: war naval power more more than I am, but it 176 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 3: but it's it's just the fact is that they can 177 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 3: they continue to pose a threat and can do so. 178 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 3: And I think if anything, they've gotten more sophisticated as 179 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 3: as the years went by here, So it's something to 180 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 3: really watch and be concerned about for commercial shipping, right 181 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 3: so just. 182 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: Just shifting gears a little bit obviously, you know, the 183 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,079 Speaker 1: kind of like reducing emissions has been a big focus 184 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: of the shipping industry, and I know you guys are 185 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: involved in that. You know, can you talk about, you know, 186 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: what the shipping industry has done to reduce its carbon 187 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: footprint and you know, what are your thoughts about them 188 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: getting to zero by I believe it's twenty fifty. The 189 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: IMO has has said the data as. 190 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's correct. 191 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 3: So I'm I couldn't be proud of our industry, and 192 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 3: not just because I represent it. But when you know, 193 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 3: when you look across the transportation sector, you know, people said, oh, 194 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,839 Speaker 3: shipping will be the hardest, the hardest segment to abate. 195 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 3: Liner shipping is responsible for approximately three percent of global emissions. 196 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 3: Our members have put an unprecedented one hundred and fifty 197 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 3: billion dollars dollars in private investment in new ships that 198 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 3: are dual fuel. There's already three hundred of them on 199 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 3: the water. There'll be more than one thousand by twenty thirty, 200 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 3: which will constitute almost twenty five percent of the global 201 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 3: liner fleet. So you know, we're the we're the early 202 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 3: adopters in in this for sure. But you know what 203 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 3: what needs to come behind that, obviously is the framework. Unfortunately, 204 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 3: you know, the framework didn't get across the line at 205 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 3: the last session of that IMO Marine Environmental Protection Committee. 206 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 2: You know, they'll they'll take up that work again. 207 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 3: There'll probably be some new proposals on the table when 208 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 3: they take up that work. But for liner shipping, you know, 209 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 3: you have the capacity for these new fuels, but they burn, 210 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 3: you know, or they cost you know, three to five 211 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 3: times more than traditional fossil fuels. And if you think 212 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,719 Speaker 3: about box ships, it's like you and I each own 213 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 3: a grocery store and we're selling the same can of 214 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 3: tomato soup, right and if your can of soup is 215 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 3: you know, five times more than my can of soup, 216 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 3: then you're not going to be in business for very long. 217 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 3: So the mechanism was meant to basically offset that cost 218 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 3: and incentivize the transition. And without that incentivization, it'll probably 219 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 3: still come along. You know, hopefully we do get the 220 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 3: net zero framework back in. We're still committed to that, 221 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 3: but it'll be a little bit slower. 222 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: And you know, you mentioned there's three hundred dual fuel 223 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: ships on the water right now, but most of them 224 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: are just burning low sulfur diesel fuel, right, They're not. 225 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 3: No, a lot of them are liquid natural gas. So, 226 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 3: and liquid natural gas is a really good fuel. It's 227 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 3: viewed as a transition fuel, but it's really good for 228 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 3: your traditional criteria pollutants like sulfur dioxides, nitrous dioxides, and 229 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 3: particulate matter. It has the secondary advantage of you, if 230 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 3: you're using LERG, you can probably later in time, if 231 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 3: other fuels are available, use e LNG or other drop 232 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 3: in fuels. So it's a pretty proven technology that a 233 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 3: lot of our members have decided to go with as 234 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 3: a as a first step. You know that everyone always 235 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 3: asks me, hey, what's the fuel of the future going 236 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 3: to be? 237 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 2: What's the winner? 238 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 3: And I've said, if I knew that, I wouldn't be 239 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,719 Speaker 3: sitting here right now. You know, but there's a lot 240 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,479 Speaker 3: of competitors out in the space. You know, there's ammonia, 241 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 3: there's there's green methanol. We even you know, hydrogen has 242 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 3: talked about. Even these new small liquid sodium nuclear reactors 243 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 3: are talked about. Those are probably more in the out years. 244 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 3: But it just goes to show you that there's just 245 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 3: a lot of development and stuff in the space. And 246 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 3: and when you're talking about a thousand foot ship that 247 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 3: trades globally, you need to have the availability of fuel, 248 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 3: and you need to have the availability at ports where 249 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 3: you trade, and and so there's a huge ledge just 250 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 3: extail that comes with that. So it needs to be 251 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 3: produced at scale, needs to be put in the right places, 252 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 3: and that's going to just you know, that's going to 253 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 3: take some time. But what we don't want is, you know, 254 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 3: what we need is a global framework, and that's why 255 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 3: we look to IMO. What we don't want is what 256 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 3: we have right now. We have any EU emissions trading system. 257 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 3: We have an African Sovereign Carbon Coalition proposing areas off 258 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 3: of Africa. The United Kingdom just put out a request 259 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 3: for information on a similar trading scheme, and Turkey has 260 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 3: talked about one two and if we get these patchwork 261 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 3: quilt of you know, regional emissions areas that you have 262 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 3: to comply with in some form or fashion or just 263 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 3: pay to go through at different amounts. How we started 264 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 3: was talking about how hard it is to trade globally. 265 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 3: That makes it tremendously harder. Just a compliance issue alone 266 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 3: is super challenging. 267 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: So outside of costs, is the compliance issue the number 268 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: one issue? Or fuel availability or actually after costs, is 269 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: the compliance issue the number two issue? Or is availability 270 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: the number two is? 271 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 3: I think availability is the first issue. Yeah, you know, 272 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 3: once you once the fuels you know, more readily available, 273 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 3: you know, then if then you have the question of okay, 274 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 3: can the costs come down? Because because just think of 275 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 3: you know that the early and late adopter curve, like 276 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 3: if I get the new iPhone or I wait and 277 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 3: I hold out right, it's okay to be a late 278 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 3: adopter you know, but if you're a competitor, like I said, 279 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 3: is basically carrying a fungible box, you know, and and 280 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 3: they are operating out of much lower capex than that 281 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 3: puts you in a in a challenging space. 282 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: And so you'd like to see, uh, just a global 283 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: framework from the IMO come. 284 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 3: Out exactly that that's you know, that's a lot of 285 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 3: people they sort of forgot, I think. But that's why 286 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 3: we have the International Maritime Organization is to put in 287 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 3: place global regulations for shipping, because you know, global trade 288 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 3: needs a global regulation, and if it has all these 289 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 3: fragmented regulations, then it restricts trade, which makes products more 290 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 3: costly for consumers, and that's the opposite of what we. 291 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: Want, right, And so when do you think that you 292 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: might have a global framework? Because can you just give 293 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: some background and why it didn't get over the finish 294 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: line last time? 295 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 3: Sure that the so IMO, it's important to note work 296 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 3: we have consultative status at the IMO, but the IMO 297 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 3: has member states, right, so member states are the ones 298 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 3: that get to vote and put things into place. 299 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 2: And so the framework was agreed. 300 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 3: Upon in April of this past year, and so October 301 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 3: was going to be the vote to approve it and 302 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 3: put it in place, the US came out very strongly 303 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 3: again it as and that these were just taxes, and 304 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 3: and that you know, their their position that they've put 305 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 3: forward on you know, climate change, you know, not not 306 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 3: agreeing with climate change. 307 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 2: And they were they were. 308 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 3: Assisted by some other big oil producing nations like Saudi Arabia, 309 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 3: and so they basically tried to block and tackle to 310 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 3: not have this regulation go forward, and they were and 311 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 3: they were successful in doing so. And so Saudi Arabia 312 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 3: had put a motion on in place that basically said 313 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 3: let's let's just call time out and and take a 314 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 3: year and and come back and revisit this work and 315 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 3: see if we can talk some more. 316 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 2: This was a. 317 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 3: Surprise because it you know, the framework had already been 318 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 3: agreed upon. So I wouldn't say it was you know, 319 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 3: everybody was just thought it was going to pass. I 320 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 3: would say they were. They were surprised at how aggressive 321 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,360 Speaker 3: the US wasn't blocking and tackling. 322 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, you speak of the US. You know, they put 323 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: out their port fees for Chinese made chips. Obviously that 324 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 1: impacts your industry that was shelved. Do you think that's 325 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: dead or are your members very concerned that it could 326 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: come back and be policy. 327 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 3: So we're watching that really closely. I mean we were, 328 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 3: we were, you know, it was we testified before the 329 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 3: US Trade Representative when they were contemplating put in these 330 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 3: fees in place, and we made, you know, the point 331 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 3: that you know, if you're trying to curb China's behavior, 332 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 3: if that's the goal of a three oh one investigation, 333 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 3: then putting fees on vessels that were already built and 334 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 3: built when no one knew that building a Chinese vessel 335 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 3: was somehow going to be penalized down the road. It 336 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 3: does nothing to tear Chinese ships from being built. If 337 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 3: you had taken a different approach and said, hey, in 338 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 3: three or four years with new orders, this is going 339 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 3: to happen, that would be a little bit different. But 340 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 3: these fees are suspended for right now, and you know, 341 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 3: we've seen the whip saws of the different tariffs go 342 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 3: back and forth. We we certainly don't want these fees 343 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 3: to come back into place. They really, you know, they 344 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 3: were they're in three different annexes. The first annex was 345 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 3: on Chinese operated vessels. You know, a lot of people 346 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 3: don't realize two of our members are costs Go, not 347 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 3: cost Code, the big box, nor at Costco and OCL 348 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 3: which Costco owns carry about seventeen percent of the US trade. 349 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 3: So typically when you're before federal regulators like the Federal 350 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 3: Maritime Commission, you know they're they're worried about consolidation and 351 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 3: lack of choice in the industry and that could put 352 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 3: out that could put at risk by charging them a 353 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 3: higher rate than others, so they were charged at the 354 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 3: highest rate. Annex two is Chinese built vessels. Not Chinese 355 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 3: operated a lot of the liners that are really big, 356 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 3: had looked at trying to reconfigure their networks to take 357 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 3: Chinese built vessels off of the US trade lanes, and 358 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,719 Speaker 3: it looked like for the most part, you know, if 359 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 3: the fees went forward, many of them, but not all 360 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 3: of them, would have been successful in that. But then 361 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 3: the craziest one was Annex three, which affected our vehicle 362 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 3: carriers for reasons we still don't understand. Those fees were 363 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 3: imposed on all farm built vehicle carriers. There's only one 364 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 3: US built vehicle carrier as an UNO one, and so. 365 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: I'm just curious, do you know how old that one is? 366 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 3: Oh gosh, I think it was built in I think 367 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 3: it was built in the late nineties. I think it's 368 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 3: owned by Pasha and it's on the US Hawaii Trade 369 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 3: if I'm correct. They're not a member of ours. But 370 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 3: I think I'm correct in that. But so, just if 371 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 3: you're sitting there and you're gonna have to pay a 372 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 3: fee on all farm built vessels, which is totally unmoored 373 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 3: from an investigation into China, right, and China is building 374 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 3: the the vessels that are most fit for purpose at 375 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 3: the cheapest cost. We told them the US Trade representative, 376 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,479 Speaker 3: you're actually incentivizing people purchasing Chinese vessels. If all things considered, 377 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 3: you're going to have. 378 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 2: To pay a fee. 379 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 3: And I say that because there are new large vehicle 380 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 3: carriers being produced in the United States, and although the 381 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 3: administration is it's a great focus for them, and you 382 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 3: know on revitalization of the US maritime industry that's going 383 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 3: to be in the out years. No one's building a 384 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 3: large vehicle carrier or a large cellular containership for a 385 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 3: while in the United States. The capacity just doesn't exist. 386 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: Do you think we ever start building ships like that 387 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: again here in the United States? Or do you think 388 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: that this is something that's the focus of the administration, 389 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: and when the next administration, whoever it is, it kind 390 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: of people forget about it. 391 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,479 Speaker 3: I think that if you are going to do that, 392 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 3: and you're serious about it, you need to have a 393 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 3: ten or a fifteen year plan. Yeah, and a ten 394 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 3: or fifteen year consistent plan has been really challenging, you know, 395 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 3: with the state of our politics these days, just to 396 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 3: stay on that kind of course, but it's it's a 397 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 3: great objective, you know. You know, US shipbuilding, you know, 398 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 3: was obviously huge and then you know, it was walked 399 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 3: away from largely. There's still a lot of commercial vessels 400 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 3: built here, and we still build the most sophisticated naval 401 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 3: warships and submarines that the world has ever seen. So 402 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 3: it's not like we don't do shipbuilding here. But for 403 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 3: commercial shipbuilding you're talking about, you know, repetitive builds of 404 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 3: the same model. You're going to have to compete with Korea, 405 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 3: with Japan, with China. Some of those countries do subsidize 406 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 3: their shipbuilding industry, right, and so you really need a 407 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 3: collective focus to go in there and say and be competitive. 408 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 3: And I think they have to have a plan like, 409 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 3: where do they want to be in ten years? Do 410 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 3: you want to be able to build ten percent of 411 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 3: the world's commercial ships at costs? What kinds of ships 412 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 3: do you want to build? And right now, pretty much 413 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 3: the case for the US builds is the labor costs 414 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 3: are so much higher that you're probably only going to 415 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 3: build in a US container ship if you're putting it 416 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 3: into the Jones Act trade that's between two US boards 417 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 3: required to have a US built, US manned, US owned ship. 418 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 3: Beyond that, beyond that, because the cost is so much higher, 419 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 3: it hasn't made competitive sense. 420 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 2: Perhaps that will come to bear. 421 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 3: And you know, we're open, many of our members have 422 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 3: worked with the administration on that. You know, these are 423 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 3: discussions that are still very much in play in Washington. 424 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 3: But the coordinated effort with a long term view and 425 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 3: consistent bipartisan support is what's needed. And and that's a 426 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 3: challenging space. 427 00:23:54,760 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, absolutely, And do you think that well, actually, 428 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: you mentioned the Jones Act and I just thought of this, like, 429 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: do you remembers are they do they look to try 430 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 1: to get rid of the Jones Act? 431 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 2: Do they? Are they? 432 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 3: So d Rellatis Shipping Council just doesn't touch the Jones Acting. 433 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 3: It's just not in our in our remit. But we 434 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 3: do have members. You know, I think I'm Crowley and 435 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 3: UH and Mattson both do trade in the Jones Act, gotcha. 436 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: So outside of you know, the work you guys do 437 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: on the emissions, you know what other focuses do you 438 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: guys have at the wsc UH within within marine shipping. 439 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 3: Sure a big safety focus right now. So unfortunately, we're 440 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 3: still having a shipboard fire on a container ship almost 441 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:48,360 Speaker 3: every sixty days, which is completely unacceptable. And the basis 442 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 3: for those fires is non or misdeclared dangerous goods and 443 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 3: typically those can be or increasingly those can be lithium 444 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 3: batteries and and these fires once they start are very 445 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 3: hard to put out. 446 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 2: Most of the. 447 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 3: World shippers are, you know, very scrupulous. There's extensive regulations. 448 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 3: There's an International Dangerous Goods Code on how to handle, 449 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 3: pack and store these goods aboard ship. And typically hazardous 450 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 3: goods have to be stored above deck. They have to 451 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 3: sometimes be stored outboard and not near you know, sometimes 452 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 3: other dangerous goods that are known to be on the ship. 453 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,959 Speaker 3: So there's increased handling costs. So that's the incentive to 454 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,880 Speaker 3: miss or non declare. Like a miss declare is ones 455 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 3: that are always interesting to me. Or someone would say, oh, 456 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 3: these are coconut shells. It's actually charcoal, you know, made 457 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 3: from coconut shells, and charcoal is a dangerous good, and 458 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 3: so people might put cars you know, you. 459 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 1: Just blew my mind. You can make charcoal at a 460 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: coconut absolutely wow. 461 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's one. 462 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:56,880 Speaker 3: It's kind of like I'm like, I have a friend 463 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 3: who would say, I want to ship you some wine. 464 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 3: I'm on a trip to Italy, but they won't let 465 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 3: me ship wine. 466 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 2: So I told them it was olive will Yeah. Right. 467 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,479 Speaker 3: But in this case, it puts it puts seafares in danger, 468 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 3: It puts the ships in danger, and it puts other 469 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 3: customer car, other customer's cargo in danger. And the non 470 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 3: declares are just you know, straight out lying. You know, 471 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 3: luckily that's a very small percentage. But these fires, you know, 472 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 3: like one High, which is one of our members, just 473 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 3: the one High five oh three was on fire for 474 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 3: like over a month trying to put that fire out, 475 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 3: and it creates three issues really one, you know, the 476 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 3: safety of life at sea for the seafares two ports 477 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 3: of refuge. No one wants to, you know, take one 478 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 3: of these ships in when they're on fire. And so 479 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 3: when there's a fire at sea, it's not like where 480 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 3: we're sitting here at the beautiful Bloomberg, you know, where 481 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 3: we can run outside the building onto the onto Lexington Avenue. 482 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 3: I mean, you have to fight that fire at sea. 483 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 3: There's no one else to help you. 484 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: We could go to Bloomingdale's well while the fire. 485 00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 3: We could, we could, And and unfair criminalism of seafares, 486 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 3: believe it or not, we have a member Express Feeders 487 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 3: who had a fire off of Sri Lanka and the 488 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 3: fire resulted in environmental damage from containers that burned up 489 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 3: and their contents went ashore, and they arrested the master 490 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 3: and some of the seafares and the master was in 491 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 3: prison for years. And the seafair didn't pack that container. 492 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 3: We only know what shippers tell us is in the container. 493 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 2: That's what we know. 494 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 3: And they have a legal obligation to correctly declare what's 495 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 3: in the container. But when they don't, to cut corners, 496 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,479 Speaker 3: these unscrupulous shippers present the system with tremendous risk. So 497 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 3: the world shipping Council decided to try in an industry solution. 498 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 3: So we have a brand new cargo safety program. And 499 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 3: what it is doing is it's screening bookings before the 500 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 3: when when they're made, and so it's it's through the 501 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 3: National Cargo Bureau. So you know, when you make a 502 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 3: booking for a container, you get like a bill of lading, 503 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 3: and so it's screening millions and millions of bills of lading. 504 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 3: We probably have about almost eighty percent of global ton 505 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 3: of participating in this. And it's looking for At first, 506 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 3: it was looking for keywords. As it gets smarter, it 507 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 3: might look for it's looking for locations of cargo, like 508 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 3: if it's headed in weird directions, and continuing rules are 509 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 3: being developed to make the system smarter. In some initial 510 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 3: runs we've in about we've screened about sixty five million 511 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 3: bookings and we had about a two percent flag rate. 512 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 3: When flag rate means hey, there's there's something wrong, you 513 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 3: know with that with that booking, you should you should 514 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 3: take a look at it, and you can each individual 515 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 3: member company can then decide whether it go take a 516 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 3: look at it, and if they discover, you know, miss 517 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 3: or nondeclared goods, then that's a conversation that they can 518 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 3: have with their customer, and later in time they would 519 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 3: be able to show that. So say you are Marisk 520 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 3: and a booking was flagged, and you went and you 521 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 3: looked at it, and in fact it was misdeclared goods, 522 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 3: you could then put that shipper up into a larger database, 523 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 3: not a blacklist, not a do not ship with this shipper, 524 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 3: but just I had a problem with this shipper. It 525 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 3: doesn't say that Maris had a problem. 526 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 2: With this shipper. 527 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 3: But so if I was, say, happ Big Lloyd, I'd 528 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,959 Speaker 3: be like, oh, someone had a problem with that shipper. 529 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 3: That's a participant in the program. Not that I don't 530 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 3: take their booking, but I might want to use more 531 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 3: due diligence in dealing with them. And so far, you know, 532 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 3: in the like I said, sort of almost initial nascent state. 533 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 3: As we get this program up and running, a lot 534 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 3: of these the flags of the bookings, the shippers have 535 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 3: redeclared the goods as dangerous goods, or they've canceled the booking, 536 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 3: and so we see tremendous upside for this program. 537 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 2: Like anything new, it'll it still needs some work. 538 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 3: But it's kind of like a crowdsourced app like think 539 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 3: of ways or you know, when we see traffic on 540 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 3: Google or Apple Maps, like we get to benefit from 541 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 3: every someone else is booking data and the machine gets 542 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 3: smarter because of that, and we make the supply chain safer. 543 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. 544 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting you start talking about technology because 545 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: I think most people looking at the shipping industry and 546 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: transports in general, they kind of lag the adoption of 547 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: technology relatives to some industries. What else is the industry 548 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,479 Speaker 1: doing to you know, adopt technology to either be safer, 549 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: more efficient, or anything else to that matter. Sure, I 550 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: know you don't talk about profitability, right. 551 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 3: I don't have any commercial information the great association that 552 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 3: I thought, Yeah so no. I was at just earlier 553 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 3: this year in September at the London International Shipping Conference, 554 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 3: and right behind decarbonization, the biggest conversation happening was digitalization. 555 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 3: And digitalization can mean a lot of different things, but 556 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 3: from you know, from an environmental efficiency perspective, some of 557 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 3: the AI companies that are out there in this space 558 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 3: are showing how to you know, run the vessel more 559 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 3: optimally like real time. So they're literally talking about, hey, 560 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 3: you can put a starlink on the ship. Use our 561 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 3: system and we can tell you, you know, go a 562 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 3: few degrees right because the weather's better, slow down on 563 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 3: engine number one and you'll still make it in the 564 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 3: same amount of time and there's real time savings. Similarly, 565 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 3: that's for supply chain security and safety. A lot of 566 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 3: those a lot of those programs are are in place, 567 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 3: and people are increasingly using them and trying them out. 568 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 3: The US has always been, you know, a little bit 569 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,239 Speaker 3: of a challenge because our supply chain. While we're the 570 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 3: ocean part and or the longest leg, you know, when 571 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 3: you get to the ports and cargo gets offloaded and 572 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 3: usually gets brought out of port by truckers in rail 573 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 3: and there's just a lot of small trucking companies and 574 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,479 Speaker 3: they're and they're great folks. But when you try to 575 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 3: digitize the entire supply chain all the way through, that's 576 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 3: probably where it gets the most challenging. But I think 577 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 3: customers are increasingly demanding it, and some of our companies, 578 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 3: I won't say names, but they have digital trackers on 579 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 3: all their containers and this is all to assist their 580 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 3: customers to better track their supply chains. 581 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: We can go back in time a little bit back 582 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: to twenty twenty one twenty two, there's a lot of 583 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: poor congestions. What were the lessons learned by the industry 584 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: during that time. 585 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 3: The biggest lesson learned, I think was really just we 586 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 3: need to we need to focus in on our supply chain, 587 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 3: talk to one another and see how we can do better. 588 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 3: And I think we've made some real gains. I mean 589 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 3: those that congestion when I look back on it. You know, 590 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 3: we had over one hundred ships stranded off of the 591 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 3: Port of Los Angeles and Long Beach with containers full 592 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 3: of cargo that was coming to the United States, but 593 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 3: the port was so congested it couldn't even be offloaded. 594 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 3: That's that same container was going to farmer in the 595 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 3: heartland once it got emptied, so the farmer could put 596 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 3: their harvest in it and ship it out in the 597 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 3: opposite direction. And so, you know, people talked about adding 598 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 3: more resiliency, but the port's handled and the longshore and 599 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 3: handled almost you know, twenty five to thirty five percent 600 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 3: more cargo than they ever had before. So I think 601 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 3: what we've done is, you know, a lot of conversations 602 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 3: have taken place amongst different actors in the supply chains 603 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 3: about how to try to make those situations better. There's 604 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 3: been some actions by governments, the Department Transportations Flow program, 605 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 3: and there's a lot of the ports like Los Angeles 606 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 3: and Long Beach now have their own port software that 607 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 3: they've had designed East Coast ports as well too, that 608 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 3: are helpful to so everybody kind of knows like how 609 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 3: to better move cargo and keep fluidity. 610 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: Right, So we went back in time, Let's go forward 611 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: in time. What would define sex US for the industry 612 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: by twenty thirty is it? Is it scale, decarbonization, reliability, 613 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: or or something else that maybe I'm not thinking of now. 614 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 3: I think I think that's right. I think success is 615 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 3: keeping global trade flowing. Yeah, global trade is increasing in 616 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,879 Speaker 3: the US right now. It's not because we're struggling through 617 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 3: the through the tariffs, but in the rest of the world, 618 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 3: huge emerging markets West Africa, Asia, even Latin America, and 619 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 3: so global global trade continues to grow. And how we 620 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 3: continue to move that trade, you know, safely and securely 621 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 3: and in a low carbon way is a will will 622 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:39,760 Speaker 3: be the continuing challenges. 623 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 1: So I'm assuming, given your past history and your current position, 624 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 1: you've heard a lot of crazy stories about the maritime industry. 625 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 1: Can you share a little anecdote that's I guess fit 626 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: for for podcasts. 627 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 2: An antidote about them, like in my prior work or. 628 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: Any anything that you like, a story that it just 629 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 1: sticks it to line. They give people a flavor about 630 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: what what the maritime industry is like. 631 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 3: Sure, Well, when I was coming aboard the World Shipping Council, 632 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 3: and you know, we were we were just I guess 633 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 3: coming into the pandemic, and you know, and my friend 634 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,720 Speaker 3: who was there said, you know, this liner shipping industry, 635 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 3: it's a it moves eighty percent of the world's cargo, 636 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 3: but nobody knows it. It's never in the headlines, you know, 637 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 3: and and it just quietly goes along. 638 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 2: And does its business. 639 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 3: And and so this will be, you know, a great 640 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 3: transitional job for you. And of course we've been in 641 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 3: you know, total uncertainty, periods of panic and and and 642 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 3: on a on a going forward basis, and yet the 643 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 3: cargo still continues to move globally. And so you see 644 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 3: an industry that really connects the world. It connects the 645 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 3: first world to the third world, the third world to 646 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 3: the second world, and everything in between and and it 647 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 3: and it. 648 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 2: I think it needs better visibility. That's my job. 649 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 3: But the seafarers that are carrying this cargo, the industry 650 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 3: that's supporting this, the volume of trade they're moving, and 651 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 3: these and these connections are are really something that I 652 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,399 Speaker 3: don't think a lot of people think about when they 653 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 3: think about, you know, hitting the Amazon button and how 654 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 3: does that stuff get on their porch. 655 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 1: So when when we did the the intro in your bio, uh, 656 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 1: you know, I mentioned that you were you were at 657 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 1: the Coast Guard. I guess that's where you got your 658 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: sea legs. What what made you gravitate towards the coast 659 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,439 Speaker 1: Guard when when you were a young lad. 660 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, so my dad was in the Coast Guard, and 661 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 3: so that's how I had learned about it. And you know, 662 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 3: I I I think it was a it was a 663 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 3: great fit for me. But at the time I was, 664 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 3: I was somewhat reluctant to go to the Coast Guard academy. 665 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 3: I was living in Seattle, I had I had paid 666 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 3: my tuition deposit for the University of Washington, and uh, 667 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 3: I just when my dad told me rent was due 668 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 3: at the end of the month, and I paid my 669 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 3: own car insurance. I said, well, maybe I'll just go 670 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 3: try out this coast guard accounety for the summer and 671 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 3: it's called SWAB Summer. At started the boot camp, it's 672 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 3: pretty intense, and I said, I'll probably get kicked out 673 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 3: that I'll just give it a go. And it was 674 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,879 Speaker 3: probably the best thing I ever did was to keep going. 675 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 3: I have great friends, made tons of tons of lifetime connections, 676 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 3: and learned a lot about myself. 677 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: All right, great, And I alwould like to ask this 678 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: of my guests before I let them go. Do you 679 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: have a favorite book about the industry or leadership that's 680 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: kind of close to your heart? 681 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 2: Yeah? 682 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 3: So Mark Levinson has this book and it's it's called 683 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 3: The Box, and it's how you know container the container industry, 684 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 3: you know, made the world global trade larger and the 685 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 3: economy larger, and it's always worth the look to take 686 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 3: a you know, it's a I think he originally published 687 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,760 Speaker 3: it in twenty sixteen and then he did a revision 688 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen where he was looking at those ultra 689 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 3: large container ships I was talking about that now carry 690 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 3: up to twenty four thousand boxes and the impact of 691 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 3: what it took to get that industry off the ground 692 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 3: from you, Malcolm McClain in nineteen fifty eight to present, 693 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 3: where literally everything, the clothes on your back, the phone 694 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 3: in your hand, the watch on your wrists. Probably the 695 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 3: monitors in front of us in the studio probably all 696 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:21,320 Speaker 3: came here on a container. 697 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: All right. Great, well, Joe, it's really nice to speak 698 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: with you and really appreciate your insights. 699 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 2: So thank you so much the pleasure, Thanks for having me, and. 700 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for tuning in. If you 701 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,879 Speaker 1: liked the episode, please subscribe and leave a review. We've 702 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: lined up a number of great guests for the podcast, 703 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 1: so check back to your conversations with C suite executives, shippers, regulators, 704 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: and decision makers within the freight markets. Also, if you 705 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: want to learn more about the freight transportation markets, check 706 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 1: out our work on the Bloomberg Terminal at Big and 707 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: on social media. This is Lee Clascow signing off and 708 00:38:54,480 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: thanks for talking transports with me. Talk to you soon. Bye.